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hist_text-digest      Sunday, September 20 1998      Volume 01 : Number 141




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 00:03:42 -0700
From: Corey Tretteen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tipi's -Reply

There is one in Livingston, MT, I believe, unless they have
moved on.   Made by a man named Wendel Cooper.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 01:14:57 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style

guys:
a virginia style of rifle is not a poor boy---nor is it a tennisee style
of rifle---you need to get your books out and do some reading I know of
at least 2 different books on virginia type of rifles---I dont have then
available or i would quote you paragraph and verse as usual---Most of the
virginia guns that i have seen have been half stocks but know of several
full stocks---a lot of the virginia makers were trained by the smiths in
lancaster county and in york and bedford and some of the lines are
similar because of the training.

suggest you look at the "Pennsylvania Kentuckey rifle" by Henry Kauffman
library of congress # 59-14376, page 30 plate #27  it shows the counties
in the various years---and chapter 3 discusses the charectoristics of the
various makers by county---lancaster is on page 32, york county is page
57, bedford page 74.

there is no exact verginia style only those rifles that have been found
that came from virginia the styles are those of the people that the
makers apprenticed with--many have the lancaster lines along with the
york lines---all I can say is I have never seen nor know a maker that
made a roman nose type of gun from verginia so other than that what is a
verginia style of gun---basic contours and lines are lancaster with a
york or burks county thrown in ---I have seen a couple of them that has 2
or 3 characteristics of different counties and makers---contact Lee Good
@ davis museum and he has a good database of makers and you can track and
see who and where they apprenticed with and you will then see the style
and why the lines are such---

I dont plan on writing a book on this subject ---this should be some kind
of answer and i know there are people out there that are going to say YES
THERE IS A VIRGINIA STYLE OF RIFLE---to that I can say PICK YOUR OWN
POISON BUBBA---a lancaster rifle is about as virginia as you will get
other than a Harpers Ferry---and it's along the military line.  harpers
ferry is a major gun building area that hired apprentices from
pennsilvania---and brought them in to work.   EACH MAKER HAD HIS STYLE
AND PREFERENCES___

        =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Sat, 19 Sep 1998 17:13:41 -0700 Frank
<[e-mail]> writes:
>
>PJ,
>
>Thanks for the info.  It's kinda scarry buying through the mail.  From
>what I can
>see and read, that "Southern Rifle" may just be my next purchase.  I
>shor duz need
>me a flinter!  .54 would truely shine!
>
>MB
>
>
>[e-mail] wrote:
>
>> Medicine Bear, I have been using a .54 calibre TVM 'poor-boy' for a
>number of
>> years, and can tell you that it has proven its worth many times
>over.
>
><snip>
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 00:31:54 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint, Steel and Char Cloth

been a lot of traffic on the flint and steel and the char thing again so
I thought i would post the paper the roy parker posted this last
february---he spent a lot of time and has his ducks in order and it
should answer a lot of the questions that have been running back and
forth about char and such---I would like to see roy post his finished
article because it may be a bit different than the one below---

