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hist_text-digest       Saturday, August 22 1998       Volume 01 : Number 128




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:41:54 -0500
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #126

Lactose intolerance is many times caused by the lack of an enzyme in the
digestive tract.  This enzyme is present in almost all babies but will
sometimes dissappear if the consumption of milk and milk products is
discontinued.  As some cultures discontinue the consumption of milk when the
need for breast feeding ends, lactose intolerance will often follow.  It is
not so much a racial trend as it is cultural.
Lanney Ratcliff
- -----Original Message-----
From: Gail C Martini-Peterson <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Thursday, August 20, 1998 11:35 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #126


>> >I just finished reading a book on the history of Fort Nisqually. Not
>> long
>> >after the fort was built, the HBC had cows and sheep shipped up from
>> Fort
>> >Vancouver. Seems the local Indians had never seen such critters and all
>> got
>> >quite ill from drinking the milk! The author, (a Nisqually Indian) goes
>> on to
>> >say that ALL Indians lack the enzyme to digest milk! I know of some
>> people who
>> >are "lactose in tolerate" but not an entire race.  Can this be true?
>>
>> Not likely.  Try telling that to all of our Indian friends who love ice
>> cream.
>>
>> HBC
>
>I also read somewhere that many Native Americans are for the most part
>lactose intolerant. I have a friend who has this problem. Sometimes she
>eats ice cream or drinks a latte because she enjoys the taste and
>decides to just put up with the problems it causes.
>
>I would guess that if someone were of mixed heritage, s/he might be less
>intolerant.
>
>What is the name of the book about Ft. Nisqually? Sounds interesting.
>
>Gail Martini-Peterson
>[e-mail]
>
>Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit
>there.
>        Will Rogers
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 18:14:07 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #126

In a message dated 98-08-20 17:40:43 EDT, you write:

<<
 Lactose intolerance is many times caused by the lack of an enzyme in the
 digestive tract.  This enzyme is present in almost all babies but will
 sometimes dissappear if the consumption of milk and milk products is
 discontinued.  As some cultures discontinue the consumption of milk when the
 need for breast feeding ends, lactose intolerance will often follow.  It is
 not so much a racial trend as it is cultural.
 Lanney Ratcliff >>

Yes this is correct..however there are some genetic components in the
intolerance, as wel.  Bear in mind that there has been much interaction
between the Native americans and whites over the past 500 years, so it
shouldn't be surprising that many are now tolerant..just as some whites with
indian blood have shovel teeth and flared cheekbones..

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 17:55:21 -0500
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #126

  You are exactly right.  That is why I used the terms  "many times",
"almost all", "sometimes", "often follow".  With the interaction of the many
races over the years there is little that is as it was originally.  My
brother-in-law, by all appearances a red headed Irishman, drinks little or
no milk.  However, he pigs out on ice cream from time with extremely
unfortunate relsults...gas!  oh Lord, the gas!!
Lanney
- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Thursday, August 20, 1998 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #126


>In a message dated 98-08-20 17:40:43 EDT, you write:
>
><<
> Lactose intolerance is many times caused by the lack of an enzyme in the
> digestive tract.  This enzyme is present in almost all babies but will
> sometimes dissappear if the consumption of milk and milk products is
> discontinued.  As some cultures discontinue the consumption of milk when
the
> need for breast feeding ends, lactose intolerance will often follow.  It
is
> not so much a racial trend as it is cultural.
> Lanney Ratcliff >>
>
>Yes this is correct..however there are some genetic components in the
>intolerance, as wel.  Bear in mind that there has been much interaction
>between the Native americans and whites over the past 500 years, so it
>shouldn't be surprising that many are now tolerant..just as some whites
with
>indian blood have shovel teeth and flared cheekbones..
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 17:40:31 -0500
From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #126

Washtahay-
At 06:14 PM 8/20/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Yes this is correct..however there are some genetic components in the
>intolerance, as wel.  Bear in mind that there has been much interaction
>between the Native americans and whites over the past 500 years, so it
>shouldn't be surprising that many are now tolerant..just as some whites with
>indian blood have shovel teeth and flared cheekbones..
    Or even some whites "without" Indian blood have shovel teeth and flared
cheekbones...(No, boy, your great grandma wasn't an Indian...she, um, just
worked in the fields a lot...) ;-)
LongWalker c. du B

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 19:31:04 -0400
From: "Thomas H. Harbold" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (no subject)

At 3:40 PM -0400 8/14/98, <[e-mail]> wrote:
>For those of you who don't know about it, there is a series coming on next
>week on the History Channel you may find interesting.  All times listed are
>Eastern Time.
>
>
>Longshot

Watched and thoroughly enjoyed the first of these, on Roger's Rangers;
haven't been able to get to see the rest of 'em, unfortunately. I
understand the series is available, as a set, on video through the History
Channel, though -- if I could afford it, I'd pick them up! However, I'm
saving money for clothing and accoutrements...  ;-)  If you missed them on
TV, however, or can't get cable, that's another shot at 'em!

