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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest)
To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1246
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
hist_text-digest Monday, September 22 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1246
In this issue:
-áááááá MtMan-List: Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:25:31 -0500
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:40:11 -0600
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <lanneyratcliff@charter.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:25:31 -0500
test...no reply needed.....unless you just can't help yourself.
Lanney Ratcliff
lanneyratcliff@charter.net
______________________________________________________________
Aux Aliments du Pays
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:31:23 -0500
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <lanneyratcliff@charter.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C38148.7D74F070
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Some of the best ideas are stupid. Go ride, let your back take care of =
itself !!
LR
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Wynn Ormond=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles
I have to admit this is much better documentation than I have ever =
been able to find for this stuff. Tom B suggested the Commerce of the =
Praire. I thought Dean's Site searched it with its search engine but I =
found out that it is actually on the University of Kansas site (Deans =
link is bad but it is still available on line)
I still hope that the future saddlery for period horseman will show =
more diversity. While everyone has their books open, look at the saddle =
tree pictured in the JB Sickles advertisement in Man Made Mobile (1842). =
Tell me if that is an English tree with a horn added or if it is =
something different altogether. And do you think it would work.
I am going to head out for a quick ride before dark. Hope my back =
don't let me know that it was a stupid idea.
Wynn
----- Original Message -----=20
From: GazeingCyot@cs.com=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 8:16 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles
It was asked a while back for some documentation on Bentwood =
stirrups, tapaderos, and some question on the use of ground seats. Yaro, =
one of the brothers in the AMM, did some research for me while he has =
been healing up and this is what he came up with.=20
In the book Commerce of the Prairie which was published in =
1954, there is a quote from a Josiah Greg who was an American trader =
working out of Santa Fe and Chijuajua Mexico from the years 1831 to =
1840. He stated that the Spanish saddles had stirrups that were made of =
bent wood or mortisized wood [these are the solid, carved wood stirrups] =
which are fancifully carved and over which are placed tapaderos that =
form a kind of boot to protect the foot of the rider.=20
In They Saddled the West, they state that trade between Sante =
Fe and St. Louis started very early with pack trains of mules. But in =
1822 wagons started being used over what is now known as the Sante Fe =
Trail. Part of this trade was the Sante Fe or Spanish saddles being =
brought back to St Louis. The term Sante Fe or Spanish put on these =
saddles was due to where the traders picked them up but not necessarily =
to the saddle's origin because they came also from California, Texas and =
California. It also stated that by 1790 bentwood stirrups were starting =
to be used on some Spanish saddles.=20
In Man Made Mobile, there is a letter that Grimlsey wrote in =
1833 to the quartermaster of the army about the dragoon saddles that he =
proposed to make. In this letter he talks about making a mochia that =
forms a skirt and also protects the underseat of the saddle. Said =
underseat was made out of a soft leather and padded.=20
I took these quotes over the phone while I took some hasty =
notes so they are not word for word perfect but they show the gist and =
dates of what was quoted to me from Yarrow. So if some of you have these =
books you can look them up for yourself. They do suggest the early use =
of bent wood for stirrups, the use of tapaderos, and ground seats or =
underseats during the years of the fur trade on Spanish type saddles. =
And we've already determined that Spanish saddles were used during the =
fur trade by mountain men. Whether or not they are shown in the artwork =
of the time period does not take away from the fact they were being used =
on Spanish type saddles. Just how often and how common was their use in =
the Rocky Mountains is another question.=20
see ya on the trail=20
Crazy Cyot=20
- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C38148.7D74F070
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1226" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Some of the best ideas are=20
stupid. Go ride, let your back take care of itself !!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>LR</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dcheyenne@pcu.net href=3D"mailto:cheyenne@pcu.net">Wynn =