ENJOY ALL___
      YMHOSANT
       =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 06:34:11 GMT [e-mail] (Roy Parker)
writes:
>Several people have asked for this information recently.  The
>following is a reprint of an article I posted in early October.  The
>finished article was lost in a hard disk crash around Thanksgiving,
>and I have not recreated it.  This is based on several years of
>experience, and an exchange on the Usenet group soc.history.living
>with several folks who also frequent this mailing list.  Scott, see if
>you can find your own words in this!
>
>I'm sorry, but the article is NOT complete.  If you've never made a
>flint and steel fire before, here's the gist of it.  The following is
>a DRAFT copy.  The actual article is only about half done.  I=92m
>retaining the copyright for this article, since I hope to have it
>published for profit and make millions of dollars when Steven
>Spielberg turns this into a major movie..   The final article had all
>the contributors listed.  I don't have them here, but pulled all the
>1996-1997 exchanges off of Deja News by doing a search for "fire
>starting".  When I rewrite this, full credit to all contributors will
>be given, especially for the info on charwood.
>
>
>The article needs a lot of wordsmithing.  I have not done much except
>spell check it, so it is obviously not ready to go yet. =20
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>----------------------------
>There=92s a lot of ways to start fires.  I=92m going to cover
>techniques
>I=92ve used off and on over the last 19 years.  I=92ll also cover a
>few
>techniques that I do NOT have a lot of experience with, but other
>folks do  I=92ll be straight with you when I report on something
>someone
>else recommends, but I=92ve only experimented with.  If I don=92t like
>=
>the
>method, I=92ll tell you, but understand it may be because I don=92t
>have
>the technique down due to enough experimentation.  Try it yourself.
>=20
>
>We=92re going to cover charcloth making, striker selection, flint
>selection, proper tinder and then tie all this together into proper
>flint and steel firestarting.  Char is usually made from cloth, but
>several people I corresponded with have used different natural
>materials.  This will be covered later on.  We=92ll also cover how to
>select and use a firebow, how to use your shootin=92 iron as a fire
>starter, char wood making and use, the burning lens (aka magnifying
>glass),  and we=92ll end it with what I diplomatically call
>=93shortcut=94
>(others may call it cheating) techniques some scum-sucking weasles use
>to get an edge on the competition, just so you have an idea of what to
>look out for.
>
>Charcloth Making
>
>=46orget all the stuff they told you in Boy Scouts about using dryer
>lint, picking up a rock and striking sparks, or rubbing two sticks
>together.  It=92s hogwash.  If you follow the recommendations in this
>article, make a batch or two of charcloth so you can see what is
>=93good=94 versus =93bad=94 select a flint as described, and have a
>good
>striker, you=92ll have flame in less than 15 seconds almost every time
>you try.  My personal best at fire starting is 8.1 seconds, and that
>took third place.=20
>
>Char is important because you need some material that will catch the
>sparks from your striker.  You can have a marvelous striker and flint,
>and chuck sparks into dryer lint until the cows come home.  And they
>come home about the time you have a spark catch in the dryer lint. =20
>
>The reason you char cloth is to essentially turn it into pure carbon,
>kinda like a super charcoal briquette.  You want a material that chars
>well, and has a lot of surface roughness to hold the spark from the
>striker until it can ignite the cloth.  Dryer lint, et. al, has a much
>higher combustion temperature to keep a coal glowing than does char
>cloth.  That=92s why it is so hard to start a fire this way.  Good
>char
>cloth will grab a spark as soon as it hits.
>
>Start with 100 percent cotton or linen fabric.  Make absolutely sure
>there are no synthetics.  These will melt and burn and leave a
>fire-proof coating over what remains of the fabric.  It also makes an
>awful mess of your char tin.  Wool has its own fire retardant.  Lore
>has it that you can=92t make char cloth out of wool, and I always
>believed it until I sat down to write these lines.  I=92ve always
>accepted that wool won=92t work, but you know, I have never tired it.
>I
>will have to take a shot at it next time I make up a batch of char.
>
>I=92ve heard that using cloth with patterns makes inferior char cloth.
>In my experience, it doesn=92t seem to matter.  New fabric such as
>left
>overs from shirt making need to be washed several times before you
>char them.  Most material like this contains a something called a
>sizing, which is fine clay impregnated in the cloth to make it
>smoother and easier to cut for patterns.  You can make char cloth from
>it, but the sizing leaves a bit more ash in the tin, and sometimes
>keeps a spark for catching as it seems to have to burn through the
>sizing first.  Pure canvas from the sewing store works pretty good
>after being well washed.  Flannel works well too if you make sure you
>do NOT get the flame-retardant kind.  All of these things will work.
>
>To make char cloth you can=92t put out without water, you have to use
>a
>special type of cloth.  Forget about blue jeans, cotton scraps,
>flannel,  canvas, etc. The best stuff I have ever found for char cloth
>is called Monk's Cloth (available at almost any sewing center, at
>least here in Texas).  It has 5-9 threads in the warp and the woof (?)
>(these are sewing terms I really don't understand, but it means the
>top layer weaves in and out of the bottom layer {going sideways of
>course} kinda like the plastic webbing you have on your aluminum
