ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/hist_text/archive/v01.n130

Internet Message Format | 1998-08-26 | 21KB

From: [e-mail] (hist_text-digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #130
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


hist_text-digest       Thursday, August 27 1998       Volume 01 : Number 130




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 18:43:17 -0600
From: "Scott Singer - \"Spinner\"" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or outside?

Thanks Roger, I'm ready to set right to work now!  I'll share any
developments or observations from this experience with this list.
- -------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
     http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site
     http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833
- ---------------------------------------------------------------


- -----Original Message-----
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Friday, August 21, 1998 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or outside?


>I thought you might find the directions on the list but I guess not. It was
my
>friend Tom Crooks that wrote that article. Basically what you do is wet the
>leather and stretch it out on a very smooth piece of plywood hair side up.
Let
>it dry thoroughly. Put a sheet rock sanding sheet (used to sand off the
extra
>joint compound at the seams) in a palm sander not a belt or rotary sander!
Take
>your time and go over the hair side of the leather until you have roughed
it up
>a bit. You want to scuff up the scarf skin but stop before you sand through
the
>leather. If you are careful and use a palm sander or do it by hand with a
>sanding block, you should not have any trouble. Get me off line if you have
any
>other questions. I remain....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>Mill, Kirk wrote:
>
>> The April 97 issue of Muzzleblasts describes this method. Basically it
>> involves using a power sander to remove the scarfskin of commercially
tanned
>> hides.
>>
>>
>> Kirk Mill
>>
>>         -----Original Message-----
>>         From:   Scott Singer - "Spinner"
[SMTP:[e-mail]]
>>         Sent:   Friday, August 21, 1998 2:09 AM
>>         To:     [e-mail]
>>         Subject:        Re: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or
outside?
>>
>>         I wasn't able to find the reference you mentioned - my patience
wore
>> out
>>         before I got through all of the most recent posting archives.
Can
>> anyone
>>         share the details on this process for me?
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:03:33 -0700
From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns, knives, and such

Museum of the Fur Trade does have this page as part of the Chamber of Commerce
ad for Chadron http://www.chadron.com/furtrade/index.htm
but it doesn't give their address.
I know it was posted before so I guess it's off to the archives to look for it!

Medicine Bear

Dean Rudy wrote:

> At 07:13 PM 8/24/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >Thanks for the info guys. Does the Museum of The Fur Trade have a website?
> >Or could some kind soul give us the address? I know it is in Chadron,
> >Nebraska but beyond that I'm lost. Texas is a fer piece from Nebraska.
> >Thanks,
> >Pendleton

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:06:30 -0700
From: "John Diestler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Note on Oak bark tanning

Ron Valley wrote:
>=20
> Anyhow, there have many good notes submitted on the tanning process and
> recent reference to the use of oak bark (and others) when 'bark tanning=
' a
> hide=85


Tim Severin, historian/author of "The St. Brendan Voyage," tried to recre=
ate
the old Irish leather boat technology. After testing dozens of tanning
processes, the only one that stood up to the constant salt water environm=
ent
was "oak bark" tanning. Severin made the point that the original manuscri=
pts
had specified "oak bark" tanning, with lots of sheeps wool (lanolin) grea=
se.
Severin used this and other specifications to prove that the St Brendan
manuscript was a factual account of sailing from Ireland to Newfoundland =
in
leather boats more than 400 years before Columbus.

I've often read that the best moccasins were made from the tops of old
teepees, smoked from years of use.  I wonder if prior to the smoking, wha=
t was
the standard tanning process for teepee skins?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:07:17 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Addison O. Miller)
Subject: MtMan-List: Vacation

I want to thank all of you that sent me ideas for places to see when I went
on my trip to the Dakotas and Nebraska.  Took 12 rolls of film (2d mortgage
on house to get film processed), went to Mt Rushmore, MFT, Black Hills, MANY
little museums in the areas, stopped and read hundreds of Historic Site
markers, Custer State PArk, Cave of the Winds, Platte River area, Ft
Robinson, etc... etc... etc...  Never knew so much could be crammed into 8
days.  Put 2000 miles on a rental car!!, and still managed to see bunches of
stuff.

If was really almost a "religious" experience to sit by the Platte River and
know that this was where "they" had travelled. Spent time just contemplating
the scenery and wondering if they had camped where I was sitting.

Museum of the Fur Trade is GREAT!!!  I had a major question answered there
regarding "trade" guns with rear sights.  Yeppers... they have several on
their shelves.  Took pictures and will be putting it on my web site in the
near future.  NMLRA, check your history!!! <grin>

Thanks again....

Addison Miller

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:42:01 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives, guns

Allen Chronister <[e-mail]> wrote, in part:

>>1.  A question was asked about why there is so
little detail in fur trade records about guns... AFC
and other "invoice" records from the 1810-1850
period... contain a tremendous amount of information,
but in very, very sketchy form.  For trade guns,
(fusees), for example, the only detail commonly
given is barrel length, and sometimes not even
that...This is all because these invoice records were
only intended to be invoices and nothing more. <<

Well said! This is also true of the North West
Company and Hudson's Bay Company inventories
I have seen from the 1774-1821 period.
I have seen no records of either company selling
rifles.

