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hist_text-digest         Sunday, June 7 1998         Volume 01 : Number 081




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 20:21:55 -0700
From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!

Forgive me for weighing in a second time on this topic, and I certainly mean no
disrespect for HBC, but I would like to enter into the discussion the ability
of a larger caliber frontstuffer rifle (or gun for that matter!!) to be lightly
loaded for a young shooter.  This all but eliminates recoil and will still
shoot surprisingly well.  My 54 cal. Lyman Plains Rifle will shoot VERY well
even with a particularly young or inexperienced shooter in the 30 and 40 grain
loads of Pyrodex and .535 ball/.015 patch; with almost no kick, very acceptable
accuracy for a beginner, and the ability to move up to heavier loads and very
good "Hawken"  historical accuracy later as needed.   Granted that a young teen
will struggle packing a nine pound rifle over very many miles hunting, it
remains my favorite "factory rifle", particularly when customized from the
inexpensive kit form.  This .54 cal. rifle will serve all the way from
beginning shooter on the range to big game hunter or historically "correct"
reenacter for the American Fur Trade era you mentioned.

Starting with a .40 cal rifle will also be fine at the start, but might well
leave the shooter with an inferiority complex later.  I grant you that lots of
smaller caliber rifles served very well in historic times, and still can do
their magic today, including increasing the stress on making a single shot
count in hunting -- I still feel that the idea of loading each and every
frontstuffer shot to suit the shooter and the target opens up the larger
calibers to beginning shooters in ways cartrige shooters can only envy.

Night Heron
(aka Gary Bell)

Henry B. Crawford wrote:

> .45, or .50, makes little difference to adults, but for a 12 year old kid,
> .40 is a good caliber to start with, especially since he is just beginning.
> .40 cal is also historically accurate for a period when standard calibers
> were not the rule.  There were plenty .40s out there "back then."
>
> I say let the kid learn with a .40, then graduate to something else.  If I
> read his question correctly, we're not talking about going out and hunting
> befiore the basics are learned.  We're talking about learning the basics of
> shooting and firearm safety.  For that a .40 is adequate.   When the
> hunting phase begins, after he becomes proficient, then maybe an upgrade is
> in order.  I think a .40 for a 12 year old beginner is clearly a judicious
> choice made by a thoughtful parent.
>
> IMHO
> HBC
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 00:04:31 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Tail  Shooting Pouch

good talking to you and will ship your pattern and buckel out monday--
will look thru the garage and see if i have the pattern and will ship it
too if i find it-.  last copy of instructions so please return when you
are done with it--good hunting and good buckskinning---keep your nose to
the wind and your eyes along the skyline---

YMHOSANT

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 01:18:22 -0400
From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!

Gary Bell wrote:
>
> Forgive me for weighing in a second time on this topic, and I certainly mean no
> disrespect for HBC, but I would like to enter into the discussion the ability
> of a larger caliber frontstuffer rifle (or gun for that matter!!) to be lightly
> loaded for a young shooter.  This all but eliminates recoil and will still
> shoot surprisingly well.  My 54 cal. Lyman Plains Rifle will shoot VERY well
> even with a particularly young or inexperienced shooter in the 30 and 40 grain
> loads of Pyrodex and .535 ball/.015 patch; with almost no kick, very acceptable

[snip]

Just a caution, Gary.  Pyrodex is MUCH, MUCH more corrosive than black,
and since the topic is teaching youngsters, I'll mention that there is
cyanide released with every shot, as well as from unburned powder.  Take
a look at the Pyro. patent sometime....it's a real "eye opener."

Regards,

Fred

- --
"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the
rights of ordinary Americans ..."

Bill Clinton  (USA TODAY, 11 March 1993, page 2A)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 23:13:55 -0700
From: Gary Bell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!

Hi Fred!

