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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #100 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Saturday, July 11 1998 Volume 01 : Number 100 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 21:48:34 +0000 From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brown's Hole Tom, Cache valley is north of Salt Lake on the Bear River. Brown's Hole is on the green River. Hope this helps. Hardtack = Randy _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 03:12:22 EDT From: <KPMTNMAN@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brown's Hole <where is Cache Valley?> According to the Journal of a Trapper edited by Aubrey L Haines, (ISBN 0-8032-5166-1), Cache Valley is located along the Bear River where it crosses the Idaho/Utah border. He uses Chittendon and Ferris, as well as Peter Skene Ogden's notes as references to locate it and tell how it got its name. Hope that helps. KP ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 22:41:31 -0700 From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brown's Hole This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------5D7C04F36F686C3A0B2FD0EE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom' I found this info on Browns Hole or Browns Park on Infoseek. I haven't found anything about Cache Valley other than I have an impression that the name was given to many different places where a cache of some type was left. Pierre's Hole has a local spot by the name Cache because of a cache of supplies left by Fontenelle on his way into the 1832 Rendezvous that was made at that location. I don't mean to say that Pierre's Hole is also known as Cache Valley but that the term was widely used. Someone else may know of a more correct location for Cache Valley but where it may be excapes me at this time. If you have trouble bringing up the attachment, and can't find it on Infoseek, consider the following: The valley is located in exteme northeastern UT.,northwestern Colorado, and south-central WY. The Green river flows through the park and provided access to the area for the first Americans who traveled through the park. Some claim it was named for Baptist Brown, a French-Canadian fur trapper who arrived in 1827, while others clam that Baptiste Brown was an alias for Jean-Baptiste Chalifoux. A few argue that Brown is a fictional character invented long after Browns Park was named, and that the name comes from the brown physical appearance of the valley. (there is more on the attachement). Enjoy. YMOS Capt. Lahti Tomactor@aol.com wrote: > I've been doing a lot of reading lately about the early fur trade. I know > where Pierr'e's Hole, Jackson Hole, and the Three Forks, but I can't seem to > locate Brown's Hole or Cache Valley. Anyone want to help out a greenhorn? > > Thanks, > > Tom Laidlaw - --------------5D7C04F36F686C3A0B2FD0EE Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="BROWNSPARK.html" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="BROWNSPARK.html" Content-Base: "file:///D|/BROWNSPARK.html" <html><head></head><body>BROWNS PARK Browns Park, originally named Brown's Hole, is an isolated valley, thirty-five miles long and five to six miles wide. It is bounded on the south by Diamond Mountain, a part of the Uinta Mountains, and on the north by Cold Spring Mountain. The valley is located in extreme northeastern Utah, northwestern Colorado, and south-central Wyoming. The Green River flows through the park and provided access to the area for the first Americans who traveled through the park. Accounts of how Brown's Hole was named vary. Some claim it was named for Baptiste Brown, a French-Canadian fur trapper who arrived in 1827, while others claim that Baptiste Brown was an alias for Jean-Baptiste Chalifoux. A few argue that Brown is a fictional character invented long after Browns Park was named, and that the name comes from the brown physical appearance of the valley. The first recorded visit to Browns Park was in 1825 by William Ashley and a group of fur trappers who floated down the Green River through Brown's Hole in bull boats made from hides. After that, many fur trappers and mountain men visited Brown's Hole; the list included Kit Carson, Joe Meeks, Jack Robinson, the Ceran St. Vrain party from Taos, New Mexico, who spent the winter of 1827-28 in Brown's Hole, and the Alexander Sinclair party who wintered there in 1831-32. Later, in 1837, William Craig, Philip Thompson, and a man named Sinclair established a trading post, known as Fort Davey Crockett, in Brown's Hole. Explorer John Wesley Powell passed through the area during his first expedition in 1869 and began to refer it as "Brown's Park," a more appropriate and attractive name for the basin. The more mild winters of the location made it popular with the Indians and the subsequent fur trappers and cattlemen. Its isolation made it a haven for outlaws. The historical record is not clear as to who was the first to bring cattle into Browns Park and