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hist_text-digest       Wednesday, July 29 1998       Volume 01 : Number 108




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:16:52 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade gun!1750's to 1770's

concure with john totally---"QUALITY,QUALITY,QUALITY"  buy what you can
afford---My trade gun was made by pappy horn in 1974 and has a boska
barrel that is 44 " long(Its 28 gage and shoots a 535 round ball just
like my rifle) the lock(which is a charlieville) had the same problem
that john was talking about---a mushy spring---also had a problem with
the frizzen being soft---cased the frizzen and have never had a problem
with sparks since---have a extra frizzen that I carry in the shooting
bag---been toating it for many years and have never had the need to
change since i cased the one on the gun---we made a new spring for the
lock and i'ts not mushy any more---stought enough it takes some work to
cock--never misfires now---eats up the flints but never misfires---"its
very fast in the fall)  cant remember when it misfired--will wear the
flint down to the cock jaws before it needs replacing but i normally
replace it ever 20 or 30 shots---I like the black english flints---almost
opaque and like them sharp --hard spots in the flints bang off after a
few shots because of the heavy mainspring tension---

The toutch hole size and location is important--- mine is extremely large
and will almost  put enough powder in the flash pan to fire if I close
the frizzen when I load it---don't stand to the left of me or you will
get flash burns.  I keep the lock cocks in good shape because of the size
of the toutch hole--yet the trigger pull is not bad---can drop the gun
when its cocked and it wont let the hammer fall---it is also fast enough
that you can turn the gun upside down and it will still fire with the
powder falling out of the pan.    I have a flash deflector that I put on
it when i am at matches because of the size of the toutch hole

the barrel thickness is why I had Boska make me a barrel I didn't think
that the ones on the market that I saw were thick enough to be safe so I
had him add a .040 to the wall of the barrel and heavy up in the places
it needed to have the strength required--gun still weights less than 8
pounds----no extra  on anything else-----shoots like a Rifle out to 100
yds---with round ball--I use the rear screw and my fingers for a rear
sight---and normally can keep them in the black of a big bull target very
 consistantly.  I didn't like the 20 gage or larger because of the added
stock size except in the cutoff camp guns or buffilo runners---the stock
on my gun is good quality hard maple with the grain rinning with the
wrist and not sliceing the wrist---this helps to keep it from breaking
because of it's size-- the trigger guard is the only reinforcement in
this area---

remember what john said "quality, quality,quality"  this is where you get
accuracy and dependibility---YOU CANT MAKE A SILK PURSE OUT OF A SOWS
EAR---BUY THE BEST YOU CAN AFFORD---ESPECIALLY THE BARREL AND THE
LOCK---can put them on a pine board and they will shoot good---- poor
quality and you get poor dependibility and poor shooting---and you will
soon disharted in the sport and shooting----