Hmmm, I have never investigated the chemistry of Pyrodex, and I must confess, I have
never tried real BP!  I got started with some book advice about both, and advice from
the local specialty frontstuffer shop where I found both of my Lyman rifles that
Pyrodex was the only choice for ease of cleaning and corrosion issues too.  I have
the usual issues with cleaning that I think we all have, and I have developed my own
sense and experience about cleaning and corrosion.  I have a pretty good education in
biology and in chemistry and will check out the cyanide vs sulfide toxicity issue,
thanks for the timely input.  I have taught university classes in mammalian
physiology and have a strong recollection about the relative toxicity of cyanide and
sulfide compounds, this shouldn't be that hard to check out.  I have some trouble
with the notion that a product that produces toxic amounts of cyanide in normal usage
is available without warning or government control, so that aspect of your message
will get prompt attention.

The next moves are mine:  I should run up a series of shots with Goex and with
Pyrodex, so I have my own experience to draw upon; and I should also check out the
toxicity issue you brought to our attention.

Are any of the rest of the list available to input the discussion on these two
issues?

By the way, both of my rigs are percussion locks, so the issues covered on this list
about flinter ignition with either propellant are not as significant for me.  I have
always found a plugged nipple, leftover oil from storage, or no powder behind the
ball and patch when I had a failure to fire.

I enjoy any excuse to go squirt some balls downrange, so thanks for the incentive!
To be honest, I enjoy the research challenge too.

Night Heron
aka Gary Bell

Fred A. Miller wrote:

> Gary Bell wrote:
> >
> > Forgive me for weighing in a second time on this topic, and I certainly mean no
> > disrespect for HBC, but I would like to enter into the discussion the ability
> > of a larger caliber frontstuffer rifle (or gun for that matter!!) to be lightly
> > loaded for a young shooter.  This all but eliminates recoil and will still
> > shoot surprisingly well.  My 54 cal. Lyman Plains Rifle will shoot VERY well
> > even with a particularly young or inexperienced shooter in the 30 and 40 grain
> > loads of Pyrodex and .535 ball/.015 patch; with almost no kick, very acceptable
>
> [snip]
>
> Just a caution, Gary.  Pyrodex is MUCH, MUCH more corrosive than black,
> and since the topic is teaching youngsters, I'll mention that there is
> cyanide released with every shot, as well as from unburned powder.  Take
> a look at the Pyro. patent sometime....it's a real "eye opener."
>
> Regards,
>
> Fred

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 09:58:37 -0400
From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!

Gary Bell wrote:
>
> Hi Fred!
>
> Hmmm, I have never investigated the chemistry of Pyrodex, and I must confess, I have
> never tried real BP!  I got started with some book advice about both, and advice from
> the local specialty frontstuffer shop where I found both of my Lyman rifles that
> Pyrodex was the only choice for ease of cleaning and corrosion issues too.  I have

Well, sorry, but it's BAD information.  Pyro. will also "eat" the breech
UNburned, so a loaded rifle is slowly being destroyed while you're out
hunting a deer.  The "nasty" ingredient is potassium perchlorate, and
Pyro. is made of 19% p.p.

> the usual issues with cleaning that I think we all have, and I have developed my own
> sense and experience about cleaning and corrosion.  I have a pretty good education in
> biology and in chemistry and will check out the cyanide vs sulfide toxicity issue,
> thanks for the timely input.  I have taught university classes in mammalian
> physiology and have a strong recollection about the relative toxicity of cyanide and
> sulfide compounds, this shouldn't be that hard to check out.  I have some trouble
> with the notion that a product that produces toxic amounts of cyanide in normal usage
> is available without warning or government control, so that aspect of your message
> will get prompt attention.

ANY amount of cyanide is too much, IMHO.

> The next moves are mine:  I should run up a series of shots with Goex and with
> Pyrodex, so I have my own experience to draw upon; and I should also check out the
> toxicity issue you brought to our attention.

2 other black powders are more consistant, produce less fouling, and
have less sodium nitrate in the fouling because they DON'T use a
fertilizer grade nitrate.  They are Elephant and the WANO "P" grades.
The latter may be hard to find, but Elephant should be easily
obtainable.