>framed lawn chairs, except this is all cotton, and is a lot thinner
>weave.  Monks cloth looks a lot like a coarser weave of the gauze
>you=92d find in a first aid kit.  For those of you who are wondering,
>I=92ve tried using gauze for char also.  It crumbles too easily
>compared
>to the Monk=92s cloth for my taste, but catches a spark immediately.
>If
>I ever get access to a scanner, I=92ll upload a picture to the web.
>
>How do you make char cloth? Easy.  Get some 100% linen or cotton, or
>if you=92ve been paying attention, get some Monk=92s cloth ( wash it
>once
>or twice first-a yard of this stuff will start hundreds of fires), cut
>it up into about inch and a half squares, no larger.  When you have a
>decent handful of pieces, put them in your char tin.  I fill my tin
>(one of the old, large shoe polish tins) so that the pile sticks out
>about three-eighths of an inch before putting the lid on.  This
>compresses the cloth a little, but I=92ve never noticed a problem .
>If
>you really stuff the tin full, you=92ll find a lot of the material in
>the center is not properly charred.  A little compression is ok, a lot
>is bad.
>
>A char tin is nothing more than a small metal can that has a tight
>fitting  metal lid.  A shoe polish tin or a pint paint can works
>great.  The pint paint can doubles as a container when making char
>wood.  We=92ll cover that later.  Clean out all residue from the
>previous inhabitant of the can before your start.  The real secret is
>to have a very tight fitting lid, and to close it down tight after you
>put in the cloth.  Next, take a small nail, about a one inch finishing
>nail and poke a hole in the lid. =20
>
>Now, find a small twig and sharpen it until it plugs the hole you just
>punched in the top as tight as can be.  Set the twig aside, as you
>won=92t need it for a while.  Now toss the can, lid up on the fire.
>I=92ve tried a bunch of different fires.  Some work and some don=92t
>and =
>I
>don=92t know why.  Campfires seem to make the best char cloth.  Set it
>on the edge of the coals, and plan 2-5 minutes a side for cooking.
>Good charcoal fires work about the same.  I=92ve tried this numerous
>times on my propane grill in the backyard, and on my coal forge, at
>both fast and slow heats, and never had any luck with making good
>char.  My best guess is that even on =91slow=92 heat, it is still too
>=
>much
>for propane and coal.
>
>Okay, you have your char tin heating on the fire.  More and more smoke
>is coming out the tiny hole you made (that=92s why you made it!).  The
>smoke smells really nasty.  Drop a burning twig across the hole to
>ignite the smoke if you or your neighbors have a sensitive nose.  When
>the smoke trail is almost gone, flip the can over in the fire, wait
>1-2 minutes, and flip it back over.  If there is no more smoke pull
>the can out of the fire, and IMMEDIATELY stick the twig into the hole
>on the top.  The twig is to prevent pulling air back into the can as
>it cools down. =20
>
>This is why it is nice to make char toward nightfall.  If the can
>starts glowing red, it tells you that you do NOT have an airtight
>seal, and that air is being sucked back into the char tin, setting the
>char on fire....that=92s why the can is a dull red in color...it=92s
>hot.
>If this happens, toss the charcloth out and start over.  I once needed
>to make some char at rendezvous and had stepped on the lid, so
>couldn=92t get a good seal.  Rather than go borrow another tin, I
>tried
>making up a thick mud of clay, smeared that around the rim, put on the
>lid, added a bit more clay to the seam and tossed it in the fire.  It
>worked like a charm.
>
>If the char is brown, or even has white spots, it was not on the fire
>long enough.  Put it back in the can and cook it some more.  You
>should see more smoke coming out the hole as you finish charring the
>cloth.  If the char is brittle, it has been overcooked or still had
>the sizing left in the cloth.  Leftover sizing often also leaves a
>shiny residue in the can.  If it is brittle, throw it away and start
>over.  Good char should be bend double without any cracking or crazing
>while being uniformly black in color.  You should be able to bend it
>in half with no problems.  If it can=92t do that, it is overcooked and
>makes inferior charcloth.  Yep, it will still start fires, just not
>nearly as quickly.  Assuming none of these bad things happened,
>congratulations!  You=92ve made your first char cloth!  Now what?
>
>Selecting a Flint
>
>A lot of people think this is a no-brainer, but it is important.
>There are two things you want in a flint.  The first is sharpness, and
>the second is hardness.  A truly sharp flint is like a piece of broken
>glass.  It is one molecule thick on the edge.  No steel knife of any
>type can even begin to approach that sort of sharpness.  Learn how to
>knap a flint for maximum sharpness.  It makes a big difference in how
>strong a string of sparks you can toss from the steel.  Some of the
>best flints I=92ve ever had have been flakes and spalls left around
>after someone demonstrated arrowhead making.  They=92re small and
>exceedingly sharp.
>
>Rule of thumb is that the darker the piece of flint, the harder it is.
>And the harder the piece of flint, the lower it dulls.  But I=92ve
>seen
>some awfully light colored flints throw some very impressive sparks.
>So I give sharpness the nod over the hardness of the flint.
>
>If you can find it, get a chunk of red jasper.  Some parts of the
>country it is easy to come by, and others quite difficult.  Here in
>Houston, where we=92re 100 miles or more from the nearest rock at
>ground
>level, I cruise gravel parking lots.  Much of the gravel we get is
>flint, and there always seems to be a piece or two of red jasper.  Red
>jasper is 2-3 times as hard as flint, and if sharp will really throw
