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hist_text-digest        Monday, August 3 1998        Volume 01 : Number 119




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:48:03 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rob: Allan's 1804, report

In a message dated 98-08-03 10:31:41 EDT, you write:

<< I know that in 1803 the Lycium Theatre in London had gas lighting and in
1816
 the Chestnut Street Theatre in Philedelphia was the first theatre in America
 to have gas lighting.  So the towns had gas generation/distribution at that
 time. >>

Aurora, Illinois was the first city in North America to have gas lightting.
It is known today as the "City of Lights."  I don't know when it was founded,
but most cities in Illinois date from the 1830's on.  A web search might
uncover this information for you.  I think the Chicago Tribune's site has mini
histories of most Chicagoland communities.

OldFox

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:44:14 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rob: Allan's 1804, report

a lot of the gas lighting was carbide and water lamps with
reflectors---dont know the exact date for the carbide lamps but have one
dated 1830--simple lamps were made of a can with a hole in the top to
emit the gas----water and carbide rocks were added and the gass lit to
make the lamp----some did and some didn't even have strikers---
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:23:04 EDT <[e-mail]> writes:
>In a message dated 98-08-01 01:23:20 EDT, you write:
>
><<
> Does anyone have information on which cities had gas lighting in
>1804?  Was
>it
> only in London; or did NY, Montreal, or Boston, (or - ?),  also have
>the
> technology?
>  >>
>
>I know that in 1803 the Lycium Theatre in London had gas lighting and
>in 1816
>the Chestnut Street Theatre in Philedelphia was the first theatre in
>America
>to have gas lighting.  So the towns had gas generation/distribution at
>that
>time.
>
>Your Humble Servant
>
>C.T. Oakes
>
>

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:14:20 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: grimsley pouches

would like to see a picture or a sketch of the pouch you are speaking
of----

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Mon, 03 Aug 1998 09:47:43 +0100 Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Someone asked if I'd ever seen a Grimsley pouch of
>type that AFC could have bought.
>Don't I wish!  If one exists it just might be
>marked somewhere with his stamp, as his
>saddles and other tack were marked, sometimes
>multiple times.
>The famous Denig pouch in the Kurz sketch might be
>something like a Grimsley pouch.
>Allen Chronister.
>
>

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:04:49 -0700
From: Longtrail <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rit color remover tames chrome tan

>Logtrail:
>
>I did some searching for old friends of Ken Yellow Feather earlier this summer
>and if I'm not mistaken (my memory is not the only part of me that is getting
>shorter with age) I found out that yellow Pig was in a nursing home and
>not doing
>well at all. I think he had suffered several very debilitating strokes. Now I
>only say this cause if its as I remember, you would want to know for sure.
>So you
>may want to investigate some yourself. Sorry to suggest bad news.
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>Longtrail wrote:
>
>> Right Yeller Pig?????????????  Where ever you are.
>>
>>                         Longtrail

Thank you for the information.  I am wondering if we are speaking of the
same person.  Since I do not know Yeller Pig's real name, I can only ask if
the Yeller Pig your speaking of played the concertina?
Reguardless of which man it is, it is unfortunate to hear of his illness.
Also, I had met Yeller Pig in Oregon, did the Yellow Pig you speak of spend
time there?
      Longtrail

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 11:21:55 -0700
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rit color remover tames chrome tan

Longtrail:

Don't know about the concertina though I think he ran with 'Fiddlin Red' and Red
played the Fiddle. He was from somewhere up here in the Pacific NW so it may be the
same man. I probably met him too years ago but can't put a face to the name and
knew very little about him as it were. Sorry again for being so fruggal with info
and for being the bearer of bad news.

