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hist_text-digest       Wednesday, July 29 1998       Volume 01 : Number 107




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:37:09 -0500
From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shooting pouches

Washtahay-
At 07:24 PM 7/27/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Also don't forget that back then you wouldn't want a flashy bag or else
>if you were wearing it and you were on a war party trying to sneak up on
>the enemy the flash from the brass studs could very well give you away or
>make you an obvious target to the warriors who would want something like
>that!
    I figure the 100 or so brass tacks on my musket, plus the tacks in the
knife scabbard, brass in the tack, the brass kettle on the pack saddle, etc
would probably make this little brass pin disappear...
LongWalker c. du B.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:36:48 -0500
From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shooting pouches

Washtahay-
At 10:56 AM 7/28/98 -0400, you wrote:
>what you are talking about I believe is a rain pin
    Is THAT what they call those things?  You know, I have wondered about that
since I was a younker...
    Your description of how they were used as a bag closure is much better
than mine.  I can draw it or make it, but I have trouble explaining how it
works...Thanks!
>which was used in the
>late 1800 and used primarily on horse assessories for wagons and someone
>has adapted it to use as a closure on shooting bags that were
>commercially made only----NOT HAND MADE BAGS----
    I have seen it on bags that are hand-sewn, but only on professionally made
bags-stuff that looks like it was made by a harness maker or saddler.  I
don't think anyone made such a bag at home before running off to the
mountains.
the head that protrudes

>i SAW THE SHOOTING BAG IN MADISON GRANTS BOOK AND DISCOUNTED IT BECAUSE
>IT WAS NOT FUR TRADE PERIOD AND IT WAS ALSO COMMERCIALLY MADE AND FROM
>THE EASTERN UNITED STATES---
    As I learned more, I discounted it as well, my first exposure to that bag
was when Marie Hanson pulled it out of its case so i could look at it and
would quit asking questions.

    But all this nit-picking (vbg) doesn't help Grant much in his search for a
bag to copy.  So let's all get our collective heads together and try to
come up with a representative bag that meets his criteria.  So I am going
to start another post on this topic, as soon as I get another cup of coffee.
LongWalker c. du B.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:07:05 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Shooting pouches

Just for the record, I am not trying to argue anything.  Just looking for help
and I DO appreciate all of the great posts about the history of this type of
closure.  You have convinced me against using it.  I would still like some
advice on styles of pouchs for this time period.  I do not have access to
Grant's book, but would appreciate any other sources for pouches to recreate.
I believe the pouch that I just finished will work fine for awhile.  It is
just a classic square shape, hand sewn with linen thread out of 8 ounce
cowhide.  It has an adjustable strap and a flap with a shape like the pouch I
have referenced.  Let me know what you think.  Thanks.

Grant

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:44:10 -0500
From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Shooting pouches

Washtahay-
At 01:07 PM 7/28/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Just for the record, I am not trying to argue anything.  Just looking for
help
>and I DO appreciate all of the great posts about the history of this type of
>closure.  You have convinced me against using it.  I would still like some
>advice on styles of pouchs for this time period.  I do not have access to
>Grant's book, but would appreciate any other sources for pouches to recreate.
>I believe the pouch that I just finished will work fine for awhile.
    Like maybe 20 years or so.  Just put a button on to close it and it would
be fairly typical for the time period you are discussing.
    We aren't really 'arguing' about it, just having a 'discussion'.  Where
are you located?  Let's hook you up with someone local if we can...
LongWalker c. du B.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:49:36 -0500
From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest

Washtahay-
    OK folks.  We've had a lot of palaver over one small feature of one bag
the last few days.  So lets get down to brass tacks on this.  I want to
locate an original hunting pouch that we can document as having been in use
on the frontier in the years 1825 to 1835, with the target date of 1830.
Here are the criteria the bag must meet:
    "Frontier" is defined as Rocky Mountains, Santa Fe trade, Texas, or the
Missouri River trade.  We should probably include bags in use in the St
Louis area and west within Missouri.  While I would love to hear about the
bags in use in the North during this time, that isn't the target area.
    "Document" is defined as being able to objectively date as having been in
use in the area defined as "Frontier".  By objectively, I mean by
contemporary records or a chain of evidence.  The assignment of dates, for
example Madison Grant's "ca 1820-1840" does NOT count, unless supported by
other available information (an example being the bag he shows on pp 74-75
of KRHP).  If you can come up with a bag that went with the supply trains
to Rendezvous, great!  But the bag used by some famous mountain man in the
late 1850s isn't what we are looking for.
    The bag must be published or accessible to the public.  The folks on the
list must have some way of accessing the bag, to examine and evaluate it
for their own purposes.  Be prepared to furnish supporting documentation.