Yrs sincerely,

Tom


- -------------------------------------------------------------------
 Thomas H. Harbold                                   P.O. Box 1537
 [e-mail]                       Westminster, MD 21158
 www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/5129             ICQ # 6198968
- -------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 00:16:05 -0600
From: "Scott Singer - \"Spinner\"" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (no subject)

>Watched and thoroughly enjoyed the first of these, on Roger's Rangers;
>haven't been able to get to see the rest of 'em, unfortunately. I
>understand the series is available, as a set, on video through the History
>Channel, though -- if I could afford it, I'd pick them up! However, I'm
>saving money for clothing and accoutrements...  ;-)  If you missed them on
>TV, however, or can't get cable, that's another shot at 'em!


All four of the series are being re-broadcast back-to-back this Sunday
afternoon, 12 noon EST

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 00:09:06 -0600
From: "Scott Singer - \"Spinner\"" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or outside?

>Go back a few weeks in this list and you
>will come to a discussion of how to "improve" commercially tanned elk
hides, by
>carefully sanding off the hair side or scarf skin.

I wasn't able to find the reference you mentioned - my patience wore out
before I got through all of the most recent posting archives.  Can anyone
share the details on this process for me?

Also, I believe I have heard of wetting and stretching a commercially tanned
hide and allowing it to dry, thereby reducing the stretch of the end
garment.  Anyone have experience doing this?

- -------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Singer, aka "Spinner"
WWW Rendezvous Web Site:
     http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous
Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site
     http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:21:19 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (fwd)Negro trappers

BLACK HARRIS WAS WHITE.HIS SKIN HAD BEEN DARKENED BY ,IT WAS
BELIEVED,FROSTBITE.HE WAS NOTED FOR HIS WINTER RUNS EAST TO ST. LOUIS WITH
BILL SUBLETTE. (MOUNTAIN MEN AND FUR TRADERS OF THE FAR WEST-HARVEY CARTER) IT
IS BELIEVED THE SLANG TERM FOR NEGROE WAS USED GENEROUSLY BETWEEN MOUNTAINMEN
AND ADDITIONALLY, WAS NOT A REFLECTION OF RACE.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 10:28:04 -0400
From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or outside?

The April 97 issue of Muzzleblasts describes this method. Basically it
involves using a power sander to remove the scarfskin of commercially tanned
hides.


Kirk Mill

    -----Original Message-----
    From:    Scott Singer - "Spinner" [SMTP:[e-mail]]
    Sent:    Friday, August 21, 1998 2:09 AM
    To:    [e-mail]
    Subject:    Re: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or outside?

    I wasn't able to find the reference you mentioned - my patience wore
out
    before I got through all of the most recent posting archives.  Can
anyone
    share the details on this process for me?


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 13:26:27 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Mordant for wood dye

I read an article in Muzzleloader magazine about using natural dyes.  It was
entitled "Beyond walnut brown," and I believe was written by Cathy Johnson.  I
am sure many of you saw it.  I decided to do a little experimenting with some
bark gathered in the back yard.  I boiled some silver maple bark and got a
nice redish brown dye.  I boiled a piece of linen in it and I really like the
way it came out.  I think I am going to dye enough linen to make a hunting
shirt.  She mentioned in her article that some wood dyes need a mordant and
that tanic acid works well.  She suggested sumac leaves and berries as a
natural source of tanic acid.  I do not know if we have sumac out west (I am
in Utah), but I do know that I wouldn't recognize it if I saw it.  I was
wondering if tea leaves would work as a source of tanic acid?  Does anyone
have any other suggestions as for a natural source of tanic acid? or an
alternate mordant.  Any other advice you would have for me for my first time
dying would be appreciated.  I know that a thread went around on this not too
long ago and I intend to check the archives.

Grant

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 20:02:56 -0700
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mordant for wood dye

Grant' You do have sumac out west and it may be right in town. Up here in WA. on
the east side we have one wild sumac and in towns a lot of folks grow what is call
Stag sumac. If you take the time to look it up in a botany guide you should be
able to find it. You probably want dry leaves and seed heads this fall after they
start to go dormant. The plant is basically a clumping single stalk shrub with few
limbs and leaves and seed heads at the ends of branches. The leaves are shaped
like spear points and line both sides of a foot long stem sorta like palm fronds
do. The leaves will be about as big as your index finger and pointed both ends. In
the fall after first frost the leaves will turn bright red and orange before
falling off. The stem that the leaves grow from will fall off too.