>some truly awesome sparks that can still sizzle when they hit the
>ground.=20
>
>Selecting a Striker
>
>There are two types of strikers.  Good ones and bad ones.  Initially,
>it can be hard to tell the difference.  The best place to get a GOOD
>striker is at rendezvous from the smith who made it.  If you buy it
>from someone other than the blacksmith who made it, test it out for
>10-15 minutes.  Rule of thumb is that you should be able to hold the
>striker at waist level, strike it with the flint, and have sparks
>burning at the top of your moccasins.  When you find a striker that
>does this, keep striking for about 15 minutes.  Some of the strikers
>available have only a case hardening.  Those sparks you see are little
>bits of burning metal cut off by the flint (see why we want a sharp
>flint?) and ignited by the friction of the flint hitting the striker..
>
>
>If you only have a case hardness on the steel the metal is hard for
>only 2-3 thousands of an inch, and after 10 or so minutes of striking,
>suddenly quit giving off a spark.  You=92ve used up the hardness, and
>the striker is worthless.  You=92ll pay a few bucks more getting a
>striker from the original smith, but you=92ll also get a lifetime
>guarantee, most likely.
>
>Make sure the striking face is smooth.  If it is made from a file,
>make sure that there are no file marks left on the face of the
>striker, or near the edges where a flint can hit.  Catching one of
>these defects can snap the striker in half, as it forces it to break
>along a fault line.
>
>Tinder
>
>Tinder is made out of dead plants, the finer the better.  There=92s a
>lot of good material out there.  Dead grasses rolled through the hands
>until they become fibers, tow used in taxidermy (the leftovers from
>the flax plant when the linen is removed), hay, pine needles, cedar
>bark ground up finely by hand and allowed to dry.  You want to keep it
>fine, but not turn it into a powder.  Tinder is the stuff that will
>take the glowing coal from you char cloth and suddenly burst into
>flame for building your fire.  Get the deadest, driest stuff you can
>find, dry it some more, and then keep it dry!
>
>Making a Fire by Flint and Steel
>
>Okay, you now have good charcloth, a good flint, a good steel and some
>tinder.  How do we go about turning this into a conflagration?  No
>problem.  First of all, you=92re going to split up some kindling.
>Then
>you=92re going to follow the three (3) steps below EXACTLY AS WRITTEN.
>Once you get these three steps down pay, you can start experimenting
>to improve your speed.
>
>The tender you have will burn for only a few seconds, so you have to
>get some larger stuff burning during that time.  Start by getting some
>dry wood split into pieces about the size of match sticks, and
>gradually progressing until you are adding pieces about a half to inch
>in diameter.  At that point there is no way the fire is going out
>unless the heavens open up.  We=92re not going to get into types of
>fires.  I like a tipi style, other like some of the many others.  Use
>what works for you.
>
>1.  Strike the spark.
>    If you=92re right-handed, hold the steel in your left hand.
>Hold the flint/jasper level in your right with 2-3 pieces of char on
>top of the rock.  The sharp edge of the flint must point to yor
>right.Use your thumb to keep the char from slipping off and position
>it so that the char is even with the striking edge of the flint.  Use
>the steel to whack the flint in a rather gentle motion.  You=92re
>trying
>to shave off tiny pieces of burning metal with the flint, not bash
>down a building.  If you have to hit it hard to get a spark, you=92ve
>got either a lousy striker or a dull flint.  Band-Aids may be called
>for until you get a feel for the proper technique. Keep it up until
>you get a spark to catch on the char.  If you have good equipment and
>Monk=92s cloth, only one or two whacks will be needed.  You can see a
>small orange glow in the char where the spark has lodged.  This glow
>may only be obvious in the dark unless you shade the cloth.  If you
>can=92t see it and burn your thumb, it=92s lit..
>
>2.  Blow it into flame
>    Blow on it gently to sprea  This can cause a massive blowing
>fit, d the fire and at the same time grab a handful of the tinder
>you=92ve already made up into a bird=92s nest about the size of a
>baseball.  Tuck the glowing char down into the center of the
>birdsnest, pinch the birdsnest closed using your thumb and forefinger
>to compress it around the char cloth, raise it above your head
>slightly with your back to the wind, and gently blow on it.  If your
>lungs empty, and no flames are in sight, turn your head to 90 degrees,
>grab a breath of fresh air, and resume blowing.  You keep the nest
>above your head, plus turn it 90 degrees to keep from sucking the
>unlit smoke back in your lungs, which is detrimental to your Mt. Man
>image.
>
>3.  Starting the Fire
>    When the flames suddenly erupt, drop the birdsnest into your
>firepit, add the kindling, and gently nurse the blaze into a full
>conflagration by adding slightly larger pieces of wood to the fire.
>Make up a pot of coffee, and invite the booshway over.  He may not be
>impressed with your first-ever flint and steel fire, but he always
>appreciates a pot of coffee.
>
>
>=46irebows
>
>I=92ll be the first to admit this is not one of my areas of great
>expertise.  But I have used a couple of systems, and have started a
>hundred or so fires this way, mainly for the benefit of the public.
>
>Roy Parker, Booshway, 1998 SW Regional Rendezvous,
>[e-mail]
>=46ull SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus
>Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including "BS".
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 13:44:20 -0500
From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style

