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Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 12:45:31 -0500
From: MunevarL@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection
Thanks to all on the list that have contributed to the firearm suggestion, both fur trade era and modern, for use as protection from bear and mountain lion protection. I appreciate the collective wisdom. If we constrain ourselves to the period correct blackpowder suggestions, it seems like there is some consensus that the trade gun would be the appropriate choice loaded with "buck and ball". Some have suggested (Crazy Cyot) a 12 gauge trade gun in percussion.
A few more questions if you can tolerate the novice? If not I will understand:
Are trade guns by definition smoothbore? And if so does that mean that you can shoot both round ball or buck shot (shotgun shot) in these? Are they flintlock only?
When we say "buck and ball" does that mean that you are actually loading both round ball and buckshot at the same time?
For the bear/lion protection use that I have as a premise for this discussion, was the trade gun recommended over a large bore rifle because a "buck and ball" load will has a wider spread or effective range(I know this is not the right term, but hopefully you get the point)?
Finally, any suggestions on who offers trade guns that fit this bill. I had one suggestion for a custom trade gun (is that the same as a fusil?) maker Danny Caywood? Any other good trade guns manufacturer?
Thanks for your patience with me.
Lou
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Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 10:37:27 -0800
From: "Michael Lessman" <tac2cool@charter.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection
Historically when one sees the reference to "gun" (i.e. NW gun/Trade gun)
they are generally referring to a smoothbore.
Yes, you can shoot both round ball or shot.....seperately or at the same
time, which opens up an entirely new subject of the loading of buck and
ball.
Trade guns are not flintlock only and can be had in percussion also,
although most tradeguns seen, traditional come in flint.
A trade gun has the advantage of firing multitude of fairly large
projectiles at the same time, which would be considered a large advantage
over a rifled gun firing a single round ball.
There are several makers of trade guns, Caywood, Northstar West, TVM are
three that immediately come to mind, but if you're not in a rush a custom
builder could also fit the bill.
Of course a good 10 gauge double barrel percussion gun from Cabelas would
also be very good bear medicine.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <MunevarL@aol.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection
> Thanks to all on the list that have contributed to the firearm suggestion,
both fur trade era and modern, for use as protection from bear and mountain
lion protection. I appreciate the collective wisdom. If we constrain
ourselves to the period correct blackpowder suggestions, it seems like there
is some consensus that the trade gun would be the appropriate choice loaded
with "buck and ball". Some have suggested (Crazy Cyot) a 12 gauge trade gun
in percussion.
>
> A few more questions if you can tolerate the novice? If not I will
understand:
>
> Are trade guns by definition smoothbore? And if so does that mean that
you can shoot both round ball or buck shot (shotgun shot) in these? Are
they flintlock only?
>
> When we say "buck and ball" does that mean that you are actually loading
both round ball and buckshot at the same time?
>
> For the bear/lion protection use that I have as a premise for this
discussion, was the trade gun recommended over a large bore rifle because a
"buck and ball" load will has a wider spread or effective range(I know this
is not the right term, but hopefully you get the point)?
>
> Finally, any suggestions on who offers trade guns that fit this bill. I
had one suggestion for a custom trade gun (is that the same as a fusil?)
maker Danny Caywood? Any other good trade guns manufacturer?
>
> Thanks for your patience with me.
>
> Lou
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
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Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:16:55 -0700 (MST)
From: beaverboy@sofast.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection
There always seem to be two groups on the Grizz gun arguement.
The group that has never seen Grizz or had encounters with them and
they always seem to be the ones who suggest wearing bear bells, bear
repellant, and perhaps a belt gun.
Then there are the group that have run into Grizz or had encounters
with them and they all seem to suggest you pack a big fricken gun at
all times in Grizz country. And not a single shot! If you don't kill
that Grizz with one shot and he figures out who shot him and he gets a
hold of you...!
Remember the scene in Jaws when the sheriff finally sees the big shark
up close? The first words out of his mouth are "We need a bigger
boat!". Kind of the same deal.
I take a few hikes every year in Grizz country up on the Front Range
and run into other hikers. One guy once asked my why I was packing a
.12ga pump. He didn't think I should worry about Grizz attacks. I just
politely said he could do what he wants and I'll do what I want.
I even hiked with a group of Sierra Club members who were taking a hike
on the Front. Boy they freaked out when I strapped on my .44! They
tried to talk me out of taking it. I told her it was National Forest in
Grizz country and I'll do whatever I want. They got over it. You can
still enjoy Mother Nature while packing some heavy firepower.
