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hist_text-digest       Tuesday, August 25 1998       Volume 01 : Number 129




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:49:55 -0500
From: "Scott Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Email Address Change

Just a note to notify of my email address change. It will change to:

[e-mail]


The change will become effective as of 3:00p.m. EST today. Please
make a note of it. Thank you.


Scott Allen
Your most humble servant,
Scott Allen
http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 10:04:51 -0700
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mordant for wood dye

TOF:
Sounds like the same stuff but out west in my part of the country it does depend
on the rare upwelling of ground water (we don't get as much rain as you do, like
less than 8-9" per year). The Stag Horn grown in town will grow fairly big but the
wild stuff rarely gets over 15' depending on the amount of ground water. And it
grows in what I'm sure you would describe as poor soil. It is very handsome in the
fall with it's red plumage. I tried to grow it in my back yard (the wild variety)
for a number of years but it is so invasive with a good water supply that I
finally had to kill it out. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

[e-mail] wrote:

> Capt Lahti writes:
>
> >  Is the stuff growing in towns i.e. Staghorn Sumac the
> >  same as the wild sumac that grows in the west near underground water
> sources?
> >  Dosen't look the same to me. I  remain......
>
> I really can't say.  The stuff around here grows best in poor soil and is
> often found along railroad tracks, in old strip mines, and in other areas
> where the earth is very alkaline.  If left untouched, the stuff will grow into
> trees of 20 to 30 feet, and has a very nice yellow colored wood.  While is is
> very ornamental in the fall because of the brilliant red color of the leaves,
> it is generally considered a nuisance plant in most areas.  It doesn't seem
> dependent on a water supply.
>
> OldFox

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 09:20:48 +0100
From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: knives, guns

A couple of recent messages asked for info on
knives and guns.
1.  A question was asked about why there is so
little detail in fur trade records about guns.  I
think that the level of detail depends on what
records you look at.  For example, I have spent a
lot of time reading AFC and other "invoice"
records from the 1810-1850 period.  These,
comparatively, are widely available on microfilm.
They contain a tremendous amount of information,
but in very, very sketchy form.  For trade guns,
(fusees), for example, the only detail commonly
given is barrel length, and sometimes not even
that.
For rifles, the most detail ( and this is usually
in the later , say mid-30s, records) is usually
the style of the gun.  "American" or "Lancaster"
or "English" for example. Occasional barrel length
or bore is specified.
This is all because these invoice records were
only
intended to be invoices and nothing more.  The
real detail is in other records, which may or may
not now exist, and which are much harder to find.
This
is primarily correspondence between manufacturers
and the fur company in which they discuss the
details of the goods being ordered or shipped.
Very few people have ever published any analysis
of this information.  The best, and most
accessible, is Hanson's "The Hawken Rifle and its
Place in History."
2.  There is a large body of mis-information
around about knives of the Rocky Mountain fur
trade (1810-40 period).
One problem is the tendency of authors to bring in
knives from a wide span of time and place and
attribute them to
mountain trappers.  The best example of this is
Russell's "Firearms Traps and tools of the
Mountain Men." The truth seems to be that the
vast, vast majority of knives available to and
used by the mountain trappers were the common
commercially manufactured knives of the time.
Those were in three primary forms:  butcher,
cartouche and scalper (four, if you include the
common folding knife.)  While numbers of the
frontier-made-one of a kind-antler handle knives
that we all like so much almost certainly were
carried to the West, when they had to be replaced
it was with a cheap, common commercial blade.
The three common trade knives were very well
established by the early 19th century.  In the
1820s and 30s, thousands upon thousands of these
knives were shipped into the West for both native
and non-native use.  While everyone knows what
butcher knives look like, scaplers and cartouche
knives are much less understood but were no less
common in the old days.  Actual surviving 19th
century cartouche knives are relatively rare
today, and actual scalpers are extremely rare.
The best FACTUAL treatment of trade knives that I
have seen published is Hanson's three-part series
that was published in the Mus Fur Trade Quarterly
some years ago.  Sorry, I don't have the cite as I
write this, but I'll try to post it later if
anyone wants.
I've gone on too long as it is.
Allen Chronister

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 07:51:15 -0500
From: "Wefarmasmidgen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Sumac Dye

Old Fox noted that sumac dyes a pinkish brown.  This is true for the first
bit before getting it in the light much.  After a while, it turns a nice
brown/tan color because that pink is not light fast.  I used alum for the
mordant and dyed wool yarn.

