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hist_text-digest       Tuesday, January 13 1998       Volume 01 : Number 003




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:16:04 EST
From: [e-mail] (Ted A Hart)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (Fwd) Indian sign language help

I personally don't know any native signers but I have gone to several
American Indian Powwows (dancing) and asked the same question as I'm deaf
and interested in learning that system of signs as I'm a native American
Sign Language user.  Sorry to say this but more American Indians know
American Sign Language than the traditional signs.....but signs are still
in use mostly in Canada and some in the western states particularly the
Blackfeet Nations and Lakota Nations.  I'm not too sure about the
Oklahoma Indian Nations...wouldn't hurt to check it out there as that
state has a huge number of American Indians next to California and Texas.

Ted

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:54:07 EST
From: CT OAKES <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Bed Hardware ????

In a message dated 98-01-08 23:47:45 EST, JSeminerio wrote:

<< Talking about bring a period bed to rendezvous, does anyone know if plans
are
 available for Lafayette's Travelling four post bed that's shown in
Collector's
 Illustarted Encyclopedia of the American Revolution ?
  >>
I have not seen published plans but they have one at Ft Stanwick in Rome NY
and if you ever get there the staff would let you photograph it and take any
and all measurements you want.  They are really nice folks there and real
helpful.

Last year up at Ft Niagara at the Rev War event there was a reinactor that
brought his reproduction of the folding canopy bed.  His wife was real happy
to show it off and let you inspect it.

If you every get to the Henry Ford Museum outside of Detroit take a look at
George Washingtons bed.  All iron and canvas and folds up into a suitcase for
transport.  Present from the french along with a camp kitchen/mess complete
with crystal, china and silverware and a couple of wine/spirit decanters.
Nice thing about the F&I and Rev War era is you can sleep in style and eat
well too.

Your humble servant,

C.T. Oakes

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:34:34 -0800
From: Flying Cloud <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Phone Number

Good afternoon

    Does some one have the phone number for the Musiam of the Fur Trade,
Thanks
- --


Jim Ellison,  http://www.rosenet.net/~flyingcd

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:35:01 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List:  A gift for the list.

At 10:06 AM 12/29/97 -0500, Fred Miller wrote:
>
>The finish surface is
>so smooth, if applied properly, there is no need to polish out with
>anything......just like glass.
>

Rubbing out and polishing offers a little different look, just another ol=
d
technique.  Of course a too shiny stock offers the chance to "flash" ligh=
t
and spook game or warn an enemy.

>
>Yep........amber is still available, and I really should find out where =
to
>get it. =20
>

I buy broken amber beads from antique jewelry and bead dealers and once a=
t
a rock show they were selling amber darning eggs so I picked up a few.
Amber (fossilized tree resin) comes in a wide array of color, you can nev=
er
have too much.   Take care there are synthetics being hawked as real.  To
test scrape a few shavings and burn with an odorless (alcohol) flame it
should smell like amber - not plastic.  Once you identify the smell of
amber you can rub it warm with your thumb and identify it by smell as you
can real silver.  I have heard that amber has been used as an admixture t=
o
tobacco for spiritual purposes.  Talk about old; this stuff can date back
to dinosaurs.  The newest has been around 25,000 or so years.  It is
magical stuff.

>
> If you know where I can buy REAL boiled linseed and spar, please
>let all of us know here in the list!  I'm sure I'm not the only one who'=
d
>like to have a source for it.
>

The only way I know to get a real boiled linseed oil is to make it as
detailed in the Alburnum Elixir recipe.  It is probably not a good idea t=
o
search out litharge to add as a drier.  I can get rosin, gums and resins;
if anyone is really interested.  Some things take real looking.
Frankincense and Myrrh are easy.

If anyone is really interested we can go into period alternatives to usin=
g
lead as a dryer.  Not necessarily safer, different, sure to be costly.
Borate of Manganese is claimed most powerful.