> Are any of the rest of the list available to input the discussion on these two
> issues?
>
> By the way, both of my rigs are percussion locks, so the issues covered on this list
> about flinter ignition with either propellant are not as significant for me.  I have
> always found a plugged nipple, leftover oil from storage, or no powder behind the
> ball and patch when I had a failure to fire.

Pyro. will ignight with percussion, but NOT flint.  Pyro. is also MUCH
more hygroscopic than black.

> I enjoy any excuse to go squirt some balls downrange, so thanks for the incentive!
> To be honest, I enjoy the research challenge too.

GOOD!  Since you like doing the research, you'll find the cyanide in a
compound used in the "mix."  Properly described, Pyrodex is a pyrotecnic
mixture.

Regards,

Fred

- --
"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the
rights of ordinary Americans ..."

Bill Clinton  (USA TODAY, 11 March 1993, page 2A)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 10:35:39 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!

WHY ARE YOU EVEN SUGGESTING THE USE OF PYRODIX---MY FEELINGS ARE IF I USE
PYRODIX THEN I NEED TO GO OUT AND GET ME SOME PINK NOGGIEHIDE BUCKSKINS
TO WEAR SO THAT I CAN FEEL RIGHT AT HOME.

THIS WHOLE DISCUSSION HAS GOTTEN OFF THE BASIC INITIAL QUESTION OF WHERE
CAN THEY FIND INFORMATION AND A VIDEO ON THE PROPER USE AND MAINTENANCE
AND CARE AND FEEDING OF A BLACK POWDER FIREARM THAT A  14 YEAR OLD CAN
UNDERSTAND.


      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]

On Sun, 07 Jun 1998 09:58:37 -0400 "Fred A. Miller"
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Gary Bell wrote:
>>
>> Hi Fred!
>>
>> Hmmm, I have never investigated the chemistry of Pyrodex, and I must
>confess, I have
>> never tried real BP!  I got started with some book advice about
>both, and advice from
>> the local specialty frontstuffer shop where I found both of my Lyman
>rifles that
>> Pyrodex was the only choice for ease of cleaning and corrosion
>issues too.  I have
>
>Well, sorry, but it's BAD information.  Pyro. will also "eat" the
>breech
>UNburned, so a loaded rifle is slowly being destroyed while you're out
>hunting a deer.  The "nasty" ingredient is potassium perchlorate, and
>Pyro. is made of 19% p.p.
>
>> the usual issues with cleaning that I think we all have, and I have
>developed my own
>> sense and experience about cleaning and corrosion.  I have a pretty
>good education in
>> biology and in chemistry and will check out the cyanide vs sulfide
>toxicity issue,
>> thanks for the timely input.  I have taught university classes in
>mammalian
>> physiology and have a strong recollection about the relative
>toxicity of cyanide and
>> sulfide compounds, this shouldn't be that hard to check out.  I have
>some trouble
>> with the notion that a product that produces toxic amounts of
>cyanide in normal usage
>> is available without warning or government control, so that aspect
>of your message
>> will get prompt attention.
>
>ANY amount of cyanide is too much, IMHO.
>
>> The next moves are mine:  I should run up a series of shots with
>Goex and with
>> Pyrodex, so I have my own experience to draw upon; and I should also
>check out the
>> toxicity issue you brought to our attention.
>
>2 other black powders are more consistant, produce less fouling, and
>have less sodium nitrate in the fouling because they DON'T use a
>fertilizer grade nitrate.  They are Elephant and the WANO "P" grades.
>The latter may be hard to find, but Elephant should be easily
>obtainable.
>
>> Are any of the rest of the list available to input the discussion on
>these two
>> issues?
>>
>> By the way, both of my rigs are percussion locks, so the issues
>covered on this list
>> about flinter ignition with either propellant are not as significant
>for me.  I have
>> always found a plugged nipple, leftover oil from storage, or no
>powder behind the
>> ball and patch when I had a failure to fire.
>
>Pyro. will ignight with percussion, but NOT flint.  Pyro. is also MUCH
>more hygroscopic than black.
>
>> I enjoy any excuse to go squirt some balls downrange, so thanks for
>the incentive!
>> To be honest, I enjoy the research challenge too.
>
>GOOD!  Since you like doing the research, you'll find the cyanide in a
>compound used in the "mix."  Properly described, Pyrodex is a
>pyrotecnic
>mixture.
>
>Regards,
>
>Fred
>
>--
>"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the
>rights of ordinary Americans ..."
>
>Bill Clinton  (USA TODAY, 11 March 1993, page 2A)
>
>
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 13:30:05 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!

