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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1295 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Saturday, January 10 2004 Volume 01 : Number 1295 In this issue: -áááááá MtMan-List: Lyman GPR -áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Packframe/Pack Basket/Knapsack?? -áááááá MtMan-List: Backpacks (Again) -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Packframe/Pack Basket/Knapsack?? -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Backpacks (Again) -áááááá MtMan-List: Packing water -áááááá MtMan-List: Water Packing Sissy -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Swimming -áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Lyman GPR -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain College dates -áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Swimming -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Packframe/Pack Basket/Knapsack?? -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Packing water -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Water Packing Sissy -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Packframe/Pack Basket/Knapsack?? -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Packframe/Pack Basket/Knapsack?? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:42:10 -0700 From: "Jeff Gerke" <jgerke@azteca.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Lyman GPR I advertised my Lyman GPR flintlock .54 cal on the list a couple weeks ago. I have a sling for this rifle made by Wilde Weavery that I will throw in. Email with questions or call 801-576-0165. Jeff - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:39:32 -0800 From: Pat Quilter <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Packframe/Pack Basket/Knapsack?? This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3D709.D5434920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Lou I don't have a picture, but if you look at Magpie's picture you will understand what I did, which is close to Magpie's with some differences. I happened to have a dried yucca stalk about 6-8 feet long and about 3 inches diameter. These dry out and fall over after the plant blooms and dies. The stalk is like balsa wood. I cut it in half lengthwise and got two half-rounds, which I cut up and lashed into a rectangular frame. The verticals and horizontals cross each other and have notches like the logs in a log cabin, with rawhide lashing. The rounded side of the half-rounds face my back, and with the large diameter, it rides pretty comfortably and it's very light. I then added two more crossbars made out of ordinary wood sticks on the side away from my back to lash the load onto. The one real difference vs Magpie's frame is that the ends of these crossbars stick about out about three inches on either side, so you can wrap the lashing ropes around them without passing the rope through the middle of the packframe. This makes tying several bundles much faster. I find that several small bundles ride better than 1-2 larger bundles (once tied down). Incidentally, my frame is a crude thing whacked together with a hatchet and knife, not nearly as nice and neatly finished as Magpie's. I used some left-over buckskin for the shoulder straps. The horse-shoe blanket roll across one shoulder is a classic arrangement but I find it makes me too hot when hiking. I also always had some trouble rolling the larger items in (like cups) without objectionable lumps. Walk with a light outfit on - you will still probably work up a sweat which will make you colder at night. I carry my warm clothes on the pack so I will have something dry to put on after sundown. Wool is good, of course, because it keeps you warm regardless but its better if you're dry. My "possibles" (the various useful articles everyone carries) vary according to the needs and distance - for a rendezvous I struggle in with more goods. water, and food, for distance outings I cut down as much as possible, like Roger described. If I didn't have the portmanteau I could wrap stuff in my bedrolls, but it is handy, and makes a good pillow too. For cold conditions I take two blankets, one tight-woven canvas as a windbreak, and a buffalo-fur jerkin (long vest) for general warmth. I usually omit the second "shelter" canvas and depend on the one I wrap my bedroll in. You can usually find some kind of overhang to sleep under if the weather goes bad, and of course, if travelling in company you can pair up canvases. For summer I can eliminate one blanket. I think I did manage to cut my pack down to 25 lbs once, for a 3-day trek "aux aliments du pays" (living off the land). I had two tin cups to boil tea and cook in, various mending kits and other lightweight knick-knacks, flint and steel, maybe a spare knife, my shooting pouch and gun of course, and the rest was a blanket, canvas, the jerkin, and other minor articles for warmth (I like to sleep with one of those wolf-ear blanket caps to keep my head warm). THAT was easy travelling although I ended up existing on about half-rations, and I knew where I could find water. I made pine-needle tea in camp morning and evening which took care of purification too. You should be able to make your 6-8 miles a day if your country is not too rough, and if you keep your load within your carrying