Hawk,
  Were not most Virginia rifles steel mounted because of the lack of brass
available ? Or  is that a misconception due to the fine work of Herschal
House since he tends to build a lot of steel mounted Virginia rifles? I
agree with everthing you have said about poor boys and Tennesee rifles not
neccessarily being Virginia rifles. Although some Virginia guns were poor
boys, and some Tennessee guns were for sure not poor boys. And yes the
gunmakers of Virginia did migrate from the Pennsylvania area and carry with
them the Lancaster influence. Pendleton--------
> From: Michael Pierce <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style
> Date: Sunday, September 20, 1998 12:14 AM
>
> guys:
> a virginia style of rifle is not a poor boy---nor is it a tennisee style
> of rifle---you need to get your books out and do some reading I know of
> at least 2 different books on virginia type of rifles---I dont have then
> available or i would quote you paragraph and verse as usual---Most of the
> virginia guns that i have seen have been half stocks but know of several
> full stocks---a lot of the virginia makers were trained by the smiths in
> lancaster county and in york and bedford and some of the lines are
> similar because of the training.
>
> suggest you look at the "Pennsylvania Kentuckey rifle" by Henry Kauffman
> library of congress # 59-14376, page 30 plate #27  it shows the counties
> in the various years---and chapter 3 discusses the charectoristics of the
> various makers by county---lancaster is on page 32, york county is page
> 57, bedford page 74.
>
> there is no exact verginia style only those rifles that have been found
> that came from virginia the styles are those of the people that the
> makers apprenticed with--many have the lancaster lines along with the
> york lines---all I can say is I have never seen nor know a maker that
> made a roman nose type of gun from verginia so other than that what is a
> verginia style of gun---basic contours and lines are lancaster with a
> york or burks county thrown in ---I have seen a couple of them that has 2
> or 3 characteristics of different counties and makers---contact Lee Good
> @ davis museum and he has a good database of makers and you can track and
> see who and where they apprenticed with and you will then see the style
> and why the lines are such---
>
> I dont plan on writing a book on this subject ---this should be some kind
> of answer and i know there are people out there that are going to say YES
> THERE IS A VIRGINIA STYLE OF RIFLE---to that I can say PICK YOUR OWN
> POISON BUBBA---a lancaster rifle is about as virginia as you will get
> other than a Harpers Ferry---and it's along the military line.  harpers
> ferry is a major gun building area that hired apprentices from
> pennsilvania---and brought them in to work.   EACH MAKER HAD HIS STYLE
> AND PREFERENCES___
>
>         =+=
>       "Hawk"
> Michael Pierce
> 854 Glenfield Dr.
> Palm Harbor, florida   34684
> 1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
>
> On Sat, 19 Sep 1998 17:13:41 -0700 Frank
> <[e-mail]> writes:
> >
> >PJ,
> >
> >Thanks for the info.  It's kinda scarry buying through the mail.  From
> >what I can
> >see and read, that "Southern Rifle" may just be my next purchase.  I
> >shor duz need
> >me a flinter!  .54 would truely shine!
> >
> >MB
> >
> >
> >[e-mail] wrote:
> >
> >> Medicine Bear, I have been using a .54 calibre TVM 'poor-boy' for a
> >number of
> >> years, and can tell you that it has proven its worth many times
> >over.
> >
> ><snip>
> >
> >
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 19:34:29 -0500
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fur trappers

