ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/hist_text/archive/v01.n124

Internet Message Format | 1998-08-13 | 39KB

From: [e-mail] (hist_text-digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #124
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


hist_text-digest        Friday, August 14 1998        Volume 01 : Number 124




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 11:49:30 -0400
From: paul mueller <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: sewing machine

John Kramer wrote:
>
> Steve,
>
> I have seen late 1700's Philadelphia newspaper advertisements for seven color
> calico.  That's early enough for me.
>
> Couldn't say who's the best, haven't seen every bodies work.  You pays your
> money and you takes your chances.  Know when you ask a seamstress to make a
> fine shirt and sew it all by hand it is going to be expensive because it takes
> a lot of time.  Machine sewn shirts are accepted by most as a practical
> alternative, even though those wondrous machines haven't been invented yet.
>
> Go buy some 100% cotton calico in appropriate colors.  Fold a big hunk over
> wide enough to wrap your middle and long enough to reach half way down to the
> knees.  Cut a couple of rectangles big enough for sleeves.  Cut a hole for
> your
> head and stitch up and on  the sleeves and up the sides, fancy it up with
> collars, hems, cuffs, drawstrings or such; or just tie the cuff with a thong.
> You're done.
>
> If you sew it all with silk, cotton or linen thread; by hand, it will be
> exactly right.
>
> Cloth by the yard has always been cheaper than finished goods, folks have
> always had differing degrees of tailoring skills.  If you think about how
> someone in the mountains might have met his needs and then work in the spirit
> of the times, use materials and techniques consistent with what was available,
> and do things the simple way they've been done for centuries, it's pretty hard
> to go far wrong.  A hand sewn shirt was as expensive then as it is now, if you
> examine the relative value of the money.  Those were GOLD dollars they were
> spending.  There are extensive postings in Dean's archives about monetary
> values as related to blankets in 1837.
>
> Of course if you portray William Drummond Stewart this shirt is not
> appropriate.  There was only one of him: the hundreds were the camp keepers
> and
> company men for them this is entirely appropriate, they needed shirts too.  If
> they bought a little cloth instead of a shirt, they could buy a little more
> whiskey.  They had time to stitch it up while they drank the whiskey.
>
> John...
>
> At 02:17 PM 8/11/98 -0400, you wrote:
> >Ho the list,
> >I'm sure this has been covered before, but I need to know how long "Calico"
> >shirts have been around.... and who makes the best drop sleeve calico shirts.
> >I need a green or brown one for hunting this fall..... looks nicer than camo.
> >
> >Steve
> >
> Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
> John Kramer  <[e-mail]>


    John,
 sorry to say but a type of sewing machine was invented and used.in
1790 thomas saint patened an apparatus which sewed and had many of the
features of the modern chain stitch machine but not with a eye in the
needle. barthe'lemy thimmonier  patened the modern sewing machine in
1830 and it had an eye in the needle as it was called a sewing machine.
the item that saint had was about the size if a small room so it was
very uncommon for it to be used but it was there in the time frame.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:25:45 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Calico

>Ho the list,
>I'm sure this has been covered before, but I need to know how long "Calico"
>shirts have been around.... and who makes the best drop sleeve calico shirts.
>I need a green or brown one for hunting this fall..... looks nicer than camo.
>
>Steve

Calico cloth has been around for a long time, at least since the British
cotton trade out of India in the 17th century.  The word calico comes from
Calcutta, from which the  cloth was exported.  Calico, defined, is any
printed cotton cloth.  It goes beyond the cloth printed with the little
tiny flowers we're so used to seeing at events.  Gingham (picnic tablecloth
pattern) is a good example of a period pattern, and is a good place to
start.  Most fabric stores stock printed cotton cloth, and it's usually
very inexpensive.  Do some research on print patterns and then visit your
local cloth store.

I know I didn't answer your question, but just yesterday I borrowed some
books from the Tech library on 19th century women's fashions and period
textile design so my wife can have another dress made.  There are lots of
resources out there on the history of fabrics and textiles.  One book that
works well is _Calico Chronicle_ by Betty Mills (1985).  Betty used to be a
curator here till she retired.  She still lives in town.  The book is still
in print.  Also the Amanda paper doll series is good, and well documented.
All or most examples are from our museum collection.  _Buckskin and
Homespun_, by David Holman and Billie Parsons (1979) is another well
documented book that deals with mid 19th c. frontier clothing styles and
fabrics.  It's out of print, but should be available thru interlibrary
loan.

