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hist_text-digest        Thursday, July 30 1998        Volume 01 : Number 111




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:48:39 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest

dont know of a end date on the contest yet but have some original pouches
that I am goint to have photographed if you have a way to post----I can
get them to bmp files---

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:00:09 -0400 [e-mail] (Addison O. Miller)
writes:
>Next month I am going to the Museum of the Fur Trade.  If there is a
>shooters pouch there, rest assured I will take MANY pictures of it,
>and make
>them available on my WWW page and send you all the address so you can
>DL any
>pix of it you would like.  Hope this will help and you all can wait
>that long...
>
>Addison Miller
>
>>Washtahay-
>>    OK folks.  We've had a lot of palaver over one small feature
>of one bag
>>the last few days.  So lets get down to brass tacks on this.  I want
>to
>>locate an original hunting pouch that we can document as having been
>in use
>>on the frontier in the years 1825 to 1835, with the target date of
>1830.
>>Here are the criteria the bag must meet:
>>    "Frontier" is defined as Rocky Mountains, Santa Fe trade,
>Texas, or the
>>Missouri River trade.  We should probably include bags in use in the
>St
>>Louis area and west within Missouri.  While I would love to hear
>about the
>>bags in use in the North during this time, that isn't the target
>area.
>>    "Document" is defined as being able to objectively date as
>having been in
>>use in the area defined as "Frontier".  By objectively, I mean by
>>contemporary records or a chain of evidence.  The assignment of
>dates, for
>>example Madison Grant's "ca 1820-1840" does NOT count, unless
>supported by
>>other available information (an example being the bag he shows on pp
>74-75
>>of KRHP).  If you can come up with a bag that went with the supply
>trains
>>to Rendezvous, great!  But the bag used by some famous mountain man
>in the
>>late 1850s isn't what we are looking for.
>>    The bag must be published or accessible to the public.  The
>folks on the
>>list must have some way of accessing the bag, to examine and evaluate
>it
>>for their own purposes.  Be prepared to furnish supporting
>documentation.
>>
>>    Prize?  Immortal fame isn't enough?  How about a rum horn and
>horn cup?
>>Copied after the canteen shown on p 142  and the bottom cup on p 144
>of
>>"The Powder Horn and its Architecture".
>>    Let's run this for a week or so and see what comes out of the
>woodwork.
>>Judge's decisions are final.  Hawk, John Kramer-are you guys willing
>to
>>help me judge this?
>>
>>Let the hunt begin!
>>LongWalker c. du B.
>>
>>
>
>
>

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:05:59 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade gun!1750's to 1770's

darn right always looking for good ways to harden and temper---since I
run just about run out of sperm oil to quinch frizzens its a mess using
that case hardening stuff ---drop me the information offline---

