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hist_text-digest      Thursday, December 17 1998      Volume 01 : Number 195




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:59:07 -0500
From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials

My response was for the 1780 period to 1860.  And it does cover most of the
social classes.   That includes the poor to the rich.  The study of the Anglo
Society as well as the immigrant, is very extensive for the time period.
Manners, customs and morality was written about all the time.  I own several
original books of the time period which are very descriptive. These books were
the magazines of the time.  And there are re-prints of the News papers published
in several of the larger cities.   As for the Indian population, that is another
research paper.   But were we on the reservations out West before 1850?  And I
do not mean the Oklahoma trail of tears that Jackson pulled off.  The plain
Indian was still fairly free on the Great Plains.
Also very curious as to the lumber camp statement????

Linda Holley

[e-mail] wrote:

> Yes, you are right when speaking about the white well to do but not everyone
> was wealthy nor necessarily caucasians.  Some of us seems to have been on
> reservations and in lumber camps.
>
> Red Hawk
>
> [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:58:30 -0600
From: "Paul W. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: French/Indian

Not a problem in terms of finding folks interested in the F&I War in your
area.  We have full-fledged war games on occasion.  Send me a mailing
address and I will get you some literature on groups you may be interested
in assocating with in Texas.  Also, most rendezvous in our area now have a
fair number of 1700's era reenactors, so you will not be out of place.
Regards,  Paul
- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 5:47 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: French/Indian


>    Greetings to the list,
>
>    I know the Mt. Man era doesn't cover the French/Indian war, but I
>was wondering if anyone knew of a (preferably local -Dallas, TX)
>historical group that did? ...& just how forgivable is someone showing
>up to Rendezvous in the wrong era costume?  I've been to maybe 3 'vous &
>no one said anything to me, but I've posted a few questions about the
>Scottish in that time period & folks were adamant about the
>French/Indian not being part of Mt. Man era.  ...Just Curious. Thanx
>
>
>TURTLE
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:15:56 -0800
From: "Thomas W. Roberts" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2

RC, thanks for the reply.

Well, a hunting pouch is what I had in mind - grain side out - patterned after
one of the many fine examples in Madison Grant's book.  My intention was to
apply (as waterproofing) a fairly liberal amount of beeswax which would have a
darkening effect anyways.   Yes, your recommended test indicates the commercial
tanning (grey interior), hopefully someone may chime in with some chronology of
commercial tanning processes, as in was it historically done and if so, how
early.   If it's not right, I don't want to waste the effort using this stuff,
no matter how nice it feels or what it cost.  One lesson to be shared is that,
regardless of event rules which require goods to be period appropriate, one must
still verify.  For example, at a recent event I purchased a pair of woolen
gloves purported to have been hand knitted by some distant northern aunt.  Only
after arriving back home did I turn them inside-out to find a "Made in Tiawan -
15% acrylic" tag.  My naive presumption of automatic honesty for rondezvous
traders went out the window.  Sorry I've let this message wander so far off
course.

Tom

Sickler, Louis L wrote:

> Tom, Just my thoughts...
>
> 1) Since you have suede/grain surfaces, I would think it was commercially
> tanned.
>
> 2) Black color definitely means dyed, skins are naturally whitish.
>
> 3) Cut the outer edge of the leather, look at the edge. The dye doesn't
> usually penetrate all the way through. If you see a grayish-green layer in
> between the black layers, this is the distinctive color of chrome tan.
>
> 4) IMHO, dyed leather (not smoked) just looks out of place, no matter what
> color it is. The dyes used just don't come close, even the so-called Smoke
> color leather.
>
> 5) Unsuitable, I won't judge. I wouldn't make clothing out of it (it sounds
> too small anyway), maybe there's some way to make some useful, unobtrusive
> accoutrement out of it. If all else fails, make something not intended to be
> a part of your primitive attire. A good chunk of elk leather is ALWAYS
> useful to have.
>
> Hope this helps some,
>
> Hyar's Luck,
> Red Coyote
>
> > ----------
> > From:         Thomas W. Roberts
> > Reply To:     [e-mail]
> > Sent:         Wednesday, December 16, 1998 18:21
> > To:   [e-mail]
> > Subject:      Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2
> >
> > Matt & company:
> >
> > (Somewhat) along the subject of braintan, I have acquired a sizeable piece
> > of
> > elk hide.  It's over 2 ft wide and over 6 ft long, very dark (almost
> > black),
> > very soft, suede-like fuzzy on one side and leather-like smooth on the
> > other.
> > How would I go about figuring out how it was tanned?  Assume that the
> > source of
> > the hide does not know any more than I do.  Since I've never seen a black
> > elk, I
> > believe it is safe to presume that the hide has been dyed.  Does that fact
> > alone
> > render this material unsuitable for pre-1840 re-enactment?  How can I
> > become
> > confident that if I use this material, I won't get tossed out of camp?
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:38:37 -0600
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: French/Indian

