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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest)
To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1365
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
hist_text-digest Sunday, June 6 2004 Volume 01 : Number 1365
In this issue:
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Description of Saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Recipe
-áááááá MtMan-List: "Description of Saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition" by Ann Nelson
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: "Description of Saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition" by Ann Nelson
-áááááá MtMan-List: More horse stuff
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: "Description of Saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition" by Ann Nelson
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 20:56:58 -0600
From: "Gary" <blackhorse53@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Description of Saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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I would like a copy and I will help defray the costs. Accurate historic =
horse tack info is not the easiest to come by. Thanks.
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Jerry Bell=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 11:10 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Description of Saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition
I contacted the Utah Museum of Natural History about the paper =
entitled ""Description of Saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition," by Ann =
Nelson. They found a copy and are sending it to me. I may get it =
today. I did not mention it because I wanted to wait until I got it to =
determine its value; nevertheless, a Todd Glover just contacted them =
about the same thing. They thought that was quite a coincidence to have =
this happen twice in the same week when no one has asked for it =
previously. The Museum called me to see if Todd were an associate of =
mine. I am trying to find out. If so, they want me to make copies of =
the paper and send it rather than having them do it as they have very =
limited copies and do not want to incur the expense. I have two =
questions:
1. Is one of you Todd Glover?
2. If I find the paper valuable, I would be happy to send copies =
along as long as I don't have to send hundred's of them. Those =
interested, let me know.
Sincerely,
Jerry
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<BODY lang=3DEN-US vLink=3Dpurple link=3Dblue bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Century Schoolbook">I would like a copy and I will =
help defray=20
the costs. Accurate historic horse tack info is not the easiest to come =
by.=20
Thanks.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Djrbell@smartfella.com =
href=3D"mailto:jrbell@smartfella.com">Jerry=20
Bell</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com=
</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, June 04, 2004 =
11:10=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: =
Description of=20
Saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=3DSection1>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt">I=20
contacted the Utah Museum of Natural History about the paper entitled=20
=93"Description of Saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition," by Ann =
Nelson. =20
They found a copy and are sending it to me. I may get it =
today. I=20
did not mention it because I wanted to wait until I got it to =
determine its=20
value; nevertheless, a Todd Glover just contacted them about the same=20
thing. They thought that was quite a coincidence to have this =
happen=20
twice in the same week when no one has asked for it previously. =
The=20
Museum called me to see if Todd were an associate of mine. I am =
trying=20
to find out. If so, they want me to make copies of the paper and =
send it=20
rather than having them do it as they have very limited copies and do =
not want=20
to incur the expense. I have two questions:</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt">1. =20
Is one of you Todd Glover?</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt">2. =20
If I find the paper valuable, I would be happy to send copies along as =
long as=20
I don=92t have to send hundred=92s of them. Those interested, =
let me=20
know.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Sincerely,</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Jerry</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 10:42:26 -0400
From: "DOUBLE EDGE FORGE" <deforge1@bright.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Recipe
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Hey Wynn,
Great recipe! Hafta try it. Here's one that is an artery clogger, =
but good on a cold night in camp..... Read it in a journal and hadda =
try it.
Take good bear oil and heat with as much maple sugar as it will hold =
(saterated) Then take roasted chuncks of venison or bear and dip into =
the oil mixture and enjoy. Simple, but will probably turn your blood =
into cold molasses if you do it often
D
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>Hey Wynn,</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG> Great recipe! Hafta try=20
it. Here's one that is an artery clogger, but good on a cold =
night=20
in camp..... Read it in a journal and hadda try =
it.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>Take good bear oil and heat =
with as much=20
maple sugar as it will hold (saterated) Then take roasted chuncks =
of=20
venison or bear and dip into the oil mixture and enjoy. Simple, =
but will=20
probably turn your blood into cold molasses if you do it=20
often</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>D</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial size=3D-1><A=20
href=3D"http://messenger.yahoo.com/"></A></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML=
>
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 17:34:54 -0600
From: "Jerry Bell" <jrbell@smartfella.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: "Description of Saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition" by Ann Nelson
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C44B23.6AB1EB00
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I have been a member of the ALRA for over ten years, but recently =
decided it
would make more sense to study and participate in an era that was closer =
to
home. It seemed interesting to me that many of us who live in the West
replicate personas from the East and those who live in the East do =
Western
interpretations. Consequently I decided to move my persona out west and =
to
a later time frame. In the meantime, I also acquired a horse several =
years
ago and I wanted to use it as part of my pursuit. However, to remain =
part
of the ALRA, my time frame had to not extend much beyond 1812. As a =
result
of all of this, I have been doing quite a bit of research on early =
western
saddles lately. I discovered that there is not much information out =
there.