    Prize?  Immortal fame isn't enough?  How about a rum horn and horn cup?
Copied after the canteen shown on p 142  and the bottom cup on p 144 of
"The Powder Horn and its Architecture".
    Let's run this for a week or so and see what comes out of the woodwork.
Judge's decisions are final.  Hawk, John Kramer-are you guys willing to
help me judge this?

Let the hunt begin!
LongWalker c. du B.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:25:55 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest

Sure I'll help a worthy endeavor; and throw a pre-1840 large cent in the=
 prize
pot.  I'm a little skeptical one is going to show up.  These sorts of things
tended to get used up until they rotted away.

I'd give a period half dollar if someone could find a genuine pre-1840 pair=
 of
leather pants all nicely documented to our area of interest.

John...


At 12:49 PM 7/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Washtahay-
> OK folks.=A0 We've had a lot of palaver over one small feature of one bag
>the last few days.=A0 So lets get down to brass tacks on this.=A0 I want to
>locate an original hunting pouch that we can document as having been in use
>on the frontier in the years 1825 to 1835, with the target date of 1830.
>Here are the criteria the bag must meet:
> "Frontier" is defined as Rocky Mountains, Santa Fe trade, Texas, or the
>Missouri River trade.=A0 We should probably include bags in use in the St
>Louis area and west within Missouri.=A0 While I would love to hear about=
 the
>bags in use in the North during this time, that isn't the target area.=A0=
=20
> "Document" is defined as being able to objectively date as having been in
>use in the area defined as "Frontier".=A0 By objectively, I mean by
>contemporary records or a chain of evidence.=A0 The assignment of dates,=
 for
>example Madison Grant's "ca 1820-1840" does NOT count, unless supported by
>other available information (an example being the bag he shows on pp 74-75
>of KRHP).=A0 If you can come up with a bag that went with the supply trains
>to Rendezvous, great!=A0 But the bag used by some famous mountain man in=
 the
>late 1850s isn't what we are looking for.
> The bag must be published or accessible to the public.=A0 The folks on the
>list must have some way of accessing the bag, to examine and evaluate it
>for their own purposes.=A0 Be prepared to furnish supporting=
 documentation.=A0=20
>
> Prize?=A0 Immortal fame isn't enough?=A0 How about a rum horn and horn=
 cup?
>Copied after the canteen shown on p 142=A0 and the bottom cup on p 144 of
>"The Powder Horn and its Architecture".=A0=20
> Let's run this for a week or so and see what comes out of the woodwork.
>Judge's decisions are final.=A0 Hawk, John Kramer-are you guys willing to
>help me judge this?
>
>Let the hunt begin!
>LongWalker c. du B.
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:04:18 -0600
From: Les Chaffin <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: (no subject)

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Hey all,
  Has anyone done business with Great Northern Trade Co. out of Warwick,
Rhode Island?

Les
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org:            Twin Falls Computer Center Mgr.
adr;dom:        34 Barton Lane;;;Twin Falls;Idaho;83301;
email;internet: [e-mail]
title:          Idaho State University
tel;work:       208-736-2119
tel;fax:        [phone]
tel;home:       208-736-6002
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:00:36 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shooting pouches

grant I asked mat despain to copy my pattern and instructions and send
you a copy it will probably be just what you want---Hope I have helped---

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:07:05 EDT <[e-mail]> writes:
>Just for the record, I am not trying to argue anything.  Just looking
>for help
>and I DO appreciate all of the great posts about the history of this
>type of
>closure.  You have convinced me against using it.  I would still like
>some
>advice on styles of pouchs for this time period.  I do not have access
>to
>Grant's book, but would appreciate any other sources for pouches to
>recreate.
>I believe the pouch that I just finished will work fine for awhile.
>It is
>just a classic square shape, hand sewn with linen thread out of 8
>ounce
>cowhide.  It has an adjustable strap and a flap with a shape like the
>pouch I
>have referenced.  Let me know what you think.  Thanks.
>
>Grant
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:19:10 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest

You got it----will be glad to help judge--- but have already offered a
bag drawing and pattern---so please remove me as a contestant---the bag
whose pattern that i used was taken from Manard Rupp fathers bag---I
bought the gun that went with the bag from manard in about 1959 Manard
was 88 years old then and his father died in 1908 at the age of 97--he
and his father  went to origon to trap in the 1830's and he eventually
settled there he married beth wilson and had 3 children  all boys--manard
brothers were both dead when i met him and i enjoyed hearing the stories
about the rockey mountains and trapping---because i was a avid trapper in
those days---I learned a lot from that old man and it surprised me how at
his age still liked to set coon and mink traps---I dont ever know what
happened to the bag---"but I have his fathers 1/2 stock mountain
rifle---and the gun shoots good til yet----

mail your pictures or entries and will post the selection and will
forward pictures or sketches if i can scan them in to anyone that wants a
copy---

I'LL ADD A HAND MADE TURKEY CALL TO THE PRIZE POT--- THIS SHOULD GET SOME
INTEREST GOING.

SOMEONE NEEDS TO SET A CUTOFF DATE FOR THE ENTRIES---


      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:49:36 -0500 Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Washtahay-
>    OK folks.  We've had a lot of palaver over one small feature
>of one bag
>the last few days.  So lets get down to brass tacks on this.  I want
>to
>locate an original hunting pouch that we can document as having been
>in use
>on the frontier in the years 1825 to 1835, with the target date of
>1830.
>Here are the criteria the bag must meet:
>    "Frontier" is defined as Rocky Mountains, Santa Fe trade,
>Texas, or the
>Missouri River trade.  We should probably include bags in use in the
>St
>Louis area and west within Missouri.  While I would love to hear about
>the
>bags in use in the North during this time, that isn't the target area.
>
>    "Document" is defined as being able to objectively date as
>having been in
>use in the area defined as "Frontier".  By objectively, I mean by
>contemporary records or a chain of evidence.  The assignment of dates,
>for
>example Madison Grant's "ca 1820-1840" does NOT count, unless
>supported by
>other available information (an example being the bag he shows on pp
>74-75
>of KRHP).  If you can come up with a bag that went with the supply
>trains
>to Rendezvous, great!  But the bag used by some famous mountain man in
>the
>late 1850s isn't what we are looking for.
>    The bag must be published or accessible to the public.  The
>folks on the
>list must have some way of accessing the bag, to examine and evaluate
>it
>for their own purposes.  Be prepared to furnish supporting
>documentation.
>
>    Prize?  Immortal fame isn't enough?  How about a rum horn and
>horn cup?
>Copied after the canteen shown on p 142  and the bottom cup on p 144
>of
>"The Powder Horn and its Architecture".
>    Let's run this for a week or so and see what comes out of the
>woodwork.
>Judge's decisions are final.  Hawk, John Kramer-are you guys willing
>to
>help me judge this?
>
>Let the hunt begin!
>LongWalker c. du B.
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:57:44 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shooting pouches

longwalker :---
I just sent my pattern and instructions for a nice double beavertail
shooting bag to Matt despain this would be a very applicable bag for
him---I have one made out of a old leather mailpouch ---the pouch was 20
years old when i got it and I have had the bag for over 20 years---so it
shows a lot of age---Matt if you read this then run a copy of the pattern
and the instructions and send them to him---it will fit the bill for
sure---worst case he can throw it in the trash---if he doesnt like
it---have used mine for many years and it's small enough to not be bulky
and big enough to carry everything you need---the double part lets it
expand and makes it like carying 2 seperat bags ---I got the pattern from
a original then make up a few and was selling them at one time---drew up
a good set of instructions that tell you how to put it together piece by
piece---

