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Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 18:25:31 -0600
From: James and Sue Stone <jandsstone@earthlink.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Remington's work
Lots of people compare Remington and Russel's work. Their work is
detailed, esthetic and apparently extremely accurate. Nevertheless,
some don't consider Remington an "artist" because much of his work was
for hire through "Frank Leslie's Illustrated Jourrnal" (he was one of
the newpaper illustrators present at Wounded Knee), and William
Randolph Hearst dispatched him to Cuba to send back illustrations of the
war (while Remington was in Cuba he allegedly told Hearst 'there is no
war here,' to which Hearst is said to have responded, "you supply the
pictures, I'll make the war."). Remington was hired to be with the the
military and sketch them (I think the military paid him, but it could
have been Frank Leslie's).
Call them artists or illustrators, I like them both.
Sparks
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Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 19:14:33 -0700
From: "Dale Nelson" <dnelson@wizzards.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Remington's work
Remington's work is really great if you are researching the army of the
Indian wars/Spanish American war. But he wasn't even born during the fur
trade, so nothing that happened then is from first hand experience. Russel
lived with the Indians during the early reservation period, and he knew some
of the old mountain men, but he wasn't there either. So you have to be
careful with both if you are striving for authenticity up to 1840.
Dale Nelson
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "James and Sue Stone" <jandsstone@earthlink.net>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 5:25 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Remington's work
> Lots of people compare Remington and Russel's work. Their work is
> detailed, esthetic and apparently extremely accurate. Nevertheless,
> some don't consider Remington an "artist" because much of his work was
> for hire through "Frank Leslie's Illustrated Jourrnal" (he was one of
> the newpaper illustrators present at Wounded Knee), and William
> Randolph Hearst dispatched him to Cuba to send back illustrations of the
> war (while Remington was in Cuba he allegedly told Hearst 'there is no
> war here,' to which Hearst is said to have responded, "you supply the
> pictures, I'll make the war."). Remington was hired to be with the the
> military and sketch them (I think the military paid him, but it could
> have been Frank Leslie's).
>
> Call them artists or illustrators, I like them both.
> Sparks
>
>
>
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> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
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Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 19:50:39 -0700
From: "Dale Nelson" <dnelson@wizzards.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Wynn Ormond" <cheyenne@pcu.net>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
> So what's up with the shaved tails? I had wondered if those animals had a
> lot of donkey in the mix and got those tails from Dad. Why did they take
> away the fly swatter?
> Wynn
That's why a second lieutenant in the army is called a shave tail. They
shave -- and in some cases bell -- the tails on the mules. Hence a second
louey is being refered to as a mule. The outfits I worked for did it, but
mostly out of tradition I think. One old timer I worked with wouldn't let
them bell the tails of the mules in his string. He said it makes his Molly
mule look like a whore. I think -- but this isn't a backed up fact, and I
can't prove it, but I remember being told that the shaved upper part of the
tail was so when you were catching up your livestock in the dark you could
tell the horses from the mules. The bells were cut in the tail to show what
the mule was trained for. Saddle mule had one cut, pack mule another,
harness in the team yet another, stuff like that. Going one step further,
in California when they were training bridle horses, it took several years
to get them into a bit. They'd start in a hackamore, then in a year or two
when the horse would handled well in that rig they'd put the heavy spade gag
bit in his mouth and let him carry it and work the roller and get used to
it, for maybe another year, then they'd ride him with four reins for a year
or so, just using the bit when they were doing easy work, but going back to
the hachamore for anything that might make you a little more heavy handed.
After another year or so they would have the horse bitted up, using one of
those California gag spade bits that folks that don't know any better think
is for hard mouthed horses. But it's just the opposite. They are for the
lightest mouthed bridle horses ever. A well trained California bridle horse
will slide to a stop, and roll back over his hocks, or from a standing start
spin 180 degrees front feet hitting the ground at 90, and you won't see the
riders hand move. The bit is not painful to the horse, but the way it is
designed the slighest movement of the hands is relayed to the horses mouth.