Consult the following:
www.state.ok.us/~odwc
That is the web site for the Oklahoma Dept of Wildlife Conservation.  Maybe
they can help.
Lanney Ratcliff
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jerrys <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Saturday, September 19, 1998 12:03 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: fur trappers


I am trying to find the defination of the word PINCHON. It was used in an
article in the outdoor oklahoman some time ago. Taken form a book by Grant
Foreman.  It said 97 fox & PINCHON.  Was it some kind of animal? Amy
information on this subject would be GREATLY appreceited.  Thank you very
much [e-mail].


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:15:39 -0400
From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style

Frank wrote:
>
> PJ,
>
> Thanks for the info.  It's kinda scarry buying through the mail.  From what I can
> see and read, that "Southern Rifle" may just be my next purchase.  I shor duz need
> me a flinter!  .54 would truely shine!

I have a So. Mtn. Rifle (flint) from Deer Creek which is VERY well
made...semi-custom hand-made.  However, the biggest cal. is .50.  I
wouldn't let this put you off however, as I shoot "rifle powder" in
mine, which is a mix of 50/50 ffg and fffg graded powder (Elephant works
VERY well), 90gr. at shoots and 100gr. hunting.  Velocity and energy is
DEFINITELY "there."

Fred

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 19:55:51 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 'poor boy' rifles

WOW, i see i should have changed the heading BEFORE i wrote to medicine bear.
i wasn't trying to convey that TVC's 'poor-boy' is a virginia rifle, 'cuz its
not, only that its a damn fine piece of work, and, southern style 'poor-boys'
were carried and traded and handed-down throughout this whole country by the
late 1700's.  also, there were virginia 'poor boys', and tennessee or southern
rifles that weren't.  sorry if i misled or confused anybody.  PJ

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:48:50 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tipi's

Moonshine AKA Steve Johnson out of Kimberling City, MO 417-739-4709 does
rendezvous up in that area and make tents and tipi s.  I stay in one of his
canvas homes myself

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 23:57:32 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style