Hey, you want to pack a single shot or flinter in Grizz country more
power to you. But I bet your opinion changes after you run into a Grizz
or cut some fresh Grizz tracks! It does make you feel alive! I hate
camping and hiking in Grizz country but I'm glad we still have lots of
Grizz in the lower 48.
I'd worry more about a cat sneaking up on you then I would a black bear.
>>Those Mountain Men back then faced more Griz and cats in a years time
>> then any of us will ever face in our life times and they >did it with
>> muzzleloading flint locks.
>
> Not to be argumentative here, CC... but that is the point... "Back
> Then"... This is 2004, and granted, we are trying to portray that time
> frame, but there is no sense in taking chances. I like the dbl bbl shotgun
> idea... no having to rack the slide for the second shot... but I still
> like the idea of my .44 Mag on my hip. True, it may be only for my peace
> of mind, but they... thats what counts... <grins> In all my treks in the
> woods hunting here in SouthEastern WV, I have only seen one small (200-250
> lb) black bear, and no big cats. But just the same, I still had my .44 Mag
> available...
>
> Regards,
>
> Ad Miller
>
>
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Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:26:58 -0700 (MST)
From: beaverboy@sofast.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection
> Sure some got chewed up but more of them died by drowning then by bears,
> cats or Indians.
Crazy,
Are you sure of this statistic? More of them died by drowning then
by Indians?
I can't think of one MM that drowned right off the top of my head
but can think of many that died at the hands of Indians. Two alone
from the L&C expedition and they paddled 4000 miles of river
safely. Potts was paddling a canoe when the Blackfeet killed him. I
don't think he was worried about drowning.
Have you researched this?
bb
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Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 15:55:34 EST
From: LivingInThePast@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection
- -------------------------------1078260934
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 3/2/2004 12:17:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
beaverboy@sofast.net writes:
I'd worry more about a cat sneaking up on you then I would a black bear
Had a discussion with a Ranger here in So Cal re: defense from large cats and
Black Bear (certainly nowhere near the danger or risk of a Grizz) and she
recommended an air horn, as she had seen it used VERY effectively against both
Mountain Lion and Blackies.
As I was camped in a YMCA camp with 180 children, doing living history
presentations, I didn't want to keep my .44 special at hand, so went to a local
sporting goods store and got a small air horn, which does make one hellova lot of
noise. I also gave one to the Camp Director to keep for use in the future.
Even though there was plenty of sightings and tracks, I've always had a
question of the effectiveness of noise as a deterrent. Anybody have any experiences
2px solid"><FONT face=3DArial>I'd worry more about a cat sneaking up on you=20=
then I would a black bear</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#000080>Had a discussion w=
ith a Ranger here in So Cal re: defense from large cats and Black Bear (cert=
ainly nowhere near the danger or risk of a Grizz) and she recommended an air=
horn, as she had seen it used VERY effectively against both Mountain Lion a=
nd Blackies.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#000080></FONT></STRONG>&n=
bsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#000080>As I was camp=
ed in a YMCA camp with 180 children, doing living history presentations=
, I didn't want to keep my .44 special at hand, so went to a local sporting=20=
goods store and got a small air horn, which does make one hellova lot of noi=
se. I also gave one to the Camp Director to keep for use in the future.=
</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#000080></FONT></STRONG>&n=
bsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#000080>Even though there=20=
was plenty of sightings and tracks, I've always had a question of the effect=
iveness of noise as a deterrent. </FONT></STRONG><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Comic=
Sans MS" color=3D#000080>Anybody have any experiences or thoughts in this r=
egard?</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#000080></FONT></STRONG>&n=
bsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#000080>Barney</FONT></STR=
ONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#000080></FONT></STRONG>&n=
bsp;</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
- -------------------------------1078260934--
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Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:31:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Larson Harsey <camperfox428@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection
- --0-636015978-1078263091=:24168
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I hit the wrong button and deleted the message from "Livining the Past" before I could respond. A gun makes a loud noise if you want also, plus the second shot has something to go with it if the bear hasn't read all the studies on what they pose to do when they here loud noises, I here some of them can't read at all............... Nature has no rules.