In a message dated 98-06-06 23:25:01 EDT, you write:

<< Forgive me for weighing in a second time on this topic, and I certainly
mean no
 disrespect for HBC, but I would like to enter into the discussion the ability
 of a larger caliber frontstuffer rifle (or gun for that matter!!) to be
lightly
 loaded for a young shooter.  This all but eliminates recoil and will still
 shoot surprisingly well.

I think you're addressing my comment about recoil.  True, a G/P CAN be lightly
loaded & give surprising accuracy at short range -- I have one in .50
percussion that does very well with 25 gr FF.  It does much better at 50 gr
with very little recoil.  Even at my hunting charge of 100 gr the recoil is
fairly light.  That particular rifle handles the heavy loading very nicely as
do most of the truer Hawkin designs.  Their weight & stock design was built
for it.  You're absolutely correct in saying a front stuffer's ability to
handle & be loaded with various charges makes more versitile for the beginning
shooter.

  Your later comment about a young teen toting a 9 lb rifle then becomes the
primary objection.  With the heavier calibers, comes a heavier barrel.  True,
I've seen a .50 bore in a 13/16" barrel, but that's AWFULLY thin & it's a
custom made barrel.  I recently scored a young teen through our rifle course
at our Rondy.  He was toting what looked like a Tradition or CVA .50 that was
just too much rifle for him.  He battled with that heavy piece all the way.
It was so heavy for him, he had to swing it up into position then struggle to
hold it.  When he'd tire a bit, he's switch fron shooting left handed to right
handed & vice versa.  To make matters worse, his dad had given him the wrong
size ball & by the time he had it started in the muzzle, it was no longer a
round ball, but a "wadcutter".  Definitely a bad scene!  This is the type
thing that will discourage a youngster & is exactly what we're hoping to
avoid.  I'll give this young man credit -- he finished the 20 shot course &
even managed to hit 3 targets.  He did better than my granddaughters did --
they were using the modified Pedersoli .45 my wife uses that weighs 6lbs, only
has 26" Orion barrel & a 12 1/2" pull & at 40 gr FFF is a real joy to shoot --
or it was until I shortened the pull.  I've only shot it once since I
shortened it up for her & it whacked my nose 'cuz it don't EVEN fit me any
more.  One granddaughter made 5 shots & the other 9, but it was their first
time & I think they bit off more than they expected.  We realy need to
encourage our young teens by not punishing them with a rifle that kicks or is
so heavy they just can't handle it.  Unfortunately very few manufacturers are
building "kid" & "women" rifles.  Dixie Gun Works makes the "Cub", but it's
barrel leaves a bit to be desired.  T/C makes the Senica, but it's design
doesn't fit into a true period rifle peramiter.  I've only seen the one
Pedersoli we have that was built for kids & women.  Not all fathers/
husbands/grandfathers have the ability to re-barrel & cut stocks, so that
leaves us with having an existing rifle modified by a competant gunsmith or
having a custom rifle built.  Doing that for the wife is one thing when we
know it's going to be her rifle for a long time, but doing it for a teen who's
going to out grow it in 2 - 4 years ---- well -- that's a problem.  I wish
there was a way to build an adjustable stock.  Maybe the solution is to buy
the $100 Traditions & CVA's to modify until they quit growing then get them a
GOOD rifle.  Those of us who have built small rifles for our kids/grandkids/
wives should be more generous in passing them down to future shooters we know.
Remember -- they're OUR future in keeping this sport we love alive into the
next 100 years.