Ormond</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com=
</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 22, =
2003 8:29=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Spanish=20
Saddles</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have to admit this is much better =
documentation=20
than I have ever been able to find for this stuff. Tom B =
suggested the=20
Commerce of the Praire. I thought Dean's Site searched it with =
its=20
search engine but I found out that it is actually on the University of =
Kansas=20
site (Deans link is bad but it is still available on =
line)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I still hope that the future saddlery =
for period=20
horseman will show more diversity. While everyone has their =
books=20
open, look at the saddle tree pictured in the JB Sickles =
advertisement in=20
Man Made Mobile (1842). Tell me if that is an English tree with =
a horn=20
added or if it is something different altogether. And do you =
think it=20
would work.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am going to head out for a quick =
ride before=20
dark. Hope my back don't let me know that it was a stupid=20
idea.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wynn</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3DGazeingCyot@cs.com=20
href=3D"mailto:GazeingCyot@cs.com">GazeingCyot@cs.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com=
</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September 21, =
2003 8:16=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Spanish=20
Saddles</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>It was =
asked a while=20
back for some documentation on Bentwood stirrups, tapaderos, and =
some=20
question on the use of ground seats. Yaro, one of the brothers in =
the AMM,=20
did some research for me while he has been healing up and this is =
what he=20
came up with. <BR> In the book =
Commerce=20
of the Prairie which was published in 1954, there is a quote from a =
Josiah=20
Greg who was an American trader working out of Santa Fe and =
Chijuajua Mexico=20
from the years 1831 to 1840. He stated that the Spanish =
saddles had=20
stirrups that were made of bent wood or mortisized wood [these are =
the=20
solid, carved wood stirrups] which are fancifully carved and over =
which are=20
placed tapaderos that form a kind of boot to protect the foot of the =
rider.=20
<BR> In They Saddled the West, =
they state=20
that trade between Sante Fe and St. Louis started very early with =
pack=20
trains of mules. But in 1822 wagons started being used over what is =
now=20
known as the Sante Fe Trail. Part of this trade was the Sante =
Fe or=20
Spanish saddles being brought back to St Louis. The term Sante =
Fe or=20
Spanish put on these saddles was due to where the traders picked =
them up but=20
not necessarily to the saddle's origin because they came also from=20
California, Texas and California. It also stated that by 1790 =
bentwood=20
stirrups were starting to be used on some Spanish saddles.=20
<BR> In Man Made Mobile, =
there is a=20
letter that Grimlsey wrote in 1833 to the quartermaster of the army =
about=20
the dragoon saddles that he proposed to make. In this letter he =
talks about=20
making a mochia that forms a skirt and also protects the underseat =
of the=20
saddle. Said underseat was made out of a soft leather and padded.=20
<BR> I took these quotes over the =
phone=20
while I took some hasty notes so they are not word for word perfect =
but they=20
show the gist and dates of what was quoted to me from Yarrow. So if =
some of=20
you have these books you can look them up for yourself. They =
do=20
suggest the early use of bent wood for stirrups, the use of =
tapaderos, and=20
ground seats or underseats during the years of the fur trade on =
Spanish type=20
saddles. And we've already determined that Spanish saddles were used =
during=20
the fur trade by mountain men. Whether or not they are shown in the =
artwork=20
of the time period does not take away from the fact they were being =
used on=20
Spanish type saddles. Just how often and how common was their use in =
the=20
Rocky Mountains is another question. <BR>see ya on the trail =
<BR>Crazy Cyot=20
<BR> </FONT> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C38148.7D74F070--
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:15:05 -0600
From: "Wynn Ormond" <cheyenne@pcu.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C3814E.982E28E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lanney, its true that stupid aint always bad. I am alive and well. =
Relatively anyway. I have one of those backs that if I get sloppy =
lifting things, like I did last Thursday, it is not very forgiving. =
Because of it, I missed a chance to go sit at the feet of a great =
shooting guru and learn wonderous lessons. Aint that right Allen?
Wynn
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Lanney Ratcliff=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles
Some of the best ideas are stupid. Go ride, let your back take care =
of itself !!
