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From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning. Date: 01 Mar 1998 00:44:45 -0600 At 02:25 AM 2/28/98 , David Tippets wrote: >Don, > >I've heard that it was a baked on finish. Baking isn't a problem, once >you've found some asphaltum varnish. Somebody is making those jappaned pots >for Fort Union -- got any clues where the asphaltum varnish is coming from? > Most of the early recipes I've seen only call for applying the asphaltum varnish with a brush. Baked finishes are more common post-industrial revolution, not entirely unknown well before, in particular regarding fired enameling. Sun baking was common. Baking speeds curing of the finish, less time for dust to spoil, tempers the finish. Temperatures should not generally exceed 250 to 350 degrees f., for most applications. Some things work best in the 100+ range. A very few to 500 and more. All kinds of nasty things happen when something gets a little too hot -- or not hot enough. Another receipt... "Brunswick Black Varnish Melt 4 lbs of common asphalt, and add 2 pts. of boiled linseed-oil, and 1 gall. of oil of turpentine." Has anybody called up the local asphalt plant to see if you can get any pure product? In small batches. Commercial boiled linseed oil should probably work well enough in this application and turpentine is still available. It might be that you can go get a 5 gallon bucket of paving asphalt melt it down to remove impurities, and end up with usable stuff. 5 gallons may be so insignificant they won't even charge for it. Make tiny quantities and test before making a big batch. I find an old ladle over a Bunsen burner handy for batch testing. Work outdoors unless you have high volume air exchange and tolerant companions. Warning: ask a lot of the right questions. I am aware there is a petroleum derivative also called asphalt and that may be all that is commonly available. The first few dozen people you ask probably won't have a clue what you are talking about. Persist. With most old ways, original materials make a huge difference in finished results. Usually for the better. Not having the real lead (litharge) in the linseed may be enough of a handicap. The real thing is available somewhere. Sometimes it's right under our nose. I'm not familiar with the melting point of asphalt, it may be higher than is possible with a double boiler. If so it will require a heavy wall pot. Ideally a double wall copper boiler. I'd really hate to see fine old iron pots fouled with burnt in asphalt and think this is one area where ecological practice should perhaps take precedent. Recycle old heavy aluminum cookware, since it is now suspect re: Alzheimer's, it seems a good way to extend the utility of manufactured goods before being sent to the smelter. This is going to stink a lot. Experimentation to get everything just right might take a little while. Are we sure the finish applied on the Fort Union pots is asphalt based? Or a convenient modern substitute? I haven't been able to find any in a real long time; but then, I haven't been looking real hard. Maybe I'll do a little more checking around. Remember varnish factories burned down with great regularity for a very good reason. As much as is possible I like seeing us shy away from modern expedients and products of petroleum technology, like paraffin. We learn more. If somebody went to the trouble I'd want to trade for some. One or two others might. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike Katona" <mkatona@pdx.oneworld.com> Subject: MtMan-List: (Fwd) Kit Carson Date: 01 Mar 1998 07:50:04 +0000 ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- I have a question about Kit Carson. Where can I purchase a copy of the Kit Carson genealogy, the Carson-Bent-Boggs book? I recieved your address from the MtMan homepage. Rick Carson >>Can anyone help this fellow? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jerry's message on one horse travel Date: 01 Mar 1998 15:47:47 -0600 At 12:06 AM 3/1/98 , David Tippets wrote: >John, > >As per yer closing comment -- where do you find horses wearing mocassins and >why shouldn't said horses be kicked in the ass? I never met a horse, or a >person, that didn't occasionally need to be kicked in the ass. Quote must >have come from lover of Indian ponies -- maybe predessors to the PETA >people. > >Dave > > Never claimed to be Strunk or White. He deserved a ball in the brain and a session on a jerky rack. Would have made a dandy vest. Finally convinced him who was boss & eventually turned out to be a pretty good horse. Now you be careful, I am a totally in favor of PETA, People for the Eating of Tasty Animals. A fine upstanding organization with noble goals and aspirations; if there ever was one. John... "Never kick a horse in the ass with mocassins on." copyright 1980 john <kramer@kramerize.com> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latex Paints (Gourd Canteens) Date: 01 Mar 1998 13:49:25 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD4518.D8ABA0A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit GOOD idea you can get it from Jas. Townsend and son. Jon T ---------- : From: TetonTod <TetonTod@aol.com> : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latex Paints (Gourd Canteens) : Date: Friday, February 27, 1998 6:47 PM : : Tim, : : I lined mine with pine pitch a friend gathered from some ponderosa pines. You : also might try Bewers pitch. : : Todd Glover ------=_NextPart_000_01BD4518.D8ABA0A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">GOOD idea you can get it from Jas. = Townsend and son. Jon T ---------- : From: TetonTod = <TetonTod@aol.com> : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latex Paints (Gourd = Canteens) : Date: Friday, February 27, 1998 6:47 PM : : Tim, = : : I lined mine with pine pitch a friend gathered from some = ponderosa pines. You : also might try Bewers pitch. : : Todd = Glover </body></html> ------=_NextPart_000_01BD4518.D8ABA0A0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jerry's message on one horse travel Date: 01 Mar 1998 16:57:18 PST Don't knock us members of PETA----you know, People who Eat Tasty Animals. Been one for decades. Lanney Ratcliff rat@htcomp.net ---------- > > John, > > As per yer closing comment -- where do you find horses wearing mocassins and > why shouldn't said horses be kicked in the ass? I never met a horse, or a > person, that didn't occasionally need to be kicked in the ass. Quote must > have come from lover of Indian ponies -- maybe predessors to the PETA > people. > > Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > Date: Wednesday, February 25, 1998 8:27 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jerry's message on one horse travel > > > >There is no question one horse travel teaches you to trim down your gear. > >An essential lesson of survival. Wandering on foot teaches much the same. > > > >To fully understand the compleat experience Two Squaws is right, you need > >to do a few hundred carefree miles with a couple of pack animals. > > > >It will be surprising what you learn. I invented a couple of dozen new > >swear words over a 13 hand appaloosa aptly named Lil' Devil. He inspired > >the sig file at the bottom. > > > >Both ways teach, the long trail with a pack string will certainly teach the > >most. A spare animal is handy on the long trail. > > > >Part of the time I was out I rode with Pawnee and The Walrus, between us we > >had 9 animals. Cuts a pretty wide swath in the modern world, sometimes > >poor bull for the stock. Duties were interchangeable among the animals but > >we each basically had a rider, a packer and a spare on the string. > > > >Fewer animals can easier find sufficient graze on an extended basis. > >Doesn't leave such a broad and easy trail for hostiles to track. > > > >John... > > > >"Never kick a horse in the ass with mocassins on." copyright 1980 > > > >john <kramer@kramerize.com> > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE <LODGEPOLE@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: keelboat from st.charles mo. Date: 01 Mar 1998 17:47:33 EST In a message dated 98-02-27 00:24:57 EST, you write: << does anyone know anything about the a new keelboat being build in st. charles after the other one was burnedup in a fire last year. five of us took a ride up the missouri river last year. >> They have finished one of the Pirogues and are working currently on the second. The whole thing is sorta turniong out to be a big Clusterf___. The city of St. Charles is in on the rebuild and looking into how to make as much money off the deal as possible. I'm hearing that the Illinois Territorial Rangewrs are in on it and now they figure everyone who is involved should be a Ranger, and when it sails again it should only be Rangewrs that go. I hear a lot but cannot substanciate most. A couple of my friends went up the river on the last one as well, do you know Mike Perry or mike Chambers from the trip? Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Tent wanted Date: 01 Mar 1998 11:35:30 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD4506.2360AAE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am looking for a wall tent to buy. I also have a bell backed wedge tent in excellent condition Made of marine canvas no mildew, In a bag, no grommets has loops and ties. I have guns and stuff for trade or money what ever anyone want to do. Later Jon Towns Amm944@bigfoot.com or 360-876-1319 after 5 PM week days PST anytime weekend. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD4506.2360AAE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">I am looking for a wall tent to buy. = I also have a bell backed wedge tent in excellent condition Made = of marine canvas no mildew, In a bag, no grommets has loops and = ties. I have guns and stuff for trade or money what ever anyone = want to do. Later Jon Towns Amm944@bigfoot.com or 360-876-1319 = after 5 PM week days PST anytime weekend. </body></html> ------=_NextPart_000_01BD4506.2360AAE0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Stewart <MedicineBear@Hawken54.sparks.nv.us> Subject: MtMan-List: Capotes again. Date: 02 Mar 1998 16:17:23 -0800 Hello the camp, I've read all the archive on "capotes" and "blankets" and am unable to find the definitive answer to what the period correct colors are for a capote or blanket. One problem is of course, what's available! I'm finding predominantly, scarlet, emerald, royal blue and white multi-stripe. I know the multi-stripe is out. As always, your help is appreciated! MB ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ITWHEELER <ITWHEELER@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jerry's message on one horse travel Date: 01 Mar 1998 23:24:38 EST reminds me of the time one reeeeeal windy while riding my horse we were heading into to the wind for quite awhile when we turned around my horse lifted its tail the wind bluew the bit right out of my horses mouth it was abig reck from there to camp. no searesly i new of amule my [favorite] that could kick your foot could get it back downto stand on. iron tounge ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Philip Huvler <huv@mail.bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sawing off a CVA barrel Date: 02 Mar 1998 13:18:45 -0500 (EST) At 08:41 PM 2/26/98 -0600, you wrote: >Hello gunmakers everywhere, > > A friend of mine has a CVA Kentucky rifle he built from a kit. The >caliber is .45 and the barrel length is 32". He wants to convert it to >.32 caliber by replacing the barrel. The problem is most barrels are to >long. What is the proper technique---saw off the muzzle end or the >breech end? How much can be safely sawn off before accuracy is >sacrificed? > Next question. I have a CVA Mountain rifle. It is percussion and I >want to convert to flintlock. Do I simply remove the drum and replace it >with a touch-hole liner and add a flintlock or is it more complicated >than that? > Would someone please help us flatlanders with these questions. > >Thanks a lot folks, >Monty Bradley > >hi did a CVA Kentucky conversion I sawed off the drum drilled and tapped it for a liner. also I peened the remaining part of drum into the barrel for added safety. the flintlock for the style gun fit perfect > good luck Philip Huvler ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas <pdkeas@market1.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning.. Date: 01 Mar 1998 20:22:00 +0000 Nope. But, I'm wondering...they still use stuff like that with horses so I'm wondering if a vet or horse product supply house might have something? David Tippets wrote: >Don, > >I've heard that it was a baked on finish. Baking isn't a problem, once >you've found some asphaltum varnish. Somebody is making those jappaned pots >for Fort Union -- got any clues where the asphaltum varnish is coming from? > >Dave >-----Original Message----- >From: Phyllis and Don Keas <pdkeas@market1.com> >To: hist_text <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Date: Tuesday, February 24, 1998 10:40 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning. > > >>Japaning wasn't just painting. They put on the asphalt/varnish and then >>baked it on at 350 degrees. Don Keas >> >> >>David Tippets wrote: >>> >>> >>>Thanks for the insight on Jappaning -- how's about some more? >>> >>>A couple of years ago I discovered that the Fort Union Interpretive >>>Association has documented and is now offering for sale a small >>>personal-size cooking pot that is Jappaned tin. More recently, I 've >>>discovered documentation of Jappaned tin eyeglass cases. >>> >>>The Fort Union reproduction pot was priced at $80.00, last that I >>checked. >>> >>>According to your understanding of Jappaning: >>> >>> Could anyone today buy the appropriate shellac and paint it on tin to >>>achieve results equal to the Jappaned tin containers? >>> >>>Is protecting from rust the mail reason people used to Jappan tin? >>> >>>Is the Jappaned tin food safe if Jappaned on the inside of the >>container? >>> >>>Thanks for any additional information you have about Jappaning! >>> >>>Dave >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> >>>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >>>Date: Monday, February 23, 1998 11:41 PM >>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe >>> >>> >>> >>>>. . . Japaning, in this country, was most commonly done >>>>with asphaltum varnish. >>>> >>>>Tole work on tin was sometimes done with milk paint, more often with >>>>enamel, and some call this japaning. What was called japaning in the >>>>1200's referenced work done in Japan. A lacquering technique never >>widely >>>>used in this country. Black pigmented true lacquer from the rhus >>>>venicifera; was the first japaning. >>>> >>>>Terminology has been loosely applied in this country and old names >>>>appropriated for "new and improved" materials. During the early >>nineteenth >>>>century the terms shellac, lacquer, varnish, were interchangeable and >>could >>>>refer to any of several classes of materials. It depended on what was >>the >>>>local usage. Lacquer is now a modified nitro-cellulose based product, >>>>rapidly being replaced with new wonder water formulae; all called >>lacquer. >>>> >>>>Japaning can be generally thought of as a blackening of the surface. >>Some >>>>techniques of woodwork may call ebonizing - japaning. If painted with >>any >>>>black surface material it could be called japaning. >>>> >>>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>RFC822 header >>>----------------------------------- >>> >>>Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com >>> (SMTPD32-4.03) id A6582CE0276; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:25:12 MST >>>Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.73 #4) >>> id 0y7M7X-0002Pp-00; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:18:11 -0700 >>>Received: from xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2] (drudy) >>> by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) >>> id 0y7M7U-0002Ov-00; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:18:08 -0700 >>>Received: (from drudy@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.7/8.7.5) >>id >>>IAA17547 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:18:05 >>-0700 (MST) >>>Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR01 [207.68.143.137] >>> by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) >>> id 0y7Jdw-0002JL-00; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 05:39:28 -0700 >>>Received: from dtippets - 153.35.212.225 by email.msn.com with Microsoft >> >>>SMTPSVC; >>> Tue, 24 Feb 1998 04:38:22 -0800 >>>From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> >>>To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning >>>Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 05:36:41 -0700 >>>X-Priority: 3 >>>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >>>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 >>>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 >>>Message-ID: <0fe8a2238121828UPIMSSMTPUSR01@email.msn.com> >>>Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>>Precedence: bulk >>>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>>X-UIDL: 881270251 >>>Status: U >>> >> >> > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com > (SMTPD32-4.03) id ABF919F022A; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:13:13 MST >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0y8uPN-0002dZ-00; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:07:01 -0700 >Received: from xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2] (drudy) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0y8uPL-0002d4-00; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:06:59 -0700 >Received: (from drudy@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.7/8.7.5) id >PAA28247 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:06:57 -0700 (MST) >Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR04 [207.68.143.160] > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0y8hiG-0000My-00; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:33:40 -0700 >Received: from dtippets - 153.35.212.134 by email.msn.com with Microsoft >SMTPSVC; > Sat, 28 Feb 1998 00:32:28 -0800 >From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> >To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning. >Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:25:18 -0700 >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 >Message-ID: <09ec72832081c28UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com> >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >X-UIDL: 881270341 >Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> Subject: MtMan-List: Local, State cooperation and Reenactments Date: 02 Mar 1998 18:52:32 -0800 (PST) On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, LODGEPOLE wrote: <snip> The whole thing is sorta turniong out to be a big Clusterf___. The > city of St. Charles is in on the rebuild and looking into how to make as much > money off the deal as possible.<snip> I'm curious, are there any postive results when a political entity and a BP club get together to do something? One of the clubs I belong to is looking hard at doing something very similiar in relations to the Lewis and Clark expedition through Idaho, and, quite frankly, I'm hoping to hear some positive comments. Any clubs ever get financially shipwrecked because of one of these partnerships? Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning. Date: 01 Mar 1998 12:31:35 -0700 John, Thanks -- as far as I'm concerned, the bottom has just fallen out of the market for Fort Union's little Jappaned cooking pot. Where'd you lean all this stuff? Dave -----Original Message----- >At 02:25 AM 2/28/98 , David Tippets wrote: >>Don, >> >>I've heard that it was a baked on finish. Baking isn't a problem, once >>you've found some asphaltum varnish. Somebody is making those jappaned pots >>for Fort Union -- got any clues where the asphaltum varnish is coming from? >> > >Most of the early recipes I've seen only call for applying the asphaltum >varnish with a brush. Baked finishes are more common post-industrial >revolution, not entirely unknown well before, in particular regarding fired >enameling. Sun baking was common. Baking speeds curing of the finish, >less time for dust to spoil, tempers the finish. Temperatures should not >generally exceed 250 to 350 degrees f., for most applications. Some things >work best in the 100+ range. A very few to 500 and more. All kinds of >nasty things happen when something gets a little too hot -- or not hot enough. > >Another receipt... >"Brunswick Black Varnish >Melt 4 lbs of common asphalt, and add 2 pts. of boiled linseed-oil, and 1 >gall. of oil of turpentine." > >Has anybody called up the local asphalt plant to see if you can get any >pure product? In small batches. Commercial boiled linseed oil should >probably work well enough in this application and turpentine is still >available. > >It might be that you can go get a 5 gallon bucket of paving asphalt melt it >down to remove impurities, and end up with usable stuff. 