Green calico in lieu of camo seems a good way to go.  Could be one reason
why the trappers seemed to prefer prints to solids.

As for the best, I don't know.  My shirts suit me, and they are
historically correct.  Whether they are the best or not, that's for someone
else to say.

Cheers,
HBC



*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 19:37:00 -0500
From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Magazine Sale

Washtahay-
    Got a bunch of ML and BPC magazines I am throwing out on the blanket.  If
you are interested, drop me a note off-line.
LongWalker c. du B.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 22:10:08 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Desperately seeking a persona

Hi all,  I am going through a buckskinners mid-life crisis.  I have been
buckskinning for a little over ten years now and have gone through a lot of
the transitions that many of you have been through.  I started out with the
machine sewn, gold tan buckskins and T&C hawken and have slowly migrated to
smoke tan hand sewn buckskins and a flintlock.  I had it in my mind that I
wanted to emulate the western fur trade around the 1830's, but I find that
many of my tastes are drawn to the eastern woodsman.  I was intrigued by the
discussion about eastern influences on the western mountain man.  The question
I would like to pose to the list is this, how did you arive at your persona?
What were the influences, feelings, and reasons that made you settle on a
certain era.  I intially chose the western fur trade because I have grown up
in the west, however, I had relatives who fought in the revolution and I am
silently drawn to them as well.  I have been contemplating changing my focus
to that of a newly arrived easterner in the western mountains in the early
early 1800's.  Does anyone have any references to primary sources that I could
research such a persona?  As always I appreciate your wonderful responses.

Grant

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 21:27:35 +0000
From: David & Evelyn Mullen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Free trappers vs company men

Henry,

Sorry for taking so long to reply to your question. The following
information may be found in Volume 10 of the Hafen series. The article
is entitled _A Statistical View_ by Richard J. Fehrman, and deals
exclusively with trappers/ traders in the series. The following is a
quote from pages 10-11 (Vol. 10 - Hafen):

"Another subject is that of the fur companies which were in operation in
the trans-Mississippi area and the number of men belonging to each. This
cannot be definitive, for numbers of trappers switched service from one
company to another. The American Fur Company employed the largest number
of men (39), in fact, nearly two to one over the Hudson's Bay (22) and
the Missouri Fur (22) companies. Of the nineteen fur companies
represented, these three companies accounted for the employment of 30%,
or more than half of the trappers associated with fur companies; 29%
being with the other sixteen companies. However, 41% or 118 were free
agents, or as many as with the first six leading companies combined.
"The term "free agents" signified that although he might be carried on a
company roll, he could trap where he chose, either in a regular
expedition or alone but usually sold his furs to the company."

As you can see, of the known biographies, 41% were free trappers. In my
estimation this number is skewed upwards and should not be applied to
the fur trade as a whole. In a typical fur period rendezvous there would
have been a large number of "common" folk acting as engagees and
campkeepers (probably of French-Canadian decent). Sixty percent of the
mountain men were of French Canadian decent according to Harvey Carter
in _Stereotypes of the Mountain Man_, yet made up only 15 percent of the
biographies included in the Hafen series. One would have to look at the
ethnicity and nationality of these "Free Trappers" to make a valid
comparison for the entire fur trade.

Hope this of some help,
David

Henry B. Crawford wrote:
>
> Has anyone out there ever come across or done research on the proportion of
> free trappers vs company men during the Rendezvous period of the fur trade?
> A question was posed to me regarding which were the more numerous.  I
> couldn't say, except that for there to have been more free trappers, there
> would have to be thousands of them, given the size of those company
> brigades.  Anyone out there have a clue.
>
> TIA,
> HBC

- --
David Mullen
202 Mesa Verde
Jemez Springs, NM 87025
505.829.3212
email:[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 21:52:22 -0700
From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Desperately seeking a persona

[e-mail] wrote:

> Hi all,  I am going through a buckskinners mid-life crisis.

<snip>

> I had it in my mind that I wanted to emulate the western fur trade around the
> 1830's, but I find that many of my tastes are drawn to the eastern woodsman.

