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hist_text-digest      Tuesday, November 24 1998      Volume 01 : Number 180




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 18:25:12 -0600
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Steve Anderson" <[e-mail]>: How Specs Live Forever (http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~mdbrown2/specs.htm)

The show was called "Connections".  An Old Timers Disease breakthrough!!
Lanney
- -----Original Message-----
From: Lanney Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Sunday, November 22, 1998 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Steve Anderson" <[e-mail]>: How Specs Live
Forever (http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~mdbrown2/specs.htm)


>That is remarkable information.  Reminds me of the PBS show a few years
back
>that traced similar strings from antiquity to modern times.  A lot more
such
>examples exist than one would suppose.  Thanks for sharing.  I can't think
>of the name of the show for the life of me.  Old Timers Disease once again
>raises its ugly head.
>Lanney Ratcliff
>-----Original Message-----
>From: michael pierce <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>;
>[e-mail] <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
><[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
><[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
><[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
><[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
><[e-mail]>; [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Sunday, November 22, 1998 11:26 AM
>Subject: MtMan-List: "Steve Anderson" <[e-mail]>: How Specs Live
>Forever (http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~mdbrown2/specs.htm)
>
>
>>just got this in from a friend of mine that knew i liked historical
>>background and thought i would share it---
>>
>>it is a bit of historical information on why a waggon and a train are the
>>same gage---in reality the us standard gage is 54 3/4 in and is larger
>>than the european gage----some good information to store in your files
>>for future reference---this may cause the same palaber as the bit on the
>>upstream and the downstream of a river---
>>
>>let the discussion begin----
>>
>>HAWK
>>MICHAEL PIERCE
>>1-813-771-1815
>>E-MAIL ADDRESS==[e-mail]
>>--------- Begin forwarded message ----------
>>From: "Steve Anderson" <[e-mail]>
>>To: "Mike Pierce" <[e-mail]>
>>Subject: How Specs Live Forever
>>(http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~mdbrown2/specs.htm)
>>Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 21:47:21 -0600
>>Message-ID: <003c01be15d3$722babe0$0ac0a5d0@blkpowdr>
>>
>>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>>
>>------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE1598.84B1A700
>>Content-Type: text/plain;
>> charset="iso-8859-1"
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>>
>>How Specs Live Forever
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>-------
>>
>>The US Standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet =
>>8.5 inches. That's an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used? =
>>Because that's the way they built them in England, and the U.S. =
>>railroads were built by English expatriates. Why did the English build =
>>them like that? Because the first rail lines were built by the same =
>>people who built the pre-railroad tramways, and that's the gauge they =
>>used.=20
>>
>>Why did they use that gauge then? Because the people who built the =
>>tramways used the same jigs and tools that they used for building =
>>wagons, which used that wheel spacing. Why did the wagons use that odd =
>>wheel spacing? Well, if they tried to use any other spacing the wagons =
>>would break on some of the old, long distance roads, because that's the =
>>spacing of the old wheel ruts.=20
>>
>>So who built these old rutted roads? The first long distance roads in =
>>Europe were built by Rome for the benefit of their legions. The roads =
>>have been used ever since. And the ruts? The initial ruts, which =
>>everyone else had to match for fear of destroying their wagons, were =
>>made by Roman war chariots and they all had identical wheel spacings.=20
>>
>>Thus, we have the answer to the original questions. The United States =
>>standard railroad gauge of 4 feet 8.5 inches derives from the original =
>>specification for a Roman war chariot. Specs and bureaucracies seem to =
>>live forever, so the next time you are handed a specification and wonder
>>=
>>what horse's ass came up with it, you may be exactly right, because the =
>>Roman chariots were made to be just wide enough to accommodate the =
>>ass-ends of two war horses.=20
>>
>>-Unknown=20
>>
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>-------
>>
>>Thought you might enjoy this...Steve
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>-------
>>=20
>>
>>------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE1598.84B1A700
>>Content-Type: text/html;
>> charset="iso-8859-1"
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
>><HTML>
>><HEAD>
>>
>><META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
>>http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>How Specs Live Forever</TITLE><BASE=20
>>href=3Dhttp://www.students.uiuc.edu/~mdbrown2/specs.htm>
>><META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
>></HEAD>
>><BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
>><DIV> </DIV>
>><CENTER>
>><H1>How Specs Live Forever</H1></CENTER>
>><HR>
>>
>><P>The US Standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet
>>=
>>8.5=20
>>inches. That's an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used? =
>>Because=20
>>that's the way they built them in England, and the U.S. railroads were =
>>built by=20
>>English expatriates. Why did the English build them like that? Because =
>>the first=20
>>rail lines were built by the same people who built the pre-railroad =
>>tramways,=20
>>and that's the gauge they used.=20
>><P>Why did they use that gauge then? Because the people who built the =
>>tramways=20
>>used the same jigs and tools that they used for building wagons, which =
>>used that=20
>>wheel spacing. Why did the wagons use that odd wheel spacing? Well, if =
>>they=20
>>tried to use any other spacing the wagons would break on some of the =
>>old, long=20
>>distance roads, because that's the spacing of the old wheel ruts.=20
>><P>So who built these old rutted roads? The first long distance roads in
>>=
>>Europe=20
>>were built by Rome for the benefit of their legions. The roads have been
>>=
>>used=20
>>ever since. And the ruts? The initial ruts, which everyone else had to =
>>match for=20
>>fear of destroying their wagons, were made by Roman war chariots and =
>>they all=20
>>had identical wheel spacings.=20
>><P>Thus, we have the answer to the original questions. The United States
>>=
>>
>>standard railroad gauge of 4 feet 8.5 inches derives from the original=20
>>specification for a Roman war chariot. Specs and bureaucracies seem to =
>>live=20
>>forever, so the next time you are handed a specification and wonder what
>>=
>>horse's=20
>>ass came up with it, you may be exactly right, because the Roman =
>>chariots were=20
>>made to be just wide enough to accommodate the ass-ends of two war =
>>horses.=20
>><P>-Unknown=20
>><HR>
>><BR><U><FONT color=3D#800080>Thought you might enjoy =
>>this...Steve</FONT></U>
>><HR>
>> </BODY></HTML>
>>
>>------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE1598.84B1A700--
>>
>>
>>--------- End forwarded message ----------
>>
>>___________________________________________________________________
>>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 18:55:30 -0700
From: "Ron" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: On PBS

