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hist_text-digest       Friday, October 16 1998       Volume 01 : Number 156




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 20:52:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cannons amongst John Works Snake Expedition 31-32

On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, Sam Keller wrote:
> Are you sure that you have the right date?

> ---Lee Newbill <[e-mail]> wrote:
> > Came across a reference about a cannon bursting during a skirmish
> > between John Work's Snake expedition and a band from the Blackfeet
> tribe.
> >
> > Date is about Jan 30 1932.

Finally found the info again....

"At break of day on January 30, the camp was attacked by a strong party of
three hundred Blackfeet, who were repulsed after hard fighting.  The
cannon burst at the third discharge, but fortunately no one was injured."

The quote is taken from a mid 30's master thesis, and refers to Work's
1831-1832 Snake expedition.

Additionally, in the same paper.....

Found a reference to a "brass three pounder" taken on expedition by
Alexander Ross in 1824... so, I am now suspecting it is one and the same
gun.... now I'm just curious as to what a brass three pounder looks like
and how was it moved through the rough country...  I know the US army in
later years would dissasemble thier mountain howitzers and pack 'em on
mules.... did the boys from HBC do the same?

Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 00:04:14 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antoine Robidoux

John,

I posted the following to your personal e-mail but it bounced back.

How's the house?  Surely the roof's on by now.  Will you make it by winter?
It's getting closer and closer?  What else is new?  All's well here.

Saw your post about Robidoux.  There's a biography of him in Hafen's Mountain
Men and the Fur Trade, Vol. VIII, (written by David Weber) as well as another
dozen or so entries throughout the series.  David Weber writes quite a bit
about him in "The Taos Trapper."  (By the way, Weber is the keynote speaker
for the fur trade symposium coming up in Stockton this April) He crops up here
and there in various other sources but those two may be the most extensive,
especially the Hafen article.   Let me know if you want copies of these.  If
the list turns up anyting that looks goo, let me know and if I've got it on
the shelf, I can send copies of that too.

Jim  Hardee

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 00:04:12 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Charles Courtin??

Kurt,

As David Mullen said, Hafen's "Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of the Far
West," Vol. III conatins a biography of David Thompson that mentions the same
infor regarding Courter as the Nisbit inof you already have.  This article is
by Alvin Josephy and the paragraph footnotes another book by Josephy titled
"The Nez Perce Indians and the Opening of the Northwest," page 46, and 660-63.
It is not clear that this refernece pertains to Courter but if your local
library has the Nez Perce book, you may find a lead.

Moulton's "The Journals of Lews and Clark" also mentions Courtin in Vol. 2
(very briefly) and 3.  Moulton cites Donald Jackson's "The letters of  the
Lewis and Clark Expedition," pg. 2 & 437n; Ernest Osgood's "The Field notes of
Captain William Clark," pg. 136n & 6; and the same Josephy "Nez Perce" book
mentioned above.  Moulton refers to Courtin "apparently" reaching the Three
Forks and western Montana.  Vol. 8 of Moulton has a fair amount more on pages
158n, 288, 289n, 360 and 360n but the same references as above are noted.
Looks like Lewis and Clark ran into him on the way west (Sept 14 and 15, 1804)
and several times on the way back.

Jim Hardee, AMM#1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] FAX
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:08:35 +0000
From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Waxing gourds

Gail, I do not fill the gourds all the way.  I pour some in and swish it
around, repeat until satisfied.  There was a letter in hereawhile ago,
and it sounded like the fellow filled, then emptied.     Hardtack

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:32:31 -0700
From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antoine Robidoux

Jim:
    Sorry for butting in but can you give more details on the fur trade
event in Stockton next April that you mentioned? Is this the same event that
was in Pinedale, WY couple years ago?
Gail Carbiener
=============================================
- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 9:05 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antoine Robidoux


