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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest)
To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1177
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
hist_text-digest Friday, March 28 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1177
In this issue:
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper
-áááááá MtMan-List: Rifle/pistol websites?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: char cloth
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: modern trappers
-áááááá MtMan-List: off topic....more Dixie Chick stuff...delete now if offended
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: char cloth
-áááááá MtMan-List: Cursed!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: char cloth
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: char cloth
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 08:24:03 -0800
From: "Two Bears Kelsey" <tubears@charter.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper
. Tin is fine, but do not leave it in there too long.
>
> Regards,
Pewter works pretty good for tequila and for grog or beer!!! "Two Bears"
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 10:44:52 -0700
From: "busterize" <busterize@oldwest.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Rifle/pistol websites?
Can anyone refer me to a website with technical & use info on rifles,
pistols and ammo used during 1830-1845 trapping era?
Geri
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hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 16:53:29 -0600
From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns
I recall seeing manifest entries for "wiping sticks" which implies a
cleaning ramrod different than the ramrod that goes in your gunstock.
Pat
>> Pat,
Do you have any idea where you found that documentation ? We've had this
discussion before. I've searched all the manifest lists I could get my
hands on and couldn't find it. I do know that it was written in 'historical
novel'.
Pendleton
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hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 16:53:48 -0600
From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth
Can you tell me more about "washeyes"? Where, when, used by whom?
Jim
>> Jim,
"Washeyes" go back to the 18th century and were basically what we would
call "button jags". They were often furnished with rifles along with bullet
molds. Of course the problem was, when you broke your ramrod far away from
civilization you would have no way to attach a ramrod tip which you could
screw the jag in to. I think that is the reason various types of worms were
made which could be put on a somewhat tapered end of a homemade ramrod.
Pendleton
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 19:11:49 -0700 (MST)
From: <beaverboy@sofast.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: modern trappers
> I have a couple of hand forged traps about the size of #5s the rest are
> Bridger #5 they do not cost as much to replace if ya loose one I use
> total of eight traps. They are all set up with five foot of chain and I
> make my sets much like they did.
> Crazy Cyot
Cyot,
I also have 7 Bridger #5's they are a fine beaver trap. They are
expensive however.
You know as well as I that if a beaver is staked solid you have
trouble. That is all I don't like about old methods. All that is needed
to make any foothold trap a good drowning set is a length of 12 or 9ga
wire and a burlap sack to fill with rocks. Not a lot of modern stuff. I
think we can do this for a much swifter death.
I agree with you on trappers that don't check their traps often. Most
coyote trappers here in Montana run a 2 or 3 day check. I always ran a
2 day check on my land traps and up to 3 on my water sets as they are
all drowning sets or humane conibear sets. Some of my sets I check
daily and some high traffic areas I check every morning first thing.
Sometimes I set traps at dusk and pull them at dawn. Being a good
trapper is a much, much bigger responsibilty than being a good hunter.
I'd like to remind our readers that it is usually against the law to
disturb traps or trapped animals in traps. If there is a problem with a
trap call a game warden.
One trapper I knew got chewed out by the landowner for having a skunk
in a trap for 3 days in a row. The trapper informed the landowner that
it was a different skunk each day he was seeing. The trapper caught 3
skunks in 3 days. He's still trapping there.
Beavers, skunks, gophers, raccoons etc.. can cause big problems for
landowners. Trappers take care of the problem.
bb
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 20:18:21 -0600
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <lanneyratcliff@charter.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: off topic....more Dixie Chick stuff...delete now if offended
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_00E7_01C2F3D4.D8CB1780
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This little ditty got past just about everybody's radar. The story =
itself is indicative of the DC's feelings but the slant imposed on the =
story leaves little doubt where the sentiments of the writer lie.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/887590.asp#BODY
Lanney Ratcliff
lanneyratcliff@charter.net
______________________________________________________________
Aux Aliments du Pays
- ------=_NextPart_000_00E7_01C2F3D4.D8CB1780
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1141" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>This little ditty got past =
just about=20
everybody's radar. The story itself is indicative of the DC's =
feelings but=20
the slant imposed on the story leaves little doubt where the sentiments =
of the=20
writer lie.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4><A=20
href=3D"http://www.msnbc.com/news/887590.asp#BODY">http://www.msnbc.com/n=
ews/887590.asp#BODY</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D4>Lanney Ratcliff<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:lanneyratcliff@charter.net">lanneyratcliff@charter.net</A>=
<BR>______________________________________________________________<BR>Aux=
=20
Aliments du Pays<BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
- ------=_NextPart_000_00E7_01C2F3D4.D8CB1780--
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 18:22:49 -0800
From: Pat Quilter <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns
Larry
You ask a good question for which I cannot produce an exact answer of my own
knowledge. So I turned to the Internet and Google.