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:07:36 -0700 "Jerry H. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
writes:
>MICHAL---iron tongue hear  if got a recipe that does wonders for case
>hardening . if you want it ill give it to you . it will take mild
>steel and
>make a case hard on you wont believe it goes deep into the metal but
>still
>leaves enough of the soft that its pliable and strong/       iron
>tongue
>
>Michael Pierce wrote:
>
>> concure with john totally---"QUALITY,QUALITY,QUALITY"  buy what you
>can
>> afford---My trade gun was made by pappy horn in 1974 and has a boska
>> barrel that is 44 " long(Its 28 gage and shoots a 535 round ball
>just
>> like my rifle) the lock(which is a charlieville) had the same
>problem
>> that john was talking about---a mushy spring---also had a problem
>with
>> the frizzen being soft---cased the frizzen and have never had a
>problem
>> with sparks since---have a extra frizzen that I carry in the
>shooting
>> bag---been toating it for many years and have never had the need to
>> change since i cased the one on the gun---we made a new spring for
>the
>> lock and i'ts not mushy any more---stought enough it takes some work
>to
>> cock--never misfires now---eats up the flints but never
>misfires---"its
>> very fast in the fall)  cant remember when it misfired--will wear
>the
>> flint down to the cock jaws before it needs replacing but i normally
>> replace it ever 20 or 30 shots---I like the black english
>flints---almost
>> opaque and like them sharp --hard spots in the flints bang off after
>a
>> few shots because of the heavy mainspring tension---
>>
>> The toutch hole size and location is important--- mine is extremely
>large
>> and will almost  put enough powder in the flash pan to fire if I
>close
>> the frizzen when I load it---don't stand to the left of me or you
>will
>> get flash burns.  I keep the lock cocks in good shape because of the
>size
>> of the toutch hole--yet the trigger pull is not bad---can drop the
>gun
>> when its cocked and it wont let the hammer fall---it is also fast
>enough
>> that you can turn the gun upside down and it will still fire with
>the
>> powder falling out of the pan.    I have a flash deflector that I
>put on
>> it when i am at matches because of the size of the toutch hole
>>
>> the barrel thickness is why I had Boska make me a barrel I didn't
>think
>> that the ones on the market that I saw were thick enough to be safe
>so I
>> had him add a .040 to the wall of the barrel and heavy up in the
>places
>> it needed to have the strength required--gun still weights less than
>8
>> pounds----no extra  on anything else-----shoots like a Rifle out to
>100
>> yds---with round ball--I use the rear screw and my fingers for a
>rear
>> sight---and normally can keep them in the black of a big bull target
>very
>>  consistantly.  I didn't like the 20 gage or larger because of the
>added
>> stock size except in the cutoff camp guns or buffilo runners---the
>stock
>> on my gun is good quality hard maple with the grain rinning with the
>> wrist and not sliceing the wrist---this helps to keep it from
>breaking
>> because of it's size-- the trigger guard is the only reinforcement
>in
>> this area---
>>
>> remember what john said "quality, quality,quality"  this is where
>you get
>> accuracy and dependibility---YOU CANT MAKE A SILK PURSE OUT OF A
>SOWS
>> EAR---BUY THE BEST YOU CAN AFFORD---ESPECIALLY THE BARREL AND THE
>> LOCK---can put them on a pine board and they will shoot good----
>poor
>> quality and you get poor dependibility and poor shooting---and you
>will
>> soon disharted in the sport and shooting----
>>
>> YMHOSANT
>>         =+=
>>       "Hawk"
>> Michael Pierce
>> 854 Glenfield Dr.
>> Palm Harbor, florida   34684
>> 1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
>>
>> On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 01:56:19 -0500 John Kramer
><[e-mail]>
>> writes:
>> >One thing about shooting a Charleville is the lock springs
>guarantee
>> >sparks no
>> >matter if your rock is sharp, if you've got almost any hunk of
>flint
>> >clamped in
>> >the cock jaws you are going to get sparks.  I've always felt the
>> >springs on
>> >reproduction Brown Bess's were too soft and slow, they still seem
>to
>> >work
>> >pretty well.
>> >
>> >The main problem with many Trade Guns is the locks have soft slow
>> >springs;
>> >they
>> >need a real sharp flint.  Some of the frizzens aren't tempered well
>> >and some
>> >makers drill the flash hole too close to the bottom of the pan, or