Sounds like I'm way off subject, talking about shaved tails, so I'll get
back, sorta. This is about notches cut or shaved into the mane. Up by the
horses ears they'd cut a notch in the mane to show what the horse was being
ridden with. One cut for a hackamore, another for bit and hackamore, and a
third cut to tell if he was a finished bridle horse. Then when you didn't
know any of the horses in that herd and you cut one out of the bunch you
knew what he was being ridden with, and wouldn't ruin someones years of
work.
Dale Nelson
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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 05:39:09 -0700
From: Rick Guglielmi <rickg@oregontrail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Dale,
Interesting piece on shaved tails and progression of bits on a California
reining horse. I was always told that a shaved tail on a mule (shaved at
the bace,not the belled) indicated a young mule, which is where the term
came about for 2nd lieutenants in the army. A shaved tailed second
Lieutenant was right out of the Acadamy or some other officer trainig program.
Since I am typing away here I would like to add something to the
disscussion on stirrups and taps. Once again i refer back to the book "Man
Made Moble". There are several pictures and discriptions of what they call
a Hybrid saddle, which if I read things right is also what is termed a
"half spanish" saddle. The Saddle makers or the St. Louis area seemed to
be pretty stuck in their ways and not willing to accept the quailities of
the spanich rigs so they seemed to "Americanized" the spanich trees with
some of the english features. Getting to my point from what I read this
was taking place as early as the 1930's. The pictures show pear-shaped
bent wood stirrups and stirrup covers or Tapaderas. The dates on the sadle
are shown as 1840. As I mentioned earlier, This type of saddle just does
not look like it would hold up under the hars conditions of the Mountain
west. It would not be hard to convince me that as these "Hybrid" saddles
began to fall apart they were reworked to resemble the true spanish saddle
by either their owner while in a winter camp or possibley a mexican saddle
maker in the settlements of Northern Mexico. Removal of the padding both
under the bars and on the seat, heavy stirrup leathers over the bars
instead of though a metal ring and stouter type of rigging.
Keep the information, opinions and ideas coming, although I am short on
research material I am continually trying to apply some type of practical
sense to the knowledge I do have and how that would evolve in a real life
situation. Such as how I would carry items on my saddle without the use of
saddle bags, this isn't brain surgery and common sense and materials at
hand at the time would dictate how I would arrive at my goal. It could be
as simple as a piece of canvas, or blanket with the neccessary gear wrapped
up and tied off, then this could be roled up in your bed roll, coat or what
ever you tied on behing the cantel. or your canvas wrapped items could be
tied on seperately. Anyway I am starting to ramble, more later.
Rick
At 07:50 PM 09/16/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Wynn Ormond" <cheyenne@pcu.net>
>To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 8:38 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
>
>
> > So what's up with the shaved tails? I had wondered if those animals had a
> > lot of donkey in the mix and got those tails from Dad. Why did they take
> > away the fly swatter?
> > Wynn
>
>That's why a second lieutenant in the army is called a shave tail. They
>shave -- and in some cases bell -- the tails on the mules. Hence a second
>louey is being refered to as a mule. The outfits I worked for did it, but
>mostly out of tradition I think. One old timer I worked with wouldn't let
>them bell the tails of the mules in his string. He said it makes his Molly
>mule look like a whore. I think -- but this isn't a backed up fact, and I
>can't prove it, but I remember being told that the shaved upper part of the
>tail was so when you were catching up your livestock in the dark you could
>tell the horses from the mules. The bells were cut in the tail to show what
>the mule was trained for. Saddle mule had one cut, pack mule another,
>harness in the team yet another, stuff like that. Going one step further,
>in California when they were training bridle horses, it took several years
>to get them into a bit. They'd start in a hackamore, then in a year or two
>when the horse would handled well in that rig they'd put the heavy spade gag
>bit in his mouth and let him carry it and work the roller and get used to
>it, for maybe another year, then they'd ride him with four reins for a year
>or so, just using the bit when they were doing easy work, but going back to
>the hachamore for anything that might make you a little more heavy handed.
