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hist_text-digest       Saturday, August 1 1998       Volume 01 : Number 116




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:35:19 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leggings into pants

Longshot,

You present a good argument for the use of knee britches, and if I were
inclined to depict a Rocky Mtn trapper at an 1830s rondy, Miller would be a
good one to follow, assuming that he didn't take any artistic license.  Rex
Norman and I have had this discussion at length a few times.  When it comes
down to it, I really have no desire to wear knee britches.  My primary
focus is Southwest and Southern Plains, and although some individuals may
have worn knee britches, period Mexican drawers under the leggings, or none
at all is the route I'm taking.

Since Miller (1837) and Bodmer (1833) each only covered one specific region
at one specific time, I can't form conclusions on their observations being
the rule for the "fur trade period" at large.  We have to remember that the
fur trade existed well outside the realm of the rendezvous.  Fur trading
posts and settlements all over the West had their particular clientel and
characters with their own peculiar look, and an examination of the
rendezvous can't possibly capture a complete picture of what was and was
not worn.  Neither Bodmer nor Miller documented trappers/traders in the
Southwest or southern plains.  If either men had been at Bent's Fort or
Santa Fe at the same time, the men in their sketches would have a markedly
different look.

To each his own.  :-)

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:44:36 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting pouches, breeches

> There is a Miller called "Picketing Horses
>at Evening" which certainly seems to show a
>trapper in knee breeches.  Later paintings
>of the scene changed them to fringed pantaloons.
>While breeches were still around in the early 19th
>century, by the 1830s they were very
>much out of style and therefore probably somewhat
>uncommon.

>More discussion of this same topic, including the
>Miller paintings is in the piece that
>Clay Landry and I did in Book of Buckskinning VII
>on traper clothing.
>Allen Chronister


You and Clay did an excellent job on that chapter on clothing.  It inspired
me to have a double breasted vest made of the type on page 36.  Mine will
be of burgundy wool.  Can't wait.

Thanks to both of you for an outstanding piece of work.

Cheers,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:01:49 -0700
From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft

you took the fire out of it by anealing it on the fire if it is hi carbon
steel it willget hard if you heat it to a wet red and quench it in oil. if
its mild steel and was case hardned that another story.   iron tongue

[e-mail] wrote:

> I wonder if this has happened to anyone.  I had a striker that worked
> well enough. It was misplaced and was not used for a year or so.  I
> threw it on the burner when I found it thinking it wouldn't hurt(I was
> browning a pistol barrel).  Now I find the darn thing, the striker, has
> gone soft.  No spark and now has some real fine notches from the flint
> in it.  Could some of you iron workers shed some light on this situation
> for me?  Did I do wrong heating it up?
> I have other stikers but would like to know if it is shot enough to have
> made into a firepit hanger or something.
> Thanks for your input and time.
> J.D.Stoddard
> (working on losing his green)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:09:46 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leggings into pants

In a message dated 98-07-31 16:37:51 EDT, you write:

<< Since Miller (1837) and Bodmer (1833) each only covered one specific region
 at one specific time, I can't form conclusions on their observations being
 the rule for the "fur trade period" at large. >>

   True enough.  I never intended to relate a conclusion that knee breeches
and leggin's should be considered a rule.  Just that it may well be a good
possibuility that they might have prhaps been more prevelant than might
otherwise have been assumed.  At any rate I don't believe that they should be
dicounted anf if you allready have the leggin's and aren't all that
comfortable with the breechclout, then goinhg with the knee breeches would
probably be a better route to go than to try and turn the leggin's into pants.
   Also, the point that I was trying to relate that the writer of the piece
was trying to make, was that a lot more consideration should be given to the
sketches made on the scene than the paintings made at a later time.