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I live in the DFW metroplex and attend several rendezvous in this area.  =
The club in which I am secretary, Comanche Peak Muzzleloaders,  has a =
sizeable cadre of longhunters representing the F&I War period.  You =
would be most welcome at our meetings and at our two rendezvous....the =
weekend of the second Sunday of October and of April.  Meetings are at =
noon on every other second Sunday of the year.  We share a pot luck =
lunch, followed by a brief meeting and, generally, a shoot.  Bring =
something to eat with and your smokepole and come visit us.  Other clubs =
in the area would also make you welcome.  We tend to pay more attention =
to your attitude and what is in your heart that to which era your outfit =
represents.  =20
Cordially
Lanney Ratcliff
[e-mail]
- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 5:45 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: French/Indian


>    Greetings to the list,
>
>    I know the Mt. Man era doesn't cover the French/Indian war, but I
>was wondering if anyone knew of a (preferably local -Dallas, TX)
>historical group that did? ...& just how forgivable is someone showing
>up to Rendezvous in the wrong era costume?  I've been to maybe 3 'vous =
&
>no one said anything to me, but I've posted a few questions about the
>Scottish in that time period & folks were adamant about the
>French/Indian not being part of Mt. Man era.  ...Just Curious. Thanx
>
>
>TURTLE
>
>
>

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:14:09 -0800
From: "Munroe Crutchley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Period correct...stuff

I'm reasonably new to the list. I shoot a muzzleloader, and I like to
research the fur trade era, but I'm just beginning to get interested in the
reenactment scene. I've been reading the posts about period correct
materials and styles, and I'm trying to sort it all out, so here's my $.02
worth:

It seems to me that authentic materials are very important because some
materials just didn't exist in times past and could never be period
correct. However, when it come to styles, that's a grayer area. For
example: If I had a piece of braintan elk and was going to make a hunting
bag, I might search for examples of originals to copy, or I might just make
the bag the size, style and shape that suited me best. I might use a
closure device that I thought would work well (provided it was made of
material available in the time period) even if nobody else's bag fastened
closed like mine did.

Isn't it reasonable to think that the mountain men of that era, free souls
that they were, would have done exactly the same when they made their
hunting bags...or anything else for that matter? I'm sure that certain
styles of any item predominated, but with so many hand-made or improvised
things, it seems mighty presumptuous to reject something just because we've
never seen a picture or example of one just like it.

Like I said, I'm just a rookie (hell, I'm not even a rookie yet!), so I
would appreciate your comments. If I'm straying off course with this line
of reasoning, point me back in the right direction.

Munroe Crutchley
Grants Pass, OR
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:56:46 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buckskiner summer camps

In a message dated 12/15/98 11:58:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< My name is Joe Kierst and have been attending rendezvous for the past 3
 years.Last night my dad had the idea of a buckskinner summer camp where
 you could trap beaver,hunt,track,throw knives and tomahawks,make fires
 with flint and steel,cure hides,pack a mule,shoot blackpowder rifles
 and  more.I would start this myself but Im only 12 and school takes up
 most of my time but Im very willing to help in any way I can. >>

Hey Bub It's called the Eastern Rendezvous

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:36:55 -0800
From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period correct...stuff

Munroe,

Good question!  We can speculate and imagine and improvise, but when it's all
said and done the only thing we know for sure are those things we have
historical documentation for.  If, and I repeat IF your goal is to be
historically accurate you're pretty much stuck with that!  There are several
levels of interest represented here on this list but the predominant goal is
for historical accuracy and understanding.  Even with historical restraints
there is still room for individuality and creativity, you just have to look a
little harder to find the "primitive" way of doing it.  It will be worth the
effort!