>too
>> >far
>> >forward or rear of center.  I've seen some really thin barrels that
>> >concerned
>> >me.  Stocks are light (often poorly grained) and tend to break at
>the
>> >wrist.
>> >Too many "first, and sometimes only, guns" were trade guns because
>> >there were
>> >some cheap kits some years back.
>> >
>> >Hawk has it right about going for quality, and the Italian made
>> >Charleville's
>> >are bullet proof, my horse thrice tried to bend mine around a tree,
>> >took a few
>> >hours of careful smithing on a rock with an axe butt to straighten
>the
>> >ramrod
>> >but she still shoots straight, a few cracks in the fore stock, a
>> >little
>> >missing
>> >wood.  Been abusing it since 1978.  I tripped a hand forged beaver
>> >trap
>> >with it
>> >a couple of times to leave a few more period marks on the butt
>stock.
>> >
>> >
>> >Many years ago I owned incredible Mulford, Bivens, Smola and other
>> >fine makers
>> >arms.  Every time I took one in the field I was too concerned about
>> >injuring
>> >the fine finish carving, inlay and detail.  then I got my
>Charleville.
>> > First
>> >thing I did was throw it on the ground, throw rocks at it, left it
>out
>> >in the
>> >rain and personally wet it down in the hot sun to rust the barrel
>and
>> >lock,
>> >stomped on it, beat it with chains,  and never worried about
>hurting
>> >its fine
>> >finish again.  I rub it down with my Improver once in a while and
>it
>> >is
>> >beautiful.  The iron is nearly black and the wood rich.  I've had
>> >several
>> >"experts" at gun shows swear it's an original.
>> >
>> >I also carry a (20 to the pound) buffalo runner cut down from an
>old
>> >Green
>> >River Forge kit and like it a lot.  Ain't nothing left to break
>off.
>> >Plenty of
>> >iron in the barrel.  The best parts then available.
>> >
>> >The fine tuned crisp springs in a quality rifle/fowler lock don't
>> >exist in
>> >muskets.  Too spend a lot of time fine tuning a musket lock seems a
>> >little
>> >odd,
>> >its not what a musket was.  I prefer stouter  springs on mine.
>> >
>> >The kit the blanket gun was made from cost $325 in 1981.  The stock
>> >was
>> >roughed
>> >out and not even close to inletted or drilled for the ramrod.
>Hated
>> >to whack
>> >off so much nice wood.  Traded a bunch of prime plunder to Mike
>Wilson
>> >to
>> >build
>> >it for me.  A blanket gun takes as much to build as a full length
>> >trade gun.
>> >
>> >Buy the best you can afford and look around a little first.  You'll
>> >soon
>> >develop an eye for quality.
>> >
>> >John...
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >At 09:12 PM 7/28/98 -0700, you wrote:
>> >>David'
>> >>
>> >>You might consider a Tulle' fusil in 20 ga. I have had one I put
>> >>together a few years ago and I love it. It is light and handy and
>> >quit
>> >>accurate with a patched ball. It shoots shoot very well with
>simple
>> >>wadding. The best part is that it goes way back to the mid 1700's
>and
>> >is
>> >>not out of place in the early 1800's.
>> >>
>> >>I also have a Charlleville Musket that I got somewhere back in the
>> >late
>> >>70's or early 80's and only went to the Tulle' cause the ammo is
>> >lighter
>> >>for the Tulle' with it being 20 ga. and the Charlleville being 14
>ga.
>> >>The Charlleville shot every bit as good as the Tulle' if not a
>> >smidgen
>> >>better and I had a heck of a lot of fun shooting with the rifle
>boys
>> >>around WA. Give em a good scare whenever that Charlleville came
>out
>> >of
>> >>its case, I did!
>> >>
>> >>I have some friends that carry Northwest trade guns and they have
>> >their
>> >>share of problems with them. That's why they usually don't go for
>all
>> >>that much money. Be real careful if that is what you are looking
>to
>> >buy.
>> >>My best advice to anyone getting ready to invest some money in a
>gun
>> >is
>> >>get as much quality as you can afford and quality will start at
>well
>> >>over $500 (in my opinion). That is for a quality kit that isn't
>too
>> >hard
>> >>to put together.
>> >>
>> >>Well that is my bit of advice. Let us know what you come up with.
>> >Good
>> >>luck.
>> >>
>> >>I remain
>> >>YMOS
>> >>Capt. Lahti
>> >>
>> >Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
>> >John Kramer  <[e-mail]>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>_____________________________________________________________________
>> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
>> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>
>
>
>