In the powder expiraments you've been discussing with Fred -- look at flash
points too.  This should explain the problem with Pyrodex & flint locks.

NM


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 14:26:59 -0500
From: "Keith Garber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:  Won some ,lost most

Gary,
    Pyrodex will work in pan of my trade gun. On a stationary target with shot
,Its a bit slow ,but works .Keith(one of those Pyro users for @20 years)

- ----------
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 15:43:36 -0400
From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:  Won some ,lost most

Keith Garber wrote:
>
> Gary,
>         Pyrodex will work in pan of my trade gun. On a stationary target with shot
> ,Its a bit slow ,but works .Keith(one of those Pyro users for @20 years)

We were talking about Pyro. in the bore, not the pan.

Fred

- --
"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the
rights of ordinary Americans ..."

Bill Clinton  (USA TODAY, 11 March 1993, page 2A)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 15:52:45 -0400
From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 98-06-06 23:25:01 EDT, you write:

[snip]

> In the powder expiraments you've been discussing with Fred -- look at flash
> points too.  This should explain the problem with Pyrodex & flint locks.

Quite right!  Pyro's ignition temp. is quite a bit higher than black,
thus
it may or may not ignight in the pan, but almost certain not to ignight
in
the bore.  It's amazing that some will pay 2 to 3 times as much than
black
for something that turns to goo in high humidity, loves to destroy good
steel, and spews poisonous fumes!

Regards,

Fred

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 18:08:38 EDT
From: [e-mail] (Ted A Hart)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Tail  Shooting Pouch

You sent the wrong e-mail to the wrong person.  But it was nice to hear
from ya :)

Ted

On Sun, 7 Jun 1998 00:04:31 -0400 [e-mail] (Michael Pierce)
writes:
>good talking to you and will ship your pattern and buckel out monday--
>will look thru the garage and see if i have the pattern and will ship
>it too if i find it-.  last copy of instructions so please return when
>you are done with it--good hunting and good buckskinning---keep your
>nose to the wind and your eyes along the skyline---
>
>YMHOSANT
>
>      "Hawk"
>Michael Pierce
>854 Glenfield Dr.
>Palm Harbor, florida   34684
>1-[phone]
>_____________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get
>completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno
>at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 17:37:02 -0700
From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Mtman-list:Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner!

Thought I'd put in my two cents.  I started shooting BP In 1990 When I
was 18, and I think many of the issues I faced would be the same for a
child of  twelve.  Find a gun that he could lug around comfortably of
45, 50, or 54, Cal.  Why go smaller than 45 when the weight Difference
is negligable and in most states you can take a deer with a 45 caliber,
and not with anything smaller. I did not shoot with experienced shooters
so any problems I had took a while to figure out.  Either you read and
ask questions to find answers or find experienced shooters to shoot with
your kid.  Also, double check advice cause some "old timers" give you a
whole mess of opinion and myth along with their good advice.  I wouldnt
suggest a flinter for a first gun, because they just take more fiddlin
with, and more experience to get shootin right, unless your kid is very
responsible and methodic about what he is doing.  And whatever you get,
Get a good lock!  My first gun was an ugly CVA 45 That was a tack
driver, when it went off.  The lock was junk and I had many misfires
till I changed locks.  If I had bought a quality gun to start with I
would have had much less trouble, and frustration.  For an inexpensive
storebought starter gun, a Thompson Center can't be beat as far as I am
concerned.  I am frankly quite abusive to that gun and I have probably
only had 3 misfires  with it. If it breaks, send it back and theyll fix
it or replace it.  As for powder, I started with pyrodex but I found
that BP allows you a little more leeway on cleaning and corrosion and
Pyrodex just does not go off every time.  Finally, if your kid wants to
be a buckskinner, and you are serious about letting him do it, You have
to become a Buckskinner.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 17:42:43 -0700
From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Southwest supplies and clothes

Hey, does anyone know of a good source for patterns, clothing and
accoutrements like those in "Styles of the Southwest" Book of
Buckskinning 4.  I'm really interested in a pattern for a short new
mexican jacket or for one to buy.

