I have to agree with Mr. Branson. You think it's easy Beaverboy, try
building one. Even in "kit" form there's a hell of a lot of work left to be
done. Ever mortise a lock? Ever try to get a rear ramrod thimble just right?
Ever inlet a fancy butt plate? I'm just beginning to build and sell a few
guns, and I can see Branson is right. If you want to make even a modest
salary at it, you're going to have to charge a few thou per gun.
The good semi custom makers have whittled the process down to where they
have to survive on volume, and still the guns are pushing $1,000 or better
in finished form. Now you want to complain about having to wait? Well,
start looking for a small volume, self-employed builder and see what he says
about price.
Ya can't have it both ways.
Sincerely,
Two Crows
P.S. I'd like to hear an explanation of how to cone a touch hole from inside
the barrel.
Mike Branson wrote:
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 12:32:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Branson <d49_mbranson@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket
Normally I don't reply to the various articles I read in this web site as I
usually don't have time. this particular letter caused me to want to respond
to "Beaver Boy". Sir, I have been building custom rifles since 1972, I have
been wearing buckskins since 1973. I'm just retiring from a lifetime of
teaching high school history. I currently have 5 rifle orders on the bench
waiting to be completed. The oldest is 1.5 years old. I have already built
and delivered 7 rifles and 4 pistols all flintlock some with carving all
with engraving Since last spring. My prices are higher than ever. Yet I have
more orders than ever before. I used to build a rifle a month in the 1970s.
Now it takes 5 weeks of working 8-10 hours per day to build a rifle. I use
only a hand held electric drill. All other tools are hand tools. I build
them The old fashioned way. I have always felt that if you want a rifle that
looks like a gun from the 18-19 century then build it with 18th century
tools and techniques. It takes a long time to build guns in such a manner.
Especially if I want to charge even close to what it costs in labor and
materials for such a gun. I figure with a skill like mine I'm worth at least
$50-75 per hour. My plumber and car mechanic make more and have less skill
with tools. I can hand file a hinge with no gaps. My plumber can't do that.
At a cost of 50-75 per hour I end up usually charging between 3-5 thousand
dollars per rifle. Yes that sounds like a lot but it is not. Not when people
make 35-75 thousand per year and up. I know a factory worker in Ohio who
works with his wife and the two of them together make 140,000. per year.
Houses in Colorado sell on the average for 150-200 thousand dollars. New
trucks cost 30+ per vehicle. I hate to be critical but a 4500 dollar rifle
at modern wages is a lot less than a 20 dollar rifle was to a farmer in 1810
who only made 80 dollars per year. Everyone is free to shoot what ever they
want but if you want a fine rifle that shoots plumb center, and you want it
to look exactly like the ones actually carried by the trappers and you want
it to be ast dependable as thy're guns were then you should order a fine
hand made rifle and expect to wait anywhere from 12 -24 months for it. I
have been waiting on a custom barrel from a famous maker for 14 months now
and I know he like me, works every day all day clear up into the evening.
One should walk a mile in my moccasins before one throws stones. This most
recent rifle I'm finishing this week I worked on for the last 2 evenings
clear until 9:30pm on + all day. have a good day.
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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 16:26:10 EST
From: HikingOnThru@cs.com
Subject: MtMan-List: WAS: Trade Musket NOW Tulle style guns
The English Trade guns you refer to will look like a tulle. That was done on
purpose b/c the natives trusted that style of gun. Hey, when in business, go
with what works!
- -C.Kent
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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 16:28:54 EST
From: ThisOldFox@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket
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>Normally I don't reply to the various articles I read in this web site as I
usually don't have time. this particular >letter caused me to want to respond
to "Beaver Boy".
>Now it takes 5 weeks of working 8-10 hours per day to build a rifle. I use
only a hand held electric drill. All >other tools are hand tools. I build
them The old fashioned way.
>One should walk a mile in my moccasins before one throws stones.
Mike,
I'm glad you responded. Some folks are bigger in the opinion area than
education area.
Everyone thinks that these gunmakers have big factories with lots of
employees and they make gross overgeneralizations. You have well stated what
it takes to make a scratch gun.
Matt and Toni from TVM are good friends of mine. They work out of a 2 car
garage, the front half being the store and the back half being the shop.