Therefore, when I heard about the paper, "Description of Saddlery in the
Renwick Exhibition" by Ann Nelson, I was excited about perhaps finding a =
new
source. Now, I am some what embarrassed by what I am about to say. I =
just
received a copy of the article and much to my chagrin; I discovered that =
it
is the last chapter in the book, Man Made Mobile edited by Richard E.
Ahlborn. I recently acquired this book, but have only had time to read =
the
first 3 chapters; therefore, I did not recognize the name of the paper =
when
I saw it. Perhaps some of you already have the book? When I learned =
this,
I went to the book and reviewed all of the chapters. I discovered that =
the
last 3 chapters are probably of more value to me than the first three =
that I
read. They are entitled, "Western Saddles before the Cowboy" by James =
S.
Hutchins, "Saddles of the Plains Indians" by John C. Ewers, and =
"Description
of Saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition" by Ann Nelson. I am reading them =
now
and will report back to you. I am not quite sure how to get the =
pertinent
information to all of you do not have the book. I went on the internet =
in
search of other copies and so far I found only 4. They range in price =
from
$35.00 to $100.00 ea.
=20
Finally, I also wanted to mention that in an effort to get a saddle that
would fit my persona and time frame, I acquired a replica of a Hussar =
saddle
that was, according to Randy Steffen in his book The Horse Soldier
1776-1943, Vol I The Revolution, the War of 1812, the Early Frontier
1776-1850, "used..during the Revolutionary War and by some units of U.S.
Dragoons during the second war with the British.", p. 49. A drawing of =
it
is on page 50 of in Steffen's book. Louis Lasater also used a drawing =
of
Randy Steffen's on page 29 in his great article on Saddles in the =
February,
2003, issue of "The Tomahawk and Long Rife", which is similar to my =
saddle.
In addition, Russel H. Beatie in his book entitled Saddles on page 50
states, "From 1821 to 1844 traders from Missouri, especially from Saint
Louis, traded goods to Santa Fe and brought back goods, among which =
saddles.
Most of the trappers road flat saddles or dragoon saddles, over which =
was
thrown a buffalo robe, held in place by a surcingle. Though this fact
distresses some proponents of the "western cult," it has been documented =
by
paintings by artists who lived and painted during the early 1800's."
Consequently, my rationale for using it was that my persona could have =
been
a former soldier who had the saddle and took it with him west or he =
could
have acquired it through "War Surplus" like we do today. However, after =
I
had purchased the saddle, it has been pointed out to me that all of my
sources are secondary or thirdly sources, not one is a primary source.
While Beatie states there are paintings which verify his conclusion, I =
am
unaware of any. Therefore, I am still on the search for primary
documentation or another saddle which can be documented. I also =
discovered
that my saddle is not very good for carrying all the stuff we need on
historical treks. =20
=20
By the way, Bob Schmidt made the saddle and I have attached a picture of =
it
if anyone is interested.
=20
Finally, the reason for all of this is that I am eager to share any
information I have. I am just not sure the best way to do it. Any
suggestions would be appreciated. I am also looking for new primary
sources. If anyone has any suggestions, I would appreciate them as =
well. I
know this is quite a long message and thank you to anyone who had the
necessary perseverance to wade through it.