Hoe this helps. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

[e-mail] wrote:

> I read an article in Muzzleloader magazine about using natural dyes.  It was
> entitled "Beyond walnut brown," and I believe was written by Cathy Johnson.  I
> am sure many of you saw it.  I decided to do a little experimenting with some
> bark gathered in the back yard.  I boiled some silver maple bark and got a
> nice redish brown dye.  I boiled a piece of linen in it and I really like the
> way it came out.  I think I am going to dye enough linen to make a hunting
> shirt.  She mentioned in her article that some wood dyes need a mordant and
> that tanic acid works well.  She suggested sumac leaves and berries as a
> natural source of tanic acid.  I do not know if we have sumac out west (I am
> in Utah), but I do know that I wouldn't recognize it if I saw it.  I was
> wondering if tea leaves would work as a source of tanic acid?  Does anyone
> have any other suggestions as for a natural source of tanic acid? or an
> alternate mordant.  Any other advice you would have for me for my first time
> dying would be appreciated.  I know that a thread went around on this not too
> long ago and I intend to check the archives.
>
> Grant

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 20:02:38 -0700
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or outside?

I thought you might find the directions on the list but I guess not. It was my
friend Tom Crooks that wrote that article. Basically what you do is wet the
leather and stretch it out on a very smooth piece of plywood hair side up. Let
it dry thoroughly. Put a sheet rock sanding sheet (used to sand off the extra
joint compound at the seams) in a palm sander not a belt or rotary sander! Take
your time and go over the hair side of the leather until you have roughed it up
a bit. You want to scuff up the scarf skin but stop before you sand through the
leather. If you are careful and use a palm sander or do it by hand with a
sanding block, you should not have any trouble. Get me off line if you have any
other questions. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Mill, Kirk wrote:

> The April 97 issue of Muzzleblasts describes this method. Basically it
> involves using a power sander to remove the scarfskin of commercially tanned
> hides.
>
>
> Kirk Mill
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From:   Scott Singer - "Spinner" [SMTP:[e-mail]]
>         Sent:   Friday, August 21, 1998 2:09 AM
>         To:     [e-mail]
>         Subject:        Re: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or outside?
>
>         I wasn't able to find the reference you mentioned - my patience wore
> out
>         before I got through all of the most recent posting archives.  Can
> anyone
>         share the details on this process for me?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 22:04:56 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mordant for wood dye

Oak bark has tannic acid.  Sumac grows all over my place. It's a weed here. I
could possibly mail you some. Let me know.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:54:12 -0400
From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Mordant for wood dye

The traditional source of tannic acid is Oak bark. Hemlock bark also has a
high tannin content. You will notice that Hemlock stumps take forever to
decompose. This is due to the tannic acid in the wood. I have heard of old
timers hollowing out Hemlock stumps to use as a vessel to soak hides. The
tannic acid leaches out of the wood and preserves the hide. That's the story
as told to me. Practically speaking, I have never tried a vegetable tan,
only alum tanning. Hope this helps.


Kirk Mill


    -----Original Message-----
    From:    [e-mail] [SMTP:[e-mail]]
    Sent:    Friday, August 21, 1998 1:26 PM
    To:    [e-mail]
    Subject:    MtMan-List: Mordant for wood dye

    shirt.  She mentioned in her article that some wood dyes need a
mordant and
    that tanic acid works well.  She suggested sumac leaves and berries
as a
    natural source of tanic acid.  I do not know if we have sumac out
west (I am
    in Utah), but I do know that I wouldn't recognize it if I saw it.  I
was
    wondering if tea leaves would work as a source of tanic acid?  Does
anyone
    have any other suggestions as for a natural source of tanic acid? or
an
    alternate mordant.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 23:38:46 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mordant for wood dye

Capt Lahti writes:

> Grant' You do have sumac out west and it may be right in town. Up here in
WA.
>  on the east side we have one wild sumac and in towns a lot of folks grow
what
> is call Stag sumac.

Actually, I think it's call Staghorn Sumac.

>If you take the time to look it up in a botany guide you should
> be  able to find it. You probably want dry leaves and seed heads this fall
after
> they start to go dormant. The plant is basically a clumping single stalk
shrub
> with few limbs and leaves and seed heads at the ends of branches.

I really don't know that Sumac can be used as a mordant, because it is a
dyestuff itself, generally yielding anywhere from gray to a light pinkish tan,
depending on what mordant is used with it.  I have a trade shirt that is sumac
dyed and it is more on the pink side.

