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Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 17:46:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: CHANCE TIFFIE <amm1724@yahoo.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Cinches
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A paper I have, entitled "Desciption of saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition," shows some interesting saddles of our period of interest. All appear to have latigo straps for attaching the cinch, but only two still have the original cinch. A "mexican" saddle of about 1835 has it's cinch, which appears to be heavy fabric webbing, finished with leather ends, and chafe pads. The cinch rings are D shaped, with tongues. The other is a "hybrid" saddle of about 1840, from the lower Missouri river region. Concerning the cinch, it says, "Single center rigging employs a tanned leather cinch strap attached to the off side side-board beneath the outer skirt. On the on side, it is secured by a square buckle suspended from a leather loop attached to the sideboard beneath the outer skirt. A rectangular leather flap attached to the sideboard lies just beneath this loop and buckle."
This definitely does not tell the whole story, but I found it interesting, and thought I would pass it along.
My wife and I, have been using the cinches from our saddles to carry our burdens for years. Instead of across the forehead, I prefer to carry the load over the balls of my shoulders. The latigo cinch straps would work as well.
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<P>A paper I have, entitled "Desciption of saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition," shows some interesting saddles of our period of interest. All appear to have latigo straps for attaching the cinch, but only two still have the original cinch. A "mexican" saddle of about 1835 has it's cinch, which appears to be heavy fabric webbing, finished with leather ends, and chafe pads. The cinch rings are D shaped, with tongues. The other is a "hybrid" saddle of about 1840, from the lower Missouri river region. Concerning the cinch, it says, "Single center rigging employs a tanned leather cinch strap attached to the off side side-board beneath the outer skirt. On the on side, it is secured by a square buckle suspended from a leather loop attached to the sideboard beneath the outer skirt. A rectangular leather flap attached to the sideboard lies just beneath this loop and buckle."</P>
<P>This definitely does not tell the whole story, but I found it interesting, and thought I would pass it along.</P>
<P>My wife and I, have been using the cinches from our saddles to carry our burdens for years. Instead of across the forehead, I prefer to carry the load over the balls of my shoulders. The latigo cinch straps would work as well.</P><p>
<hr size=1><font face=arial size=-1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>Friends. Fun. <a href="http://messenger.yahoo.com/">Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger</a>
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Good extract for discussion. I have not yet found any real mention of HOW expeditions on foot carried their gear - the farthest they get is something like "hoisting our bundles on our backs, we resumed the trail". So a tumpline (no "r" by the way) is a very likely period solution.
What I find equally amazing is the MILEAGE - 1600 miles round trip in 3-4 months - works out to 15 miles day-in, day-out. This correlates with the 15-25 mile days reported by the expedition returning from Astoria after they lost their horses. These were hardy men!
Pat Quilter
- -----Original Message-----
From: Rick Williams [mailto:rick_williams@byu.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 8:17 AM
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trumpline
Crazy,
When you say cinch leather, are you implying that cinches were of leather? Would that be a single piece or several strands?
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of GazeingCyot@cs.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 10:31 PM
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trumpline
I will agree with Wynn for the most part they did use horses and Mules to pack there gear. But there were times when they had to take off on foot and pack there bedding and things. Zenas Leonard gives us this account from one of these times. They are starting out for Santafee almost 800 miles away on foot in January and they call me Crazy.
On the morning of the 14th, finding every thing in readiness for our Santafee trip, we set out, each man with his bedding, rifle and nine Beaver skins, packed upon his back; leaving four men only to take care of our merchandize, and the two mules. The beaver skins we took for the purpose of trading to the inhabitants of Santafee for horses, mules, &c. We appointed from the middle of April till the middle of may, as our time for return- ing; and if we did not return within that time, our four men were to wait no longer, but return to the mouth of the Laramies river, to meet the rest of the company.
Any way it does not say how they packed there gear but I would think a burden strap or trumpline like the Indians used made of rawhide or one made from a saddle chinch leather. Would be what they would have used because what ever they used to pack there gear would have had to been made from what ever they had at hand at the time.
