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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1359 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Thursday, May 27 2004 Volume 01 : Number 1359 In this issue: -áááááá MtMan-List: trumpline -áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Cinches -áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Cinches -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: trumpline -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: tumpline -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Clerk's Cap ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 13:57:50 -0500 From: "Frank Fusco" <Rifleman1776@cox-internet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: trumpline This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C443F2.9931A250 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Capt'n said <<I'm thinking that the question of whether they did or did not = do one thing or another may boil down to what was to be carried, what materials they = had to fabricate a carrying system and finally by what they might have seen = or used in their past that would suggest "this is how it should be done".>> He has to be correct in that approach. But it is not a complete = analysis of what the MM guys might have done in varying circumstances. Yes, it has been established that their travel included strings of = horses and mules to the carrying. But those are animals that are/were = subject to injury, starvation, disease, falling down cliffs, being = stolen or even eaten. If the trappers lost their pack animals they did not have the option = of calling a taxi with their cel phones or staying in one spot = permanently. Carrying their goods themselves had to have happened on occasion = whether they liked it or not. A trumpline does allow additional weight = to be carried and balanced more than just shoulder straps. And, a little = known fact about the human body. Neck muscles have the amazing = capability of strengthening more quickly than other muscles. It would = not take long for the neck to become adapted to the stress of a pull on = the forehead. Frank - ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C443F2.9931A250 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV> The Capt'n said</DIV> <DIV> <<I'm thinking that the = question of whether they did or did not do one thing or another may = boil down=20 to what was to be carried, what materials they had to fabricate a = carrying=20 system and finally by what they might have seen or used in their past = that=20 would suggest "this is how it should be done".>></DIV> <DIV> He has to be correct in that approach. But it is = not a=20 complete analysis of what the MM guys might have done in varying=20 circumstances.</DIV> <DIV> Yes, it has been established that their travel = included=20 strings of horses and mules to the carrying. But those are animals that = are/were=20 subject to injury, starvation, disease, falling down cliffs, being = stolen or=20 even eaten.</DIV> <DIV> If the trappers lost their pack animals they did = not=20 have the option of calling a taxi with their cel phones or staying in = one spot=20 permanently.</DIV> <DIV> Carrying their goods themselves had to have = happened on=20 occasion whether they liked it or not. A trumpline does allow additional = weight=20 to be carried and balanced more than just shoulder straps. And, a little = known=20 fact about the human body. Neck muscles have the amazing capability of=20 strengthening more quickly than other muscles. It would not take long = for the=20 neck to become adapted to the stress of a pull on the forehead.</DIV> <DIV>Frank </DIV></BODY></HTML> - ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C443F2.9931A250-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 13:13:35 -0600 From: "Jerry Bell" <jrbell@smartfella.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Cinches This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0083_01C443EC.6B9BEC20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I live in Salt Lake City. I just called the Museum. They are doing = some research for me and will call me back. When I learn something, I will = let you know. =20 Jerry =20 - -----Original Message----- From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Cheyenne Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 12:35 PM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Cinches =20 Jerry If I gett a chance I will do some research through my local college = (USU) and see if I can come up with something. I am in Utah so I might be = able to get some info from the Museum that Chance refers to. Wynn - --------- Original Message -------- From: hist_text@lists.xmission.com To: "hist_text@lists.xmission.com" <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Cinches Date: 27/05/04 13:14 I have been doing a lot of studying of saddles. I would love a copy of = the pages you have of this paper. How would I be able to get a complete = copy? =20 Jerry =20 - -----Original Message----- From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of CHANCE TIFFIE Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 6:38 AM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cinches =20 Wynn, The paper entitled"Description of saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition," = was written by Ann Nelson, Utah Museum of Natural History, University of = Utah, Salt Lake city, Utah 84112. The Renwick exhibition was a collection of saddles from the Department = of Anthropology, private owners, and the National Museum of History and Technology. As far as the research, these saddles were thoroughly examined by the, Anthropology Conservation Laboratory, and the Smithsonian Conservation Analytical Laboratory. Although the paper is entitled as mentioned, the upper right hand corner = of each page says"Smithsonian Studies in History and Technology." Unfortunately the paper I have is only a partial copy of the whole, omitting the native saddles, and others of later manufacture. If you = would like a copy of the pages that I have, I will be glad to send them to = you. =20 _____ =20 Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! <http://messenger.yahoo.com/> Messenger ________________________________________________ Message sent using pcu.net webmail 2.7.2 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html=20 - ------=_NextPart_000_0083_01C443EC.6B9BEC20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html> <head> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 10 (filtered)"> <style>  </style> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue> <div class=3DSection1> I live in Salt Lake City. I just = called the Museum. They are doing some research for me and will call me = back. When I learn something, I will let you know. Jerry -----Original = Message----- From: = owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Cheyenne Sent: Thursday, May 27, = 2004 12:35 PM