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hist_text-digest        Friday, August 7 1998        Volume 01 : Number 121




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:16:21 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Watches

Per "The Classic Watch" by Michael Balfour, Pocket Watches were 1st developed
by Abraham-Louis Brequet (1747-1823) c.1770. He designed the tourbillon
escapement and also the "Tact" watch for the blind.  Also in 1770, another
Frenchman, Jean-Antoine Lepine devised a way to manufacture a pocket watch
that was much thinner. He (Lepine) also introduced hand-setting at the back of
the watch, cases with invisible hinges (so-called Hunters Cases) when closed,
and internal wheels with "wolfs' teeth".  In 1790, Jaquet Droz is credited
with developing the 1st wrist-watch. Swiss records show that by the year 1808,
there were over 3000 watchmakers in operation in the cantons of Switzerland.

I am looking for reference materials regarding common usage in this country
and specifically the Fur Trade, and when available, will provide it to the
list.    Hope this helps in the meantime.    PJ

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:32:24 -0700
From: "TERRI A ROSTER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo powder horns

UNSUSCRIBE

- ----------
> From: Sickler, Louis L <[e-mail]>
> To: 'Mtn Man List' <[e-mail]>
> Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo powder horns
> Date: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 1:33 PM
>
> Ho the List
>
> Here's a question I've had on my mind.....
>
> I have read a lot about engraving LIGHT-COLORED powder horns and rubbing
in
> ink to darken the lines. What about black buffalo powder horns ?  Is
white
> ink period, acceptable, or what. I haven't seen any examples or
> descriptions. I'd kind of like to try engraving my horn, but don't want
to
> mess it up with something out of period. Engraved lines by themselves
don't
> show up too well.
>
> Any ideas ???
>
> Red Coyote

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:32:24 -0700
From: "TERRI A ROSTER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo powder horns

UNSUSCRIBE

- ----------
> From: Sickler, Louis L <[e-mail]>
> To: 'Mtn Man List' <[e-mail]>
> Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo powder horns
> Date: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 1:33 PM
>
> Ho the List
>
> Here's a question I've had on my mind.....
>
> I have read a lot about engraving LIGHT-COLORED powder horns and rubbing
in
> ink to darken the lines. What about black buffalo powder horns ?  Is
white
> ink period, acceptable, or what. I haven't seen any examples or
> descriptions. I'd kind of like to try engraving my horn, but don't want
to
> mess it up with something out of period. Engraved lines by themselves
don't
> show up too well.
>
> Any ideas ???
>
> Red Coyote

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 16:53:01 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: games for the youngins

The hand game is a good one plus other game similar to this. I think of the
Indian book which has lots of games in it and post it later
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:28:02 -0700
From: "TERRI A ROSTER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: UNSUSCRIBE

UNSUSCRIBE

- ----------
> From: TERRI A ROSTER <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]; 'Mtn Man List' <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo powder horns
> Date: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 5:32 PM
>
> UNSUSCRIBE
>
> ----------
> > From: Sickler, Louis L <[e-mail]>
> > To: 'Mtn Man List' <[e-mail]>
> > Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo powder horns
> > Date: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 1:33 PM
> >
> > Ho the List
> >
> > Here's a question I've had on my mind.....
> >
> > I have read a lot about engraving LIGHT-COLORED powder horns and
rubbing
> in
> > ink to darken the lines. What about black buffalo powder horns ?  Is
> white
> > ink period, acceptable, or what. I haven't seen any examples or
> > descriptions. I'd kind of like to try engraving my horn, but don't want
> to
> > mess it up with something out of period. Engraved lines by themselves
> don't
> > show up too well.
> >
> > Any ideas ???
> >
> > Red Coyote
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:08:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Northwest Company

Hallo From Idaho Henry!

On Wed, 5 Aug 1998, Henry B. Crawford wrote:
> >and a unexpected gem in the form of a 1934 Master's Thesis by a Jean
> >Nielsen, titled "The Operations of British Fur Trading Companies In
> >Idaho"... very cool stuff.

> Say, what university was that thesis written at? (please excuse the
> preposition at the end of the sentence)

University of Idaho, Moscow Idaho

> BTW, Lee,  Nice website.  It's been a while since I saw it, and It looks
> different somehow.  Have you made changes?  You have a nice family, too.