>John,
>
>I posted the following to your personal e-mail but it bounced back.
>
>How's the house?  Surely the roof's on by now.  Will you make it by winter?
>It's getting closer and closer?  What else is new?  All's well here.
>
>Saw your post about Robidoux.  There's a biography of him in Hafen's
Mountain
>Men and the Fur Trade, Vol. VIII, (written by David Weber) as well as
another
>dozen or so entries throughout the series.  David Weber writes quite a bit
>about him in "The Taos Trapper."  (By the way, Weber is the keynote speaker
>for the fur trade symposium coming up in Stockton this April) He crops up
here
>and there in various other sources but those two may be the most extensive,
>especially the Hafen article.   Let me know if you want copies of these.
If
>the list turns up anyting that looks goo, let me know and if I've got it on
>the shelf, I can send copies of that too.
>
>Jim  Hardee

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 01:51:03 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ceran St. Vrain

YEP thats me........I have been researching the St Vrains and Ceran for the
family for about two years now.  Been hitting St. Louis, all over New Mexico
and Colorado.....hope to go to New Orleans......email me at [e-mail]
and let me know what you are looking for.  I have a reprint of Paul St Vrains
article :)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 08:00:24 -0500
From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: North American Voyageur Council

For any one interested in the North American Voyageur Council, our group
is hoisting the fall gathering.  I have put to gether a webpage at my
site, URL is:

http://reality.sgi.com/jal/navc/navc.html

Jim

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
  /`-_    Jim Lindberg                 |Les Voyageurs du Val du Chippewa
 { .   }/ 724 East Grand Avenue        |Flambeau Rivere Voyageurs
  \    /  Chippewa Falls, WI 54729 USA |Sweete water and light laughter,
   |___|  http://reality.sgi.com/jal/  |Until we next meete.  Go Gentle.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 08:56:36 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Waxing gourds

>To all:
>    Do I understand you correctly that when you wax gourds that you "fill it
>up to the top" with melted wax, then pour it out, repeat a couple of times?
>Rather than swirl the wax.
>Gail Carbiener

I've done it both ways, but I found that filling and pouring assures that
all inner surfaces are covered.  Rotate as you pour so you cover all the
inner surfaces near the opening.  I usually fill and pour three times.

That's the method that works for me.

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 08:01:16 -0600
From: "Sickler, Louis L" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: re: MtMan-list

Terry,

Yes, freezing them is okay. I've done that if I buy the brains and =
can't use
them right away. Haven't seen any difference from tanning solution made =
from
fresh brains.

I don't know about the shelf-life (freezer-life) of prepared brain =
solution.
I've always used it as soon as it cools. I've heard others say reuse =
the
solution, but I don't do more than one hide at a time, and at sometimes
great intervals, so I don't save the solution once I've softened the =
hide
sufficiently.

Hope this helps a little

Red Coyote

> ----------
> From:     Terry Landis
> ok real quick like, if you brain tan with cow brains can you freeze =
them
> before use? also how long will a tan sol. keep?
> =A0Terry Landis
>=20

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 03:18:38 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Scottish

- --------------427ACD31FC5B59E77CBEDE04
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

PDS Golf Course wrote:

> John,
> I'd like to know more on the Scots in the Fur Trade as well.  Can you keep
> me up on what you find, I'll do the same.
> Jon Bollin  AMM #1639



Sure thing.  Heh.  Can't go wrong with an AMM on your side.  Anyway, so far
some of the more helpful/reliable stuff I've found includes:

    Sketchbook 56, Vol. I  -  Rogers Rangers
        By: Ted Spring
    Sketchbook 56, Vol. III - The Highlanders & provincial Rangers
        By: Ted Spring
    The Scots
        By:  Linda Byrd
    The Scottish Clans & Their Tartans.  1896.  41st ed.
        Johnston & Bacon Ltd.  Edinburgh & London.
        (I've only been able to find this one at libraries, but it's worth a
read.)

    The Men-At-Arms series has Highland Clansman 1689-1746 & 18th Century
Highlanders, it's a little early for the period, but they still have some
relevant information & some great illustrations.

    The History Channel did a movie entitled Battle of the Clans ...I think.
Most of the show covered early eras & the Jacobite revolution, but it was
still a great show.

    & I've found a few web sites that were pretty good, but they didn't have
anything more than general information, or stuff that I already knew.  If
you're interested in the addresses, let me know & I'll see if I can find them.