<snip again>

Grant,

I too have started out to create the persona of a western fur trapper and like you
my interest has been drawn to the eastern woodsman.  If I keep going backward not
only will I end up broke, I'll end up a Roman Soldier!
My interest is greatly affected by the beauty of the Rocky Mountains, especially
the area around the Grand Tetons.  The idea of living in that time and place as
well as the free spiritedness of those great men who made their lives in that wild
untouched land captures my soul!
I think I'm going to strive for a more early persona that would more resemble one
of the first men to come to the Rockies.  By my reading, that persona would
probably closer resemble the eastern woodsman than what we have come to think of.
I too will be looking for some good documentation to validate that assumption.  I
was just looking at a "southern rifle", flintlock of course, and wondering if a
rifle like that would have been the kind that made one of the first trips west.
We've got our work cut out for us no doubt!

Medicine Bear
(Don't sweat the small things and don't pet the sweaty things!)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:59:21 -0700
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Desperately seeking a persona

Grant and Medicine Bear:

Sounds like you two are living the same dreams as I have. I've gone through the same
mental transformation over the last 15+ years and when I ask myself why or am asked
why this is what I come up with, nothing romantic about it though.

A number of years ago I found myself carrying a Charleville Musket more often than my
.54 cal. flint half stock. I also found that to go trekking, I needed to find a better
way to carry my gear than on horse back cause I didn't have a horse but the gear I
carried was what one would have if on horse back. This all lead to a natural tendency
toward doing things the way the eastern longhunter would do them what with being on
foot most of the time. Since it has become fashionable to define what period of
history and what 'persona' you are recreating; the Charleville and the knapsack and
haversack, the eastern clothing all made me see that I was doing and dressing more
eastern than not. So.......  One thought lead to another and I picture myself as a man
of independent means who has served in the military and is off to see the interior of
this country. Depending on what time period the event is placed in, my persona
(without going into too much detail) will reasonably place me in that time frame
because all my gear is of such a vintage that it could reasonably be expected to have
existed at that time, whether we are talking F&I or Rocky Mt. Fur Trade.

Now as to historical justification one need only look to the Lewis and Clark Journals
and the writings of Washington Irving on the Wilson Price Hunt Party to Fort Astoria
in 1810 to find accounts of 'long hunters' coming and going into and from the Eastern
and Western halves of this continent from well before the L&C Expedition and well into
the Fur Trade era of the 1800's. What you see in what contemporary paintings and
sketches remain of the rendezvous is a strong retention of what we would
easily/readily recognize as 'eastern garments'. The same can be said for fire arms
too. Many researchers like Charles Hansen have found that the long gun was the
predominant fire arm of the fur trapper and western explorer with very notable but
uncommon exceptions; i.e. 1803 Harpers Ferry muskets going with L&C. It has been shown
that Hawkens Guns were not even that common.

Anyway this is what I've picked up over the years and I can only assume that for the
most part it is more how things were than what we thought just 20 or 30 years back
when I was first getting started. I claim no perfect knowledge of the history of this
country and am more than ready to learn the truth. I do know that if you wish to be
flexible in your persona you must remember that you will tie yourself to a given date
back in time by the newest piece of gear you have on you. With that piece of gear on,
you will not be able to place yourself in an earlier time. That usually is your long
gun and so that is why I choose to carry a Tulle' or a fire arm of the pre Rev. War
era. I am in the planning stage right now to build myself a Virginia Rifle in .58 cal.
with Oct. to Round  44" barrel.

I hope this was of use to you. I would be interested to hear what your thoughts are. I
remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Frank wrote:

> [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > Hi all,  I am going through a buckskinners mid-life crisis.
>
> <snip>
>
> > I had it in my mind that I wanted to emulate the western fur trade around the
> > 1830's, but I find that many of my tastes are drawn to the eastern woodsman.
>
> <snip again>
>
> Grant,
>
> I too have started out to create the persona of a western fur trapper and like you
> my interest has been drawn to the eastern woodsman.  If I keep going backward not
> only will I end up broke, I'll end up a Roman Soldier!
> My interest is greatly affected by the beauty of the Rocky Mountains, especially
> the area around the Grand Tetons.  The idea of living in that time and place as
> well as the free spiritedness of those great men who made their lives in that wild
> untouched land captures my soul!
> I think I'm going to strive for a more early persona that would more resemble one
> of the first men to come to the Rockies.  By my reading, that persona would
> probably closer resemble the eastern woodsman than what we have come to think of.
> I too will be looking for some good documentation to validate that assumption.  I
> was just looking at a "southern rifle", flintlock of course, and wondering if a
> rifle like that would have been the kind that made one of the first trips west.
> We've got our work cut out for us no doubt!
>
> Medicine Bear
> (Don't sweat the small things and don't pet the sweaty things!)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 19:22:20 -0700
From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: sewing machine