Thanks for the compliment on the family!  On the website...
it depends on how long since ye've dropped by Henry <G>  I've been slowly
adding to it this summer when I've had time so there's always something
new.  Working on info for our area posts at the moment.. Kullyspel,
Spokane, Salish houses etc. and trying to complete the section on Idaho's
Indians circa 1800.

Regards

Lee Newbill
Viola, Idaho
email at [e-mail]
Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 20:30:04 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo powder horns

engraving on black surfaces is not a uncommon thing--engraveing on a
buffilo horn is a bit different than engraveing on a white horn--have a
friend that is a master scrimshaw person---he will scratch on almost
anything he can get his hands on and have seen some of his black buffilo
horns that he has done and they are outstanding---he does not have a
e-mail address but can be contacted at the following

Kurtz Miller
The Curio Gallery
82 Spring Street
Eureka Springs Arkansas   72632
1-501-253-2094

suggest you give him a call and discuss what you want to do--tell him i
told you to call and depending upon his mood and how busy he is he will
discuss it for hrs or just give you a brief methodology of what you need
to do to make it look good---I feel sure he will help you out tell him
you are on the American Mountan Man chat session and that is where you
got his name and address and phone number---He is Big into that kind of
stuff ----even though he is not a member---
    YMHOSANT
        =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Wed, 05 Aug 1998 14:33:41 -0600 "Sickler, Louis L"
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Ho the List
>
>Here's a question I've had on my mind.....
>
>I have read a lot about engraving LIGHT-COLORED powder horns and
>rubbing in
>ink to darken the lines. What about black buffalo powder horns ?  Is
>white
>ink period, acceptable, or what. I haven't seen any examples or
>descriptions. I'd kind of like to try engraving my horn, but don't
>want to
>mess it up with something out of period. Engraved lines by themselves
>don't
>show up too well.
>
>Any ideas ???
>
>Red Coyote
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 19:36:01 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: UNSUSCRIBE

Terri Roster,

To unsubscribe from this list go to:
<<http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html>http://www.xmission.co
m/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html>
and follow the directions.

John...



At 06:28 PM 8/5/98 -0700, you wrote:
>UNSUSCRIBE
>
>----------
>> From: TERRI A ROSTER <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail]; 'Mtn Man List' <[e-mail]>
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo powder horns
>> Date: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 5:32 PM
>>=20
>> UNSUSCRIBE
>>=20
>> ----------
>> > From: Sickler, Louis L <[e-mail]>
>> > To: 'Mtn Man List' <[e-mail]>
>> > Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo powder horns
>> > Date: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 1:33 PM
>> >=20
>> > Ho the List
>> >=20
>> > Here's a question I've had on my mind.....
>> >=20
>> > I have read a lot about engraving LIGHT-COLORED powder horns and
>rubbing
>> in
>> > ink to darken the lines. What about black buffalo powder horns ?=A0 Is
>> white
>> > ink period, acceptable, or what. I haven't seen any examples or
>> > descriptions. I'd kind of like to try engraving my horn, but don't want
>> to
>> > mess it up with something out of period. Engraved lines by themselves
>> don't
>> > show up too well.
>> >=20
>> > Any ideas ???
>> >=20
>> > Red Coyote
>>=20
>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 20:26:33 -0500 (CDT)
From: "S. Gilbert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Watches, sextants and books

Hello the camp,

    This group is so great.  Thank you Angela for the suggestions and
web address.  An accurate timepiece is not a problem, oddly enough.  My
husband has an astrolabe that is a working copy of the one built by
Geoffery Chaucer (of "The Canterbury Tales" fame).  It is an amazing
device.  You take an altitude reading of the sun with one ring, move the
rings to align the day in the zodiac to that value on the face and read
the time on the outer ring.  Brian has an accuracy of within 3 minutes
using this thing.  This is my own very limited understanding of how it
works, so please don't quote me.
    I think this may be the way to include him, as he seems really
intrigued by this notion.  I will see about finding a sextant for his use.
    He also liked the idea of video taping some of the events.  He
suggested hiding a video camera in the case of a period box camera.  He
could then carry it around and set up the tripod and "photograph" the
procedings.  We will need to research the earliest use of cameras in the
field, as his character will need to fit that time frame, if he decides to
go that route.
    Also, a big thank you to whomever suggested "MANY TENDER TIES" as
a resource.  I ordered a copy and it arrived 5 days ago.  I read it in
several long sessions.  It is a terrific book and very valuable to me.  It
filled in several gaps in my quest for knowledge.