The berries of the Sumac can be gathered either ripe or dry, and when crushed
in water and allowed to steep for a while, will yield a passable lemonade.  It
is slightly astringent and makes a fine thirst quencher on hot days. (Gives me
heartburn without a lot of sugar in it).  The wood is very pithy and can be
hollowed out with a steel rod or coathanger.  I used the twisted end of a
coathanger like a towworm to drag the pith out.  I have a blowpipe made from
sumac wood in this manner.  Other hollow tube-like instruments could also be
made this way, depending on your imagination.  I don't think they would make
good pipe stems, but might work in a pinch.


OldFox

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 09:41:40 -0500 (CDT)
From: [e-mail] (A D)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mordant for wood dye

    My wife has used tea leaves in her soap crating, to help preserve
and add smell. She has also used instant coffee
this will remove smells from the body, like fish, onions, ect. Anis is
used in a soap they nicknamed " the deer walked right up to me like I
was invisable" removes humane sent. She is pleased with the way they
work, hope this will help you.

D'Wolfen



------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 01:44:22 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mordant for wood dye

Haven't read Orin's magazine in over 15 years so I can't comment on this
particular article.

Mordants can be acid or alkali.  More commonly in the dyeing of cloth they=
 are
oxides or hydroxides of various metals combined with organic dye forming an
insoluble color compound in the fiber.  Many different plant parts and=
 pieces
yield colors.  Each will yield differing shades and colors depending on the
mordants used.  For example onion skins were/are commonly used in dyeing
wool.=20
Iron gives a different color than copper, which differs from lead, etc. =
 Even
the pot you cook the dye in can effect the final color.

If you are in the city drop by the local cabinet shops (SLC has many) and=
 ask
to rummage their dumpster.  Chips of oak or oak sawdust can be used to=
 extract
tannic acid.  Of course the best is live oak bark.  Maybe someone in Texas
will
send you some?  Then again it seems like maybe I heard cutting live oaks is
now
illegal.

Get a copy of the Dyer's Companion by Elijah Bemiss, 1806, reprinted by=
 Dover,
ISBN:  0-486-20601-7  -  $6.50

John...



At 01:26 PM 8/21/98 -0400, you wrote:
>I read an article in Muzzleloader magazine about using natural dyes.=A0 It=
 was
>entitled "Beyond walnut brown," and I believe was written by Cathy
Johnson.=A0 I
>am sure many of you saw it.=A0 I decided to do a little experimenting with=
 some
>bark gathered in the back yard.=A0 I boiled some silver maple bark and got=
 a
>nice redish brown dye.=A0 I boiled a piece of linen in it and I really like=
 the
>way it came out.=A0 I think I am going to dye enough linen to make a=
 hunting
>shirt.=A0 She mentioned in her article that some wood dyes need a mordant=
 and
>that tanic acid works well.=A0 She suggested sumac leaves and berries as a
>natural source of tanic acid.=A0 I do not know if we have sumac out west (I=
 am
>in Utah), but I do know that I wouldn't recognize it if I saw it.=A0 I was
>wondering if tea leaves would work as a source of tanic acid?=A0 Does=
 anyone
>have any other suggestions as for a natural source of tanic acid? or an
>alternate mordant.=A0 Any other advice you would have for me for my first=
 time
>dying would be appreciated.=A0 I know that a thread went around on this not=
 too
>long ago and I intend to check the archives.
>
>Grant
>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 22:17:33 -0700
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mordant for wood dye

Old Fox'
Thanks for the clarifications on my post. Tired from my drive up to Spokane and
back today. I was aware that sumac is used as a dye stuff, it is mentioned in some
of Gilguns writing , I think. If the man wants to try it then I was just letting
him know it grows out here. Is the stuff growing in towns i.e. Staghorn Sumac the
same as the wild sumac that grows in the west near underground water sources?
Dosen't look the same to me. I  remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

[e-mail] wrote:

> Capt Lahti writes:
>
> > Grant' You do have sumac out west and it may be right in town. Up here in
> WA.
> >  on the east side we have one wild sumac and in towns a lot of folks grow
> what
> > is call Stag sumac.
>
> Actually, I think it's call Staghorn Sumac.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 19:00:50 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mordant for wood dye

Capt Lahti writes:

>  Is the stuff growing in towns i.e. Staghorn Sumac the
>  same as the wild sumac that grows in the west near underground water
sources?
>  Dosen't look the same to me. I  remain......

I really can't say.  The stuff around here grows best in poor soil and is
often found along railroad tracks, in old strip mines, and in other areas
where the earth is very alkaline.  If left untouched, the stuff will grow into
trees of 20 to 30 feet, and has a very nice yellow colored wood.  While is is
very ornamental in the fall because of the brilliant red color of the leaves,
it is generally considered a nuisance plant in most areas.  It doesn't seem
dependent on a water supply.

OldFox

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #128
*******************************

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