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:36:48 -0500 Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Washtahay-
>At 10:56 AM 7/28/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>what you are talking about I believe is a rain pin
>    Is THAT what they call those things?  You know, I have
>wondered about that
>since I was a younker...
>    Your description of how they were used as a bag closure is
>much better
>than mine.  I can draw it or make it, but I have trouble explaining
>how it
>works...Thanks!
>>which was used in the
>>late 1800 and used primarily on horse assessories for wagons and
>someone
>>has adapted it to use as a closure on shooting bags that were
>>commercially made only----NOT HAND MADE BAGS----
>    I have seen it on bags that are hand-sewn, but only on
>professionally made
>bags-stuff that looks like it was made by a harness maker or saddler.
>I
>don't think anyone made such a bag at home before running off to the
>mountains.
>the head that protrudes
>
>>i SAW THE SHOOTING BAG IN MADISON GRANTS BOOK AND DISCOUNTED IT
>BECAUSE
>>IT WAS NOT FUR TRADE PERIOD AND IT WAS ALSO COMMERCIALLY MADE AND
>FROM
>>THE EASTERN UNITED STATES---
>    As I learned more, I discounted it as well, my first exposure
>to that bag
>was when Marie Hanson pulled it out of its case so i could look at it
>and
>would quit asking questions.
>
>    But all this nit-picking (vbg) doesn't help Grant much in his
>search for a
>bag to copy.  So let's all get our collective heads together and try
>to
>come up with a representative bag that meets his criteria.  So I am
>going
>to start another post on this topic, as soon as I get another cup of
>coffee.
>LongWalker c. du B.
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:21:14 -0500
From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shooting pouches

Has there been any comments on the bags shown in:

http://www.oct-country.com/shootbag.htm

?

Iron Burner

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:06:11 -0600
From: "Ron" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Chinook

Klahowya sihks!

I'm located in SE Idaho. I was wondering how extensively the Chinook jargon
was used during the fur trade. Did trappers in the mid 1830's speak some of
the jargon in the area around Ft. Hall? Or just around the coast?

I met a gentlemen speaking jargon up at Pierre's hole camp on the fourth
( I was the flatlander with the beard..hehehe).

I'm learning to sign, and some Shoshone, but would appreciate any input on
this.

By the way I found an interesting site on the jargon:
<http://www.geocities.com/~tenaswawa/twtoc.htm>

YMOS
Ron




<http://www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/rendezvous.html>
Email <[e-mail]>

     \|/
     / \
   /     \
 /    0   \ Lonewolf

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:01:21 -0500
From: Jeff Powers <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: could you post this for me?

On 1998-07-27 [e-mail] said to [e-mail]
   >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
   >X-Priority: 3
   >X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162
   >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
   >Status:
   >Hey Jeff. Thanks for the directions for the bear claws and roach.
   >I've made 3 bear claws so far, but I don't think I have the
   >endurance to make 25-30 of them (by the 20th one I'll start to say
   >some bad things about those !@#$ claws (he, he, he) ). Just want to
   >tell you that I'm not the sharpest tack in the box. The directions
   >said plainly to dip it in hot parifen and rub it into the wood,
   >right? well I did exactly what it said, I dipped it in some melted
   >wax (parafin)and rubbed it into the wood right away. smart? I think
   >not. I burned every one of my fingers several times =( Anyway, I
   >mainly e-mailed you to ask you if you could help me with a question
   >and post it on the list. How much would a new or used trade gun
   >cost? I've been looking for a musket for reenacting (1750-1770's)
   >and I've finaly decided a trade gun would be the best choice.
   >Please post this question on the list. I get the mt. man list so I
   >can just read the responces from there.
   >Thanks ahead of time
   >Your Warrior Wannabe,
   >David Fritsch
David, remember not all claws from one bear are in good enough condition to
use for a necklace,when you get 5-10 of them done string em up with bead
spacers,etc. and wear it proudly! And yes I've had my share of burned
fingers too!
  If you are into smelting lead,check out the wastewater plant
there(Dodgeville) Highgrade Galena at about 10 feet down from the
surface,and its getting hauled across the road and piled! I'm thinking about
bringing a load home with me on Thursday. The ore samples at Pendarvis ain't
even close,theyre lowgrade by comparison;)
  I think as far as the trade gun goes $350-900 is the range I've seen,but
if I was looking for a new musket(French Charleville

  m1777 would be nice) I would plan
on spending at least $600 to get a quality gun. $350 was a old kit Hawkin I
think and had been left in a wet garage or something.
                      Jeff











SOUFLE,SOUFLE  La VIELLE

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:12:50 -0700
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Trade gun!1750's to 1770's

David'

You might consider a Tulle' fusil in 20 ga. I have had one I put
together a few years ago and I love it. It is light and handy and quit
accurate with a patched ball. It shoots shoot very well with simple
wadding. The best part is that it goes way back to the mid 1700's and is
not out of place in the early 1800's.