                                            Longshot

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:15:50 -0700
From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iron Striker gone Soft

that recipe i gave you the other day is what i want you to try on your
frizzens i think it will work.   as to the message to the other striker gone
soft  i-----!!!!!!!!! forgot to tell you to temper  it after you quench it
polish it and then heat it back up carefully to a straw color yes a dull
yellow. m.p. and i will try another method soon and will get back to the list
and dial you in on another method and a witches brew that if it will work
will make it much easier.

Michael Pierce wrote:

> iRON TOUNG CAN EXPOUND ON THE ART OF TEMPERING==
> i can only give you a way of how i would do it---
> heat to a straw color hold for about 2 or 3 min to insure that the heat
> is constant thru the piece--submerge in 10 weight oil----I use bear
> grease---most of my strikers I make out of old files---i grind the edge
> smooth and leave the serrations on to hold the striker with-+++++warning
> :====dont get the edge hot when grinding take your time.  you will find
> it has the proper temper for a good striker without having to temper--
>
> NOTE:  If you use water to quinch it will make the striker too hard and
> brittal---and you will have to draw it to keep it from breaking---
>
> to case a frizzen i normally hold the frizzen in a vise by the attachment
> part with the strikeing side up-but first I dip the frizzen in 10 weight
> oil , or sperm oil, or bear grease, i then hold the frizzen by the
> attachment end and whirl it around in the casonite---i then place it in
> the vise with the frisen striker side up and put as much casenite on the
> frizzen as i can get on it.  i take my torch and heat to a straw color---
> i place a bucket of water under the frizzen very close to the vise so
> that when i reliese the vise it will fall into the water.  should be no
> more than 12 to 18 inches away-  heat to a straw color and hold for at
> least 2 to 4 min---keeping the heat on the frizzen i reliece the vise and
> let the frizzen fall into the water---It will make a sound like a gun
> going off---a large crack-  i then draw the frizzen because it will be
> extremely hard and brittal---dont draw it too much or you will defeat the
> case hardening---I use comercial casenite---usto mix up my own stuff but
> now do it the easy way---can buy from most gun suppliers--- brownelle or
> even dixie---I have a can that i have been using for anout 8 or 10
> years---
>
> you can do the same to the striker if you cannot get it to temper
> correctly and it will work---
>
> remember water makes it brittal and you will have to draw it so it wont
> break like glass-------
>
> IRON TOUNG COME ON LINE AND TELL HIM HOW  A SMITH WOULD DO THE
> TEMPERING-- I AM NOT A SMITTY OR A FORGE PERSON ---THIS TAKES A LOT OF
> TRAINING OR EXPERIENCE----i CAN CASE A PART OR TEMPER BUT IT'S USALLY A
> TRIAL OR ERROR THING FOR ME--- EVEN THOUGH I DO HAVE A HEAT TREAT FURNICE
> AND USE IT MOST OF THE TIME WITH MY GUN PARTS THAT I MAKE--- have made a
> many a mainspring and had them snap the first time i put tension on them
> because of them bring too hard and brittal or having a mark in the metal
> the wrong way--- spend several hrs making one and break it will kina make
> you say funny words to the walls of the shop and to everything else that
> is in there---
>
> TEMPERING AND HEAT TREATING IS A SCIENCE THAT I AM NOT A EXPERT IN BUT
> HAVE BEEN FORCED TO DABBLE IN A LOT SO ----I KNOW THERE IS A BUNCH ON THE
> LIST THAT CAN HELP YOU OUT IF THIS PALABER DOESNT----
>
> JUST POST YOUR QUESTIONS AND SOMEONE OUT THERE HAS THE
> EXPERTIESE---PROBABLY MORE THAN ME-----
>
>       "Hawk"
> Michael Pierce
> 854 Glenfield Dr.
> Palm Harbor, florida   34684
> 1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
>
> On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:24:14 -0600 (CST) [e-mail] (Henry B.
> Crawford) writes:
> >>I had a striker that worked
> >>well enough.  I
> >>threw it on the burner when I found it thinking it wouldn't hurt(I
> >was
> >>browning a pistol barrel).  Now I find the darn thing, the striker,
> >has
> >>gone soft.  Did I do wrong heating it up?
> >>I have other stikers but would like to know if it is shot enough to
> >have
> >>made into a firepit hanger or something.
> >
> >All isn't lost.  It just has to be retempered.  Any smithy could do it
> >for
> >you.  I think it has something to do with how it's quenched.  I have
> >one
> >that was a "C" shape and I wanted to close off one of the ends to hold
> >a
> >thong, so I had a smith do it.  After it was closed he had to reharden
> >it.
> >I seem to remember him quenching it in oil, but there may have been
> >another
> >step there somewhere.
> >
> >Good luck.  No need to retire it as a pot hook yet.
> >
> >HBC
> >
> >*****************************************
> >Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
> >[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
> >806/742-2442           Box 43191
> >FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
> >               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
> >******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:25:41 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn-Man: Thank you and question