To avoid confusing others: "spar varnish" is a trade name given to a
maker's most weather resistant varnish.  It was what he felt was the best
blend of gums, resins, and rosins with oils, turpentine and dryers suitab=
le
for protecting the spars of ships on the ocean.  I have not encountered t=
he
terminology in early nineteenth century references nor an early reference
to a resin or gum called "spar."  It is a product name probably coined
after 1900.  Real spar means a natural resin oil varnish.  The minerals
known as fluorspar were not likely ever used for varnish.  Perhaps as a
pigment, I've not found references to such.  The old spar varnishes you a=
nd
I are familiar with most probably included tung oil as a weatherizing
agent.  It simply was the makers most wear and weather resistant varnish.
Not always the best choice.

>
>'Got that right!  The antiques I refinished (after removing many layers =
of
>paint) in the 60's look better today than they did then!  REAL boiled
>linseed, REAL spar and quality terp. were the "secret."  'Outta see the =
pine
>sideboard (1830's) that I stained with stain made from walnut hulls and
>crude oil as a carrier.....spar/linseed/terp mix for the first few coats=
,
>then straight spar after that....rubbed out with crude oil and rotten st=
one.
>I can find rotten stone, but not crude oil.  I use virgin olive oil or
>canola.....works.
>

Then you have seen what I was talking about.  It is a significant
difference.  Your walnut hull dye or a traditional mineral stain will hol=
d
their color.  Modern stains are only guaranteed to fade, quickly when
exposed to sunlight.  When you refer to crude oil do you mean petroleum
crude or cold pressed raw linseed?  Method of oil extraction; heat,
chemical, or pressed; affects quality.  Cold pressed raw linseed is
available at art suppliers or health food stores (sometimes called "flax
seed oil").  Olive oil was also known as sweet oil in the early nineteent=
h
century, never the worst choice; more often used for metals lubrication a=
nd
protection.  Extra Virgin always sounds good to an old rounder, like me, =
it
isn't necessary for shop use.  I have never encountered a pre 1850
reference to using petroleum crude in woodwork.  I am aware of some
published after 1900.  Primarily in industrial arts manuals for school sh=
op.

>
>Compare the furniture made by Bassett (for example) made in the 60's to =
what
>they "make" today, let alone what was made "way back when."
>

The decline of quality has been study and continual from the mid-nineteen=
th
century right up to the present.  Older furniture is one of the better
values of today, costs less than the best new, looks better and lasts
longer; the older the better.  There is a point of diminishing return on
the lower cost part.  Some makers carried elements of quality into the la=
te
nineteenth century, and a few still do work as fine as any past.

>
>Absolutely!!  The real question through all this, is how do we "bring ba=
ck"
>what was lost, as there hasn't been a whole lot of success so far?
>

Success by what measure?  There are a few who live as the past and work a=
t
old craft every day, they are each learning & preserving some of the
secrets. =20

We again, at least one of us, know how to:=20
shrink a buffalo hump into a proper shield,=20
light a candle from a spark,=20
make a barrel of wood for whiskey,=20
or forge weld one of iron for a rifle,=20
tell time at night without a watch,=20
build, pack and paddle a bull boat,=20
pack a horse for extended travel,=20
make a fine damascus type steel,=20
live comfortably with and from the land without aid of modern technology,=
=20
and a bunch of other things which were nearly lost. =20

Answers are found in the questions, which arise in the doing, along with
more questions.  Future problems are yet unknown, we can't presume what
will be important.  All we can really hope to do is preserve a little mor=
e
compleat historic record.  Some of that knowledge is being recorded here,
more in other places.  With the ease of replication it need not be lost
again.  There is always more to know. =20

My products show a practical application of old secrets.  My 1826 contrac=
t
saddle is more comfortable, day after day, than any modern padded stock
saddle.  My life has never been put at risk by failure of traditional
equipment and ways; as happened long ago with the best modern technology
offers.  A fire, 2 wool blankets and a piece of tarp will keep you alive
when the finest nylon and goose down or synthetic fill won't.  Any useful
knowledge gained must certainly be considered success.