power. Good luck Pat Quilter - -----Original Message----- From: MunevarL@aol.com [mailto:MunevarL@aol.com] Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 6:53 AM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Fwd: MtMan-List: Packframe/Pack Basket/Knapsack?? Pat, Thanks for the information on methods of carrying your gear and insights as to how, in the absence of detailed historical references, to make choices that are reasonably plausible for the period. It sounds like the pack frame is your choice. Do you happen to have any instructions on how to make a pack frame and maybe a picture of the one you use (both loaded down with your gear and without gear)? Have you seen the description of the pack frame in Buckskinning 2? What do you think of it? Finally, you mentioned that you strap 3 bundles to your pack frame: a portmaneau for possibles and 2 canvas rolls and bedding. What do you carry in the portmaneau? What are possibles? (sorry for the elementary questions?) When you say to canvas rolls and bedding what exactly do you mean? Are you simply rolling up your remaing gear in your blanket(s), canvas ground cloth and canvas shelter cloth into two separate rolls and strapping them on? Look forward to your thoughts. Take care. Lou - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3D709.D5434920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 5.00.3103.1000" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=277305822-09012004>Hi Lou</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=277305822-09012004> I don't have a picture, but if you look at Magpie's picture you will understand what I did, which is close to Magpie's with some differences.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=277305822-09012004> I happened to have a dried yucca stalk about 6-8 feet long and about 3 inches diameter. These dry out and fall over after the plant blooms and dies. The stalk is like balsa wood. I cut it in half lengthwise and got two half-rounds, which I cut up and lashed into a rectangular frame. The verticals and horizontals cross each other and have notches like the logs in a log cabin, with rawhide lashing. The rounded side of the half-rounds face my back, and with the large diameter, it rides pretty comfortably and it's very light. I then added two more crossbars made out of ordinary wood sticks on the side away from my back to lash the load onto. The one real difference vs Magpie's frame is that the ends of these crossbars stick about out about three inches on either side, so you can wrap the lashing ropes around them without passing the rope through the middle of the packframe. This makes tying several bundles much faster. I find that several small bundles ride better than 1-2 larger bundles (once tied down). Incidentally, my frame is a crude thing whacked together with a hatchet and knife, not nearly as nice and neatly finished as Magpie's. I used some left-over buckskin for the shoulder straps. </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=277305822-09012004> The horse-shoe blanket roll across one shoulder is a classic arrangement but I find it makes me too hot when hiking. I also always had some trouble rolling the larger items in (like cups) without objectionable lumps. Walk with a light outfit on - you will still probably work up a sweat which will make you colder at night. I carry my warm clothes on the pack so I will have something dry to put on after sundown. Wool is good, of course, because it keeps you warm regardless but its better if you're dry. </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=277305822-09012004> My "possibles" (the various useful articles everyone carries) vary according to the needs and distance - for a rendezvous I struggle in with more goods. water, and food, for distance outings I cut down as much as possible, like Roger described. If I didn't have the portmanteau I could wrap stuff in my bedrolls, but it is handy, and makes a good pillow too. For cold conditions I take two blankets, one tight-woven canvas as a windbreak, and a buffalo-fur jerkin (long vest) for general warmth. I usually omit the second "shelter" canvas and depend on the one I wrap my bedroll in. You can usually find some kind of overhang to sleep under if the weather goes bad, and of course, if travelling in company you can pair up canvases. For summer I can eliminate one blanket. I think I did manage to cut my pack down to 25 lbs once, for a 3-day trek "aux aliments du pays" (living off the land). I had two tin cups to boil tea and cook in, various mending kits and other lightweight knick-knacks, flint and steel, maybe a spare knife, my shooting pouch and gun of course, and the rest was a blanket, canvas, the jerkin, and other minor articles for warmth (I like to sleep with one of those wolf-ear blanket caps to keep my head warm). THAT was easy travelling although I ended up existing on about half-rations, and I knew where I could find water. I made pine-needle tea in camp morning and evening which took care of purification too. You should be able to make your 6-8 miles a day if your country is not too rough, and if you keep your load within your carrying power. </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=277305822-09012004>Good luck</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=277305822-09012004>Pat Quilter</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> MunevarL@aol.com [mailto:MunevarL@aol.