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:53:50 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest

jim we need someone who has a way to post pictures if we get them----
or files----
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:28:30 -0500 Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Washtahay-
>    We have our judges-John Kramer, Hawk, and myself (LongWalker
>c. du B).
>The prize pool has grown to a rum horn, horn cup, a pre-1840 large
>cent,
>and a hand made turkey call.  Here are the rules:
>    We want to locate an original hunting pouch that we can
>document as having
>been in use on the frontier in the years 1825 to 1835, with the target
>date
>of 1830.  Here are the criteria the bag must meet:
>    "Frontier" is defined as Rocky Mountains, Santa Fe trade,
>Texas, or the
>Missouri River trade.  We should probably include bags in use in the
>St
>Louis area and west within Missouri.  While I would love to hear about
>the
>bags in use in the North during this time, that isn't the target area.
>
>    "Document" is defined as being able to objectively date as
>having been in
>use in the area defined as "Frontier".  By objectively, I mean by
>contemporary records or a chain of evidence.  The assignment of dates,
>for
>example Madison Grant's "ca 1820-1840" does NOT count, unless
>supported by
>other available information (an example being the bag he shows on pp
>74-75
>of KRHP).  If you can come up with a bag that went with the supply
>trains
>to Rendezvous, great!  But the bag used by some famous mountain man in
>the
>late 1850s isn't what we are looking for.
>    The bag must be published or accessible to the public.  The
>folks on the
>list must have some way of accessing the bag, to examine and evaluate
>it
>for their own purposes.  Be prepared to furnish supporting
>documentation.
>    If you find the bag, submit the information to me directly, or
>to the
>list.  If you get in under the deadline with preliminary information
>and it
>takes a while for the judges' committee to reach a decision, you still
>win
>if we can agree the bag meets the criteria.
>    Deadline for submission is 10 August 1998.
>
>Let the hunt begin!
>
>LongWalker c. du B., tilter at windmills, and occasional champion of
>lost
>causes
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 00:53:48 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest

thanks for your treasure---this is getting to be a good contest----hell
of a lot of good stuff on line---
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:54:41 -0700 "Jerry H. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
writes:
>ill through in a steel buckle of my choice on the blanket.
>iron tongue
>
>Jim Colburn wrote:
>
>> Washtahay-
>>         OK folks.  We've had a lot of palaver over one small feature
>of one bag
>> the last few days.  So lets get down to brass tacks on this.  I want
>to
>> locate an original hunting pouch that we can document as having been
>in use
>> on the frontier in the years 1825 to 1835, with the target date of
>1830.
>> Here are the criteria the bag must meet:
>>         "Frontier" is defined as Rocky Mountains, Santa Fe trade,
>Texas, or the
>> Missouri River trade.  We should probably include bags in use in the
>St
>> Louis area and west within Missouri.  While I would love to hear
>about the
>> bags in use in the North during this time, that isn't the target
>area.
>>         "Document" is defined as being able to objectively date as
>having been in
>> use in the area defined as "Frontier".  By objectively, I mean by
>> contemporary records or a chain of evidence.  The assignment of
>dates, for
>> example Madison Grant's "ca 1820-1840" does NOT count, unless
>supported by
>> other available information (an example being the bag he shows on pp
>74-75
>> of KRHP).  If you can come up with a bag that went with the supply
>trains
>> to Rendezvous, great!  But the bag used by some famous mountain man
>in the
>> late 1850s isn't what we are looking for.
>>         The bag must be published or accessible to the public.  The
>folks on the
>> list must have some way of accessing the bag, to examine and
>evaluate it
>> for their own purposes.  Be prepared to furnish supporting
>documentation.
>>
>>         Prize?  Immortal fame isn't enough?  How about a rum horn
>and horn cup?
>> Copied after the canteen shown on p 142  and the bottom cup on p 144
>of
>> "The Powder Horn and its Architecture".
>>         Let's run this for a week or so and see what comes out of
>the woodwork.
>> Judge's decisions are final.  Hawk, John Kramer-are you guys willing
>to
>> help me judge this?
>>
>> Let the hunt begin!
>> LongWalker c. du B.
>
>
>
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 00:42:03 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest

Hawk,

Dean's tight on web space, send them to me.  jpg's are easiest I'll put
them up
on some extra web space I have and post the address for viewing.

John...