They have 2 builders, a filer, and a finisher. Every one of their guns
starts with a chunk of wood. Matt makes all the stocks....they don't use
precarved ones. They chisel away at wood like everyone else. Each gun is
made to the customers specs. You can choose the LOP and drop, what
components you want on the gun, type of finish, etc. They work 12 hours
days, and make over 600 guns a year, that's about 3 guns per day for a 5 day
work week. When you consider the time required to build a gun and raw parts
running from $500-$700 per gun, their guns, beginning priced at $800, are one
of the best bargains out there............and by folks who are working their
butts off to make a living.
Dave Kanger
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">>Normally I don't reply to the various articles I read in this web site as I usually don't have time. this particular >letter caused me to want to respond to "Beaver Boy". <BR>
>Now it takes 5 weeks of working 8-10 hours per day to build a rifle. I use only a hand held electric drill. All >other tools are hand tools. I build them The old fashioned way. <BR>
>One should walk a mile in my moccasins before one throws stones. <BR>
<BR>
Mike,<BR>
I'm glad you responded. Some folks are bigger in the opinion area than education area.<BR>
Everyone thinks that these gunmakers have big factories with lots of employees and they make gross overgeneralizations. You have well stated what it takes to make a scratch gun.<BR>
<BR>
Matt and Toni from TVM are good friends of mine. They work out of a 2 car garage, the front half being the store and the back half being the shop. They have 2 builders, a filer, and a finisher. Every one of their guns starts with a chunk of wood. Matt makes all the stocks....they don't use precarved ones. They chisel away at wood like everyone else. Each gun is made to the customers specs. You can choose the LOP and drop, what components you want on the gun, type of finish, etc. They work 12 hours days, and make over 600 guns a year, that's about 3 guns per day for a 5 day work week. When you consider the time required to build a gun and raw parts running from $500-$700 per gun, their guns, beginning priced at $800, are one of the best bargains out there............and by folks who are working their butts off to make a living.<BR>
<BR>
Dave Kanger</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 16:32:10 EST
From: HikingOnThru@cs.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket
A comment was made from someone about TVM and touchhole liners vs. no liner..
This was a reply.
<< Touch hole liners- can't comment on that BUT are you
complaining that your barrel isn't hand forged? >>
TVM will use whatever barrel you are dying to have on your gun, but their
barrels are handforged - at least that is what Toni says to me.
Guns are made on first-come first-serve basis. I paid mine off
early...didn't matter.
Offered to pay extra - didn't matter. Toni says she and Matt just will not
let a gun go that they are not satisfied with. Guess that makes sense if you
stand by your product like they do - have it right going out and that makes
for little in the returns dept.
I am getting a Tulle from them. Cost with shipping and extra 2" barrel
length...$830.
Wait. 11 months and change. Worth it? From what I have seen of every other
TVM gun, I am betting on it.
- -C.Kent
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 15:37:11 -0600
From: "Frank Fusco" <Rifleman1776@centurytel.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: gun waiting
Beaverboy said,
<12 month's is too long to wait for anything>
Not from a good custom gun builder who is not in the business full-time.
Some guys build only a couple a year and spend the rest of their time
enjoying life.
But from a factory like TVM, that definately is excessive by about
eleven months.
Its your right to not like vent liners but as to their being
"unhistorical" there were a lot of guns from Europe and built here by
immigrants that utilized liners, often of platinum or gold to prevent
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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 13:54:28 -0600
From: windwalker <windwalker@fastmail.fm>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaverboy and the long wait
On Thursday 07 November 2002 03:23 pm, David Brown wrote:
> I have to agree with Mr. Branson. You think it's easy Beaverboy, try
> building one. Even in "kit" form there's a hell of a lot of work left t=
o be
> done. Ever mortise a lock? Ever try to get a rear ramrod thimble just
> right? Ever inlet a fancy butt plate? I'm just beginning to build and s=
ell
> a few guns, and I can see Branson is right. If you want to make even a
> modest salary at it, you're going to have to charge a few thou per gun.
>
> The good semi custom makers have whittled the process down to where the=
y
> have to survive on volume, and still the guns are pushing $1,000 or bet=
ter
> in finished form. Now you want to complain about having to wait? Well,
> start looking for a small volume, self-employed builder and see what he
> says about price.
>
> Ya can't have it both ways.
>
>
In the eary days of ML 50,s 60,s.. A One year wait was nothing..
Cost of $2000 from Premium makers was the norm.