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, January 09, 2004 6:53 AM<BR><B>To:</B> hist_text@lists.xmission.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Fwd: MtMan-List: Packframe/Pack Basket/Knapsack??<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT face=Arial lang=0 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10">Pat,<BR><BR>Thanks for the information on methods of carrying your gear and insights as to how, in the absence of detailed historical references, to make choices that are reasonably plausible for the period. <BR><BR>It sounds like the pack frame is your choice. Do you happen to have any instructions on how to make a pack frame and maybe a picture of the one you use (both loaded down with your gear and without gear)? Have you seen the description of the pack frame in Buckskinning 2? What do you think of it? Finally, you mentioned that you strap 3 bundles to your pack frame: a portmaneau for possibles and 2 canvas rolls and bedding. What do you carry in the portmaneau? What are possibles? (sorry for the elementary questions?) When you say to canvas rolls and bedding what exactly do you mean? Are you simply rolling up your remaing gear in your blanket(s), canvas ground cloth and canvas shelter cloth into two separate rolls and strapping them on?<BR><BR>Look forward to your thoughts. Take care.<BR><BR>Lou<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML> - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3D709.D5434920-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:46:29 -0600 From: "Glenn Darilek" <glenn@leaklocationservices.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Backpacks (Again) The subject of backpacks was previously discussed on these pages in 1996 and early 1997. The archives for this list can be searched on Dean Rudy's web site. But if the reader would like to while away some idle minutes, The following is a descriptions of an "experiment" I conducted back then: The previous discussions on these pages about suitable packs for pre-1840 pack-ins evolved to the well-stated conclusion of Mr. James Mahoney that in effect, the mountaineers were horsemen, not backpackers. Therefore, if we jaunt without horseflesh, saddlebags should be the norm. A close-knit group of sometimes jaunters held a pack-in this winter on the Colorado River of Texas. One of the organizers was planning to have a competition for the best mountain man pack. I remembered Mr. Mahoney's conclusion, so I did a little research into what kind of saddlebag might be appropriate. I agree with him, and indeed, traveling on foot was a desperate measure, or the punishment meted out to those who were caught sleeping on their watch, or who where guilty of some other infraction of camp rules. I found one specific reference to a saddlebag used by a fur trader. Charles Larpenter was a clerk, trader, and independent agent on the upper Missouri from 1833 to 1872. He kept a daily journal that provides us a fine window into history. His journals were first published in 1898 as "Forty Years a Fur Trader." A more recent University of Nebraska Press Bison Book was published in 1989. On July 3, 1834 Larpenter wrote: "My load to Fort Union was not very encumbering; my old saddle bags, made of a yard of brown muslin, sewed at both ends with a slit in the middle, containing two red flannel shirts, pretty well worn, and one check shirt, and one old white 3-point blanket, were about all I had brought to Fort Union; my tin pan and cup I left behind." So that sentence was the recipe for my pack. I determined to make such a saddle bag for the jaunt. I followed Larpenter's description and hand-sewed a folded yard of muslin into a sealed envelope. Then I cut an opening across the middle of one side. This allowed me to turn both compartments such formed inside out and hand-sew the exposed cut edges with a whipstitch. The result was a natural-colored muslin saddle bag. My problem was to dye it brown as prescribed by Larpenter. I decided to use oak, a method used by bourbon makers to tint and mellow their product. I chipped an honest quart of live oak, bark and all into a tin bucket using a gasoline-powered beaver. I then added about two gallons of water and brought the mixture to a boil and then extinguished the heat. I put the saddlebag into the concoction overnight and gave it a stir the next morning. To make a permanent dye, a mordant must be used to set the color. I used iron filings from those hand warmer packs that generate heat when first exposed to air. The other ingredient in the hand warmers is powdered charcoal, and I tried to separate the two with a magnet, but after some difficulty, decided this was an unnecessary step. So after 24 total hours I put in three of the hand warmer packs, one of which had been unsealed for some time and had turned to rust. After another night, the saddlebag was dyed a dark brown. I rinsed it out a couple of times, and the final rinse water had no trace of color. When the bag dried, it was a mellow dark brown color with a tinge of gray, and perfect for my purposes. So I evaluated the saddle bag on the pack-in. We drove through practically continuous rain to the departure point, and waited through lunchtime for