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_01BDC6EF.B1126CA0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


But you forgot about they couldn't find a thread that would work until the
late 30's or 40's later Jon T
- ----------
: From: paul mueller <[e-mail]>
: To: [e-mail]
: Subject: MtMan-List: Re: sewing machine
: Date: Wednesday, August 12, 1998 8:49 AM
: :
:     John,
:  sorry to say but a type of sewing machine was invented and used.in
: 1790 thomas saint patened an apparatus which sewed and had many of the
: features of the modern chain stitch machine but not with a eye in the
: needle. barthe'lemy thimmonier  patened the modern sewing machine in
: 1830 and it had an eye in the needle as it was called a sewing machine.
: the item that saint had was about the size if a small room so it was
: very uncommon for it to be used but it was there in the time frame.
:
- ------=_NextPart_000_01BDC6EF.B1126CA0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial"><br>But you forgot about they couldn't =
find a thread that would work until the late 30's or 40's later Jon =
T<br>----------<br>: From: paul mueller <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>: To: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>: Subject: MtMan-List: Re: sewing machine<br>: =
Date: Wednesday, August 12, 1998 8:49 AM<br>: : <br>: =
    John,<br>:  sorry to say but a type of =
sewing machine was invented and used.in<br>: 1790 thomas saint patened =
an apparatus which sewed and had many of the<br>: features of the modern =
chain stitch machine but not with a eye in the<br>: needle. barthe'lemy =
thimmonier  patened the modern sewing machine in<br>: 1830 and it =
had an eye in the needle as it was called a sewing machine.<br>: the =
item that saint had was about the size if a small room so it was<br>: =
very uncommon for it to be used but it was there in the time frame.<br>: =
</p>
</font></font></font></font></font></body></html>
- ------=_NextPart_000_01BDC6EF.B1126CA0--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:41:37 -0600
From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston

>Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:40:35 -0600 (MDT)
>X-Template: /home/users/d/drudy/public_html/mail.txt
>To: <[e-mail]>
>From: Dennis "Liver-Eatin'" McLelland <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Liver-Eating Johnston
>
>
> I've just completed a book, The Life and Times of John Liver-Eating
Johnston," and I wonder if you or any of your buddies have any last minute
items, tidbits, anecdotes, before I publish. Johnston was born in New
Jersey in 1824, and supposedly made it out west to California, Colorado, to
Montana in about 1845. The largely fictitious book "Crow Killer" had
Johnston killing Crow braves. What a crok! He lived with the Crow for years!
>
>Anyway, e-mail when you can.
>
>Dennis
>
>--
>This e-mail was generated from the world-wide web; the e-mail address
>    "Dennis "Liver-Eatin'" McLelland <[e-mail]>"
>may be incorrect.
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 16:52:46 +0000
From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Desperately seeking a persona

Grant,  I too have had a hard time defining my time period.  As of late I
am a transitional Mtn. Man = early fur trade.  When the early (1820's)
adventurers left St Louis they didn't just change their clothes & gear.
There was an evolution of clothing, style, and gear.  I am a westerner,
but the last few years have been spent trekking with easterners.  I have
noticed that the eastern type clothing is more functional for the type of
activities that I do.  I have taken to wearing knee britches and above
the knee leggings.  My western friends call me a cross dresser!
According to miller's field sketches, knee britches were common.  Joe
Meek told about breaking winter camp and cutting off their trousers at
the knee.  This was to facilitate wading in streams in more comfort.  I
tend to trek in canoe, so the knee britches/leggings combo.  works great.
 In a nut shell I've developed my 'persona' on the gear that works best
for me in the field.  I think that if I lived 200 yrs. ago, I would do
the same thing.....use what worked for me.    Hardtack