Even getting a Bill Large Barrel could have a wait of 6-8 months
And Bills prices were based on his whim for the day..
{I know I worked for him}
With the advent of popularity of Turner Kirklands "kit" guns prices star=
ted=20
to drop.
Is a Premier Makes gun Worth say $2800 and 12 month wait?? Hell Yes!
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 21:06:32 EST
From: Wahkahchim@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket
<PRE>What's the TVM website?
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 19:11:58 -0700
From: Les Chaffin <chaflesl@onewest.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket
the site is http://www.avsia.com/tvm/garner.htm
Wahkahchim@aol.com wrote:
><PRE>What's the TVM website?
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>
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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 21:23:11 EST
From: SWcushing@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canoe Gun
In a message dated 11/6/02 11:36:51 AM, beaverboy@sofast.net writes:
<< A friend of mine recently found a length of trade gun barrel along
the banks of the Teton River here in Montana >>
Beaverboy..... that sounds like the one Walt Foster showed me a while back in
Billings... was that the one you saw??? I thought it was pretty darn neat too!
Magpie
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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 21:17:38 -0700
From: "Clay J. Landry" <landry@rangeweb.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Socks
In the achieves of this list should be several posts that list quite a bit
of documentation of trappers using socks-If I remember correctly the posts
are under the title "socks and Mocs"
Clay Landry
Moorhead MT
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Les Chaffin <chaflesl@onewest.net>
To: Mountain Man List <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 11:25 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Socks
> I am making a pair of new mocs and was wondering if the trappers wore
> sock? I have not read anything that has said. What do you think?
>
> Les Chaffin
> Green River, Wy
>
>
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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 21:33:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Branson <d49_mbranson@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Socks
- --0-1797134111-1036733639=:4441
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Concerning the comments about shooters and custom gun orders. Yes, the NMLRA membership is staying static which is good it means the organization is growing. Several years ago the NMLRA determined that the average length of time to stay a member was about 5-7 years. Which means every year some folks get bored and change hobbies. Which also means that every year new folks start joining and want to own a rifle. If the membership is static then we are gaining as many as we are losing. A lot of my customers are not members of any black powder organization. They are just gun collectors who collect antique guns, or they are folks who decided they wanted to own a flintlock long rifle. As far as the comments about how long it takes to build a fine hand made rifle. I can't speak for others. I work at it pretty hard and I don't have any employees. Just me, I do all the lock filing, polishing, inletting shaping and finish work. I personally feel that 11-12 months to wait on a rifle from a single maker like myself or from TVM is a good deal. If I attended all the shows TVM goes to and took orders I would be overwhelmed with work. I 'm very happy to keep the small number of orders I now have. I know another builder in Ohio who would prefer to go un-named who builds one rifle per month. I can build one about every 4-5 weeks. I think that is about the norm. I'm sure if I had a set up like some of the spanish shotgun makers like A&A then I could turn out guns faster. But I like things the way they are. I don't advertize but you might take a look at the CLA (Contemporary Long Rifle Association) Website. There are some mighty fine guns for sale there from some very good builders.
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<P>
<P> Concerning the comments about shooters and custom gun orders. Yes, the NMLRA membership is staying static which is good it means the organization is growing. Several years ago the NMLRA determined that the average length of time to stay a member was about 5-7 years. Which means every year some folks get bored and change hobbies. Which also means that every year new folks start joining and want to own a rifle. If the membership is static then we are gaining as many as we are losing. A lot of my customers are not members of any black powder organization. They are just gun collectors who collect antique guns, or they are folks who decided they wanted to own a flintlock long rifle. As far as the comments about how long it takes to build a fine hand made rifle. I can't speak for others. I work at it pretty hard and I don't have any employees. Just me, I do all the lock filing, polishing, inletting shaping and finish work. I personally feel that 11-12 months to wait on a rifle from a single maker like myself or from TVM is a good deal. If I attended all the shows TVM goes to and took orders I would be overwhelmed with work. I 'm very happy to keep the small number of orders I now have. I know another builder in Ohio who would prefer to go un-named who builds one rifle per month. I can build one about every 4-5 weeks. I think that is about the norm. I'm sure if I had a set up like some of the spanish shotgun makers like A&A then I could turn out guns faster. But I like things the way they are. I don't advertize but you might take a look at the CLA (Contemporary Long Rifle Association) Website. There are some mighty fine guns for sale there from some very good builders. </P><p><br><hr size=1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 08:32:57 -0500 (EST)
From: TheGreyWolfe@webtv.net (The Grey Wolfe)
Subject: MtMan-List: Tip's for Priming the Pan
I don't shoot my flintlock very often (not in over a year to my shame!!)
as all my friend`s shoot capper's ! There was some good advice a year or
so back in regards to priming I tried to find in Archive but can not
access after Mar 2000! (Darn Webtv!) The jist of the tip was to prim the
pan fuller on one side but I can't now remember was it fuller toward the
touch hole or away? Can any one help ?