>>2.  There is a large body of mis-information
around about knives of the Rocky Mountain fur
trade (1810-40 period)....The truth seems to be that the
vast, vast majority of knives available to and
used by the mountain trappers were the common
commercially manufactured knives of the time.
Those were in three primary forms:  butcher,
cartouche and scalper (four, if you include the
common folding knife.) <<

Again, I think Allen is right on here. A large variety
of knives appear on HBC & NWC inventory
lists, but, like the guns, we get few details. Some
examples: "large knives", "small knives", "cartouche
knives", "buck handled knives", "dags", "butchers knives",
"roach knives", "buck hand[led?] clasping knife",
"iron knives", "scalpers", "steel daggers", "iron daggers",
"yew-handled knives", "women's knives", "common
clasp knives", "double-bladed knives", "eyed dags",
"box[wood] handled butcher knives", "bayonetts",
& "crooked knives". The most commonly-listed knives
were large knives, small knives, clasp knives, & dags.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:25:56 -0500
From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Museum of the Fur Trade Web Page

I found this:

http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous/museum.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:37:03 +0100
From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Museum Fur Trade

Someone requested info on contacting the Museum of
the Fur Trade.
The last address I had was:
MFT
6321 Hwy. 20
Chadron, NE  69337
phone:  [phone]

Allen Chronister

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 16:17:17 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns, knives, and such

MUSEUM OF FUR TRADE
HC 74 BOX18
CHADRON, NEBRASKA 69337
- -JOE

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 08:33:16 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain College

What are the dates for this year's Rocky Mountain College?

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:09:55 -0700
From: [e-mail] (john c funk,jr)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives etc.

HBC...&...Allen,

Thanks for the response.  I will look up the articles.

Your right, Allen.  The back issues of the  Fur Trade Quarterly are well
worth the essence...which isn't much compared to the value of the
information they contain.  A couple of years back the back issues ran, I
think, something like $140.00 American) which included a master index.

Again, thanks for the info....

John Funk

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:00:24 -0700
From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Redwood Chips...

Ron and Old Fox:
    Sure appreciate you getting me on the right track. Used to live in
Modesto, California heart of walnut country with plenty of oaks also. Now am
in mountains of central oregon so will try the bees was or sno-seal on my
mocs.
    Thansk again -  Gail
=======================================
- -----Original Message-----
From: Ron Valley <[e-mail]>
To: 'hist_text' <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 8:22 PM
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Redwood Chips...


>Gail,
>
>I'm sorry, but I deleted the note(s) earlier about using red wood chips for
>dying leather.  I believe that it came over the HIST TEXT thread.  I
>personally don't understand why someone would use lawn & garden chips (that
>may themselves, have been DYED to help make them a deeper color) to dye
>their leather, mocs or anything else... but whatever.  It is certainly my
>choice and perhaps my loss, and at the risk of offending someone (and I
know
>that I will) I usually scan over this kind of advise rather quickly, or
>don't read the entire note as is the case here.  So, my apologizes to you
if
>I'm out of line.
>
>Anyhow, there have many good notes submitted on the tanning process and
>recent reference to the use of oak bark (and others) when 'bark tanning' a
>hide, in the HIST TEXT.  All good information for reference if considering
>tanning a hide.  But as for changing the color of pre-existing commercially
>tanned (and perhaps made) mocs... since you have commercial leather, you
may
>have to use a leather dye to change the color of your mocs, if that is what
>you want.  Or, simply USE them and keep them well waxed!  The "yellow"
color
>of the leather will age rather quickly with use and change to a much darker
>color in the process.  Bees wax and tallow or a good commercial product
like
>"sno-seal" works very well.
>
>Oh, by the way, I noticed in the header of your message that you (or
perhaps
>someone before you, if you replied to a previous message) addressed your
>attached message to the "American Mountain Men".  Someone apparently has
>that 'name' typed in their "address book" as a quick reference or name to
>'click on' when e-mailing.   You most likely already realize this, but
while
>many of the subscribers who chat in the HIST TEXT are indeed members of the
>AMM, not all who subscribe or write and express their views there are
>members (of the AMM).  I find that most of the good folks who submit their
>personal experiences, reference materials and the like have been
>re-enacting, attending rendezvous and have been passionately involved with
>this era of America's History for many, many years.  Whether their interest
>is recreational and / or professional, they possess a wealth of experience
&
>knowledge and I personally owe them my gratitude & thanks for all of the
>invaluable direction and information I've received from this file.
>
>I hope this has been of some help to you and good luck with your mocs.
>
>Ron  Valley
>AMM  # 1353
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gail Carbiener [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Monday, August 24, 1998 3:04 PM
> To: American Mountain Men
> Subject: MtMan-List: Redwood Chips...
>
> I really am confused.... if I want to dye commerical yellow leather
>already
> made mocs with the redwood chip routine - what do I do?
>
> Gail