>After another year or so they would have the horse bitted up, using one of
>those California gag spade bits that folks that don't know any better think
>is for hard mouthed horses. But it's just the opposite. They are for the
>lightest mouthed bridle horses ever. A well trained California bridle horse
>will slide to a stop, and roll back over his hocks, or from a standing start
>spin 180 degrees front feet hitting the ground at 90, and you won't see the
>riders hand move. The bit is not painful to the horse, but the way it is
>designed the slighest movement of the hands is relayed to the horses mouth.
>Sounds like I'm way off subject, talking about shaved tails, so I'll get
>back, sorta. This is about notches cut or shaved into the mane. Up by the
>horses ears they'd cut a notch in the mane to show what the horse was being
>ridden with. One cut for a hackamore, another for bit and hackamore, and a
>third cut to tell if he was a finished bridle horse. Then when you didn't
>know any of the horses in that herd and you cut one out of the bunch you
>knew what he was being ridden with, and wouldn't ruin someones years of
>work.
>Dale Nelson
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 07:52:02 -0700
From: "Dale Nelson" <dnelson@wizzards.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Guglielmi" <rickg@oregontrail.net>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 5:39 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
> Dale,
> Interesting piece on shaved tails and progression of bits on a California
> reining horse. I was always told that a shaved tail on a mule (shaved at
> the bace,not the belled) indicated a young mule, which is where the term
> came about for 2nd lieutenants in the army. A shaved tailed second
> Lieutenant was right out of the Acadamy or some other officer trainig
program.
Rick,
Like I said, don't take anything I said about mule tails as the unvarnished
truth. I'm just repeating what I've been told in the distant past. I think
I'd tend to believe what you were told about the lieutenants being called
shave tails, and figure the bells were some sort of a code to keep the
critters sorted out and doing what they are supposed to. I suppose people
that hadn't been around mules, and there are lots of them in this day and
age, looking at Miller paintings would figure the critters were born with a
tail like that, which isn't true, and there was a reason for cutting the
hair off them. Maybe somebody in a journal somewhere wrote the reason why,
and then the finder of that information will share with us.
Dale
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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:37:36 -0400
From: mnail@up.net
Subject: MtMan-List: Shave tails
Guys, I've been following this thread with quite a bit of interests, as my knowledge base on horses and and saddlery is absolutely nill, but I thought I'd volunteer this etymological tidbit on the "Shaved tail" thread"
Here's Webster's take on the origins of the word:
"Etymology: from the practice of shaving the tails of newly broken mules to distinguish them from seasoned ones
Date: 1846
1 : a pack mule especially when newly broken in
2 usually disparaging : SECOND LIEUTENANT."
here's where I found it. http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=shavetails
and The main website is merriamwebster.com
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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:24:45 -0600 (MDT)
From: beaverboy@sofast.net
Subject: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah
It rained and snowed last Friday here in Montana. Up to 4" inches of
snow in the mountains last night, too. The fires are finally out.
Thank God.
I drove by a huge firecamp last Friday morning and all the
firefighters were wearing ponchos and rain gear in the rain! That was
a nice sight.
Fall has come to the Rockies.
bb
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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:27:07 -0500
From: "Don & Janice Shero" <deshero@pionet.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Museums
Check out the website for Gilcrease museum in Tulsa.
Also Woolaroc museum and Davis Gun museum are close.
& The museum of the Southern Plains Indian in OK. Don
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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:31:07 -0600
From: "David A. Miller" <dammiller@juno.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah
It was snowing here, this morning, in the Southern end of the Cache
Valley (Willow Valley to you mountaineers)... been watching those long
necks heading south for the last month... might be an early winter...
maybe a hard one at that!
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:24:45 -0600 (MDT) beaverboy@sofast.net writes:
> It rained and snowed last Friday here in Montana. Up to 4" inches
> of
> snow in the mountains last night, too. The fires are finally out.
> Thank God.
> I drove by a huge firecamp last Friday morning and all the
> firefighters were wearing ponchos and rain gear in the rain! That