>
>Stradivari studied with Amati.  Italian masters of the craft kept much t=
o
>themselves and unfortunately didn't keep notes on the stains and finishe=
s
>they used.  Interesting, that chemical analysis of the varnish they used=
 has
>NOT produced a duplicate to this day......close, but not exact.
>

Part of the problem is some folks figure equivalents are.  For example:
ethanol is not quite the same as "spirits of wine."  Chemists would sugge=
st
they are exact based on molecular structure.  In some cases impurities ar=
e
as important as the main ingredient in traditional receipts.  I have foun=
d
reagent grade chemicals to be often less suitable than raw forms.  Lab
analysis is inexact in interpretation.  The guy down in Texas may have
something about the way they got their wood as well, I'm skeptical of his
simulations.  Folks are working on the problem, it will be found in the o=
ld
ways.  It will be a simple trick or several that makes all the difference.
There is another theory that considers "tuning" the wood while carving to
be of equal importance to varnish.

>
>I have 1 supplier yet to check out, and IF there's a
>natural spar available, I'll list the company here for everyone!  I have=
n't
>used any of the Constantine products.....your impressions?
>

They are not as good as the best I've used.  They are the best varnishes =
I
am currently aware of.  They use mineral spirits, instead of turpentine,
which impairs the quality.  I would certainly like to know of other sourc=
es
of supply.  Making your own oil varnish can be "exciting" or worse.  If i=
t
isn't real I don't use it; wood deserves better than that, so I choose th=
e
best available traditional method of which there are many correct
alternatives.  Most modern work deserves modern finishes.=20

In the past varnishes were prepared to specific purpose, similar in basic
type formulations, the blend of rosin, resin, gums, spirits and oils
specific to the need.  A gunstocker's varnish would be similar to, not th=
e
same as, a luthier's, it could also be very different.  Each ingredient w=
as
chosen for it's own unique properties; the blending of properties to
purpose was the varnish cooker's magic and jealously guarded secrets.  Th=
e
commercialization of varnish manufacture is mostly a post 1850 phenomenon.
An original finish is the signature of the craftsman.  It bespoke the
quality of his work.

Interestingly most pre-1850 varnish receipts were for spirit varnishes; a
few for volatile oil and a very few for oil varnish.  Not surprising; as
spirit varnish is fast drying, the easiest to make and wonderful to use.
Most craftsmen made their own finishes until well into the last half of t=
he
nineteenth century.  They could be made very durable using the finest gum=
s
& resins like copal, dammar, sandarac, amber and more.  In the early
nineteenth century the terms, varnish, shellac and lacquer were virtually
interchangeable according to local custom and could reference a finish
different than present connotations.

Each best thing to each best purpose.  That which is missing from our
market driven economy.  Perhaps a key to some future economy?  The
technology of quill & ink on hand laid paper and movable type, being set =
to
only the most important words, was our beginning.  Concurrently the
technologies of wood work had reached their zenith and soon gave way to t=
he
coming revolutions.  The best of wood was then, the best of communication
is now.  Though when we ponder some of the well-crafted words left us, I
wonder?

John=85

For those who don't know:
A source of hardwood, veneer, tools, hide glue, shellac (several grades),
three natural varnishes: and other less useful stuff.  Catalog available.=
 =20
       Albert Constantine & Son, Inc., since 1812
       2050 Eastchester Rd.
       Bronx, NY  10461
       800-223-8087

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 98 18:05:01 +0000
From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: (Fwd) Indian sign language help

The Tompkins book is ok.  A very fast way to learn sign language, but it
does have a couple of errors in it.  Probably the best book is The Indian
Sign Language by W. P. Clark.  Clark was a Captain in the Army, ordered in
1881 to do a study on Indian sign language which he completed in 1884.
He not only tells what the sign is, but also gives the origin for the sign
and some history of the tribes involved.  Since he was there, I would give
him more credence.
One of the best signers I have seen lives here in Pueblo, CO - Sam
Pisciotta.