I've hunted black bear on the North Carolina coast near the other banks. Two sows we took in the fall a couple of years ago were 275 to 300 pounds each. The brush is thicker than anything I have ever seen before. The bears are so quite, if they wanted you on foot, there would be no chance for ya. The boars get up to 700 lbs with 500 lbs being real common. The record was something like 850+/- a few years ago, lots of good habitat in that area. I always had a .44 mag. right in front with FMJs just for comfort. My .54 flint rifle was always ready, but I was real glad I had my ruger when I turned around while slipping up the cut and saw 2 bears standing not 35 yards away, looking at me, right where I had walked thru. Yes makes living real exciting, you can almost hear the dust fall, things get so clear and quiet. Just my 2 cents. Can you attach pictures to this list? I have one of a sow and cub I took while I was riding under a tripod stand on a 4 wheeler all alone. They
ain't scar't for nothing. A picture is worth a few hundred words at least. Exciting indeed!
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- --0-636015978-1078263091=:24168
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
<DIV>I hit the wrong button and deleted the message from "Livining the Past" before I could respond. A gun makes a loud noise if you want also, plus the second shot has something to go with it if the bear hasn't read all the studies on what they pose to do when they here loud noises, I here some of them can't read at all............... Nature has no rules. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I've hunted black bear on the North Carolina coast near the other banks. Two sows we took in the fall a couple of years ago were 275 to 300 pounds each. The brush is thicker than anything I have ever seen before. The bears are so quite, if they wanted you on foot, there would be no chance for ya. The boars get up to 700 lbs with 500 lbs being real common. The record was something like 850+/- a few years ago, lots of good habitat in that area. I always had a .44 mag. right in front with FMJs just for comfort. My .54 flint rifle was always ready, but I was real glad I had my ruger when I turned around while slipping up the cut and saw 2 bears standing not 35 yards away, looking at me, right where I had walked thru. Yes makes living real exciting, you can almost hear the dust fall, things get so clear and quiet. Just my 2 cents. Can you attach pictures to this list? I have
one of a sow and cub I took while I was riding under a tripod stand on a 4 wheeler all alone. They ain't scar't for nothing. A picture is worth a few hundred words at least. Exciting indeed!<BR></DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
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Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 17:03:57 -0500
From: MunevarL@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection
I took a look at the Caywood Guns website and it looks like the majority of the guns are sold with barrel sizes of between 20 - 28 gauge. What gauge smoothbore trade gun should I be looking for? Isn't their an inverse relationship between guage and caliber (the larger the caliber the lower the guage). I thought somebody a 10-12 guage trade gun? What am I missing?
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Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 15:20:40 -0700 (MST)
From: beaverboy@sofast.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection
Historically most trade guns were .28 ga. But most today use a .20 gage.
You can get a .12 ga trade gun made out of a Brown Bess, Dixie and a few
others sell them. .20ga is 20 balls per pound of lead. It is also a .62
caliber. .12ga is 12 balls per pound and I think .75 caliber.
I have used a Northstar West trade gun for 6 years and it has never let
me down. Danny Caywood knows his stuff too. Either one is a fine
choice.
bb
> I took a look at the Caywood Guns website and it looks like the majority
> of the guns are sold with barrel sizes of between 20 - 28 gauge. What
> gauge smoothbore trade gun should I be looking for? Isn't their an
> inverse relationship between guage and caliber (the larger the caliber the
> lower the guage). I thought somebody a 10-12 guage trade gun? What am I
> missing?
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
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Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 17:20:55 EST
From: LivingInThePast@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection
- -------------------------------1078266055
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 3/2/2004 1:32:38 PM Pacific Standard Time,
camperfox428@yahoo.com writes:
A gun makes a loud noise if you want also, plus the second shot has something
to go with it if the bear hasn't read all the studies on what they pose to do
when they here loud noises
I totally agree, but as I was camped in a YMCA camp with 180+ kids and staff,
I wasn't comfortable about discharging a firearm for any reason.
Although the lady Ranger was very positive about it (the air horn), I was
curious if anybody else was aware of this solution.
I personally prefer my 2" barrel .44 Special, loaded with Glazers, FMJ's,
Hollow Points, Black Hornets or any other 'wall-knocker downers' in it! ;)
<BR> Let me get this right what you and Beaverboy are saying here. You=
say:
<BR> Flint is more reliable than percussion but shouldn't even be a consider=
ation in bear country. Go 12 ga.pump. With the plug out and slugs.