I remain....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Longtrail wrote:

> >Logtrail:
> >
> >I did some searching for old friends of Ken Yellow Feather earlier this summer
> >and if I'm not mistaken (my memory is not the only part of me that is getting
> >shorter with age) I found out that yellow Pig was in a nursing home and
> >not doing
> >well at all. I think he had suffered several very debilitating strokes. Now I
> >only say this cause if its as I remember, you would want to know for sure.
> >So you
> >may want to investigate some yourself. Sorry to suggest bad news.
> >
> >YMOS
> >Capt. Lahti'
> >
> >Longtrail wrote:
> >
> >> Right Yeller Pig?????????????  Where ever you are.
> >>
> >>                         Longtrail
>
> Thank you for the information.  I am wondering if we are speaking of the
> same person.  Since I do not know Yeller Pig's real name, I can only ask if
> the Yeller Pig your speaking of played the concertina?
> Reguardless of which man it is, it is unfortunate to hear of his illness.
> Also, I had met Yeller Pig in Oregon, did the Yellow Pig you speak of spend
> time there?
>       Longtrail

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:24:18 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Gas lights....recission

Sorry, folks
I made a hasty choice in posting that Aurora was the first city with gas
lighting.  I did a search and found them to be the first to have ELECTRIC
lights.

OldFox

"There have been many and varied mayors throughout the city's history. B.F.
Hall was Aurora's first mayor in 1857. During the 1870's and 1880's, Aurora
frequently stirred up the political scene by electing a new mayor every year.
Travis Phillips was mayor in 1881 when Aurora became the first city to have
electric street lighting. This is how the city got its nickname, the "city of
lights." Holmes Miller was mayor in 1886. His contribution to the city was the
installation of an electric fire and police alarm system."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:26:44 -0700
From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Rob: Allan's 1804, report

Keep in mind that theaters may well have generated their own gas for
lighting, well before public distribution. I read somewhere that the
first death by electrocution was a stage hand who leaned against the
terminals of a 200V dynamo being used for early arc lights in a theater
(well after our period of course, but shows that theaters were willing
to invest in "cutting edge" technology when it came to stage craft).
Pat Quilter

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Monday, August 03, 1998 7:23 AM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rob: Allan's 1804, report


In a message dated 98-08-01 01:23:20 EDT, you write:

<<
 Does anyone have information on which cities had gas lighting in 1804?
Was
it
 only in London; or did NY, Montreal, or Boston, (or - ?),  also have
the
 technology?
  >>

I know that in 1803 the Lycium Theatre in London had gas lighting and in
1816
the Chestnut Street Theatre in Philedelphia was the first theatre in
America
to have gas lighting.  So the towns had gas generation/distribution at
that
time.

Your Humble Servant

C.T. Oakes

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 12:43:08 +0000
From: Forrest Smouse <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: My reason for being on this list

John Kramer wrote:

> Primary reason the Mormons burned his fort down was so they could control the
> western emigrant trade, folks stopped and bought supplies from him because the
> stories were better and his knowledge and information invaluable.  He must
> have
> done something right.  Brigham wanted his business.
>

I agree with what you said about Jim except for the above statement.  The Mormons
had already bought the post Jim and had built on to it, before the post was burn.
The reason the post was burn, was for fear of the U.S. Army (Johnson Army) on
route to Utah, as messages told to wipe out the Mormons.

Forrest #1691

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 13:13:39 -0600
From: "L. A. Romsa" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Gas lights....recission -Reply

Hmmm, I have always been understanding that the first electric street =
lights were in Cheyenne Wyoming! I guess I'll have to research some.

>>> <[e-mail]> 08/03/98 12:24pm >>>
Sorry, folks
I made a hasty choice in posting that Aurora was the first city with gas
lighting.  I did a search and found them to be the first to have ELECTRIC
lights.