I also have a Charlleville Musket that I got somewhere back in the late
70's or early 80's and only went to the Tulle' cause the ammo is lighter
for the Tulle' with it being 20 ga. and the Charlleville being 14 ga.
The Charlleville shot every bit as good as the Tulle' if not a smidgen
better and I had a heck of a lot of fun shooting with the rifle boys
around WA. Give em a good scare whenever that Charlleville came out of
its case, I did!

I have some friends that carry Northwest trade guns and they have their
share of problems with them. That's why they usually don't go for all
that much money. Be real careful if that is what you are looking to buy.
My best advice to anyone getting ready to invest some money in a gun is
get as much quality as you can afford and quality will start at well
over $500 (in my opinion). That is for a quality kit that isn't too hard
to put together.

Well that is my bit of advice. Let us know what you come up with. Good
luck.

I remain
YMOS
Capt. Lahti

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 00:50:56 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade gun!1750's to 1770's

David, I have a Centermark tulle' fusil "Grenadier" (military model with plain
stock, bright barrel and bayonet) which dates to c. 1763, and was in common
use for many years after.  It is relatively light to carry, can be loaded with
buckshot, ball, or buck 'n ball (or even small pebbles if thats what you have
at hand). It has proven to be very competitive, and reliable.  The kits were
well made, and it came out to about $500.00 when finished.
Hope this info helps.  PJ

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 00:59:42 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade gun!1750's to 1770's

David, Forgot to mention about the Centermark "grenadier". Its 20 guage, (.62
calibre).  They are located at P.O.Box 575 Fredonia, NY 14063  phone is (716)
679-0276.  Their guns are available unassembled, in the white assembled, or
completely finished.   PJ

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 01:56:19 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade gun!1750's to 1770's

One thing about shooting a Charleville is the lock springs guarantee sparks no
matter if your rock is sharp, if you've got almost any hunk of flint
clamped in
the cock jaws you are going to get sparks.  I've always felt the springs on
reproduction Brown Bess's were too soft and slow, they still seem to work
pretty well.

The main problem with many Trade Guns is the locks have soft slow springs;
they
need a real sharp flint.  Some of the frizzens aren't tempered well and some
makers drill the flash hole too close to the bottom of the pan, or too far
forward or rear of center.  I've seen some really thin barrels that concerned
me.  Stocks are light (often poorly grained) and tend to break at the wrist.
Too many "first, and sometimes only, guns" were trade guns because there were
some cheap kits some years back.

Hawk has it right about going for quality, and the Italian made Charleville's
are bullet proof, my horse thrice tried to bend mine around a tree, took a few
hours of careful smithing on a rock with an axe butt to straighten the ramrod
but she still shoots straight, a few cracks in the fore stock, a little
missing
wood.  Been abusing it since 1978.  I tripped a hand forged beaver trap
with it
a couple of times to leave a few more period marks on the butt stock.

Many years ago I owned incredible Mulford, Bivens, Smola and other fine makers
arms.  Every time I took one in the field I was too concerned about injuring
the fine finish carving, inlay and detail.  then I got my Charleville.  First
thing I did was throw it on the ground, throw rocks at it, left it out in the
rain and personally wet it down in the hot sun to rust the barrel and lock,
stomped on it, beat it with chains,  and never worried about hurting its fine
finish again.  I rub it down with my Improver once in a while and it is
beautiful.  The iron is nearly black and the wood rich.  I've had several
"experts" at gun shows swear it's an original.

I also carry a (20 to the pound) buffalo runner cut down from an old Green
River Forge kit and like it a lot.  Ain't nothing left to break off.
Plenty of
iron in the barrel.  The best parts then available.