At 11:48 PM 7/29/98 -0400, you wrote:
>dont know of a end date on the contest yet but have some original pouches
>that I am goint to have photographed if you have a way to post----I can
>get them to bmp files---
>
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 "Hawk"
>Michael Pierce
>854 Glenfield Dr.
>Palm Harbor, florida=A0=A0 34684
>1-[phone]=A0=A0=A0=A0 E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
>
>On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:00:09 -0400 [e-mail] (Addison O. Miller)
>writes:
>>Next month I am going to the Museum of the Fur Trade.=A0 If there is a
>>shooters pouch there, rest assured I will take MANY pictures of it,=20
>>and make
>>them available on my WWW page and send you all the address so you can=20
>>DL any
>>pix of it you would like.=A0 Hope this will help and you all can wait=20
>>that long...
>>
>>Addison Miller
>>
>>>Washtahay-
>>> OK folks.=A0 We've had a lot of palaver over one small feature=20
>>of one bag
>>>the last few days.=A0 So lets get down to brass tacks on this.=A0 I want=
=20
>>to
>>>locate an original hunting pouch that we can document as having been=20
>>in use
>>>on the frontier in the years 1825 to 1835, with the target date of=20
>>1830.
>>>Here are the criteria the bag must meet:
>>> "Frontier" is defined as Rocky Mountains, Santa Fe trade,=20
>>Texas, or the
>>>Missouri River trade.=A0 We should probably include bags in use in the=20
>>St
>>>Louis area and west within Missouri.=A0 While I would love to hear=20
>>about the
>>>bags in use in the North during this time, that isn't the target=20
>>area.=A0=20
>>> "Document" is defined as being able to objectively date as=20
>>having been in
>>>use in the area defined as "Frontier".=A0 By objectively, I mean by
>>>contemporary records or a chain of evidence.=A0 The assignment of=20
>>dates, for
>>>example Madison Grant's "ca 1820-1840" does NOT count, unless=20
>>supported by
>>>other available information (an example being the bag he shows on pp=20
>>74-75
>>>of KRHP).=A0 If you can come up with a bag that went with the supply=20
>>trains
>>>to Rendezvous, great!=A0 But the bag used by some famous mountain man=20
>>in the
>>>late 1850s isn't what we are looking for.
>>> The bag must be published or accessible to the public.=A0 The=20
>>folks on the
>>>list must have some way of accessing the bag, to examine and evaluate=20
>>it
>>>for their own purposes.=A0 Be prepared to furnish supporting=20
>>documentation.=A0=20
>>>
>>> Prize?=A0 Immortal fame isn't enough?=A0 How about a rum horn and=20
>>horn cup?
>>>Copied after the canteen shown on p 142=A0 and the bottom cup on p 144=20
>>of
>>>"The Powder Horn and its Architecture".=A0=20
>>> Let's run this for a week or so and see what comes out of the=20
>>woodwork.
>>>Judge's decisions are final.=A0 Hawk, John Kramer-are you guys willing=20
>>to
>>>help me judge this?
>>>
>>>Let the hunt begin!
>>>LongWalker c. du B.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at
<http://www.juno.com/>http://www.juno.com
>Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:05:22 +0000
From: "Tommy Edge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade gun!1750's to 1770's

> Date:          Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:07:36 -0700
> From:          "Jerry H. Wheeler" <[e-mail]>
> To:            [e-mail]
> Subject:       Re: MtMan-List: Trade gun!1750's to 1770's
> Reply-to:      [e-mail]

> MICHAL---iron tongue hear  if got a recipe that does wonders for
> case hardening . if you want it ill give it to you . it will
> take mild steel and make a case hard on you wont believe it goes
> deep into the metal but still leaves enough of the soft that its
> pliable and strong/       iron tongue


I would like to have the recipe

Thank You   Tommy Edge

   I make Knives.
http://www.nex.net/tedge/

A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:24:30 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade gun!1750's to 1770's

Why not just post the recipe?  Several of us are always interested in good=
 old
receipts.

John...



At 09:07 PM 7/29/98 -0700, you wrote:
>MICHAL---iron tongue hear=A0 if got a recipe that does wonders for case
>hardening . if you want it ill give it to you . it will take mild steel and
>make a case hard on you wont believe it goes deep into the metal but still
>leaves enough of the soft that its pliable and strong/=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
 iron tongue
>

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 00:05:57 -0700
From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade gun!1750's to 1770's

Hello Iron Tongue,

I expect there would be a lot of interest in having you post your case
hardening recipe.  I would sure like to learn it, and I just bet you have a
couple of other good ideas about smithing and metals that we would all love to
read about.