=20
Sincerely,
Jerry
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I have been a member of the ALRA for over ten years, =
but
recently decided it would make more sense to study and participate in an =
era
that was closer to home. It seemed interesting to me that many of =
us who
live in the West replicate personas from the East and those who live in =
the
East do Western interpretations. Consequently I decided to move my
persona out west and to a later time frame. In the meantime, I =
also
acquired a horse several years ago and I wanted to use it as part of my
pursuit. However, to remain part of the ALRA, my time frame had to =
not
extend much beyond 1812. As a result of all of this, I have been =
doing
quite a bit of research on early western saddles lately. I =
discovered
that there is not much information out there. Therefore, when I =
heard
about the paper, "Description of Saddlery in the Renwick =
Exhibition"
by Ann Nelson, I was excited about perhaps finding a new source. =
Now, I
am some what embarrassed by what I am about to say. I just =
received
a copy of the article and much to my chagrin; I discovered that it is =
the last
chapter in the book, <u>Man Made Mobile</u> edited by Richard E. =
Ahlborn.
I recently acquired this book, but have only had time to read the first =
3
chapters; therefore, I did not recognize the name of the paper when I =
saw it. Perhaps
some of you already have the book? When I learned this, I went to =
the
book and reviewed all of the chapters. I discovered that the last =
3
chapters are probably of more value to me than the first three that I
read. They are entitled, “Western Saddles before the =
Cowboy”
by James S. Hutchins, “Saddles of the Plains Indians” by =
John C.
Ewers, and "Description of Saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition" =
by Ann
Nelson. I am reading them now and will report back to you. I =
am not
quite sure how to get the pertinent information to all of you do not =
have the
book. I went on the internet in search of other copies and =
so far I
found only 4. They range in price from $35.00 to $100.00 =
ea.</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Finally, I also wanted to mention that in an effort =
to get a
saddle that would fit my persona and time frame, I acquired a replica of =
a
Hussar saddle that was, according to Randy Steffen in his book =
<b><u><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>The Horse Soldier 1776-1943, Vol I The =
Revolution, the
War of 1812, the Early Frontier 1776-1850</span></u></b>, =
“used….during
the Revolutionary War and by some units of U.S. Dragoons during the =
second war
with the British.”, p. 49. A drawing of it is on page =
50 of
in Steffen’s book. </span></font><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Louis =
Lasater</span></font><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> also used a
drawing of Randy Steffen’s on page 29 in his great article on =
Saddles in
the February, 2003, issue of “The Tomahawk and Long =
Rife”, which
is similar to my saddle. In addition, Russel H. Beatie in his book
entitled <b><u><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Saddles</span></u></b> =
on page 50
states, “From 1821 to 1844 traders from </span></font><font =
size=3D2
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Missouri</span></font><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>, especially
from </span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Saint Louis</span></font><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>, traded goods to =
</span></font><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Santa Fe</span></font><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> and brought
back goods, among which saddles. Most of the trappers road flat =
saddles
or dragoon saddles, over which was thrown a buffalo robe, held in place =
by a
surcingle. Though this fact distresses some proponents of the =
“western
cult,” it has been documented by paintings by artists who lived =
and
painted during the early 1800’s.” Consequently, my =
rationale
for using it was that my persona could have been a former soldier who =
had the
saddle and took it with him west or he could have acquired it through =
“War
Surplus” like we do today. However, after I had purchased =
the
saddle, it has been pointed out to me that all of my sources are =
secondary or
thirdly sources, not one is a primary source. While Beatie states =
there
are paintings which verify his conclusion, I am unaware of any.
Therefore, I am still on the search for primary documentation or another =
saddle
which can be documented. I also discovered that my saddle is not =
very good
for carrying all the stuff we need on historical treks. =
</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>By the way, </span></font><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Bob</span></font><font =
size=3D2
face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Schmidt =
made the
saddle and I have attached a picture of it if anyone is =
interested.</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Finally, the reason for all of this is that I am =
eager to
share any information I have. I am just not sure the best way to =
do
it. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I am also looking =
for new
primary sources. If anyone has any suggestions, I would appreciate =
them
as well. I know this is quite a long message and thank you to =
anyone who
had the necessary perseverance to wade through it.</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Sincerely,</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Jerry</span></font></p>
</div>
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 18:03:20 -0600
From: "Wynn Ormond" <cheyenne@pcu.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Description of Saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition" by Ann Nelson
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Jerry
Check out research done by another member of this list Lee Teeter at=20
http://www.leeteter.com/researchTopics.asp?topic=3D3
Pay attention to saddles made by Grimsley (St Louis) for the military.