You were very correct in the reason for the steel mounting--Herschel
house makes a fine copy of a original verginia gun but if you look at it
it is similar to a fordney which the man that made herschels gun that he
usto copy had apprenticed under---  also about the time riflemaling got
realley going in virginia,  harpers ferry was going strong and they were
making military weapons and most of them were steel mounted and it
carried over into the civilian guns that were being produced--  Sam and
Jake Hawkins worked at Harpers Ferry for a few years and then moved to st
louis and if you look at the basic lines of a hawkins and a 1803 harpers
ferry you will see a lot of sembilance in contours--william Christifer
hawkins apprenticed in lancaster county and also worked at harpers ferry
and it is sometimes said he made verginia type rifles and almost all of
those were either steel or silver mounted--not much brass---
page 94 of "the Kentuckey rifle" "a true american heritage" (Library of
congress number 67-18479) shows a fine full stock rifle with lancaster
lines similar to a fordney also page 98 shows a slight romen nose similar
to york county guns  both guns are unsigned which indicates that the
makers were not yet master builders but both are of high quality---page 8
shows a verginia gun with the marks J.B.  also a lot of the virginia guns
look a lot like Danial Borders  from bedford county---  a lot of the
verginia guns are very similar to a borders style of  gun.  a lot of the
makers in virginia also migrated from marilyn and there is some of the
marilyn influence you might check out page 39 of the same book of a south
western verginia gun marked A.H. and is steel mounted--it should be noted
that Christipher Hawkens came from Hagerstown Marilyn to virginia with
his sons Jake and Sam hawkens---There was a S. Lauck from Winchester Va
and his style is  very similar to the christipher hawkens style and the
lancaster style(see page 51 of the same book)---  there was a J. Montague
whose style and type is a combination of a marilyn gun and a dauphine
county gun see page 59 of the same book--It is thought that he
apprenticed with Leonard reedy or he worked with him for a short period
of time---M. Sheets is from Shepardstown Virginia  and his contour and
basic lines  is similar to a lancaster rifle with carving similar to
marilyn guns---most of his guns had relief carving see page 77 same
reference--

the book that i have refenced has quite good detail and only shows guns
of the highest quality with a lot of ornimantation and such -- i can
continue and give you some makers that primarily used steel mountings and
were from virginia but the above show the basic lines and contours that
is called a virginia style of rifle only the average gun was steel
mounted---many without patch boxes---some even with wooden patchbox.  I
remember one of those but would have to dig to give you a paragraph and
verse---

I have seen a few of what you call poor boys but the lines and contours
are mostly in line with the lancaster style without patchbox, or
buttplate and with a greese hole in the butt stock --- most of these had
no cheek piece on either side and was only a cheep gun and not along the
lines of the tenn. pore boy which you speek.  the problem is that this
type of gun when wore out was turned into something else in other words
the steel was recycled---into chizzles and other tools---I have a
verginia poor boy and for years argued that it was a tenn.  made gun and
when comparing it to a tenn. the trigger guard is quite different and
more like a steel cast trigger guard similar to a lancaster gun---that
was the give-away for it I was told by several "QUOTE" experts in
verginia guns---one was hershal  I cornered him at friendship one year
and asked him about the gun---he said it was a virginia poor boy.