OldFox

"There have been many and varied mayors throughout the city's history. =
B.F.
Hall was Aurora's first mayor in 1857. During the 1870's and 1880's, =
Aurora
frequently stirred up the political scene by electing a new mayor every =
year.
Travis Phillips was mayor in 1881 when Aurora became the first city to =
have
electric street lighting. This is how the city got its nickname, the "city =
of
lights." Holmes Miller was mayor in 1886. His contribution to the city was =
the
installation of an electric fire and police alarm system."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:27:21 -0500
From: "Ken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rit color remover tames chrome tan

Longtrail,
Roger is right, Yellow Pig is very ill and in a nursing home. Fiddlin Red
used to hang with Crooked Neck and I ain't heard where they are now. If
anyone has Yellers address I would appreciate it AGAIN. Somehow in the mess
that followed the garage fiasco some of my papers were trashed as well and
I don't have it anymore. Oldtimers is catching up with me too!
YMDS,
YellowFeather

- ----------
> From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rit color remover tames chrome tan
> Date: Monday, August 03, 1998 1:04 AM
>
> Logtrail:
>
> I did some searching for old friends of Ken Yellow Feather earlier this
summer
> and if I'm not mistaken (my memory is not the only part of me that is
getting
> shorter with age) I found out that yellow Pig was in a nursing home and
not doing
> well at all. I think he had suffered several very debilitating strokes.
Now I
> only say this cause if its as I remember, you would want to know for
sure. So you
> may want to investigate some yourself. Sorry to suggest bad news.
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
> Longtrail wrote:
>
> > Right Yeller Pig?????????????  Where ever you are.
> >
> >                         Longtrail
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:33:01 -0500
From: "Ken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rit color remover tames chrome tan

Yeah he did. His real name is Jerry Williams. He used to be a phamacist in
Oregon. I think we are talking about the same Yeller. He also had a Harpers
Ferry that was stolen by some slimeball. It had NW coast carvings on it. If
anyone has knowledge of that rifle please let me know so I can scalp the
worthless thief!
YellowFeather

- ----------
> From: Longtrail <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rit color remover tames chrome tan
> Date: Monday, August 03, 1998 1:04 PM
>
> >Logtrail:
> >
> >I did some searching for old friends of Ken Yellow Feather earlier this
summer
> >and if I'm not mistaken (my memory is not the only part of me that is
getting
> >shorter with age) I found out that yellow Pig was in a nursing home and
> >not doing
> >well at all. I think he had suffered several very debilitating strokes.
Now I
> >only say this cause if its as I remember, you would want to know for
sure.
> >So you
> >may want to investigate some yourself. Sorry to suggest bad news.
> >
> >YMOS
> >Capt. Lahti'
> >
> >Longtrail wrote:
> >
> >> Right Yeller Pig?????????????  Where ever you are.
> >>
> >>                         Longtrail
>
> Thank you for the information.  I am wondering if we are speaking of the
> same person.  Since I do not know Yeller Pig's real name, I can only ask
if
> the Yeller Pig your speaking of played the concertina?
> Reguardless of which man it is, it is unfortunate to hear of his illness.
> Also, I had met Yeller Pig in Oregon, did the Yellow Pig you speak of
spend
> time there?
>       Longtrail
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:39:31 -0500
From: "Ken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events

Paul,
As long as the four letter word wasn't WORK you are forgiven! Waugh, that's
the one that bothers me most.
Your most disobt. servant,
YellowFeather

- ----------
> From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events
> Date: Monday, August 03, 1998 2:50 AM
>
> No apologies needed to this person.  Just got out of the hospital and
needed the
> good laugh.
>
> Linda Holley
>
> [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > Dear List:  Responding to a friends post, and not paying the least
attention
> > to the point of origin, I used a forbidden four letter word.  I just
> > realized my unforgiveable error, and I sincerely apologize to any and
all
> > who are offended by the use of the word, and/or my inattention to
protocol.
> >
> > Paul
> > Paul W. Jones
> > [e-mail]
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 14:43:28 -0500
From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: grimsley pouches

Washtahay-
At 12:14 PM 8/3/98 -0400, you wrote:
>would like to see a picture or a sketch of the pouch you are speaking
>of----
>
hawk-if you've got a copy of Hansons "The Hawken Rifle:Its Place in
History"  look at page 34.
LongWalker c. du B.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 13:58:22 +0100
From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: shooting pouch