In a message dated 98-07-31 14:36:10 EDT, you write:

> Susan (and interested others), There are a couple of great newpapers
> published
>  that listing events:
>  Smoke & Fire News (monthly) PO 166 Grand Rapids, OH 43522  [phone]
>  $18/yr or $34/2yrs;  (this covers many areas of reenacting interests)

Smoke and Fire has a fledgling website.  It doesn't have their catalog online
yet, but you can subscribe to the paper online.

Another feature of their site is the abilility to send them information about
your club's event and the details regarding it.  They will then publish the
info in Smoke & Fire News.  They have about a 3 month lead time for event
publication, and they will call you on the phone to physically confirm the
details.  This feature will be a great addition to those who have small events
that need to be publicized.  The URL is:

http://smoke-fire.com/

OldFox

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:32:51 -0700
From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn-Man: Introduction and request for help

a family that plays together stays together. if he could document the
rendezvous and make short movies of sound and sites of such he would b welcome
in my camp any time we need documentation of old skill he would be dressed
accordingly im sure if he presented him self in a way that would not offend
the period police he could of great value. i for one would like to have access
to skills that are not documented . maybe im wishful in thinking this as im
single and don't have anyone in my camp that don't want to be or you could
give it up --i don't think so theirs my 2 cents worth

S. Gilbert wrote:

> Hello the camp.
>
>         I have been lurking for a bit now and tried once earlier to make
> my presence known, without much success(posting problems).
>         My name is Susan Gilbert, aka She Has Old Hands.  I've been
> interested in and researching women in colonial and frontier America for
> about 8 years.  I do presentations for the local schools on the daily
> lives of 2 of my ancestors, Annie Night-born, a Cherokee mid-wife and yarb
> woman and Matilda McFarland Clayton, wife of a trapper and cartographer
> named John Wesley Clayton.  My presentations are done in character as
> either one of these women and I have learned many of the "goodwife" skills
> necessary to run a house and feed and cloth a family in the period they
> lived. I never thought of my presentations as "Living History" until
> someone who saw me used the term to describe what I do.
>         2 years ago I stumbled across a Voo at Ushers Ferry, in Iowa, and
> was completely captivated.  I would love to get involved but I have an
> unusual problem.
>         I'm a married woman who's husband is only mildly interested in
> this area.  Brian is very supportive of my interest and has allowed me to
> drag him all over our area in search of gear and people to interview, but
> feels there is no place for him. He is not interested in firearms,
> trapping, or any of the other things that occupy you menfolk, other than
> as a spectator.  He is a videographer, photographer, astronomer and Alpha
> computer geek.
>         So how does a woman involve an only marginally interested husband
> in the lifestyle?  You who had to coax a hesitant wife might be able to
> give me some hints, I hope.
>         I have enjoyed this group very much and hope to be much more
> involved now that I mustered my courage and finally said hello.
>
> Thank you for your attention and any help you can offer.
>
> Your humble servant,
> She Has Old Hands
>
> Susan Gilbert
> [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:55:40 -0500
From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn-Man: Thank you and question

