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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1007 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Saturday, March 23 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1007 In this issue: -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: geography of Across the Wide Missouri -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: pyrodex -áááááá MtMan-List: Re: geography of Across the Wide Missouri -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark/Sacajawea -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: louis & clark -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark/Sacajawea -áááááá MtMan-List: Damascus barrels ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 00:20:17 EST From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: geography of Across the Wide Missouri Bernard DeVoto was more an epic novelist than a serious research historian. It's a great book to read, but not to use as a resource. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 00:12:34 -0500 From: "Fred A. Miller" <fmiller@lightlink.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pyrodex Addison Miller wrote: > Been there... done that... won't use it either... and they can keep > the T-Shirt... I got almost a full "can" of it... anyone want it? > > Regards, > > Ad Miller > > I will not shoot pyrodex out of any of my muzzleloaders, it just ain't > right. It's like, wearing immitation leather leggins, it's like, > wearing a faux fur hat. Worse, it's CORROSIVE with a capital C! Fred - -- "The only secure Microsoft software is what's still shrink-wrapped in their warehouse..." (Forno) - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:16:09 -0600 From: "Henry B. Crawford" <mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: geography of Across the Wide Missouri The author was Bernard DeVoto. He wrote the trilogy which includes _The Course of Empire_, and _The Year of Decision, 1846_. _Across the Wide Missouri_ is the second in the trilogy. I suspect that given Devoto's reputation as a fine historian of the American experience that the mistake was just a typo. Authors are often at the mercy of their copy editors. For whatever reason, the editor typed "east" instead of "west." I'd cut DeVoto some slack on this one. He rarely if ever made such blatant errors. DeVoto is a delight to read, and his edition of the Lewis and Clark journals is still one of the best. When he died his ashes were scattered along the banks of the Lochsa River in Idaho, near part of the Lewis and Clark trail. HBC >reading "Across the wide Missouri" and at the moment I can't >recall the author, but he said on p33 "Campbell mustered his party at >Lexington >MO which is farther East than the usual jumping off places, Franklin, >Independence and eventually Westport." . . . Unless of course there is >another >Lexington that is (or was) actually east of Franklin. I was just >wondering if anyone >might know of a reason for what seems to me to be a >big geographical problem? >Are there other such geographical >discrepancies? > >Monte Holder *********************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University Box 43191 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 henry.b.crawford@ttu.edu 806/742-2442, ext 255 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.museum.ttu.edu ***Living History . . . Because It's There*** - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 13:00:11 -0800 From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark/Sacajawea Joe, I don't see anyone else offering their opinion so I'll offer mine for the sake of discussion and it is only opinion. I don't recall ever reading anything from primary documents that discussed the details you ask about below so I apply some reasonable speculation to fill in the picture until definitive proof comes forth. > 1. what kind of dress would she have been wearing coming from the west coast Sacajawea was Shoshone, lived with more eastern plains tribes and was married to a "whiteman" so I would presume she would favor the styles she knew how to make. The coastal Indians they spent so much time around during that winter at Ft. Clatsop didn't wear buckskin/Indian dressed leather because of the continual damp. Their clothing (when they wore any) was made of natural fibers and what was traded to them by coastal European traders. Sacajawea would have replaced her clothing and that of Pomp by making it as she was used to making it and from the dressed elk and perhaps deer hides brought in by Lewis and Clark's men. She might have been influenced by the Columbia Plateau Indians they came in contact with such as the Yakimas (if they met any) certainly the Nez Perce and perhaps other lesser tribes in that area and may have traded for clothing made by them but these tribes' styles and methods still weren't that different than the Plains Indian tribes from which Sacajawea sprung from. > 2. Would she have been wrapped in a blanket around the waist as deemed proper That is quite likely but who can say she was or wasn't? If that is something she and her adopted tribe and her "mother tribe" did, then likely she would. Without trade blankets what would they have used? > 3. What kind of saddle if any might she of been riding. I'm not sure what the Corps had available at that point but if they had European saddles by then, it could have been such. Otherwise I would imagine she either rode without a saddle or rode using the common type of Indian saddle and certainly the tribes they traveled through would have such if they used them at all that far back. In that case she would have used what was available or nothing. > 4. What kind of horse, size etc The horses were what the Corps traded for on the east side and what might have been provided by the Nez Perce. I'm not sure they had established a clear appaloosa by that point but probably. I'm under the impression that the Plains tribes used the Spanish Barb. > 5. Any type of bridle Whatever the Indians used or what the Corps still had in