YMHOSANT
        =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 01:56:19 -0500 John Kramer <[e-mail]>
writes:
>One thing about shooting a Charleville is the lock springs guarantee
>sparks no
>matter if your rock is sharp, if you've got almost any hunk of flint
>clamped in
>the cock jaws you are going to get sparks.  I've always felt the
>springs on
>reproduction Brown Bess's were too soft and slow, they still seem to
>work
>pretty well.
>
>The main problem with many Trade Guns is the locks have soft slow
>springs;
>they
>need a real sharp flint.  Some of the frizzens aren't tempered well
>and some
>makers drill the flash hole too close to the bottom of the pan, or too
>far
>forward or rear of center.  I've seen some really thin barrels that
>concerned
>me.  Stocks are light (often poorly grained) and tend to break at the
>wrist.
>Too many "first, and sometimes only, guns" were trade guns because
>there were
>some cheap kits some years back.
>
>Hawk has it right about going for quality, and the Italian made
>Charleville's
>are bullet proof, my horse thrice tried to bend mine around a tree,
>took a few
>hours of careful smithing on a rock with an axe butt to straighten the
>ramrod
>but she still shoots straight, a few cracks in the fore stock, a
>little
>missing
>wood.  Been abusing it since 1978.  I tripped a hand forged beaver
>trap
>with it
>a couple of times to leave a few more period marks on the butt stock.
>
>
>Many years ago I owned incredible Mulford, Bivens, Smola and other
>fine makers
>arms.  Every time I took one in the field I was too concerned about
>injuring
>the fine finish carving, inlay and detail.  then I got my Charleville.
> First
>thing I did was throw it on the ground, throw rocks at it, left it out
>in the
>rain and personally wet it down in the hot sun to rust the barrel and
>lock,
>stomped on it, beat it with chains,  and never worried about hurting
>its fine
>finish again.  I rub it down with my Improver once in a while and it
>is
>beautiful.  The iron is nearly black and the wood rich.  I've had
>several
>"experts" at gun shows swear it's an original.
>
>I also carry a (20 to the pound) buffalo runner cut down from an old
>Green
>River Forge kit and like it a lot.  Ain't nothing left to break off.
>Plenty of
>iron in the barrel.  The best parts then available.
>
>The fine tuned crisp springs in a quality rifle/fowler lock don't
>exist in
>muskets.  Too spend a lot of time fine tuning a musket lock seems a
>little
>odd,
>its not what a musket was.  I prefer stouter  springs on mine.
>
>The kit the blanket gun was made from cost $325 in 1981.  The stock
>was
>roughed
>out and not even close to inletted or drilled for the ramrod.  Hated
>to whack
>off so much nice wood.  Traded a bunch of prime plunder to Mike Wilson
>to
>build
>it for me.  A blanket gun takes as much to build as a full length
>trade gun.
>
>Buy the best you can afford and look around a little first.  You'll
>soon
>develop an eye for quality.
>
>John...
>
>
>
>
>At 09:12 PM 7/28/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>David'
>>
>>You might consider a Tulle' fusil in 20 ga. I have had one I put
>>together a few years ago and I love it. It is light and handy and
>quit
>>accurate with a patched ball. It shoots shoot very well with simple
>>wadding. The best part is that it goes way back to the mid 1700's and
>is
>>not out of place in the early 1800's.
>>
>>I also have a Charlleville Musket that I got somewhere back in the
>late
>>70's or early 80's and only went to the Tulle' cause the ammo is
>lighter
>>for the Tulle' with it being 20 ga. and the Charlleville being 14 ga.
>>The Charlleville shot every bit as good as the Tulle' if not a
>smidgen
>>better and I had a heck of a lot of fun shooting with the rifle boys
>>around WA. Give em a good scare whenever that Charlleville came out
>of
>>its case, I did!
>>
>>I have some friends that carry Northwest trade guns and they have
>their
>>share of problems with them. That's why they usually don't go for all
>>that much money. Be real careful if that is what you are looking to
>buy.
>>My best advice to anyone getting ready to invest some money in a gun
>is
>>get as much quality as you can afford and quality will start at well
>>over $500 (in my opinion). That is for a quality kit that isn't too
>hard
>>to put together.
>>
>>Well that is my bit of advice. Let us know what you come up with.
>Good
>>luck.
>>
>>I remain
>>YMOS
>>Capt. Lahti
>>
>Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
>John Kramer  <[e-mail]>
>
>

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:51:05 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: MtMan-List: trade guns 1750---