LR
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Wynn Ormond=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles
I have to admit this is much better documentation than I have ever =
been able to find for this stuff. Tom B suggested the Commerce of the =
Praire. I thought Dean's Site searched it with its search engine but I =
found out that it is actually on the University of Kansas site (Deans =
link is bad but it is still available on line)
I still hope that the future saddlery for period horseman will show =
more diversity. While everyone has their books open, look at the saddle =
tree pictured in the JB Sickles advertisement in Man Made Mobile (1842). =
Tell me if that is an English tree with a horn added or if it is =
something different altogether. And do you think it would work.
I am going to head out for a quick ride before dark. Hope my back =
don't let me know that it was a stupid idea.
Wynn
----- Original Message -----=20
From: GazeingCyot@cs.com=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 8:16 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles
It was asked a while back for some documentation on Bentwood =
stirrups, tapaderos, and some question on the use of ground seats. Yaro, =
one of the brothers in the AMM, did some research for me while he has =
been healing up and this is what he came up with.=20
In the book Commerce of the Prairie which was published in =
1954, there is a quote from a Josiah Greg who was an American trader =
working out of Santa Fe and Chijuajua Mexico from the years 1831 to =
1840. He stated that the Spanish saddles had stirrups that were made of =
bent wood or mortisized wood [these are the solid, carved wood stirrups] =
which are fancifully carved and over which are placed tapaderos that =
form a kind of boot to protect the foot of the rider.=20
In They Saddled the West, they state that trade between =
Sante Fe and St. Louis started very early with pack trains of mules. But =
in 1822 wagons started being used over what is now known as the Sante Fe =
Trail. Part of this trade was the Sante Fe or Spanish saddles being =
brought back to St Louis. The term Sante Fe or Spanish put on these =
saddles was due to where the traders picked them up but not necessarily =
to the saddle's origin because they came also from California, Texas and =
California. It also stated that by 1790 bentwood stirrups were starting =
to be used on some Spanish saddles.=20
In Man Made Mobile, there is a letter that Grimlsey wrote =
in 1833 to the quartermaster of the army about the dragoon saddles that =
he proposed to make. In this letter he talks about making a mochia that =
forms a skirt and also protects the underseat of the saddle. Said =
underseat was made out of a soft leather and padded.=20
I took these quotes over the phone while I took some hasty =
notes so they are not word for word perfect but they show the gist and =
dates of what was quoted to me from Yarrow. So if some of you have these =
books you can look them up for yourself. They do suggest the early use =
of bent wood for stirrups, the use of tapaderos, and ground seats or =
underseats during the years of the fur trade on Spanish type saddles. =
And we've already determined that Spanish saddles were used during the =
fur trade by mountain men. Whether or not they are shown in the artwork =
of the time period does not take away from the fact they were being used =
on Spanish type saddles. Just how often and how common was their use in =
the Rocky Mountains is another question.=20
see ya on the trail=20
Crazy Cyot=20
- ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C3814E.982E28E0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Lanney, its true that stupid aint =
always bad. =20
I am alive and well. Relatively anyway. I have one of =
those=20
backs that if I get sloppy lifting things, like I did last Thursday, it =
is not=20
very forgiving. Because of it, I missed a chance to go sit at the =
feet of=20
a great shooting guru and learn wonderous lessons. Aint that right =
Allen?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wynn</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dlanneyratcliff@charter.net=20
href=3D"mailto:lanneyratcliff@charter.net">Lanney Ratcliff</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com=
</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 22, =
2003 7:31=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Spanish=20
Saddles</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Some of the best ideas =
are=20
stupid. Go ride, let your back take care of itself =
!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>LR</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dcheyenne@pcu.net href=3D"mailto:cheyenne@pcu.net">Wynn =
Ormond</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com=
</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 22, =