A search under "Wiping Stick" produced 15 or more references. Here are some
samples:
From Joe Meek, River of the West, (Off Dean's web site)
"Now," spoke up one of the men quickly, "let Meek and Stanberry prove which
is bravest, by fighting the bear!" "Agreed," cried the two as quickly, and
both sprang with guns and wiping-sticks in hand, charging upon the
infuriated beast as it reached the spot where they were awaiting it.
Stanberry was a small man, and Meek a large one. Perhaps it was owing to
this difference of stature that Meek was first to reach the bear as it
advanced. Running up with reckless bravado Meek struck the creature two or
three times over the head with his wiping-stick before aiming to fire, which
however he did so quickly and so surely that the beast fell dead at his
feet.
The same search accessed the Canadian Export Control List for historic
artifacts
Group III -- Military objects
The definitions in this section apply in this Group.
accoutrement
means a military accessory that is associated with the wearing of or use of
a specific hand-carried weapon or piece of ordnance. It includes magazines,
loading tools, belts, straps, holsters, mounts, telescopic or other sights,
powder horns or flasks, bullet pouches, molds or starters, ramrods or wiping
sticks, bayonets, scabbards, and carrying cases.(accessoires)
From
JOTTINGS OF PERSONAL RECOLLECTIONS OF A PIONEER OF 1850: By GEORGE E. COLE
Transcribed for use in USGenWeb Archives by:
W. David Samuelsen - July 2002
(After a lengthy description of events leading up to a treaty conference
that was almost derailed by the report of an Indian runner that white men
had shot one of their tribe)
The Indian responded that a company of white men down on Applegate creek,
under
command of Captain Owens, had that morning captured an Indian known as Jim
Taylor, tied him to a tree and shot him to death. The hubbub and confusion
among the Indians at once became intense, and murder glared from each savage
visage. The Indian interpreter told me that the Indians were threatening to
tie us up to trees and serve us as Owens men had served Jim Taylor. I saw
some Indians gathering up lasso ropes, while others drew the skin covers
from
their guns and the wiping sticks from the muzzles, There appeared to be a
strong probability of our party being subjected to a sudden volley.
These are just the first page of Google responses to "wiping sticks", so it
appears there are numerous references in journals. Withdrawing "wiping
sticks from the muzzles" would seem to distinguish them from ramrods,
although I could be argued out of this. But why call them wiping sticks if
not to wipe the barrel of the gun?
See what else you can come up with.
Best regards
Pat Quilter
- -----Original Message-----
From: larry pendleton [mailto:yrrw@airmail.net]
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 2:53 PM
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns
I recall seeing manifest entries for "wiping sticks" which implies a
cleaning ramrod different than the ramrod that goes in your gunstock.
Pat
>> Pat,
Do you have any idea where you found that documentation ? We've had this
discussion before. I've searched all the manifest lists I could get my
hands on and couldn't find it. I do know that it was written in 'historical
novel'.
Pendleton
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
- ----------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 19:26:53 -0700 (MST)
From: <beaverboy@sofast.net>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns
I think wiping sticks were just new replacement ramrods, different
diameters but uncut to length. Storing them in the muzzle is the perfect
place to keep them. I know my wiping stick is just that, a spare long
ramrod. I'll cut it to fit if I ever break my ramrod,... again.
bb
> Larry
> You ask a good question for which I cannot produce an exact answer of my
> own knowledge. So I turned to the Internet and Google.