Don Keas

Scott Allen wrote:
>I received this email and wondered if any of you  can expand on
>the Indian Sign Language book by Tomkins reference that I gave to
>J.P.
>
>
>J.P. writes:
>Hello, I am a graduate student trying to find a way to begin learning
>native American sign language to help with dissertation research and so
far
>no luck. Could you give me names, places, schools, or any way to find
>information on this topic? Is there a place one can go to for workshops
or
>such? Or do you know of a person who could share info on signing in
Lubbock
>Texas area or even a two or three hundred mile radius?
>Thank you.
>                J. P. Rashkis
>Your most humble servant,
>Scott Allen
>Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick
>Fairplay, MD
>http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT
>
>
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
>
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:40:27 -0700
From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: administrivia

Hello the camp.!.!..

I've added a feature to this here e-mail list that some of y'all may find
convenient - a "digest" version.

A "digest" of the mailing list is where instead of getting a bunch of
emails at various times of day, whenever they get send, you get one big
email message every day or two that contains a whole batch of messages that
have been posted since the last digest.   Lurkers in particular may find
this to be a better arrangement.  I've got it set up so a digest goes out
every two days or 1000 lines, whichever comes first.

If all this sounds too confusing, you can safely ignore this message,
because the mailing list will continue to work the same as always.

But if you'd like to take advantage of this digest feature, send email to:
[e-mail]
where the body of the message is:
subscribe [e-mail] your_email_address

You should get an e-mail back with any further directions.
Once you've made sure you're receiving the digests ok, you'll probably want
to unsubscribe from the regular list (because you'll be getting the
messages twice).

To unsubscribe, send mail to
[e-mail],  where the body of the message consists of
"unsubscribe hist_text  your_email_address".

YMHOS,
Dean
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dean Rudy   AMM#1530     Email: [e-mail]
Park City, Utah          WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:14:48 -0700
From: Dean Rudy <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: web site additions

Here are a few recent additions to the "Mountain Men and the Fur Trade"
website:


http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/spalding.html

Spalding, Henry. <italic>Letter from the Rocky Mountains, 1836

</italic>Thanks to David Mullen for sending in this transcription.


http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/rmo1836.html

Invoice of Goods furnished to Rocky Mountain Outfit, 1836

This is my attempt at transcribing the manuscript from the American Fur
Co. Papers.  For now, I've left out the pricing data, as it will be very
time consuming to work out all the numbers, but I thought just the list
of goods would be of interest for now.


http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/hafenbios.html

A Guide to the Hafen Biographies, with the list of biographies, the
volume and page number references to the original 10 volume series, and,
for those biographies that have been reprinted in recent books,
references to those as well.  This is in a big table that hopefully makes
sense.


YMHOS




- ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Dean Rudy   AMM#1530     Email: [e-mail]

Park City, Utah          WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 08:49:01 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Phone Number

>Good afternoon
>
>        Does some one have the phone number for the Musiam of the Fur Trade,
>Thanks
>--
>
>
>Jim Ellison,  http://www.rosenet.net/~flyingcd

Yes.
It's 308/432-3843.  They are on winter hours now, so you might not get them
right away.  You might have to leave a message.  The Director, Gail Potter,
is a friend of mine, but she's not there right now because she's in England
researching capotes in the Ashmolean Museum collection in Oxford.