To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: RE: MtMan-List: = Cinches Jerry If I gett a chance I will do some research through my local college (USU) and see if I can come up with something. I am in Utah = so I might be able to get some info from the Museum that Chance refers = to. Wynn <div> --------- Original Message -------- From: hist_text@lists.xmission.com To: "hist_text@lists.xmission.com" <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Cinches Date: 27/05/04 13:14 I have been = doing a lot of studying of saddles. I would love a copy of the pages you have = of this paper. How would I be able to get a complete = copy? Jerry</fon= t> -----Original = Message----- From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com = [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of CHANCE TIFFIE Sent: Thursday, May 27, = 2004 6:38 AM To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Cinches Wynn, The paper entitled"Description of = saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition," was written by Ann Nelson, Utah Museum of = Natural History, University of Utah, Salt Lake city, Utah = 84112. The Renwick exhibition was a collection of = saddles from the Department of Anthropology, private owners, and the National = Museum of History and Technology. As far as the research, these saddles were = thoroughly examined by the, Anthropology Conservation Laboratory, and the = Smithsonian Conservation Analytical Laboratory. Although the paper is entitled as mentioned, = the upper right hand corner of each page says"Smithsonian Studies in History = and Technology." Unfortunately the paper I have is only a partial = copy of the whole, omitting the native saddles, and others of later manufacture. If you would like a copy of the pages that I have, I will = be glad to send them to you. <div style=3D'margin-left:.5in'> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter = style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'> <hr size=3D1 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter> </div> </div> Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. <a href=3D"http://messenger.yahoo.com/">Try the all-new = Yahoo! Messenger</a> </div> ________________________________________________ Message sent using pcu.net webmail 2.7.2 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html </div> </body> </html> - ------=_NextPart_000_0083_01C443EC.6B9BEC20-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 13:15:25 -0600 From: "Jerry Bell" <jrbell@smartfella.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Cinches This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0088_01C443EC.ACEF18F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I hope I am not being redundant by sending this to the same person = twice, but I have been doing a lot of research on saddles and there is not a = lot of information out there. I would love a copy of this paper in any form I = can get it. I live in Salt Lake City so I just called the Museum and they = are doing some research for me. When I learn something, I will pass it = along. =20 Jerry =20 - -----Original Message----- From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of CHANCE TIFFIE Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 6:38 AM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cinches =20 Wynn, The paper entitled"Description of saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition," = was written by Ann Nelson, Utah Museum of Natural History, University of = Utah, Salt Lake city, Utah 84112. The Renwick exhibition was a collection of saddles from the Department = of Anthropology, private owners, and the National Museum of History and Technology. As far as the research, these saddles were thoroughly examined by the, Anthropology Conservation Laboratory, and the Smithsonian Conservation Analytical Laboratory. Although the paper is entitled as mentioned, the upper right hand corner = of each page says"Smithsonian Studies in History and Technology." Unfortunately the paper I have is only a partial copy of the whole, omitting the native saddles, and others of later manufacture. If you = would like a copy of the pages that I have, I will be glad to send them to = you. =20 _____ =20 Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! <http://messenger.yahoo.com/> Messenger - ------=_NextPart_000_0088_01C443EC.ACEF18F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html> <head> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 10 (filtered)"> <style>  </style> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue> <div class=3DSection1> I hope I am not being redundant by = sending this to the same person twice, but I have been doing a lot of research = on saddles and there is not a lot of information out there. I would = love a copy of this paper in any form I can get it. I live in = Salt Lake City so I just = called the Museum and they are doing some research for me. When I learn = something, I will pass it along. Jerry -----Original = Message----- From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com = [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of CHANCE TIFFIE Sent: Thursday, May 27, = 2004 6:38 AM To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Cinches Wynn, The paper entitled"Description of = saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition," was written by Ann Nelson, Utah Museum of = Natural History, University of Utah, Salt Lake city, Utah = 84112. The Renwick exhibition was a collection of = saddles from the Department of Anthropology, private owners, and the National = Museum of History and Technology. As far as the research, these saddles were = thoroughly examined by the, Anthropology Conservation Laboratory, and the = Smithsonian Conservation Analytical Laboratory. Although the paper is entitled as mentioned, = the upper right hand corner of each page says"Smithsonian Studies in History = and Technology." Unfortunately the paper I have is only a partial = copy of the whole, omitting the native saddles, and others of later manufacture. If you would like a copy of the pages that I have, I will = be glad to send them to you. <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter = style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'> <hr size=3D1 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter> </div> Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. <a href=3D"http://messenger.yahoo.com/">Try the all-new = Yahoo! Messenger</a> </div> </body> </html> - ------=_NextPart_000_0088_01C443EC.ACEF18F0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 16:51:14 -0700 From: "RP Lahti" <amm1719@charter.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trumpline This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01C4440A.D264F550 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <He has to be correct in that approach. But it is not a complete = analysis of what the MM guys might have done in varying circumstances.