Sally Bridgham at Wefarmasmidgen
in Beautiful Southwestern Wisconsin
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:50:10 -0400
From: seanbear <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives, guns

I was at the Museum of the Fur Trade last week and they have a LARGE
collection of Fur Trade era "Trade" guns there.  One of the myths is that
the "trade" gund had no rear sights.  I saw at least 20 there that DID have
sights on them.  OK, NMLRA, get with it and allow trade guns with rear
sights in your "Trade Gun" competetion....  I intend to send them pictures
of them with a letter requesting this...

Addison Miller
- -----Original Message-----
From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
To: chat <[e-mail]>
Date: Sunday, August 23, 1998 1:13 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: knives, guns


>A couple of recent messages asked for info on
>knives and guns.
>1.  A question was asked about why there is so
>little detail in fur trade records about guns.  I
>think that the level of detail depends on what
>records you look at.  For example, I have spent a
>lot of time reading AFC and other "invoice"
>records from the 1810-1850 period.  These,
>comparatively, are widely available on microfilm.
>They contain a tremendous amount of information,
>but in very, very sketchy form.  For trade guns,
>(fusees), for example, the only detail commonly
>given is barrel length, and sometimes not even
>that.
>For rifles, the most detail ( and this is usually
>in the later , say mid-30s, records) is usually
>the style of the gun.  "American" or "Lancaster"
>or "English" for example. Occasional barrel length
>or bore is specified.
>This is all because these invoice records were
>only
>intended to be invoices and nothing more.  The
>real detail is in other records, which may or may
>not now exist, and which are much harder to find.
>This
>is primarily correspondence between manufacturers
>and the fur company in which they discuss the
>details of the goods being ordered or shipped.
>Very few people have ever published any analysis
>of this information.  The best, and most
>accessible, is Hanson's "The Hawken Rifle and its
>Place in History."
>2.  There is a large body of mis-information
>around about knives of the Rocky Mountain fur
>trade (1810-40 period).
>One problem is the tendency of authors to bring in
>knives from a wide span of time and place and
>attribute them to
>mountain trappers.  The best example of this is
>Russell's "Firearms Traps and tools of the
>Mountain Men." The truth seems to be that the
>vast, vast majority of knives available to and
>used by the mountain trappers were the common
>commercially manufactured knives of the time.
>Those were in three primary forms:  butcher,
>cartouche and scalper (four, if you include the
>common folding knife.)  While numbers of the
>frontier-made-one of a kind-antler handle knives
>that we all like so much almost certainly were
>carried to the West, when they had to be replaced
>it was with a cheap, common commercial blade.
>The three common trade knives were very well
>established by the early 19th century.  In the
>1820s and 30s, thousands upon thousands of these
>knives were shipped into the West for both native
>and non-native use.  While everyone knows what
>butcher knives look like, scaplers and cartouche
>knives are much less understood but were no less
>common in the old days.  Actual surviving 19th
>century cartouche knives are relatively rare
>today, and actual scalpers are extremely rare.
>The best FACTUAL treatment of trade knives that I
>have seen published is Hanson's three-part series
>that was published in the Mus Fur Trade Quarterly
>some years ago.  Sorry, I don't have the cite as I
>write this, but I'll try to post it later if
>anyone wants.
>I've gone on too long as it is.
>Allen Chronister
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 18:23:53 -0700
From: [e-mail] (john c funk,jr)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives, guns

Allen,

Excellent comments on knifes.  If possible, please cite the which Museum
of the Fur Trade Quarterly you referred to.  I'd like to do some further
reading.  I've carried a butcher knife with a bone handle, which I found
in an antique store, for some time.  I made  a rawhide sheath with brass
tacks patterned after some museum
 pieces I've seen.  It appears quite old and has fit all my needs since
acquired.