Susan, try HTTP://pwp.starnetinc.com/elf/events      Wisconsin,ill. Iowa,
Missouri and Minnisota if I remember. Also,I cannot remember the name of the
book,but I saw a beautiful wood tube 4" reflecter that was not only "period
correct" but an instument to be proud of,the original was from 18th century
England. Now I have to try to find it :-)
On 1998-07-31 [e-mail] said to [e-mail]
   >X-Sender: [e-mail]
   >Morning all,
   >Thank you all so much for the warm welcome.  The suggestions for
   >luring my husband into the fold are great.  He is a good
   >photographer and has a collection of older cameras.  I suspect an
   >opportunity to explore very early photography methods would appeal
   >to him.  Any excuse to acquire some new equipment and learn
   >something new. Of course, the opportunity to take the telescope out
   >is not to be overlooked.  He was afraid his would be too modern to
   >take to a voo, but now he's thinking of looking for a period kit he
   >can build and use on site.
   >My question is this:  How do I find information on voos and
   >gatherings in my area?  And other like minded people?  I live in
   >Iowa and the only gatherings I have found are at Ushers Ferry in
   >Cedar Rapids and at Fort Atkison (sp?).  And everyone I spoke to
   >was from someplace other than Iowa.   The only newsletter I found
   >for Iowa is no longer being published, and I have not yet found a
   >web list that shows anything for Iowa.
   >thanks for the help
   >your humble servant,
   >Susan Gilbert
   >She Has Old Hands
   >Iowa City, Iowa
   >[e-mail]

SOUFLE,SOUFLE  La VIELLE

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:17:36 -0700
From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Rendezvous

Hello the camp!

Seems like most of the rendezvous are taking place east of my neck of
the woods, (amend that to read desert), but for the other two or three
skinners west of the Rockies, there is at least one up coming event you
might want to know about.
The Feather River Buckskinners are having their "Last Chance Rendezvous"
on October 9, 10 & 11 near Chester Calif. (northern Calif.)
The Booshway is Terry (Fire Walker) Reeve and he can be contacted at
530-253-3373 or you can call 3 Legs at 530-256-3941 for information.

Medicine Bear

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:26:11 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leggings into pants

For some of the newer readers I think perhaps we should note there are several
variations of leggings.  Some of the postings don't  make clear to which style
they are referring.

There are Eastern style leggings, Plains style leggings, and Southwest style
leggings, and probably more style leggings.  Some come to the waist and tie to
a thong or belt; some like Southwest are only calf high similar to women
leggings. Calf high leggings are basically a rectangle of leather (sometimes
decorated) which ties above the calf, perhaps for much the same reason as
chaps
to protect the riders lower legs in brushy country.  Waist high leggings can
be: shaped or straight cut, with or without fringes, flaps, ribbons, bells,
tassels, thimbles, paint, moose hair, quills or other decoration like buttons,
bangles and beads.

I hope this is clarifying, I am far from expert on all the variations and
nuances of leggings.

John...

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:23:17 -0500
From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest

Washtahay-
time to catch up so I will answer several posts at once.

At 11:44 AM 7/31/98 +0100, you wrote:
>Here are some breif an probably unnecessary
>comments on recent discussions.
>1.  I would really be great if someone could find
>a supportable pouch that
>was actually used in the west before 1840.  They
>almost certainly exist, the problem
>is proving that a particular piece went to the
>mountains.  Hope somebody does.
>Don't discount pouches that looked professionally
>made.
>Professionally made shooting bags were quite
>common in the 1820-40
>west.  The American Fur Company posts regularly
>had them in inventory,
>and occasionally bought them from the famous
>saddle maker Thorton Grimsley.
>Anything made by Grimsley would have been sturdy,
>well made and would have had a
>professional saddler's look to it.  And, they were
> used in the west.<snip>
>Allen Chronister
    Wouldn't it be great if someone would come up with such a bag?  The last
time I spoke with Charles Hanson he said he had been looking for a long
time, and knew of bags he THOUGHT fit the criteria, but couldn't document
any of them.
    Of the bags I have seen that I thought might fill the bill here, most were
obviously the product of professional leather workers.  But without
documentation, there is no way to say the bag was actually in the area of
interest.  Are you aware of any surviving examples of Grimsley's bags?
    I heard a rumor a few days ago about the possible whereabouts of Lucien
Fontanelle's bag and horn...may be out of touch this weekend trying to
chase it down.  Meantime, the closest I can come is Kurz's sketch of
Denig's rifle and bag-and that dates from 1851.  Offhand, I would guess
that that bag was professionally made, or Kurz took some artistic
liberties....