your humble servant,
Old Hands
Susan Gilbert




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:49:56 -0700
From: [e-mail] (john c funk,jr)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: games for the youngins

For games contact [e-mail].  She has a number of historic games
she has researched and organized for kids.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:53:09 -0700
From: [e-mail] (john c funk,jr)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glass Mountain

There is also (probably one of many) a Glass Mountain in Modoc Co., Ca.,
south of Alturas: west of Likely and east of Medicine Lake.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: 05 Aug 98 20:09:29 +0000
From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE:  Mtn Man-List:  Smoking Buffalo Sh*t

I may not smoke buffler dung, but my wife and I have eaten and cooked a
lot of meals using  cow dung as fuel and it made no difference in taste.
It makes wonderful coals and my wife would rather cook over dung than
some wood she has had to use.
DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS --- PROPRIETORS OF THE NADA TRADING COMPANY
LIving History Consultants----  We are not a trading company!!

jbrandl wrote:
>Actually a small amt was placed in some pipes before smoking. Sometimes
>before a buffalo hunt
>Joe
>
>Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
>Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
>Write for custom tanning prices
>We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
>hair on robes
>Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings,
baskets
>check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka
>
>
>
>
>
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>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 21:07:03 -0700
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Watches, sextants and books

Old Hands:

There were quit a few folks at the Rocky Mt. Nationals In Elk Park UT. this
summer using hand held camcorders. Not to say that all rendezvous will permit
that but the idea that it can't be done at all is not correct either. One
other idea you might consider would be to camouflage the video camera in one
of those fancy leather bags/boxes that were popular in the 18th and 19th
century, called I think cartushes or some such. Angela would know what they
were called. They were used like an overnight bag or gear bag.

The use of cameras in the field did not come about until the Civil War/War of
Northern Aggression. Cameras would be too modern for the fur trade or earlier.
Box cameras are permitted at western rendezvous but under very strict rules.
Personal cameras either video or still cameras must be hidden until the
picture is about to be made.

I am interested in getting started in some fancier navigation skills other
than simple piloting so I will be listening to this thread very closely. I am
taking notes! I remain...

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

S. Gilbert wrote:

> Hello the camp,
>
>         This group is so great.  Thank you Angela for the suggestions and
> web address.  An accurate timepiece is not a problem, oddly enough.  My
> husband has an astrolabe that is a working copy of the one built by
> Geoffery Chaucer (of "The Canterbury Tales" fame).  It is an amazing
> device.  You take an altitude reading of the sun with one ring, move the
> rings to align the day in the zodiac to that value on the face and read
> the time on the outer ring.  Brian has an accuracy of within 3 minutes
> using this thing.  This is my own very limited understanding of how it
> works, so please don't quote me.
>         I think this may be the way to include him, as he seems really
> intrigued by this notion.  I will see about finding a sextant for his use.
>         He also liked the idea of video taping some of the events.  He
> suggested hiding a video camera in the case of a period box camera.  He
> could then carry it around and set up the tripod and "photograph" the
> procedings.  We will need to research the earliest use of cameras in the
> field, as his character will need to fit that time frame, if he decides to
> go that route.
>         Also, a big thank you to whomever suggested "MANY TENDER TIES" as
> a resource.  I ordered a copy and it arrived 5 days ago.  I read it in
> several long sessions.  It is a terrific book and very valuable to me.  It
> filled in several gaps in my quest for knowledge.
>
> your humble servant,
> Old Hands
> Susan Gilbert
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:00:28 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Northwest Company

Lee, I don't know how much help I can be here; I concentrate on reading
journals & such, but it sounds like you're looking for a book written by a
good fur trade historian. Jim Hardee's suggestions are good ones. Some
additonal comments on one of them, then my own suggestions:

>"Masson, L.R. "Les Bourgeois de la Compagnie u Nord-Ouest." 2 Vol.
>Antiquarian Press Ltd. NY 1960.  (Although som of it is in French, there's
> enough English to make it worth looking inot.  Contains a lot of letters,
> journals, etc.people like Alexander Henry, Joseph Frobisher, David
> Thompson and the like.)
Only two parts are in French--Masson's lengthy "History of the North West
Company" (about 100 pages), and the journal of Francois-Victor Malhiot. If
you have taken a couple of years of French, it's worth the effort to tackle
Malhiot's journal with a French-English dictionary at your elbow; the tenses
and sentence construction is really quite simple & straightforward. Malhiot
had an excellent perspective on the fur trade, and was a keen observer.
Masson was originally published in the 1890's, and so the editing is not up
to modern standards. Many of the journals and letters have been re-edited
and published elsewhere. For more details, e-mail me privately. This book is
fairly rare (both print runs were fairly small), and if you find it, the
library may not let it circulate. BUT it is really good, if you can find it!

My suggestions:
Mackenzie, Alexander. _The Journals and Letters of Sir Alexander Mackenzie_.
W. Kaye Lamb (ed.) Cambridge University Press : London, 1970. SBN 521-01034-9.
- --Should be fairly readily available. Mackenzie was a NWC wintering partner.
If you're short on time, just read Mackenzie's  "General History of the Fur
Trade" in this book, and save the actual journals and letters for dessert
later. First published about 1802.

Ross, Eric. _Beyond the River and the Bay : Some Observations on the state
of the Canadian Northwest in 1811..._ University of Toronto Press : Toronto,
1970. ISBN 0-8020-6188-5.
- --I understand this has been recently reprinted. It's packed full of
information on the fur trade and Western Canada as it was in 1811, written
by a man who loves the subject, and it's a very easy read. It is vitally
important to read the preface to this book first, or you will be very
confused by it! (I'm too tired right now to explain the issue clearly...)

Parker, James. _Emporium of the North : Fort Chipewyan and the Fur Trade to
1835_. Alberta Culture and Multiculturalism, Canadian Plains Research Center
: 1987. ISBN 0-88977-0441.
- --The North West Company is revealed through an all-around "case study" of
its vitally-important Athabasca headquarters, starting with when Peter Pond
first opened the area to trade in 1788. Lots of economic details, as well as
a good introduction to the fur trade in general, and the NWC in particular.

As for journals, if you could read only one, I highly recommend :
Harmon, Daniel Williams. _Sixteen Years in the Indian Country : The Journal
of Daniel Williams Harmon, 1800-1816_. W. Kaye Lamb (ed.) Macmillan :
Toronto, 1957.
- --Harmon worked across the whole of the NWC's territory, from Winnipeg to
Fort St. James, B.C., and his journal of sixteen years covers a wealth of
information not contained in the journals of most other NWC fur traders.
Should be fairly readily available.

Finally, IF you can find it (again, only a relatively small number were
printed), I highly recommend:

Henry, Alexander (the Younger). _The Journal of Alexander Henry the Younger
1799-1814._ Barry Gough, ed. The Champlain Society/University of Toronto
Press : Toronto, 1988. ISBN 0-9693425-0-0.
- --I actually haven't read this edition completely, but it seems to be an
improvement on Elliott Coues' excellent edition. Henry, like Harmon, was in the
NWC for a long time, and wrote very candidly and in great detail about his
experiences. An great book, in two volumes, and well worth the time & effort
to read.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred


[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 21:45:04 -0700
From: Gail C Martini-Peterson <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #120

Concerning the smoking of buffalo dung: I cannot imagine it. What would
be the point? Smoking transfers chemicals to the smoker through the
smoke. I doubt this was done by anyone. This is just my opinion, not
based on any historical fact.

Ask your friend why anyone would smoke dung. He probably never looked at
it that way.

Gail Martini-Peterson
[e-mail]

Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit
there.
        Will Rogers

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 01:14:06 -0400
From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Preserving a Snake Skin

How did the Camp out go...give me all the dirty gossip and the clean.....  Will
you be at Cody.????