2003 8:29=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Spanish=20
Saddles</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have to admit this is much better =
documentation than I have ever been able to find for this =
stuff. Tom B=20
suggested the Commerce of the Praire. I thought Dean's Site =
searched=20
it with its search engine but I found out that it is actually on the =
University of Kansas site (Deans link is bad but it is still =
available on=20
line)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I still hope that the future =
saddlery for=20
period horseman will show more diversity. While everyone has =
their=20
books open, look at the saddle tree pictured in the JB Sickles=20
advertisement in Man Made Mobile (1842). Tell me if that is an =
English=20
tree with a horn added or if it is something different =
altogether. And=20
do you think it would work.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am going to head out for a quick =
ride before=20
dark. Hope my back don't let me know that it was a stupid=20
idea.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wynn</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3DGazeingCyot@cs.com=20
href=3D"mailto:GazeingCyot@cs.com">GazeingCyot@cs.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com=
</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September 21, =
2003 8:16=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: =
Spanish=20
Saddles</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>It was =
asked a=20
while back for some documentation on Bentwood stirrups, tapaderos, =
and=20
some question on the use of ground seats. Yaro, one of the =
brothers in the=20
AMM, did some research for me while he has been healing up and =
this is=20
what he came up with. <BR> In =
the book=20
Commerce of the Prairie which was published in 1954, there is a =
quote from=20
a Josiah Greg who was an American trader working out of Santa Fe =
and=20
Chijuajua Mexico from the years 1831 to 1840. He stated that =
the=20
Spanish saddles had stirrups that were made of bent wood or =
mortisized=20
wood [these are the solid, carved wood stirrups] which are =
fancifully=20
carved and over which are placed tapaderos that form a kind of =
boot to=20
protect the foot of the rider. =
<BR> In=20
They Saddled the West, they state that trade between Sante Fe and =
St.=20
Louis started very early with pack trains of mules. But in 1822 =
wagons=20
started being used over what is now known as the Sante Fe Trail.=20
Part of this trade was the Sante Fe or Spanish saddles being =
brought=20
back to St Louis. The term Sante Fe or Spanish put on these =
saddles=20
was due to where the traders picked them up but not necessarily to =
the=20
saddle's origin because they came also from California, Texas and=20
California. It also stated that by 1790 bentwood stirrups were =
starting to=20
be used on some Spanish saddles.=20
<BR> In Man Made Mobile, =
there is=20
a letter that Grimlsey wrote in 1833 to the quartermaster of the =
army=20
about the dragoon saddles that he proposed to make. In this letter =
he=20
talks about making a mochia that forms a skirt and also protects =
the=20
underseat of the saddle. Said underseat was made out of a soft =
leather and=20
padded. <BR> I took these =
quotes over=20
the phone while I took some hasty notes so they are not word for =
word=20
perfect but they show the gist and dates of what was quoted to me =
from=20
Yarrow. So if some of you have these books you can look them up =
for=20
yourself. They do suggest the early use of bent wood for =
stirrups,=20
the use of tapaderos, and ground seats or underseats during the =
years of=20
the fur trade on Spanish type saddles. And we've already =
determined that=20
Spanish saddles were used during the fur trade by mountain men. =
Whether or=20
not they are shown in the artwork of the time period does not take =
away=20
from the fact they were being used on Spanish type saddles. Just =
how often=20
and how common was their use in the Rocky Mountains is another =
question.=20
<BR>see ya on the trail <BR>Crazy Cyot <BR> </FONT>=20
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:43:07 -0500
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <lanneyratcliff@charter.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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Well, dang the luck. Take care of yourself.=20
Lanney
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Wynn Ormond=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles
Lanney, its true that stupid aint always bad. I am alive and well. =
Relatively anyway. I have one of those backs that if I get sloppy =
lifting things, like I did last Thursday, it is not very forgiving. =
Because of it, I missed a chance to go sit at the feet of a great =
shooting guru and learn wonderous lessons. Aint that right Allen?