Also on Dean Rudy's site there is a number of pics by Kurtz 1850's =
Misouri River, in the one called the Californians or some such there is =
a saddled but unridden horse with a military saddle. It might be =
familair to you. Before you throw away your saddle look to see if it =
could be modified to add ties to it etc. Spending some time looking at =
Millers paintings can be enlightening. Sometimes there is more to see =
there than we give credit for.
Good luck on your search.
Wynn Ormond
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Jerry Bell=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 5:34 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: "Description of Saddlery in the Renwick =
Exhibition" by Ann Nelson
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jerry</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Check out research done by another =
member of this=20
list Lee Teeter at </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.leeteter.com/researchTopics.asp?topic=3D3">http://www.=
leeteter.com/researchTopics.asp?topic=3D3</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Pay attention to saddles made by =
Grimsley (St=20
Louis) for the military.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Also on Dean Rudy's site there is a =
number of pics=20
by Kurtz 1850's Misouri River, in the one called the Californians or =
some such=20
there is a saddled but unridden horse with a military saddle. It =
might be=20
familair to you. Before you throw away your saddle look to see if =
it could=20
be modified to add ties to it etc. Spending some time looking at =
Millers=20
paintings can be enlightening. Sometimes there is more to see =
there than=20
we give credit for.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Good luck on your search.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wynn Ormond</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Djrbell@smartfella.com =
href=3D"mailto:jrbell@smartfella.com">Jerry=20
Bell</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com=
</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, June 05, 2004 =
5:34=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: =
"Description of=20
Saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition" by Ann Nelson</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 18:08:39 -0600
From: "Wynn Ormond" <cheyenne@pcu.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: More horse stuff
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I have a referance I would like to have a copy of it is:
in a forward to "Edward Warren by Sir William Drummond=20
Stewart. If I recall correctly he was in Baltimore, or Washington, =
anyhow,=20
some back-east city...and he said (paraphrased to beat hell) "I have yet =
to=20
see an American that can ride" Something about sacks of wheat or some =
such."
Does anyone have this in Stewarts words that could fax or mail me a copy =
of it?
Wynn Ormond
=20
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<BODY lang=3DEN-US vLink=3Dpurple link=3Dblue bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have a referance I would like to have =
a copy of=20
it is:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>in a forward to "Edward Warren by <FONT =
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Sir William Drummond =
<BR>Stewart. If I=20
recall correctly he was in Baltimore, or Washington, anyhow, <BR>some =
back-east=20
city...and he said (paraphrased to beat hell) "I have yet to <BR>see an =
American=20
that can ride" Something about sacks of wheat or some=20
such."</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D3></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>Does anyone=20
have this in Stewarts words that could fax or mail me a copy =
of=20
it?</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>Wynn=20
Ormond</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> <BR></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 21:08:20 -0600
From: "Gene Hickman" <ghickman9@bresnan.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Description of Saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition" by Ann Nelson
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Looks of info here Jerry. I did I miss something in a previous post? =
Where are you located in the West?