>From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
>
>a fine caywood gun was posted for sale on the mountain man chat---made
>by
>danny caywood ---do some dealing or call danny direct if you want a
>new
>one---his are quality guns---he also has good preassembeled kits---
>
>he doesn't have a computer and is not on the net--but can be contacted
>as
>follows--
>
>CAYWOOD GUN WORKS
>attn: Danny Caywood
>Rt 2   Box 427
>Berryville Arkansas  72616
>phone # [phone]
>
>give him a call or drop him a line and he will send you a catalog of
>what he has "tell him I told you to call"
>---he makes the total guns to include making the waxes for his
>castings---he has a english and a french fowler and also a tradegun
>with
>a draggon side plate---VERY HIGH QUALITY----
>and very period correct----his locks spark good and are dependable--good
springs
>
>     "Hawk"
>Michael Pierce
>854 Glenfield Dr.
>Palm Harbor, florida   34684
>1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
>
>On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:01:21 -0500 Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
>writes:
>>On 1998-07-27 [e-mail] said to [e-mail]
>>   >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
>>   >X-Priority: 3
>>   >X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162
>>   >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>   >Status:
>>   >Hey Jeff. Thanks for the directions for the bear claws and roach.
>>   >I've made 3 bear claws so far, but I don't think I have the
>>   >endurance to make 25-30 of them (by the 20th one I'll start to
>say
>>   >some bad things about those !@#$ claws (he, he, he) ). Just want
>>to
>>   >tell you that I'm not the sharpest tack in the box. The
>directions
>>   >said plainly to dip it in hot parifen and rub it into the wood,
>>   >right? well I did exactly what it said, I dipped it in some
>melted
>>   >wax (parafin)and rubbed it into the wood right away. smart? I
>>think
>>   >not. I burned every one of my fingers several times =( Anyway, I
>>   >mainly e-mailed you to ask you if you could help me with a
>>question
>>   >and post it on the list. How much would a new or used trade gun
>>   >cost? I've been looking for a musket for reenacting (1750-1770's)
>>   >and I've finaly decided a trade gun would be the best choice.
>>   >Please post this question on the list. I get the mt. man list so
>I
>>   >can just read the responces from there.
>>   >Thanks ahead of time
>>   >Your Warrior Wannabe,
>>   >David Fritsch
>>David, remember not all claws from one bear are in good enough
>>condition to
>>use for a necklace,when you get 5-10 of them done string em up with
>>bead
>>spacers,etc. and wear it proudly! And yes I've had my share of burned
>>fingers too!
>>  If you are into smelting lead,check out the wastewater plant
>>there(Dodgeville) Highgrade Galena at about 10 feet down from the
>>surface,and its getting hauled across the road and piled! I'm
>thinking
>>about
>>bringing a load home with me on Thursday. The ore samples at
>Pendarvis
>>ain't
>>even close,theyre lowgrade by comparison;)
>>  I think as far as the trade gun goes $350-900 is the range I've
>>seen,but
>>if I was looking for a new musket(French Charleville
>>
>>  m1777 would be nice) I would plan
>>on spending at least $600 to get a quality gun. $350 was a old kit
>>Hawkin I
>>think and had been left in a wet garage or something.
>>                      Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>SOUFLE,SOUFLE  La VIELLE
>>

_____________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:20:11 -0700
From: Gail C Martini-Peterson <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: My reason for being on this list

List Mates,

I am an odd one to be found on a Mountain Man list. I do not aspire to
be a Mountain...Woman. I am a retired teacher who writes for children,
yet to be published, but working hard.

For 32 years I have taught the history of the Northwest along with
English, reading, and lots of other stuff. Therefore, one of my
specialties is Western history. I have a picture book about the Lewis
and Clark Expedition called TO SEE THE WHALE.

When the Corp of Discovery was at Fort Clatsop for the winter, a whale
beached itself on the coast at Tillamook Head. A troop of 10 went to see
this Whale and to get as much blubber as possible to supplement their
diet of mainly elk and other meat, much of which was in several stages
of rot. YUCK!

Sacagawea desired to go along as she had come too far not to see the
ocean and this amazing, large fish. She was allowed. The story tells of
her visit to the whale.

I am currently working on research for a historical fiction picture book
concerning the early Fur Trappers with the Rocky Mountain Fur Co. My
first choice is Jed Smith, but I may also write one about James Clyman.
One or both may also turn into a Middle Grade Novel. Who knows.

