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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest)
To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1260
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
hist_text-digest Tuesday, November 4 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1260
In this issue:
-áááááá MtMan-List: L&C rifles
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: L&C rifles
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: cold weather camping
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: cold weather camping
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: winter camps and gear
-áááááá MtMan-List: Colonial MArket Fair in Weston, WV
-áááááá MtMan-List: Calling Frenchtown Sean
-áááááá MtMan-List: Crass Commercial Announcement
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: L&C rifles
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Indian Robe Dressing
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: L&C rifles
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: L&C rifles
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Indian Robe Dressing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 19:38:00 -0600
From: "Frank Fusco" <Rifleman1776@cox-internet.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: L&C rifles
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<frank---
since jake and sam hawkens worked for harpers ferry until after 1800 =
could it be since the hawken is a combination of a 1803 harpers ferry =
and a english sporting rifle that jake and sam worked on the lewis and =
clark guns that went west---what is the possibilities of this being =
true---there is a correspondance from clark to sam in the hawken family =
records---but it does not discuss the 1803 harpers ferry---
hawk>
Hawk
I dunno. Haven't done any personal research on this. I just relayed =
what I saw in the AP story. One group of researchers, studying what =
items records exist from the L&C trip, concluded that the order for the =
Harper's Ferry Model 1803, contracted for the expedition, probably was =
not ready in time for departure. I believe that when studies are =
completed or new information comes along they will release it.
If they didn't take the HF models, then they had to take something =
and the Hawken boys products would have been good alternate choices. =
But, I'm speculating here.
Frank
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<DIV><frank---<BR>since jake and sam hawkens worked for harpers ferry =
until=20
after 1800 could it be since the hawken is a combination of a 1803 =
harpers ferry=20
and a english sporting rifle that jake and sam worked on the lewis and =
clark=20
guns that went west---what is the possibilities of this being =
true---there is a=20
correspondance from clark to sam in the hawken family records---but it =
does not=20
discuss the 1803 harpers ferry---<BR><BR>hawk></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Hawk</DIV>
<DIV> I dunno. Haven't done any personal research on =
this. I=20
just relayed what I saw in the AP story. One group of researchers, =
studying what=20
items records exist from the L&C trip, concluded that the order for =
the=20
Harper's Ferry Model 1803, contracted for the expedition, probably was =
not ready=20
in time for departure. I believe that when studies are completed or new=20
information comes along they will release it.</DIV>
<DIV> If they didn't take the HF models, then they had =
to take=20
something and the Hawken boys products would have been good alternate =
choices.=20
But, I'm speculating here.</DIV>
<DIV>Frank<BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 17:47:58 -0800
From: "roger lahti" <amm1719@charter.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: L&C rifles
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <hawknest4@juno.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: L&C rifles
>
> frank---
> since jake and sam hawkens worked for harpers ferry until after 1800 could
it be since the hawken is a combination of a 1803 harpers ferry and a
english sporting rifle that jake and sam worked on the lewis and clark guns
that went west---what is the possibilities of this being true--->
Slim and none. If they were working on Harpers Ferry production then they
worked on what they were told to. I doubt they had much influence on design.
What every one seems to forget is that the 1803 didn't go into any level of
production until after the Corps left on their journey. The other thing we
forget is that in those days whatever gun was bening built as "the model"
was designated as "Model" such and such according to what year it was being
put out. The models being put out in 1803 did not look anything like what we
see as "the half stock, etc." but rather much more like a Charleville
musket.
What little I have read recently has said as much. The latest research is
saying that given all the known's about this, the Corps did not carry the
half stock rifle we call an 1803 Harpers Ferrry. Maybe full stocks and
certainly muskets but in the military design of the day with bands and etc.
That's my take on all this.
Capt. Lahti'
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 20:31:04 -0700
From: James and Sue Stone <jandsstone@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cold weather camping
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It was I who said take what works in case you need it. Thinking about
that off and on during the evening I applied it to some of my 32 years
of experience fighting wildland fires. We refer to that as an "Escape
Route." Sure, you can get away doing risky things, but when things go
to pot, it's nice to have an escape route. Other standard items
firefighters look to is to assure they have communciation, even if it is
just letting someone know where you are going and when you expect to
come back. Who knows when they will stumble and spill a bucket full of
water on themselves on the way up to camp from the creek?
Sparks
Frank Fusco wrote:
>
> Those on this list have dedication to authenticity, however one
> defines it, ranging from "don't care" to strict observance of what
> they believe the RMFT guys did back then.