5 gallons may be >so insignificant they won't even charge for it. > >Make tiny quantities and test before making a big batch. I find an old >ladle over a Bunsen burner handy for batch testing. Work outdoors unless >you have high volume air exchange and tolerant companions. > >Warning: ask a lot of the right questions. I am aware there is a petroleum >derivative also called asphalt and that may be all that is commonly >available. The first few dozen people you ask probably won't have a clue >what you are talking about. Persist. With most old ways, original >materials make a huge difference in finished results. Usually for the >better. Not having the real lead (litharge) in the linseed may be enough >of a handicap. The real thing is available somewhere. Sometimes it's >right under our nose. > >I'm not familiar with the melting point of asphalt, it may be higher than >is possible with a double boiler. If so it will require a heavy wall pot. >Ideally a double wall copper boiler. I'd really hate to see fine old iron >pots fouled with burnt in asphalt and think this is one area where >ecological practice should perhaps take precedent. Recycle old heavy >aluminum cookware, since it is now suspect re: Alzheimer's, it seems a good >way to extend the utility of manufactured goods before being sent to the >smelter. This is going to stink a lot. > >Experimentation to get everything just right might take a little while. > >Are we sure the finish applied on the Fort Union pots is asphalt based? Or >a convenient modern substitute? I haven't been able to find any in a real >long time; but then, I haven't been looking real hard. Maybe I'll do a >little more checking around. > >Remember varnish factories burned down with great regularity for a very >good reason. > >As much as is possible I like seeing us shy away from modern expedients and >products of petroleum technology, like paraffin. We learn more. > >If somebody went to the trouble I'd want to trade for some. One or two >others might. > >John... > >Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. >John Kramer >kramer@kramerize.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mtnman1449 <Mtnman1449@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (Fwd) Kit Carson Date: 02 Mar 1998 08:40:40 EST I would place a phone call directly to Skip Miller, director of theKit Carson Museum in Taos, NM. If anyone knows about Kit, it's Skip Miller. the number is 505-758-0505. He'll big a big help to you. Pat Surrena #1449 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JFLEMYTH <JFLEMYTH@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latex Paints (Gourd Canteens) Date: 02 Mar 1998 07:49:58 EST I have an article I pulled off the net on making a gourd canteen. (I just noticed that it has "J2HEARTS" name on it!) It is a well done article, but I havn't seen any gourds I liked enough to try it yet. He reccommends using bees wax and parafin melted together with several coats applied. It may be worth trying. Also, How well have you cleaned the interior? Could you be getting some floatsom in your drink? Let me know if you want, and I'll try to get the web site for this article again. John Fleming. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek <llsi@texas.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latex Paints (Gourd Canteens) Date: 03 Mar 1998 10:18:36 -0600 JFLEMYTH wrote: > > I have an article I pulled off the net on making a gourd canteen. > > Also, How well have you cleaned the interior? Could you be getting some > floatsom in your drink? >From personal experience, the problem with uncoated gourd canteens is much more than flotsam. In the one I made, after extensive scraping, I filled it with water overnight. The next morning the water was undrinkable. I think it must be the tannin, which produced a pucker that made it hard to even spit out the water! I have read a first hand period account (Noah Smithwick in early Texas) about gourd canteens, but he didn't say anything about coating them. By the way, his book "Early Times in Texas" is available for downloading on-line. It is a good, sometimes humerous read. Iron Burner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Fisher <dfisher@sbceo.k12.ca.us> Subject: MtMan-List: Subject lines Date: 03 Mar 1998 09:15:23 -0800 Howdy, Please take the time to put a subject line on your message that reflects the topic of discussion. We are still discussing gourd canteens under the Latex Paint title. All of these messages are archieved by subject and anyone searching for info on gourd canteens would never think to look under latex paint. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List:(Gourd Canteens) Date: 03 Mar 1998 09:47:48 -0600 (CST) >I have an article I pulled off the net on making a gourd canteen. (I just >noticed that it has "J2HEARTS" name on it!) It is a well done article, but I >havn't seen any gourds I liked enough to try it yet. He reccommends using >bees wax and parafin melted together with several coats applied. It may be >worth trying. > >Also, How well have you cleaned the interior? Could you be getting some >floatsom in your drink? > The waxing accomplishes this. As long as I'm in a writing mood, I thought I'd tell you how I clean my gourds. I start with a ramrod and clean as much loose stuff and seeds as possible (save those seeds to replant next year.) Then I pour in several quarter (25 cent) size rocks and swish them around knocking more membrane material loose, and pour it out. Do this 3-4 times. Then go with a smaller rock size (maybe half) and repeat the procedure, 3-4 times. Then go with an even smaller siuze, maybe pea gravel (aquarium size) size and repeat the same 3-4 times. The succession of rocks does a great job in cleaning out the gourd. Sometimes you can reach a finger into the hole and rub away the loose stuff just under the lip. I usually let the rocks do that, though. After the rock bit, rinse the inside of the gourd of whatever loose membrane and rock dust there happens to be. Let the gourd dry completely before waxing (24 hrs at least) A few minutes in the oven could do this, but it might dry too fast and crack. It's best to let it dry slowly over time. Waxing accomplishes three objectives. 1. it coats the inside and forms a barrier against the foul-tasting inside wall, and 2. it covers whatever membrane may be left inside and keeps it from coming loose tainting the water, and 3. it strengthens the gourd wall. Three coats minimum will accomplish waxing easily. You don't have to heat the gourd before pouring the wax. The hot wax itself will provide sufficient heat to cause an even flow of wax. As it's poured out, rotate the gourd to insure an even coating on the inside. Don't forget the mouth of the gourd needs to be coated, too. Rotating the gourd as it's poured out accomplishes this. Allow the wax to cool a bit between each pouring. It takes a few times to develop a technique of your own, but it's easier than you might think at first. Use corks as stoppers. I find wine bottle corks work well for openings of that size. My favorite Southwest drinking gourd is corked with a Spanish wine cork, complete with Spanish writing stamped on it. I finish mine off with rawhide or leather slings, wrapped around the neck and secured by stitching with sinew. That's how I do it. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ************* So Long, Harry ************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio <JSeminerio@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes again. Date: 03 Mar 1998 17:44:52 EST Hey Medicine Bear I know that Rogers Rangers had white blankets with black or indigo stripes (at least that's what the article in Muzzleloader says), whitney makes a copy. It's a very nice blanket. That is about 90 years early I know , but it probably was available Hope that helps JS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand <Traphand@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes again. Date: 03 Mar 1998 17:50:23 EST are you going to go hunting use it, if so go with earthtones,also take a look at all the type that were used.do your homework before you buy.it will save you money at the end. traphand ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paul mueller <pmueller@infinet.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes again. Date: 03 Mar 1998 10:40:00 -0500 Frank Stewart wrote: > > Hello the camp, > > I've read all the archive on "capotes" and "blankets" and am unable to > find the definitive answer to what the period correct colors are for a > capote or blanket. > One problem is of course, what's available! > I'm finding predominantly, scarlet, emerald, royal blue and white > multi-stripe. I know the multi-stripe is out. > As always, your help is appreciated! > > MB what time frame are you looking for pre 1840 pre 1790 as for the multi stripe look around 1820 . the multi strip blanket is in fact a type of chiefs phase blankets.rember you need your three primary colors to make the rest of them. red, blue and yellow. alot of people talk what color is right. most blankets were made in pairs and then split dye lots were not always even. in a 1677 letter to witney mills, the purchasers indicated that they wanted the blankets dyed red and blue,as these were the colors that best pleased the indians of virginia.the white blanket with a black, blue,or red strip would be very good also. a good book to get and read would be the lan language of the robe. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio <JSeminerio@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Local, State cooperation and Reenactments Date: 03 Mar 1998 18:01:47 EST Ho the list First find WARREN STEVENS of Connecticutt. He recreated the rogers rangers march to St Francis, talk about coordinating. He can give you a lot of advice. I am proud to say that for over ten years I was part of the only official New York City, yes laddies, New York City, Historic re-eanactment. The Remsen Day Re-enactment went on for about thirteen years. The City, especially the Parks Deaprtment Commissioners, the State representatives and PRIVATE CORPORATIONS, including our utility companies were all very helpful and considerate. True we were not allowed to target shoot, but we did have tomahawk throws and games for the participants' and the publics kids. It slowly started to go downhill as corporate donations began to dry up. It hard to argue that you should still get your donation of $500 when most of that money is now going to a shelter for battered women and their children. You see being in the city (not really we, are in a very nice almost suburban community in Queens) we had to bride people to come. At one point it was a catered event, yes catered, with the local red cross doing coffee and donuts in the morning, six foot heroes for lunch, and the local Roy Rogers giving us a BIG break on huge boxes of fried chicken. Times change and it was fun. If you have the opportunity to do a great thing for your community just by putting up with a little bullsh*t , then you know that you should do the right thing. Who is going to show kids that this culture, our SHARED culture (all races, genders and creeds benefitted from it) was brought about by individuals. That is such an inportant idea that is being lost today. DO IT !!! P.S. - Don't be afraid to ask for what you want and need, if the sponsor(s) is interested they will pay for it. Hope that helped Watch your topknot JS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mtnman1449 <Mtnman1449@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes again. Date: 03 Mar 1998 22:14:31 EST Check the inventories from the Rondy's for the years you are interested. See what the predominant colors are. Most of those colors are still quite available. When in doubt, go with white with black stripe--always correct. Pat Surrena #1449 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pamela Wheeler" <rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes again. Date: 04 Mar 1998 00:01:54 -0600 Howdy, If you are going to hunt back East I would use red. The deer don't care and earth tones will probably get you a ball in the butt! I wore a red w/black stripe capote for years and no one ever said diddle about it. I saw a picture done by Russel or one of those "old" artists and figured it could not be to far off the mark. If you are just doin it to be proper go ahead and burn up the brain cells, but I would look at some of the old paintings and go with that. When you are freezeing your cahones off waitin for a deer in one of those thin pretty ones it won't make help a bit that it is egzakly purfec! On page 140 in People of the First Man (watercolours by Bodmer) done at Ft.McKenzie, fall of 1833 there is a picture of a Piegan posed with feather and trade blanket. It is red w/ black stripes. Hope this helps. Your Obt. Servant K. McWilliams was Ken YellowFeather AMM 251 ---------- > From: Traphand <Traphand@aol.com> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes again. > Date: Tuesday, March 03, 1998 4:50 PM > > are you going to go hunting use it, if so go with earthtones,also take a look > at all the type that were used.do your homework before you buy.it will save > you money at the end. traphand ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pamela Wheeler" <rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Capotes Date: 04 Mar 1998 00:30:04 -0600 Howdy all, Since I am re-joining AMM I need to replace some gear that wore out or doesn't fit anymore. I need a good source for some basic stuff, like where I can buy a Hudson Bay blanket. RED of course! Also need to buy some REAL brass tacks to use to make a new belt. Yes Lance and some of you old farts that remember me. I ain't skinny anymore! Does anyone know where I can buy some slow rust browning solution? I need to make me another pistol as well. Will need a source for a .53 cal barrel blank as well. I can make the rest. Happy to be back. Ken McWilliams was YellowFeather AMM 251 PS. I had my name changed years ago, but to stop any confusion I will be using YellowFeather from now on. I should have left it alone in the first damn place! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Stewart <MedicineBear@Hawken54.sparks.nv.us> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes again. Date: 03 Mar 1998 22:54:12 -0800 Thanks Paul for the information. paul mueller wrote: > what time frame are you looking for pre 1840 pre 1790 as for the multi > stripe look around 1820 . Sorry, should have said, 1810 - 1825. > in a 1677 letter to witney mills, the purchasers > indicated that they wanted the blankets dyed red and blue,as these were > the colors that best pleased the indians of virginia. Were these colors still being used and more importantly used by mountain men in 1825? MB ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> Subject: MtMan-List: CASCADE MT MEN MUZZELOADING ARMS & PIONEER CRAFT SHOW (fwd) Date: 04 Mar 1998 02:26:55 -0800 (PST) Just a forwarded note on a show up in Washinton. Supposed to be pretty good. I be too poor to go :( ---------- Forwarded message ---------- MARCH 7 & 8 1998, KING CO. FAIR GROUNDS ENUMCLAW WA. . GREAT SHOW & DISPLAY. 200+ DEALERS, TRADERS, SUTTLERS,KNIFE MAKERS,100'S OF GUNS, (CUSTOME & COMM.) & ALL OTHER MANNER OF WARE.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HOPE TO SEE SOME OF YOU THERE. Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JFLEMYTH <JFLEMYTH@aol.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Running ball Date: 04 Mar 1998 08:06:05 EST Good idea about the topic lines, Dennis. I'll try to watch that too. While I am on, I am looking for a good period correct bullet mold for the late 1700's, something I can keep in my shoting bag. (I use a .490 round ball.) However, I don't have any real good sources on what the molds were like at that point. Has any body seen something they could reccomend? Thanks for any ideals. John "Sky-Pilot" Fleming ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WIDD-Tim Austin (WIDD-Tim Austin) <AustinT@silltcmd-smtp.army.mil> Subject: MtMan-List: Running Balls Date: 04 Mar 1998 09:23:07 -0600 I have two ball molds. Both are very functional and authentic. One is brass and comes from Dixie Gun Works. Just get their catalog and send the money in. They will make the size you tell them to, I think from .300 to .750. The other is Rapine. They also will make the size you tell them to, and theirs is steel. Have several of both, for the different shooting bags I have and the different guns. Both work well. Both have cutters on them, I like the Rapine one better because the handles are just a bit longer. Both work well, and both are authentic. As I recall the price, both are about the same price. Hope this helps some. Tim Austin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paul mueller <pmueller@infinet.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes again. Date: 04 Mar 1998 11:53:36 -0500 Frank Stewart wrote: > > Thanks Paul for the information. > > paul mueller wrote: > > > what time frame are you looking for pre 1840 pre 1790 as for the multi > > stripe look around 1820 . > > Sorry, should have said, 1810 - 1825. > > > in a 1677 letter to witney mills, the purchasers > > indicated that they wanted the blankets dyed red and blue,as these were > > the colors that best pleased the indians of virginia. > > Were these colors still being used and more importantly used by mountain men > in 1825? > > MB most blankets were a white with a color strip ie: black,blue,red most common colors of the strip. here is a part on an invoice date january 2nd 1823 hudson bay company(sic) 29 pairs 3 point yellow red green & blue stripes ....... 290 pairs 3 point blue bars ........ 10 ps 4 bar broad red striped blanketings ........ 15ps red & blue striped duffills..... an other line from ft. snelling 1822 one time i offered her a scarlet blanket for a kiss but it was no go, and off she went home. colors i have run into from 1670 to 1840s with reference to a capote. blanket, blanketing,or other wools are: green,white,indigo blue,yellow,black,red,grey,shk blue,olive,drab (yellows brown),logwood(brownish red), dark olive,scarlet,blue,brown, wine red,salisbury,rose,blue-grey,buff,orange, as you can see alot of colors were there. most of this is pre 1810. if you want to go most common go white with a black strip. as for style there are alot of differnt styles but when you get down to it only two really different stlyes one square cut one a tailor cut. the earlist i can find the square cut is in 1856. you cane look at both on my web page www.nwtrader.com. one other note most capotes did not have an attached hood most hoods were unattached and buttoned on. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod <TetonTod@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Running ball Date: 04 Mar 1998 14:43:11 EST DIxie Guns Works has some nice brass molds for around $25.00. or Rapine Bullet Mold Manufacturing Co. has a nice steel one for $40.00. Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand <Traphand@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: keelboat from st.charles mo. Date: 04 Mar 1998 18:36:28 EST do not know the people you speak of. we left washington to new haven got caught in a big storm half up river.my hat is off to the man running the boat,he did a great job.i take it that you are a ill.ranger.i an a mo ranger out of fort osage along the river. i know a couple of the ill boys.we ahaving a symposium up in arrow rock mo. march 28 29it will be about fort wayne in1812,tippicanoe,osage trading house atarrow rock,round table discussion,political maniplation of the militaryin 1812,nathan boone,osage indians,amer.cavalry swords 1st infantry at lundys lane. me know and i will hook you upto my email. got to run dinner coming, traphand ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn <jc60714@navix.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Gardens Date: 04 Mar 1998 18:38:49 -0600 Washtahay- 'bout time to put the garden in. Am looking for seeds for bottle gourds. Have Mandan red corn seed and Indian melon seed to swap. Anyone interested? And what do you all plant? LongWalker c. du B. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn <jc60714@navix.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: YellowFeather Date: 04 Mar 1998 18:38:51 -0600 Washtahay- At 12:30 AM 3/4/98 -0600, you wrote: > I need to make me another pistol as well. >Will need a source for a .53 cal barrel blank as well. I can make the rest. Got a chunk of Douglas .54 out in the garage if that'll work. LongWalker c. du B. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mtnman1449 <Mtnman1449@aol.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Whiskey in the Fur Trade Date: 04 Mar 1998 20:57:51 EST Need some help on sources. Am doing a paper (who knows where it will end up going), the focus of which is Turley's Mill, north of Taos and the home of Taos Lightning. Exported by Turley since 1831 it found its way to many forts and rondys. Of course Turley's Mill was destroyed in 1847 during the Taos Rebellion where a number of mountain men where either murdered or otherwise involved. Have some new information about the mill and would like to place it not only in context with the Taos Rebellion but also whiskey in the fur trade. Anyone know of articles that have been done on whiskey in the fur trade and where they might be found? Anyone know of decendents of Simeon Turley and their whereabouts? Has anyone ever come across a drawing, floorplan, layout or other significant description of the physical mill and distillery? Does anyone know of 1830's vintage distillery floorplans showing a typical distillery and what activities took place in each of the rooms? Any of this info would be quite helpful. Am working on this now and trying to have it put together soon. Thanks to anyone who can contribute. Pat Surrena #1449 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rust Brown Reciept Date: 04 Mar 1998 18:59:10 -0600 At 12:30 AM 3/4/98 , Yellowfeather, wrote: >Howdy all, > Does anyone know where I can buy >some slow rust browning solution? Most any local chemical supplier should do. 1825 Receipt... To Brown Gun Barrels. After the barrel is finished rub it over with aqua fortis, or spirit of salt, diluted with water. Then lay it by for a week, till a complete coat of oil is formed. A little oil is then to be applied, and after rubbing the surface dry, polish it with a hard brush and a little bees' wax. another from circa 1865... To Brown Iron and Steel Objects. Dissolve 2 parts of crystallized chloride of iron, 2 parts of solid chloride of antimony, and 1 part of gallic acid, in 4 or 5 parts of water. With this moisten a piece of sponge or cloth and apply to the object, a gun-barrel for instance. Let it dry in the air, and repeat the operation several times; then wash with water; dry, and rub with boiled linseed-oil. Objects browned in this way have a very agreeable dead gray appearance, and the shade deepens according to the number of times the operation is repeated. end receipts... Chemical Equivalents Aqua Fortis = Nitric Acid Spirit of Salt = Hydrochloric or Muriatic Acid Chloridizing (converting various metals into a chloride by treating with chlorine or hydrochloric acid) was developed in the late nineteenth century. Gallic or Gallotonnic Acid = Nut Gall derivative. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rust Brown Reciept Date: 05 Mar 1998 00:33:20 -0500 as usual john has good data about a slow browning solution . there is one out there on the market that is similar to the one jon is giving the recipe of it is made by Laurel Mountain forge p.o. box 224 Romeo mi 48065 I dont know the cost but it works ok. it is a slow brown solution and it also claims to be a degreaser. have used before but it has a tendency to pitt and is hard to stop rusting once it is started. the finish produced is a soft brown and not a slick brown. I think i have tried ever type of browning solution out there on the market-- a lot of the solutions use ferric cloride and that seems to grow rust brown. contact me offline and i can give you many recipies on browning solutions I always use the reference book "firearms blueing and browning by r. h. angier and get most of the recipies that i use or mix up. it is a good start for almost any mixture needed for browning or blueing. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 18:59:10 -0600 John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> writes: >At 12:30 AM 3/4/98 , Yellowfeather, wrote: >>Howdy all, >> Does anyone know where I can buy >>some slow rust browning solution? > >Most any local chemical supplier should do. > > >1825 Receipt... > >To Brown Gun Barrels. > >After the barrel is finished rub it over with aqua fortis, or spirit >of >salt, diluted with water. Then lay it by for a week, till a complete >coat >of oil is formed. A little oil is then to be applied, and after >rubbing >the surface dry, polish it with a hard brush and a little bees' wax. > >another from circa 1865... > >To Brown Iron and Steel Objects. > >Dissolve 2 parts of crystallized chloride of iron, 2 parts of solid >chloride of antimony, and 1 part of gallic acid, in 4 or 5 parts of >water. >With this moisten a piece of sponge or cloth and apply to the object, >a >gun-barrel for instance. Let it dry in the air, and repeat the >operation >several times; then wash with water; dry, and rub with boiled >linseed-oil. >Objects browned in this way have a very agreeable dead gray >appearance, and >the shade deepens according to the number of times the operation is >repeated. > >end receipts... > >Chemical Equivalents > >Aqua Fortis = Nitric Acid >Spirit of Salt = Hydrochloric or Muriatic Acid > >Chloridizing (converting various metals into a chloride by treating >with >chlorine or hydrochloric acid) was developed in the late nineteenth >century. > >Gallic or Gallotonnic Acid = Nut Gall derivative. > >John... > > >Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. >John Kramer >kramer@kramerize.com > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: keelboat from st.charles mo. Date: 05 Mar 1998 00:09:02 -0500 i own a house in st charles and have a lot of friends that are in the mountain man stuff. I am a member of the AMM #256 if that tells you how far back i go. I also have several friends in the ill rangers but they don't discuss it with me because of some problems back several years when i threatened to take some hair. did a little canoe ride back several years ago about 45 days and ended at the festival of the little hills in st charles. saw lots of river and and a lot of misquetoes but was a lot of fun. do you know dan saterfield or terry mephy. dan lives in old town and my house is in middle town st charles. a very close friend of mine vernon smith was a menber of the ill rangers for several years. hope they get the boat put together and all is well, drop me a note once and a while enough for now. keep your nose to the wind and your eyes along the skyline. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:36:28 EST Traphand <Traphand@aol.com> writes: >do not know the people you speak of. we left washington to new haven >got >caught in a big storm half up river.my hat is off to the man running >the >boat,he did a great job.i take it that you are a ill.ranger.i an a mo >ranger >out of fort osage along the river. i know a couple of the ill boys.we >ahaving >a symposium up in arrow rock mo. march 28 29it will be about fort >wayne >in1812,tippicanoe,osage trading house atarrow rock,round table >discussion,political maniplation of the militaryin 1812,nathan >boone,osage >indians,amer.cavalry swords 1st infantry at lundys lane. me know and i >will >hook you upto my email. got to run dinner coming, > > traphand > > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Nauga Mok <NaugaMok@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Whiskey in the Fur Trade Date: 05 Mar 1998 02:37:42 EST In a message dated 98-03-04 23:45:20 EST, you write: << Does anyone know of 1830's vintage distillery floorplans showing a typical distillery and what activities took place in each of the rooms? >> Might check with Jim Beam -- they been cookin' whisky since 1795. One of the few still existing "period" American distilleries. They're pretty proud of their history -- expecialy since they just celebrated their 200th year of whisky making. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Nauga Mok <NaugaMok@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Running ball Date: 05 Mar 1998 02:37:53 EST In a message dated 98-03-04 10:17:35 EST, you write: << However, I don't have any real good sources on what the molds were like at that point. Has any body seen something they could reccomend? >> Rapine makes what you want. Tad pricy compared to the brass molds Dixie Gun Works sells (about $10 higher), but much higher quality than DGW. I have both brands & of the 2 DGW molds I have, one is off size -- supposed to be a .440, but throws .428 - .431 -- quite a bit undersized. The .490 from them runs pretty true to size ( +.002 fluctuation). Both Rapines I have are dead nutz on size with less size fluctuation than the DGWs & don't have the dimple in the bottom the DGWs have so will have full weight that size ball should have. The DGWs I have have some irregularities in the machining causing some ridging in the ball's surface -- Rapine has much smoother machining, therefore casts a smoother ball. If you just want a mold to stick in your bag & occasionaly run a few ball by the campfire & do most of your casting at home with your lead furnace & multiple cavity molds, then the DGW molds will work as a good period bag mold. If, on the other hand, you're looking to get only 1 mold to do all your casting for that size, get the Rapine. Rapine also makes excelent double cavity production molds if you don't mind aluminum molds & learn how to use them -- they work a bit differently than the steel molds. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" <allen@blueridge-ef.SAIC.COM> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gardens Date: 05 Mar 1998 09:00:42 -0500 Longwalker, I have bottle/birdhouse seeds. I tried canteen gourds last year and they didn't do well. Will try them again this year. What are Indian melons? You can sure start gardens early out that way. I don't feel safe until the 1st of May. Repost your snail mail to me and I'll send you some seeds. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Whiskey in the Fur Trade Date: 05 Mar 1998 09:49:02 -0600 (CST) >Need some help on sources. > >Am doing a paper (who knows where it will end up going), the focus of which is >Turley's Mill, north of Taos and the home of Taos Lightning. Exported by >Turley since 1831 it found its way to many forts and rondys. Of course >Turley's Mill was destroyed in 1847 during the Taos Rebellion where a number >of mountain men where either murdered or otherwise involved. Have some new >information about the mill and would like to place it not only in context with >the Taos Rebellion but also whiskey in the fur trade. > >Anyone know of articles that have been done on whiskey in the fur trade and >where they might be found? There is a good book called _Whiskey Peddler: John Healy, North Frontier Trader_, by William R. Hunt (1993), which deals in part with his role in the whiskey trade between Montana and Canada. It wasn't during the Rendezvous era, but in the 1860s, after HBC gave up Rupert's Lands in Alberta, and left a vaccuum which the Canadian government was unable to fill until the (1874) creation of the Northwest Mounted Police. Until that time, the whiskey trade was wide open and unregulated. American officials squelched the trade which had operated out of Fort Benton, but traders simply moved to Alberta and established Fort Hamilton (the precursor to the city of Calgary) and inticed trading Indians to travel up the Whoop Up Trail to trade furs, robes, etc for goods and whiskey (Fort Hamilton was also called Fort Whoop Up). It is a fascinating story of commerce, diplomacy, and good old adventure. The book is well written and well illustrated with photos and maps. The publisher is Mountain Press Publishing, out of Missoula. Worth the 12.00 price, although I found mine at Half-Price Books. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ************* So Long, Harry ************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Whiskey in the Fur Trade Date: 05 Mar 1998 09:51:50 -0600 (CST) ><< Does anyone know of 1830's vintage distillery floorplans showing a typical > distillery and what activities took place in each of the rooms? >> > > >Might check with Jim Beam -- they been cookin' whisky since 1795. One of the >few still existing "period" American distilleries. They're pretty proud of >their history -- expecialy since they just celebrated their 200th year of >whisky making. > >NM Beam's website is www.jimbeam.com Yahoo has a good list of other whiskey websites at http://www.yahoo.com/Business_and_Economy/Companies/Drinks/Alcoholic/Whiskey / HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ************* So Long, Harry ************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Cardon"<lcardon@insurquote.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Running ball Date: 05 Mar 1998 10:50:00 -0700 Anybody have a phone number for the Rapine company? Thanks... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Metcalfe <wmi@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Soapmaking Date: 05 Mar 1998 11:02:17 -0700 Well Jim, You got another something started around the cabin now. Made a small batch of soap from the information found on the link you provided. Also, in the information, is a table of numbers for use in substituting fats. In place of dripping ashes (percolating water through a box of ashes) to obtain the lye and then cooking with an uncertain amount of fat, I chose to use a lye that had already been concentrated (Red Devil). Also, I substituted some vegetable oil and coconut oil for some of the tallow using the numbers in the table. You don't have to cook these recipes at all - they are done at about 85 F verses the 125 F recommended in the link site. I found that it's the coconut oil in "Kirks" cold water Castile that provides the lather. You are suppose-to wait 3 or 4 weeks before using to allow the soap to become milder but just had to try mine the other day (6 days). I'm very pleased with the results and will be mixing up a different recipe this afternoon. By-the-way, I used lard in place of tallow for a portion of the fat. It's the lard or tallow that caused the objectionable scent we hear about and may have experienced. You can cook-up a concentrated brew of pine needles, sage, or other plants to add to cover most meat scent. It's easy and fun and as usual comes with the satisfaction you get when making things yourself. Jim Lindberg wrote: > I was out surfing and found this soapmaking page, I have no ties. > > http://members.aol.com/oelaineo/soapmaking.html -- William Metcalfe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA <RR1LA@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Running ball Date: 05 Mar 1998 13:05:58 EST >From personal experience, the Dixie Molds are NOT very precision. Found that mine is slightly oversized, and that it also produces circular ridges on the ball. Also, there is a flat spot on one side of the ball. The balls I have seen run from Rapine molds have appeared to be perfect. Like many things we buy in life, it seems you get what you pay for. PJ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jack-scratch@juno.com (Richard D Heyen) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Rust Brown Reciept Date: 05 Mar 1998 15:22:05 EST It is my understanding that the best browning results are achieved not by one application, but by repeated applications and cleanings. The more times you brown it and clean it of. The better your brown will be. I highly recomend Foxfire 5. It covers browning and more, plus it should be easy to find. Sincerely, Jack Scratch Drew Heyen jack-scratch@juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawker Amm <HawkerAmm@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Running ball Date: 05 Mar 1998 18:58:57 EST Check RAPINE BAG MOULDS. Excellent period molds. they are located at Rapine Bullet Mould Mfg. Co. 9503 Landis Lane East Greenville, PA 18041 For two bucks they will send you a catalog. Hawker ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand <Traphand@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: keelboat from st.charles mo. Date: 05 Mar 1998 17:27:55 EST HAWK,ITHINK I MAY KNOW TERRY MURPHY IT RINGS A BELL,IS VEMON AN OLD GUY WITH WHITE HAIR AN THIN AROUND IN HIS 60S.I ALSO USED TO BE IN THE AMM UNTIL PROBLEMS IN THE PARTY.NOW WE TRAK WITH A LOT OF EX MUNBERS. GOT ONE IN THE WORKS THIS COMING APRIL.YOUR NUMBER IS A EARLY ONE.MINE WAS 1205IN 88 THE CLERK E WAS LARRY MAYES. GOD IT HAS BEEN A LONG TIME SURE FLYS BY FAST. I RECALL THE FIRST AMM DOING I WENT IN OHIO BAD TIMEAND PLACE IT WAS LIKE CAMPING AT A K.O.A. MEET ALOT GOOD SOULS.LAST ONE I WENT TO WAS IN SOUTHERN MISSOURI A FEW YEAR BACK HAD ONE GREAT TIME SHOOTING AND TRAPPING.RECALL GOING TO LITTLE ROCK THEY HAD A DUGOUTDOWN THERE/HAVE YOU EVER USED ONE SURE SAT LOW IN THE WATER.GOT TO RUN. KEEP IN TOUCH. TRAPHAND ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rick Williams <ERWILLIA@UCSNet.Apollo> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Soapmaking Date: 05 Mar 1998 17:47:29 -0600 (MDT) Well give us your recipe and cooking instructions!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rick Williams <ERWILLIA@UCSNet.Apollo> Subject: MtMan-List: Mississippi/Louisiana Sites Date: 05 Mar 1998 17:52:24 -0600 (MDT) I'm visiting Louisiana and Mississippi the end of April. It would be nice to know of some sites to visit. I've got Vicksburg and the War of 1812 site outside of New Orleans to see. Any others that might be interesting. Maybe even some sutlers. Thanks Rick Williams ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA <RR1LA@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Running ball Date: 05 Mar 1998 20:09:23 EST Rapine Bullet Mould Company is located at 9503 Landis Lane East Greenville, Pennsylvania 18041 PJ. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA <RR1LA@aol.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Running Ball Date: 05 Mar 1998 20:22:09 EST The phone number for Rapine Bullet Mould Mfg. Company is 215-679-5413. Sorry I wasn't reading the previous post, thought you asked for address. PJ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123 <Casapy123@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Whiskey in the Fur Trade Date: 06 Mar 1998 01:17:09 EST Pat, For some info on use of liquor in the fur trade, particularly with the American Fur Co, try Don Berry, "A Majority of Scoundrels" and David Lavender, "A Fist in the Wilderness." Both are readily available and while somewhat general in nature, may at least have some references you can use. Jim Hardee AMM #1676 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mstar176@wf.net (Basha Richey) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mississippi/Louisiana Sites Date: 06 Mar 1998 00:56:32 +0100 > Any others that might be >interesting. Maybe even some sutlers. > Rick, If you can make it up to Natchitoches in the west central part of the state it might be worth a look. The city is the oldest permanent settlement in La. Fort St. Jean Baptiste was established by Juchereau de St. Denis in 1714, to off-set the Spanish influence in Texas. It had a population of almost 3000 in 1810 and was a major route for settlers traveling to Texas, in it's early history. It was served by riverboat traffic untill, the river changed course in the 1830's. They have a reconstruction of the French fort, many old homes near the river, some business buildings that were bulit in 1830's (one still has the original gaslights). The Melrose Plantation south of town has several buildings made of hand carved cypress and a giant live oak in the front yard that has a drip line of at least 45 paces. They claim to know that the tree is over 220 years old. They have a building where they made their own fabrics from the cotton they grew and it still contains a loom. Nachitoches also has some civil war history and they have a nice, small museum. They are famous for Meat pies which they sold to travelers passing through. Also good food in town, and no, I don't work for the chamber of commerce! Good luck, John "Yellow Stone" Richey Chico, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JFLEMYTH <JFLEMYTH@aol.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Laurel Mountain Forge browning solution Date: 06 Mar 1998 07:59:22 EST I just finished two barrels using Laurel Mountain's solution. Both came out pretty well, and niether one was degreased first. Each one took me about three days, with about four coats per day. So far, the coats seem even and durrable. I havn't had any problems with pitting, even though I tried leaving a coat on over night once. Both were finished by rubbing on a coat of boiled linseed oil. That really brought the color out nicely. The important thing is to keep your coats extremely even. There are some small spots around the fixed sights that came out a little discolored. Also, coats should be kept nice and light, with cleaning the barrel between each coat to remove scaling. I also did mine in the upstairs bathroom for humidity! As for the cost, I paid $6.75 for a bottle that did two full barrels and all the mounts for one of the rifles. I even have about one fourth of the bottle left. All in all, I thought it was good stuff. I'll use it in future. John Fleming ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg <jal@cray.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Soapmaking Date: 06 Mar 1998 09:09:48 -0600 I remember making soap in chemistry class in high school (a long time ago). It's something I've been going to try again, but pretty low on the list. B^) One of the Foxfire books covers soap making too. Be like Granny on the Beverly Hillbillies and mix up a batch by the cement pond. B^) Glad the site was of help. Jim /`-_ Jim Lindberg |Les Voyageurs du Val du Chippewa { . }/ 724 East Grand Avenue | \ / Chippewa Falls, WI 54729 USA |Sweete water and light laughter, |___| http://reality.sgi.com/jal/ |Until we next meete. Go Gentle. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Metcalfe <wmi@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mississippi/Louisiana Sites Date: 06 Mar 1998 07:18:37 -0700 Rick, Soapmaking: A hyper link should have been in the quoted original message that was included in my reply. Anyway here it is: http://members.aol.com/oelaineo/soapmaking.html Rick Williams wrote: > Well give us your recipe and cooking instructions!!!! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>...........<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Trip: Also, in response to your visit to Louisiana and Mississippi, you must visit and travel the Natchez Trace which was an emigration and trade route of the Natchez Indians, early settlers and others. I believe it stretches from the Appalachians down to at least Natchez, MS. You should be able to find considerable information about it on the net. The Natchez area is part of my family's history - still a few of us there. Have fun! Rick Williams wrote: > I'm visiting Louisiana and Mississippi the end of April. It would be > nice to know of some sites to visit. I've got Vicksburg and the War > of 1812 site outside of New Orleans to see. Any others that might be > interesting. Maybe even some sutlers. > > Thanks > Rick Williams -- William Metcalfe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Whiskey in the Fur Trade Date: 06 Mar 1998 09:24:45 -0700 mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) wrote : >There is a good book called _Whiskey Peddler: John Healy, North Frontier >Trader_, by William R. Hunt (1993), which deals in part with his role in >the whiskey trade between Montana and Canada. It wasn't during the >Rendezvous era, but in the 1860s, after HBC gave up Rupert's Lands in >Alberta, and left a vaccuum which the Canadian government was unable to >fill until the (1874) creation of the Northwest Mounted Police. Until that >time, the whiskey trade was wide open and unregulated. American officials >squelched the trade which had operated out of Fort Benton, but traders >simply moved to Alberta and established Fort Hamilton (the precursor to the >city of Calgary) and inticed trading Indians to travel up the Whoop Up >Trail to trade furs, robes, etc for goods and whiskey (Fort Hamilton was >also called Fort Whoop Up). It's not my period, but it IS my neighborhood, so I have to add a couple of notes: the whisky trade started up after the HBC ceded 'Rupert's Land' (Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta) to Canada in 1869. In May 1873, about 30 Assiniboine Indians were massacred by whites near the whisky fort called Farwell's Post (the Cypress Hills Massacre). As a result, the NWMP was formed to clamp down on the illicit whisky trade here in Alberta. There were a number of other small whisky posts, such as Kipp's Post, Standoff, and Slideout, but Fort Hamilton was the big one. It is much better-known here as Fort Whoop-up. It was not on the site of Calgary; it is a few hundred miles to the south, on the site of the city of Lethbridge. In fact, the recreated Fort Whoop-up is in Lethbridge, and Lethbridge celebrates Whoop-up Days every year. Calgary was pretty much bald prairie until the NWMP arrived and set up Fort Calgary in 1875. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" <allen@blueridge-ef.SAIC.COM> Subject: MtMan-List: Trip to Alabama Date: 06 Mar 1998 11:38:33 -0500 Hello the list, Just got word that I will be travelling to the Anniston/Ft. McClellan, Al. area the last week in March and the first week in April. If anyone on the list is in that area and would like to get together for Supper/ale or just a visit, let me know. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sean@naplesnet.com (Addison O. Miller) Subject: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 06 Mar 1998 11:57:43 -0500 I am taking a FANTASTIC trip this summer (August)to Nebraska and the Dakotas. Am definately going to stop and see the Museum of the Fur Trade, the Black Hills, Cabella's <chuckles>, etc... Anyone got any other points of interest in Nebraska and the Dakotas to see with regards to the Fur Trade?? Any help would be appreciated. I'd love some little out of the way places that are not well known... ghost towns, etc... Thanks Addison Miller aka SeanBear ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sean@naplesnet.com (Addison O. Miller) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Whiskey in the Fur Trade Date: 06 Mar 1998 11:54:22 -0500 There is an authentic receipe on my web page... sorry, the sender of the email to me and the hard copy have been lost... Check www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/1427 Addison Miller >Pat, > >For some info on use of liquor in the fur trade, particularly with the >American Fur Co, try Don Berry, "A Majority of Scoundrels" and David Lavender, >"A Fist in the Wilderness." Both are readily available and while somewhat >general in nature, may at least have some references you can use. > >Jim Hardee >AMM #1676 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn <jc60714@navix.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 06 Mar 1998 15:36:45 -0600 Washtahay- At 11:57 AM 3/6/98 -0500, you wrote: >I am taking a FANTASTIC trip this summer (August)to Nebraska and the >Dakotas. Am definately going to stop and see the Museum of the Fur Trade, >the Black Hills, Cabella's <chuckles>, etc... Anyone got any other points of >interest in Nebraska and the Dakotas to see with regards to the Fur Trade?? Well, Fort Atkinson would be one good point to stop at, as would the Joslyn Museum, the Nebraska State Historical Society Museum, Morrill Hall, Stuhr Museum, that-museum-at-Hastings-that-I-always-forget-the-name-of, maybe a side trip to the Lewis and Clark site in IA, a day kicking around the Pine Ridge or hiking near Scott's Bluff, Fort Robinson, maybe a visit to an archaeological dig, give me a little time and I can come up with a few more goodies. > >Any help would be appreciated. I'd love some little out of the way places >that are not well known... ghost towns, etc... Ain't got any real ghost towns in Nebraska. Might put you onto a spring up in the Sand Hills about five miles from the road-several years ago I packed some trout back to it. Doin' fine last I saw. I can put you onto some old Indian campsites, bison kill sites, historical graves, graveyards, massacre sites-I have lived here most of my life. Let's get together on this. Offer goes for anyone else, too. LongWalker c du B. (and tourist guide) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pamela Wheeler" <rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Laurel Mountain Forge browning solution Date: 06 Mar 1998 13:16:02 -0600 Got an address? Sounds worth looking at! And I don't have to hunt for the chemicals! Or mix them! Ken ---------- > From: JFLEMYTH <JFLEMYTH@aol.com> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Laurel Mountain Forge browning solution > Date: Friday, March 06, 1998 6:59 AM > > I just finished two barrels using Laurel Mountain's solution. Both came out > pretty well, and niether one was degreased first. Each one took me about > three days, with about four coats per day. So far, the coats seem even and > durrable. I havn't had any problems with pitting, even though I tried leaving > a coat on over night once. Both were finished by rubbing on a coat of boiled > linseed oil. That really brought the color out nicely. > > The important thing is to keep your coats extremely even. There are some > small spots around the fixed sights that came out a little discolored. Also, > coats should be kept nice and light, with cleaning the barrel between each > coat to remove scaling. I also did mine in the upstairs bathroom for > humidity! > > As for the cost, I paid $6.75 for a bottle that did two full barrels and all > the mounts for one of the rifles. I even have about one fourth of the bottle > left. > > All in all, I thought it was good stuff. I'll use it in future. > > John Fleming ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Whiskey in the Fur Trade Date: 06 Mar 1998 17:19:28 -0600 (CST) > but Fort Hamilton was the big one. It is much >better-known here as Fort Whoop-up. It was not on the site of Calgary; it is >a few hundred miles to the south, on the site of the city of Lethbridge. In >fact, the recreated Fort Whoop-up is in Lethbridge, and Lethbridge >celebrates Whoop-up Days every year. Calgary was pretty much bald prairie >until the NWMP arrived and set up Fort Calgary in 1875. > >Your humble & obedient servant, >Angela Gottfred Angela, are you familiar with Jack Gladstone's song "Whoop Up Trail"? Jack performed it at a museum conference I attended in Missoula last fall. He's a Blackfoot living in Kalispell, and quite a balladeer. Thanks for correcting me on the location of the fort. I am glad they've recreated it. How is the reconstruction, pretty accurate or Disney-esque? Is the event worth going to? HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ************* So Long, Harry ************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HKUSP9410 <HKUSP9410@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 06 Mar 1998 18:54:55 EST In a message dated 98-03-06 17:35:47 EST, you write: << Ain't got any real ghost towns in Nebraska. Might put you onto a spring up in the Sand Hills about five miles from the road-several years ago I packed some trout back to it. Doin' fine last I saw. I can put you onto some old Indian campsites, bison kill sites, historical graves, graveyards, massacre sites-I have lived here most of my life. Let's get together on this. Offer goes for anyone else, too. LongWalker c du B. (and tourist guide) >> I am in Denver, CO and I ocassionally wander over to McConahay for some catfishin. How close are ya to there??? Mebe sometime I come over and just wander the hills some? Watch yer TopKnot Missouri Mule ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mtnman1449 <Mtnman1449@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 06 Mar 1998 19:14:26 EST You'll be on the 'road', the North Platte. Check out the river. Walk along it. Feel it. That's where 'they" went. Check out where the South Platte breaks off from the North platte. Get the journals that talk about where they camped. Stephen H. Long's expedition, described in "From Pittsburgh to the rocky Mountains" by Maxine Benson is excellent for that. Pat. Surrena #1449 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 06 Mar 1998 17:35:36 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD4926.4611D2C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last July my new bride and I went on our honeymoon to SD WY MT ID the museum of the fur trade is excellent, come from the south to The Mammoth site at Hot Springs SD then up to Crazy Horse Mont. Mt Rushmore, to Deadwood SD, Sturgis SD, go west to WY to Devils Tower, North to The Crow reservation at the battle of the bighorn. You'll love it. We did. This year we are going to Pierres Hole ID near Driggs ID To our AMM national for a few days then to some fishing in Yellowstone. Well have fun I could tell you more places in WY but you didn't say you were going west much. Later Jon Towns ---------- : From: Addison O. Miller <sean@naplesnet.com> : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: August trip : Date: Friday, March 06, 1998 8:57 AM : : I am taking a FANTASTIC trip this summer (August)to Nebraska and the : Dakotas. Am definately going to stop and see the Museum of the Fur Trade, : the Black Hills, Cabella's <chuckles>, etc... Anyone got any other points of : interest in Nebraska and the Dakotas to see with regards to the Fur Trade?? : : Any help would be appreciated. I'd love some little out of the way places : that are not well known... ghost towns, etc... : : Thanks : : Addison Miller : aka SeanBear : ------=_NextPart_000_01BD4926.4611D2C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">Last July my new bride and I went on = our honeymoon to SD WY MT ID the museum of the fur trade is excellent, = come from the south to The Mammoth site at Hot Springs SD then up to = Crazy Horse Mont. Mt Rushmore, to Deadwood SD, Sturgis = SD, go west to WY to Devils Tower, North to The Crow = reservation at the battle of the bighorn. You'll love it. We = did. This year we are going to Pierres Hole ID near Driggs ID To = our AMM national for a few days then to some fishing in Yellowstone. = Well have fun I could tell you more places in WY but you didn't = say you were going west much. Later Jon = Towns ---------- : From: Addison O. Miller <sean@naplesnet.com> : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: August trip : Date: = Friday, March 06, 1998 8:57 AM : : I am taking a FANTASTIC trip = this summer (August)to Nebraska and the : Dakotas. Am definately = going to stop and see the Museum of the Fur Trade, : the Black Hills, = Cabella's <chuckles>, etc... Anyone got any other points of : = interest in Nebraska and the Dakotas to see with regards to the Fur = Trade?? : : Any help would be appreciated. I'd love some = little out of the way places : that are not well known... ghost = towns, etc... : : Thanks : : Addison Miller : aka = SeanBear : </body></html> ------=_NextPart_000_01BD4926.4611D2C0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing <SWcushing@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trip to Alabama Date: 07 Mar 1998 02:36:52 EST Scott, I just finished reading your outstanding article on Fort Frederick in this month's "Muzzleloader". It is on the top of my list of places to visit when I get back east. I'll show you Fort Vancouver iffin you get out this way. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: keelboat from st.charles mo. Date: 07 Mar 1998 10:52:05 -0500 yes vernon is getting very gray hared him and evelin have moved to bauluxia miss. he is doing a lit of wood carving but not many guns as he did. he is getting quite old but still has a lot of tallent. his AMM # is around 150's. terry has kind of dropped off the face of the map bought some land in south central mo. and i dont know where. havent seen him in about 2 or 3 years. My second AMM doins was the first annual goat and pig shoot put on by dale Black and pappy horn. we used the oka valley land and held our doins. the contest was a trial for even a real mountain man. it consisted of about 15 shots, set a trap in a running stream, and all the targets you had to find yourself. most of them were moving that were released by one of the guides that went with you. you had to follow sign through the woods and figure where they were and what to do. It was a hel of a lot of fun. I think i only found 10 of the targets and killed them all the rest i have no idea where they were. dale was my scorkeeper and wouldnt tell me anything. for the tommahawk there was a target on the back of the block that you had to hit. not on the front. the front of the block has your knife target. Orval Humphry was the oficial at the knife and hawk part of the match. the tommahawk matches at friendship are named after him. he taught me the art of plain and fancy tommahawk throwing. I spent many hrs with him and lost a lot of handles in the process. this has sure gotten off the keel boat stuff that we started with. must close for now got a order for a bunch of turkey calls that have to be made and shipped. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:27:55 EST Traphand <Traphand@aol.com> writes: >HAWK,ITHINK I MAY KNOW TERRY MURPHY IT RINGS A BELL,IS VEMON AN OLD >GUY WITH >WHITE HAIR AN THIN AROUND IN HIS 60S.I ALSO USED TO BE IN THE AMM >UNTIL >PROBLEMS IN THE PARTY.NOW WE TRAK WITH A LOT OF EX MUNBERS. GOT ONE >IN THE >WORKS THIS COMING APRIL.YOUR NUMBER IS A EARLY ONE.MINE WAS 1205IN 88 >THE >CLERK E >WAS LARRY MAYES. GOD IT HAS BEEN A LONG TIME SURE FLYS BY FAST. >I RECALL THE FIRST AMM DOING I WENT IN OHIO BAD TIMEAND PLACE IT WAS >LIKE >CAMPING AT A K.O.A. MEET ALOT GOOD SOULS.LAST ONE I WENT TO WAS IN >SOUTHERN >MISSOURI A FEW YEAR BACK HAD ONE GREAT TIME SHOOTING AND >TRAPPING.RECALL >GOING TO LITTLE ROCK THEY HAD A DUGOUTDOWN THERE/HAVE YOU EVER USED >ONE SURE >SAT LOW IN THE WATER.GOT TO RUN. KEEP IN TOUCH. > > TRAPHAND > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JFLEMYTH <JFLEMYTH@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Laurel Mountain Forge browning solution Date: 07 Mar 1998 13:38:37 EST I got my Laurel Mountain at "Ye Old Blackpowder Shoppe" here in Michigan. (They also do mail order.) IT is a few hours drive from my house, so I have only been there that one time, but I sure was impressed. There address is: Ye Old Blackpowder Shoppe P.O. Box 14 994 W. Midland Road Auburn, Michigan 48611 (517) 662-2271 There catalog is four dollars and has more than 120 pages of goods. They also have some custom front stuffers that are not included in the catalog. If you want the Laurel Mountain Forge solution, it's $6.75. It's inventory # is 26-24. It's on page 62 of their 8th edition catalog. That should be all you need to get it. I would reccomend getting their catalog too. It's not the best I've seen, but it's up there. John Fleming ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio <JSeminerio@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mississippi/Louisiana Sites Date: 07 Mar 1998 18:07:06 EST out in Villcherie about 45 minutes on the far side of the airport is the Laura Plantation. We went this year during Mardi Gras week. It was real nice. Get a book called Louisiana Day Ride, it has day trips 1, 2, 3 & 4 hours from New Orleans. We go every year at least once. Feel free to E-mail me. If you go eat at Spuddy's it ain't fancy but the food is gooooooood ! Watch your topknot JS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ITWHEELER <ITWHEELER@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Whiskey in the Fur Trade Date: 07 Mar 1998 23:56:21 EST i enjoy your tid bits of information ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek <llsi@texas.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 08 Mar 1998 16:25:09 -0600 Addison O. Miller wrote: > > I am taking a FANTASTIC trip this summer (August)to Nebraska and the > Dakotas. ... Anyone got any other points of > interest in Nebraska and the Dakotas to see with regards to the Fur Trade?? Depends on how much of those territories you would like to traverse, but there's Fort Union (other end of N. Dakota, and the site is actually partly in Montana); Reconstruction of Fort Mandan, N. of Bismarck, where Lewis & Clark spent there first winter (the original site washed away when the Wide Missouri changed it's mind; Site of Fort Clark, a fur trading post, N. of Bismarck (hardly anything left, but a good place to reflect); and the Mandan- Hidatsa Villages ( I think they now call it three knives or something like that. The last three sites are close to each other. Are you driving from FL? If you are coming thru Kansas City, see the Arabia riverboat museum where they dug up a 1946? sunken riverboat. But don't drool like I did at the tons of actual period stuff they salvaged. And the cemetary where Jim Bridger is buried (near Independence) And in St. Louis, the Gateway Museum is relatively school-childish, but has some good stuff. Iron Burner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek <llsi@texas.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gardens Date: 08 Mar 1998 16:35:59 -0600 Longwalker wrote: > bottle gourd seeds I found that http://www.seedman.com/Rachel/Gourds.htm has bottle gourd seeds and other gourd seeds. Iron Burner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Longtrail <ezra@midrivers.com> Subject: MtMan-List: fabric reproductions 1775-1950 Date: 08 Mar 1998 17:13:45 +0000 Found a site that specializes in reproduction fabrics. Really beautiful. http://www.patchworks-usa.com Happy sewing ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand <Traphand@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: keelboat from st.charles mo. Date: 08 Mar 1998 19:51:34 EST do you know what happened to paddy horn have not seen him in a few years.did a photo shoot of the harper ferry rilfe that is in muzzeloader 2 book of. paddy put two small nail in the wall to hold the rilfe up. i took one photo before the rilfe fall to the floor.it creaked the wrist right in back on the breech. glad i did not do the nailing.about this time john the owner of the gun had himself a good scream.yes it is a far cry from the keelboat good by my friend traphand P.S. IT ODD WHO WE BOTH KNOW ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Whiskey in the Fur Trade Date: 08 Mar 1998 19:51:41 -0700 mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) wrote: >Angela, are you familiar with Jack Gladstone's song "Whoop Up Trail"? Jack >performed it at a museum conference I attended in Missoula last fall. He's >a Blackfoot living in Kalispell, and quite a balladeer. No; sounds like it's right up my alley though. Has he got a tape or CD? I'm always keen on folk/country singers with a taste for history. Canada seems to have a fair number of these folks, if you know where to find them : Great Western Orchestra, Tamarack, & of course the patron saint of Canadian folk, Stan Rogers. The Gladstones are a well-known family here in Alberta--James Gladstone was Alberta's first Native senator, about 30 years ago. > Thanks for >correcting me on the location of the fort. I am glad they've recreated it. >How is the reconstruction, pretty accurate or Disney-esque? Well, as I said, it's not my period, but it does look just like the historic photographs. Understaffed, of course, but I think it's probably worth a visit if you're in Lethbridge. (We'll be at Fort Whoop-up to give a talk & demo next month, so I can give you an update if you want.) The setting is excellent--it's down in a deep wide river valley, so that you can't see the city (although there is that HUGE train bridge traversing the valley). > Is the event worth going to? Whoops! Sorry, "Whoop-Up Days" isn't a reenactment event. Although I've never been, I understand that it is more like the Calgary Stampede--a big rodeo, fair & exhibition, with only a very small nod to history. The black powder guys down there have a big shoot on the Labour Day weekend, but I understand they don't have any serious reenactors down there. (I'd be quite happy to be proven wrong--I'm always looking to recruit.) Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" <allen@blueridge-ef.SAIC.COM> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trip to Alabama Date: 09 Mar 1998 09:07:27 -0500 Steve, Thanks so much for the kind words about my article. I'd be glad to show you around when you get back here and would be glad to see Ft. Vancouver too. I'm out at Ft. Lewis (Seattle) every once in awhile so could probably swing a tour there. See ya! Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tigrbo1 <tigrbo1@ibm.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tripping to the N.W. Date: 08 Mar 1998 21:54:07 -0800 Greetings Scott, I must concure with Steve on your article on Fort Frederick, I'd love to tour it. If you happen to find yourself in the Seattle area, I'm sure I could arrange a tour of Fort Nisqually. Best regards, Terry Smith SWcushing wrote: > > Scott, > I just finished reading your outstanding article on Fort Frederick in >this month's "Muzzleloader". It is on the top of my list of places to >visit when I get back east. I'll show you Fort Vancouver iffin you get >out this way. > Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mstar176@wf.net (Basha Richey) Subject: MtMan-List: Sack hats Date: 09 Mar 1998 11:11:20 +0100 Longtrail, Nice link for reproduction fabrics. Patchworks, is going on my favorite list. I was particularly intrested in the indigo material. Wes Housler had a nice period piece at the RMNR last year in Montana. It was a cap made from a scrap of wool, essentially a bag with exagerated corners (to resemble ears) with one side cut out for his face. There are many examples in Alfred Jacob Millers artwork of this type of headgear. The one that comes to mind, is the oil painting of the "Trappers Bride". Two of the trappers in the background are wearing "sacks". It seems to me, that if you didn't have a hat, that one of these simple creations would be a good substitute. Miller also shows hunters using them to approach game, on all-fours, as camoflodge. In the AJM painting titled "Trappers and horses around a fire" used as an illustration in Ruxtons "Life In The Far West"(edited by Hafen) is a trapper wearing a "sack" made with a checked or crossed, striped pattern. Since the bags were made out of anything that was available (my opinion) then a piece if the woven Indigo from patchworks might be a nice piece of material for a reproduction of that trappers "Sky Piece". I believe Paul Mueller said in a recent link, that hoods were not attached to capotes, rather were buttoned or tied on. Am I wrong about the "sacks" or were they hoods for Capotes? Miller's paintings have few, if any capotes, but it was summertime. If anybody would like to shed light on the origins of the "sacks", I would be glad to hear it. John Richey "Yellow Stone" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Schaaf Dick <Schaaf_Dick@prc.