I need all the coaching I can get on this, I have a great interest but almost
no experience (apart from working in a specialty steel foundry in my youth and
reading smithing books like Weyger's).  I would love to learn how to replace
the case hardening on lock parts and I confess to having a couple of those darn
out of period revolvers that will need color case hardening on the frames after
I fix them.

Your servant,

Gary Bell, aka Heron

Jerry H. Wheeler wrote:

> MICHAL---iron tongue hear  if got a recipe that does wonders for case
> hardening . if you want it ill give it to you . it will take mild steel and
> make a case hard on you wont believe it goes deep into the metal but still
> leaves enough of the soft that its pliable and strong/       iron tongue

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:32:12 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade gun!1750's to 1770's

In a message dated 98-07-29 00:14:04 EDT, you write:

<< David'

 You might consider a Tulle' fusil in 20 ga. I have had one I put
 together a few years ago and I love it. It is light and handy and quit
 accurate with a patched ball. It shoots shoot very well with simple
 wadding. The best part is that it goes way back to the mid 1700's and is
 not out of place in the early 1800's.
  >>
CenterMark, Inc. P.O. Box 575, Fredonia, NY 14063 sell a really nice Tulle for
$550 in kit form (95% inletted), for $675 inletted assembled in the white for
you to finish and for $790 finished.  They will let you spec the trigger pull.
And if you want curley maple add $45 (#2) oand for Cherry or Walnut add $75.

I was just fondling one at a Camp/Shoot at the Land Of The Senicas here in NY.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:53:19 -0400
From: "Pearce Gardner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: wantabee wants to make loin cloth

I figure in order to start doing this mountain man thing, the first article
of clothing should be a loin cloth.  what does everyone recommend, big
question, what size and weight of cloth, and what kind of belt or waist
strap to hold it on with?  I figure my persona is 1750's Virginia mountain
longhunter.  Is this persona acceptable to AMA?  Any help and or advice in
this matter is greatly appreciated.

Thanks for all your help in this matter.

Gardner

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:05:50 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: brain tan pants

I concur that a well done brain tan is the best for making pants, etc.
However, it is VERY expensive if you are not tanning it yourself.  I use it in
my quillwork but I have found a good alternative for my native american
dresses.  I purchase pure white deer hides and make the garment with the rough
side out.  After that I soak it in a solution of tea and coffee.  This gives
it the color of a very tan creamy brain tan.  The buckskin is, also, very
soft. Actually  it as soft as some of the  poorly done brain tan that I have
felt.  I can do a dress for around $100.  Pants would probably run less.  Most
folks comment on how pretty the brain tan dress looks.

Red Hawk

[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:19:46 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going to your first camp

In a message dated 98-07-29 14:31:44 EDT, Kirk Mill wrote:

<< best way to get the definitive answer would be to post it.
 What would you folks consider to be the minimum outfit (clothing, shelter,
 cookware, etc.) that a pilgrim like myself needs for a weekend rendezvous
 that advertises as "pre-1840's"? >>

Well you will get a lot of answers from the list but probably not a
"definitive" one as we all travel the path our own way.  To help many
interested people get in to this hobby/obsession our club maintains a clothing
box so we can lend out to a beginner a shirt a pair of drop front pants (no
blue jean material) and moc's if they do not want to go bare foot. (If you
tell us all where you are from we may be able to find you just such a
beginners box to help you out). That will make it thru a weekender and even a
week long event if you have a creek to rinse the shirt out once or twice
(unless you sleep down wind).  For eating/cooking a large tin cup for drinking
and boiling up soups etc., a knife and spoon (if you have a knife you can do
without a fork) and a bowl or tin plate.  If you want to carry the added
weight a small fry pan (iron) may be all you need to cook with.  Green sticks
can be used for holding meat to roast over the fire.  A covered (burlap or
natural cotton bags) water bottle/jug or canteen is needed.  And if you are
not going to share a fire with someone many events will require you to have a
fire bucket full of water near your fire.  But if you are just starting find a
smiling face tell them you are new to the hobby and ask if you could share
their cook fire.   Most will share not just their fire but their food their
jug and their friendship.