who was the first to escape the law by hiding out in its remote location. Quite possibly they were one and the same since the line between cattleman and cattle rustler was often vague. Juan Jose Herrera, a native of New Mexico, and a small group of men arrived in Browns Park in 1870 intending to start a cattle business with cattle taken from herds passing through the area. The following year, George Baggs wintered a herd of 900 Texas cattle in Browns Park. He was so impressed with the spot that he encouraged others to relocate there. By the late 1870s and early 1880s, a number of settlers had taken up land in the area. One of these, John Jarvie, opened a general store/trading post on the north bank of the Green River. The store, with its ferry across the river, served as a way station for travelers. In addition to the store, Jarvie pursued mining ventures and raised cattle and horses. He was murdered while he was alone at his store on 6 July 1909. Today, the Jarvie ranch and store is maintained as a historic site by the Bureau of Land Management and is open to visitors. Cattlemen, cowboys, rustlers, settlers, and outlaws all intermingled in Browns Park, which was, at least through the 1930s, a place, in the words of writer John Rolfe Burroughs, "where the Old West stayed young." Outlaws like Butch Cassidy, the Sundance Kid (Harry Longabaugh), Matt Warner, Elza Lay, Tom Horn Ann Bassett "Queen of the Cattle Rustlers," and many others left their mark on the history of Brown's Park. Today, Browns Park is still used for some cattle grazing, but more important are the recreational activities pursued there, such as hunting, fishing, and river rafting. See: William L. Tennent, John Jarvie of Brown's Park (1981); John Rolfe Burroughs, Where the Old West Stayed Young (1962); Dick and Vivian Dunham, Flaming Gorge Country: The Story of Daggett County, Utah (1977); and Diana Allen Kouris, The Romantic and Notorious History of Brown's Park (1988). Gary Wilder </body></html> - --------------5D7C04F36F686C3A0B2FD0EE-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 13:00:51 -0600 (CST) From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bents Fort >Does anyone have any info regarding the shindig at Bents Fort at the end of >July (24th and 25th)? Can one camp out? Are children welcome? Because of all >the recent brush fires in the Southwest, are they forbidding campfires? How >does a "newbie" work their way into the group of 'reinactors'? Just turn up >wrapped in buffallo skin waving a Winchester? Thanks..I am trying to get my >sons interested in this most fascinating chapter of history,... Yes, I'm going to be there. I am portraying a Bent St. Vrain & Co. trader. Bent's Fort interprets the year 1846, which is the year for which they have the most information. It is also a pivotal year in the fort's history, with the arrival of Kearny's army on the eve of the Mexican War. My wife and two daughters (8 and 11) also do the period and they have been approved to participate, but they opted to sit this one out. As far as I know, campfires are still good to go. There were no Winchesters in 1846, so don't even mention those. I suggest that you go to the event as a public spectator and observe. Ask questions and show your interest. Look me up and I'll be glad to talk to you. Just like being new to anything, it takes time to learn the ways of it. Being a National Park Service living history volunteer is sort of a reward for attaining a level of skill and knowledge, very much like being an Hiverano in the AMM. Both have high standards, but are not unattainable. Some good books to look at to help are David Lavender _Bents Fort_, Bernard DeVoto _Year of Decision 1846_, Josiah Gregg _Commerce of the Prairies_ (Max Moorhead, ed.), State Historical Society of Colorado _Bents Old Fort_, David Weber _The Taos Trappers_, Susan Shelby McGoffin _Down the Santa Fe Trail and into Mexico_ (Stella Drum ed.). Bent's Fort figures so prominently into the history of the Santa Fe Trail, that a study of the Trail would be helpful. A few titles available are: Marc Simmons _The Old Santa Fe Trail_, and _On the Santa Fe Trail_. Marc is the foremost authority of the Santa Fe Trade, with more than two-dozen books on the subject to his credit. Other titles are Mark Gardner _The Mexican Road_, Gregory Franzwa _The Santa Fe Trail Revisited_, and _The Mexican War Correspondence of Richard Smith Elliot_, (Mark Gardner and Marc Simmons, eds.) A good general book on the Southwest Fur Trade is Robert G. Cleland _This Reckless Breed of Men_. All of the above books except Cleland are still in print. All are available at book stores or through interlibrary loan if your library does not have them. For a look at the material culture (clothing and artifacts) of the period, _Book of Buckskinning_ volumes 1-7 are excellent. Vol. 4 has an outstanding chapter on clothing and objects of the SW fur trade era, many photos in that chapter were taken at Bent's Fort. The Museum of the Fur Trade in Chadron, NE (308/432-3843) is one of the most prolific publishers on fur trade era information. Look at the _Mountain Man Sketchbook_ vols 1 and 2, _Feminine Fur Trade Fashions_, and others. Also, the _Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly_ is an excellent resource. To participate in period clothing in Bent's Fort activities you have to be on the National Park Service's list of volunteers. To do that you call the fort at 719/383-5010 and speak to Greg Holt, Chief of Interpretation. If Greg is not available, ask for Dan Brown Among other things, Dan is an expert on Indian sign language. Ask for a VIP (Volunteers In the Parks) application form. It will ask your interests and skills appropriate to the period, as well as your availability. It will also ask you to describe your clothing outfit, and justify each item (in broad terms) by citing sources for the information. Those of you who do the late years of the fur trade era should have no problem being accepted to do in Bent's Fort activities. It may be too late to participate in the event this month if you are not already on the volunteer list, but I suggest you get a form and send it in. You'd be in good company, with people like Jeff Hengesbaugh, Bob Schmidt, Bill Gwaltney, Dan Muldoon, and more than a few AMM members. I am also on lists for other parks like Fort Larned, Kansas (1860s) and Fort Davis (1880s) as well as Civil War sites, but my areas of specialty are frontier commerce and material culture of the 1830s-50s. Good luck, and welcome to the greatest leisure-time activity you can possible have (with one or two exceptions) in a single lifetime. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 21:00:07 -0600 From: "Ron" <cstmzd@ida.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Fabrics Hello the list! In Book of Buckskinning VII they talk about "A fine pair of blue denim, narrow front-panel trousers, attributed to the 1820's......." Would this fabric be the same as todays blue denim? I'm not talking about Levi's but the soft denim in fabric stores. Was cotton broadcloth used in the mid 1830's? What would the recommended fabric for this time frame be, for cloth trousers and breeches? Thanks in advance, Ron Ron's Idaho Pages <http://www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/> Email <cstmzd@ida.net> \|/ / \ / \ / 0 \ Lonewolf ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 23:09:40 -0400 From: darlene <darlene@mail.sssnet.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OilCloth old fox, as to what is used on modern oilcloth i don't know.a few years back a friend of mine got a really good deal on 3 ft pieces,so i bought enough to make a 9.6x9.6 diamond & had my wife ,which is stitches in tyme sew it up.i had problems with the seams leaking so i bought some bee grease from log cabin in lodi oh & put this on the seams.as for the oil on the cloth i had problems for along time with this getting all over everything it came in contact with.it is very waterproof & hardf to get dry.the only way i ever got it completly dry was with paper towels.i finaly sold the diamond fly,because i did a burn test on a scrape piece, & man what a torch.so just a word of caution (be very careful around open flames & watch the sparks from the fire)At 11:07 AM 7/3/98 EDT, you wrote: >A while back we discussed diamond shelters and someone posted how to make >oilcloth using linseed oil. I have a different question along the same lines. > >Back in March of this year I obtained enough commercially producted oilcloth >to make a 10X10 diamond. I just got it back from the tentmaker last nite. I >have two questions: > >!. Does anyone know what type of oil is used to make commercial oilcloth? > >2. How does one cure it for use? > >This stuff just dripped oil when still on the bolt. After 4 months, it is >still pretty slick and the stuff gets on your hands and everything it touches. > >OldFox >(expecting a wealth of knowledge from John Kramer, who seems to know >everything) > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 06:09:57 -0500 From: Jeff Powers <kestrel@ticon.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brown's Hole On 1998-07-08 hist_text@lists.xmission.com said to kestrel@ticon.net >Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 170 >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Status: >I've been doing a lot of reading lately about the early fur trade. >I know where Pierr'e's Hole, Jackson Hole, and the Three Forks, but >I can't seem to locate Brown's Hole or Cache Valley. Anyone want to >help out a greenhorn? >Thanks, >Tom Laidlaw THE EARLY FUR TRADE WAS'NT JACKSON HOLE,ETC. it was Pembina,Fort Vermillion,La Chine,GRAND PORTAGE,and especially Hudson Bay!!! What you are readingis the Hey Day of the fur trade 20-30 years at best on the heels of over 100 years of trade with very little Indian fighting! Because HBC, and The Northwest Company TRADED with the Indians,they didn't go into Indian country as trappers pissing off the natives. THE SHINING TIMES WERE NOT THE EARLY FUR TRADE!!!! Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:52:55 -0500 From: WIDD-Tim Austin (WIDD-Tim Austin) <AustinT@silltcmd-smtp.army.mil> Subject: MtMan-List: Fabrics The denim that was in the 1820's is not the same as anything we have today. All I have seen in museums has one side that is kind of like the weave on the denim of today, but the other side is more of a flannel type looking stuff. As I recall there is or was, not sure which, a place that reproduced denim like it was made, and having seen some of that it is really good quality stuff. Again, sorry I do not remember who makes it, but know a person that got some of the stuff in green and made a great looking pair of pants. Good luck. Tim Austin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:53:21 -0500 From: "LEE D SMITHSON" <DRANNAN@prodigy.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Drannan, pseduo frontier comrade of kit carson This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BDAC01.B7DE8400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a book, "Frontier Legend", Texas Finale of Capt. Wm. F. Drannan, = Pseduo Frontier Comrade of Kit Carson, based on research, by W. N. Bate, = published by Owen G. Dunn Company, Publishers, New Bern North Carolina = in 1954, which goes into detail why the Drannan books were not factual. = According to him, the books were probably written by Drannan's wife and = he peddled them all over. This book shows photographs of Drannan, his = grave site, etc. He died in 1913. My uncle was born in 1912 and his = middle name was Drannan. He was named after a character in a book and I = assume it was after William F. Drannan. I was named Drannan after my = uncle when I was born inn 1937. Sincerely, Lee Drannan Smithson - ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BDAC01.B7DE8400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV>I have a book, "Frontier = Legend",=20 Texas Finale of Capt. Wm. F. Drannan, Pseduo Frontier Comrade of Kit = Carson,=20 based on research, by W. N. Bate, published by Owen G. Dunn Company, = Publishers,=20 New Bern North Carolina in 1954, which goes into detail why the Drannan = books=20 were not factual. According to him, the books were probably = written by=20 Drannan's wife and he peddled them all over. This book shows = photographs=20 of Drannan, his grave site, etc. He died in 1913. My uncle = was born=20 in 1912 and his middle name was Drannan. He was named after a = character in=20 a book and I assume it was after William F. Drannan. I was named = Drannan=20 after my uncle when I was born inn 1937. = Sincerely, Lee=20 Drannan Smithson</DIV></BODY></HTML> - ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BDAC01.B7DE8400-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:20:51 EDT From: <ThisOldFox@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OilCloth In a message dated 98-07-09 23:36:32 EDT, you write: > old fox, as to what is used on modern oilcloth i don't know. > i had problems with the seams leaking so i bought some bee grease I had two 10 ft. X 60 in. pieces. Sewn together, they came out real nice, for a 10 X10 shelter. I only had one seam down the middle that was double- everlapped for waterproofness. Also, the person who did the sewing used a new self-sealing cotton thread to prevent the seams from leaking. I had a 6X6 inch piece of elkhide sewn in the center of it, for the pole to rest against. I am real happy with the results. > as for the oil on the > cloth i had problems for along time with this getting all over everything > it came in contact with.it is very waterproof & hardf to get dry.the only > way i ever got it completly dry was with paper towels. It has been hanging from the old oak tree from a rope for almost two weeks now. Been through several storms, and temps from 50 to 96, and it looks exactly like it did when I hung it, except where the leather patch was. The leather sucked all the oil out of that square of mateial. I suspect I will have to cover the whole thing with newspaper, roll it tight, and let the paper suck the oil out of it. OldFox ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:33:46 -0500 From: "Scott Allen" <allen@blueridge-ef.SAIC.COM> Subject: MtMan-List: gone for awhile Hello the list(s) I'm getting ready to go to "postpone" mode for a couple of weeks. Heading out to the Last Frontier. I will be in Alaska for two weeks and then will rejoin y'all when I return. See you then and take care. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 14:35:47 -0500 (CDT) From: pwjones@onr.com Subject: MtMan-List: 1870's era packaging Dear List: I have a friend who participates in 1870's Indian Wars reenacting. Does anyone have any suggestions as to where he might find information as to "packaging" for items traded on the frontier of that era? Appreciate any suggestions. Regards, Paul W. Jones ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #100 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.