Someone asked about where to find the sketch of
Denig's shooting pouch.
Go to AMM web site.  On the menu go to "Gallery"
In Gallery go to "Sketchbok of Rudolf Fredrich
Kurz"
In the Kurz book go to plate 19.  And there it is.
Allen Chronister

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 17:13:25 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: MtMan-List: Free trappers vs company men

Has anyone out there ever come across or done research on the proportion of
free trappers vs company men during the Rendezvous period of the fur trade?
A question was posed to me regarding which were the more numerous.  I
couldn't say, except that for there to have been more free trappers, there
would have to be thousands of them, given the size of those company
brigades.  Anyone out there have a clue.

TIA,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 16:26:22 -0700
From: [e-mail] (john c funk,jr)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Free trappers vs company men

HBC

Thanks for the question.  This is an issue that has plagued me for some
time.  I too would like and educated guess form the camp.

John Funk

_____________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:22:28 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Meat and Shooting Events

In a message dated 98-08-03 10:59:28 EDT, you write:

<< In a message dated 98-08-01 21:06:52 EDT, you write:

 <<
  Can you give me some suggestions for shooting events that are not, I repeat
  not, related to paper targets?  The more historically correct, or unusal the
  better.

  Thanks again.  I love this list.
   >>
i have read accounts by French officers on Colonial boys at shooting events
They would hold a square board between their knees while their  bretheren
would shoot it

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:23:41 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Glass Mountain

Hi there

I was just re-reading Jim Bridger's tall tale about shooting at an elk and
discovering it was behind a mountain of glass. Now usually these tales are
based on some natural feature, such as the putrefied forest. Does anyone know
of a place called Glass Mountain? Maybe a big area of transparent ice or
something that would give rise to this tall tale.

Tom Laidlaw

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 20:53:30 -0700
From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glass Mountain

Hey Tom:
    There is a glass mountain near milepost 77 on Highway 20 east of Bend,
Oregon about 30 mile prior to getting to Burns, Oregon. This tall butte is
composed mostly of obsidian. It shines pretty good!
    Kinda doubt that's what old Gabe was talking about tho.

Gail Carbiener
========================


>Does anyone know
>of a place called Glass Mountain? Maybe a big area of transparent ice or
>something that would give rise to this tall tale.
>
>Tom Laidlaw

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 00:08:34 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glass Mountain

In a message dated 8/3/98 9:05:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<<   There is a glass mountain near milepost 77 on Highway 20 east of Bend,
 Oregon about 30 mile prior to getting to Burns, Oregon. This tall butte is
 composed mostly of obsidian. It shines pretty good!
     Kinda doubt that's what old Gabe was talking about tho.

 Gail Carbiener >>
Hi, Gail

I'm also reading about Glass Mountain in California. That, too is obsidian.
Maybe Casapy just heard the name somewhere and made up his story. I've done
the same with less. See you at the convention.

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 21:26:55 -0700
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glass Mountain

Tom:

Might have been the outcrop of obsidion in Yellowstone Park. I can't say
exactly where it is but remember driving by it years ago. There apparently are
quit a few of these Obsidion formations in the west and no telling which one
Old Gabe was talking about but I'll betcha he was talking about one of them!

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

[e-mail] wrote:

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 22:43:11 -0700
From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warped barrel.....oh brother

its not just salt you have to add the soap and sufactiant. it works i dont know
how but it works one of the reasons that i held back to putting this resape on the
list is some one maby you does not have the total resape ingrediants and shot from
the hipp. you are tring to invent the wheel again.  do it like i said or your
going to ruin some valuable stuff. metalergy is not one of my suits i got this
brew from clay spenser a blacksmith that invented this stuff. 10lbs salt 32 oz of
dawn dish soap 32 oz of shackley basic I no other. lots of luck sounds like you
need it. ive ben pounding on iron more than 45yrs and still dont know it all never
will.  iron tongue
brew is for mild steel.     mild steel   mild steel   mild steel