Buena suerte,
HBC

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:11:46 -0600
From: Ron & Gayle Harris <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (Fwd) Indian sign language help

Scott Allen wrote:
>
> I received this email and wondered if any of you  can expand on
> the Indian Sign Language book by Tomkins reference that I gave to
> J.P.
>
> J.P. writes:
> Hello, I am a graduate student trying to find a way to begin learning
> native American sign language to help with dissertation research and so far
> no luck. Could you give me names, places, schools, or any way to find
> information on this topic? Is there a place one can go to for workshops or
> such? Or do you know of a person who could share info on signing in Lubbock
> Texas area or even a two or three hundred mile radius?
> Thank you.
>                                 J. P. Rashkis
> Your most humble servant,
> Scott Allen
> Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick
> Fairplay, MD
> http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT
Scott,
I think the Tompkins book is pretty good to get the basics,
but the clark Book really gets into the meat of the
matter. I like it that he spends a lot of time giving
background on each sign.
There is also an out of print book out there by
"Iron Eyes" Cody that is about like Tompkins except
it has pictures instead of drawings.(i found my copy in denver)
Also, I have done a set of Indian Sign Language Flash
Cards that are based on Tompkins that i think help
learn the basics easily. I sell a plain set for 15$
and a laminated set for 30$. I also keep the Tompkins and Clark
books on hand. It is possible that given a little time I
could locate the Cody book for him.
Have J.P. contact me
Ron Harris
305 West Moore Ave
Terrell Tx 75160
e-mail [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 07:00:24 -0500
From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List:  A gift for the list.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of John Kramer
> Sent: Monday, January 12, 1998 6:35 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: A gift for the list.
>
>
> At 10:06 AM 12/29/97 -0500, Fred Miller wrote:
> >
> >The finish surface is
> >so smooth, if applied properly, there is no need to polish out with
> >anything......just like glass.
> >
>
> Rubbing out and polishing offers a little different look, just another old
> technique.  Of course a too shiny stock offers the chance to "flash" light
> and spook game or warn an enemy.

True, but most modern finishers "loose" all the grain, detail, depth, etc.,
because this is over-done, or most often by only using a few coats of oil or
a "flat" type finish.  I refinished a Lyman G.P. stock for a fellow
recently.  Now, European walnut is not the most attractive wood, but this
stock was quite nice when I got done with it.

> >Yep........amber is still available, and I really should find out where
to
> >get it.
> >
>
> I buy broken amber beads from antique jewelry and bead dealers and once at
> a rock show they were selling amber darning eggs so I picked up a few.
> Amber (fossilized tree resin) comes in a wide array of color, you can
never
> have too much.   Take care there are synthetics being hawked as real.  To
> test scrape a few shavings and burn with an odorless (alcohol) flame it
> should smell like amber - not plastic.  Once you identify the smell of
> amber you can rub it warm with your thumb and identify it by smell as you
> can real silver.  I have heard that amber has been used as an admixture to
> tobacco for spiritual purposes.  Talk about old; this stuff can date back
> to dinosaurs.  The newest has been around 25,000 or so years.  It is
> magical stuff.

In my home state of WA, as kids we could find it easily.  I'll see if I can
locate some and try it.

> > If you know where I can buy REAL boiled linseed and spar, please
> >let all of us know here in the list!  I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd
> >like to have a source for it.
> >
>
> The only way I know to get a real boiled linseed oil is to make it as
> detailed in the Alburnum Elixir recipe.  It is probably not a good idea to
> search out litharge to add as a drier.  I can get rosin, gums and resins;
> if anyone is really interested.  Some things take real looking.
> Frankincense and Myrrh are easy.

Hehehehehe......no, I really don't care to make it.

> If anyone is really interested we can go into period alternatives to using
> lead as a dryer.  Not necessarily safer, different, sure to be costly.
> Borate of Manganese is claimed most powerful.

'Never had any cause to use it.  I've played around with enough "nasty"
stuff during my youth, I'd just as soon avoid in now.  That's why I'd like a
source for real boiled linseed.