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=279335315-26052004>Good extract for discussion. I have not yet found any real mention of HOW expeditions on foot carried their gear - the farthest they get is something like "hoisting our bundles on our backs, we resumed the trail". So a tumpline (no "r" by the way) is a very likely period solution. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=279335315-26052004>What I find equally amazing is the MILEAGE - 1600 miles round trip in 3-4 months - works out to 15 miles day-in, day-out. This correlates with the 15-25 mile days reported by the expedition returning from Astoria after they lost their horses. These were hardy men!</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">When you say cinch leather, are you implying that cinches were of leather? <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Would that be a single piece or several strands?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I will agree with Wynn for the most part they did use horses and Mules to pack there gear. But there were times when they had to take off on foot and pack there bedding and things. Zenas Leonard gives us this account from one of these times. They are starting out for Santafee almost 800 miles away on foot in January and they call me Crazy. <BR><BR>On the morning of the 14th, finding every thing in readiness for our Santafee trip, we set out, each man with his bedding, rifle and nine Beaver skins, packed upon his back; leaving four men only to take care of our merchandize, and the two mules. The beaver skins we took for the purpose of trading to the inhabitants of Santafee for horses, mules, &c. We appointed from the middle of April till the middle of may, as our time for return- ing; and if we did not return within that time, our four men were to wait no longer, but return to the mouth of the Laramies river, to meet the rest of the company. <BR><BR>Any way it does not say how they packed there gear but I would think a burden strap or trumpline like the Indians used made of rawhide or one made from a saddle chinch leather. Would be what they would have used because what ever they used to pack there gear would have had to been made from what ever they had at hand at the time. <BR><BR>This my take on this. <BR>Crazy Cyot <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 22:27:11 -0600
From: "Wynn Ormond" <cheyenne@pcu.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trumpline
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I am glad that some of you have picked this subject up and expanded it. =
I think my answer, although for the most part accurate, was a bit =
cavilier. The point being that burdens were sometimes carried on men's =
backs and those men could easily been familiar with tumplines from their =
earlier life. It would be much easier to justify something that easily =
manufactured in a make do situation than to justify a nice framed pack =
or pack basket.
Another option is a modified panyard. That's the pair of bags that hang =
on the side of a mule. The loops can be modified to make it serviceable =
on a persons back.
Pat, not to suggest that some of those boys weren't tough but if I =
recall Lenards group had no idea how far they had to go and never made =
it anyway. Am I wrong here?
Wynn Ormond
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Pat Quilter=20
To: 'hist_text@lists.xmission.com'=20
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 9:59 AM
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trumpline
Good extract for discussion. I have not yet found any real mention of =
HOW expeditions on foot carried their gear - the farthest they get is =
something like "hoisting our bundles on our backs, we resumed the =
trail". So a tumpline (no "r" by the way) is a very likely period =
solution.=20
What I find equally amazing is the MILEAGE - 1600 miles round trip in =
3-4 months - works out to 15 miles day-in, day-out. This correlates with =
the 15-25 mile days reported by the expedition returning from Astoria =
after they lost their horses. These were hardy men!
Pat Quilter
-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Williams [mailto:rick_williams@byu.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 8:17 AM
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trumpline
Crazy,
When you say cinch leather, are you implying that cinches were of =
leather? Would that be a single piece or several strands?
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
[mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of =
GazeingCyot@cs.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 10:31 PM
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trumpline
=20
I will agree with Wynn for the most part they did use horses and =
Mules to pack there gear. But there were times when they had to take off =
on foot and pack there bedding and things. Zenas Leonard gives us this =
account from one of these times. They are starting out for Santafee =
almost 800 miles away on foot in January and they call me Crazy.=20
On the morning of the 14th, finding every thing in readiness for our =
Santafee trip, we set out, each man with his bedding, rifle and nine =
Beaver skins, packed upon his back; leaving four men only to take care =
of our merchandize, and the two mules. The beaver skins we took for the =
purpose of trading to the inhabitants of Santafee for horses, mules, &c. =
We appointed from the middle of April till the middle of may, as our =
time for return- ing; and if we did not return within that time, our =
four men were to wait no longer, but return to the mouth of the Laramies =
river, to meet the rest of the company.=20
Any way it does not say how they packed there gear but I would think =
a burden strap or trumpline like the Indians used made of rawhide or one =
made from a saddle chinch leather. Would be what they would have used =
because what ever they used to pack there gear would have had to been =
made from what ever they had at hand at the time.=20
This my take on this.=20
Crazy Cyot=20
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