Hello the camp!

Fronter:Legends of the Old Northwest

Will air on PBS again Friday the 27th at 8 o'clock eastern, in case you
missed it last time. It covers Rogers Rangers, Pontiac, Tecumseh, and
Rogers brother. 4 hours total.

Ron


Lewis Fork Free Trappers
<http://www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/Trappers.html>
Email <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 20:41:10 -0600
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #178

I am not sure what happened to my post about caps.  I think I must have
sent it off into space or something.
Here it is again...
I made an impulse buy of some MAGNUM percussion caps made by CCI.
I don't know what caused me to do this.  It was strictly impulse, which
accounts for about 50+% of my purchases.
 Now that I have them, I am wondering if I should use these.  With the
inlines coming out I got to thinking that maybe these were just for
them.  I really do not want to damage my nipple or hammer or have any
kind of a big surprise on the line or in the woods.
Does anyone out there know the story on these MAGNUM CAPS?

Thanks again in advance.

Pilgrim JD

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 07:42:26 -0700
From: "Scott Singer - \"Spinner\"" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On PBS

>Fronter:Legends of the Old Northwest
>
>Will air on PBS again Friday the 27th at 8 o'clock eastern, in case you
PBS? It was on the History Channel last time.

>missed it last time. It covers Rogers Rangers, Pontiac, Tecumseh, and
>Rogers brother. 4 hours total.

Roger's brother?  The final episode was on George Rodgers Clark. No relation
that I know of.

- -------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
     http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site
     http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 07:43:12 -0700
From: "Scott Singer - \"Spinner\"" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On PBS

>Fronter:Legends of the Old Northwest
>
>Will air on PBS again Friday the 27th at 8 o'clock eastern, in case you
PBS? It was on the History Channel last time.

>missed it last time. It covers Rogers Rangers, Pontiac, Tecumseh, and
>Rogers brother. 4 hours total.