And Addison Miller wrote:
>
>Next month I am going to the Museum of the Fur Trade.  If there is a
>shooters pouch there, rest assured I will take MANY pictures of it, and make
>them available on my WWW page and send you all the address so you can DL any
>pix of it you would like.  Hope this will help and you all can wait that
long...

    Addison, I don't know how the collection has changed since the change in
management, but I had examined every bag in the collection prior to the
summer of '96.  None of them met the criteria set above.  But who knows?
Something may have turned up, or new info found on one of the other bags.
Also, I don't know what the new management's approach to "public access"
will be.  Sometime around a fire, I will tell you about hunting squirrels
in the museum garden with Tecumseh's fusil...

And Iron Burner wrote...
>
>Has there been any comments on the bags shown in:
>
>http://www.oct-country.com/shootbag.htm

    Some of 'em look ok from here, but for less $ you can build a better
bag-sewn with linen, by hand.  IIRC, those are machine sewn with nylon.

Still searching...
LongWalker c. du B.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:07:18 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leggings into pants

just to add to john's posting about leggings - the southwest variety I have
seen in referrence material are usually decorated with ailver or brass
conchas, and from what I have been told are called botas.  PJ

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 07:18:06 -0700
From: Longtrail <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rit color remover tames chrome tan

I learned this helpful trick from  Spotted Bear in Oregon.  My first
rendezvous dress was of chemical tanned leather and a yucky color.  Arnie
suggested soaking the dress in a tub of water with Rit color remover in it.
It worked!  The dress was no longer the orangeish color but a tamed down
tan.
As soon as I put the dress in the water the color began to fade out of it.
The lighter it gets depends on the amount of Rit color remover and time
allowed to soak.  Remember to stir the item often to make sure there are no
folds that will become a streak.  I didn't stretch it after I was finished,
just let it dry then wore it.  It was a bit stiff at first but softened out
within a few hours.  I don't mean stiff like rawhide, just rough like
factory tan gets when it gets soaked.
My dress didn't look just ike brain tan, but looked much better,  at least
I thought so.

Rit color remover can usually be purchased anywhere Rit Dye can be purchased.
The factory tanned leather is often very ugly in color.   There is factory
tanned leather that can be purchased which is described as  Oatmeal Color.
Thats close to the brain tan color, I had a dress of that once.  It is
still slick on the inside and uncomfortable to wear when it is hot.

I knew a man once who received his name due to the shiney new set of Yellow
skins he wore,
Right Yeller Pig?????????????  Where ever you are.

                        Longtrail

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:42:40 -0500
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Rit Dye Remover for Hides