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:26:15 -0500
From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest

Washtahay-
    sorry about the delay on this.  I finished trashing out my right arm this
week, doc has me on some wierd meds that make me want to sleep all the
time.  So far, no entrants in the contest.  Hawk suggested last week
extending the deadline from a week to a month.  Guess he was right-so lets
punch the date out to 7 September.
LongWalker c. du B.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:04:31 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Colters Run

It was recently suggested here that the the popular version of Colters Run
which we have all heard countless times may have in fact been an exaggeration
on Colters part and that the Blackfoot tribes tell the story differently.  I
have anxiously awaited further information on this topic and a source of the
Blackfoot version. At this point I still tend to put credence in Colters
version, but am always seeking the truth in things and feel that if someone
steps forward to question or discredit something, then it falls upon them to
offer evidence to the contrary for all our betterment.

Todd Glover

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:39:28 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest

7 september is a good date for the contest we may have a winner by
default id someone out there other than myself doesnt post something---
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:26:15 -0500 Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Washtahay-
>    sorry about the delay on this.  I finished trashing out my
>right arm this
>week, doc has me on some wierd meds that make me want to sleep all the
>time.  So far, no entrants in the contest.  Hawk suggested last week
>extending the deadline from a week to a month.  Guess he was right-so
>lets
>punch the date out to 7 September.
>LongWalker c. du B.
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 02:37:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Old Cataldo Mission Trade Rendezvous (N. Idaho)

For those of you in the Great Pacific Northwest... Tony, of Mountain Top
Trading, just reminded me of an upcoming event...

****************************
The Cataldo Trade Rendezvous

When: Aug 21, 22 & 23

Where: The Old Cataldo Mission, Idaho. From Couer D'Alene, go east on 90,
       signs will be posted.

Details: Call the Park at 208-682-3814. This is supposed to be a really
         good event that is getting better every year. Whether you need
         supplies, or just want to sit around and talk Blackpowder stuff,
         I have it on good authority (from several sources) it's a good
         one.

More Info? [phone]

Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 02:58:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Muzzleloading Webring for those with Webpages

Of interest to those with webpages and links, there are a couple of
webrings now in existance that could concievably replace the standard link
pages.

One of them is the "Mountain Man Webring" at;
http://www.healingearth.com/mtnmanweb.html

Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:24:20 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colters Run

>It was recently suggested here that the the popular version of Colters Run
>which we have all heard countless times may have in fact been an exaggeration
>on Colters part and that the Blackfoot tribes tell the story differently.  I
>have anxiously awaited further information on this topic and a source of the
>Blackfoot version. At this point I still tend to put credence in Colters
>version, but am always seeking the truth in things and feel that if someone
>steps forward to question or discredit something, then it falls upon them to
>offer evidence to the contrary for all our betterment.
>
>Todd Glover

Todd,
I'm waiting to hear back from a Blackfeet friend (poet and historian) in
Kalispell who told me the story.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:04:38 -0400
From: "Thomas H. Harbold" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest

Hmmmm...?

Sorry, folks, but I've just signed on and haven't a clue what this is
about! Anyone care to enlighten me? Please? Thanks!

Being newly interested in this time period (most of my
reenacting/re-creating has been medieval-era), I'm also fascinated by the
"Desperately seeking a persona" discussion. Thanks to all contributors!

Take care,

Tom



At 12:39 AM -0400 8/14/98, Michael Pierce wrote:
>7 september is a good date for the contest we may have a winner by
>default id someone out there other than myself doesnt post something---
>      "Hawk"
>Michael Pierce
>854 Glenfield Dr.
>Palm Harbor, florida   34684
>1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
>
>On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:26:15 -0500 Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
>writes:
>>Washtahay-
>>    sorry about the delay on this.  I finished trashing out my
>>right arm this
>>week, doc has me on some wierd meds that make me want to sleep all the
>>time.  So far, no entrants in the contest.  Hawk suggested last week
>>extending the deadline from a week to a month.  Guess he was right-so
>>lets
>>punch the date out to 7 September.
>>LongWalker c. du B.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:27:12 -0600
From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Lewis and Clark Journals

Dean,

Here's an addditional request for information about Lewis and Clark first
source material:  where are Lewis's nature notes located and how can the
nature notes be obtained for study?