<BR>
<BR>There are bears in the woods and that is where we go out and do our prim=
itive camps. So it ok for us to use modern guns at these camps now? Any more=
Grizz are getting to be in a lot of places here in Idaho, Wyoming and Monta=
na so we need to take modern guns when we go into the woods to do our primit=
ive camps for our protection?!!!
<BR>When Muzzle loaders were all that the men that we are trying to emulate=20=
had for there protection and they faced many more dangers then we do to day=20=
in the woods!
<BR>You are saying we need to be taking modern guns to go in to the woods no=
w to protect our selves with when we try and emulate them?
<BR>As for Flint locks being more reliable then Percussion all I can say is=20=
BS why do you think that the cap lock replaced the Flint Lock, they were MOR=
E reliable.
<BR>Some times this list can really get out there on some of this stuff.
<BR>Crazy Cyot</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 17:26:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Lee Teter <leeteter@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Firearm for Bear/Mountain Lion Protection
- --0-406354187-1078277173=:8306
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
There are other things to consider.
Black bear are not grizzly bears. If a black bear attacks assume it wants to eat you. Fight back even if you don't have a gun. Even a child has been known to fight a black bear off; it seems they don't like their supper to squirm around so much. On the other hand a researcher in Canada played dead for a black bear and had all the flesh of both legs and most of one arm eaten away before she figured out playing dead didn't work with blacks. She survived. One arm.
Grizzly seems to be happy to let sleeping dogs lie. They like to fight. So don't squirm so much, they might think they can get a fight out of you. I doubt anyone I know could pin a griz anyway.
There are other things you won't hear talked about much. I'd hate to be female in grizzly country. Women have "issues" that bears react to. Even without that issue, they smell female. And sex is a no no in griz country. According to one researcher, attacks are often caused by a bear who thinks someone is encroaching on his territory, and I'm not talking about terrain. He said most couples who are attacked were "engaged".
The noise thing might work for black bear but I wouldn't trust it with griz. In the early years of the reintroduction program researchers were dropped by helicopter. Policy was to hit the ground running and climb a nearby tree until the noisy chopper left. It seems griz looked at the noise as a challenge. Pioneer researcher, John M. told me about at least one researcher who didn't get to a tree fast enough. Another thing I wonder about is the head wounds found in griz attacks; are they trying to stop the noise by attacking its source? I think if I get attacked I'll try to keep quiet as well as motionless. Could be difficult, but I doubt anyone will be around to hear me anyway.
Never shot a griz. If I have to, I think I'm with John Kramer. Big ball, buckshot and lots of powder. It will at least hurt him. If he kills me it will be better than a car wreck. I hate automobiles.
Lee
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<P>Black bear are not grizzly bears. If a black bear attacks assume it wants to eat you. Fight back even if you don't have a gun. Even a child has been known to fight a black bear off; it seems they don't like their supper to squirm around so much. On the other hand a researcher in Canada played dead for a black bear and had all the flesh of both legs and most of one arm eaten away before she figured out playing dead didn't work with blacks. She survived. One arm. </P>
<P>Grizzly seems to be happy to let sleeping dogs lie. They like to fight. So don't squirm so much, they might think they can get a fight out of you. I doubt anyone I know could pin a griz anyway.</P>
<P>There are other things you won't hear talked about much. I'd hate to be female in grizzly country. Women have "issues" that bears react to. Even without that issue, they smell female. And sex is a no no in griz country. According to one researcher, attacks are often caused by a bear who thinks someone is encroaching on his territory, and I'm not talking about terrain. He said most <U>couples</U> who are attacked were "engaged". </P>
<P> </P>
<P>The noise thing might work for black bear but I wouldn't trust it with griz. In the early years of the reintroduction program researchers were dropped by helicopter. Policy was to hit the ground running and climb a nearby tree until the noisy chopper left. It seems griz looked at the noise as a challenge. Pioneer researcher, John M. told me about at least one researcher who didn't get to a tree fast enough. Another thing I wonder about is the head wounds found in griz attacks; are they trying to stop the noise by attacking its source? I think if I get attacked I'll try to keep quiet as well as motionless. Could be difficult, but I doubt anyone will be around to hear me anyway.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Never shot a griz. If I have to, I think I'm with John Kramer. Big ball, buckshot and lots of powder. It will at least hurt him. If he kills me it will be better than a car wreck. I hate automobiles. </P>
<P> </P>
<P>Lee</P>
<P> </P>
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