Linda Holley

Joe Brandl wrote:

> Phil,
> One of the best means of tanning a snake skin is by using glyerin, a hand
> softner. I usually get the kind with rose water in it as it makes the skin
> smell better. Use a pair of small scissors and cut the snake up the belly,
> be careful around the anus and on down the tail. pull the skin slowly off
> from the head to the tail. Once the skin is off, scrape any fat and
> conective tissure from flesh side. I like to use a paper stapler to staple
> the skin flesh side up to a pine board. Allow the skin to dry first than
> pour some glyerin on the skin and rub in. put on about 2 or 3 coats. allow
> each coat to dry, Use a razor to cut the skin from the staples. or you can
> pull all those things.
> Joe
>
> Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
> Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
> Write for custom tanning prices
> We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
> hair on robes
> Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
> check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 03:59:04 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: games for the youngins

the name "j' was trying to get you to is SHINEANGEL, with an EL at the end,
not SHINEANGLE.  she has run the kids games at many a rendezvous, and does a
terrific job.  PJ

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 08:03:47 -0500
From: "Larry R. Weisz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: [Fwd: Thinking of you]

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- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 5:06 PM
Subject: hi


>An Angel to Watch Over You
>
>           Oooo
> Some people    (    )
>   come into our lives )  /
>     and quickly go. . (_/
>
> oooO Some people
>        (    )   become friends
>   \  (    and stay a while. . .
>    \_)
>
> leaving beautiful    Oooo
> footprints on our   (    )
>       hearts . . .      )  /
>               (_/
>
> oooO and we are
>        (    )     never
>         \  (    quite the same
>    \_)    because we have
>      made a good friend!
>
>
> Yesterday is history.
> Tomorrow a mystery.
> Today is a gift.
> That's why it's called the present!
>
>
>
> (\      /) TAKE THIS LITTLE ANGEL
> ( \  ___ / ) AND KEEP HER CLOSE TO YOU
> (  \  ( )  /  ) SHE IS YOUR GUARDIAN ANGEL
> (   /< >\   ) SENT TO WATCH OVER YOU!
>   (/  \/    \)
>     /     \
>    /       \
>       ( _______ )
>
>This is a special guardian angel . . . Pass this on to 5 people within
>the hour of receiving her . . . and make a wish.  If you have passed her
>on, your wish will be granted and she will watch over you forever.


- --------------20B150ACAFC080D3CCCA90FE--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 07:59:16 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Joe Brandl)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #120

the old Indian people did alot of things we don't always understand.
Warrior societies were noted for doing strange things. I will go back and
document some of the notes from Ewers, Hassrick, Bowers and others.
Remember that many of the old people thought power came to them through
objects and animals by association. What we find strange and even gross,
was not to them. That is just the way it way. I post information as I find
it again in my notes.
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom tanning prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 09:46:56 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Watches, sextants and books

>Cameras would be too modern for the fur trade or earlier.

Point of clarification.  Photography (invented in 1839) would indeed be too
modern for the *Rendezvous era* of the fur trade, but they could be
permitted in the 1850s phase of the fur trade, having been well improved by
that time.  Bear in mind that only the Rendezvous ended in 1840, not the
fur trade proper.  Consider that the fur business was still going on at
Fort Union, and other fur trading posts well into the '50s.

I realize that semantics can be nitpicky, but we must keep in mind that
there was still a fur trade after 1840.  The rendezvous was replaced in
1840 by the revitalized trading post system, but the fur trade was not dead
by a long shot.  For the proprietors of Bent's Fort, built strictly for the
purpose of trading furs and buffalo robes, the year 1840 came and went
without much notice and little if any effect on the business there.  In
fact, one of their hottest years, economically was 1841, the year following
the end of the rendezvous.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:53:56 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Watches

