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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #75 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Thursday, May 28 1998 Volume 01 : Number 075 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 00:52:58 EDT From: <EmmaPeel2@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Thanks! :) Yes, well, looks like I will have to talk to the folks in Washington REAL nice :) Thanks ,all the input received was very useful. As to St. Vrain's room being haunted...wow, by whom? Thought the poor man died a happy camper in Mora (one too many cigars)..although brother Marcellin did committed suicide, but he is buried way back in Ralls County Missouri... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 01:13:49 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows dont believe the statement about the arrow points and atlatal points being the same size is totally correct. ATlatal points are usually larger since they are more of a spear and usually a bit larger than Arrow which is shot with a bow. the atlatal is a stick that is used to hearl the dart or arrow and is a extention of the arm to get more force and greater distance than a common spear. I dont have all my reference books on arrow heads here at hand so I cannot quote page and verse. The Atlatal was developed before the Bow and arrow and was primarily a spear thrower--- yes some of the atlatal darts were a bit smaller than a average spear and used smaller points but they were still larger than a point used with a bow and arrow most of the time. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Wed, 27 May 1998 18:35:25 -0500 Jeff Powers <kestrel@ticon.net> writes: >On 1998-05-24 hist_text@lists.xmission.com said to kestrel@ticon.net > >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >Precedence: bulk > >Status: > >Does anyone know how far back the bow and arrow goes here in North > >America? It would seems from the archaeological record of > >arrowheads that they must go back quite a ways but I don't recall > >ever seeing any dated info on bows that have been found in >ancient > >burials. Would the points on atlatl (sp) darts be any different > >that those used on bow launched arrows? > >Dennis >ATLatl points are the same as arrow points as far as I've seen. > >Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 22:51:56 -0700 From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Sign Language - --------------BBCF18B38F414B631AEACAC2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Iron Tounge; Try this: Make the sign for ME- Point right thumb at Breast. Make the sign for IRON- (make the sign for HARD) which is , hold out left hand ,thumb up and strike it with right fist two or three times. Then point to something metalic preferably Iron. Make sign for TOUNGE-Protrude tounge from mouth a trifle and touch with first finger of right hand. Make sign for WALK- Extend hands in front of your body palms down and make a walking motion with them as in, first one forward, down and back then the other forward, down and back. This comes from Tomkins book and is a literal translation. Those that know ISL better might discribe the signs differently or proscribe different signs, but I think the above will work. Good luck Iron Tounge and let me know how this turns out. YMOS Capt. Lahti ITWHEELER@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-05-27 13:51:50 EDT, you write: > > << agottfre@telusplanet.net >> > ive ben fired up about this isl for a long time as there is a man in my n-h > thats is deaf mute . i would like to tell him my name is iron tounge that > walks. again ag as if said to all of my friends in list if i have ofended you > withmy crass coments please for give me . im getting more adept at this > computer being self tought and com -ileterat spelling and dangerous to a fault > whit which button to push im getting better. im also dislecsicic spelling . > didnot know tel a few years what was rong with me. i still have problems with > geting the letter in the right order. se you later iron tounge that walks --- > jerry wheeler - --------------BBCF18B38F414B631AEACAC2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML> Iron Tounge; Try this: Make the sign for ME- Point right thumb at Breast. Make the sign for IRON- (make the sign for HARD) which is , hold out left hand ,thumb up and strike it with right fist two or three times. Then point to something metalic preferably Iron. Make sign for TOUNGE-Protrude tounge from mouth a trifle and touch with first finger of right hand. Make sign for WALK- Extend hands in front of your body palms down and make a walking motion with them as in, first one forward, down and back then the other forward, down and back. This comes from Tomkins book and is a literal translation. Those that know ISL better might discribe the signs differently or proscribe different signs, but I think the above will work. Good luck Iron Tounge and let me know how this turns out. YMOS Capt. Lahti ITWHEELER@aol.com wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>In a message dated 98-05-27 13:51:50 EDT, you write: << agottfre@telusplanet.net >> ive ben fired up about this isl for a long time as there is a man in my n-h thats is deaf mute . i would like to tell him my name is iron tounge that walks. again ag as if said to all of my friends in list if i have ofended you withmy crass coments please for give me . im getting more adept at this computer being self tought and com -ileterat spelling and dangerous to a fault whit which button to push im getting better. im also dislecsicic spelling ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 01:20:34 -0500 From: "Ken " <rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye When we were making the movie the Postman we used Lady Clairol hair dye. On a live animal you have to do small areas at a time or you can burn an animals skin. Should work real well on clipped horse hair. Ken YellowFeather - ---------- > From: Henry B. Crawford <mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye > Date: Wednesday, May 27, 1998 4:20 PM > > I'm looking for a good way to dye horsehair, Native and/or modern. Any > suggestions? > > TIA, > > HBC > > ***************************************** > Henry B. Crawford Curator of History > mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University > 806/742-2442 Box 43191 > FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum > ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 05:03:41 EDT From: <ITWHEELER@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain name In a message dated 98-05-24 00:52:15 EDT, you write: << Longshot >> your welcom at my fire any time iron tounge ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 17:30:13 -0700 From: "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Men of the Cloth This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD8995.1B053360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Voyagers were asked what they wanted the most in the wilderness. They said a Priest. Later Jon T - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD8995.1B053360 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">The Voyagers were asked what they = wanted the most in the wilderness. They said a Priest. Later = Jon T </body></html> - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD8995.1B053360-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 98 08:45:00 -0500 From: bruce.mcneal@ssa.gov Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye I've used both liquid Rit dye and food dye. I've had varying results with the final color. When dying white horse hair "red", I've gotten everything from red to orange. Guess it depends in part on the horses diet before the hair was taken. - - Bruce McNeal - -----Original Message----- From: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> at ##internet Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 1998 3:20 PM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com at ##Internet Subject: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye I'm looking for a good way to dye horsehair, Native and/or modern. Any suggestions? TIA, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* << File: RFC822.TXT >> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 08:15:52 -0600 From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye I have dyed a great deal of horse hair for museum projects and Native American objects. I use a special leather dye. Colors I generally use are red, green and yellow. I can dye most any color. Usually I just dye the whole horse tail and then cut what hair I need. White or grey dyes the best Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 08:27:58 -0600 From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye Ken, I saw Kevin Mcniven's horses after Postman, Commercial hair dye was not the best to use on live animals. It did indeed irritate many of the horses skin. Their are not alot of good alternatives for dying hair on animals that used for hard riding. If just dying horsehair see my previous message Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 07:43:06 -0700 From: Dennis Fisher <dfisher@sbceo.k12.ca.us> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows Michael Pierce wrote: > > dont believe the statement about the arrow points and atlatal points > being the same size is totally correct. I guess what I'm getting at is whether or not the Indians were using bows during the pre Columbian times. Were they using strictly spears and atlatls? Were bows introduced with the Spanish Conquistadors like the horse? If anyone knows of a reference on the subject, I would appreciate it. Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 10:25:40 -0500 From: Glenn Darilek <llsi@texas.