Wynn
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Lanney Ratcliff=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles
Some of the best ideas are stupid. Go ride, let your back take care =
of itself !!
LR
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Wynn Ormond=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles
I have to admit this is much better documentation than I have ever =
been able to find for this stuff. Tom B suggested the Commerce of the =
Praire. I thought Dean's Site searched it with its search engine but I =
found out that it is actually on the University of Kansas site (Deans =
link is bad but it is still available on line)
I still hope that the future saddlery for period horseman will =
show more diversity. While everyone has their books open, look at the =
saddle tree pictured in the JB Sickles advertisement in Man Made Mobile =
(1842). Tell me if that is an English tree with a horn added or if it =
is something different altogether. And do you think it would work.
I am going to head out for a quick ride before dark. Hope my back =
don't let me know that it was a stupid idea.
Wynn
----- Original Message -----=20
From: GazeingCyot@cs.com=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 8:16 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles
It was asked a while back for some documentation on Bentwood =
stirrups, tapaderos, and some question on the use of ground seats. Yaro, =
one of the brothers in the AMM, did some research for me while he has =
been healing up and this is what he came up with.=20
In the book Commerce of the Prairie which was published in =
1954, there is a quote from a Josiah Greg who was an American trader =
working out of Santa Fe and Chijuajua Mexico from the years 1831 to =
1840. He stated that the Spanish saddles had stirrups that were made of =
bent wood or mortisized wood [these are the solid, carved wood stirrups] =
which are fancifully carved and over which are placed tapaderos that =
form a kind of boot to protect the foot of the rider.=20
In They Saddled the West, they state that trade between =
Sante Fe and St. Louis started very early with pack trains of mules. But =
in 1822 wagons started being used over what is now known as the Sante Fe =
Trail. Part of this trade was the Sante Fe or Spanish saddles being =
brought back to St Louis. The term Sante Fe or Spanish put on these =
saddles was due to where the traders picked them up but not necessarily =
to the saddle's origin because they came also from California, Texas and =
California. It also stated that by 1790 bentwood stirrups were starting =
to be used on some Spanish saddles.=20
In Man Made Mobile, there is a letter that Grimlsey wrote =
in 1833 to the quartermaster of the army about the dragoon saddles that =
he proposed to make. In this letter he talks about making a mochia that =
forms a skirt and also protects the underseat of the saddle. Said =
underseat was made out of a soft leather and padded.=20
I took these quotes over the phone while I took some hasty =
notes so they are not word for word perfect but they show the gist and =
dates of what was quoted to me from Yarrow. So if some of you have these =
books you can look them up for yourself. They do suggest the early use =
of bent wood for stirrups, the use of tapaderos, and ground seats or =
underseats during the years of the fur trade on Spanish type saddles. =
And we've already determined that Spanish saddles were used during the =
fur trade by mountain men. Whether or not they are shown in the artwork =
of the time period does not take away from the fact they were being used =
on Spanish type saddles. Just how often and how common was their use in =
the Rocky Mountains is another question.=20
see ya on the trail=20
Crazy Cyot=20
- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C3815A.E4A600B0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1226" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Well, dang the luck. =
Take care of=20
yourself. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Lanney</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dcheyenne@pcu.net href=3D"mailto:cheyenne@pcu.net">Wynn =
Ormond</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com=
</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 22, =
2003 10:15=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Spanish=20
Saddles</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Lanney, its true that stupid aint =
always=20
bad. I am alive and well. Relatively anyway. I =
have one=20
of those backs that if I get sloppy lifting things, like I did last =
Thursday,=20
it is not very forgiving. Because of it, I missed a chance to go =
sit at=20
the feet of a great shooting guru and learn wonderous lessons. =
Aint that=20
right Allen?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wynn</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dlanneyratcliff@charter.net=20