A brief response to the questions regarding watches. Yes, chronometers were
available by 1804; Lewis & Clark's were made by Arnoldi in London, and cost,
if I recall correctly, about 25 pounds. The difference between chronometers
& watches was, and is, their accuracy, rather than the presence of a second
hand. David Thompson & Peter Fidler did not use chronometers; they used the
cheaper "common watches" made by a London watchmaker called Joseph Jolly. In
July 1794, David Thompson received a 'second & Stop Watch with 2 Case
Val[ue] 12 pounds 12 shillings'; note that although this watch apparently
had a second hand, it was _not_ a chronometer. He had two of these when he
descended the Columbia River in 1811, and apparently never did buy a
chronometer. Watches were fairly common among the bourgeois of the North
West Company and officers of the HBC; watches being ordered from London &
sent back to London for repairs come up fairly frequently in HBC records for
the 1790-1810 period. I've got documentation for all this, but no time to
pull it out & post it today--maybe in a week or two. In January, I posted a
message from my husband about watches & chronometers, it should be in Dean's
archives.

In haste,
Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 13:59:57 -0700
From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Thanks!

Angela Gottfred,

I'm sure I speak for just about everybody on this list when I extend a
particular thanks for your wonderful efforts to keep us informed and honest.  I
particularly appreciate your tremendous enthusiasm for our shared fields of
interest and the informed scholar's view you bring us.  If the members of this
list were indebted according to the quantity and value of the information
provided here, we would all owe you (and several others too) big time.

I have no intention of singling out only one contributor to diminish the thanks
to any other.  I want to particularly invite my fellow lurkers and small
contributors to give voice to some of their favorites.  I can immediately think
of several folks here, not always academic by any means, who have given me their
special insights into history, gunsmithing and shooting, blacksmithing, woods
lore, cooking (historical and contemporary), native american culture, costuming,
tanning, beads, etc., etc., etc., in short all the topics that curiosity
discovers in our chosen field of interest.

So, thanks Angela, and I hope that this message spurs a prairie fire of others
to share their gratitude for you and the other special contributors that make
this list and this hobby so enlightening and rewarding.

Gary Bell, aka Heron

Angela Gottfred wrote:

> A brief response to the questions regarding watches. Yes, chronometers were
> available by 1804; Lewis & Clark's were made by Arnoldi in London, and cost,
> if I recall correctly, about 25 pounds. The difference between chronometers
> & watches was, and is, their accuracy, rather than the presence of a second
> hand. David Thompson & Peter Fidler did not use chronometers; they used the
> cheaper "common watches" made by a London watchmaker called Joseph Jolly. In
> July 1794, David Thompson received a 'second & Stop Watch with 2 Case
> Val[ue] 12 pounds 12 shillings'; note that although this watch apparently
> had a second hand, it was _not_ a chronometer. He had two of these when he
> descended the Columbia River in 1811, and apparently never did buy a
> chronometer. Watches were fairly common among the bourgeois of the North
> West Company and officers of the HBC; watches being ordered from London &
> sent back to London for repairs come up fairly frequently in HBC records for
> the 1790-1810 period. I've got documentation for all this, but no time to
> pull it out & post it today--maybe in a week or two. In January, I posted a
> message from my husband about watches & chronometers, it should be in Dean's
> archives.
>
> In haste,
> Your humble & obedient servant,
> Angela Gottfred
> [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 09:21:37 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: MtMan-List: Colter's "run" (aka My reason for being on this list)

 John Colter's "run" after being captured by Indians is
>another good story.

Colter's story may not have happened as he told it.  The version we all
know was his story as told to Thomas James.  James then retold and
published the tale.  Given the circumstances, it may be only half truth.

The Blackfeet have their own version,  that Colter was let go as a living
no trespassing sign, in hopes that it would keep other trappers out of
their territory.  Blackfeet oral tradition says that they could have easily
killed him and been done with him, but they wanted to send a warning to
others who might have had designs on Blackfeet trapping grounds.  They
stripped Colter and sent him on his way to carry the "message," figuring
that by the time he reached the settlements he would be a (barely) living
warning sign.  Colter had plenty of time to concoct a face-saving story
that would make him seem more heroic, especially since he had to be the one
to explain why his partner was dead.  Logic dictates that the Blackfeet
version would be the more believable of the two, given that one naked man
running from several Blackfeet warriors sworn to kill him is not likely to
survive to tell the story, unless he was allowed to escape.

I'd be inclined to believe the Blackfoot version, and that the story we are
all familiar with is a product of Colter's own imagination.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #121
*******************************

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