The fine tuned crisp springs in a quality rifle/fowler lock don't exist in
muskets.  Too spend a lot of time fine tuning a musket lock seems a little
odd,
its not what a musket was.  I prefer stouter  springs on mine.

The kit the blanket gun was made from cost $325 in 1981.  The stock was
roughed
out and not even close to inletted or drilled for the ramrod.  Hated to whack
off so much nice wood.  Traded a bunch of prime plunder to Mike Wilson to
build
it for me.  A blanket gun takes as much to build as a full length trade gun.

Buy the best you can afford and look around a little first.  You'll soon
develop an eye for quality.

John...




At 09:12 PM 7/28/98 -0700, you wrote:
>David'
>
>You might consider a Tulle' fusil in 20 ga. I have had one I put
>together a few years ago and I love it. It is light and handy and quit
>accurate with a patched ball. It shoots shoot very well with simple
>wadding. The best part is that it goes way back to the mid 1700's and is
>not out of place in the early 1800's.
>
>I also have a Charlleville Musket that I got somewhere back in the late
>70's or early 80's and only went to the Tulle' cause the ammo is lighter
>for the Tulle' with it being 20 ga. and the Charlleville being 14 ga.
>The Charlleville shot every bit as good as the Tulle' if not a smidgen
>better and I had a heck of a lot of fun shooting with the rifle boys
>around WA. Give em a good scare whenever that Charlleville came out of
>its case, I did!
>
>I have some friends that carry Northwest trade guns and they have their
>share of problems with them. That's why they usually don't go for all
>that much money. Be real careful if that is what you are looking to buy.
>My best advice to anyone getting ready to invest some money in a gun is
>get as much quality as you can afford and quality will start at well
>over $500 (in my opinion). That is for a quality kit that isn't too hard
>to put together.
>
>Well that is my bit of advice. Let us know what you come up with. Good
>luck.
>
>I remain
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti
>
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 01:56:49 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rod tip

Since I shoot a cut down, tacked covered, whittled on Charleville, the iron
ramrod came with a ramming button upset on the end.  I found an old worm and
had the rod re-threaded to fit the worm.  I tie the worm to the sling
swivel so
it's always handy.  A few rags a little oil, turnscrew, knapper, pick and
whisk, mold - shot spoon and ladle, and I've got all the gun maintenance I
need.

Sounds like the button is missing from the tip of yours - write to Hawk=
 sounds
like he has your solution.  A dense wood like rock maple, brass, iron,=
 ivory,
ebony and more could be appropriate.  Depends on the gun.

John...



At 11:31 PM 7/27/98 -0700, you wrote:
>john kramer----=A0=A0 about ramrod tips, i have an old 16 ga double barrel=
=A0=20
> shotgun that has the original ramrod(tapered).=A0 it has the single twist=
=20
>worm on one end, but is missing the tip off the other. tapers from 13/16=20
>to 1/4 of an inch. seems alfull small to be off much use. frank
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 07:46:26 -0500
From: "Scott Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (no subject)

Les ,

Yes I've done some business with Great Northern. They are real good
to deal with and have some good prices on some real quality stuff.


Your most humble servant,
Scott Allen
http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:50:07 -0400
From: [e-mail] (charles l chalk)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (no subject)  Gr. No. Trade Co.

Great Northrn Trade is a company you can fully trust. Tom Leamey is a
personal friend and honest business man. He did a search for a period
Bible and the cost was resonable (condition, mint). Also a solid
supporter of The Original Northeastern Rendevouz.
Charles Chalk
Merrimack, N.H. 03054



>Hey all,
>  Has anyone done business with Great Northern Trade Co. out of
>Warwick,
>Rhode Island?
>
>

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:14:40 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade gun!1750's to 1770's

PJ---
do they have a web site that you can give us----

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 00:59:42 EDT <[e-mail]> writes:
>David, Forgot to mention about the Centermark "grenadier". Its 20
>guage, (.62
>calibre).  They are located at P.O.Box 575 Fredonia, NY 14063  phone
>is (716)
>679-0276.  Their guns are available unassembled, in the white
>assembled, or
>completely finished.   PJ
>
>