As part of my research and to attempt to get the flavor of the times, I
joined this list. There may be some flavor here.

Just be aware that I am here, and that I can use all the help I can get.
I plan to use the incident when J.Smith got his head caught in the
bear's mouth. Not a good place to get stuck. He carried the scars for
the remainder of his life and wore his hair long as a result. Don't you
think 5-9 year olds will love that bit? And then there is the battle
with the "Rees" where he was stuck on the sand bar in the attack. This
may become part of the Mid-grade Novel. Lots of action to keep the kids
interested. Seems that Jedediah got stuck a lot. And he died very young
as a result of being stuck in the desert.

At one point I became interested in Jim Bridger, but he was such a liar
(teller of tall tales), who knows what is true?

If you are interested, I will keep you apprised of my progress.


Gail Martini-Peterson
[e-mail]

As a true optimist I always assume the worst will happen, then pray that
I wasn't too optimistic.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:00:09 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Addison O. Miller)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest

Next month I am going to the Museum of the Fur Trade.  If there is a
shooters pouch there, rest assured I will take MANY pictures of it, and make
them available on my WWW page and send you all the address so you can DL any
pix of it you would like.  Hope this will help and you all can wait that long...

Addison Miller

>Washtahay-
>    OK folks.  We've had a lot of palaver over one small feature of one bag
>the last few days.  So lets get down to brass tacks on this.  I want to
>locate an original hunting pouch that we can document as having been in use
>on the frontier in the years 1825 to 1835, with the target date of 1830.
>Here are the criteria the bag must meet:
>    "Frontier" is defined as Rocky Mountains, Santa Fe trade, Texas, or the
>Missouri River trade.  We should probably include bags in use in the St
>Louis area and west within Missouri.  While I would love to hear about the
>bags in use in the North during this time, that isn't the target area.
>    "Document" is defined as being able to objectively date as having been in
>use in the area defined as "Frontier".  By objectively, I mean by
>contemporary records or a chain of evidence.  The assignment of dates, for
>example Madison Grant's "ca 1820-1840" does NOT count, unless supported by
>other available information (an example being the bag he shows on pp 74-75
>of KRHP).  If you can come up with a bag that went with the supply trains
>to Rendezvous, great!  But the bag used by some famous mountain man in the
>late 1850s isn't what we are looking for.
>    The bag must be published or accessible to the public.  The folks on the
>list must have some way of accessing the bag, to examine and evaluate it
>for their own purposes.  Be prepared to furnish supporting documentation.
>
>    Prize?  Immortal fame isn't enough?  How about a rum horn and horn cup?
>Copied after the canteen shown on p 142  and the bottom cup on p 144 of
>"The Powder Horn and its Architecture".
>    Let's run this for a week or so and see what comes out of the woodwork.
>Judge's decisions are final.  Hawk, John Kramer-are you guys willing to
>help me judge this?
>
>Let the hunt begin!
>LongWalker c. du B.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:28:30 -0500
From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest

Washtahay-
    We have our judges-John Kramer, Hawk, and myself (LongWalker c. du B).
The prize pool has grown to a rum horn, horn cup, a pre-1840 large cent,
and a hand made turkey call.  Here are the rules:
    We want to locate an original hunting pouch that we can document as having
been in use on the frontier in the years 1825 to 1835, with the target date
of 1830.  Here are the criteria the bag must meet:
    "Frontier" is defined as Rocky Mountains, Santa Fe trade, Texas, or the
Missouri River trade.  We should probably include bags in use in the St
Louis area and west within Missouri.  While I would love to hear about the
bags in use in the North during this time, that isn't the target area.
    "Document" is defined as being able to objectively date as having been in
use in the area defined as "Frontier".  By objectively, I mean by
contemporary records or a chain of evidence.  The assignment of dates, for
example Madison Grant's "ca 1820-1840" does NOT count, unless supported by
other available information (an example being the bag he shows on pp 74-75
of KRHP).  If you can come up with a bag that went with the supply trains
to Rendezvous, great!  But the bag used by some famous mountain man in the
late 1850s isn't what we are looking for.
    The bag must be published or accessible to the public.  The folks on the
list must have some way of accessing the bag, to examine and evaluate it
for their own purposes.  Be prepared to furnish supporting documentation.
    If you find the bag, submit the information to me directly, or to the
list.  If you get in under the deadline with preliminary information and it
takes a while for the judges' committee to reach a decision, you still win
if we can agree the bag meets the criteria.
    Deadline for submission is 10 August 1998.