------------------------------

Date: 07 Jun 98 16:48:14 +0000
From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner.!

I thinkd Mike Katona said it best.  Why are we going for substitutes,
when the original works so well?  Breaintanning is just about as easy as you
are going to get.  The work is in preparing the hide, not what you use to
tan it.  Pyrodex doesn't offer any advantages over black powder.  It still
needs cleaning the same as bp, doesn't offer any gains in velocity and
darns sure smells worse.  If we stick to the old ways ourselves then we
should be teaching the new comers the old ways too.  Basicly, they worked then
and they still work now.  Forget the substitutes, and remember, if it
ain't broke, don't fix it.  If the old ways worked, use them.


DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS --- PROPRIETORS OF THE NADA TRADING COMPANY

Fred A. Miller wrote:
>Gary Bell wrote:
>>
>> Hi Fred!
>>
>> Hmmm, I have never investigated the chemistry of Pyrodex, and I must
>confess, I have
>> never tried real BP!  I got started with some book advice about both,
and
>advice from
>> the local specialty frontstuffer shop where I found both of my Lyman
>rifles that
>> Pyrodex was the only choice for ease of cleaning and corrosion issues
>too.  I have
>
>Well, sorry, but it's BAD information.  Pyro. will also "eat" the breech
>UNburned, so a loaded rifle is slowly being destroyed while you're out
>hunting a deer.  The "nasty" ingredient is potassium perchlorate, and
>Pyro. is made of 19% p.p.
>
>> the usual issues with cleaning that I think we all have, and I have
>developed my own
>> sense and experience about cleaning and corrosion.  I have a pretty
good
>education in
>> biology and in chemistry and will check out the cyanide vs sulfide
>toxicity issue,
>> thanks for the timely input.  I have taught university classes in
mammalian
>> physiology and have a strong recollection about the relative toxicity
of
>cyanide and
>> sulfide compounds, this shouldn't be that hard to check out.  I have
some
>trouble
>> with the notion that a product that produces toxic amounts of cyanide
in
>normal usage
>> is available without warning or government control, so that aspect of
>your message
>> will get prompt attention.
>
>ANY amount of cyanide is too much, IMHO.
>
>> The next moves are mine:  I should run up a series of shots with Goex
and with
>> Pyrodex, so I have my own experience to draw upon; and I should also
>check out the
>> toxicity issue you brought to our attention.
>
>2 other black powders are more consistant, produce less fouling, and
>have less sodium nitrate in the fouling because they DON'T use a
>fertilizer grade nitrate.  They are Elephant and the WANO "P" grades.
>The latter may be hard to find, but Elephant should be easily
>obtainable.
>
>> Are any of the rest of the list available to input the discussion on
these two
>> issues?
>>
>> By the way, both of my rigs are percussion locks, so the issues
covered
>on this list
>> about flinter ignition with either propellant are not as significant
for
>me.  I have
>> always found a plugged nipple, leftover oil from storage, or no powder

>behind the
>> ball and patch when I had a failure to fire.
>
>Pyro. will ignight with percussion, but NOT flint.  Pyro. is also MUCH
>more hygroscopic than black.
>
>> I enjoy any excuse to go squirt some balls downrange, so thanks for
the
>incentive!
>> To be honest, I enjoy the research challenge too.
>
>GOOD!  Since you like doing the research, you'll find the cyanide in a
>compound used in the "mix."  Properly described, Pyrodex is a pyrotecnic
>mixture.
>
>Regards,
>
>Fred
>
>--
>"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the
>rights of ordinary Americans ..."
>
>Bill Clinton  (USA TODAY, 11 March 1993, page 2A)
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Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 21:17:15 -0500
From: "Ken " <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner.!