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:03:05 +0100
From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: knives, tipis

Angela Gottfried's recent message about knives
points out another problem with invoice records,
which is the use of slang, trade and common names
for various items.  This makes deciphering very
difficult at times when a very wide array of terms
is used to describe blankets, cloth, knives and
other items.  In addition, there are differences
between the terms uxed in American company records
and those used in the HBC (of the same period).
The "womens knives" noted by Angela for example
could be the Ulus used in the far north, which
would not show up on American lists.
American lists, too, have knives listed only by
the handle material (such as buck, bone, wood,
green bone, etc) but without noting the blade
style.  My guess is that they were mostly scalpers
or cartouche knives.
"Dags" were the beaver-tail stabber knives that
were popular with the Native folks.  They were
sold hafted and un-hafted.  A "bayonette" was a
type of dag, but with a long triangular blade.  An
"eyed dag" I believe, was the hafted dag knife
with black horn scales inlaid with brass circles
("eyes").  For some reason, some writers have
chosen to ascribe all kinds of unlikely meanings
to the term "eyed dag."  Clasp or clasping knives
were folding knives, and double blaked knives were
folders with two blades.  A roach knife was "roach
belly" shape blade which is sort of like a more
rounded scalper.
Also, someone mentioned mocs made of old tipi top
material.  The leather from worn out lodge covers
was a prime material used by Plains women to make
clothing, including mocs, and upon  which to do
bead and quillwork.  It was a dark chocolate
brown, soft, flexible and felt-like.  Much old
beadwork is done on this material, and you can see
it if you look closely, especially if you can see
the back side.  All the ethnographic accounts, as
far as I have ever read, do not describe any
special process for tanning lodge skins.  ie, they
were "brain tanned" like everything else.  They
were usually cow skins that were thinned in all
thick areas to make them as uniform as possible.
Allen Chronister

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:07:17 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Charlie P. Webb)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain College

HBC,
I apologize for doing this twice, but those of us with CRS
usually don't get out all the information the first time <<<ggg>>>
    For the 1999 Rocky Mountain College dates, e-mail
John Switzer Booshway,  at [e-mail]   The date as
for 1999 is set as well as the location.  I know the location, but
not the dates, John will help you.
C Webb
AKA Old Coyote

(Henry B. Crawford) writes:
>What are the dates for this year's Rocky Mountain College?
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 17:02:56 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vacation

addison please post your website location so that we can check out the
pictures---especially the interested in the photoes of the trade
guns---would pay for a copy of prints of the guns---especially if you
have any with names or background info---
could also use digital copies---on disk---
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:07:17 -0400 [e-mail] (Addison O. Miller)
writes:
>I want to thank all of you that sent me ideas for places to see when I
>went
>on my trip to the Dakotas and Nebraska.  Took 12 rolls of film (2d
>mortgage
>on house to get film processed), went to Mt Rushmore, MFT, Black
>Hills, MANY
>little museums in the areas, stopped and read hundreds of Historic
>Site
>markers, Custer State PArk, Cave of the Winds, Platte River area, Ft
>Robinson, etc... etc... etc...  Never knew so much could be crammed
>into 8
>days.  Put 2000 miles on a rental car!!, and still managed to see
>bunches of
>stuff.
>
>If was really almost a "religious" experience to sit by the Platte
>River and
>know that this was where "they" had travelled. Spent time just
>contemplating
>the scenery and wondering if they had camped where I was sitting.
>
>Museum of the Fur Trade is GREAT!!!  I had a major question answered
>there
>regarding "trade" guns with rear sights.  Yeppers... they have several
>on
>their shelves.  Took pictures and will be putting it on my web site in
>the
>near future.  NMLRA, check your history!!! <grin>
>
>Thanks again....
>
>Addison Miller
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:12:49 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Madison Grant Books

Does anyone know of a source for Madison Grants books on hunting pouches and
home spun knives?  I tried Amazon and they did not have them.  James Townsend
used to carry them, but don't list them in the catalog anymore.  Any help
would be appreciated.  Thanks.

Grant

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 00:58:21 -0600
From: "Scott Singer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain College

Rocky Mountain College has already passed.  It was the first week of August.

- -------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
     http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site
     http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833
- ---------------------------------------------------------------


- -----Original Message-----
From: Henry B. Crawford <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 7:58 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain College


>What are the dates for this year's Rocky Mountain College?
>
>HBC
>
>*****************************************
>Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
>[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
>806/742-2442           Box 43191
>FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
>******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 08:52:12 +0100
From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: madison grant books

just after I posted the address for interloc.com I
tried them for Madison Grant books.
The only one they had was one copy of the hunting
pouch book for $75.
If you want it you better hurry.  Couldn't find
the knife or powder horn books.
Allen Chronister.

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #130
*******************************

-
 To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to
"[e-mail]"
 with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.
 For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send
 "help" to the same address.  Do not use quotes in your message.