> Frank, Sure it is. First off I really do believe that a "tumpline" is not = used across the forehead (might be wrong about that but I don't think = so). That is called a "burden strap" and I believe it was commonly used = by un-horsed Indians, Eastern Indians, SW Indians, SE Indians, Voyageurs = with very heavy loads in particular.=20 A "tumpline" being used across the chest either from shoulder to = shoulder or at an angle might be more often used by a "hunter" or = traveler carrying a fairly light load (bedroll with a few personal = belongings inside) would be one choice for a "Mt. Man" caught afoot and = all depending on his load. And depending as I suggested on his = experience in the context of what he was familiar with or what he had = seen done in such circumstances. And again, on what he had to make up a = carrying system. There really is no diffinitive answer as to what they might have done = except in such rare instances where an individual such as our Mr. = Larpenuer actually recorded what he had and used.=20 Whether the neck muscles adapt fast or not is of less importance than = what our individual was familiar with. He might know to choose that or = he might not. YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01C4440A.D264F550 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT=20 face=3D"Microsoft Sans Serif"> </DIV> <DIV> <He has to be correct in that approach. But = it is=20 not a complete analysis of what the MM guys might have done in varying = circumstances.></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Frank,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure it is. First = off I really=20 do believe that a "tumpline" is not used across the forehead (might be = wrong=20 about that but I don't think so). That is called a "burden strap" and = I=20 believe it was commonly used by un-horsed Indians, Eastern Indians, SW = Indians, SE Indians, Voyageurs with very heavy loads in particular.=20 </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A "tumpline" being = used across=20 the chest either from shoulder to shoulder or at an angle might be = more often=20 used by a "hunter" or traveler carrying a fairly light load (bedroll = with a=20 few personal belongings inside) would be one choice for a "Mt. Man" = caught=20 afoot and all depending on his load. And depending as I suggested on = his=20 experience in the context of what he was familiar with or what he had = seen=20 done in such circumstances. And again, on what he had to make up a = carrying=20 system.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There really is no = diffinitive=20 answer as to what they might have done except in such rare instances = where an=20 individual such as our Mr. Larpenuer actually recorded what he had and = used.=20 </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whether the neck = muscles adapt=20 fast or not is of less importance than what our individual was = familiar with.=20 He might know to choose that or he might not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>YMOS Capt.=20 Lahti'</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> - ------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01C4440A.D264F550-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 17:11:27 -0700 From: JW Stephens <lray@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tumpline Cap'n Lahti wrote: > Something in [Iron Burner's] contribution below seems to > imply that a tumpline must be used across the forehead > like a "burden strap" which to my understanding is a very > "Indian" tool for carrying "burdens", usually depicted > as being used by women but perhaps also by men in > non-horse cultures such as in the SW tribes (four corners > area). I have read of the voyaguers using tumplined loads for portages, but I can't put my finger on just where I read it. I recall that I read it because I was struck by the size of the bundles that were portaged. One assortment was hefted, the othe was tumplined. Like 100 kilo of goods, over sketchy trails, usually inclined and exposed. Voyaguers didn't have horses, and weren't mountain men, but they were integral to the fur trade until Ashley took to the Platte and Sweetwater 'sted of the upper Missouri. Do you think that he suddenly forgot about years of working up the rivers with trade goods? Sometimes I wonder at how some views of the RM fur trade seem to grow it in a vacuum, shut off from the rest, and the history, of the fur trade. Short of those who came to the mountains from south of Santafee (thus excluding the St. Louis > Santafee traders) the youth of most of the mountain men had a large "on the river and riverfront" component. There they learned from what they saw, and if anyone posits that they didn't see voyaguers, well then they saw, and learned from others who did. > I've always used a "Tumpline" across my chest starting > from above one shoulder, then diagonally to below the > opposite arm. Not that it is very comfortable but surely > more so than across the forehead of one not used to such > a method and in both of those styles of course not as > comfortable as two straps from a "pack" or "knap sack" > style system. What's nice about a tumplined bundle in hilly country, is that it shifts easily from back, for going uphill, to front for downill, or above the head for moving through brush. > And Mr. Larpenter's description of "saddle bags" sounds > suspiciously like a "new improved haversack" but without > the two shoulder straps, also not a particularly > wonderful way of carrying a load on your person. Not all that bad, though, if packed well. My New Improved Haversack usually hold some small goods, but most are rolled into my blankets which the haversack buckles around. What makes it more tolerable is that the way that you "wear" the haversack can be adapted to deal with terrain, fatigue, and other burdens. It works well tumplined when heading uphill. Sorry that I still have not been able to provide the cite that the original poster asked for. It's an interesting subject, though. B'st'rd - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 07:11:13 -0500 From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clerk's Cap michael pierce #4 mill hollow eureka springs ark 72632 1-479-363-9495 thanks hawk On Thu, 27 May 2004 06:16:48 -0600 "Larry" <L.Renney@bresnan.net> writes: > send me your snail mail address. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Samuel > Keller > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 8:42 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Clerk's Cap > > > That would be great, I wear a 7 5/8 (swelled head) but > my wife wants to make more of them. > --- Larry <L.Renney@bresnan.net> wrote: > > which size do you need, I made up the three sizes > > with a seamstress friend > > if you need the patterns. > > > > larry > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #1359 ******************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.