the rain to subside before shouldering our packs. The rain was replaced by a cold westerly that made me rue the reality that I had forgot to take my long-johns. Well at least the long johns were comfortably cozy in the warmth of home. As far as the saddlebag, it was designed for a horse, and despite any alleged resemblance, my shoulder is only a small fraction of the breadth of a horse's rump. So the bag was continually migrating off that narrow ledge. I rearranged it to drape over my blanket and tarp bedroll, which I carried with the aid of a doubled rope over my shoulder. This was a workable, but painful arrangement that I cannot recommend for a jaunt longer than 5 minutes. That is the time that the rope required to made a painful depression in my shoulder. So I was forced to swap shoulders when the pain exceeded my desire to continue. When I was making my way past some brambles, the saddlebag caught some of the thorns and my forward motion imparted a rip in the top of the bag. These experiences prove to me the sometimes fallibility of using what is referred to as experimental archeology. The goal of that practice is to determine what the mountaineers or long hunters might have done by trying various things on a modern trek under conditions as close as possible to the conditions of the historical period. The saddlebags are a case of something that I proved to be impractical, but is documented as being used by at least one Charles Larpenter. Something does not have to be practical to be authentic. And something practical is not necessarily authentic. Yr. Most Obedient Servant Iron Burner Glenn Darilek - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:17:18 -0800 (PST) From: Todd Schrivener <farseer@swbell.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Packframe/Pack Basket/Knapsack?? - --0-168526435-1073693838=:31577 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Roger, how does AuaPur handle chemical contaminants, like fertilizer runoff etc? Some of the areas I hike around in have been contaminated upstream. But, you are dead on with regard to water. I remember the fun I had trying to document a civilian impression water container for a longhunter. There wasn't one. They followed the streams, and drank from them. Why carry it when your paddling on it. :) Wish we could still say the same thing. Todd Missouri Territory "the only substitute for good manners is fast reflexes" - --0-168526435-1073693838=:31577 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii <DIV>Roger, how does AuaPur handle chemical contaminants, like fertilizer runoff etc? Some of the areas I hike around in have been contaminated upstream. But, you are dead on with regard to water. I remember the fun I had trying to document a civilian impression water container for a longhunter. There wasn't one. They followed the streams, and drank from them. Why carry it when your paddling on it. :) Wish we could still say the same thing. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Todd</DIV> <DIV>Missouri Territory</DIV> <DIV>"the only substitute for good manners is fast reflexes"<BR></DIV> - --0-168526435-1073693838=:31577-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:21:24 -0800 (PST) From: Todd Schrivener <farseer@swbell.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Backpacks (Again) - --0-470280768-1073694084=:34040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Glenn, that sounds an awful lot like something called a market wallet in the 1700's. I must profess I tend to portray impressions from pre-1810, and that sounds exactly like one of the more easily documentable methods of lugging stuff around that civilians used. Military and ex-military had a few more options that are real popular with the trekking crowd, but if you weren't military, the odds of you having a military style knapsack were pretty slim. Market wallets and snapsacks were pretty common. Glenn Darilek <glenn@leaklocationservices.com> wrote: <snip> On July 3, 1834 Larpenter wrote: "My load to Fort Union was not very encumbering; my old saddle bags, made of a yard of brown muslin, sewed at both ends with a slit in the middle, containing two red flannel shirts, pretty well worn, and one check shirt, and one old white 3-point blanket, were about all I had brought to Fort Union; my tin pan and cup I left behind." </snip> - --0-470280768-1073694084=:34040 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii <DIV>Glenn, that sounds an awful lot like something called a market wallet in the 1700's. I must profess I tend to portray impressions from pre-1810, and that sounds exactly like one of the more easily documentable methods of lugging stuff around that civilians used. Military and ex-military had a few more options that are real popular with the trekking crowd, but if you weren't military, the odds of you having a military style knapsack were pretty slim. Market wallets and snapsacks were pretty common.<BR><BR><B><I>Glenn Darilek <glenn@leaklocationservices.com></I></B> wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"> <P><snip></P> <P> </P> <P><BR>On July 3, 1834 Larpenter wrote: "My load to Fort Union was<BR>not very encumbering; my old saddle bags, made of a yard of<BR>brown muslin, sewed at both ends with a slit in the middle,<BR>containing two red flannel shirts, pretty well worn, and one<BR>check shirt, and one old white 3-point blanket, were about<BR>all I had brought to Fort Union; my tin pan and cup I left<BR>behind."