Your Most Humble Servant,
M.A.Smith Esq.
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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 09:18:49 EST
From: CTOAKES@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tip's for Priming the Pan
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In a message dated 11/8/02 8:34:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
TheGreyWolfe@webtv.net writes:
> fuller toward the
>
Keep the prime away from the touch hole so you do not fill the touch hole and
then have it burn like a wick (which causes delays in ignition). You want
the primer to ignite and flash a ball of fire threw the touch hole to ignite
the main charge.
And shame on you for bowing to peer pressure and shooting only your cap gun.
Y.M.O.S.
C.T. Oakes
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 11/8/02 8:34:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, TheGreyWolfe@webtv.net writes:
<BR>Keep the prime away from the touch hole so you do not fill the touch hole and then have it burn like a wick (which causes delays in ignition). You want the primer to ignite and flash a ball of fire threw the touch hole to ignite the main charge.
<BR>
<BR>And shame on you for bowing to peer pressure and shooting only your cap gun.
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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 11:21:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Branson <d49_mbranson@yahoo.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: touch hole liners
- --0-360610173-1036783291=:96680
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Touch hole liners are very old. Platinum and gold were the material of choice for english gunmakers. The following gun makers were using them in both dbl flint shot guns and dueling pistols: John Manton, Joe Manton, Henry Nock. Several others also. Touch hole liners were being used before General Ashley ever took a keel boat up the Missouri.
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<P>Touch hole liners are very old. Platinum and gold were the material of choice for english gunmakers. The following gun makers were using them in both dbl flint shot guns and dueling pistols: John Manton, Joe Manton, Henry Nock. Several others also. Touch hole liners were being used before General Ashley ever took a keel boat up the Missouri.
<P> </P><p><br><hr size=1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
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Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 14:21:27 -0500
From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wood Canteens
the following comes from a website of the 1812 marines, now it is not intended that this is the final say-so in the canteen subject, but it is intended to help date thier use, I am still searching my archives for further information to support thier existance and use.
Frank Sablan
Midland,Texas
CANTEENS:
There is only one documentation for canteens for Marine use. This is listed in an order filled for Lt. McKnight for use of Marines on board the ship of war " Delaware: 363, wooden canteens with linen straps, 363 painted knapsacks with straps". This order also indicates Marines were supplied with
blankets out of their uniform allowance and that hammocks come from the Navy as issued to the whole ship's company. Marines' hammock numbers as well as mess numbers were the highest in the ship's company as they were issued hammock and assigned to mess last. The above order was filled at Philadelphia, PA on 7 December 1797. This order and this alone is the only indication of canteens for Marines is the documentation based on for the use of our canteens. They are painted red with Roman white letters USM. The straps are natural linen or cotton and not leather.
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Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 15:12:25 -0700
From: Allen Chronister <almont@mt.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canoe Gun
I've tried to post a photo to the discussion site all day but it never comes
through. Anybody know why? Can photos be posted to this site?
Allen Chronister
SWcushing@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 11/6/02 11:36:51 AM, beaverboy@sofast.net writes:
>
> << A friend of mine recently found a length of trade gun barrel along
>
> the banks of the Teton River here in Montana >>
>
> Beaverboy..... that sounds like the one Walt Foster showed me a while back in
> Billings... was that the one you saw??? I thought it was pretty darn neat too!
>
> Magpie
>
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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 17:29:16 EST
From: SWcushing@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canoe Gun
In a message dated 11/8/02 2:15:01 PM, almont@mt.net writes:
<< I've tried to post a photo to the discussion site all day but it never
comes
through. >>
Hi Allen,
Noy sure why....but don't think you can post a picture on Dean's site.
.....might have something to do with viruses. What I try to do is included
an address that anyone can cut and paste to or in "hypertext" ...just double
click, and it takes you there. I guess ya gotta have an isp that will let you