As Always,=20
Your Obedient Servant,=20
=20
Gene Hickman
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Jerry Bell=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 5:34 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: "Description of Saddlery in the Renwick =
Exhibition" by Ann Nelson
I have been a member of the ALRA for over ten years, but recently =
decided it would make more sense to study and participate in an era that =
was closer to home. It seemed interesting to me that many of us who =
live in the West replicate personas from the East and those who live in =
the East do Western interpretations. Consequently I decided to move my =
persona out west and to a later time frame. In the meantime, I also =
acquired a horse several years ago and I wanted to use it as part of my =
pursuit. However, to remain part of the ALRA, my time frame had to not =
extend much beyond 1812. As a result of all of this, I have been doing =
quite a bit of research on early western saddles lately. I discovered =
that there is not much information out there. Therefore, when I heard =
about the paper, "Description of Saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition" by =
Ann Nelson, I was excited about perhaps finding a new source. Now, I am =
some what embarrassed by what I am about to say. I just received a =
copy of the article and much to my chagrin; I discovered that it is the =
last chapter in the book, Man Made Mobile edited by Richard E. Ahlborn. =
I recently acquired this book, but have only had time to read the first =
3 chapters; therefore, I did not recognize the name of the paper when I =
saw it. Perhaps some of you already have the book? When I learned =
this, I went to the book and reviewed all of the chapters. I discovered =
that the last 3 chapters are probably of more value to me than the first =
three that I read. They are entitled, "Western Saddles before the =
Cowboy" by James S. Hutchins, "Saddles of the Plains Indians" by John C. =
Ewers, and "Description of Saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition" by Ann =
Nelson. I am reading them now and will report back to you. I am not =
quite sure how to get the pertinent information to all of you do not =
have the book. I went on the internet in search of other copies and so =
far I found only 4. They range in price from $35.00 to $100.00 ea.
Finally, I also wanted to mention that in an effort to get a saddle =
that would fit my persona and time frame, I acquired a replica of a =
Hussar saddle that was, according to Randy Steffen in his book The Horse =
Soldier 1776-1943, Vol I The Revolution, the War of 1812, the Early =
Frontier 1776-1850, "used..during the Revolutionary War and by some =
units of U.S. Dragoons during the second war with the British.", p. 49. =
A drawing of it is on page 50 of in Steffen's book. Louis Lasater also =
used a drawing of Randy Steffen's on page 29 in his great article on =
Saddles in the February, 2003, issue of "The Tomahawk and Long Rife", =
which is similar to my saddle. In addition, Russel H. Beatie in his =
book entitled Saddles on page 50 states, "From 1821 to 1844 traders from =
Missouri, especially from Saint Louis, traded goods to Santa Fe and =
brought back goods, among which saddles. Most of the trappers road flat =
saddles or dragoon saddles, over which was thrown a buffalo robe, held =
in place by a surcingle. Though this fact distresses some proponents of =
the "western cult," it has been documented by paintings by artists who =
lived and painted during the early 1800's." Consequently, my rationale =
for using it was that my persona could have been a former soldier who =
had the saddle and took it with him west or he could have acquired it =
through "War Surplus" like we do today. However, after I had purchased =
the saddle, it has been pointed out to me that all of my sources are =
secondary or thirdly sources, not one is a primary source. While Beatie =
states there are paintings which verify his conclusion, I am unaware of =
any. Therefore, I am still on the search for primary documentation or =
another saddle which can be documented. I also discovered that my =
saddle is not very good for carrying all the stuff we need on historical =
treks. =20
By the way, Bob Schmidt made the saddle and I have attached a picture =
of it if anyone is interested.
Finally, the reason for all of this is that I am eager to share any =
information I have. I am just not sure the best way to do it. Any =
suggestions would be appreciated. I am also looking for new primary =
sources. If anyone has any suggestions, I would appreciate them as =
well. I know this is quite a long message and thank you to anyone who =
had the necessary perseverance to wade through it.