> Something not often discussed on this list is the fact that it was
> very 'authentic' to die painful, gruesome and horrible deaths from
> many things we routinely care for today with modern items.
> Freezing to death certainly is 'authentic'. As was pointed out,
> below certain temperatures, simply being outside requires serious
> survival techniques if one expects to wake up again.
> There comes a time when common sense must prevail over the desire
> to prove one is 'authentic'. A tin-teepee with a heater or a cozy
> cabin is much more appealing to my old bones than sleeping like a sled
> dog.
> Frank
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It was I who said take what works in case you need it. Thinking about that
off and on during the evening I applied it to some of my 32 years of experience
fighting wildland fires. We refer to that as an "Escape Route." Sure, you
can get away doing risky things, but when things go to pot, it's nice to
have an escape route. Other standard items firefighters look to is to assure
they have communciation, even if it is just letting someone know where you
are going and when you expect to come back. Who knows when they will stumble
and spill a bucket full of water on themselves on the way up to camp from
the creek?<br>
<br>
Sparks<br>
<br>
Frank Fusco wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid004b01c3a165$160bd970$0f02a8c0@D2K2KS21">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; ">
<meta content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1264" name="GENERATOR">
<style></style>
<div> Those on this list have dedication to authenticity, however one
defines it, ranging from "don't care" to strict observance of what they
believe the RMFT guys did back then.</div>
<div> Something not often discussed on this list is the fact that it
was very 'authentic' to die painful, gruesome and horrible deaths from many
things we routinely care for today with modern items.</div>
<div> Freezing to death certainly is 'authentic'. As was pointed out,
below certain temperatures, simply being outside requires serious survival
techniques if one expects to wake up again.</div>
<div> There comes a time when common sense must prevail over the desire
to prove one is 'authentic'. A tin-teepee with a heater or a cozy cabin
is much more appealing to my old bones than sleeping like a sled dog.</div>
<div>Frank</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 20:45:57 -0800
From: "roger lahti" <amm1719@charter.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cold weather camping
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Sparks,
Fellow fire fighter I see. This is not directed at you Sparks but is a =
general comment to whomever.
This list is devoted to investigating and sharing what we know about =
RMFT and the people who participated in it along with most any closely =
related historical period/peoples. When some one asks about how to do a =
cold camp or etc. most of the knowledgeable folks on this list will =
start talking about how they do it practicing as much authenticity as =
they can.=20
Anyone listening can learn a lot on how to do just that. Anyone who =
isn't comfortable with leaving modern civilization behind in any degree =
they don't feel comfortable is surely welcome to do so. The Associations =
who demand otherwise from their members and those who will associate =
with them in their camps expect a certain level of authenticity (as best =
as can be determined what's authentic) have a right to do so. Those who =
don't wish to reach that far are welcome to choose their own path and =
without anyone looking down on them in any seriousness.=20
I don't want anyone to go out in sub zero temps and do it with a bent =
towards the early 1800s if they are not comfortable doing it. If you =
need to take something, a comfort item for your safety or perceived =
safety by all means do so. Nobody here is going to call you out for =
doing so.=20
But if you don't camp strictly primitive it's pretty hard to believe you =
know what it's all about and how to do it.
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sparks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Fellow fire fighter I see. This is not =
directed at=20
you Sparks but is a general comment to whomever.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This list is devoted to investigating =
and sharing=20
what we know about RMFT and the people who participated in it along with =
most=20
any closely related historical period/peoples. When some one asks about =
how to=20
do a cold camp or etc. most of the knowledgeable folks on this list will =
start=20
talking about how they do it practicing as much authenticity as =
they can.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Anyone listening can learn a lot on how =
to do just=20
that. Anyone who isn't comfortable with leaving modern civilization =
behind in=20
any degree they don't feel comfortable is surely welcome to do so. The=20
Associations who demand otherwise from their members and those who will=20
associate with them in their camps expect a certain level of =
authenticity (as=20
best as can be determined what's authentic) have a right to do so. Those =
who=20
don't wish to reach that far are welcome to choose their own path and =
without=20
anyone looking down on them in any seriousness. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I don't want anyone to go out in sub =
zero temps and=20
do it with a bent towards the early 1800s if they are not comfortable =
doing it.=20
If you need to take something, a comfort item for your safety or =
perceived=20
safety by all means do so. Nobody here is going to call you out for =
doing so.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>But if you don't camp strictly =
primitive it's=20
pretty hard to believe you know what it's all about and how to do=20
it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>YMOS</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Capt. Lahti'</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 21:02:26 -0800
From: "roger lahti" <amm1719@charter.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: winter camps and gear
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An interesting trick to add to the function of ones blanket roll.