<BR><BR></snip></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> - --0-470280768-1073694084=:34040-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 18:14:27 -0600 From: "Glenn Darilek" <glenn@leaklocationservices.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Packing water Ready to go on an authentic jaunt? As far as carrying water, even on horseback, Alfred Jacob Miller described the custom: "The time is near sunset, -squads are leaving the main band, and rushing for the water, -thirst is overpowering, and human nature can stand it no longer; -there is a general stampede among the horseman; -the team drivers being compelled to remain, headed by our Captain, who would not move a jot from his usual walk, although he had been smoking for the last 3 hours to relieve this inexorable craving;. . . The question may be asked, why we did not take water along with us? The answer is, that it would have been an innovation on established custom. Nobody did any such thing, -it was looked on as effeminate, to say nothing of the ridicule and rough jests with which the reformer would be pelted. YMOS Iron Burner Glenn Darilek - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 18:08:17 -0700 (MST) From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: MtMan-List: Water Packing Sissy - -it was looked on as effeminate, to say nothing of the > ridicule and rough jests with which the reformer would be > pelted. You're a girly man if you carry water!!! I knew it! I knew it! Man, those where the days! Most people take ten times the gear they need on every trek. Sewing kits, toothbrushes, a spoon, a plate, candle lantern, clean shirt, etc.... Some guys carry more crap in their shooting bag alone then they could use in a year. I recommend taking only your knife, gun, a few rounds, and if you really must live it up, a small kettle for boiling water. Some bedding and dried food. Didn't you say it was two days and 20 miles? You'll be too busy walking anyway. One thing a lot of people don't do is to drink a bunch of water before they leave their rig. I can suck down a half gallon at least before I head out. The best canteen is a man's gut. I drink until I almost burst. I then take it easy on the trail at first until my body absorbs most of it. It usually keeps me set for half a day anyway depending on the weather. I suck it down whenever I have it or find it. And remember what L&C said, if you drink out of a river to dip your cup down deep as the germs float on the surface. Travel early and late, don't sleep in like a bunch of them girly, water packin' mountainmen and cook and rest in the shade during the worse heat of the day. That should save you a pint or two. Don't drink any booze or smoke as that uses water out of your body. That is why I always camp near the second largest river in North America!! Good luck! Greg > Ready to go on an authentic jaunt? As far as carrying water, even on > horseback, Alfred Jacob Miller described the custom: > > "The time is near sunset, -squads are > leaving the main band, and rushing for the water, -thirst is > overpowering, and human nature can stand it no longer; -there > is a general stampede among the horseman; -the team drivers > being compelled to remain, headed by our Captain, who would > not move a jot from his usual walk, although he had been > smoking for the last 3 hours to relieve this inexorable > craving;. . . The question may be asked, why we did not take > water along with us? The answer is, that it would have been > an innovation on established custom. Nobody did any such > thing, -it was looked on as effeminate, to say nothing of the > ridicule and rough jests with which the reformer would be > pelted. > > > YMOS > Iron Burner > Glenn Darilek > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 18:02:38 -0800 From: "RICK TABOR" <blackshirt75@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Swimming Yep, when you've seen one woman naked....You want to see the rest of them. _________________________________________________________________ High-speed usersùbe more efficient online with the new MSN Premium Internet Software. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 18:07:39 -0800 From: "RICK TABOR" <blackshirt75@hotmail.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Lyman GPR Jeff, I didnt see your ad. How much are you asking? Rick _________________________________________________________________ Find high-speed ænet deals ù comparison-shop your local providers here. https://broadband.msn.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 23:00:01 EST From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain College dates - --part1_12a.39002f4a.2d30d2c1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike, thanks, I have visited and thought i looked through out the site, but maybe I missed it. I attended 3 years ago and had a great time. Frank - --part1_12a.39002f4a.2d30d2c1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY= =3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Mike,<BR> thanks, I have visited and thought i looked through out the site, but maybe=20= I missed it. I attended 3 years ago and had a great time.