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello the List
I have used Rit Dye Remover on several occasions with great success.   =
Once I was given three elk hides and five or six mule deer hides, all =
commercialy tanned and the color of ear wax.  Waugh!!
I turned the water heater thermostat up to near simmer and washed the =
hides with a little detergent. I  refilled the washing machine and added =
four or five bottles of the remover (but no more detergent) to the =
hides.  I ran the washer on the longest wash cycle and kept a keen ear =
to the process.  When the  wash cycle was finished, but before the drain =
cycle started, I restarted the wash cycle.  I kept this up until I was =
satisfied with the color of the hides---maybe three or four cycles, I =
forget---and allowed the washer to run through the complete wash/rinse =
cycle.  I then ran the washer again (in effect two more rinse cycles) to =
be sure the hides were completely free of any chemical residue.  I hung =
the hides over a cotton rope stretched all over the inside of my garage, =
pulled them into shape but did not stretch them and allowed them to dry. =
They dried a little stiff--but not bad--so I ran them in the clothes =
dryer on air only (no heat) with a half dozen tennis balls.  Never mind =
what it sounded like!!  My wife made me a coat from 2 1/2 of the elk =
hides (I am a really big person----I'm pretty sure that if Christopher =
Columbus had used this coat for a sail he would have been here in 1491). =
 I don't pretend that the leather is brain tanned, but it is a pleasant =
neutral color and has picked up an honest patina of dirt, grass and =
smoke stains and I am quite proud of it.  I'm not that hard to spot, so =
come and have a look if our paths ever cross.
Lanney Ratcliff =20

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<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hello the List</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I have used Rit Dye Remover on =
several occasions=20
with great success.   Once I was given three elk hides and =
five or six=20
mule deer hides, all commercialy tanned and the color of ear wax. =20
Waugh!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I turned the water heater thermostat =
up to near=20
simmer and washed the hides with a little detergent. I  refilled =
the=20
washing machine and added four or five bottles of the remover (but no =
more=20
detergent) to the hides.  I ran the washer on the longest wash =
cycle and=20
kept a keen ear to the process.  When the  wash cycle was =
finished,=20
but before the drain cycle started, I restarted the wash cycle.  I =
kept=20
this up until I was satisfied with the color of the hides---maybe three =
or four=20
cycles, I forget---and allowed the washer to run through the complete =
wash/rinse=20
cycle.  I then ran the washer again (in effect two more rinse =
cycles) to be=20
sure the hides were completely free of any chemical residue.  I =
hung the=20
hides over a cotton rope stretched all over the inside of my garage, =
pulled them=20
into shape but did not stretch them and allowed them to dry. They dried =
a little=20
stiff--but not bad--so I ran them in the clothes dryer on air only (no =
heat)=20
with a half dozen tennis balls.  Never mind what it sounded =
like!!  My=20
wife made me a coat from 2 1/2 of the elk hides (I am a really big =
person----I'm=20
pretty sure that if Christopher Columbus had used this coat for a sail =
he would=20
have been here in 1491).  I don't pretend that the leather is brain =
tanned,=20
but it is a pleasant neutral color and has picked up an honest patina of =
dirt,=20
grass and smoke stains and I am quite proud of it.  I'm not that =
hard to=20
spot, so come and have a look if our paths ever cross.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Lanney Ratcliff =20
</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BDBCD4.8669A100--

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:53:04 -0700
From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rit Dye Remover for Hides

- --------------C2683410137BF548192EEBC6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Lanny,

That cinches it!  I was cleaning out my plunder and found 5 deer hides
of the most golden color you could imagine!  I was about to toss them
when I saw yours and others talking about Rit dye remover...heck, it's
worth a try!  Nothin' ta loose!  I'll be sure and post a report.

Medicine Bear

Lanney Ratcliff wrote:

> I have used Rit Dye Remover on several occasions with great success.
> <snip>

- --------------C2683410137BF548192EEBC6
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML>
<BODY BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF">
Lanny,
<P>That cinches it!  I was cleaning out my plunder and found 5 deer
hides of the most golden color you could imagine!  I was about to
toss them when I saw yours and others talking about Rit dye remover...heck,
it's worth a try!  Nothin' ta loose!  I'll be sure and post a
report.
<P>Medicine Bear
<P>Lanney Ratcliff wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>I have used Rit
Dye Remover on several occasions with great success.  <snip></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>

</BODY>
</HTML>

- --------------C2683410137BF548192EEBC6--

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:24:07 +0000
From: [e-mail] (RANDAL J BUBLITZ)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rit Dye Remover for Hides