I've found that my one or two blankets (depends on the season) work =
better if I fold them in thirds instead of just doubled down the length =
of my bed. Kinda like they made you do in the service?! Anyway it makes =
for a narrower bed roll when rolled. At night take the foot end and =
without undoing the 'three fold' just gather up the end of the bed roll =
in an accordion fashion, pleats if you will. Probably have a half dozen =
little pleats. Throw a hitch around the end of the blanket about 5" to =
6" up from the bottom using a clove hitch if you know how but basically =
just tie the end up.
If you can sleep on your back (I can't) then you will have double the =
blanket over you. If you sleep on your side as I do, you lay the outside =
fold on the bottom and the rest over you. Your feet will not kick out =
because of the tie at the foot end and the blanket will be as long as =
possible to pull over your head. And you will have a maximum amount of =
blanket to wrap over and around your front side. You will also have =
double layer over your feet which will help keep them warm.
If your not too long you can tie up the head end too and then the =
blankets work much like a mummy bag/envelope. I don't tie but the foot =
up and just pull the blankets over my head. I also have an envelope made =
of "Oily" oil cloth not linseed coated, that my blankets go into. This =
helps cut the movement of air past the blanket and add's measurably to =
the warmth. My buffalo robe doesn't need that air barrier because of the =
"hide" being on the outside when I'm rolled up in it.
Just a trick to try.
Capt. L
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>An interesting trick to add to the =
function of ones=20
blanket roll.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I've found that my one or two blankets =
(depends on=20
the season) work better if I fold them in thirds instead of just doubled =
down=20
the length of my bed. Kinda like they made you do in the service?! =
Anyway it=20
makes for a narrower bed roll when rolled. At night take the foot end =
and=20
without undoing the 'three fold' just gather up the end of the bed roll =
in an=20
accordion fashion, pleats if you will. Probably have a half dozen little =
pleats.=20
Throw a hitch around the end of the blanket about 5" to 6" up from the =
bottom=20
using a clove hitch if you know how but basically just tie the end=20
up.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If you can sleep on your back (I can't) =
then you=20
will have double the blanket over you. If you sleep on your side as I =
do, you=20
lay the outside fold on the bottom and the rest over you. Your feet will =
not=20
kick out because of the tie at the foot end and the blanket will be as =
long as=20
possible to pull over your head. And you will have a maximum amount of =
blanket=20
to wrap over and around your front side. You will also have double layer =
over=20
your feet which will help keep them warm.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If your not too long you can tie up the =
head end=20
too and then the blankets work much like a mummy bag/envelope. I don't =
tie but=20
the foot up and just pull the blankets over my head. I also have an =
envelope=20
made of "Oily" oil cloth not linseed coated, that my blankets go into. =
This=20
helps cut the movement of air past the blanket and add's measurably to =
the=20
warmth. My buffalo robe doesn't need that air barrier because of the =
"hide"=20
being on the outside when I'm rolled up in it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Just a trick to try.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Capt. L<BR></FONT><FONT =
face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT=20
size=3D2></DIV></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 10:37:30 -0500
From: "Addison Miller" <admiller@citynet.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Colonial MArket Fair in Weston, WV
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Heading out for a week to go to the Colonial MArket Fair at Jacksons =
Mill in Weston, WV... Any of you going to be there? If so, look for =
Meadowsweet Trading Company... my wifes little store. Also will have my =
trade blanket out to get rid of some of my excess "junque"... *grins*
See y'all in a week...
Regards,
Ad Miller
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Heading out for a week to go to the Colonial =
MArket Fair=20
at Jacksons Mill in Weston, WV... Any of you going to be there? If so, =
look for=20
Meadowsweet Trading Company... my wifes little store. Also will have my =
trade=20
blanket out to get rid of some of my excess "junque"... =
*grins*</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>See y'all in a week...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Ad Miller</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 11:20:30 -0700 (MST)
From: beaverboy@sofast.net
Subject: MtMan-List: Calling Frenchtown Sean
Sean,
Can you contact me off list. I lost your address.
Thanks
Beaverboy
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 16:09:43 -0500
From: "Double Edge Forge" <deforge1@bright.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Crass Commercial Announcement
Excuse the intrusion on this fine November day, but I have added several
knives to the site and you are invited to peruse them, if you care to.
http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
Sorry about the cross posts....
D
"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
Knives and Iron Accouterments
http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
"Knowing how is just the beginning."