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 09 Mar 1998 11:07:22 -0500 Jim, you hit most of the best; I'd add Ft Hartsuff to the list. It's not quite fur trade period, but it's good! The state parks should be on the web, and they do offer quite a bit - Like ft Atkinson, Ft Robinson, and Ft hHartsuff. Jim, I spend a good bit of time around Burwell and Brewster in the sandhills. One of these days we'll have to link up. Dick > ---------- > From: Jim Colburn > Well, Fort Atkinson would be one good point to stop at, as > would the > Joslyn Museum, the Nebraska State Historical Society Museum, Morrill > Hall, > Stuhr Museum, > that-museum-at-Hastings-that-I-always-forget-the-name-of, > maybe a side trip to the Lewis and Clark site in IA, a day kicking > around > the Pine Ridge or hiking near Scott's Bluff, Fort Robinson.... > LongWalker c du B. (and tourist guide) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pamela Wheeler" <rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tripping to the N.W. Date: 09 Mar 1998 09:43:28 -0600 This is starting to sound so good that I may run away from home and tag along behind Scott! Oh for the good old days when we could just say to heck with it and run off to the mountains! Did I hear someone say something about the Museum of the Fur Trade in Chadron being sold? If so, does anyone know where it will be moved to? We stopped off there in 1975 after the Henry's Fork rendezvous. Do they still publish a bulletin? YellowFeather AMM 251 ---------- > From: tigrbo1 <tigrbo1@ibm.net> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tripping to the N.W. > Date: Sunday, March 08, 1998 11:54 PM > > Greetings Scott, > > I must concure with Steve on your article on Fort Frederick, I'd love > to tour it. If you happen to find yourself in the Seattle area, I'm sure > I could arrange a tour of Fort Nisqually. > > Best regards, > > Terry Smith > > > SWcushing wrote: > > > > Scott, > > I just finished reading your outstanding article on Fort Frederick in >this month's "Muzzleloader". It is on the top of my list of places to >visit when I get back east. I'll show you Fort Vancouver iffin you get >out this way. > > Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pamela Wheeler" <rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fabric reproductions 1775-1950 Date: 09 Mar 1998 11:39:04 -0600 Really super fabrics! Thanks for the info. YellowFeather ---------- > From: Longtrail <ezra@midrivers.com> > To: hist_text@xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: fabric reproductions 1775-1950 > Date: Sunday, March 08, 1998 11:13 AM > > Found a site that specializes in reproduction fabrics. Really > beautiful. http://www.patchworks-usa.com > Happy sewing ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE <LODGEPOLE@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 09 Mar 1998 18:39:21 EST In a message dated 98-03-08 17:47:30 EST, you write: << And in St. Louis, the Gateway Museum is relatively school-childish, but has some good stuff. >> Just pass on that and go to the Museum of History. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE <LODGEPOLE@aol.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Pappy Horn Date: 09 Mar 1998 18:42:50 EST Last time I saw Pappy was about 4 years ago at the trade show in Effingham, Ill. Heard he was at Fort De Chartres last year but didn't see him. Effingham is the end of the month and maybe he will be set up there again. I'll let you know if I see him there. Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek <llsi@texas.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sack hats Date: 09 Mar 1998 21:27:15 -0600 John Richey wrote: > Wes Housler had a nice period piece at the RMNR last year in Montana. > It was a cap made from a scrap of wool, essentially a bag with exagerated > corners (to resemble ears) with one side cut out for his face. There are > many examples in Alfred Jacob Millers artwork of this type of headgear. . . . If anybody would like to shed light on > the origins of the "sacks", I would be glad to hear it. In Miller's notes for "Approaching the Buffalo" he writes: "The Hunters form for themselves a peculiar kind of cap, - it has two ears with a flap reaching the shoulders. - This is worn with a double object in view, - one of which is to deceive the buffalo in approaching; - under such guise the Hunter is mistaken by the animal for a wolf, & is suffered to advance quite near. - The mop of hair covering the fore-head of teh Buffalo obscures his sight & aids the trapper in his deception." (Editorializing and opinion starts here) In spite of being such a well-documented type of headgear, I have never seen one at any rendezvous I have ever attended. But you see plenty of animal-skin with head headdresses, which might be difficult to document. Sounds like the wolf-ear cap is an excellent candidate for a very worthwhile project. Iron Burner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 09 Mar 1998 21:48:40 -0600 (CST) >In a message dated 98-03-08 17:47:30 EST, you write: > ><< And in St. Louis, the Gateway Museum is relatively school-childish, but > has some good stuff. >> >Just pass on that and go to the Museum of History. I beg to differ. You might call ahead, talk to a curator, and make an appointment to see some of the collections (which are first-rate) Sometimes all it takes is a phone call. It helps to do a bit of background reading on the subject before you make your call. Be as specific as possible about what you wish to see, such as strikers, firearms (be specific), lighting devices, or clothing. If there's anything we curators despise is someone who "just wants to look." That won't even get you in the door. On the other hand, if you have a genuine interest in the material culture (objects) of the fur trade, the curator should be more than happy to show you around. Show that you are really interested in the subject and have a deep reverence (respect) for the material culture. We do really enjoy that, as long as you have a genuine interest, and can follow rules. The two biggies are 1. no touching without permission, and 2. don't go anywhere in the collection without staff escort. Curators might allow you to touch, but for most things white cotton or clear vinyl gloves are standard issue. Follow the rules, and you'll find there's nothing we like more than visitors with similar interests who can talk shop. It helps to pass the day, and usually helps us in our understanding of the period as well. The buzzword we use is "resource sharing." For more on this, see *BoBS vol. IV, p. 213, and BoBS vol V, p. 151. Have a good time. Cheers, HBC *Book of Buckskinning ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ********** Opening Day, March 31!!! ********** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kat <kat@janrix.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 10 Mar 1998 07:20:10 -0500 There is also the Missouri Historical Society Library and Research Center on Skinker in downtown St. Louis. They have some pretty strict rules, but wonderful resources. begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(A\,`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`Z $```$````0`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````5P`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&AI<W1?=&5X=$!L:7-T<RYX;6ES<VEO M;BYC;VT`4TU44 !H:7-T7W1E>'1 ;&ES=',N>&UI<W-I;VXN8V]M```>``(P M`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````'0```&AI<W1?=&5X=$!L:7-T<RYX M;6ES<VEO;BYC;VT``````P`5# $````#`/X/!@```!X``3 !````'P```"=H M:7-T7W1E>'1 ;&ES=',N>&UI<W-I;VXN8V]M)P```@$+, $````B````4TU4 M4#I(25-47U1%6%1 3$E35%,N6$U)4U-)3TXN0T]-`````P``.0`````+`$ Z M`0```!X`]E\!````'0```&AI<W1?=&5X=$!L:7-T<RYX;6ES<VEO;BYC;VT` M`````@'W7P$```!7`````````($K'Z2^HQ 9G6X`W0$/5 (`````:&ES=%]T M97AT0&QI<W1S+GAM:7-S:6]N+F-O;0!33510`&AI<W1?=&5X=$!L:7-T<RYX M;6ES<VEO;BYC;VT```,`_5\!`````P#_7P`````"`?8/`0````0````````" MH70!!( !`!P```!213H@371-86XM3&ES=#H@075G=7-T('1R:7 `20D!!8 # M``X```#.!P,`"@`'`!0`"@`"``D!`2" `P`.````S@<#``H`!P`2`#D``@`V M`0$)@ $`(0```$(U1$(T,D9",4,T0T)$,3$X,3DX-C(T,30V-C-".3 V`!D' M`0.0!@`L! ``(0````L``@`!````"P`C```````#`"8```````L`*0`````` M`P`N```````#`#8``````$ `.0" ?8'>'DR]`1X`< `!````' ```%)%.B!- M=$UA;BU,:7-T.B!!=6=U<W0@=')I< `"`7$``0```!8````!O4P>WH%0!C1" MM^81T;89PC0EPTH\```>`!X,`0````4```!33510`````!X`'PP!````#P`` M`&MA=$!J86YR:7@N8V]M```#``80R+F4K ,`!Q",````'@`($ $```!E```` M5$A%4D5)4T%,4T]42$5-25-33U5224A)4U1/4DE#04Q33T-)15193$E"4D%2 M64%.1%)%4T5!4D-(0T5.5$523TY32TE.2T5224Y$3U=.5$]73E-43$]525-4 M2$592$%615-/30`````"`0D0`0```!0!```0`0``1@$``$Q:1G6B5+^.=P`* M`0,!]R "I /C`@!C@F@*P'-E=# @!Q--`H!]"H (R" ["6\RS#4U`H *@75C M`% +`P9C`$$+8&YG,3 S(C,+IB!4: 2092"%! `@!T!S;R!T%."G!= $`0AB M($@$`'0%L$QI8P= !@!O8PB0=,!Y($QI8G(*P!>0;0!P9 ?P!Y!E"L /<"!J M0PGP= 20( (@!@!K#0N :QE!"X @9&]WYP(P&F$&`'0N%Z (8 0`[QL`%-$7 MD ^ =A40%8 '@/P@< EP`D 7D!:@%M$%0 AR=6P'D"P@8G7M!4!W`B $@68= M<!U0!Y#]"&%C!Y ;``JB"H0*@1. +0O#-!]D$'$`(5 #`! 0``````,`$1 ! M`````P" $/____] ``<P0-Y*LQY,O0% ``@P0-Y*LQY,O0$+``" "" &```` M``# ````````1@`````#A0````````,``H (( 8``````, ```````!&```` M`!"%`````````P`%@ @@!@``````P ```````$8`````4H4``+<-```>`"6 M"" &``````# ````````1@````!4A0```0````0````X+C ``P`F@ @@!@`` M````P ```````$8``````84````````+`"^ "" &``````# ````````1@`` M```.A0````````,`,( (( 8``````, ```````!&`````!&%`````````P`R M@ @@!@``````P ```````$8`````&(4````````>`$& "" &``````# ```` M````1@`````VA0```0````$`````````'@!"@ @@!@``````P ```````$8` M````-X4```$````!`````````!X`0X (( 8``````, ```````!&`````#B% L```!`````0`````````>`#T``0````4```!213H@``````,`#33]-P``0KR% ` end ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Schaaf Dick <Schaaf_Dick@prc.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 10 Mar 1998 07:43:57 -0500 I've got to say that one nice aspect of the Gateway Museum is the bookstore they have there. If you're in the area anyway, it's really worthwhile to scan what is available. They do have a pretty good booklist too. But they actually charge you for it! Still, it's worthwhile. Dick > ---------- > From: LODGEPOLE[SMTP:LODGEPOLE@aol.com] > Reply To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Sent: Monday, March 09, 1998 6:39 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: August trip > > In a message dated 98-03-08 17:47:30 EST, you write: > > << And in St. Louis, the Gateway Museum is relatively school-childish, > but > has some good stuff. >> > Just pass on that and go to the Museum of History. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sean@naplesnet.com (Addison O. Miller) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 10 Mar 1998 11:20:53 -0500 I am getting a STACK of printed stuff, and my route for the trip is starting to look like a free trapper comin back from the traders tent with a pot full o' spirits... <grin> Been to St Louis Gateway Museum several years ago, and loved it. Want to go again. Concentrating this time on ND, SD, Nebraska, and whats there. Definately going to Musueum of the Fur Trade, Mt. Rushmore <wifes idea>, the Platte River where they split N and S... etc... Want some time by myself just to sit and reflect on the past and meditate. Sure wish the stones and the river could talk... My gods, the stories they could tell!! Since they can't, looks like we have to do it for them by keeping the traditions alive, and passing on the information. Off the subject, but I am reading a great book... "Lies My Teacher Told Me". I'll post the full infor later... book at home... I am at the office. It shows how history has been re-written to be politically correct, and is no where NEAR whatI was taught in school 35 years ago. Kinda makes ya wanna puke its so fanarkey now. I wonder how many times that was done even before I was in school... Anyway, thank you all SO much for the responses. And please, don't stop just because I said thank you.. <grin> Wantto see as much as I can in the 2 weeks I will be out there... Addison Miller aka SeanBear PS: Anyone at the NMLRA SE Ronny in Tallahassee in April, please look us up. Look for the tent with the sign "Mouse's House" in front of it... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 10 Mar 1998 12:50:09 -0600 (CST) >I am getting a STACK of printed stuff, and my route for the trip is starting >to look like a free trapper comin back from the traders tent with a pot full >o' spirits... <grin> Been to St Louis Gateway Museum several years ago, and >loved it. Want to go again. Concentrating this time on ND, SD, Nebraska, >and whats there. Definately going to Musueum of the Fur Trade, Mt. Rushmore ><wifes idea>, the Platte River where they split N and S... etc... Get Greg Franzwa's _Oregon Trail Revisited_ and the companion _Maps of the Oregon Trail_ to take with you. The trailside gravesites are particularly poingnant. The desolation and emensity of the land in places are quite extraordinary. Happy trails, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ********** Opening Day, March 31!!! ********** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 10 Mar 1998 13:52:24 -0600 Maybe someone can confirm or deny something I heard long ago. Rumor has it that the last existing, genuine, Fur Trade Warehouse in the world was torn down to build the Gateway arch. True or no? John.. P.S. To visit Mt. Rushmore approach from the South. A more scenic & pleasant drive than crawling through the carnival snake charmers lining the highway out of Rapid City. John T. Kramer, maker of: Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< - >>>As good as old!<<< http://www.kramerize.com/ mail to: john<kramer@kramerize.com> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: St Louis warehouse district (August trip) Date: 10 Mar 1998 16:33:39 -0600 (CST) >Maybe someone can confirm or deny something I heard long ago. > >Rumor has it that the last existing, genuine, Fur Trade Warehouse in the >world was torn down to build the Gateway arch. I think the story goes that the warehouse district along the riverfront was torn down and replaced with the park, arch and museum. Also, that the look of the warehouse dist. had changed so dramatically by then that it bore little resemblance to that of fur trade days, and many of the buildings had become firetraps. That's the story I get. HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ********** Opening Day, March 31!!! ********** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand <Traphand@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 10 Mar 1998 19:25:02 EST if i an not mistaken it sat on the park grounds.do you need exact loc.of this .warehouse.but i could find out.is this your first trip to st.louis.outside of st.louis we also have a cave called traven bluff are traven cave were lewis and clark stopped.its about a mile and half walk up some railroad tracks to the cave. if you would like more infor about it let me know. traphand ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sack hats/Animal Efigy Hunting Hoods Date: 11 Mar 1998 12:30:47 -0700 Dear Sack Hats, (as Dear Abbey might respond) If you interpret the "sack hat" just from the paintings of Alfred Jacob Miller you are basing your interpretation on one of the tree's branches and ignoring the roots. If you examine the roots, you can gain an understanding even deeper than that of artist Miller and gain a greater appreciation of what he was painting. Studying just the one branch of the tree you'll create a good picture of the entire tree. What are more generally referred to as, "animal efigy" hunting hoods, were common among the Indian tribes of northeast and great lakes as cold-weather hunting headgear. They were sketched by other artists besides Miller and some examples exist in museum collections in the northeast. Before woolen tradecloth and blankets were commonly available the Indians made them of dressed skins(and probably hides and furs). Though we often tend to forget or ignore it, many of the mountain men in the western fur trade had either blood connections or connections by marriage to tribes in the northeast. The Iroquois and the Ojibwa are probably the two tribes best documented as contributing blood and labor to the western fur trade. By 1800 there were already Christian Iroquois and mixed-blood hunters working for the Northwest Fur Company in the Rocky Mountains, and even though many of them came from Christian families in Lower Canada many also still clung to much of their traditional tribal culture. Remember that when the Hudson Bay Compay purchased the Northwest Fur Company they got most of the NWC's employees in the deal. Then when Ashley's men offered them more lucrative employment during their clash on the Weber River, many of the Iroquois and mixed bloods became employees of the St. Louis based company. Which is all to say, that it really wasn't all that far from Northest to the Rocky Mountains. This link is important to appreciate in understanding that there was a whole lot more to these funny-eared hats than Alfred Jacob MIller ever knew. Anthropologists studying the tribes that commonly wore the animal effigy hunting hoods suggest that like all of the other animal efigy Indian artifacts, they had religeous significance and were not just a type of primative camo to wear while crawling up on buffalo. Animals were a very important part of Indian religion and some animals had greater significance than others, depending on the particular culture. In the Northeast, hunting hoods have been documented as representing wolves, bears, and even owls. While anthropologists have documented a religeous connection, they have also generally conceded that we have lost our opportunity to fully understand the religious meaning of the all the various animal efigies created as parts of clothing, tools, pipes, etc.. Some of the insights we gain from studying the roots of these weird hats and depiction of the hunting hoods by other artists in addition to Miller are: the hats were primarily designed for cold-weather hunting; they were often made to be snug fitting and form to the head; they often tied under the chin; the hunting hoods were sewn of more kinds of material than just wool blanketing; there was a lot of variety in the hoods form and appearence; more than just one kind of animal is represented by the efigies; and last -- while we don't fully understand them -- we know that there was a lot more behind the origens of the hunting hoods than Miller recorded. Still hungry for more? Frank Waters, in his book, "The Man Who Killed the Deer," offers some good insight into how Indian religion and hunting practices interconnected. The book is centered on a Southwestern tribe but really helps to give you an Indian perspecive on hunting and animals. Dave T. -----Original Message----- >John Richey wrote: > >> Wes Housler had a nice period piece at the RMNR last year in Montana. >> It was a cap made from a scrap of wool, essentially a bag with exagerated >> corners (to resemble ears) with one side cut out for his face. There are >> many examples in Alfred Jacob Millers artwork of this type of headgear. . . . > If anybody would like to shed light on >> the origins of the "sacks", I would be glad to hear it. > >In Miller's notes for "Approaching the Buffalo" he writes: > >"The Hunters form for themselves a peculiar kind of cap, - it has two >ears with a flap reaching the shoulders. - This is worn with a double >object in view, - one of which is to deceive the buffalo in approaching; >- under such guise the Hunter is mistaken by the animal for a wolf, & is >suffered to advance quite near. - The mop of hair covering the fore-head >of teh Buffalo obscures his sight & aids the trapper in his deception." > >(Editorializing and opinion starts here) In spite of being such a >well-documented type of headgear, I have never seen one at any >rendezvous I have ever attended. But you see plenty of animal-skin with >head headdresses, which might be difficult to document. Sounds like the >wolf-ear cap is an excellent candidate for a very worthwhile project. > >Iron Burner > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Carlson Wagonlit Travel <travel@turbonet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: new rifle Date: 11 Mar 1998 09:33:51 List, I want to use your knowledge. I am looking at building a new rifle. What does history tell us the mountain man carried with him during the Fur Trade in the Pacific Northwest Rocky Mountain area. I really want to build a flinter. Can anyone help? Matt Mitchell Palouse Hills Muzzleloaders Moscow, Idaho travel@turbonet.