Let the hunt begin!

LongWalker c. du B., tilter at windmills, and occasional champion of lost
causes

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:02:35 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Addison O. Miller)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest

Again, I will scour the museum thoroughly for any information and
documentation that I can find, and post it when I get back.  Sorry, but that
won't be til the 24th of August. =20

Addison Miller

>Sure I'll help a worthy endeavor; and throw a pre-1840 large cent in the=
 prize
>pot.  I'm a little skeptical one is going to show up.  These sorts of=
 things
>tended to get used up until they rotted away.
>
>I'd give a period half dollar if someone could find a genuine pre-1840 pair=
 of
>leather pants all nicely documented to our area of interest.
>
>John...
>
>
>At 12:49 PM 7/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>Washtahay-
>> OK folks.=A0 We've had a lot of palaver over one small feature of one bag
>>the last few days.=A0 So lets get down to brass tacks on this.=A0 I want=
 to
>>locate an original hunting pouch that we can document as having been in=
 use
>>on the frontier in the years 1825 to 1835, with the target date of 1830.
>>Here are the criteria the bag must meet:
>> "Frontier" is defined as Rocky Mountains, Santa Fe trade, Texas, or the
>>Missouri River trade.=A0 We should probably include bags in use in the St
>>Louis area and west within Missouri.=A0 While I would love to hear about=
 the
>>bags in use in the North during this time, that isn't the target area.=A0=
=20
>> "Document" is defined as being able to objectively date as having been in
>>use in the area defined as "Frontier".=A0 By objectively, I mean by
>>contemporary records or a chain of evidence.=A0 The assignment of dates,=
 for
>>example Madison Grant's "ca 1820-1840" does NOT count, unless supported by
>>other available information (an example being the bag he shows on pp 74-75
>>of KRHP).=A0 If you can come up with a bag that went with the supply=
 trains
>>to Rendezvous, great!=A0 But the bag used by some famous mountain man in=
 the
>>late 1850s isn't what we are looking for.
>> The bag must be published or accessible to the public.=A0 The folks on=
 the
>>list must have some way of accessing the bag, to examine and evaluate it
>>for their own purposes.=A0 Be prepared to furnish supporting=
 documentation.=A0=20
>>
>> Prize?=A0 Immortal fame isn't enough?=A0 How about a rum horn and horn=
 cup?
>>Copied after the canteen shown on p 142=A0 and the bottom cup on p 144 of
>>"The Powder Horn and its Architecture".=A0=20
>> Let's run this for a week or so and see what comes out of the woodwork.
>>Judge's decisions are final.=A0 Hawk, John Kramer-are you guys willing to
>>help me judge this?
>>
>>Let the hunt begin!
>>LongWalker c. du B.
>>=20
>Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
>John Kramer  <[e-mail]>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:28:13 -0700
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: My reason for being on this list

Gail'
We are interested. Keep us informed of your progress and what you find.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti

Gail C Martini-Peterson wrote:

> List Mates,
>
> I am an odd one to be found on a Mountain Man list. I do not aspire to
> be a Mountain...Woman. I am a retired teacher who writes for children,
> yet to be published, but working hard.
>
> For 32 years I have taught the history of the Northwest along with
> English, reading, and lots of other stuff. Therefore, one of my
> specialties is Western history. I have a picture book about the Lewis
> and Clark Expedition called TO SEE THE WHALE.
>
> When the Corp of Discovery was at Fort Clatsop for the winter, a whale
> beached itself on the coast at Tillamook Head. A troop of 10 went to see
> this Whale and to get as much blubber as possible to supplement their
> diet of mainly elk and other meat, much of which was in several stages
> of rot. YUCK!
>
> Sacagawea desired to go along as she had come too far not to see the
> ocean and this amazing, large fish. She was allowed. The story tells of
> her visit to the whale.
>
> I am currently working on research for a historical fiction picture book
> concerning the early Fur Trappers with the Rocky Mountain Fur Co. My
> first choice is Jed Smith, but I may also write one about James Clyman.
> One or both may also turn into a Middle Grade Novel. Who knows.
>
> As part of my research and to attempt to get the flavor of the times, I
> joined this list. There may be some flavor here.
>
> Just be aware that I am here, and that I can use all the help I can get.
> I plan to use the incident when J.Smith got his head caught in the
> bear's mouth. Not a good place to get stuck. He carried the scars for
> the remainder of his life and wore his hair long as a result. Don't you
> think 5-9 year olds will love that bit? And then there is the battle
> with the "Rees" where he was stuck on the sand bar in the attack. This
> may become part of the Mid-grade Novel. Lots of action to keep the kids
> interested. Seems that Jedediah got stuck a lot. And he died very young
> as a result of being stuck in the desert.
>
> At one point I became interested in Jim Bridger, but he was such a liar
> (teller of tall tales), who knows what is true?
>
> If you are interested, I will keep you apprised of my progress.
>
> Gail Martini-Peterson
> [e-mail]
>
> As a true optimist I always assume the worst will happen, then pray that
> I wasn't too optimistic.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:40:00 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Scotts in the West

I, being an ambitious yet poor historical reinactor, am faced with a dilema.
I have been invited into a scottish clan to be a highlander, this is not the
problem.  The problem is that I am already trying to get into mountain man
type reinacting.  I was wondering if any of the people on this list have
information on Scotts who were mountain men, and if I might be able to cross
over some of the costs in reinactment.  THank you.  Matt

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:03:45 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shooting pouches

Hallelujah & amen! You can't say that too many times, yet I expect all of us
have to rein ourselves in sometimes. Just because it's purty doesn't mean
it's right--it's always best to check & double-check. That sure leads to
some tough decisions, though, especially when you see some really
good-looking accoutrement for sale, and you're hundreds of miles from your
library...

- --A.

LongWalker c. du B. (Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>) wrote:
>When
>you are building up your outfit, give a great deal of thought to selecting
>your references.  I know of at least two bags that were published as dating
>to the Rev war that are MACHINE SEWN. ....  Get multiple references,
>don't rely on ANY single reference, no matter how reliable it may seem.
>Think before you build.  It is a real pain to have to replace something
>when it could have been avoided by some research.

[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:31:55 -0400
From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: pilgrim outfit

I have been discussing this question with some people off-line and I decided
the best way to get the definitive answer would be to post it.
What would you folks consider to be the minimum outfit (clothing, shelter,
cookware, etc.) that a pilgrim like myself needs for a weekend rendezvous
that advertises as "pre-1840's"?  Thanks in advance for your help.


Kirk Mill

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:34:34 -0700
From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: My reason for being on this list

Gail C Martini-Peterson wrote:

> List Mates,
>
> I am an odd one to be found on a Mountain Man list. I do not aspire to
> be a Mountain...Woman. I am a retired teacher who writes for children,
> yet to be published, but working hard.

<snip>

Hello Gail and welcome to the list!