Finally! Common sense prevails! Here we are giving advice to this young man
and his father that is 180 degrees off what we all profess to love anyway.
I read the posting by Chris Sega and was delighted at his common sense
answers. He is right in saying that if this young man has a rifle too heavy
and has to struggle to even hit the paper he will in all probability get
discouraged and give up before he gets started. All of us would love to see
him start with the "perfect" gun and all the "period correct" gear, but
isn't the main thing to help him get off to a good start? I started with a
Thompson Center rifle as well and "graduated" to a Green River Rifle Works
rifle after the 1974 "rondy". I think the suggestion to get a TC in 45 cal.
is an excellent idea. Light enough and if he has to get the stock altered,
so what? A replacement stock is cheap enough and makes the gun OK for
resale. I have to agree with the comments about the smell of Pyro too.
Stuff smells terrible.
I know some of you will think that this old man is wrong in this, but I can
remember my start in the spring of 1974 very well. I only wish this young
man had someone like Wolf Smither to help him as well. Thanks to Wolf, I
put all my efforts into my clothing and accoutrements so I could make it to
my first rendezvous at Henry's Fork in July that same year. Nothing beats
the hands on experience surrounded by old hands at buckskinning who are
willing to help a greenhorn with his gear. Instead of all this talk about
powders and period perfect rifles, why don't we all help this young man
gather the clothing and such so he can have the same experience. One good
rendezvous and he will be off and running!
YMOS,
YellowFeather





- ----------
> From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
> To: hist_text <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner.!
> Date: Sunday, June 07, 1998 11:48 AM
>
> I thinkd Mike Katona said it best.  Why are we going for substitutes,
> when the original works so well?  Breaintanning is just about as easy as
you
> are going to get.  The work is in preparing the hide, not what you use to
> tan it.  Pyrodex doesn't offer any advantages over black powder.  It
still
> needs cleaning the same as bp, doesn't offer any gains in velocity and
> darns sure smells worse.  If we stick to the old ways ourselves then we
> should be teaching the new comers the old ways too.  Basicly, they worked
then
> and they still work now.  Forget the substitutes, and remember, if it
> ain't broke, don't fix it.  If the old ways worked, use them.
>
>
> DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS --- PROPRIETORS OF THE NADA TRADING COMPANY
>
> Fred A. Miller wrote:
> >Gary Bell wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Fred!
> >>
> >> Hmmm, I have never investigated the chemistry of Pyrodex, and I must
> >confess, I have
> >> never tried real BP!  I got started with some book advice about both,
> and
> >advice from
> >> the local specialty frontstuffer shop where I found both of my Lyman
> >rifles that
> >> Pyrodex was the only choice for ease of cleaning and corrosion issues
> >too.  I have
> >
> >Well, sorry, but it's BAD information.  Pyro. will also "eat" the breech
> >UNburned, so a loaded rifle is slowly being destroyed while you're out
> >hunting a deer.  The "nasty" ingredient is potassium perchlorate, and
> >Pyro. is made of 19% p.p.
> >
> >> the usual issues with cleaning that I think we all have, and I have
> >developed my own
> >> sense and experience about cleaning and corrosion.  I have a pretty
> good
> >education in
> >> biology and in chemistry and will check out the cyanide vs sulfide
> >toxicity issue,
> >> thanks for the timely input.  I have taught university classes in
> mammalian
> >> physiology and have a strong recollection about the relative toxicity
> of
> >cyanide and
> >> sulfide compounds, this shouldn't be that hard to check out.  I have
> some
> >trouble
> >> with the notion that a product that produces toxic amounts of cyanide
> in
> >normal usage
> >> is available without warning or government control, so that aspect of
> >your message
> >> will get prompt attention.
> >
> >ANY amount of cyanide is too much, IMHO.
> >
> >> The next moves are mine:  I should run up a series of shots with Goex
> and with
> >> Pyrodex, so I have my own experience to draw upon; and I should also
> >check out the
> >> toxicity issue you brought to our attention.
> >
> >2 other black powders are more consistant, produce less fouling, and
> >have less sodium nitrate in the fouling because they DON'T use a
> >fertilizer grade nitrate.  They are Elephant and the WANO "P" grades.
> >The latter may be hard to find, but Elephant should be easily
> >obtainable.
> >
> >> Are any of the rest of the list available to input the discussion on
> these two
> >> issues?
> >>
> >> By the way, both of my rigs are percussion locks, so the issues
> covered
> >on this list
> >> about flinter ignition with either propellant are not as significant
> for
> >me.  I have
> >> always found a plugged nipple, leftover oil from storage, or no powder
>
> >behind the
> >> ball and patch when I had a failure to fire.
> >
> >Pyro. will ignight with percussion, but NOT flint.  Pyro. is also MUCH
> >more hygroscopic than black.
> >
> >> I enjoy any excuse to go squirt some balls downrange, so thanks for
> the
> >incentive!
> >> To be honest, I enjoy the research challenge too.
> >
> >GOOD!  Since you like doing the research, you'll find the cyanide in a
> >compound used in the "mix."  Properly described, Pyrodex is a pyrotecnic
> >mixture.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Fred
> >
> >--
> >"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the
> >rights of ordinary Americans ..."
> >
> >Bill Clinton  (USA TODAY, 11 March 1993, page 2A)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 09:58:37 -0400
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 21:51:10 -0500
From: "Michael Branson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Southwest supplies and clothes