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows Michael Pierce wrote: > the atlatal is a stick that is used to hearl > the dart or arrow and is a extention of the arm to get more force and > greater distance than a common spear. Not so much for greater distance, but for more force. You could have enough force at close range to kill an animal. With any distance, the force (velocity) decreases to be ineffective, and the accuracy falls off quickly. Iron Burner ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 11:22:47 -0500 (CDT) From: pwjones@onr.com Subject: MtMan-List: Egg Powder The following is a receipe for egg powder. Query: what are the health risks associated with using this material, assuming it has been properly prepared? I have more than vague fears of food poisoning or worse. Egg Powder: 1/2 dozen eggs. Beat hard. Spread very thin layer of egg mixture on two flat bottomed pans. Do not put into oven as it will cook. Rather, set the pans in the sun during the day so that moisture is evaporated and a crust remains. Remove from sun when dry (repeat next day if still moist). Pulverize the egg material. Dry in sun again until completely dry. Pack in tins or other sealed container. One pound evaporated powder egg equals four dozen fresh eggs. One tablespoon egg powder with two tablespoons water equals one egg. Useful in omelets, scrambled or in combination with other foods such as onion, side bacon, etc. O.K. Is it safe to try? Paul W. Jones ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 11:23:32 -0600 (CST) From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye >Ken, > >I saw Kevin Mcniven's horses after Postman, Commercial hair dye was not the >best to use on live animals. It did indeed irritate many of the horses >skin. Their are not alot of good alternatives for dying hair on animals >that used for hard riding. If just dying horsehair see my previous message > It's just off-white horsehair. No animals attached. ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 12:30:17 EDT From: <KPMTNMAN@aol.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Conflicting info Hello list. I am new to this and have enjoyed reading the postings, and have repilied to a few. I am early in my journey as far as acquiring knowledge is concerned and am doing a lot of reading from several sources simultaneously. Ran across a conflict from a few different sources regarding one Mr. Fontanell (sp). One account i found said he committed suicide while another said that in effect he died fat and happy back in the states. Anyone know where I can start my next reading project and find out? Thanks for your patience and your info. Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 14:37:26 -0400 From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Egg Powder - --------------DC44DA974CBF805E891EEC15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul, I ran this by a friend of mine an he was leery of Salmonella, but said that is it was done in a dehydrator or oven at low temp, that the possibility would be GREATLY diminished. Dennis The Purtiest Damn Mountain Man what ever graced the Hills pwjones@onr.com wrote: > The following is a receipe for egg powder. Query: what are the health risks > associated with using this material, assuming it has been properly prepared? > I have more than vague fears of food poisoning or worse. > > Egg Powder: 1/2 dozen eggs. Beat hard. Spread very thin layer of egg > mixture on two flat bottomed pans. Do not put into oven as it will cook. > Rather, set the pans in the sun during the day so that moisture is > evaporated and a crust remains. Remove from sun when dry (repeat next day > if still moist). Pulverize the egg material. Dry in sun again until > completely dry. Pack in tins or other sealed container. > > One pound evaporated powder egg equals four dozen fresh eggs. One > tablespoon egg powder with two tablespoons water equals one egg. Useful in > omelets, scrambled or in combination with other foods such as onion, side > bacon, etc. > > O.K. Is it safe to try? > > Paul W. Jones - --------------DC44DA974CBF805E891EEC15 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML> Paul, I ran this by a friend of mine an he was leery of Salmonella, but said that is it was done in a dehydrator or oven at low temp, that the possibility would be GREATLY diminished. Dennis The Purtiest Damn Mountain Man what ever graced the Hills pwjones@onr.com wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>The following is a receipe for egg powder. Query: what are the health risks associated with using this material, assuming it has been properly prepared? I have more than vague fears of food poisoning or worse. Egg Powder: 1/2 dozen eggs. Beat hard. Spread very thin layer of egg mixture on two flat bottomed pans. Do not put into oven as it will cook. Rather, set the pans in the sun during the day so that moisture is evaporated and a crust remains. Remove from sun when dry (repeat next day if still moist). Pulverize the egg material. Dry in sun again until completely dry. Pack in tins or other sealed container. One pound evaporated powder egg equals four dozen fresh eggs. One tablespoon egg powder with two tablespoons water equals one egg. Useful in omelets, scrambled or in combination with other foods such as onion, side bacon, etc. O.K. Is it safe to try? Paul W. Jones</BLOCKQUOTE> </HTML> - --------------DC44DA974CBF805E891EEC15-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 15:00:55 -0500 From: "Scott Allen" <allen@blueridge-ef.SAIC.COM> Subject: MtMan-List: Trippin' Hello the list, I will be on business trips to Petersburg/Blackstone, Va on the 8-9 June and in the Anchorage/Fairbanks, AK area from 13-24 July if anyone is close by and would like to get together for dinner or something. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 13:54:24 -0500 From: "Ken " <rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye Howdy Henry, Yep, I know all about what it did to the animals and to me. That's why I agreed to do the National Inquirer article about how the horses were treated in the Postman. I won't even say on list what I think about Kevin. I have spent over a year recovering from being thrown and dragged, kicked and so on by one of the horses used in the film. Nearly ALL the animals were burned! That is why I said you HAVE to do a small patch at a time. We can continue this off list if you like. Ken YellowFeather - ---------- > From: Henry B. Crawford <mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye > Date: Thursday, May 28, 1998 12:23 PM > > >Ken, > > > >I saw Kevin Mcniven's horses after Postman, Commercial hair dye was not the > >best to use on live animals. It did indeed irritate many of the horses > >skin. Their are not alot of good alternatives for dying hair on animals > >that used for hard riding. If just dying horsehair see my previous message > > > > It's just off-white horsehair. No animals attached. > > ***************************************** > Henry B. Crawford Curator of History > mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University > 806/742-2442 Box 43191 > FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum > ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 15:33:23 -0400 From: seanbear <seanbear@mci2000.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Egg Powder This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_005C_01BD8A4D.F3646600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would be very leary also of salmonella. Part of my job in the Navy as = a Corpsman was food inspection, and eggs were one of the main things = that caused food borne illnesses. IMHO, setting them in the sun, even = beaten, would greatly increase the rate of bacteria growth should it be = present in even one egg.... This would allow it to contaminate the = entire batch. As with Jerky, I agree that an oven on low setting, or = even a dehydrator, might lessen the possibility of food borne illness. = No guarantee however... One can never be too careful with food = preparation. I have seen an entire ships compliment be stricken with = food infection due to eggs, milk, etc... that was bad. Addison Miller -----Original Message----- From: Dennis Miles <deforge1@wesnet.com> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: Thursday, May 28, 1998 2:58 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Egg Powder =20 =20 Paul,=20 I ran this by a friend of mine an he was leery of Salmonella, but = said that is it was done in a dehydrator or oven at low temp, that the = possibility would be GREATLY diminished.=20 Dennis=20 The Purtiest Damn Mountain Man what ever graced the Hills=20 pwjones@onr.com wrote:=20 The following is a receipe for egg powder. Query: what are the = health risks=20 associated with using this material, assuming it has been = properly prepared?=20 I have more than vague fears of food poisoning or worse.=20 Egg Powder: 1/2 dozen eggs. Beat hard. Spread very thin layer = of egg=20 mixture on two flat bottomed pans. Do not put into oven as it = will cook.=20 Rather, set the pans in the sun during the day so that moisture = is=20 evaporated and a crust remains. Remove from sun when dry = (repeat next day=20 if still moist). Pulverize the egg material. Dry in sun again = until=20 completely dry. Pack in tins or other sealed container.=20 One pound evaporated powder egg equals four dozen fresh eggs. = One=20 tablespoon egg powder with two tablespoons water equals one egg. = Useful in=20 omelets, scrambled or in combination with other foods such as = onion, side=20 bacon, etc.=20 O.K. Is it safe to try?=20 Paul W. Jones =20 - ------=_NextPart_000_005C_01BD8A4D.F3646600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV>I would be very leary also of = salmonella. =20 Part of my job in the Navy as a Corpsman was food inspection, and eggs = were one=20 of the main things that caused food borne illnesses. IMHO, setting = them in=20 the sun, even beaten, would greatly increase the rate of bacteria growth = should=20 it be present in even one egg.... This would allow it to contaminate the = entire=20 batch. As with Jerky, I agree that an oven on low setting, or even = a=20 dehydrator, might lessen the possibility of food borne illness. No = guarantee however... One can never be too careful with food = preparation. I=20 have seen an entire ships compliment be stricken with food infection due = to=20 eggs, milk, etc... that was bad.