>
> A search under "Wiping Stick" produced 15 or more references. Here are
> some samples:
>
> From Joe Meek, River of the West, (Off Dean's web site)
> "Now," spoke up one of the men quickly, "let Meek and Stanberry prove
> which is bravest, by fighting the bear!" "Agreed," cried the two as
> quickly, and both sprang with guns and wiping-sticks in hand, charging
> upon the infuriated beast as it reached the spot where they were
> awaiting it. Stanberry was a small man, and Meek a large one. Perhaps it
> was owing to this difference of stature that Meek was first to reach the
> bear as it advanced. Running up with reckless bravado Meek struck the
> creature two or three times over the head with his wiping-stick before
> aiming to fire, which however he did so quickly and so surely that the
> beast fell dead at his feet.
>
> The same search accessed the Canadian Export Control List for historic
> artifacts
>
> Group III -- Military objects
> The definitions in this section apply in this Group.
> accoutrement
> means a military accessory that is associated with the wearing of or use
> of a specific hand-carried weapon or piece of ordnance. It includes
> magazines, loading tools, belts, straps, holsters, mounts, telescopic or
> other sights, powder horns or flasks, bullet pouches, molds or starters,
> ramrods or wiping sticks, bayonets, scabbards, and carrying
> cases.(accessoires)
>
> From
> JOTTINGS OF PERSONAL RECOLLECTIONS OF A PIONEER OF 1850: By GEORGE E.
> COLE Transcribed for use in USGenWeb Archives by:
> W. David Samuelsen - July 2002
> (After a lengthy description of events leading up to a treaty conference
> that was almost derailed by the report of an Indian runner that white
> men had shot one of their tribe)
> The Indian responded that a company of white men down on Applegate
> creek, under
> command of Captain Owens, had that morning captured an Indian known as
> Jim Taylor, tied him to a tree and shot him to death. The hubbub and
> confusion among the Indians at once became intense, and murder glared
> from each savage visage. The Indian interpreter told me that the Indians
> were threatening to tie us up to trees and serve us as Owens men had
> served Jim Taylor. I saw some Indians gathering up lasso ropes, while
> others drew the skin covers from
> their guns and the wiping sticks from the muzzles, There appeared to be
> a strong probability of our party being subjected to a sudden volley.
>
> These are just the first page of Google responses to "wiping sticks", so
> it appears there are numerous references in journals. Withdrawing
> "wiping sticks from the muzzles" would seem to distinguish them from
> ramrods, although I could be argued out of this. But why call them
> wiping sticks if not to wipe the barrel of the gun?
>
> See what else you can come up with.
>
> Best regards
> Pat Quilter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: larry pendleton [mailto:yrrw@airmail.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 2:53 PM
> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns
>
>
> I recall seeing manifest entries for "wiping sticks" which implies a
> cleaning ramrod different than the ramrod that goes in your gunstock.
>
> Pat
>
>>> Pat,
> Do you have any idea where you found that documentation ? We've had
> this
> discussion before. I've searched all the manifest lists I could get my
> hands on and couldn't find it. I do know that it was written in
> 'historical novel'.
>
> Pendleton
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
- ----------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 21:58:15 -0700
From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@sourceoneinternet.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper
> Wynn,
> You may have a point there. I will go back and do some more field testing
> and then share the results.
> D
>
Dennis I have quit drinking for a while. Sorta like gave it up for lent
kinda thing but if I get back to it afore we cross tracks I will be happy to
share your results with you.
Wynn
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 20:07:12 -0600
From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns
These are just the first page of Google responses to "wiping sticks", so it
appears there are numerous references in journals.
>>Pat,
Like you, I've found lots of references to "wiping sticks", but I can find
no record of them being hauled to the mountains for trade. I've checked all
the lists on Dean's Site and unless I missed something, they ain't there.
Pendleton
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------------------------------
Date: 27 Mar 2003 18:57:27 -0800
From: "Curtis Krouse" <kc16@qwest.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns
I've found on a list gun worms, but no mention of ramrods, wiping
sticks, or wooden dowls.
Blood
On Thu, 2003-03-27 at 18:07, larry pendleton wrote:
> These are just the first page of Google responses to "wiping sticks", so it
> appears there are numerous references in journals.