I hope I have not put a lot of confusion in the answer---

       YMHOSANT
         =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 13:44:20 -0500 "yellow rose/pendleton"
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Hawk,
>  Were not most Virginia rifles steel mounted because of the lack of
>brass
>available ? Or  is that a misconception due to the fine work of
>Herschal
>House since he tends to build a lot of steel mounted Virginia rifles?
>I
>agree with everthing you have said about poor boys and Tennesee rifles
>not
>neccessarily being Virginia rifles. Although some Virginia guns were
>poor
>boys, and some Tennessee guns were for sure not poor boys. And yes the
>gunmakers of Virginia did migrate from the Pennsylvania area and carry
>with
>them the Lancaster influence. Pendleton--------
>> From: Michael Pierce <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style
>> Date: Sunday, September 20, 1998 12:14 AM
>>
>> guys:
>> a virginia style of rifle is not a poor boy---nor is it a tennisee
>style
>> of rifle---you need to get your books out and do some reading I know
>of
>> at least 2 different books on virginia type of rifles---I dont have
>then
>> available or i would quote you paragraph and verse as usual---Most
>of the
>> virginia guns that i have seen have been half stocks but know of
>several
>> full stocks---a lot of the virginia makers were trained by the
>smiths in
>> lancaster county and in york and bedford and some of the lines are
>> similar because of the training.
>>
>> suggest you look at the "Pennsylvania Kentuckey rifle" by Henry
>Kauffman
>> library of congress # 59-14376, page 30 plate #27  it shows the
>counties
>> in the various years---and chapter 3 discusses the charectoristics
>of the
>> various makers by county---lancaster is on page 32, york county is
>page
>> 57, bedford page 74.
>>
>> there is no exact verginia style only those rifles that have been
>found
>> that came from virginia the styles are those of the people that the
>> makers apprenticed with--many have the lancaster lines along with
>the
>> york lines---all I can say is I have never seen nor know a maker
>that
>> made a roman nose type of gun from verginia so other than that what
>is a
>> verginia style of gun---basic contours and lines are lancaster with
>a
>> york or burks county thrown in ---I have seen a couple of them that
>has 2
>> or 3 characteristics of different counties and makers---contact Lee
>Good
>> @ davis museum and he has a good database of makers and you can
>track and
>> see who and where they apprenticed with and you will then see the
>style
>> and why the lines are such---
>>
>> I dont plan on writing a book on this subject ---this should be some
>kind
>> of answer and i know there are people out there that are going to
>say YES
>> THERE IS A VIRGINIA STYLE OF RIFLE---to that I can say PICK YOUR OWN
>> POISON BUBBA---a lancaster rifle is about as virginia as you will
>get
>> other than a Harpers Ferry---and it's along the military line.
>harpers
>> ferry is a major gun building area that hired apprentices from
>> pennsilvania---and brought them in to work.   EACH MAKER HAD HIS
>STYLE
>> AND PREFERENCES___
>>
>>         =+=
>>       "Hawk"
>> Michael Pierce
>> 854 Glenfield Dr.
>> Palm Harbor, florida   34684
>> 1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
>>
>> On Sat, 19 Sep 1998 17:13:41 -0700 Frank
>> <[e-mail]> writes:
>> >
>> >PJ,
>> >
>> >Thanks for the info.  It's kinda scarry buying through the mail.
>From
>> >what I can
>> >see and read, that "Southern Rifle" may just be my next purchase.
>I
>> >shor duz need
>> >me a flinter!  .54 would truely shine!
>> >
>> >MB
>> >
>> >
>> >[e-mail] wrote:
>> >
>> >> Medicine Bear, I have been using a .54 calibre TVM 'poor-boy' for
>a
>> >number of
>> >> years, and can tell you that it has proven its worth many times
>> >over.
>> >
>> ><snip>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>_____________________________________________________________________
>> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
>> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:29:46 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 'poor boy' rifles

no problem PJ I get confused all the time everyone says it's my age and
such----when the mind gows i dont know what i will do---and my better
half says its starting---
        =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 19:55:51 EDT [e-mail] writes:
>WOW, i see i should have changed the heading BEFORE i wrote to
>medicine bear.
>i wasn't trying to convey that TVC's 'poor-boy' is a virginia rifle,
>'cuz its
>not, only that its a damn fine piece of work, and, southern style
>'poor-boys'
>were carried and traded and handed-down throughout this whole country
>by the
>late 1700's.  also, there were virginia 'poor boys', and tennessee or
>southern
>rifles that weren't.  sorry if i misled or confused anybody.  PJ
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:26:31 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Virginia style

why do you mix the powders fred---how the hell can you be consistant---
mixing FF and FFF g is a new one on me----I shoot 3 f in everything I own
except my shotguns and have done darn well at a many a shoot for many
years---I never have shot any of the elephant powder---I shoot 85 gr of
FFFg in my 54 and have shot a many a  cleans with x's.  Gun has a Bill
Large Barrel in it and that is what bill suggested---I have tried loads
from 50 gr to 150 gr and the 70 to 95 gr has the smallest group with the
85gr having the most consistant in all kinds of weather---and
temperature---

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:15:39 -0400 "Fred A. Miller"
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Frank wrote:
>>
>> PJ,
>>
>> Thanks for the info.  It's kinda scarry buying through the mail.
>From what I can
>> see and read, that "Southern Rifle" may just be my next purchase.  I
>shor duz need
>> me a flinter!  .54 would truely shine!
>
>I have a So. Mtn. Rifle (flint) from Deer Creek which is VERY well
>made...semi-custom hand-made.  However, the biggest cal. is .50.  I
>wouldn't let this put you off however, as I shoot "rifle powder" in
>mine, which is a mix of 50/50 ffg and fffg graded powder (Elephant
>works
>VERY well), 90gr. at shoots and 100gr. hunting.  Velocity and energy
>is
>DEFINITELY "there."
>
>Fred
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

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