<BR> <BR> Frank</FONT></HTML> - --part1_12a.39002f4a.2d30d2c1_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 20:51:55 -0800 From: Pat Quilter <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Swimming This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3D735.78A0F9C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This is how I understood the development of modern swimming too. I assume they called it the "Australian Crawl" for a reason! The Polynesians were naturals in the water but I didn't know about the Native Americans. Another factor might be that in the 1800's, white Americans had a cultural aversion to taking their clothes off and getting wet all over. This was noted by the Hawaiians during the missionary period. Pat Quilter - -----Original Message----- From: Wynn Ormond [mailto:cheyenne@pcu.net] Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 10:08 PM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: MtMan-List: Swimming I was reading a book called Breakthrough Swimming in which the author spent some time researching swimming in history. He claimed that Europeans used a breast stroke and side stroke but no variation of the crawl or freestyle. However, Native Americans, Australians, and Pacific Islanders were proficeint swimmers using it. Does anyone else know anything more about this subject? If nothing else that might well explain why we read such glowing reports about the abilities of the Indains in water. I know both Catlin and Miller talk about the womens ability to swim. Just a little tidbit for you to give you perspective anyway. Or maybe a new requirement for the Women of the Fur Trade to add to the list. Wynn Ormond - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3D735.78A0F9C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 5.00.3103.1000" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=278574604-10012004>This is how I understood the development of modern swimming too. I assume they called it the "Australian Crawl" for a reason! The Polynesians were naturals in the water but I didn't know about the Native Americans. Another factor might be that in the 1800's, white Americans had a cultural aversion to taking their clothes off and getting wet all over. This was noted by the Hawaiians during the missionary period. </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=278574604-10012004>Pat Quilter</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Wynn Ormond [mailto:cheyenne@pcu.net]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 08, 2004 10:08 PM<BR><B>To:</B> hist_text@lists.xmission.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Swimming<BR><BR></DIV></FONT> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I was reading a book called Breakthrough Swimming in which the author spent some time researching swimming in history. He claimed that Europeans used a breast stroke and side stroke but no variation of the crawl or freestyle. However, Native Americans, Australians, and Pacific Islanders were proficeint swimmers using it. Does anyone else know anything more about this subject? If nothing else that might well explain why we read such glowing reports about the abilities of the Indains in water. I know both Catlin and Miller talk about the womens ability to swim. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Just a little tidbit for you to give you perspective anyway. Or maybe a new requirement for the Women of the Fur Trade to add to the list.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Wynn Ormond</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3D735.78A0F9C0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 21:10:38 -0800 From: "roger lahti" <amm1719@charter.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Packframe/Pack Basket/Knapsack?? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C3D6F5.081AC6D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Todd, Your going to have to drink a lot of water for the runoff contaminants = to kill you. But if that is a concern then get a good filter system. I = really don't think you want to try to carry your gear and 3 gal. of = water too. Capt. Lahti' - ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C3D6F5.081AC6D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1276" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Microsoft Sans Serif" size=3D2>Todd,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Microsoft Sans Serif" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Microsoft Sans Serif" size=3D2>Your going to have to = drink a lot=20 of water for the runoff contaminants to kill you. But if that is a = concern then=20 get a good filter system. I really don't think you want to try to carry = your=20 gear and 3 gal. of water too.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Microsoft Sans Serif" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Microsoft Sans Serif" size=3D2>Capt. = Lahti'</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Microsoft Sans Serif" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML> - ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C3D6F5.081AC6D0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:25:45 -0800 From: "roger lahti" <amm1719@charter.