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capote oxymorons Date: 11 Mar 1998 13:58:06 -0700 Dear Detached, Saying a capote didn't have a hood is roughly the equivalent of saying a horse didn't have a tail, because by definition you can't have one without the other. Capote is a French word that by definition means "with a hood." The French word first started popping up in fur trade records written by French fur traders describing the hooded skin garments worn by Indians of the subarctic region of Canada, way back when French was the dominant language of the fur trade. If you look at many of the primary sources of information about trade goods for the Rocky Mountains, you'll see references to big overcoats made out of wool blankets -- in which the American and British traders didn't use the French word "capote" to describe the coats. There were not then, and there are not now, capotes without hoods -- but there were then, and can be now, big wool blanket overcoats. Also, let me suggest that a capote, by definition is not necessarily a coat make from from a wool blanket. It's the subcultural habits and colloquial vocabulary of modern-day buckskinnerss that is creating a misconception that capotes are blanket coats. Capotes can be made from blankets, but don't have to be made from blankets. However, if they are a capote they do have to have a hood. The hood could be detachable, but when it's detached you don't have a capote. It's much like a stallion; by definition the stallion has testicles, and once they are detached you no longer have a stallion -- you have a gelding -- not a stallion with detachable testicles. To take this strain of thought a step further, mountain men weren't beaver trappers with detachable capotes. You don't by definition have to have a copote if you are a mountain man, but you do by definition have to have testicles. So if a modern mountain man is inclined to prefer a large overcoat with no hood, let him have the courage to defy the modern cultural norms of behavior and venture forth to rendezvous capoteless. Hope this really clears things up. Dave T. -----Original Message----- Cc: Mstar176@wf.net <Mstar176@wf.net> >Longtrail, > Nice link for reproduction fabrics. Patchworks, is going on my >favorite list. I was particularly intrested in the indigo material. > Wes Housler had a nice period piece at the RMNR last year in Montana. >It was a cap made from a scrap of wool, essentially a bag with exagerated >corners (to resemble ears) with one side cut out for his face. There are >many examples in Alfred Jacob Millers artwork of this type of headgear. The >one that comes to mind, is the oil painting of the "Trappers Bride". Two >of the trappers in the background are wearing "sacks". It seems to me, >that if you didn't have a hat, that one of these simple creations would be >a good substitute. Miller also shows hunters using them to approach game, >on all-fours, as camoflodge. In the AJM painting titled "Trappers and >horses around a fire" used as an illustration in Ruxtons "Life In The Far >West"(edited by Hafen) is a trapper wearing a "sack" made with a checked or >crossed, striped pattern. Since the bags were made out of anything that >was available (my opinion) then a piece if the woven Indigo from patchworks >might be a nice piece of material for a reproduction of that trappers "Sky >Piece". > I believe Paul Mueller said in a recent link, that hoods were not >attached to capotes, rather were buttoned or tied on. Am I wrong about the >"sacks" or were they hoods for Capotes? Miller's paintings have few, if >any capotes, but it was summertime. If anybody would like to shed light on >the origins of the "sacks", I would be glad to hear it. > >John Richey >"Yellow Stone" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> Subject: MtMan-List: Traps Date: 11 Mar 1998 14:58:27 -0800 (PST) Hallo A while back Dave Parks was a talking about a company called Montgomery Fur Co., they sell traps, etc. Was a wondering Dave, have you used their #4 double long springs? Are they a decent trap? I've got a catalog of theirs coming in preparation for this next season, and was curious. At the shop I visited yesterday, Moscow Hide and Fur (URL on my page), they had several used Newhouses for sale in the 4-4 1/2 size....2 of them were listed for $17.50, three for $100+, and one for over $200. I believe the $99 and up ones have "crossed over" from usable to collectable. I'm thinking the more inexpensive Newhouses are a good buy? They also have 5 #4 Triumphs with good springs for $10 apiece, has anyone heard of this company? How close in size, shape and wieght are the Newhouses and Triumphs in relations to traps of the 1800's? Last question, you've said in previous posts to the list, that you use a piece of wood to set the traps on, have you ever used the U-stick method? Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fred Yoder <fyoder@mesa5.mesa.colorado.edu> Subject: MtMan-List: Char Date: 12 Mar 1998 00:09:00 -0700 I've had really good success making char-cloth from 100% cotton turkish toweling. Same technique, but the texture allows it to really catch a spark and it burns good and long since the cloth is so thick... In a non-period situation, 000 or 0000 steel wool works even better than char and will also work as a distress or signal beacon. Hook a wad of it to a piece of cord, stand in a clear (minimize risk of wild-fire) area, spark it and swing it in a vertical circle. Makes a "ring-of-fire"effect that can be seen much further off than you'd think, and its pretty distinctive. -- Fred Yoder Grand Junction, Colorado mailto:fyoder@mesa5.mesa.colorado.edu ICQ UIN: 2737053 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Parks <kc7cnw@magick.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver Traps Date: 12 Mar 1998 01:05:51 -0800 Howdy Lee, Glad you got to visit Moscow Hide & Fur, I hope you got to talk with Gary Schroeder the owner. He's a really knowledgeable guy. I've had the pleasure of meeting him at some of the fur sales. He writes the "Fur Markets" department for Fur, Fish & Game Magazine. As to your questions, I certainly think that #4 Newhouses in decent condition for $17.50 are a good buy. The #4 1/2 you mention at a much higher figure were what Newhouse called their "Wolf Trap". It came with six feet of heavy chain with a heavy swivel at the trap, another one halfway down the chain and a heavy two prong steel drag on the end of the chain. They tend to bring high dollars today, even for being a commonly used trap up until 30 years ago. I have one left in my collection. The Triumphs have not been made for many years and are a good quality trap. At $10.00 each, I suggest you don't pass them up. As I remember, Triumphs traps go back into the mid-twenties or early 1930's. The man to ask in detail about these and any antique trap is my old friend Bill Foreyt, Route 2 Box 56, Colfax, WA. (509) 397-3351, Bill is a great guy and has an extensive collection of traps. Just a few years ago, he told me that original fur trade era beaver traps were scarce in any condition and a rough one would bring $150.00 and up......if you could get one of the trap collectors to part with one. He's still looking for one for me. About 12 years ago I sold him one of the rarest traps in his collection.....but that's another story. As far as your question of "How close in size, shape and weight are the Newhouses and Triumphs in relation to traps of the 1800's?" A close look at trap "D", figure 26 on page 121 of Carl P. Russell's book "Firearms, Traps & Tools of the Mountain Men" (fifth printing, University of New Mexico Press, 1983 Lib. of Congress Cat. Card # 77-81984) will show you just how close the Newhouse is to the originals. Even if you found an original beaver trap of the 1820's on the banks of Horse Creek in Wyoming.....it would be representive of that particular trap maker and not all of the beaver traps used during this period. Individual blacksmiths made traps that were of a design they had grown up with and knew or a design they had seen by another blacksmith and prefered to use. The common thread that pretty much keeps this period beaver size traps the same, is the use of the "jaw post" that held the trap jaws. The ends of the jaws were pinned and hinged on these posts. This design goes back to England and Europe. As for the weight of fur period traps, they varied from 2 to 5 lbs. The base of trap "C" on pg. 121 of Russell's book is very strange compared to others. It has a double base rarely seen in these type of traps. Stranger yet, it was found in 1903 at an Indians grave here on the Rogue River (near me) in S/W Oregon. It's weight is only 2 1/2 lbs, even with a double base! The piece of wood you mentioned, is a piece of 1/2"X10"X10" plywood that I carry to set coilspring traps with. The U-Stick you mention is, I assume the pair of sticks tied together at one end with leather strap and is used to "pinch" or depress the traps longsprings for ease of setting the big traps. I have never bothered with them, first of all, it would take two sets of them to set both springs unless you made a device to hold one spring depressed while you depressed the other spring. Bear traps came with big "C" clamps that were made to set these huge traps. It was also the LAW that when setting a bear trap, you were required to wire the c-clamps to the trap...incase a man stepped into it. At least he would have the means to get his fractured leg out of the trap! How he would walk back home is questionable? I set my #4 longsprings by breaking them over my knee in a quick downward thrust. While holding the springs depressed, I flip the dog over the jaw and slip it into the notch in the pan with my thumbs. It's easy to do after a little practice. Lee, another good deal is to look into some of the Bridger #5's. They have a 7 1/2" jaw spread and are as tough as nails.They are available from: R-P Outdoors 505 Polk St. /P.O. Box 1170 Mansfield, LA. 71052 1-800-762-2706 They offer the Bridger #5 for $22.99 each, which is about the going rate for them. Let me know how you do on your selection. I'm glad to help anytime I can. Regards, _M_ Manywounds W ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mstar176@wf.net (Basha Richey) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capote oxymorons Date: 12 Mar 1998 09:58:09 +0100 Dave T, Thanks for exposing the roots, that was just exactly the type of info I was looking for. If anyone cares to contribute more, we will boil 'em down an make a tea. I appreciate the precise definition of the french origin of the name of the hooded garments. I'll admit the type of french that I commonly use out in the country in these southern lattitudes is the kind that my wife is quick to point out that she doesn't care to hear. I keep telling here that it is my naval training, she keeps pointing out that as Capt. Stewart remarked of his employee Mr. Miller that my "early training...has been faulty"! As far as the capote oxymoron, it gets worse than that. My first mistake, I added that unecessary remark about he capotes from my faulty memory. When I got out my book and looked at the painting "The Trappers Bride" the groom is wearing, you got it, a Hooded Garment! Next time I'll get the book, and look, before opening my mouth. Best Regards. Your Humble Servant, Yellow Stone ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gary Bell <micropt@gte.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Capotes, hoods & etc. Date: 12 Mar 1998 10:39:50 -0800 --------------53F7894D5AB28CD722576C56 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Basha Richey wrote: > Dave T, > Thanks for exposing the roots, that was just exactly the > type of > info I was looking for. If anyone cares to contribute more, we > will boil > 'em down an make a tea. > I appreciate the precise definition of the french origin > of the name > of the hooded garments. <snip out some stuff> I feel a little awkward quoting latin in the mountain man camp. My dictionary also traces the term capote back to the French, but clearly the root word for a whole host of terms, from capital to cap to kaput is the Latin capitalis. I wonder if there is an even older Greek term that is similar! Anyway, I see a continuous tradition of hooded military and civilian capes and coats preceding the nineteenth century. Detaching the hood seems a logical extension of that long tradition, although I doubt that all hats derive from this root alone. All this speaks of the white's tradition, which we as reenacters in the fur trade mountain man era honor in our capotes, and apparently now in bag style hats as well. I would love to see an extended discussion of the Native American traditions in this regard, extending the animal effigy and hunting techniques remarks Dave T. and Basha R. recently shared. As a humble offering along these lines I would cite an 1833 painting by Bodmer of an Assiniboin hunter named Pasesick-Kaskutau wearing his winter hunting outfit, featuring a rectangular pelt (coyote or badger are my guesses), stitched down the back to make a very serviceable head cover much resembling a pointed hood, with lower corners of the pelt reaching his shoulders, and a black tipped tail attached near the bottom of the back seam. It looks warm and dry, and may well obscure the hunter's profile. No other Bodmer paintings in the wonderful book _People of the First Man_, (edited by Thomas and Ronnefeldt), show northern plains Native American headgear that relate to capes or hoods -- virtually all of their headgear seems plaited into the hair for decorative purposes. One can only suppose that in winter they hunkered down into their buffalo robes or blankets to keep their heads warm. As a partisan of the real Northwest (upper left hand wet zone) I am somewhat familiar with the local Native traditions of generally huge conical woven hats, and appreciated the recent references to them having once made it into Ft. Hall country ( I believe) as a trade item. They do not seem to be related to coats or capes except that many coastal people used grass rain capes with these hats, and they shared similar materials. So, does that leave us mountain man wannabees with the Miller illustrated eared hoods? Does anybody in camp recall finding capote hoods decorated with fur? Gary (no mountain name yet) Bell --------------53F7894D5AB28CD722576C56 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML> Basha Richey wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Dave T, Thanks for exposing the roots, that was just exactly the type of info I was looking for. If anyone cares to contribute more, we will boil 'em down an make a tea. I appreciate the precise definition of the french origin of the name of the hooded garments.</BLOCKQUOTE> <snip out some stuff> I feel a little awkward quoting latin in the mountain man camp. My dictionary also traces the term capote back to the French, but clearly the root word for a whole host of terms, from capital to cap to kaput is the Latin capitalis. I wonder if there is an even older Greek term that is similar! Anyway, I see a continuous tradition of hooded military and civilian capes and coats preceding the nineteenth century. Detaching the hood seems a logical extension of that long tradition, although I doubt that all hats derive from this root alone. All this speaks of the white's tradition, which we as reenacters in the fur trade mountain man era honor in our capotes, and apparently now in bag style hats as well. I would love to see an extended discussion of the Native American traditions in this regard, extending the animal effigy and hunting techniques remarks Dave T. and Basha R. recently shared. As a humble offering along these lines I would cite an 1833 painting by Bodmer of an Assiniboin hunter named Pasesick-Kaskutau wearing his winter hunting outfit, featuring a rectangular pelt (coyote or badger are my guesses), stitched down the back to make a very serviceable head cover much resembling a pointed hood, with lower corners of the pelt reaching his shoulders, and a black tipped tail attached near the bottom of the back seam. It looks warm and dry, and may well obscure the hunter's profile. No other Bodmer paintings in the wonderful book _People of the First Man_, (edited by Thomas and Ronnefeldt), show northern plains Native American headgear that relate to capes or hoods -- virtually all of their headgear seems plaited into the hair for decorative purposes. One can only suppose that in winter they hunkered down into their buffalo robes or blankets to keep their heads warm. As a partisan of the real Northwest (upper left hand wet zone) I am somewhat familiar with the local Native traditions of generally huge conical woven hats, and appreciated the recent references to them having once made it into Ft. Hall country ( I believe) as a trade item. They do not seem to be related to coats or capes except that many coastal people used grass rain capes with these hats, and they shared similar materials. So, does that leave us mountain man wannabees with the Miller illustrated eared hoods? Does anybody in camp recall finding capote hoods decorated with fur? Gary (no mountain name yet) Bell </HTML> --------------53F7894D5AB28CD722576C56-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver Traps Date: 12 Mar 1998 10:59:33 -0800 (PST) On Thu, 12 Mar 1998, Dave Parks wrote: <snip>As far as your question of "How close in size, shape and weight > are the Newhouses and Triumphs in relation to traps of the 1800's?" A > close look at trap "D", figure 26 on page 121 of Carl P. Russell's book > "Firearms, Traps & Tools of the Mountain Men"<snip> Thanks Dave! I'm still waiting for me personal copy of CP Russell's book to arrive, ordered it last week. Think I'll snap up those Triumphs and look hard at the Newhouses. Who'd a thought traps would someday be a collector's item. I can remember when I was a boy in the sixties, wandering through my Grandpa's and Uncle's barns in NE Washington, playing with piles of 'em. Traps that have been long ago sold off as scrap and junk. If I'd of only known then, what trails I would be wandering on now..... Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg <jal@cray.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capote oxymorons Date: 12 Mar 1998 09:40:47 -0600 Speaking of capotes and hooded garments, one of our Voyageur members just returned from visiting family in France. She reported that capote is slang for prophylactic. The proper word being closer to "preservative". Her husband using his best french informed the family that the reason french bread tasted so much better in France was because they didn't use "preservatives" to which everyone just starred at him! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes, hoods & etc. Date: 12 Mar 1998 15:53:25 -0600 (CST) >Basha Richey wrote: > >> Dave T, >> Thanks for exposing the roots, that was just exactly the >> type of >> info I was looking for. If anyone cares to contribute more, we >> will boil >> 'em down an make a tea. >> I appreciate the precise definition of the french origin >> of the name >> of the hooded garments. > ><snip out some stuff> >I feel a little awkward quoting latin in the mountain man camp. >My dictionary also traces the term capote back to the French, but >clearly the root word for a whole host of terms, from capital to >cap to kaput is the Latin capitalis. I wonder if there is an >even older Greek term that is similar! Anyway, I see a >continuous tradition of hooded military and civilian capes and >coats preceding the nineteenth century. Just to throw more hardware into the works, the Spanish term capote, with the accent on th last syllable, translates as "cape." Three years ago, I wrote the history of a log cabin here at the Museum that was moved from Guadalupe County, Texas. The structure is officially called the El Capote Cabin. It came from a stock farm of the same name, so named because of the cape-like land formations located near the farm. The formations were named way back during the Spanish period, pre 1821. It does not surprise me that the French, Latin, and Spanish terms are identical except for slight differences in pronounciation. My two pesos. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ********** Opening Day, March 31!!! ********** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paul mueller <pmueller@infinet.