Medicine Bear



Munroe Crutchley wrote:

> I'm reasonably new to the list. I shoot a muzzleloader, and I like to
> research the fur trade era, but I'm just beginning to get interested in the
> reenactment scene. I've been reading the posts about period correct
> materials and styles, and I'm trying to sort it all out, so here's my $.02
> worth:
>
> It seems to me that authentic materials are very important because some
> materials just didn't exist in times past and could never be period
> correct. However, when it come to styles, that's a grayer area. For
> example: If I had a piece of braintan elk and was going to make a hunting
> bag, I might search for examples of originals to copy, or I might just make
> the bag the size, style and shape that suited me best. I might use a
> closure device that I thought would work well (provided it was made of
> material available in the time period) even if nobody else's bag fastened
> closed like mine did.
>
> Isn't it reasonable to think that the mountain men of that era, free souls
> that they were, would have done exactly the same when they made their
> hunting bags...or anything else for that matter? I'm sure that certain
> styles of any item predominated, but with so many hand-made or improvised
> things, it seems mighty presumptuous to reject something just because we've
> never seen a picture or example of one just like it.
>
> Like I said, I'm just a rookie (hell, I'm not even a rookie yet!), so I
> would appreciate your comments. If I'm straying off course with this line
> of reasoning, point me back in the right direction.
>
> Munroe Crutchley
> Grants Pass, OR
> [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:54:50 -0700
From: "Matt Richards" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials

Linda, but you are talking about society people and farmers....there are
many society people and farmers like that today. But then there are the
people who need to make do with what they have and occasionally improvise.
My suggestion is that the Mtn Men were more of this ilk, as there are folks
of this ilk today.

Matt Richards
www.braintan.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:51:09 -0700
From: "Matt Richards" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Alans comments

Allen
I appreciate your spoutin off! Makes for good conversation and learning. I
disagree with you on a number of points....here goes.

1) You are right that there were 'commercial' tanneries throughout the
colonies and states...and that they predominantly bark tanned. In the
moderate amount of research I've done on this, I have found no evidence of
any other type of tanning being done in a tannery of the day.

Bark tan is not a material that has, or was, commonly used as a garment
leather in any period of time. Bark tanned leather just doesn't lend itself
well to garments (doesn't breath, is thicker and stiffer). Of course it's
excellent for shoes (in town), bags, water bottles, belts and countless
other uses. But garments ain't one of them (with the exception of armor in
the middle ages). Do you have any evidence of it being used for shirts,
jackets, breeches or the like during this era?

Bark tanneries were in fact one of the very earliest forms of
industrialization in the US, in the late 1700's. It lends itself to being
industrialized because it requires an immense quantity of bark to be
pounded, and that's the part of the process that was industrialized. Huge
toothed wheels were pulled around in a circle by horses and mules to crush
the bark.

I have never heard of any other type of tannery in the early US, if anyone
has, lets hear about it.

2.) Alan, you stated that "Most of the tanning was for heavy leather,
but a significant part went into garment leather
which in turn was mostly used for breeches and
gloves.  I believe that as the breeches went out
of fashion in the first quarter of the 19th
century, leather pantaloons were manufactured on
the same basis."

I am very curious to know of any primary sources for this information.

My understanding from primary source research is that hundreds of thousands
of hides were sent to England.....many of them already brain and smoke
tanned by Natives (such as the Creeks). As the 1700's went on, an increasing
amount of these exported deerskins were sent untanned. They were then tanned
in Europe, using an oil tanning process, and many of these were then shipped
back to the US for use in garments. Many more hides were tanned on people's
homesteads and in their backyards for use as garment leathers (this is
generally presumed to be brain tanning, though there isn't any specific
evidence I know of.....the only other real option was alum tanning).

I have never read of tanneries in the US making garment leathers in the
1700's or early 1800's, if you know of any sources for this information, I'd
love to know about it for my own studies.

3) As far as hides being smoked or unsmoked on the plains. My previous
statement was that smoking was not nearly as common of a practice amongst
Native peoples as most people presume (the common line is that white hides
were just for ceremonial use). You are right that there are many references
of tipi tops being cut up into moccasins, and that you can certainly find
pieces in museums that were smoked. You're also right that smoked buckskin
washed a great deal starts to look like it may have never been smoked.

My comments on smoking is not based on 'common knowlege' as you termed it,
its based on studying ethnographies.....the earliest accounts of brain and
smoke tanning that seem to exist. I have a bibliography of well over 100
accounts of Native tanning processes that I'm planning to put up on
braintan.com tomorrow. Admittedly, very few are pre-1840, but unfortunately
there are very few detailed accounts of Plains Indian tanning pre-1840
(exceptions being John D. Hunter's and George Catlin's).

In all due respect, lets get down to the nitty gritty of what we really
know, and what is supposition!