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Packing water Iron Burner, "The answer is, that it would have been an innovation on established custom." The next time some latter day mt. man comes up with the idea that his earlier name sake was so self reliant and innovative we'll have to quote him this quote. They were creatures of habit and custom. Thank you for sharing. YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:35:15 -0800 From: "roger lahti" <amm1719@charter.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Water Packing Sissy "And remember what L&C said, if you drink out of a river to dip your cup down deep as the germs float on the surface." And which was so much bull. The bugs get churned up all through the water column in a river or stream. You actually can get relatively bug free water out in the middle of a calm lake as the really bad ones sink. Otherwise I agree with what you advised. <G> YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 00:30:29 -0700 From: "Wynn Ormond" <cheyenne@pcu.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Packframe/Pack Basket/Knapsack?? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_00B0_01C3D710.F3446420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Todd There is a quote in the marks at the bottom of your post. Can you tell = me the source? Thank You Wynn ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Todd Schrivener=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 5:17 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Packframe/Pack Basket/Knapsack?? Roger, how does AuaPur handle chemical contaminants, like fertilizer = runoff etc? Some of the areas I hike around in have been contaminated = upstream. But, you are dead on with regard to water. I remember = the fun I had trying to document a civilian impression water container = for a longhunter. There wasn't one. They followed the streams, and = drank from them. Why carry it when your paddling on it. :) Wish we = could still say the same thing. =20 Todd Missouri Territory "the only substitute for good manners is fast reflexes" - ------=_NextPart_000_00B0_01C3D710.F3446420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Todd</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>There is a quote in the marks at the = bottom of your=20 post. Can you tell me the source? Thank You</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wynn</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A title=3Dfarseer@swbell.net href=3D"mailto:farseer@swbell.net">Todd=20 Schrivener</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>=20 </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, January 09, 2004 = 5:17=20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: = Packframe/Pack=20 Basket/Knapsack??</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Roger, how does AuaPur handle chemical contaminants, like = fertilizer=20 runoff etc? Some of the areas I hike around in have = been=20 contaminated upstream. But, you are dead on with = regard to=20 water. I remember the fun I had trying to document a = civilian impression water container for a longhunter. There = wasn't=20 one. They followed the streams, and drank from them. = Why=20 carry it when your paddling on it. :) Wish we = could=20 still say the same thing. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Todd</DIV> <DIV>Missouri Territory</DIV> <DIV>"the only substitute for good manners is fast=20 reflexes"<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> - ------=_NextPart_000_00B0_01C3D710.F3446420-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 00:46:54 -0700 From: "Wynn Ormond" <cheyenne@pcu.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Packframe/Pack Basket/Knapsack?? Capt L wrote >. . .that distance I can make, > has made me a believer in going very light and without a lot of junk. > . . . .Most of the guys I've talked to who do a lot of traveling on foot going pc > don't carry any water and they have a problem keeping their pack/gear down > to 25 lbs. I know I do. > Your blankets will run about 4/5 lbs each I think. A small sack of dry food > . . . I presently use a knap sack that will hold a quart corn boiler, a very small > skillet, a sack of dried food about the size of a foot ball, some odds and > ends like twine and a candle or two, etc. I keep my dry cloths rolled up in > my bed roll which in temperate weather is a couple Whitney blankets at the > most, in summer it's a 4 point Whitney and a half blanket. And that roll > will hold an extra pair of socks, mocs and a shirt. Maybe a small sack of > dry tinder. I tie the bed roll under the knap sack and do not use a frame. > It works fairly well. > Well Capt keeping all that plunder your looking to give away in your will, can I recommend my girl friend, gril friend as Cyot had it for some time on his site. If you take her she carries all that stuff for you, she looks good and sings pretty in camp. Most guys that go with her still don't carry that much more stuff than you do cept maybe fresh meat and beverages (not water that wouldn't be authentic). But why would you give all that fine stuff to someone who fetches your wood and cooks when you could give to my girl friend that will carry all your stuff for miles on end with nary a compliant? Wynn - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #1295 ******************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.