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Addison Miller</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: = 5px"> <DIV>-----Original = Message----- From:=20 Dennis Miles <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:deforge1@wesnet.com">deforge1@wesnet.com</A>> To:= =20 <A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>=20 <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>> Date:=20 Thursday, May 28, 1998 2:58 PM Subject: Re: = MtMan-List: Egg=20 Powder </DIV>Paul, I ran this by a = friend=20 of mine an he was leery of Salmonella, but said that is it was done = in a=20 dehydrator or oven at low temp, that the possibility would be = GREATLY=20 diminished. Dennis The Purtiest Damn Mountain = Man what=20 ever graced the Hills=20 pwjones@onr.com wrote:=20 <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE =3D CITE>The following is a receipe for egg = powder. =20 Query: what are the health risks associated with using this=20 material, assuming it has been properly prepared? I = have more=20 than vague fears of food poisoning or worse.=20 Egg Powder: 1/2 dozen eggs. Beat hard. = Spread very=20 thin layer of egg mixture on two flat bottomed pans. = Do not=20 put into oven as it will cook. Rather, set the pans in the = sun=20 during the day so that moisture is evaporated and a crust=20 remains. Remove from sun when dry (repeat next day if = still=20 moist). Pulverize the egg material. Dry in sun again = until=20 completely dry. Pack in tins or other sealed = container.=20 One pound evaporated powder egg equals four dozen fresh = eggs. =20 One tablespoon egg powder with two tablespoons water equals = one=20 egg. Useful in omelets, scrambled or in combination = with other=20 foods such as onion, side bacon, etc.=20 O.K. Is it safe to try?=20 Paul W. Jones</BLOCKQUOTE> = </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> - ------=_NextPart_000_005C_01BD8A4D.F3646600-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 14:26:19 -0500 From: "Ken " <rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows I am afraid I will have to disagree with you both on "force". An atlatl like an arrow kills by the cutting of tissues. Having used an atlatl to kill game I will give you all what I have observed. The atlatl is the throwing tool used to throw a light spear that has a removable tip. I usually carried about a dozen tips, some with steel points and some with stone. The tips are about 8 to 12 inches long and I make mine with cedar. The shaft that they fit into can be made of bamboo, reed, or any suitable straight wood. When thrown the tip with the steel or stone or antler point sticks in the animal, and the shaft will "bounce" out. ( if thrown properly) This allows you to insert another tip and have immediate use of the same shaft. If the point is sharp it will cut arteries and the animal will bleed to death. The atlatl does give an increased range but I have found that I got best use when it was used at less than 25 yards. ( I am not real accurate past that) I never found more force to make all that much difference as long as I hit an animal hard enough to make the tip fall out. I have taken two deer with the spear and atlatl and lots of small game. The first deer took three hits to finish it but the second went down with one that hit the lungs and heart. I know there are others who are much more proficient than I with these kinds of tools. But I have found if the tips are sharp, and you stalk close enough, you don't go hungry! Iron Burner is right about accuracy falling off, at least with me! YMOS, Ken YellowFeather - ---------- > From: Glenn Darilek <llsi@texas.net> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows > Date: Thursday, May 28, 1998 10:25 AM > > Michael Pierce wrote: > > the atlatal is a stick that is used to hearl > > the dart or arrow and is a extention of the arm to get more force and > > greater distance than a common spear. > > Not so much for greater distance, but for more force. You could have > enough force at close range to kill an animal. With any distance, the > force (velocity) decreases to be ineffective, and the accuracy falls off > quickly. > > Iron Burner ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 15:47:21 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows DENNIS fISHER: suggest you get a copy of "mystic warrers of the plains" by thomas E. mall and look at chapter 19 which starts at page 397 and ends on page 441-- the title to this chapter is bows, arrows and quivers-- Its about as complet of information as you will find- and will answer most of the questions that you have asked. The part on pre columbian you would have to check with one of the other experts in this matter but Actual dateing the start time for bows can be very difficult to be specific on--- I BELIEVE THAT THE REFERENCE THAT