> To avoid confusing others: "spar varnish" is a trade name given to a
> maker's most weather resistant varnish.  It was what he felt was the best
> blend of gums, resins, and rosins with oils, turpentine and dryers
suitable
> for protecting the spars of ships on the ocean.  I have not encountered
the
> terminology in early nineteenth century references nor an early reference
> to a resin or gum called "spar."  It is a product name probably coined
> after 1900.  Real spar means a natural resin oil varnish.  The minerals
> known as fluorspar were not likely ever used for varnish.  Perhaps as a
> pigment, I've not found references to such.  The old spar varnishes you
and
> I are familiar with most probably included tung oil as a weatherizing
> agent.  It simply was the makers most wear and weather resistant varnish.
> Not always the best choice.

True, any references I've read to varnishes pre-1800 don't use the term
"spar," but my knowledge of the subject is limited.

> >'Got that right!  The antiques I refinished (after removing many layers
of
> >paint) in the 60's look better today than they did then!  REAL boiled
> >linseed, REAL spar and quality terp. were the "secret."  'Outta see the
pine
> >sideboard (1830's) that I stained with stain made from walnut hulls and
> >crude oil as a carrier.....spar/linseed/terp mix for the first few coats,
> >then straight spar after that....rubbed out with crude oil and rotten
stone.
> >I can find rotten stone, but not crude oil.  I use virgin olive oil or
> >canola.....works.
> >
> Then you have seen what I was talking about.  It is a significant
> difference.  Your walnut hull dye or a traditional mineral stain will hold
> their color.  Modern stains are only guaranteed to fade, quickly when
> exposed to sunlight.  When you refer to crude oil do you mean petroleum
> crude or cold pressed raw linseed?  Method of oil extraction; heat,

Cold-pressed raw linseed.....sorry, the term has been used for both.

> chemical, or pressed; affects quality.  Cold pressed raw linseed is
> available at art suppliers or health food stores (sometimes called "flax
> seed oil").  Olive oil was also known as sweet oil in the early nineteenth
> century, never the worst choice; more often used for metals lubrication
and
> protection.  Extra Virgin always sounds good to an old rounder, like me,
it
> isn't necessary for shop use.  I have never encountered a pre 1850
> reference to using petroleum crude in woodwork.  I am aware of some
> published after 1900.  Primarily in industrial arts manuals for school
shop.
>
> >
> >Compare the furniture made by Bassett (for example) made in the 60's to
what
> >they "make" today, let alone what was made "way back when."
> >
>
> The decline of quality has been study and continual from the
mid-nineteenth
> century right up to the present.  Older furniture is one of the better
> values of today, costs less than the best new, looks better and lasts
> longer; the older the better.  There is a point of diminishing return on
> the lower cost part.  Some makers carried elements of quality into the
late
> nineteenth century, and a few still do work as fine as any past.

Yes.....IF you can afford it!<g>

> >Absolutely!!  The real question through all this, is how do we "bring
back"
> >what was lost, as there hasn't been a whole lot of success so far?
> >
>
> Success by what measure?  There are a few who live as the past and work at
> old craft every day, they are each learning & preserving some of the
> secrets.

Yep......and we'll just have to continue best we can.

> We again, at least one of us, know how to:
> shrink a buffalo hump into a proper shield,
> light a candle from a spark,
> make a barrel of wood for whiskey,
> or forge weld one of iron for a rifle,
> tell time at night without a watch,
> build, pack and paddle a bull boat,
> pack a horse for extended travel,
> make a fine damascus type steel,
> live comfortably with and from the land without aid of modern technology,
> and a bunch of other things which were nearly lost.
>
> Answers are found in the questions, which arise in the doing, along with
> more questions.  Future problems are yet unknown, we can't presume what
> will be important.  All we can really hope to do is preserve a little more
> compleat historic record.  Some of that knowledge is being recorded here,
> more in other places.  With the ease of replication it need not be lost
> again.  There is always more to know.

Yes......"it need NOT be lost again!"  I've learned much on the list, have
much more to learn, and so little time it seems.