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:12:38 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shooting pouches

the bags look good in the pictures and if the quality that they ship is
as good as the pictures then the price seems reasonable---couldnt tell if
they were hand made or machine made that is sewed---

a shooting bag is a very personal thing and I have never seen two people
agree what or how a bag should look or be built like---I know for certain
its more than imbarrising for a bag not to be what you want.  I worked on
the one that I use for several years to get the shape and fit and
location of the straps and all that was suitable to me, my body contours,
the compfort of wearing, and it's basic usability--A SHOOTING BAG IS
EITHER RIGHT OR VERY COLUMBERSOM AND WILL SLOW YOU DOWN WHEN LOADING AND
SHOOTING OUT OF IT----it must be just big enough for you and just small
enough to wear all day and not be a bother---one of the most critical
things i found was the strap width---going over the top of the
sholder---finaly came to the conclusion strap over the top of the sholder
should be wide as possible---another important point was it should be
ajustable for your body and clothing changes---another point is it should
be organized well enough that it can be worn in the woods in all areas of
the country and still be totally functional----NOTE ---A PICTURE IS ONLY
A STARTING POINT TO GETTING WHAT YOU REALLY WANT OR NEED---have seen a
lot of Pretty, and very fancy bags that to me was not functional and
applicable to my type of hunting, shooting---because of this I have 2
bags that i have made and have used over the ages--one is primarily for
hunting---it is quite small and only caries what i need to hunt or shoot
with--- the other is larger and it carries everything that i need for
hunting and survival in the woods has a knife on the back of the bag
even---I GRAB MY SHOOTING BAGS AND i AM READY TO GO---SHOOT, TRECK ,OR
HUNT--DONT HAVE TO HUNT FOR ANYTHING AND KNOW WHAT EACH CONTAIN ---I keep
the horn's full and the bullet load always the same.

My bags have everything in them that I will need per above---the trick is
to keep them as small as possible yet carry what you need---YOU DONT
TRULY REALISE WHAT A FEW OUNCES IN WEIGHT WILL MAKE AND JUST A SMALL
DIFFERENCE IN SIZE---

a shooting bag should hold only what you need NO MORE---NO LESS ---
remember what is good for me might be the pits for you---A SHOOTING BAG
IS A VERY PERSONAL THING====if you like it and it works for you then its'
wonderful---

   YMHOSANT
       =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:21:14 -0500 Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]> writes:
>Has there been any comments on the bags shown in:
>
>http://www.oct-country.com/shootbag.htm
>
>?
>
>Iron Burner
>
>

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:23:59 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rod tip

have a couple of pieces of solid buffilo horn that I have been making
shotgun flair tips from can use brass--ivery--or whatever--
the loading flair must be right to fit your gun and should rest under the
keeper notch on the front of the barrel if it is a quality gun---most
originals have that feature if it is of good quality and hasn't been cut
off by one of it's owners--- the small end is threaded and has a wad
puller if it is a good gun and has not been altered--

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 01:56:49 -0500 John Kramer <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Since I shoot a cut down, tacked covered, whittled on Charleville, the
>iron
>ramrod came with a ramming button upset on the end.  I found an old
>worm and
>had the rod re-threaded to fit the worm.  I tie the worm to the sling
>swivel so
>it's always handy.  A few rags a little oil, turnscrew, knapper, pick
>and
>whisk, mold - shot spoon and ladle, and I've got all the gun
>maintenance I
>need.
>
>Sounds like the button is missing from the tip of yours - write to
>Hawk=
> sounds
>like he has your solution.  A dense wood like rock maple, brass,
>iron,=
> ivory,
>ebony and more could be appropriate.  Depends on the gun.
>
>John...
>
>
>
>At 11:31 PM 7/27/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>john kramer----=A0=A0 about ramrod tips, i have an old 16 ga double
>barrel=
>=A0=20
>> shotgun that has the original ramrod(tapered).=A0 it has the single
>twist=
>=20
>>worm on one end, but is missing the tip off the other. tapers from
>13/16=20
>>to 1/4 of an inch. seems alfull small to be off much use. frank
>>=20
>Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
>John Kramer  <[e-mail]>
>
>

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------------------------------

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