[e-mail] wrote:

> In a message dated 98-07-31 10:23:01 EDT, you write:
>
> << sounds like you got a bunch of engineering background you gave out a
>  bunch of good info  all which seemed to be correct-
>
> Thanks, but it's years of heating & hammering iron as a paying hobby and
> working as a heavy equipment mechanic / welder / machinist to support my black
> powder habits --- and, of course, a lot of research related to both hobby &
> job.  The study of metalurgy, to me, is facinating!  Like -- what happens if
> you add .15% to .3% lead by volume to 4140 chrome moly steel???  It makes it
> machine better -- AND, even though lead isn't supposed to effect hardning, it
> WILL improve the hardning of this particular alloy.  Now comes the fun part --
> WHY????  Danged if I know, but it does!  This particular quirk defies all the
> rules.  Just a bit of trivia that's not realy related to our prefered time
> frame, but intresting any way -- and it also illustrates that we don't always
> get what we expect.
>
> < --got one problem with what you said---I am  going to use the common sense
> approach---the salt in the water will--yes make it hard---and brittle
> too--stands a good
>  chance in breaking his steel from being brittle after a few bangs with
>  the flint
>
> That was a recomendation by Jim Hrisoulas who's heated & hammered much more
> iron than I have.  It's also mentioned in M.T. Richardson's books.  The brine
> solution should only be used for water hardning steels such as the 1000 series
> & "W" series steels.  If you try it with, say "O-1", which is an oil hardning
> steel, your comments are entirely correct -- brine WILL give you SERIOUS
> problems!
>
> < with all this heating and cooling and quenching you are going
>  to pull most of the carbon out of the steel
>
> This can be minimumized by using the neutral or carburizing area of the flame
> / fire.  In the forge, the neutral area is in the middle of the fire &
> carburizing area is the upper portion of the fire.  Down at the bottom of the
> fire close to the tuyere where the air blast enters the fire is an ozidixing
> area of the fire & WILL DEFINITELY decarbonize the steel.  I've had some luck
> ADDING carbon back into steel by heating in the carburizing portion of the
> flame, but it's a tricky process of maintaining just the right heat over an
> extended period of time to allow absorbtion of carbon by the steel.  Basicaly,
> the same theory applies to crucible steel, but there you have an abundance of
> carbon from the charred bone & leather used inside the crucible with the steel
> coupled with the absence of oxygen.  If I'm using a oxyaccetelyne torch to
> heat with, I leave a bit of a white feather on the tip of the central light
> blue cone of the flame to create a carburizing flame.  Modern auto body sheet
> metal torch welds best with this type flame because of it's high carbon
> content.
>
> < I get many of a flintlock frizzen that people
>  have tried to temper or case harden and have screwed it up----too soft of
>  too hard and all the spark is gone----from the heating without the
>  forgeing all the surface carbon is burned out and what you have is a
>  mess---you wont know where to start to get it where you want it.
>
> Correcting someone elses screw-up is always guess work -- AT BEST!  Several
> times, I've had to "half sole" a frizen with a piece of file to get it to work
> right.
>
> < here is my best advice on the matter----iF YOU HAVE NEVER DONE THIS
>  BEFORE THEN TAKE THE "DARN" THING TO A BLACKSMITH AND TELL HIM ITS GONE SOFT
> AND HAVE HIM FORGE AND RE -TEMPER IT BEFORE YOU MAKE A MESS OUT OF IT
>
> This is realy the best policy!  Most of us who do this type work have, as
> you've said, already made enough mistakes to know what works & what doesn't.
>
> < A MANY A BOOK HAS BEEN WRITTEN ON THIS SUBJECT AND GETTING A STEEL TO THE
> POINT OF BEING A GOOD SPARKER
>
> I've discovered not all the books know what they're talking about either --
> that or they're so vague in their instructions it's still a lot of guess work.
> That's why I keep refering to M.T. Richardson & Jim Hrisoulas -- I've tried
> their suggestions, & they WORK!
>
> < ON THE WARPED BARREL THING---first check my last posting on the matter on
>  runout-- make sure that the runout is less than .010--USUALLY  a run out
>  of .010 is enough to be visable to the eye then to check if the barrel is
>  warped you can use a old gunsmith trick called the bow and string
>  method--
>
> I was going to say not to worry about anything under .003" since that's usual
> machinist tolerances -- + or - .0015.  I can see .003, but then too, I've had
> lots of practice.  My suggestions were based on the theorum that if the
> outside of the barrel is warped, the inside is too, & in most cases the
> outside is much easier to "eyeball".  A lot of people don't have the means or
> skill to pull a breech plug without serious damage to the barrel, so I hate to
> suggest it even though it IS the best way
> .
> <                      BOW AND STRING METHOD
> <                 TO CHECK FOR BENT OR WARPED BARRELS
>
> Now -- I learned somethin'!  8)  Thanks!  That's what this fourm is all about
> isn't it?  Exchanging knowledge & ideas so we can learn better ways to
> accomplish our goal of a proper portrayal of a specific part of history.
>
> NM