> My products show a practical application of old secrets.  My 1826 contract
> saddle is more comfortable, day after day, than any modern padded stock
> saddle.  My life has never been put at risk by failure of traditional
> equipment and ways; as happened long ago with the best modern technology
> offers.  A fire, 2 wool blankets and a piece of tarp will keep you alive
> when the finest nylon and goose down or synthetic fill won't.  Any useful
> knowledge gained must certainly be considered success.

Absolutely!  I hunt wearing "union suit," drop-fronts, blanket shirt,
hunters frock, etc.  In really cold weather, a capote.  I'm always warmer
than others wearing their synthetics.

> >Stradivari studied with Amati.  Italian masters of the craft kept much to
> >themselves and unfortunately didn't keep notes on the stains and finishes
> >they used.  Interesting, that chemical analysis of the varnish they used
has
> >NOT produced a duplicate to this day......close, but not exact.
> >
>
> Part of the problem is some folks figure equivalents are.  For example:
> ethanol is not quite the same as "spirits of wine."  Chemists would
suggest
> they are exact based on molecular structure.  In some cases impurities are
> as important as the main ingredient in traditional receipts.  I have found

Proven correct more than once!  They also don't take into consideration that
natural resins used THEN are not the same as what they assume was used.

> reagent grade chemicals to be often less suitable than raw forms.  Lab
> analysis is inexact in interpretation.  The guy down in Texas may have
> something about the way they got their wood as well, I'm skeptical of his
> simulations.  Folks are working on the problem, it will be found in the
old
> ways.  It will be a simple trick or several that makes all the difference.
> There is another theory that considers "tuning" the wood while carving to
> be of equal importance to varnish.

There were a couple of VERY skilled repairmen I once knew.....one was in
Portland, OR...long since dead.  They were of that mind.

> >I have 1 supplier yet to check out, and IF there's a
> >natural spar available, I'll list the company here for everyone!  I
haven't
> >used any of the Constantine products.....your impressions?
> >
> They are not as good as the best I've used.  They are the best varnishes I
> am currently aware of.  They use mineral spirits, instead of turpentine,
> which impairs the quality.  I would certainly like to know of other
sources
> of supply.  Making your own oil varnish can be "exciting" or worse.  If it
> isn't real I don't use it; wood deserves better than that, so I choose the
> best available traditional method of which there are many correct
> alternatives.  Most modern work deserves modern finishes.

I'll keep looking for the "good stuff."

> In the past varnishes were prepared to specific purpose, similar in basic
> type formulations, the blend of rosin, resin, gums, spirits and oils
> specific to the need.  A gunstocker's varnish would be similar to, not the
> same as, a luthier's, it could also be very different.  Each ingredient
was
> chosen for it's own unique properties; the blending of properties to
> purpose was the varnish cooker's magic and jealously guarded secrets.  The
> commercialization of varnish manufacture is mostly a post 1850 phenomenon.
> An original finish is the signature of the craftsman.  It bespoke the
> quality of his work.

Yes indeed.

> Interestingly most pre-1850 varnish receipts were for spirit varnishes; a
> few for volatile oil and a very few for oil varnish.  Not surprising; as
> spirit varnish is fast drying, the easiest to make and wonderful to use.
> Most craftsmen made their own finishes until well into the last half of
the
> nineteenth century.  They could be made very durable using the finest gums
> & resins like copal, dammar, sandarac, amber and more.  In the early
> nineteenth century the terms, varnish, shellac and lacquer were virtually
> interchangeable according to local custom and could reference a finish
> different than present connotations.

Like powder........grades are much different.

> Each best thing to each best purpose.  That which is missing from our
> market driven economy.  Perhaps a key to some future economy?  The
> technology of quill & ink on hand laid paper and movable type, being set
to
> only the most important words, was our beginning.  Concurrently the
> technologies of wood work had reached their zenith and soon gave way to
the
> coming revolutions.  The best of wood was then, the best of communication
> is now.  Though when we ponder some of the well-crafted words left us, I
> wonder?