inventory. > 6. Moccasin type Likely the same type as used by the Shoshone or the tribe she had been bought out of. It's always possible she might have picked up on the styles used by the Nez Perce but I think more likely she made what she knew how to make. That's anything from center seam/pucker toes with a vamp and high sides to a side seam with high sides. > 7. What might of Pomp been wearing for clothing Whatever kids of that age were dressed in by her people. What was that? > 8. Would her dress have any decoration on it, beads or quills or plain Who knows. I would think that she might have had access to some beads and maybe quills that might have been worked at Ft. Clatsop, but for traveling it is just as likely that there was no adornment or very little. And the beads in inventory were to be used to influence the various Tribes, not to hand out to an Indian woman in the expedition. > 9 A tacked leather belt, rawhide belt or no belt Again, it depends on fashion for her and her people. Did she have the tacks to use? Were they even being applied to leather belts commonly by her people or the people she had been captured by at that time. Otherwise it might have been a decorated or undecorated rawhide belt or sash. I would suspect she had something on though. > 10. Any knife, awl case, strike a light or any bags on belt One would think so, especially if that was common from her experience. > 11. Hair loose or maybe braided or tied back Loose is not practical on the move and probably not that practical in camp. I'd bet it was braided in two braids. > 12. A buffalo hide over saddle or a wool blanket or what if anything If it was available, there would have been some sort of cover to sit on. But how much riding did she do? I guess if everyone was riding, she did too. And they would have used whatever they had. Do the journals mention apishamores and saddles at that point? > > I have my own opinions but did not express them at the time as he was > quite excited about the bronze. B ut I was curious as for horse gear > they might of had. So what are your opinions? <G> YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 04:34:58 EST From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: louis & clark - --part1_168.ab73159.29cc54c2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy Joe First off I want to thank ya again for the donations ya made to the land fund they sure helped out at the auction at nationals this year. Let me add my thoughts two Capt. Lahti's > 1. what kind of dress would she have been wearing coming from the west > coast I think the two hide dress could have been the stile but wouldn't one of them Shoshoni skirts with bare breast made a more eye catching Bronze? But being the only women in the party I do not think she would have worn one. Louis & Clark would have frond on it, after getting there eye full of coarse. > 2. Would she have been wrapped in a blanket around the waist as deemed > proper Most definitely to help protect the leges Jill always rides with a blanket warped around the legs. As the women did back then. > 3. What kind of saddle if any might she of been riding. With having a child I would think she would be ridding a women's saddle. Either gotten from her people or from the Nez Perce. > 4. What kind of horse, size etc. Naturally the smaller Spanish Barb. > 5. Any type of bridle A war bridle or rope tied around the neck with a hitch around the muzzle would be my guess. > 6. Moccasin type Side seam for it was noted by Clark that was the type of moccasin that were being made and went in to detail on how they were made. He had to be watching someone make them that way. > 7. What might of Pomp been wearing for clothing Children of that age went mostly without any. Unless the weather was cold then he would have been warped in a blanket. > 8. Would her dress have any decoration on it, beads or quills or plain It would have been most likely a work dress very little decoration more likely plain. > 9 A tacked leather belt, rawhide belt or no belt Rawhide, If I remember right on the trip out she had a blue beaded belt that was traded on the coast for some thing for Clark. ( may be mistaken on the beaded belt that is what happens when ya read to many Novels things can get muddled) > 10. Any knife, awl case, strike a light or any bags on belt Knife, awl case, porcupine hair brush most likely and maybe a strike a lite. > 11. Hair loose or maybe braided or tied back Hair loose as the Lemhi Women wore theirs, my guess. > 12. A buffalo hide over saddle or a wool blanket or what if anything > Now this one would depend on if they had enough horses to pack all their > gear and for every one to ride. For them women would pack a lot of stuff on > their saddles and ride on top of the load when on the move. So it could > have quit a load on that saddle not just a robe. To answer this one I'd > have to dig out the journals and do some checking. > > See ya on the trail > Crazy Cyot - --part1_168.ab73159.29cc54c2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML>Howdy Joe First off I want to thank ya again for the donations ya made to the land fund they sure helped out at the auction at nationals this year. Let me add my thoughts two Capt. Lahti's <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">1. what kind of dress would she have been wearing coming from the west coast</BLOCKQUOTE> I think the two hide dress could have been the stile but wouldn't one of them Shoshoni skirts with bare breast made a more eye catching Bronze? But being the only women in the party I do not think she would have worn one. Louis & Clark would have frond on it, after getting there eye full of coarse. <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">2. Would she have been wrapped in a blanket around the waist as deemed proper</BLOCKQUOTE> Most definitely to help protect the leges Jill always rides with a blanket warped around the legs. As the women did back then. <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">3. What kind of saddle if any might she of been riding.