href=3D"mailto:lanneyratcliff@charter.net">Lanney Ratcliff</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com=
</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 22, =
2003 7:31=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Spanish=20
Saddles</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Some of the best ideas =
are=20
stupid. Go ride, let your back take care of itself =
!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>LR</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dcheyenne@pcu.net href=3D"mailto:cheyenne@pcu.net">Wynn =
Ormond</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com=
</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 22, =
2003 8:29=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: =
Spanish=20
Saddles</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have to admit this is much =
better=20
documentation than I have ever been able to find for this =
stuff. Tom=20
B suggested the Commerce of the Praire. I thought Dean's =
Site=20
searched it with its search engine but I found out that it is =
actually on=20
the University of Kansas site (Deans link is bad but it is still =
available=20
on line)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I still hope that the future =
saddlery for=20
period horseman will show more diversity. While everyone has =
their=20
books open, look at the saddle tree pictured in the JB =
Sickles=20
advertisement in Man Made Mobile (1842). Tell me if that is =
an=20
English tree with a horn added or if it is something different=20
altogether. And do you think it would work.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am going to head out for a =
quick ride=20
before dark. Hope my back don't let me know that it was a =
stupid=20
idea.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wynn</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3DGazeingCyot@cs.com=20
href=3D"mailto:GazeingCyot@cs.com">GazeingCyot@cs.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com=
</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September =
21, 2003=20
8:16 PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: =
Spanish=20
Saddles</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>It =
was asked a=20
while back for some documentation on Bentwood stirrups, =
tapaderos, and=20
some question on the use of ground seats. Yaro, one of the =
brothers in=20
the AMM, did some research for me while he has been healing up =
and this=20
is what he came up with. =
<BR> In the=20
book Commerce of the Prairie which was published in 1954, there =
is a=20
quote from a Josiah Greg who was an American trader working out =
of Santa=20
Fe and Chijuajua Mexico from the years 1831 to 1840. He =
stated=20
that the Spanish saddles had stirrups that were made of bent =
wood or=20
mortisized wood [these are the solid, carved wood stirrups] =
which are=20
fancifully carved and over which are placed tapaderos that form =
a kind=20
of boot to protect the foot of the rider.=20
<BR> In They Saddled the =
West, they=20
state that trade between Sante Fe and St. Louis started very =
early with=20
pack trains of mules. But in 1822 wagons started being used over =
what is=20
now known as the Sante Fe Trail. Part of this trade was =
the Sante=20
Fe or Spanish saddles being brought back to St Louis. The =
term=20
Sante Fe or Spanish put on these saddles was due to where the =
traders=20
picked them up but not necessarily to the saddle's origin =
because they=20
came also from California, Texas and California. It also stated =
that by=20
1790 bentwood stirrups were starting to be used on some Spanish =
saddles.=20
<BR> In Man Made =
Mobile, there=20
is a letter that Grimlsey wrote in 1833 to the quartermaster of =
the army=20
about the dragoon saddles that he proposed to make. In this =
letter he=20
talks about making a mochia that forms a skirt and also protects =
the=20
underseat of the saddle. Said underseat was made out of a soft =
leather=20
and padded. <BR> I took these =
quotes=20
over the phone while I took some hasty notes so they are not =
word for=20
word perfect but they show the gist and dates of what was quoted =
to me=20
from Yarrow. So if some of you have these books you can look =
them up for=20
yourself. They do suggest the early use of bent wood for =
stirrups,=20
the use of tapaderos, and ground seats or underseats during the =
years of=20
the fur trade on Spanish type saddles. And we've already =
determined that=20
Spanish saddles were used during the fur trade by mountain men. =
Whether=20
or not they are shown in the artwork of the time period does not =
take=20
away from the fact they were being used on Spanish type saddles. =
Just=20
how often and how common was their use in the Rocky Mountains is =
another=20
question. <BR>see ya on the trail <BR>Crazy Cyot =
<BR> </FONT>=20
=
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>=
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------------------------------
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