John Funk

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 20:18:28 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: More questions on Dyeing

Many of you have mentioned using oak and I am wondering if the scrub oak that
we have here would work?  I am no botanist and don't know if is a true oak or
not, but I do know that there is ton's of it on the hill sides near by.  I am
going to do some looking to see if I can find any information on scrub oak and
I will let you know if I find anything.  The neighbor next door has an oak
tree whose branches hang over our fence.  I am sure that I could harvest some
acorns from a few branches and not hurt anyones feelings.  Do they still work
if green?  Anyway, I think I am going to experiment this coming weekend with a
dye bath of maple bark and oak bark (if I feel comfortable with the scrub
oak).  I will let you know the outcome.  Thanks again for all the help.

Grant

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:43:27 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives, guns

>The best FACTUAL treatment of trade knives that I
>have seen published is Hanson's three-part series
>that was published in the Mus Fur Trade Quarterly
>some years ago.  Sorry, I don't have the cite as I
>write this, but I'll try to post it later if
>anyone wants.

The articles are: "The Scalping knife" in Spring 1987 issue of _MFTQ_,
"The Cartouche Knife" in the Summer "87 issue, and "The Butcher Knife" fall
"87 issue.  Additionally, there is a good "update" article in the Winter
1993 _MFTQ_ on Green River knives.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 09:28:24 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More questions on Dyeing

I see all these questions wanting to know about where they can find sumac or
oak (bark).  I have 80 acres where we are cutting it down.  If anyone is
interested and not it to big of a hurry (I have a regular job).  I would be
glad to send them some in the mail, if they will just pay the postage.  Being
a trapper and Rendezvous reinactor myself, I know sometimes it's hard to find
certin items.  The trade system is still alive here. Just let me
know.                                                                                                                                            TrapR Joe

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 00:20:33 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More questions on Dyeing

Grant writes:

> Many of you have mentioned using oak and I am wondering if the scrub oak
> that we have here would work?  I am no botanist and don't know if is a true
oak
> or not, but I do know that there is ton's of it on the hill sides near by

Grant,
If I remember right, you are just trying to get some tannin.  Instead of
peelin' trees, just go buy a bag of them redwood chips that they use for
landscaping mulch.  Should give you all you need.
OldFox

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:59:23 +0100
From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: knives etc.

Henry Crawford has posted the cites to the MFT
articles that I mentioned.  Thanks a lot for doing
that, Henry.
Also, anyone who does not have a complete set of
the MFT Quarterlies should get them.  As far as I
know all issues they have ever published are still
available.  Many of the early years have be
reprinted into a single volume for each year,
which makes them even more handy.  While I no
longer recall what it costs to get a complete set,
it is not too much and the information is more
than worth the cost.
Allen Chronister

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:03:36 -0700
From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Redwood Chips...

I really am confused.... if I want to dye commerical yellow leather already
made mocs with the redwood chip routine - what do I do?

Gail

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:55:58 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Redwood Chips...

In a message dated 98-08-24 15:11:41 EDT, you write:

> I really am confused.... if I want to dye commerical yellow leather already
>  made mocs with the redwood chip routine - what do I do?

Gail,
He wants the redwood bark as a mordant for another dye.  He is not using it to
dye anything.  If you want to dye mocassins just use walnut dye.  Walnuts are
falling now.  Gather the hulls and let them soak in water until the color is
concentrated.  Then strain off the liquid and use it to dye your mocs.
Putting them in a pair of panty hose and tying off the top will prevent all
the nasty solids from getting all over the leather.