Dave
- -----Original Message-----
From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Wednesday, August 12, 1998 8:05 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Lewis and Clark Journals


>>Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 11:25:00 -0500
>>From: A Corbitt <[e-mail]>
>>X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-KIT  (Win95; U)
>>To: [e-mail]
>>Subject: Lewis and Clark Journals
>>X-URL: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/hist_text-arch4/msg00666.html
>>
>>Has the cd-rom version of these journals been released?
>>Any information would be appreciated.
>>Joel C Corbitt
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:44:48 -0600
From: "David Tippets" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston

If you can find a copy of the book, "Tracks Along the Yellowstone," it
contains some of the history of John Johnson while he lived in Redlodge and
other areas close to the Yellowstone River in Montana.  It also includes an
account of his death in a VA hospital in Los Angeles.

The book also contains an account of another old timer in the Gardner, MT,
area that locals considered the last of the real mountain men.  He wintered
in a wall tent just outside of the town of Gardner, and was reported to have
gone barefoot when around camp -- even in the winter.  It was also reported
that he was comfortable in only his wool long handles when most people
shivered inside their coats.  I've got find another copy of the book to
refresh my memory of that individual's name.

The book is long out of print, hard to find, and commands a high price with
collectors.  The last copy I found was wearing a $275 price tag.
Fortunately, many libraries have a copy.


- -----Original Message-----
From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Thursday, August 13, 1998 10:20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston


>>Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:40:35 -0600 (MDT)
>>X-Template: /home/users/d/drudy/public_html/mail.txt
>>To: <[e-mail]>
>>From: Dennis "Liver-Eatin'" McLelland <[e-mail]>
>>Subject: Liver-Eating Johnston
>>
>>
>> I've just completed a book, The Life and Times of John Liver-Eating
>Johnston," and I wonder if you or any of your buddies have any last minute
>items, tidbits, anecdotes, before I publish. Johnston was born in New
>Jersey in 1824, and supposedly made it out west to California, Colorado, to
>Montana in about 1845. The largely fictitious book "Crow Killer" had
>Johnston killing Crow braves. What a crok! He lived with the Crow for
years!
>>
>>Anyway, e-mail when you can.
>>
>>Dennis
>>
>>--
>>This e-mail was generated from the world-wide web; the e-mail address
>>    "Dennis "Liver-Eatin'" McLelland <[e-mail]>"
>>may be incorrect.
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:49:06 -0500
From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest

At 10:04 AM 8/14/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Hmmmm...?
>
>Sorry, folks, but I've just signed on and haven't a clue what this is
>about! Anyone care to enlighten me? Please? Thanks!
>
ashtahay-
    We have our judges-John Kramer, Hawk, and myself (LongWalker c. du B).
The prize pool has grown to a rum horn, horn cup, a pre-1840 large cent,
and a hand made turkey call.  Here are the rules:
    We want to locate an original hunting pouch that we can document as having
been in use on the frontier in the years 1825 to 1835, with the target date
of 1830.  Here are the criteria the bag must meet:
    "Frontier" is defined as Rocky Mountains, Santa Fe trade, Texas, or the
Missouri River trade.  We should probably include bags in use in the St
Louis area and west within Missouri.  While I would love to hear about the
bags in use in the North during this time, that isn't the target area.
    "Document" is defined as being able to objectively date as having been in
use in the area defined as "Frontier".  By objectively, I mean by
contemporary records or a chain of evidence.  The assignment of dates, for
example Madison Grant's "ca 1820-1840" does NOT count, unless supported by
other available information (an example being the bag he shows on pp 74-75
of KRHP).  If you can come up with a bag that went with the supply trains
to Rendezvous, great!  But the bag used by some famous mountain man in the
late 1850s isn't what we are looking for.
    The bag must be published or accessible to the public.  The folks on the
list must have some way of accessing the bag, to examine and evaluate it
for their own purposes.  Be prepared to furnish supporting documentation.
    If you find the bag, submit the information to me directly, or to the
list.  If you get in under the deadline with preliminary information and it
takes a while for the judges' committee to reach a decision, you still win
if we can agree the bag meets the criteria.
    Deadline for submission is 7 September 1998.

Let the hunt begin!