Roger's brother?  The final episode was on George Rodgers Clark. No relation
that I know of.

- -------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
     http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site
     http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:40:41 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: MtMan-List: Deer hunting

Well.............. My first rifle was a Lyman Great Plains 54, Shot an elk,
moose, antelope, several deer with it. Stock cracked and had it replaced.
Have a Hatfield 36, shoots nice, killed many bunnies and squirrels with it.
Traded a buffalo robe for a Leman full stock 54, a very nice rifle, haven't
hunted a lot with it yet.
My 12 year old son, just shot his first deer with a 54, missed one at 45
yards and then...........dropped one in the liver at 110 yards. I don't
reccomend shooting a deer that far. But it was one hellava shot. I paced
off the distance just to be sure. Gee, I was proud of the boy. I had gotten
my first deer with a 50 many years ago and told him, he had to do the same.
Even if just for the memory.
As for types of guns per people, shoot what you can afford. I have more
admiration for a guy shooting a CVA very well, than a guy who stands around
with an oringinal and has never hunted with it and shoots poorly.
Personally, I like a hand built rifle, CVA's  and others modern looking
rifles, just don't look right nor feel right. But to each his own. I would
not turn down a hunting partner due the rifle his carries, but rather his
attitude carries more weight than the balls in his bag.
Good reading comments though there boys,
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 18:48:10 +0000
From: Laura Rugel Glise <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Osborne Russell

I am almost finished with my novel, Across the Seasons.  Historical
fiction including Osborne Russell and the Rendezvous of 1838 on the Wind
River.

1.  Any objections to referring to Russell's firearm as his
"mountain rifle?"

2.  Anyone know how to get in touch with Whitney "Blanket"
    Hibbard, Upper Missouri Outfit?  Would like to discuss his
    retracing of Russell's ride to the "dividing of the waters."

3.    I realize AMM is for men only.  May women submit articles to
    The Tomahawk & Long Rifle for publication?

Appreciate the help.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 17:14:50 -0700
From: "Ron" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On PBS

You're right Spinner, I musta had a brain cramp! (again). <G>

Ron


> Roger's brother?  The final episode was on George Rodgers Clark. No
relation
> that I know of.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
> WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
>      http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
> Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site
>      http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 17:22:47 +0100
From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Osbourne Russell

1.  I can't recall a period usage of the term
"mountain rifle" but there may be one.  In the
commercial tradeof the 1830s, rifles were
generally referred to by their pattern:  Lancaster
or just "American" for Pa. pattern guns, and
"English pattern" or "Scroll guard" for the
English pattern guns.  Another way to refer to
guns was by their maker, such as "Henry."

2.  This is not a good time to talk to Whit.  He
just had a death in the family.  But, I was on the
same ride up Pacific Creek to the parting of the
waters in the Bridger-Teton wilderness a few years
ago.  What do you want to know?
Contact me off list if you want.
Allen Chronister

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:59:46 -0700
From: "Scott Singer - \"Spinner\"" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On PBS

>You're right Spinner, I musta had a brain cramp! (again). <G>
>
>Ron


I see we share the same affliction, Ron!  <g>

Cheers,
- -------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
     http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site
     http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 02:59:02 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Steve Anderson" <[e-mail]>: How Specs Live Forever ...

a friend of mine is a train buff-
he says it goes back to roman days,  due to chariots.  The roman roads were
all rutted from chariot wheels set at the same width.  Whether all roman
chariots started out the same `gage' or not, I don't know..... but, one way or
another, all chariots did end up the same width.  As the roman empire
expanded, thus also the chariot roads.

Long after the fall, don't ya know, wagons were made to fit the old roads,
down the years, until the first steam wagons, then trains.  Kinda makes ya
wonder what effect the chariots of our empire will have on our descendants.

pappy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:56:01 -0600
From: "S.M.Despain-1" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: T and  LR

How does one get copies of subscriptions to T and LR?

Matt Despain

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:01:14 -0600
From: "S.M.Despain-1" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Women and the AMM

A question for AMM members.  Are women part of the organization or is it
a men's only group?  And if women are included can they move up in the
ranks by puting on rendezvous and gatherings as men do?  If anyone would
like to extrapolate on this matter or anything about women and the AMM
please feel free to do so.