I'm sure you'll find an interesting cross section of americana here!  You'll
soon realize who really does their research and "knows their stuff".  For
the most part I just read, read and read some more, unless I have a
question.  There is an archive of past postings available at Dean's web page
which covers a lot of subjects already discussed that you can browse through
and some contain excellent references to good historical material.
Dean's web page is : http://www.xmission.com:80/~drudy/amm.html
So come on in the camp and have a sit by the fire...(you might want to stay
up wind from me though) ha ha!

Medicine Bear

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:59:11 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pilgrim outfit

>I have been discussing this question with some people off-line and I
decided
>the best way to get the definitive answer would be to post it.
>What would you folks consider to be the minimum outfit (clothing, shelter,
>cookware, etc.) that a pilgrim like myself needs for a weekend rendezvous
>that advertises as "pre-1840's"?  Thanks in advance for your help.
>
>
>Kirk Mill

Kirk,
 The best advice I can offer. Do it right the first time..Stay away from
chrome tan and "shiney " ronnyvoo stuff. It will be a helluva alot cheaper
in the long run.
  I carry a blanket, French haversack, a small kettle, my knife & gun
equipment. My fusil. Oh yeah!, my spoon! And some asst. of stuff in the
pockets of me wekit.  You may want a trail tarp for a leanto, if you are so
inclined..But you don't need much else.
>
Dennis Miles
AMM#1622

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:14:06 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: MtMan-List: Leggings into pants

Friends,

A friend gave me a pair of brain-tanned Lakota leggings he made.  I'm
thinking of making a pair of pants out of 'em.  I've got some brain tan to
match.  Are there any special techniques for patterning the front and seat
and attaching them to the existing legs?

TIA,
HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:05:58 -0700
From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pilgrim outfit

Hello the camp!

On the subject of "starting out", I have often wished that some experienced
enterprising skinner would put together a web page with pictures showing their
"historically correct" possibles.  Not every imaginable item but just the
basics needed to make a respectable outfit.  Heck, others could post to this
site as they get pictures of their stuff.  There's nothing like showing up to a
voo in your new outfit, full of expectations of a good time only to have those
with "well worn skins" look down their noses at you or worse, whisper and
point!  Sure does take the fun out of a weekend.  It's really hard sometimes to
imagine what a particular piece of gear or clothing looks like.  I live where
there is virtually no one to look to for help and the books I have don't have
the best pictures.  I imagine there are many greenhorns in the same fix.
Just a thought...

Medicine Bear

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2098 13:15:15 -0700
From: "Gail Carbiener" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Scotts in the West

Matt:
    I just happen to be reading "Company of Adventurers" Vol 1 by Peter C.
Newman. On page 6-7 it says in part...."Nearly all the great names in the
HBC's annals grew up in Scotland; not just Sir George Simpson, Donald Smith
and Sir James Douglas..... others Chief Factor Robert Campbell. This is not
yet Rocky Mountains..... but fur traders no the less.
Gail



- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Wednesday, July 29, 1998 10:43 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Scotts in the West


>I, being an ambitious yet poor historical reinactor, am faced with a
dilema.
>I have been invited into a scottish clan to be a highlander, this is not
the
>problem.  The problem is that I am already trying to get into mountain man
>type reinacting.  I was wondering if any of the people on this list have
>information on Scotts who were mountain men, and if I might be able to
cross
>over some of the costs in reinactment.  THank you.  Matt

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 16:20:49 -0400
From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: pilgrim outfit

    -----Original Message-----
    From:    Frank [SMTP:[e-mail]]
    Sent:    Wednesday, July 29, 1998 4:06 PM
    To:    [e-mail]
    Subject:    Re: MtMan-List: pilgrim outfit

    expectations of a good time only to have those with "well worn
skins" look down their noses at you or worse, whisper and point!  Sure does
take the fun out of a weekend.
    this is exactly what I am trying to avoid. Also I get conflicting
advice about just how strict these "rules" are. For instance on some lists I
see talk of bringing coolers to voo. Now I am pretty sure that an AMM rondy
would forbid this, but what about an NMLRA rondy? I'll play by the rules, I
just need to know what they are first.