OldFox

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:13:11 -0500
From: "yellow rose/pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: guns, knives, and such

Thanks for the info guys. Does the Museum of The Fur Trade have a website?
Or could some kind soul give us the address? I know it is in Chadron,
Nebraska but beyond that I'm lost. Texas is a fer piece from Nebraska.
Thanks,
Pendleton

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 17:16:17 -0400
From: Ron Valley <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Redwood Chips...

Gail,

I'm sorry, but I deleted the note(s) earlier about using red wood chips for
dying leather.  I believe that it came over the HIST TEXT thread.  I
personally don't understand why someone would use lawn & garden chips (that
may themselves, have been DYED to help make them a deeper color) to dye
their leather, mocs or anything else... but whatever.  It is certainly my
choice and perhaps my loss, and at the risk of offending someone (and I know
that I will) I usually scan over this kind of advise rather quickly, or
don't read the entire note as is the case here.  So, my apologizes to you if
I'm out of line.

Anyhow, there have many good notes submitted on the tanning process and
recent reference to the use of oak bark (and others) when 'bark tanning' a
hide, in the HIST TEXT.  All good information for reference if considering
tanning a hide.  But as for changing the color of pre-existing commercially
tanned (and perhaps made) mocs... since you have commercial leather, you may
have to use a leather dye to change the color of your mocs, if that is what
you want.  Or, simply USE them and keep them well waxed!  The "yellow" color
of the leather will age rather quickly with use and change to a much darker
color in the process.  Bees wax and tallow or a good commercial product like
"sno-seal" works very well.

Oh, by the way, I noticed in the header of your message that you (or perhaps
someone before you, if you replied to a previous message) addressed your
attached message to the "American Mountain Men".  Someone apparently has
that 'name' typed in their "address book" as a quick reference or name to
'click on' when e-mailing.   You most likely already realize this, but while
many of the subscribers who chat in the HIST TEXT are indeed members of the
AMM, not all who subscribe or write and express their views there are
members (of the AMM).  I find that most of the good folks who submit their
personal experiences, reference materials and the like have been
re-enacting, attending rendezvous and have been passionately involved with
this era of America's History for many, many years.  Whether their interest
is recreational and / or professional, they possess a wealth of experience &
knowledge and I personally owe them my gratitude & thanks for all of the
invaluable direction and information I've received from this file.

I hope this has been of some help to you and good luck with your mocs.

Ron  Valley
AMM  # 1353

    -----Original Message-----
    From:    Gail Carbiener [SMTP:[e-mail]]
    Sent:    Monday, August 24, 1998 3:04 PM
    To:    American Mountain Men
    Subject:    MtMan-List: Redwood Chips...

    I really am confused.... if I want to dye commerical yellow leather
already
    made mocs with the redwood chip routine - what do I do?

    Gail

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:27:27 -0600
From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns, knives, and such

At 07:13 PM 8/24/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Thanks for the info guys. Does the Museum of The Fur Trade have a website?
>Or could some kind soul give us the address? I know it is in Chadron,
>Nebraska but beyond that I'm lost. Texas is a fer piece from Nebraska.
>Thanks,
>Pendleton
>

Don't know that the MFT has their own website, but try

http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/mftq.html

The address for ordering back issues is there, and also a cumulative table
of contents, that should be helpful in looking up citations on articles
like the Knife articles recently discussed.

- -Dean



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dean Rudy   AMM#1530     Email: [e-mail]
Park City, Utah          WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:45:59 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns, knives, and such

>Thanks for the info guys. Does the Museum of The Fur Trade have a website?
>Or could some kind soul give us the address? I know it is in Chadron,
>Nebraska but beyond that I'm lost. Texas is a fer piece from Nebraska.
>Thanks,
>Pendleton


The phone number is 308/432-3843.  The Director is Gail Potter, a friend of
mine.  Tell her hi.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #129
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