Matt Richards
www.braintan.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:13:12 -0700
From: "Matt Richards" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2

Thomas,
I agree with the previous comments on this piece of black leather....test it
to see if its chrome tan.

As far as black colored buckskins go, I can't say for sure that I have an
account of its presence on the Plains or in the Rockies of that era, but
black dyed brain-tan was common to Indians of many regions. The Iroquois are
most famous for this, with their black dyed bags with quill work on them.

The earliest accounts of brain tanned garments on this continent come from
DeSotos expedition and there are some great quotes about the myriad of
colors of buckskin that was worn by the Florida indians.

The most common recipe for black dyes is to mix iron shavings with a tannin
based dye (such as black walnut or oak). Indian black dyes were
traditionally made this way except instead of iron shavings they used red
ochres that have iron in them.

Matt Richards
www.braintan.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:02:24 -0700
From: "Matt Richards" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes and Smoke???

I hear ya about folks perhaps not hanging clothes in their lodges, but I'd
still argue that the reason they could get a way with not smoking all their
garments is because they were naturally exposed to smoke a lot. It doesn't
take much smoke to do it. You don't have to see them turn any color at all
to have the effects.

Matt Richards
www.braintan.com
2755 Sinclair Creek Rd
Eureka MT 59917
406-889-5532

Use your brains at www.braintan.com for natural tanning
and leather resources, online articles, reviews, tools, books
and class schedules.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes and Smoke???


>From Linda Holley...a few quick remarks......
>
>
>> From Matt Richards:
>> ......one quick note with the 'hide smoking' tradition is that many
native
>> tribes did not smoke their hides, and most only smoked hides destined to
get
>> wet & dry frequently....like moccasins and leggings.....the idea that
>> unsmoked or white hides were purely ceremonial is simply a myth, at
leastfor
>> the vast majority of Plains and western tribe
>
>I would agree with you an some parts of this.  But the many leggings I have
held
>in my hot little hands were not smoked or after all these years had lost
the
>smoke color.  Hard to tell unless you pulled apart areas of an article to
look
>inside or at a seam to see the old smoke.  After they are cleaned and
restored
>for the museum display you have to look hard.  But a lot of the leggings
never
>got wet.  Unfortunately, we really, on the most part, only see in the
museums
>the good stuff.  Who kept the work a day things?  I have seen very few of
>these.  Just the very decorated.  Someone who could comment on this is
Allen
>Chronister or Bill and Kathy Brewer, or Cathy Smith or Joe.
>
>>
>
>> However, people
>> of that era lived a very smokey lifestyle, and from my own experience, it
>> takes very little to functionally smoke a hide so that bugs stay out of
it,
>
>Has that life style been in a tipi????  I try not to smoke mine up.  And as
for
>hanging my leathers around the old lining of the tipi, not so.  They are
kept in
>their parflech containers where the fine Western powder dirt can not get
into
>it  and turn them gray looking.  Mt. St. Helen dust killed the lovely white
>color of my parfleches to a dirty gray  and one white dress was murder to
>clean.  That stuff got into everything.  Wouldn't the same thing have
happened
>back then????
>Out West dirt is hard to get out of smoked or unsmoked hides.  That is why
>Native had ways of cleaning the hide.  And not by washing too much.
Pumice
>stone is great for getting out some rubbed in dirt or white clay balls that
you
>rub into the leather.  That just mostly hides the dirt.  There is a lot of
smoke
>when cooking out side, but not in your best beaded dress or shirt.  Natives
had
>their work clothes and their dress clothes.   And you keep your tipi neat
>inside.   Nothing like having guest drop by and a dress falls on their head
or
>the fringe from a shirt keeps getting in the way of your mouth.
>
>>
>> and it can get wet and still dry soft....and this is why I believe that
so
>> many tribes did so little smoking------the hides got smoked anyway! Just
by
>> hanging out in the lodges and around fires.
>>
>
>> Matt Richards
>> www.braintan.com
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:05:12 -0700
From: "Matt Richards" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes and Smoke???

The thing of recycling tipis into clothing is something one runs across in
old accounts, but it was not the only source of clothing leather. Accounts
also state that they tanned fresh hides for clothing....