Chris: look for a book published by the Fur Press, PO Box 604, Chadron, Neb.
69337. The book is called "The Monutain Man Sketch Book vol. 1." It has a
pattern for a short Mexican jacket. If you are looking for the later one
that some folks wear. I might suggest the Buffalo Hunters Sketch Book. I
might as well weigh in on the issue of fire arms for youngsters. I agree
with every thing you just posted. I worked as the gunsmith for Luke and
Sally at the Mountain Man Shop for over two years back 20 years ago and what
you said was true even then. The repair work I spent most of my time on 20
years ago was CVA locks and italian revolving pistols. Beware of some old
timers advice as a grey beard doesn't always signify intelligence. But some
old guys do know what they are talking about. You should be careful about
picking the right person to listen too. I admit I 'm prejudiced towards the
NMLRA. I have been a member since one old grey beard named Max Vickory
taught me to load a muzzle loader clear back when I was a younker. Yet, the
NMLRA have been around  since 1933, those old timers whether they wear bib
overalls or buckskin sure seem to know alot about muzzle loaders. You might
make an argument that they spend  alot of their energy on Friendship, but I
have yet to go to any event any where in America that has as much to offer
as a spring shoot at Friendship, Ind. They do have it all. After all these
years of traveling and visiting and camping at all the Rendezvous I have
been to. There is still not quite anything in black powder that excites me
as much as driving into Friendship, Ind on a fine June morning. Just the
sound of all those guns firing and the crowd hurrying around commercial row,
or just looking at two or three fellas grouped together in serious
conversation over a long gun they keep handing around. The sight of tipis
all set up with traders sitting there in front of their camps rather than
sitting on some commercial row. Yep, You might find some living history
group doing the costume thing better, but to those of us who started with
guns before we had tipis or buckskin you can't replace Friendship with a
group of costumed "experts" talking to tourists, nothing against living
history I love it also,  I just feel that each "event"  has its own appeal .
You want to teach a youngster about guns and shooting and buckskinning and
shot guns, and flintlocks, and caplocks and pistols, and trail walks.... go
to Friendship, Ind. Number one: forget the politics of the Rendezvous scene
it has ruint many a good man. Don't turn your nose up on any publication.
Leave the arguuing to the old timers who don't seem to have any thing better
to do except sit around a fire and bitch, you won't usually find them doing
much except looking for another meeting to hold in someone's tipi or
recovering from a hangover griping  around a fire. Sincerely Michael Branson
former politician who learned the hard way. You only live once have a good
time.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
To: Mtnmanlist <[e-mail]>
Date: Sunday, June 07, 1998 7:20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Southwest supplies and clothes


>Hey, does anyone know of a good source for patterns, clothing and
>accoutrements like those in "Styles of the Southwest" Book of
>Buckskinning 4.  I'm really interested in a pattern for a short new
>mexican jacket or for one to buy.
>
>
>

------------------------------

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