Kirk Mill

    It's really hard sometimes to imagine what a particular piece of
gear or clothing looks like.  I live where there is virtually no one to look
to for help and the books I have don't have the best pictures.  I imagine
there are many greenhorns in the same fix.  Just a thought...
    Medicine Bear


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:57:04 -0700
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leggings into pants

Dear Sir:

My first effort at brain tanning back in the late 60's went into a pair of
leggens of no particular tribal style. If anything they were more eastern than
plains but too long for traditional eastern, well anyway. I got the idea after
a few years to turn them into a pare of pants with some scraps of the same
brain tanning efforts.  It wasn't all that difficult to make a seat piece and
a front piece and sew them in. I used a straight or french fly rather than
drop front and that seemed to work the best. I wore them for several years and
finally made another pair of leggens out of two other brain tan deer hides,
again in an eastern style.

My conclusions on the whole project was that I should have left the leggens as
leggens in the first place. I did not find that making them into pants was a
very satisfactory enterprise. My advice is to leave them be. If I had some
leggens potlached onto me as you did and they were of sufficient girth, I
would be inclined to make a pair of cloth britches to wear under them and make
them look more like the leggens worn by the whites in the fur trade era as
depicted by Miller et.al.

Hope my thoughts have been of some help. I remain...

YMOS
Capt. Lahti

Henry B. Crawford wrote:

> Friends,
>
> A friend gave me a pair of brain-tanned Lakota leggings he made.  I'm
> thinking of making a pair of pants out of 'em.  I've got some brain tan to
> match.  Are there any special techniques for patterning the front and seat
> and attaching them to the existing legs?
>
> TIA,
> HBC
>
> *****************************************
> Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
> [e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
> 806/742-2442           Box 43191
> FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>                WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
> ******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 18:11:20 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pilgrim outfit

Dennis Miles writes:
>   I carry a blanket, French haversack, a small kettle, my knife & gun
>  equipment. My fusil. Oh yeah!, my spoon! And some asst. of stuff in the
>  pockets of me wekit.  You may want a trail tarp for a leanto, if you are so
>  inclined..But you don't need much else.

Dennis,
How is your French Haversack made.  Is it the conventional sidebag style that
everyone uses or does something make it uniquely "French."  Would be
interested in a description and construction details.  My personna is that of
a pre-1750 "habitant" living with the Indians along the Illinois River.

I currently use a rucksack that is about the size and shape of a pillowcase.
It is painted with black paint to simulate a tarred or pitched sack.  I put a
.75 cal ball in each corner and tie hemp rope around them.  To these ropes are
attached rawhide shoulder straps with more rope at the top tied to form a
single line.  I put all my stuff in the sack, gather up the top, and tie the
single rope around it.  This in effect gives me a rucksack.

OldFox

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:15:47 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pilgrim outfit

>Kirk,
> The best advice I can offer. Do it right the first time..Stay away from
>chrome tan and "shiney " ronnyvoo stuff. It will be a helluva alot cheaper
>in the long run.
>  I carry a blanket, French haversack, a small kettle, my knife & gun
>equipment. My fusil. Oh yeah!, my spoon! And some asst. of stuff in the
>pockets of me wekit.  You may want a trail tarp for a leanto, if you are so
>inclined..But you don't need much else.
>>
>Dennis Miles
>AMM#1622

Unless you expect everyone else to feed you at a rondy, you'd better bring
some food along, too.  Many times a few people will form a mess and cook
and eat together.  Bring something to add to the group's culinary effort.
There's nothing so unwelcome at a rondy as a freeloader.  Bring a share of
victuals and you'll be welcome in anyone's camp (theoretically).

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #108
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