For sleeping get a natural canvas/heavy muslin drop cloth at a paint store.
Cut some wood stakes (at home as many events do not allow cutting live wood)
and stake three corners down and with another short (3') stick and a piece of
rope (to attach the rope wrap a little of the drop cloth around a small rock
and loop the rope around the rock) prop up the 4th corner so you can get in
out of the weather.  Aim the open end to the east or away from the prevailing
winds.  You will not even have to water proof the cloth as it will shed most
all of the rain accept really heavy down pours.  Then all you need is one or
two wool blankets depending on the weather.  I have many friends that started
in this type of camp and never changed and I have a lot of friends that
started in tipees or wall tents and have ended up back in diamond flys or just
bed rolls.  I have a wall tent with a fly for large events, a wedge for
weekenders and a haversak with a 10x10 piece of canvas and two blankets for
the walking events.  Each is comfortable and each is my personna.

I strongly recommend that you do not invest a lot of money at you first few
events until you have had a chance to look and learn and decide who you want
to be when you event.  Camps vary in cost dependent on the number of people in
the camp, the era they portray and the social status they portray. And you do
not need a lot of cloths to be correct, most frontersmen/mountain men did not
change their shirt every day so we don't have to either. So don't invest a lot
of money prior to finding your persona, do the research to do it right and you
will save money and have more pride in your camp and more fun for yourself.

<I see talk of bringing coolers to voo. Now I am pretty sure that an AMM rondy
would forbid this, but what about an NMLRA rondy?>

NMLRA and many camps realize that as we can not have hundreds of people
huntinng and fishing out of season or in violation of local game laws that we
have to make provisions for food.  And as few booshways and their medical
staff want to deal with massive food poisoning the use of coolers is allowed
provided they do not show (keep them covered and out of sight).  In fact many
camps have daily ice delivery so people can keep their food safe.  Call ahead
and ask for prereg forms and rules and always feel free to ask anyone you call
anything if you are concerned about it.

<Gail Carbiener wrote:
    I have not gone to my first voo yet and am a bit apprehensive that I
will be out of date, style, etc>

Gail and Kirk both would like to come into this activity on a good pleasant
note.  If you were to let the list know where you are from I would bet you
would find someone on the list from your part of the country to get together
with and guide you thru your first experiances.  I know that if you are from
Western NY or Northern Pa and wanted to find a camp you could camp next to my
family and eat at our fire and ask every question you want.  We may not have
the answers but after several years of this we at least can help.  And I bet
if any newcomer wanted some help and advice we could hook them up with some so
they can get started.

Your Humble Servant

C.T. Oakes

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:40:05 -0400
From: "Pearce Gardner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: wantabee wants to make loin cloth

Before everyone jumps on me for my typo, I know it is not AMA, but rather
AMM, sorry.


>I figure in order to start doing this mountain man thing, the first article
>of clothing should be a loin cloth.  what does everyone recommend, big
>question, what size and weight of cloth, and what kind of belt or waist
>strap to hold it on with?  I figure my persona is 1750's Virginia mountain
>longhunter.  Is this persona acceptable to AMA? (I mean AMM, sorry)   Any
help and or advice in
>this matter is greatly appreciated.
>
>Thanks for all your help in this matter.
>
>Gardner
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:44:16 -0400
From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Going to your first camp

I want to thank everyone for there advice. Looks like I'm pretty close to
being set once I get this pair of pants finished that I am making from some
hides I tanned (alum, not braintan. maybe next time). I am hoping that I
have enough hide left over to make a pair of mocs. I am shooting to go to
the Fort Wallenpaupac Rendezvous Sept. 25-27 in Canadensis PA. Is anyone
planning to attend?

Kirk Mill

    -----Original Message-----
    From:    [e-mail] [SMTP:[e-mail]]
    Sent:    Thursday, July 30, 1998 10:20 AM
    To:    [e-mail]
    Subject:    Re: MtMan-List: Going to your first camp
     I know that if you are from Western NY or Northern Pa and wanted to
find a camp you could camp next to my family and eat at our fire and ask
every question you want.  We may not have the answers but after several
years of this we at least can help.  And I bet if any newcomer wanted some
help and advice we could hook them up with some so they can get started.
    Your Humble Servant
    C.T. Oakes

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #111
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