In an era of political correctness, when most are more concerned with what
can be purchased than created, when most often what is worn on ones sleeve
is his ego, I'd agree.

> For those who don't know:
> A source of hardwood, veneer, tools, hide glue, shellac (several grades),
> three natural varnishes: and other less useful stuff.  Catalog available.
>        Albert Constantine & Son, Inc., since 1812
>        2050 Eastchester Rd.
>        Bronx, NY  10461
>        800-223-8087

Thanks, John!

Regards,

Fred

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 21:20:04 -0600
From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: web site additions

Dean Rudy wrote:
>
> Here are a few recent additions to the "Mountain Men and the Fur
> Trade" website:
>
> A Guide to the Hafen Biographies, with the list of biographies,. . .

Thanks, Mr. Rudy.  I didn't realize that so many biographies had been
published.  That must have been a monumental task.

This list refutes one graybeard's contention that the total number of
mountaineers who ever attended a rendezvous was a couple hundred or so.
I thought he was wrong because I thought I had read some first hand
accounts that estimated at least that number at one rendezvous.

Does anyone know if anyone made a list of the names of mountaineers that
were documented as being in the West during the rendezvous period?
Hafen's biographies would be a good start.  Sounds like a nice project,
but one that will have to wait until my retirement if I am to consider
it.  I know the list would not be exact because the clerks wrote the
names with various spellings.

Iron Burner

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:05:51 -0800 (PST)
From: zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (Fwd) Indian sign language help

Ted,

Very interesting statement about American Sign Language (ASL) and Native
American Sign Language.  I am far from an expert, but do know both.  My wife
is deaf in her left ear and although she is hearing, she went back to school
and got her degree in Deaf Studies and has taught me some degree of ASL.
Also we have many deaf friends, so to communicate I learned enough to be
dangerous.

In the AMM, we encourage learning Native American Sign (it is one of the
requirements that can be passed in order to achieve permanent membership
status) and use the Tompkins book.  It is a good reference, but not the best
out there.  I forget the other book which is better (by Carter?) but if
someone else could remember the author, please help me.

One of the problems I have found is, I sometimes get mixed up and use a
Native American Sign in place of an ASL sign.  Some signs are the same, but
most are different.  Unfortunately, I am in California, but I see that Ron
Harris in Dallas has responded (and he is very good at Native American
Signing) and Paul Jones is in Austin (also on this group) and both might be
able to help you locate other AMM Brothers in Texas.

I hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
_______________________________________________________________________________
At 03:16 PM 1/12/98 EST, you wrote:
>I personally don't know any native signers but I have gone to several
>American Indian Powwows (dancing) and asked the same question as I'm deaf
>and interested in learning that system of signs as I'm a native American
>Sign Language user.  Sorry to say this but more American Indians know
>American Sign Language than the traditional signs.....but signs are still
>in use mostly in Canada and some in the western states particularly the
>Blackfeet Nations and Lakota Nations.  I'm not too sure about the
>Oklahoma Indian Nations...wouldn't hurt to check it out there as that
>state has a huge number of American Indians next to California and Texas.
>
>Ted
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 21:34:28 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Addison O. Miller)
Subject: MtMan-List: Gone to the ALAFIA RONNYVOUS!!!

YAHOOOOOO!!!!  Leaving in the AM for the Alafia River Ronnyvous!!! Hope to
see some of you hard cases there... <grin>  Mouse and I will be camped by
the 3 big Oak trees with the Highland detachment.  Stop by for a cup of
coffee or something stronger if ya care too... Would love you meet you all
<grin>  See ya in 12 days or so....

SeanBear and Lil Mouse
aka Addison and Victoria Miller

PS  We are having a Celtic Wedding on the 21st of Jan.  If ya be there, ya
be invited ;)

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #3
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