</BLOCKQUOTE> With having a child I would think she would be ridding a women's saddle. Either gotten from her people or from the Nez Perce. <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">4. What kind of horse, size etc.</BLOCKQUOTE> Naturally the smaller Spanish Barb. <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">5. Any type of bridle</BLOCKQUOTE> A war bridle or rope tied around the neck with a hitch around the muzzle would be my guess. <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">6. Moccasin type</BLOCKQUOTE> Side seam for it was noted by Clark that was the type of moccasin that were being made and went in to detail on how they were made. He had to be watching someone make them that way. <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">7. What might of Pomp been wearing for clothing</BLOCKQUOTE> Children of that age went mostly without any. Unless the weather was cold then he would have been warped in a blanket. <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">8. Would her dress have any decoration on it, beads or quills or plain</BLOCKQUOTE> It would have been most likely a work dress very little decoration more likely plain. <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">9 A tacked leather belt, rawhide belt or no belt</BLOCKQUOTE> Rawhide, If I remember right on the trip out she had a blue beaded belt that was traded on the coast for some thing for Clark. ( may be mistaken on the beaded belt that is what happens when ya read to many Novels things can get muddled) <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">10. Any knife, awl case, strike a light or any bags on belt</BLOCKQUOTE> Knife, awl case, porcupine hair brush most likely and maybe a strike a lite. <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">11. Hair loose or maybe braided or tied back</BLOCKQUOTE> Hair loose as the Lemhi Women wore theirs, my guess. <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">12. A buffalo hide over saddle or a wool blanket or what if anything Now this one would depend on if they had enough horses to pack all their gear and for every one to ride. For them women would pack a lot of stuff on their saddles and ride on top of the load when on the move. So it could have quit a load on that saddle not just a robe. To answer this one I'd have to dig out the journals and do some checking. See ya on the trail Crazy Cyot</BLOCKQUOTE> </HTML> - --part1_168.ab73159.29cc54c2_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:13:23 -0700 From: "John L. Allen" <jlallen@wyoming.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark/Sacajawea I think Capt. Lahti is pretty much on target here. Just a few things I'd add: 1. Whatever the dress/moccasin style, it would almost certainly have been either Shoshone (her tribe) or Hidatsa (her captors, with whom she had lived for nearly 6 years before "marrying" Charbonneau). And it would almost certainly have been without ornamentation--as the Capt. points out, the "Indian presents" such as beads carried by the Corps were too valuable to waste on one of the party. 2. It is very unlikely that Sacajawea would have been on horseback. For some reasons, artists--even really careful researchers like John Clymer--can't resist trying to cram the Corps of Discovery into a Rocky Mountain fur trade model. This was a river expedition--their single objective (as Jefferson reminded Lewis on several occasions) was to locate a water route across the continent for the purposes of commerce. When they didn't travel by water, they walked--the horses acquired from the Shoshones (and, by the time they got back across the Divide on the eastbound journey, maybe they would have had some Nez Perce stock as well) were intended for pack animals--not for riding. As a river expedition, the Corps was outfitted for a great deal more gear than could have readily been carried on horseback, while still leaving enough horses left over for people to ride. The method of travel by foot was so ingrained that, several years later, when John Colter set out from Lisa's fort at the mouth of the Big Horn to explore the Big Horn Basin, he did so on foot. About the only time we know members of the Expedition were relying on horseback travel was during Lewis's ill-fated exploration of the Marias. Clark would have liked to use horses to travel down the Yellowstone on the return journey but the Crows stole 'em all, forcing the party to make dugout canoes from cottonwoods and travel by river. 3. The Nez Perce did have the Appaloosa by Lewis and Clark's time--although whether they had bred the horse or not is still in question. Lewis wrote the first description of this breed: "some of those horses are pided [pied] with large spots of white irregularly scattered and intermixed with the black brown bey or some other dark colour." (February 15, 1806) 4. There are many references to saddles in the journals. These were either pack saddles--which Lewis and Clark had their men make from locally-obtained wood and leather--or "Spanish saddles" which came with the horses obtained from the Shoshones in August, 1805. The normal "caparison" of the Indian horse, as Lewis described it was a "halter and saddle"--he gives a very good description of the saddle (making it sound much like a pack saddle) in vol. 5 of the Moulton Journals of Lewis and Clark, pp. 160-61. He also notes that most of the Indians didn't use saddles but simply a pad thrown across the horse's back and (sometimes) lashed to the horse with rawhide strips. If Sacajawea was ever on horseback (which I doubt) she probably would have been riding on such a pad rather than a saddle. 