Matt Richards
www.braintan.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:13:39 -0800
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period correct...stuff

Munroe,



Munroe Crutchley wrote:

> I'm reasonably new to the list. I shoot a muzzleloader, and I like to
> research the fur trade era, but I'm just beginning to get interested in the
> reenactment scene.
>
> It seems to me that authentic materials are very important because some
> materials just didn't exist in times past and could never be period
> correct. However, when it come to styles, that's a grayer area. For
> example: If I had a piece of braintan elk and was going to make a hunting
> bag, I might search for examples of originals to copy, or I might just make
> the bag the size, style and shape that suited me best. I might use a
> closure device that I thought would work well (provided it was made of
> material available in the time period) even if nobody else's bag fastened
> closed like mine did.

You are operating with another almost 200 years of innovation to call on and
though you could probably  make your bag in a functional style with some
historical safety, your innovative closure would likely date it to the 20th
Century. So the bag wouldn't be historically correct.

> Isn't it reasonable to think that the mountain men of that era, free souls
> that they were, would have done exactly the same when they made their
> hunting bags...or anything else for that matter? I'm sure that certain
> styles of any item predominated, but with so many hand-made or improvised
> things, it seems mighty presumptuous to reject something just because we've
> never seen a picture or example of one just like it.

They may have been "free spirits" but they still were limited to how things
were usually done in their time. Not to how things might be done in another 50
or 100 or 200 years. Do you see what I am getting at? In living history
recreation, the integrity of your recreating dictates that you reject what
hasn't been documented. You are living in a much more innovative age too. Your
inventiveness and Mine too, must be set aside if we are going to play the game
the way it is supposed to be played. On the other hand there is nothing that
says you have to be authentic but then you should not expect to fit into events
where the other participants are concerned about the historical reliability of
their kit and caboodle. (is that a word?) It is a word, my spell checker just
corrected my original spelling as not being historically correct.

> Like I said, I'm just a rookie (hell, I'm not even a rookie yet!), so I
> would appreciate your comments. If I'm straying off course with this line
> of reasoning, point me back in the right direction.

Hey brother, we are all rookies or pilgrims in this thing. I hope I have gotten
my point across in such a way that you now feel you are back on the right
track. I remain....

YMOS
Tom, aka. Capt. Lahti'

>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:26:21 -0700
From: "Matt Richards" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: .Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...

Capt. Lahti,

I like what you had to say, and I have to agree that I don't really know
what period in Kit Carson's life this jacket is from......and I'd love to
find out.

As far as wearing non-period garments to events such as Michelle's
dress......I can't say we've never done it (I think she did wear it once at
the Rocky Mtn Natls), but much of our buckskin clothing isn't intended for
Rendezvous' as we wear it all of the time, so we mostly make what-ever
pleases us.....and then have period garments particularly for re-enacting.

Matt Richards
www.braintan.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:25:46 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco in Cali.

By "Cali." do you mean California.  If so, you' might be surprised by how many
mountain men came to the Godlen State.  Upwards of 24 brigades entered the
state between 1826 and  the early 1840's.  Thus, your tobacco may not have to
be adjusted too much as they were supplied primarily from rendezvous,
Taos/Santa Fe or the HBC posts, primarily Fort Vancouver.  If North Central
California is your new state, contact me offline, we can't be too far apart.
I'll provide you with a lsit of brigades to get you started in researching the
mountian men of this region.  If others on this list want to see the list of
brigades, let me know and I'll post it here as well.

Jim Hardee, AMM#1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] FAX
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:19:33 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps

The book mentioned earlier, "Firearms, Traps and Tools of the Mountain Men,"
by Carl Russell, (Alfred Knopf, NY, 1967) is good.  Also, try "The Steel Trap
in Norht America," by Richard Gerstell (Stackpole Books, Harrisburg, PA,
1985).  While not focusing as exclusively on the fur trade era as Russel,
Gerstell provides a very good overall history of traps.  Unfortunately, it's
out of print and may be harder to access.  Also, the Museum of the Fur Trade
in Chadron NB, has a marvelous collection of traps from the period.

Jim Hardee, AMM#1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
[phone] (H)
(530 283-3330 (W)
[phone] FAX
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:24:37 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kit Carson's Coat

Kit Carson lived until 1868.  Before using the coat you describe as
justification for conclusion regarding the mountain man era, be sure the coat
is from the right time period of Carson's life.  The museum could probably
tell you the approximate date they have placed on the coat.  This same caution
applies to any artifact purporting to belong to a mountain man.