Lanney, are you the nice fellow I met in Idaho a month ago?  From Texas?
If so, it was a pleasure to make your aquintance.  I'm 'Hardtack', or
Randy, from Cal..  I have had great success with Rit Dye remover.  I've
only met one set of hides which it didn't seem to phase.  These were
blue!  I found that leaving them in the sunlight, works well on a lot of
hides, slowly turned them to gray.  I made my first leggings from these
hides.  After some use, dirt, sweat , etc.... these leggings don't look
half bad.  I've turned some bright yellow hides into nice natural tan
looking hides with Rit dye remover.  I, too, use the washer sparingly- a
lot of soak, a little agitate.  Spin dry, hang dry, then fluff in the
dryer with NO heat.  I've since been learning- trial, reading, error-
about brain tanning.  This is absolutely the best leather, but as we
learn, we have to make due sometimes.  don't be afraid to experiment-
leather is tough stuff.   Hope to see you down the trail..   Hardtack

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 01:11:11 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Northwest Company

Lee,

Here is a list of good books on the North West Company:

Campbell, Marjorie Wilkins.  "The North West Company." St. Martin's Press, NY
1957.  (Good, overall history of the company)

Davidson, Gordon Charles. "The North West Company." University of California
Press, Berkeley. 1918.  (Also an overall history)

Payette, B.C. "The Oregon Country Under the Union Jack." Payette Radio
Limited,
Montreal, Canada. 1962   (Contains many journal entries and transcripts of
historical documents.  lots of everyday happenings, primarily around Astoria
and the Pacific Northwest)

"Masson, L.R. "Les Bourgeois de la Compagnie u Nord-Ouest." 2 Vol. Antiquarian
Press Ltd. NY 1960.  (Although som of it is in French, there's enough English
to make it worth looking inot.  Contains a lot of letters, journals, etc.
people like Alexander Henry, Joseph Frobisher, David Thompson and the like.)


I'm sure there are more but these will get you started.  The Payette book has
alot of daily life sort of entries and may be a good beginning point.  All of
these are probably out of print but a good university library ought to have
them or be able to get them through inter-library loan.

You can also bet Angela Gottfed will post something here in a little bit that
will be excellent references cause taht's certainly closer to her area of
expertise!

Good luck.  And if any of you run across something on Andrew Piccard, let me
know.  He keeps a pretty low profile but was employed by NWC on the Columbia
over the winter of 1813/14.  I'd appreciate any source you might dig up.

Jim Hardee, AMM #1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] FAX
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 00:19:07 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rob: Allan's 1804, report

Progress Report:

As the group seems to be lively again; I figure maybe its time to report on
progress and offer another teaser, to whet folks appetites, until I get the
digital images posted.

After carefully considering all the good advice I decided not to subject=
 this
treasure to the harsh light of a scanner.  I've acquired a professional
lighted
copy stand and am selecting various types of lights to mount in the=
 adjustable
double holders, and  arranging to use some large format cameras once I have
the
lighting and film type worked out.  I will shoot tests with a variety of
set-ups and then choose which combination of light, lens, camera and film
offers the best resolution.  Once that is determined I will shoot all the
pages
and they should be posted shortly after that, it may take a while to get to,
after that.

I have scant idea whom Rob: Allan (the author) was or where he may have
lived.=20
I have found one clue, which has offered me a surprise in dating a chemical
term I have thought was only of a later period.

One recipe mentions going to the gas works (referring to coal generated gas)
and acquiring mineral oil (aka, coal oil) for one of the recipes.  What may
help pin point, Rob: Allan; is the gas works.

Does anyone have information on which cities had gas lighting in 1804?  Was=
 it
only in London; or did NY, Montreal, or Boston, (or - ?),  also have the
technology? =20

Does anyone have a chart of common British shorthand/symbol abbreviations=
 for
weight and measures used in 1804?  The abbreviations used offer the only=
 other
clue, I've found, as to his origins.  I only think they're British as they=
 are
not familiar to me.  They could be a form of scientific shorthand.  At some
point we'll need to get them figured out.