    ...I was beginning to think I was the only guy interested in this
subject.  Nice to know there's other folks out there that're interested too.


    John David Scott
        ...or as everyone except my mother calls me,
    Turtle





- --------------427ACD31FC5B59E77CBEDE04
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
PDS Golf Course wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>John,
<BR>I'd like to know more on the Scots in the Fur Trade as well.
Can you keep
<BR>me up on what you find, I'll do the same.
<BR>Jon Bollin  AMM #1639</BLOCKQUOTE>


<P>Sure thing.  Heh.  Can't go wrong with an AMM on your side.
Anyway, so far some of the more helpful/reliable stuff I've found includes:
<BR>
<BR>    Sketchbook 56, Vol. I  -  Rogers Rangers
<BR>        By: Ted Spring
<BR>    Sketchbook 56, Vol. III - The Highlanders &
provincial Rangers
<BR>        By: Ted Spring
<BR>    The Scots
<BR>        By:  Linda Byrd
<BR>    The Scottish Clans & Their Tartans.  1896.
41st ed.
<BR>        Johnston & Bacon Ltd.
Edinburgh & London.
<BR>        (I've only been able to
find this one at libraries, but it's worth a read.)

<P>    The Men-At-Arms series has <U>Highland Clansman 1689-1746</U>
& <U>18th Century Highlanders</U>, it's a little early for the period,
but they still have some relevant information & some great illustrations.

<P>    The History Channel did a movie entitled <U>Battle
of the Clans</U> ...I think.  Most of the show covered early eras
& the Jacobite revolution, but it was still a great show.

<P>    & I've found a few web sites that were pretty
good, but they didn't have anything more than general information, or stuff
that I already knew.  If you're interested in the addresses, let me
know & I'll see if I can find them.

<P>    ...I was beginning to think I was the only guy interested
in this subject.  Nice to know there's other folks out there that're
interested too.
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>    John David Scott
<BR>        ...or as everyone except
my mother calls me,
<BR>    Turtle
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR> </HTML>

- --------------427ACD31FC5B59E77CBEDE04--

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 07:28:47 -0700
From: Longtrail <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: re: MtMan-list

>     ok real quick like, if you brain tan with cow brains can you freeze
>them  before use? also how long will a tan sol. keep?  Terry Landis

Yes you can freeze the brains.  We buy ours in bulk at $1.69 per pound.
They are packaged individually which makes it convenient.  Also keep in
mind that once you have started your hide you can also freeze it during any
stage and take it out and start up again at that same step.   Longtrail

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:58:25 +0000
From: Joseph Miller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ceran St. Vrain

Hi Emma,
Saw you have been researching St. Vrains.

On my  http://www.Colorado-Mall.com  web site in the Historical Section
I have a spot reserved for the St. Vrain Fort which was located about 20
miles from my residence.

If you have any info on it and would like to write up an article or send
me the info to write about the fort I sure would appreciate it. Then I
could get that fort section up and running.

Thanks in advance,
Joe Miller


- --
Friends of Bill W. and Dr. Bob, Welcome!
To be Happy, Joyous and Free
Joseph Miller, Webmaster
http://www.Colorado-Mall.com
For information on leasing mall space
E-mail: [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:14:09 -0700
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Waxing gourds

Gail,
My 2 bits on this, I've had some small experience growing and making water
gourds and I found years ago that one needs to be careful that your bees
wax/parafin is hot enough when it goes into the gourd to penetrate the walls
of the gourd a bit. It is also important that you not get too much wax
inside or you run the risk of the wax pealing off, which you will know is
happening if you have little sheets of wax coming out in the water. It is
VERY IMPORTANT to get all the inner flesh out of the gourd before you
proceed with the waxing since this can be the cause of, and impart the bad
taste that can develop in some gourds.