Matt Despain
University of Oklahoma

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:07:10 -0600
From: "S.M.Despain-1" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Jeremiah Johnston Reburial

A couple months ago there was discussion about Johnston and his reburial
at Cody, Wyo.  There were mentions of some articles done on it in T &
LR.  If anyone has citations or could run me copies of these articles I
would gladley pay copy and mailing costs.  Also, there was mention that
the AMM, who I belive was heavily involved in the reburial, put out a
pamphlet on the event.  If this is true I would be interested in a copy
of this document too.  If anyone can help me with these I would be
greatful.

Thanks,

Matt Despain
University of Oklahoma
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:51:32 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing

    . . . just curious, do the majority of present day MtMen sew or purchase your
replica MtMan clothing?  Which pieces, specifically, do you sew and/or
regularly purchase?

Thank you.

Regards,
Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer   Sewing Design Company
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:55:52 -0600
From: WIDD-Tim Austin (WIDD-Tim Austin) <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing -Reply

I sew all the articles of clothing that I make for myself.  I hand sew them
with real thread, not man made materials, or real deer or elk sinew.

Tim Austin

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:30:30 -0700
From: Longtrail <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Women and the AMM

I am a 47 year old female who has been "affiliated" with AMM since the late
70's
The American Mountain Man association is a MEN ONLY organization.    As far
as membership goes.
As far as the participation of women in the group, I have found that most
of the men welcome women to participate in rendezvous.
Women are encouraged to send articles for the Tomahawk and Longrifle.
Can participate in raffles as well as donate prizes.
Are respected for their abilities and hard work.
As far as going up in rank?  Well it is all a matter of a woman's state of
mind.  I feel that I can "get on the ground" or do just about anything
required a man to do.  Most men who know me also have as much confidence in
me.  Can I set a primitive camp?  YOu bet.  Accoutrements ok?  Yep.  Trap a
beaver? Sure
Shoot a deer with a flintlock, gut it, strip it and dry it? Certainly.
Several years ago a young woman  who had also been affiliated with the
group via her father, tried to force her way into the group.  A "equality"
trip if you will.
I couldn't help but realize that even thought she may had been affifiated
with the group for many years she hadn't seen the spirit of the group.  She
hadn't a clue as to the beauty of the group.  The naturalness of the men
only theme.  She hadn't learned to respect the men and what they wanted.
I have seen the spirit of the group, and I respect the group and feel it
should always continue a men only group.

              Nuffsaid                   Ltsb.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:44:30 -0700
From: "Sickler, Louis L" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing

Andrea,

I can't speak for everyone, but I make every item of clothing I use. Pants,
shirts, coats, mocassins, knife sheathes, shooting bags, you name it. I
learned how to tan my own leather because I couldn't (wouldn't) afford to
buy the ugly "gold" elk & deer hides I wanted.

I always make a 'pattern', no matter what I'm making. If it turns out right,
I save it. If it doesn't, or if I'm making a 'one-of-a-kind' item for
someone, I destroy it.

About the only thing I buy is cotton/linen shirts, but that's kind of
fitting, isn't it.

Hyar's luck,
Red Coyote

> ----------
> From:     [e-mail]
> Reply To:     [e-mail]
> Sent:     Tuesday, November 24, 1998 12:51
> To:     [e-mail]
> Subject:     MtMan-List: MtMan clothing
>
>     . . . just curious, do the majority of present day MtMen sew or
> purchase your
> replica MtMan clothing?  Which pieces, specifically, do you sew and/or
> regularly purchase?
>
> Thank you.
>
> Regards,
> Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer   Sewing Design Company
> [e-mail]
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 17:40:03 -0700
From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: T and  LR

CHIEF CLERK TERRY AVERY
16630 PENNY AVE.
SAND LAKE, MI  49343
[phone]

CAN GIVE YOU NEEDED INFORMATION YOU REQUESTED.

- ---------------------------
- -----Original Message-----
From: S.M.Despain-1 <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 11:57 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: T and LR


>How does one get copies of subscriptions to T and LR?
>
>Matt Despain
>
>

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #180
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