i GAVE YOU WILL GIVE YOU ALL THE INFO THAT YOU REQUIRE. CONTACT ME OFFLINE IF YOU HAVE ANY FURTHER QUESTIONS: AT HAWKNEST4@JUNO.COM. FOR AN ADDITIONAL REFERENCE AND RESOURCE: also suggest you check national geographic vol 156 no 3 dated september 1979 page 330--363 it also has a foldout which gives some of the time periods for early man and the type of points that were used-- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Thu, 28 May 1998 07:43:06 -0700 Dennis Fisher <dfisher@sbceo.k12.ca.us> writes: >Michael Pierce wrote: >> >> dont believe the statement about the arrow points and atlatal points >> being the same size is totally correct. > >I guess what I'm getting at is whether or not the Indians were using >bows during the pre Columbian times. Were they using strictly spears >and atlatls? Were bows introduced with the Spanish Conquistadors like >the horse? If anyone knows of a reference on the subject, I would >appreciate it. > > Dennis > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 14:36:47 -0500 From: "Ken " <rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows I don't know if this is historically correct or not but my atlatl tips I used were larger than the points I made for my arrows. I made mine of steel or stone or antler and made them longer and usually 3/4 of an inch wide at the base. This seems to have given me more cutting surface, which I consider the most important part. I do know that the atlatl preceded the bow by centuries. Perhaps one of our more learned members might have reference material on this? YMOS, ken YellowFeather - ---------- > From: Dennis Fisher <dfisher@sbceo.k12.ca.us> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows > Date: Thursday, May 28, 1998 9:43 AM > > Michael Pierce wrote: > > > > dont believe the statement about the arrow points and atlatal points > > being the same size is totally correct. > > I guess what I'm getting at is whether or not the Indians were using > bows during the pre Columbian times. Were they using strictly spears > and atlatls? Were bows introduced with the Spanish Conquistadors like > the horse? If anyone knows of a reference on the subject, I would > appreciate it. > > Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 15:53:05 EDT From: <MIA3WOLVES@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye Don't know if it would work on horse hair, but I suspect it would. The kids at my school dye their hair with kool aid. They get really "interesting?" reds and greens. Red Hawk ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 1998 11:33:03 -0700 From: "Pat Quilter" <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re Men of the Cloth Re Men of the Cloth I have Father Pierre De Smet's 1841 book at home, "Report on the Flathead Indians" or some such title, most of which is a report to his bishop regarding his missionary efforts, but some of which is a description of the tribal customs he observed. Apparently he was fairly happy with his success with the Flatheads which he held in considerable affection. He does not see fit to include much personal reflections, but I recall reading somewhere that DeSmet was relatively "beloved" or at least respected by the trappers. I know there was a self-description of himself in his black robes but with his hair long after some time on the trail, possibly to increase his appeal to the Indians. I suspect that he had more personal humor and tolerance than the mountaineers expected from a Catholic Jesuit priest, and being French, may have liked his wine. Pat Quilter ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 1998 11:32:57 -0700 From: "Pat Quilter" <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re Sign Language Re Sign Language As many know, one of the requirements for membership in the AMM is to learn at least 50 words of Indian Sign Language. After a slow start, I made real progress with a friend during a several day outing, and found the signs coming pretty quickly, although they fade of course without practice. HOWEVER, imagine my disappointment to find that this sign language has almost nothing to do with ASL (American Sign Language for the deaf). Big disappointment! I hoped I was at least laying a foundation for a communication skill which might be useful in modern life. According to my friend, when ASL was designed around the turn of the century, Indian culture was in low repute and a deliberate attempt was made to avoid using their signs. DRAT! Pat Quilter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 16:58:47 -0600 From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye Ken, the note was from Me not Henry Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 19:42:44 EDT From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye What kind of movie is The Postman? Can I also ask why the horses were dyed? Ted P.S. If this is off subject email me privately at TedHart@juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #75 ****************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.