When I am removing the flesh, after shaking out as much seed etc. as
possible, I fill the gourd with water for a day or so until the flesh starts
to get a bit slimy and then the flesh seems to flush out quit completely.
It's kind of like hairing hides and you have to be about as careful to avoid
spoilage as you would doing hides, not quit but almost as careful. I then
will let the gourd dry very thoroughly and proceed with the waxing. A couple
of good washes with hot wax seems to do the trick. It is not necessary to
fill the gourd with wax, maybe less than a quarter full will do. Pour in the
hot wax, put in the cork and CAREFULLY rotate the gourd to coat all inner
surfaces. Hot wax may try to squirt out around the cork thus the caution to
be carful. Finally pour off the wax back into your heating container to be
used on the next one.

A final couple of safety points. Wax can be harmful to your lungs,
especially Bee's wax so it is a good idea to wear a dust mask or better yet
do the wax heating job out side so as not to concentrate the fumes that will
be given off. Use gloves, let the gourd get very hot and don't let the wax
puddle in the bottom. The gourd may need to be freshened up in a season or
two but just make sure it is dry and repeat the waxing procedure. Added to
what else has been offered by others, I hope this helps and I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

RANDAL J BUBLITZ wrote:

> Gail, I do not fill the gourds all the way.  I pour some in and swish it
> around, repeat until satisfied.  There was a letter in hereawhile ago,
> and it sounded like the fellow filled, then emptied.     Hardtack
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:04:43 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fur Trade Symposium

Gail,

The Jedediah Smith Society and the John Muir Center for Regional Studies are
sponsoring the 51st California History Institue Conference on April 23-25,
1999, at the University of the Pacific in Stockton, CA.  The title is
"Jedediah Smith and the Fur Trade Era."  While it is not the same as what was
in Pinedale, it will be quite similar.  The keynote speaker is David Weber,
author of "Taos Trappers" and "Californios vs. Jedediah Smith."  Proposal for
research papers will be acepted until Nov. 15, 1998.  If you have a paper to
submit, send it to Program Committee, Professor Ron Limbaugh, Department of
History, University of the Pacific, Stockton, CA  95211.  Phone is
[phone], e-mail is [e-mail].  Let me know if I can help you out
in any other wat regarding the symposium.  Hope to see you (and others from
this list) there!

Jim Hardee, AMM#1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
9530)283-5171 FAX
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 21:45:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: re: MtMan-list

Yes Terry, you can freeze them and use them anytime.  I have has some from
about a year ago and they were fine when I defrosted them recently.  If you
need any help braintanning, just drop me a line; I've done a bit.

Best Regards,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488



------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 17:47:38 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: re: MtMan-list

To change the subject but are there any record that anyone knows of, a female
trapper/mountain man during this era.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 18:13:48 -0700
From: [e-mail] (John C. Funk)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Louis Robidoux

You're right. It is info on Louis R. and not Antoine I'm hunting
for.  Specifically, was Louis ever married? If so (and I suspect
he was) to whom and when?  I do know that he spent most of
his life from about 1840 something until his death in ? in what
is now San bernardino County, CA, and was one of the first
of that County's Supervisors.  Much is written about both Louis
and Antoine, but I can't find a record of Louis' marriage or death
date.  If you have any info to shed some light on this I'd sure
appreciate it! - Many thanks - John's dad, also John C. Funk

- --------- Forwarded message ----------
From: [e-mail] (John C Funk)
To: [e-mail]
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 06:11:57 -0700
Subject: [e-mail]: Re: MtMan-List: Antoine Robidoux
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

- --------- Begin forwarded message ----------
From: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antoine Robidoux
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 22:28:28 EDT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

In a message dated 98-10-12 02:26:10 EDT, you write:

<< If you would like information about Mr. Robidoux, you might want to
contact
 Dan Deuter at Ft. Uncompaghre in Delta Colorado. The phone number of the
 Fort is  [phone].

This is good information, but it's for Antoine.  I thought John was
looking
for info on Louis.  From what I've read of Antoine, when he closed Ft
Uncompagre, he returned to Missouri instead of going to California like
Louis
evidently did.  Maybe Antoine DID wind up being the Robidoux John is
looking
for, but it was my understanding Antoine wound up in St Joseph Mo where
there's a hotel named for him -- or there used to be.

NM


- --------- End forwarded message ----------


___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #156
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