I am transcribing one receipt, this is the first publication; it is freely
available to copy, use and distribute without cost for educational and
personal
use.  It may not be used or reprinted for any commercial purpose (excepting
those whose venture is a traditional/historical craft) without written
permission.

I chose this particular excerpt to try and add to the current excellent
threads
of Stithy information on the list.

Begin quote from Rob: Allan=92s 1804=85=85=85.


Test to distinguish Iron from Steel:       p.31

Take Nitric Acid; dilute with so much water, that it will only feebly act=
 upon
the blade of a common table knife.  If a drop of this be put upon steel, and
allowed to remain a few minutes, and then wash=92d off with water it leaves=
 a
black spot.  But if a drop be just upon Iron, the spot will not be black,=
 but
of a whitish gray colour.

End quote=85=85=85=85=85..


The book has several other simple tests to identify metals.  There are two,
shoe & boot waterproofing receipts.  There are several glue and cement
receipts.

For period pyromaniacs & those who miss their holiday fireworks.  The book=
 has
at least two receipts for making chemical balls, which can be cast upon the
water to make multi-color fire on and under the water.  There are formulae=
 for
various color flames, how to cause combustion by addition of water, how to
cause metals to burn, and several other ways to start fires, make black
powder,
and still more.

There are a few pages I am sorely tempted to hold back.  One is something=
 I've
been searching for, nineteen years.  I've only before read rumors of its
existence and had come to suspect charlatanism combined with slow poison,=
 was
the truth of the rumor.  Now I have something to test, which suggests the
rumor
may be true.  No I'll not say what it is.=20

Maybe more later,

John=85

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.=20
john [e-mail] =20

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 18:07:09 GMT
From: [e-mail] (PHIL PETERSEN)
Subject: MtMan-List: Preserving a Snake Skin

A friend of mine killed a Copperhead the other day and gave the whole snake
to me.  The snake is now frozen.  Please advise your methods of skinning the
snake and preserving the skin.  Can you glue a cured skin to leather?
Please respond to:  [e-mail].

Thank You,
Phil

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 14:20:15 -0500
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rit Dye Remover for Hides

Hardtack
That would be me you met in Idaho...and it was also my pleasure to meet you.
That was a good doin's, wasn't it?  I have heard several methods of using
the dye remover and they all seem to work satisfactorily.  The actual method
used probably doesn't matter at all because, like you said, leather is
plenty tough.  It doesn't surprise me about that sky blue leather...God
knows how the color is applied.   I have seen bales of it and I have seen
several garments, dresses mostly, made from it.  Others can have my share of
it.   See you next year on the east slope of the Tetons.
YF&B
Lanney Ratcliff  #1585
Tejas Party
- -----Original Message-----
From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Friday, July 31, 1998 11:38 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rit Dye Remover for Hides


>Lanney, are you the nice fellow I met in Idaho a month ago?  From Texas?
>If so, it was a pleasure to make your aquintance.  I'm 'Hardtack', or
>Randy, from Cal..  I have had great success with Rit Dye remover.  I've
>only met one set of hides which it didn't seem to phase.  These were
>blue!  I found that leaving them in the sunlight, works well on a lot of
>hides, slowly turned them to gray.  I made my first leggings from these
>hides.  After some use, dirt, sweat , etc.... these leggings don't look
>half bad.  I've turned some bright yellow hides into nice natural tan
>looking hides with Rit dye remover.  I, too, use the washer sparingly- a
>lot of soak, a little agitate.  Spin dry, hang dry, then fluff in the
>dryer with NO heat.  I've since been learning- trial, reading, error-
>about brain tanning.  This is absolutely the best leather, but as we
>learn, we have to make due sometimes.  don't be afraid to experiment-
>leather is tough stuff.   Hope to see you down the trail..   Hardtack
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
>Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #116
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