LongWalker c. du B., tilter at windmills, and occasional champion of lost
causes

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:34:05 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest

tom will repost the rules to the contest  the ending date is now in
september because no-one submitted a entry---prizes are a hand made
turkey call, a hand made horn  cup and a rum horn or something like that
and a pre 1840 big penny---there is three of us judgeing it
kramer---myself--jim cogburn--- I have a couple of pre 1840 original bags
that are not in very good shape that I can date and verify but I
disqualified myself so that we can get new input---this is a fun thing
that jim came up with to promote interest in research and documentation
of something in the fur trade time.

Jim's e-mail address is [e-mail]
kramers e-mail address is [e-mail]

jim established the rules and asked john kramer and myself to help judge
I will repost jim's original msg---AND SEND YOU A COPY

NEW END DATE FOR THE CONTEST IS IN SEPTEMBER:

     YMHOSANT

        =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:04:38 -0400 "Thomas H. Harbold"
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Hmmmm...?
>
>Sorry, folks, but I've just signed on and haven't a clue what this is
>about! Anyone care to enlighten me? Please? Thanks!
>
>Being newly interested in this time period (most of my
>reenacting/re-creating has been medieval-era), I'm also fascinated by
>the
>"Desperately seeking a persona" discussion. Thanks to all
>contributors!
>
>Take care,
>
>Tom
>
>
>
>At 12:39 AM -0400 8/14/98, Michael Pierce wrote:
>>7 september is a good date for the contest we may have a winner by
>>default id someone out there other than myself doesnt post
>something---
>>      "Hawk"
>>Michael Pierce
>>854 Glenfield Dr.
>>Palm Harbor, florida   34684
>>1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
>>
>>On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:26:15 -0500 Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
>>writes:
>>>Washtahay-
>>>    sorry about the delay on this.  I finished trashing out my
>>>right arm this
>>>week, doc has me on some wierd meds that make me want to sleep all
>the
>>>time.  So far, no entrants in the contest.  Hawk suggested last week
>>>extending the deadline from a week to a month.  Guess he was
>right-so
>>>lets
>>>punch the date out to 7 September.
>>>LongWalker c. du B.
>
>
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:53:13 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search &  Contest(REPOST OF RULES)

HERE IS A REPOST OF THE RULES:  END DATE NOW EXTENDED TO SEPTEMBER---DUE
TO NUMBER OF SUBMITTALS---
         =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:49:36 -0500 Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Washtahay-
>    OK folks.  We've had a lot of palaver over one small feature
>of one bag
>the last few days.  So lets get down to brass tacks on this.  I want
>to
>locate an original hunting pouch that we can document as having been
>in use
>on the frontier in the years 1825 to 1835, with the target date of
>1830.
>Here are the criteria the bag must meet:
>    "Frontier" is defined as Rocky Mountains, Santa Fe trade,
>Texas, or the
>Missouri River trade.  We should probably include bags in use in the
>St
>Louis area and west within Missouri.  While I would love to hear about
>the
>bags in use in the North during this time, that isn't the target area.
>
>    "Document" is defined as being able to objectively date as
>having been in
>use in the area defined as "Frontier".  By objectively, I mean by
>contemporary records or a chain of evidence.  The assignment of dates,
>for
>example Madison Grant's "ca 1820-1840" does NOT count, unless
>supported by
>other available information (an example being the bag he shows on pp
>74-75
>of KRHP).  If you can come up with a bag that went with the supply
>trains
>to Rendezvous, great!  But the bag used by some famous mountain man in
>the
>late 1850s isn't what we are looking for.
>    The bag must be published or accessible to the public.  The
>folks on the
>list must have some way of accessing the bag, to examine and evaluate
>it
>for their own purposes.  Be prepared to furnish supporting
>documentation.
>
>    Prize?  Immortal fame isn't enough?  How about a rum horn and
>horn cup?
>Copied after the canteen shown on p 142  and the bottom cup on p 144
>of
>"The Powder Horn and its Architecture".
>    Let's run this for a week or so and see what comes out of the
>woodwork.
>Judge's decisions are final.  Hawk, John Kramer-are you guys willing
>to
>help me judge this?
>
>Let the hunt begin!
>LongWalker c. du B.
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #124
*******************************

-
 To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to
"[e-mail]"
 with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.
 For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send
 "help" to the same address.  Do not use quotes in your message.