5. Without meaning any disrespect to the distaff side, Sacajawea was far less important than history has made her out to be. She is almost never mentioned by name in the journals--is usually just referred to as "the Indian woman". She never acted as a guide although did see service as an interpreter with the Shoshones. She was useful in identifying botanicals that could be used for food or medicine, etc., and on one occasion jumped into the river to save journals and other papers that were in danger of being lost when a dugout capsized. Nevertheless, in the context of the times, she was "just" an Indian woman. That she would have been riding probably doesn't fit very well with things as they were. Because she was unique (the lone woman on the journey) she makes a good character for artistic portrayals such as the one we're discussing. I'm not saying that she was unimportant--nor was she ignored by the captains (Clark took her kids to raise in St. Louis so there had to be some degree of respect/affection for her). But this was not the Sacajawea Expedition. John Dr. John L. Allen 2703 Leslie Court Laramie, WY 82072-2979 Phone: (307) 742-0883 Fax: (307) 742-0886 e-mail: jlallen@wyoming.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 2:00 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark/Sacajawea > > > > Joe, > > I don't see anyone else offering their opinion so I'll offer mine for the > sake of discussion and it is only opinion. I don't recall ever reading > anything from primary documents that discussed the details you ask about > below so I apply some reasonable speculation to fill in the picture until > definitive proof comes forth. > > > > > 1. what kind of dress would she have been wearing coming from the west > coast > > Sacajawea was Shoshone, lived with more eastern plains tribes and was > married to a "whiteman" so I would presume she would favor the styles she > knew how to make. The coastal Indians they spent so much time around during > that winter at Ft. Clatsop didn't wear buckskin/Indian dressed leather > because of the continual damp. Their clothing (when they wore any) was made > of natural fibers and what was traded to them by coastal European traders. > Sacajawea would have replaced her clothing and that of Pomp by making it as > she was used to making it and from the dressed elk and perhaps deer hides > brought in by Lewis and Clark's men. > > She might have been influenced by the Columbia Plateau Indians they came in > contact with such as the Yakimas (if they met any) certainly the Nez Perce > and perhaps other lesser tribes in that area and may have traded for > clothing made by them but these tribes' styles and methods still weren't > that different than the Plains Indian tribes from which Sacajawea sprung > from. > > > 2. Would she have been wrapped in a blanket around the waist as deemed > proper > > That is quite likely but who can say she was or wasn't? If that is something > she and her adopted tribe and her "mother tribe" did, then likely she would. > Without trade blankets what would they have used? > > > 3. What kind of saddle if any might she of been riding. > > I'm not sure what the Corps had available at that point but if they had > European saddles by then, it could have been such. Otherwise I would imagine > she either rode without a saddle or rode using the common type of Indian > saddle and certainly the tribes they traveled through would have such if > they used them at all that far back. In that case she would have used what > was available or nothing. > > > 4. What kind of horse, size etc > > The horses were what the Corps traded for on the east side and what might > have been provided by the Nez Perce. I'm not sure they had established a > clear appaloosa by that point but probably. I'm under the impression that > the Plains tribes used the Spanish Barb. > > > 5. Any type of bridle > > Whatever the Indians used or what the Corps still had in inventory. > > > 6. Moccasin type > > Likely the same type as used by the Shoshone or the tribe she had been > bought out of. It's always possible she might have picked up on the styles > used by the Nez Perce but I think more likely she made what she knew how to > make. That's anything from center seam/pucker toes with a vamp and high > sides to a side seam with high sides. > > > > 7. What might of Pomp been wearing for clothing > > Whatever kids of that age were dressed in by her people. What was that? > > > 8. Would her dress have any decoration on it, beads or quills or plain > > Who knows. I would think that she might have had access to some beads and > maybe quills that might have been worked at Ft. Clatsop, but for traveling > it is just as likely that there was no adornment or very little. And the > beads in inventory were to be used to influence the various Tribes, not to > hand out to an Indian woman in the expedition. > > > 9 A tacked leather belt, rawhide belt or no belt > > Again, it depends on fashion for her and her people. Did she have the tacks > to use? Were they even being applied to leather belts commonly by her people > or the people she had been captured by at that time. Otherwise it might have > been a decorated or undecorated rawhide belt or sash. I would suspect she > had something on though. > > > > 10. Any knife, awl case, strike a light or any bags on belt > > One would think so, especially if that was common from her experience. > > > 11. Hair loose or maybe braided or tied back > > Loose is not practical on the move and probably not that practical in camp. > I'd bet it was braided in two braids. > > > 12. A buffalo hide over saddle or a wool blanket or what if anything > > If it was available, there would have been some sort of cover to sit on. But > how much riding did she do? I guess if everyone was riding, she did too. And > they would have used whatever they had. Do the journals mention apishamores > and saddles at that point? > > > > > I have my own opinions but did not express them at the time as he was > > quite excited about the bronze. B ut I was curious as for horse gear > > they might of had. > > So what are your opinions? <G> > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 22:49:31 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Damascus barrels Hallo the List, I'm in dire need of a good set of old Damascus 12ga barrels. Please e-mail me off list if you have some for sale.... Thanks, Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #1007 ******************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.