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 01:02:13 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warped barrel.....oh brother

got it and am getting the shackley's---got the mild steel---mild
steel---mild steel
will send you a sketch soon---by snail mail---got your
addr4ess---appreciate the good ingo---will make good use of it---


      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Mon, 03 Aug 1998 22:43:11 -0700 "Jerry H. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
writes:
>its not just salt you have to add the soap and sufactiant. it works i
>dont know
>how but it works one of the reasons that i held back to putting this
>resape on the
>list is some one maby you does not have the total resape ingrediants
>and shot from
>the hipp. you are tring to invent the wheel again.  do it like i said
>or your
>going to ruin some valuable stuff. metalergy is not one of my suits i
>got this
>brew from clay spenser a blacksmith that invented this stuff. 10lbs
>salt 32 oz of
>dawn dish soap 32 oz of shackley basic I no other. lots of luck sounds
>like you
>need it. ive ben pounding on iron more than 45yrs and still dont know
>it all never
>will.  iron tongue
>brew is for mild steel.     mild steel   mild steel   mild steel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[e-mail] wrote:
>
>> In a message dated 98-07-31 10:23:01 EDT, you write:
>>
>> << sounds like you got a bunch of engineering background you gave
>out a
>>  bunch of good info  all which seemed to be correct-
>>
>> Thanks, but it's years of heating & hammering iron as a paying hobby
>and
>> working as a heavy equipment mechanic / welder / machinist to
>support my black
>> powder habits --- and, of course, a lot of research related to both
>hobby &
>> job.  The study of metalurgy, to me, is facinating!  Like -- what
>happens if
>> you add .15% to .3% lead by volume to 4140 chrome moly steel???  It
>makes it
>> machine better -- AND, even though lead isn't supposed to effect
>hardning, it
>> WILL improve the hardning of this particular alloy.  Now comes the
>fun part --
>> WHY????  Danged if I know, but it does!  This particular quirk
>defies all the
>> rules.  Just a bit of trivia that's not realy related to our
>prefered time
>> frame, but intresting any way -- and it also illustrates that we
>don't always
>> get what we expect.
>>
>> < --got one problem with what you said---I am  going to use the
>common sense
>> approach---the salt in the water will--yes make it hard---and
>brittle
>> too--stands a good
>>  chance in breaking his steel from being brittle after a few bangs
>with
>>  the flint
>>
>> That was a recomendation by Jim Hrisoulas who's heated & hammered
>much more
>> iron than I have.  It's also mentioned in M.T. Richardson's books.
>The brine
>> solution should only be used for water hardning steels such as the
>1000 series
>> & "W" series steels.  If you try it with, say "O-1", which is an oil
>hardning
>> steel, your comments are entirely correct -- brine WILL give you
>SERIOUS
>> problems!
>>
>> < with all this heating and cooling and quenching you are going
>>  to pull most of the carbon out of the steel
>>
>> This can be minimumized by using the neutral or carburizing area of
>the flame
>> / fire.  In the forge, the neutral area is in the middle of the fire
>&
>> carburizing area is the upper portion of the fire.  Down at the
>bottom of the
>> fire close to the tuyere where the air blast enters the fire is an