Jim Hardee, AMM#1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] FAX
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:25:39 +0000
From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps

Firearms, traps & tools of the Mountain Men, by Carl P. Russell ISBN
0-8263-0465-6   hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:00:05 -0800
From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps

It is available at Amazon with 24 hours shipping at $13.56 paperback issue.
Gail
=========================================
- -----Original Message-----
From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps


>Firearms, traps & tools of the Mountain Men, by Carl P. Russell ISBN
>0-8263-0465-6   hardtack
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:22:52 -0800
From: "Munroe Crutchley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period correct...stuff

> Hey brother, we are all rookies or pilgrims in this thing. I hope I have
gotten
> my point across in such a way that you now feel you are back on the right
> track. I remain....

Thanks Capt,

Our 150 years of experience is something I hadn't thought about. I see what
you are getting at that historical accuracy has to line up with the
historical records we have to go by.

I appreciate the guidance.

Munroe Crutchley
Grants Pass, OR
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:18:57 -0800
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: .Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...

Matt,

Thanks, Sounds like you are playing the game. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Matt Richards wrote:

> Capt. Lahti,
>
> I like what you had to say, and I have to agree that I don't really know
> what period in Kit Carson's life this jacket is from......and I'd love to
> find out.
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:04:19 +0000
From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials

Dear Matt,  I have an autographed copy of your book, deerskins into
buckskins,  I hope it's worth a fortune someday :).  I am an amateur
tanner.  I've done several hides, and am finally getting to where I am
satisfied with my results.  Search for American Mountain Men, and you
will find Dean Rudy's Web Site for the AMM.  I've been rendezvousing
since '82.  I've wasted so much money on what I thought was "right",
because I saw that 'cool dude' wearing it at Rdvs..  Since I've started
my 'Pilgrim's Journey' I've learned a few things about clothing, and I've
a lot more to learn.  If you could attend an AMM event, or find AMM
members at a 'Voo, you'd probably notice a substantial difference in
clothing- compared to an average Rdvs.. You'd probably notice a wide
variety of styles, also.  Most of my compadres look like greasy, trail
worn Mtn. Men.  This is due to the fact that they spend most of their
free time "on the Trail" , rather than lounging around a Porky Doo, I
mean Rendezvous. (Just Kidding Guys, don't get your hackles up).  For a
lot of us the goal is to have all brain tanned clothing, unfortunately
it's hard to make, and/or hard to pay for.  As for me, I portray a Mtn.
Man of limited means.  Hence, I dress plainly with an eye for the
Utilitarian. I believe this is a 'safe' persona.   I keep my fixin's
plain and simple.  I don't 'shine' like a cock o' the walk, but I believe
that I portray a more accurate, realistic Mtn. Man.  Are you in Montana,
where your book is published?  If so, there is an AMM party there called
The Upper Missouri Outfit (UMO).  I'll bet they would be glad to share
their thoughts and research with you concerning authenticity, etc....   I
enjoy your postings, and look forward to further correspondence.
Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 02:35:17 -0600
From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials

   >for the occasion.  The morals, mental attitudes toward sex, women
   >and men are very different today than then.   It did affect what
   >they wore, when and how. Must go....have to throw that "T-shirt" on
   >for the formal dinner I am going to.  Now,  do I wear the one with
   >the Santa or the one with the blinking lights.   And did I mention
   >pants. Linda Holley
Linda,I would choose the one with the blinking lights!!!!! Seriously,In most
of my research I've seen evidence of the slaves to fashion in the 18th and
early (well most of)19th centuries.
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

If a tin whistle is made out of tin,what is a fog horn made out of?

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 02:35:22 -0600
From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2

BIG CUT...
   >4) IMHO, dyed leather (not smoked) just looks out of place, no
   >matter what color it is. The dyes used just don't come close, even
   >the so-called Smoke color leather.
   >5) Unsuitable, I won't judge. I wouldn't make clothing out of it
   >(it sounds too small anyway).
BUT I have seen 18th century Huron centerseam moccasins that were dyed black
with what I later learned was VERY concentrated black walnut juice(it
started out when I tried it with about 5 gallons of walnut hull juiceboiled
down to about 1 1/2 gallon). Now there are period correct native tanned and
dyed moccasins that show that dyed leather was made by natives and used on
occasion. I will not say that it was used all the time,but to arbitrarily
claim that ANY leather that has been dyed is not period correct or usable in
a rendevous or historical reenactment is the equivilant of saying that ALL
MOUNTAIN MEN CARRIED ONLY .50 CALIBER HAWKINS.
Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well

If a tin whistle is made out of tin,what is a fog horn made out of?

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #195
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