>
> >>Pat,
> Like you, I've found lots of references to "wiping sticks", but I can find
> no record of them being hauled to the mountains for trade. I've checked all
> the lists on Dean's Site and unless I missed something, they ain't there.
>
> Pendleton
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
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------------------------------
Date: 27 Mar 2003 19:06:12 -0800
From: "Curtis Krouse" <kc16@qwest.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth
Capt,
Don't much care for fightin' about it neither. But, I was talking about
myself. I would be very hesitant.....I know I would. Would the common
trader?....maybe. I think that they would stick close to each other
unless they were in a safe area. There were too many stories of attacks
from friendly tribes let alone hostile ones.
My reasoning is this...... No one will leave a trading post with out
supplying themselves for the trip. They just wouldn't do it. Not only
would they supply themselves, but they'll take a lot of extra stuff to
trade for furs. I can't imagine someone who is supplied like that would
say, "No thanks....I don't use cloth for char...I like to scrounge
around for mine." I can't imagine anyone having that sort of reasoning
as you put it. I maintain that they would use cloth for char until
their supply dwindles, then they would resupply with local materials
along the trail. It's the same thing that you and I would do. Whether
you stock up on charwood at home or char cloth at home....you never
leave home without it. Once your supplies get low, you replenish with
what is available. If you can't find anything locally for whatever
reason, then you use your trading supplies. But, you sure aren't going
to go cold just so you can save a few yards of cloth. That seems to me
to be sound reasoning and seems to be exactly what I would do.
I didn't imply that a good trader would not use and experiment with
local materials to learn survival techniques....we know they did.
Natural curiosity would drive any of us to do that. But.....I will
still maintain that they stocked up on everything...including cloth for
char and then restocked as they went.
Nuff said,
Blood
On Tue, 2003-03-25 at 22:15, roger lahti wrote:
> Blood,
>
> Not looking to pick a fight with you brother but if
>
> "Now, if I were in the mountains, loaded with company goods, I certainly
> > would NOT stray from camp in hostile territory to find fungus, burnt
> > trees, or any other substance to start the fire with. I'd be using the
> > reams of cloth that I had at my disposal."
>
> etc. isn't implying a certain fear of getting away from camp then I guess I
> can't read the English language worth squat.
>
> That may not be what you meant but that is what you said. And no I don't
> think you believe they were too scared to leave camp. I just don't think
> your reasoning is valid.
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 20:22:19 -0700 (MST)
From: <beaverboy@sofast.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Cursed!
> Beaverboy,
> If it is within your power to curse me back to 1829 and put a pile of
> beaver at my feet and Jim Bridger across the fire dryin' his moccasins
> while I skin, you just curse yourself silly.
> Jim
Jim,
We are floating the Yellowstone River next week, the 3rd-6th. It is
within my power to invite you to join us. Nonresidents can't trap beaver
(if your a nonresident of Montana?) but they sure can skin them. We
ain't Jim Bridger but we are Potts, Drouillard, Colter, and Shields.
We'd love to have you come along and do all the skinning. We don't curse
on our trips however.
beaverboy
Contact me off list if your interested. I've heard about how
people are deceitful on the internet. Hopefully you're really a
beautiful blonde female and not a smelly trapper.
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 21:05:01 -0800
From: "roger lahti" <amm1719@charter.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth
Blood,
Just wanted to make sure we all understood that this was a good natured
discussion between friends and not a heated argument.
But no one has said that anyone back then would knowingly leave their supply
point be it a trading post, fort or rendezvous without the necessary gear
and that would include fire makings. What I tried to point out is that
resupplying those makings with more natural materials does not require doing
anything more than stepping away from the fire. And there are plenty of
materials around that one would hardly ever run out.
No, I can't buy your argument that it was too dangerous so therefore they
must have had to use char cloth or char up their trade goods. There is not
the valid justification for such a supposition. You know perfectly well that
trappers and traders like the Americans and people in our country like
Alexander Ross traveled all over the place without running afoul of Bug's
Boys every time they turned around.
If you want to use char cloth then do so. If you want to convince anyone
that it was the material of choice your going to have to come up with some
better arguments.
YF&B
Capt. Lahti'
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 13:27:51 -0500
From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth
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