Sincerely,
Jerry
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<DIV>Looks of info here Jerry. I did I miss something in a previous =
post? Where=20
are you located in the West?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>As Always, <BR>Your Obedient Servant, <BR> <BR>Gene =
Hickman</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Djrbell@smartfella.com =
href=3D"mailto:jrbell@smartfella.com">Jerry=20
Bell</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com=
</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, June 05, 2004 =
5:34=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: =
"Description of=20
Saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition" by Ann Nelson</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=3DSection1>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I have been a member of =
the ALRA=20
for over ten years, but recently decided it would make more sense to =
study and=20
participate in an era that was closer to home. It seemed =
interesting to=20
me that many of us who live in the West replicate personas from the =
East and=20
those who live in the East do Western interpretations. =
Consequently I=20
decided to move my persona out west and to a later time frame. =
In the=20
meantime, I also acquired a horse several years ago and I wanted to =
use it as=20
part of my pursuit. However, to remain part of the ALRA, my time =
frame=20
had to not extend much beyond 1812. As a result of all of this, =
I have=20
been doing quite a bit of research on early western saddles =
lately. I=20
discovered that there is not much information out there. =
Therefore, when=20
I heard about the paper, "Description of Saddlery in the Renwick =
Exhibition"=20
by Ann Nelson, I was excited about perhaps finding a new source. =
Now, I=20
am some what embarrassed by what I am about to say. I just =
received a copy of the article and much to my chagrin; I discovered =
that it is=20
the last chapter in the book, <U>Man Made Mobile</U> edited by Richard =
E.=20
Ahlborn. I recently acquired this book, but have only had time =
to read=20
the first 3 chapters; therefore, I did not recognize the name of the =
paper=20
when I saw it. Perhaps some of you already have the book? =
When I=20
learned this, I went to the book and reviewed all of the =
chapters. I=20
discovered that the last 3 chapters are probably of more value to me =
than the=20
first three that I read. They are entitled, =93Western Saddles =
before the=20
Cowboy=94 by James S. Hutchins, =93Saddles of the Plains Indians=94 by =
John C.=20
Ewers, and "Description of Saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition" by Ann =
Nelson.=20
I am reading them now and will report back to you. I am =
not quite=20
sure how to get the pertinent information to all of you do not have =
the=20
book. I went on the internet in search of other copies and =
so far=20
I found only 4. They range in price from $35.00 to $100.00=20
ea.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Finally, I also wanted =
to mention=20
that in an effort to get a saddle that would fit my persona and time =
frame, I=20
acquired a replica of a Hussar saddle that was, according to Randy =
Steffen in=20
his book <B><U><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">The Horse Soldier =
1776-1943,=20
Vol I The Revolution, the War of 1812, the Early Frontier=20
1776-1850</SPAN></U></B>, =93used=85.during the Revolutionary War and =
by some=20
units of U.S. Dragoons during the second war with the British.=94, p.=20
49. A drawing of it is on page 50 of in Steffen=92s =
book. =20
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Louis =
Lasater</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"> also used=20
a drawing of Randy Steffen=92s on page 29 in his great article on =
Saddles in the=20
February, 2003, issue of =93The Tomahawk and Long Rife=94, which =
is similar=20
to my saddle. In addition, Russel H. Beatie in his book entitled =
<B><U><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Saddles</SPAN></U></B> on page =
50=20
states, =93From 1821 to 1844 traders from </SPAN></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Missouri</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">,=20
especially from </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Saint =
Louis</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">, traded=20
goods to </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Santa =
Fe</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"> and=20
brought back goods, among which saddles. Most of the trappers =
road flat=20
saddles or dragoon saddles, over which was thrown a buffalo robe, held =
in=20
place by a surcingle. Though this fact distresses some =
proponents of the=20
=93western cult,=94 it has been documented by paintings by artists who =
lived and=20
painted during the early 1800=92s.=94 Consequently, my rationale =
for using=20
it was that my persona could have been a former soldier who had the =
saddle and=20
took it with him west or he could have acquired it through =93War =
Surplus=94 like=20
we do today. However, after I had purchased the saddle, it has =
been=20
pointed out to me that all of my sources are secondary or thirdly =
sources, not=20
one is a primary source. While Beatie states there are paintings =
which=20
verify his conclusion, I am unaware of any. Therefore, I am =
still on the=20
search for primary documentation or another saddle which can be=20
documented. I also discovered that my saddle is not very good =
for=20
carrying all the stuff we need on historical treks. =
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">By the way, =
</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Bob</SPAN></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Schmidt =
made the=20
saddle and I have attached a picture of it if anyone is=20
interested.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Finally, the reason for =
all of=20
this is that I am eager to share any information I have. I am =
just not=20
sure the best way to do it. Any suggestions would be =
appreciated. =20
I am also looking for new primary sources. If anyone has any=20
suggestions, I would appreciate them as well. I know this is =
quite a=20
long message and thank you to anyone who had the necessary =
perseverance to=20
wade through it.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Sincerely,</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Jerry</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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