>ozidixing
>> area of the fire & WILL DEFINITELY decarbonize the steel.  I've had
>some luck
>> ADDING carbon back into steel by heating in the carburizing portion
>of the
>> flame, but it's a tricky process of maintaining just the right heat
>over an
>> extended period of time to allow absorbtion of carbon by the steel.
>Basicaly,
>> the same theory applies to crucible steel, but there you have an
>abundance of
>> carbon from the charred bone & leather used inside the crucible with
>the steel
>> coupled with the absence of oxygen.  If I'm using a oxyaccetelyne
>torch to
>> heat with, I leave a bit of a white feather on the tip of the
>central light
>> blue cone of the flame to create a carburizing flame.  Modern auto
>body sheet
>> metal torch welds best with this type flame because of it's high
>carbon
>> content.
>>
>> < I get many of a flintlock frizzen that people
>>  have tried to temper or case harden and have screwed it up----too
>soft of
>>  too hard and all the spark is gone----from the heating without the
>>  forgeing all the surface carbon is burned out and what you have is
>a
>>  mess---you wont know where to start to get it where you want it.
>>
>> Correcting someone elses screw-up is always guess work -- AT BEST!
>Several
>> times, I've had to "half sole" a frizen with a piece of file to get
>it to work
>> right.
>>
>> < here is my best advice on the matter----iF YOU HAVE NEVER DONE
>THIS
>>  BEFORE THEN TAKE THE "DARN" THING TO A BLACKSMITH AND TELL HIM ITS
>GONE SOFT
>> AND HAVE HIM FORGE AND RE -TEMPER IT BEFORE YOU MAKE A MESS OUT OF
>IT
>>
>> This is realy the best policy!  Most of us who do this type work
>have, as
>> you've said, already made enough mistakes to know what works & what
>doesn't.
>>
>> < A MANY A BOOK HAS BEEN WRITTEN ON THIS SUBJECT AND GETTING A STEEL
>TO THE
>> POINT OF BEING A GOOD SPARKER
>>
>> I've discovered not all the books know what they're talking about
>either --
>> that or they're so vague in their instructions it's still a lot of
>guess work.
>> That's why I keep refering to M.T. Richardson & Jim Hrisoulas --
>I've tried
>> their suggestions, & they WORK!
>>
>> < ON THE WARPED BARREL THING---first check my last posting on the
>matter on
>>  runout-- make sure that the runout is less than .010--USUALLY  a
>run out
>>  of .010 is enough to be visable to the eye then to check if the
>barrel is
>>  warped you can use a old gunsmith trick called the bow and string
>>  method--
>>
>> I was going to say not to worry about anything under .003" since
>that's usual
>> machinist tolerances -- + or - .0015.  I can see .003, but then too,
>I've had
>> lots of practice.  My suggestions were based on the theorum that if
>the
>> outside of the barrel is warped, the inside is too, & in most cases
>the
>> outside is much easier to "eyeball".  A lot of people don't have the
>means or
>> skill to pull a breech plug without serious damage to the barrel, so
>I hate to
>> suggest it even though it IS the best way
>> .
>> <                      BOW AND STRING METHOD
>> <                 TO CHECK FOR BENT OR WARPED BARRELS
>>
>> Now -- I learned somethin'!  8)  Thanks!  That's what this fourm is
>all about
>> isn't it?  Exchanging knowledge & ideas so we can learn better ways
>to
>> accomplish our goal of a proper portrayal of a specific part of
>history.
>>
>> NM
>
>
>
>
>

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