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 11:36:48 -0500
From: hawknest4@juno.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: L&C rifles
On Sun, 2 Nov 2003 17:47:58 -0800 "roger lahti" <amm1719@charter.net> >
Slim and none. If they were working on Harpers Ferry production then
> they
> worked on what they were told to. I doubt they had much influence on
> design.
>
cpt you make a lot of assumed statements ---sam hawken worked for harpers
ferry up till 1806 and jake hawken worked there until about 1810 and
their father william worked there till he died---jake was listed in the
rolls of harpers ferry as a master builder ---not a filer nor a stocker
nor a inspector----a master builder job description was to built scratch
guns and prototypes and that includes most of the parts--- a filer filed
or made parts or cleaned up castings ---a stocker assembeled guns from
parts similar to what kit builders do today ---the basic stock lines and
dimentions of the rough parts Ie wood is the same for a hawken or a 1803
half stock but sam incorperated his tools and the good parts of the
english sporting rifle to come up with what we know know as a hawken
since sam worked there for years prior to L and C it could be highly
possible he made some of the L & C rifles even if they were not the 1803
harpers ferry---there is only 5 master builders listed for harpers ferry
and the masters would be the ones that built prototypes and or specials
for government usage---
of course this is my humbel opinion and am sorry i dont agree with your
thinking there is too much similarity between the 1803 and the hawken as
we know it as "A typical hawken".
I thank the L & C rifles were what started the thinking for the plains
rifle as we know it today and sam was involved--- in a letter to his
sister in 1807 in the mo historical archives he comments about his
experience and development of new and wonderful large bore half stock
rifles with strength to take the riggers of the westword movements and
the larger big game animals---he felt he could best make a living by
being on the cutting edge and moving to st louis the jumping off point to
the westward expansion---
again just my humbel opinion---
"Hawk"
________________________________________________________________
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Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 12:51:05 -0800
From: "RICK TABOR" <blackshirt75@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Robe Dressing
Beaver Boy,
Ogden refers in his journals to giving a prize to the indian wife
that does the best job with beaver pelts. I hope that helps.
Rick
_________________________________________________________________
Compare high-speed Internet plans, starting at $26.95.
https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.)
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Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 13:12:54 -0800
From: "RICK TABOR" <blackshirt75@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: L&C rifles
I havent read the article yet,but the latest Guns &Ammo has a detailed
article on the guns of L&C.
Rick
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Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 16:05:02 -0800
From: "roger lahti" <amm1719@charter.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: L&C rifles
<I thank the L & C rifles were what started the thinking for the plains
rifle as we know it today and Sam was involved--- in a letter to his
sister in 1807 in the mo historical archives he comments about his
experience and development of new and wonderful large bore half stock
rifles with strength to take the riggers of the westward movements and
the larger big game animals---he felt he could best make a living by
being on the cutting edge and moving to st Louis the jumping off point to
the westward expansion--->
Hawk,
It's ok to disagree with me. That's why I figured it was ok to disagree with
you. <G>
The information you shared above tells me that after the Corps returned Sam
wrote his sister telling her about the great gun he had just worked on and
he wrote this in 1807 you say? Then if he had been working on this prior to
the Corps departure for them to take why would he have waited until 1807 to
write about it? That just adds strength to my understanding that though the
Hawken Bros may have had an impact on the supposed "1803" half stock it was
not the type of rifle that the Corps carried.
And if they were listed as master builders it would also be telling to know
when they were listed as such. Before the Corps set out or later? That would
certainly have an impact on whether they might have had any influence on the
design of the half stock.
There isn't any doubt that such a half stock gun might have been a big
influence on the type of gun they later built but even at that, when did the
Hawken Brothers start building half stocks for the western trade as private
gun smiths? Seems Sam at the least was still working for Harpers Ferry
Arsenal in 1807.
Capt. Lahti'
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Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 19:10:50 -0700 (MST)
From: beaverboy@sofast.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Robe Dressing
Thanks Rick,
But no it was bison not beaver, I remember hearing someone talk about
Indian woman receiving a certain award for dressing their first 50
robes and for additional 25 or so and so on after that, sort of like
hash marks. I can't remember the details but at the time I realized the
amount of work it would have taken to dress 50 bison robes.
I can't believe no one else has heard of this. Maybe it's not true.
Thanks anyway Rick.
BB
> Beaver Boy,
> Ogden refers in his journals to giving a prize to the indian wife
> that does the best job with beaver pelts. I hope that helps.
> Rick
>
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