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capote oxymorons Date: 12 Mar 1998 17:40:36 -0500 David Tippets wrote: > > Dear Detached, > > Saying a capote didn't have a hood is roughly the equivalent of saying a > horse didn't have a tail, because by definition you can't have one without > the other. > > Capote is a French word that by definition means "with a hood." The French > word first started popping up in fur trade records written by French fur > traders describing the hooded skin garments worn by Indians of the subarctic > region of Canada, way back when French was the dominant language of the fur > trade. > > If you look at many of the primary sources of information about trade goods > for the Rocky Mountains, you'll see references to big overcoats made out of > wool blankets -- in which the American and British traders didn't use the > French word "capote" to describe the coats. There were not then, and there > are not now, capotes without hoods -- but there were then, and can be now, > big wool blanket overcoats. > > Also, let me suggest that a capote, by definition is not necessarily a coat > make from from a wool blanket. It's the subcultural habits and colloquial > vocabulary of modern-day buckskinnerss that is creating a misconception that > capotes are blanket coats. > > Capotes can be made from blankets, but don't have to be made from blankets. > However, if they are a capote they do have to have a hood. The hood could > be detachable, but when it's detached you don't have a capote. It's much > like a stallion; by definition the stallion has testicles, and once they are > detached you no longer have a stallion -- you have a gelding -- not a > stallion with detachable testicles. > > To take this strain of thought a step further, mountain men weren't beaver > trappers with detachable capotes. You don't by definition have to have a > copote if you are a mountain man, but you do by definition have to have > testicles. So if a modern mountain man is inclined to prefer a large > overcoat with no hood, let him have the courage to defy the modern cultural > norms of behavior and venture forth to rendezvous capoteless. > > Hope this really clears things up. > > Dave T. > -----Original Message----- > From: Basha Richey <mstar176@wf.net> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > Cc: Mstar176@wf.net <Mstar176@wf.net> > Date: Monday, March 09, 1998 4:48 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Sack hats > > >Longtrail, > > Nice link for reproduction fabrics. Patchworks, is going on my > >favorite list. I was particularly intrested in the indigo material. > > Wes Housler had a nice period piece at the RMNR last year in Montana. > >It was a cap made from a scrap of wool, essentially a bag with exagerated > >corners (to resemble ears) with one side cut out for his face. There are > >many examples in Alfred Jacob Millers artwork of this type of headgear. The > >one that comes to mind, is the oil painting of the "Trappers Bride". Two > >of the trappers in the background are wearing "sacks". It seems to me, > >that if you didn't have a hat, that one of these simple creations would be > >a good substitute. Miller also shows hunters using them to approach game, > >on all-fours, as camoflodge. In the AJM painting titled "Trappers and > >horses around a fire" used as an illustration in Ruxtons "Life In The Far > >West"(edited by Hafen) is a trapper wearing a "sack" made with a checked or > >crossed, striped pattern. Since the bags were made out of anything that > >was available (my opinion) then a piece if the woven Indigo from patchworks > >might be a nice piece of material for a reproduction of that trappers "Sky > >Piece". > > I believe Paul Mueller said in a recent link, that hoods were not > >attached to capotes, rather were buttoned or tied on. Am I wrong about the > >"sacks" or were they hoods for Capotes? Miller's paintings have few, if > >any capotes, but it was summertime. If anybody would like to shed light on > >the origins of the "sacks", I would be glad to hear it. > > > >John Richey > >"Yellow Stone" > > > > a little piece about capotes or capots by francis back titled THE CANADIAN CAPOT (CAPOTE) In 1803 a french traveller provided an apologetic but accurate descrition of the blanket capot "all the inhabitants... and their slaves have capots for winter time. this capote is made of a single blanket and is loose enough to look like our greatcoat: their is no seem on the back;they have simply cut on the blankets length enough cloth to make the sleeves, the collar or the hood: around the skirt is a blue stripe,and at the extremity of the sleeves is another blue stripe placed there to look like a cuff.The negroes instead of having a collar have a hood as those of our charteux or trappist monks... the masters capots differ because they are a little bit fuller ,made of a finer cloth and without hoods. this came from a french man in 1803 a capot without a hood but a collar. they used the word wrong then as we do today. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver Traps Date: 12 Mar 1998 17:26:04 -0700 Terry Montgomery, owner and operator of Montgomery Fur here in Ogden, Utah is the manufacturer of the Bridger trap line, including the Bridger #5 that you refer to. Some of us here in the area who trap beaver mountain man style have been talking to Terry about making some optional modifications to the Bridger #5 to make it look a little more like the Hudson Bay Company beaver traps and the old Newhouse traps. Terry could custom make them now, but the price would wind up almost as much as the cost of contemporary hand-forged traps. To keep the cost within reason for mountain men who want to by a half dozen to actually go trap beaver with, we'll probably have to compromise a one design point -- the jaw posts. Other than that, we can probably just switch some components and have trap that look pretty close to the Hudson Bay Company traps. You can make most of the modifications yourself, if you have a mind to. Dave Tippets -----Original Message----- >Howdy Lee, > > Glad you got to visit Moscow Hide & Fur, I hope you got to talk >with Gary Schroeder the owner. He's a really knowledgeable guy. I've had >the pleasure of meeting him at some of the fur sales. He writes the "Fur >Markets" department for Fur, Fish & Game Magazine. > As to your questions, I certainly think that #4 Newhouses in >decent condition for $17.50 are a good buy. The #4 1/2 you mention at a >much higher figure were what Newhouse called their "Wolf Trap". It came >with six feet of heavy chain with a heavy swivel at the trap, another >one halfway down the chain and a heavy two prong steel drag on the end >of the chain. They tend to bring high dollars today, even for being a >commonly used trap up until 30 years ago. I have one left in my >collection. > The Triumphs have not been made for many years and are a good >quality trap. At $10.00 each, I suggest you don't pass them up. As I >remember, Triumphs traps go back into the mid-twenties or early 1930's. >The man to ask in detail about these and any antique trap is my old >friend Bill Foreyt, Route 2 Box 56, Colfax, WA. (509) 397-3351, Bill is >a great guy and has an extensive collection of traps. Just a few years >ago, he told me that original fur trade era beaver traps were scarce in >any condition and a rough one would bring $150.00 and up......if you >could get one of the trap collectors to part with one. He's still >looking for one for me. About 12 years ago I sold him one of the rarest >traps in his collection.....but that's another story. > As far as your question of "How close in size, shape and weight >are the Newhouses and Triumphs in relation to traps of the 1800's?" A >close look at trap "D", figure 26 on page 121 of Carl P. Russell's book >"Firearms, Traps & Tools of the Mountain Men" (fifth printing, >University of New Mexico Press, 1983 Lib. of Congress Cat. Card # >77-81984) will show you just how close the Newhouse is to the originals. >Even if you found an original beaver trap of the 1820's on the banks of >Horse Creek in Wyoming.....it would be representive of that particular >trap maker and not all of the beaver traps used during this period. >Individual blacksmiths made traps that were of a design they had grown >up with and knew or a design they had seen by another blacksmith and >prefered to use. > The common thread that pretty much keeps this period beaver size >traps the same, is the use of the "jaw post" that held the trap jaws. >The ends of the jaws were pinned and hinged on these posts. This design >goes back to England and Europe. As for the weight of fur period traps, >they varied from 2 to 5 lbs. The base of trap "C" on pg. 121 of >Russell's book is very strange compared to others. It has a double base >rarely seen in these type of traps. Stranger yet, it was found in 1903 >at an Indians grave here on the Rogue River (near me) in S/W Oregon. >It's weight is only 2 1/2 lbs, even with a double base! > The piece of wood you mentioned, is a piece of 1/2"X10"X10" >plywood that I carry to set coilspring traps with. The U-Stick you >mention is, I assume the pair of sticks tied together at one end with >leather strap and is used to "pinch" or depress the traps longsprings >for ease of setting the big traps. I have never bothered with them, >first of all, it would take two sets of them to set both springs unless >you made a device to hold one spring depressed while you depressed the >other spring. Bear traps came with big "C" clamps that were made to set >these huge traps. It was also the LAW that when setting a bear trap, you >were required to wire the c-clamps to the trap...incase a man stepped >into it. At least he would have the means to get his fractured leg out >of the trap! How he would walk back home is questionable? I set my #4 >longsprings by breaking them over my knee in a quick downward thrust. >While holding the springs depressed, I flip the dog over the jaw and >slip it into the notch in the pan with my thumbs. It's easy to do after >a little practice. > Lee, another good deal is to look into some of the Bridger #5's. >They have a 7 1/2" jaw spread and are as tough as nails.They are >available from: R-P Outdoors > 505 Polk St. /P.O. Box 1170 > Mansfield, LA. 71052 > 1-800-762-2706 > > They offer the Bridger #5 for $22.99 each, which is about the >going >rate for them. Let me know how you do on your selection. I'm glad to >help anytime I can. > Regards, _M_ Manywounds > W > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver Traps Date: 12 Mar 1998 17:55:07 -0800 (PST) Good Day, Manywounds did spaketh; > As to your questions, I certainly think that #4 Newhouses in > decent condition for $17.50 are a good buy. > The Triumphs have not been made for many years and are a good > quality trap. At $10.00 each, I suggest you don't pass them up. In this business, if you snooze, you loose. Tragically, from the time I sent the email out, until Dave replied, Moscow Hide and Fur sold out every #4 they had. Not so much as a newly minted Victor left. > As far as your question of "How close in size, shape and weight > are the Newhouses and Triumphs in relation to traps of the 1800's?" Got my copy of Russell's book today. I had forgotten that standardization didn't come till much later, and every smith was his own factory. Looks like everything from very round to square jaws was made, so I shouldna be to far off to put some modern double longs in my gear. Can't afford the hand forged stuff... yet :) > Lee, another good deal is to look into some of the Bridger #5's. > They have a 7 1/2" jaw spread and are as tough as nails.They are > available from: R-P Outdoors > 505 Polk St. /P.O. Box 1170 > Mansfield, LA. 71052 > 1-800-762-2706 The #5's aren't too big? I'll give 'em a call and see what they got. Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> Subject: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware Date: 13 Mar 1998 03:27:49 -0800 (PST) Hallo! Looking for a good source of info on tents and on cookware. Question 1. Tentage. I've been a little disheartned by the lack of description of tents in the documents I've read... they talk about 'em a lot, but don't generally describe 'em. I was looking to buy a Baker, but can't find anything to support it existed in 1810 in the HBC/NWC territory. As an alternative, I am now looking at going with just a square of canvas, as I know Mike Katona travels with. Question is, just how big is your square, and if you had to buy it again today, how big would ya buy it? Question 2. Cookware. I am torn between a small cast iron kettle (5 quarts) and a tin "corn boiler". Logic sez the boiler is probably more appropriate for the mounted traveler, but what is a good source to find it in, and what do ya'll carry? And... what about these folding frying pans I see everywhere, is there documentation for these? Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capote oxymorons Date: 13 Mar 1998 09:03:11 -0700 I only have time for a quick response to this thread--I'll send some details next week. 1. Hoodless capots : Yes, there were hoodless capots. It's not an oxymoron any more than a green blackboard is an oxymoron. Words change their meanings through time. My working definition of a capot, after studying numerous journal entries and other writings describing capots, and looking at pre-1821 pictures of voyageurs, is that a capot of this time period was an overcoat made from blankets or heavy cloth, which closed with a sash and sometimes a toggle at the neck. It was usually knee-length, with full-length sleeves that fit closely at the wrist (_not_ hanging down in big open cuffs that let in the cold). Hoods were often, but not always, part of a capot. I've found nothing suggesting that voyageur capots had fringes on them, or tassels on the hood. (Some Native capots of this period, however, did have quill-wrapped fringes.) How do folks pronounce 'capote'? I checked a dictionary of Quebec French, and found that 'capot' (pronounced cap-oh) and 'capote' (pronounced cap-oat) both mean 'overcoat' in modern Quebec usage. The word capote' (cap-oh-tay) means crazy. I've heard some people say 'cap-oaty'; is this from Spanish, or just a rendezvous thing? 2. Effigy hoods/square hoods : the square hood someone described earlier sounds a lot like the Cree women's hoods of the Canadian fur trade during my pre-1821 period (other nations wore them too). I'll post a couple of descriptions of these hoods next week. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capote oxymorons Date: 13 Mar 1998 14:21:14 -0700 Angela, When you get time to sharing your information on capotes, it would be interesting to see what period first-source references you have that: First, use the word capote, and second, use the word capote to describe a coat without a hood. Contemporary use of the word "capote" is part of the problem we face in trying to achieve a understanding of winter overcoats commonly used in the fur trade period. Wouldn't it be more productive if serious scholars of the fur trade, such as yourself, tried to determine the period use of the word rather than adopting contempory popular use of the word? The last couple of years I've been really trying to attention to occurances of the word "capote" in journals and trade ledgers kept by Americans in the Rocky Mountains. Though I haven't quantified and crunched the numbers, it's my impression that folks in the Central Rockies were just as likely to refer to coats as frocks, overcoats, tunnics, etc. as they were to call them capotes. Since you have looked at more NWC records than most of us -- you might give us some idea if the use of the word "capote" is more common amongst the Montreal-based traders, for whom French was the most common language. It would also be interesting to learn where you got your information about how capotes usually closed and fastened. If you look at the four examples recorded by James Hanson and Kathryn Wilson in volumes 1 and 2 of the Mountain Man's Sketch Book, you'll see that every example that they documented was double breasted, having from 8 to 10 buttons. One of the four capotes in the sketchbook seems to have much more open cuffs on the sleeves than the other three. Either style and size of cuff works if it's properly mated to the styles of shirt cuffs and mitten gauntlets that are used with it. A narrow sleeve opening commits you to use the plunge-style mits common amongst the natives fo arctic and subarctic. The big open-style cuff would be more of a concern if worn with modern shirts and sweaters, but if you wear them with two period shirts with the big gathered sleeves you find the capote's sleeve openings are pretty effectively plugged with excess shirt fabric. The big open sleeve is also the design best matched to use with the style of Canadian mittens shown on page 17, of Sketchbook 2, because the sleeve easily slips over and completely overlaps the wrist area -- compensating for the absence of guantlets on the mittens. I'll try to get the money in the mail today for a subscription to Northwest Journal. Has the issue with your capote article already gone to press? Dave -----Original Message----- >I only have time for a quick response to this thread--I'll send some details >next week. > >1. Hoodless capots : Yes, there were hoodless capots. It's not an oxymoron >any more than a green blackboard is an oxymoron. Words change their meanings >through time. My working definition of a capot, after studying numerous >journal entries and other writings describing capots, and looking at >pre-1821 pictures of voyageurs, is that a capot of this time period was an >overcoat made from blankets or heavy cloth, which closed with a sash and >sometimes a toggle at the neck. It was usually knee-length, with full-length >sleeves that fit closely at the wrist (_not_ hanging down in big open cuffs >that let in the cold). Hoods were often, but not always, part of a capot. >I've found nothing suggesting that voyageur capots had fringes on them, or >tassels on the hood. (Some Native capots of this period, however, did have >quill-wrapped fringes.) > >How do folks pronounce 'capote'? I checked a dictionary of Quebec French, >and found that 'capot' (pronounced cap-oh) and 'capote' (pronounced cap-oat) >both mean 'overcoat' in modern Quebec usage. The word capote' (cap-oh-tay) >means crazy. I've heard some people say 'cap-oaty'; is this from Spanish, or >just a rendezvous thing? > >2. Effigy hoods/square hoods : the square hood someone described earlier >sounds a lot like the Cree women's hoods of the Canadian fur trade during my >pre-1821 period (other nations wore them too). I'll post a couple of >descriptions of these hoods next week. > >Your humble & obedient servant, >Angela Gottfred >agottfre@telusplanet.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox <ThisOldFox@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware Date: 13 Mar 1998 22:06:38 EST Lee writes: > Cookware. I am torn between a small cast iron kettle (5 quarts) and a tin > "corn boiler". Logic sez the boiler is probably more appropriate for the > mounted traveler, but what is a good source to find it in, and what do > ya'll carry? And... what about these folding frying pans I see > everywhere, is there documentation for these? Lee, Check out Peter Goebel's site, Goose Bay Workshops. He makes an early and a late style tinned copper boiler and they have to be the BEST available. Buck Conner of Clark & Sons Mercantile sells them. They are probably more durable than the tin boilers and will last a lot longer. They heat up quick and hold the heat, unlike tin which tends to cool rather quickly. If you are really hooked on tin, I just added a couple of tinsmiths to the Sutler's Page. All the links should be there. The hammered sheet steel fry pans are used extensively back east by many trekkers and are much lighter to carry than cast iron. Both the copper boiler and the skillet are the only metal I carry in my haversack. OldFox Dave Kanger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA <RR1LA@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware Date: 14 Mar 1998 00:54:14 EST Dear Lee, This pilgrim can't answer your question about tent documentation, but can say that I've camped in a number of squares (diamond flys), and although an 8 footer was ok for one in a primitive situation, there was no headroom; a 12 footer slept two comfy with gear outside the fly, and a 16 footer slept two real comfy, room for the gear down the middle and room to stand up inside, outta the weather. I'll leave the responses about Bakers' to others, but I hear you wont find any documentation about them, cuz they weren't there at the time you mention. As far as I can tell about cookware, a cast iron kettle, although weighty, allows you to keep a 'stew' going for days as you add stuff to it. The light- weight corn boiler serves many useful purposes; combined with a 'squirrel cooker' for your meat and you're in business. Folding frying pans seem to be a happy medium, and are available from The Mountain Forge, High Point NC (910) 454-4366 and as they advertise, they are documented, from "Grants Pouch" book, pg 197" Hoping this give you some 'food for thought'. YMHOS, PJ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaslow <zaz@pacificnet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware Date: 14 Mar 1998 06:32:05 -0800 (PST) Lee, With regard to tents, look at the Miller paintings. There are many wedge tents documented in them and also the square pieces of canvas (or blankets) used as a shelter. I use a square piece of canvas that is 10' X 10' and it is more than sufficient for 1 person and a lot of gear or even 2 people. With regard to the cookware. I personally don't like cast iron; too heavy. I carry a corn boiler of the type you speak (although I have never found exact documentation) and another pot like in the picture on page 26 of "The 1837 Sketchbook of the Western Fur Trade" by Rex Alen Norman (very good reference.) I also have a small folding frying pan which I sometimes carry. I know I have seen documentation on it, but can't remember where. (I think it might have been in the Fur Trade Quarterly.) Also, speaking of the Fur Trade Quarterly, I heard that in one of the last couple of issues, there was a great article on tinware. Unfortunately, I got my renewal and need to send it in so I can continue getting the Fur Trade Quarterly (and this article.) Hope this helps. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ________________________________________________________________________________ At 03:27 AM 3/13/98 -0800, you wrote: >Hallo! > >Looking for a good source of info on tents and on cookware. > >Question 1. > >Tentage. I've been a little disheartned by the lack of description of >tents in the documents I've read... they talk about 'em a lot, but don't >generally describe 'em. I was looking to buy a Baker, but can't find >anything to support it existed in 1810 in the HBC/NWC territory. As an >alternative, I am now looking at going with just a square of canvas, as I >know Mike Katona travels with. Question is, just how big is your square, >and if you had to buy it again today, how big would ya buy it? > >Question 2. > >Cookware. I am torn between a small cast iron kettle (5 quarts) and a tin >"corn boiler". Logic sez the boiler is probably more appropriate for the >mounted traveler, but what is a good source to find it in, and what do >ya'll carry? And... what about these folding frying pans I see >everywhere, is there documentation for these? > >Regards > >Lee Newbill >Viola, Idaho >email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu >Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage >http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaslow <zaz@pacificnet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capote oxymorons Date: 14 Mar 1998 06:56:51 -0800 (PST) David, I think I get it. If you are a mountaineer that has a capote without hood, then you have no testicles and become a mountain gelding. Boy, am I glad my capote has a hood!!! Sorry, I couldn't resist. It really is a good piece of research. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 >However, if they are a capote they do have to have a hood. The hood could >be detachable, but when it's detached you don't have a capote. It's much >like a stallion; by definition the stallion has testicles, and once they are >detached you no longer have a stallion -- you have a gelding -- not a >stallion with detachable testicles. > >To take this strain of thought a step further, mountain men weren't beaver >trappers with detachable capotes. You don't by definition have to have a >copote if you are a mountain man, but you do by definition have to have >testicles. So if a modern mountain man is inclined to prefer a large >overcoat with no hood, let him have the courage to defy the modern cultural >norms of behavior and venture forth to rendezvous capoteless. > >Hope this really clears things up. > >Dave T. >-----Original Message----- >From: Basha Richey <mstar176@wf.net> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Cc: Mstar176@wf.net <Mstar176@wf.net> >Date: Monday, March 09, 1998 4:48 PM >Subject: MtMan-List: Sack hats > > >>Longtrail, >> Nice link for reproduction fabrics. Patchworks, is going on my >>favorite list. I was particularly intrested in the indigo material. >> Wes Housler had a nice period piece at the RMNR last year in Montana. >>It was a cap made from a scrap of wool, essentially a bag with exagerated >>corners (to resemble ears) with one side cut out for his face. There are >>many examples in Alfred Jacob Millers artwork of this type of headgear. The >>one that comes to mind, is the oil painting of the "Trappers Bride". Two >>of the trappers in the background are wearing "sacks". It seems to me, >>that if you didn't have a hat, that one of these simple creations would be >>a good substitute. Miller also shows hunters using them to approach game, >>on all-fours, as camoflodge. In the AJM painting titled "Trappers and >>horses around a fire" used as an illustration in Ruxtons "Life In The Far >>West"(edited by Hafen) is a trapper wearing a "sack" made with a checked or >>crossed, striped pattern. Since the bags were made out of anything that >>was available (my opinion) then a piece if the woven Indigo from patchworks >>might be a nice piece of material for a reproduction of that trappers "Sky >>Piece". >> I believe Paul Mueller said in a recent link, that hoods were not >>attached to capotes, rather were buttoned or tied on. Am I wrong about the >>"sacks" or were they hoods for Capotes? Miller's paintings have few, if >>any capotes, but it was summertime. If anybody would like to shed light on >>the origins of the "sacks", I would be glad to hear it. >> >>John Richey >>"Yellow Stone" >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand <Traphand@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware Date: 14 Mar 1998 11:08:53 EST LEE on the fring pan,a photo of it is in THE KENTUCKY RIFLE HUNTING POUCH BY MADISON GRANT,PAGE197 it is called it the book a mass kit .this mass kit was used throughout the revoluionary war by a man from berk county,penn.made of wrought iron 61/4in diameterand 21/4 deep . r traphand ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE <LODGEPOLE@aol.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Goose Bay Workshops Date: 14 Mar 1998 18:19:04 EST Before everyone starts asking, Goose Bay Workshops: http://www.teleport.com/~walking/goosebay/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sean@naplesnet.com (Addison O. Miller) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware Date: 14 Mar 1998 20:20:05 -0500 Lee... For our Treks, I use a 10x10 canvas and make a diamond fly... I carry a bioler pot 4" in daimeter, and a wee coffee pot I found at Ronny somewhere. MAkes 2 cups (about 1 pint +). I also use a 9" wrought iron skillet that I can put a stick into to hold it. Found out the hard way that damn iron handle gets hot quick!!! That usually lets me cook anything I need to cook.... oh... and my tin coffee cup. Most of this is shown in the Highland Rangers Sketch Book. I'll get you the info on the book... its at the office at present. Its during Oglethorpes Hingland Rangers here in north america. Every thing fits into or on my canvas "backpack". 2 blankets, eatin ware, a wooden bowl, canteen, spy glass, fire kit, some pine knots, possible bag and horns, compass/sun dial, fishing kit, hawk, good knife, grub, musket, towel and biodegradable soap (I cheat a bit), extra shirt and knickers, 2 pr socks, small candle "flashlight", 4-6 candles, pipe and fixin's... that about does it. The 10x10 fly gives me enough room for me and my gear, and cook under if it is bad weather. I have a way of folding it so it is nice and snug if it is REALLY raining. We don't have snow here in South Florida... Addison Miller ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Josh Swinehart <totwolf@yahoo.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Fur Trade Quarterly Date: 14 Mar 1998 20:18:34 -0800 (PST) Would someone please post the snail mail address or URL for the Fur Trade Quarterly I am just getting into re-enacting and could use any material I can get my hands on, thanks, JS _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> Subject: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 15 Mar 1998 02:28:31 -0800 (PST) Hallo the Camp! I appreciate all the responses I got on the tent question. Interesting thing on the Baker tents... I asked one of the companies that makes 'em (Don Strinz Tipi, Inc.), and got the following answer. ***************************************** While the Baker style tent is accepted at most rendezvous, it was not actually introduced until around 1900. These were given to such groups as the Boy Scouts as military surplus. Since many people had them, they became accepted at the rendezvous. But to be accurate, they do not fit the 1810 time period. (From Jo Strinz) ***************************************** This is from the folks that research the tents, then manufacture and sell 'em. I must admit disappointment as they appeared to be a neat package :( >From the replys I've gotten, looks like a lot of folks swear by the 10x10 canvas diamond, and that is where my greenbacks will go. Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: cookware & shelters Date: 15 Mar 1998 09:23:06 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BD4FF3.F66FA100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- Lee I have one of the folding skillets that several people have refered to. = It is a terrific item, if a little pricey. I got mine about three years = ago and have had more offers to trade than I can list. I haunted flea = markets and garage sales until I found a lid that fit perfectly and = looked right. I keep a muslin bag of dried grub, a small horn with salt = & pepper (together) and a spoon in the skillet with the handle folded = and tied over the lid. I keep the whole thing in a lightweight canvas = bag to keep the soot, etc from getting everywhere. I hope I can manage = to live long enough to wear it out, because it built like a Mosler safe. = If you want to go light you can more than manage with that skillet and = a big tin cup. A big corn boiler is lightweight, etc but I had a hard = time documenting it back far enough and gave it to a Civil War = re-enactor. Get a big tin lined copper kettle if you need a bigger pot. = Cast iron pots go back forever but they are as heavy as, well, iron. =20 I use a 10 X 10 canvas set up as a diamond fly and have plenty of room = for all my gear, a stash of water (and a little firewood if the weather = is rainy) together with my six foot six, 350 pound self. However, with = all that duffle under there any companion should be prepared to snuggle. = You can also keep a small fire pretty well sheltered from most rain out = under the front "fly". If your bedroll is a good one you can be = remarkly comfortable in pretty cold weather. I kept plenty warm with = the outside temperature at 6 degrees in January 1996 on the banks of the = Rio de los Brazos de Dios in north Texas. (River of the Arms of = God---the Brazos River). =20 As someone said, a Baker tent probably can't be documented to the early = 19th century--possibly only to the early 20th century. =20 =20 YF&B Lanney Ratcliff rat@htcomp.net=20 ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BD4FF3.F66FA100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 = http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 = HTML//EN"> <META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-----Original = Message----- From:=20 Lanney Ratcliff <<A=20 href=3D"mailto:rat@htcomp.net">rat@htcomp.net</A>> To: <A=20 href=3D"mailto:lnewbill@uidaho.edu">lnewbill@uidaho.edu</A> <<A=20 href=3D"mailto:lnewbill@uidaho.edu">lnewbill@uidaho.edu</A>> Dat= e:=20 Saturday, March 14, 1998 11:10 PM Subject: cookware &=20 shelters </DIV> <DIV>Lee</DIV> <DIV>I have one of the folding skillets = that several=20 people have refered to. It is a terrific item, if a little = pricey. I=20 got mine about three years ago and have had more offers to trade than I = can=20 list. I haunted flea markets and garage sales until I found a lid = that fit=20 perfectly and looked right. I keep a muslin bag of dried grub, a = small=20 horn with salt & pepper (together) and a spoon in the skillet with = the=20 handle folded and tied over the lid. I keep the whole thing in a = lightweight=20 canvas bag to keep the soot, etc from getting everywhere. I hope I = can=20 manage to live long enough to wear it out, because it built like a = Mosler=20 safe. If you want to go light you can more than manage with that = skillet=20 and a big tin cup. A big corn boiler is lightweight, etc but I had = a hard=20 time documenting it back far enough and gave it to a Civil War = re-enactor. =20 Get a big tin lined copper kettle if you need a bigger pot. Cast = iron pots=20 go back forever but they are as heavy as, well, iron.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I use a 10 X 10 canvas set up as a = diamond fly=20 and have plenty of room for all my gear, a stash of water (and a little = firewood=20 if the weather is rainy) together with my six foot six, 350 pound = self. =20 However, with all that duffle under there any companion should be = prepared to=20 snuggle. You can also keep a small fire pretty well sheltered from = most=20 rain out under the front "fly". If your bedroll is = a good=20 one you can be remarkly comfortable in pretty cold weather. I kept = plenty=20 warm with the outside temperature at 6 degrees in January 1996 on the = banks of=20 the Rio de los Brazos de Dios in north Texas. (River of the Arms = of=20 God---the Brazos River).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As someone said, a Baker tent = probably can't be=20 documented to the early 19th century--possibly only to the early 20th=20 century. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>YF&B</DIV> <DIV>Lanney Ratcliff</DIV> <DIV><A=20 href=3D"mailto:rat@htcomp.net">rat@htcomp.net</A> </DIV></BOD= Y></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BD4FF3.F66FA100-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Longtrail <ezra@midrivers.com> Subject: MtMan-List: deer hides Date: 15 Mar 1998 09:09:15 +0000 I am running short of hides, please advise if you know of any deer farms. Also would be interested in setting something up with individuals for the next hunting season. Thanks Longtrail ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware Date: 15 Mar 1998 11:29:17 -0700 Anyone who hasn't already done it should checkout Tentsmith's web site. They've got about as much historical documentation on tents as I've seen in anyone location. The earliest documentation that they've found for the bakers tent is 1856, and that documentation is in the writing of Henry David Thoreau. It's a long way from Walden Pond to the Great Salt Lake. -----Original Message----- >Dear Lee, This pilgrim can't answer your question about tent documentation, >but can say that I've camped in a number of squares (diamond flys), and >although an 8 footer was ok for one in a primitive situation, there was no >headroom; a 12 footer slept two comfy with gear outside the fly, and a 16 >footer slept two real comfy, room for the gear down the middle and room to >stand up inside, outta the weather. I'll leave the responses about Bakers' to >others, but I hear you wont find any documentation about them, cuz they >weren't there at the time you mention. > >As far as I can tell about cookware, a cast iron kettle, although weighty, >allows you to keep a 'stew' going for days as you add stuff to it. The light- >weight corn boiler serves many useful purposes; combined with a 'squirrel >cooker' for your meat and you're in business. Folding frying pans seem to be >a happy medium, and are available from The Mountain Forge, High Point NC (910) >454-4366 and as they advertise, they are documented, from "Grants Pouch" >book, pg 197" > >Hoping this give you some 'food for thought'. YMHOS, PJ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capote oxymorons Date: 15 Mar 1998 11:35:58 -0700 You got the first part correct, but if you checked one of the replies, you'd see that if you were a sailor docked in a French port, you wouldn't go on shore leave without your capote, and that a guy probably should have been schooled in that wisdom by his mother. It's amazing the wisdom that can be gleaned from people who participate in this dialogue. -----Original Message----- >David, > >I think I get it. If you are a mountaineer that has a capote without hood, >then you have no testicles and become a mountain gelding. > >Boy, am I glad my capote has a hood!!! > >Sorry, I couldn't resist. It really is a good piece of research. > >Best Regards, > >Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 > >>However, if they are a capote they do have to have a hood. The hood could >>be detachable, but when it's detached you don't have a capote. It's much >>like a stallion; by definition the stallion has testicles, and once they are >>detached you no longer have a stallion -- you have a gelding -- not a >>stallion with detachable testicles. >> >>To take this strain of thought a step further, mountain men weren't beaver >>trappers with detachable capotes. You don't by definition have to have a >>copote if you are a mountain man, but you do by definition have to have >>testicles. So if a modern mountain man is inclined to prefer a large >>overcoat with no hood, let him have the courage to defy the modern cultural >>norms of behavior and venture forth to rendezvous capoteless. >> >>Hope this really clears things up. >> >>Dave T. >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Basha Richey <mstar176@wf.net> >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >>Cc: Mstar176@wf.net <Mstar176@wf.net> >>Date: Monday, March 09, 1998 4:48 PM >>Subject: MtMan-List: Sack hats >> >> >>>Longtrail, >>> Nice link for reproduction fabrics. Patchworks, is going on my >>>favorite list. I was particularly intrested in the indigo material. >>> Wes Housler had a nice period piece at the RMNR last year in Montana. >>>It was a cap made from a scrap of wool, essentially a bag with exagerated >>>corners (to resemble ears) with one side cut out for his face. There are >>>many examples in Alfred Jacob Millers artwork of this type of headgear. The >>>one that comes to mind, is the oil painting of the "Trappers Bride". Two >>>of the trappers in the background are wearing "sacks". It seems to me, >>>that if you didn't have a hat, that one of these simple creations would be >>>a good substitute. Miller also shows hunters using them to approach game, >>>on all-fours, as camoflodge. In the AJM painting titled "Trappers and >>>horses around a fire" used as an illustration in Ruxtons "Life In The Far >>>West"(edited by Hafen) is a trapper wearing a "sack" made with a checked or >>>crossed, striped pattern. Since the bags were made out of anything that >>>was available (my opinion) then a piece if the woven Indigo from patchworks >>>might be a nice piece of material for a reproduction of that trappers "Sky >>>Piece". >>> I believe Paul Mueller said in a recent link, that hoods were not >>>attached to capotes, rather were buttoned or tied on. Am I wrong about the >>>"sacks" or were they hoods for Capotes? Miller's paintings have few, if >>>any capotes, but it was summertime. If anybody would like to shed light on >>>the origins of the "sacks", I would be glad to hear it. >>> >>>John Richey >>>"Yellow Stone" >>> >>> >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes, hoods & etc. Date: 15 Mar 1998 13:19:55 -0700 Henry, Boy am I impressed! I had three professors in college who all passed through Lubbock and Texas Tech on their way achieving academic accolades and you have a better education than all three of them combined. Of course, it's possible that they had a liberal education when they left Lubbock, but that they lost it when they passed through College Station. (If that doesn't bait Clay Landry into this fray, he's either sleeping or working off-line.) You make a good point, and it kind of reminds me of some of the debates I've heard about the meaning of various passages in the Bible. If you can't read Latin, Greek, and Hebrew -- you hadn't better even start to participate in those debates. In the case of "capote," however, isn't there some common meaning to how the root has been used in all those different language? For example, in the use of the root in capital, doesn't it communicate a building with a dome covering -- with the dome being the hood implied from the Latin root "cap?" It appears that when you broaden the analysis to how words with same root are used in the other romantic languages that you you come up with same results -- it's something that covers the top. The alarming thing about taking this angle on the historical use of the word, "capote", is that the educated journal keepers of the day, such as David Thompson, Peter Skene Ogden, Peter Fiedler, et al, had a better education in Latin and other languages than do most of the people do who read their journals today. Knowing Latin and other languages was, then, a more important part of a person's education. I'll venture to suggest that most of the traders and their clerks employed by NWC or HBC would have known and understood more about the specific meaning of the words they chose to use than most us do today who study their records. In addition to capote, other good examples of fur trade words and names that we've inherited include Boise, Nez Perce, Tetons, Gross Ventre, etc.. When those words were first applied by people in the fur trade they had specific descriptive value that most people in the business understood. Today, fewer of us have the education in Latin or French to appreciate the descriptive value of the word's roots. I'm going to hang tough in the belief that the fur traders who wrote the word "capote" in 1820 fully appreciated and utilized the word's descriptive quality. On the other hand, I fear, it's the neo-traders at buckskin rendezvous whose simpler vocabularies are creating an evolution towards a less descriptive trade language. Dave T. Aux Aliments de Patisseries -----Original Message----- >>Basha Richey wrote: >> >>> Dave T, >>> Thanks for exposing the roots, that was just exactly the >>> type of >>> info I was looking for. If anyone cares to contribute more, we >>> will boil >>> 'em down an make a tea. >>> I appreciate the precise definition of the french origin >>> of the name >>> of the hooded garments. >> >><snip out some stuff> >>I feel a little awkward quoting latin in the mountain man camp. >>My dictionary also traces the term capote back to the French, but >>clearly the root word for a whole host of terms, from capital to >>cap to kaput is the Latin capitalis. I wonder if there is an >>even older Greek term that is similar! Anyway, I see a >>continuous tradition of hooded military and civilian capes and >>coats preceding the nineteenth century. > >Just to throw more hardware into the works, the Spanish term capote, with >the accent on th last syllable, translates as "cape." Three years ago, I >wrote the history of a log cabin here at the Museum that was moved from >Guadalupe County, Texas. The structure is officially called the El Capote >Cabin. It came from a stock farm of the same name, so named because of the >cape-like land formations located near the farm. The formations were named >way back during the Spanish period, pre 1821. It does not surprise me that >the French, Latin, and Spanish terms are identical except for slight >differences in pronounciation. > >My two pesos. > >Cheers, >HBC > >***************************************** >Henry B. Crawford Curator of History >mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University >806/742-2442 Box 43191 >FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum >********** Opening Day, March 31!!! ********** > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capote oxymorons Date: 15 Mar 1998 14:21:39 -0700 Paul, Can you provide the citation for the literature that you quote? It sounds interesting. I'm not sure what we can conclude from the quotation you offer. Is it that some capotes had collars and others had hoods, ergo if they had collars they did not have hoods -- that a collar is exclusive of a hood? This inference my not be all that meaningful, given that some capotes had both collars and hoods, as is illustrated in one of the capotes in shown in one of Hansen's and Wilson's Mountain Man Sketchbooks. Since the French word's root means that it the coat covers the head, it seems more logical to conclude that the author's meaning was that the slave's capote had no collar, rather than that his master's capote (coat with a hood) had no hood. The French word generally used for a coat without a hood is "manteau." The author you quote certainly could have said, had it been his meaning, that everyone wore blanket manteaus. When you suggest that this passage shows that in 1803 Frenchman used the word capote as we do today, certainly you must mean "we" as rendezvous buckskinners use the word today, because as one participant in this discussion pointed out -- that's not how the French commonly use the word "capote" today. The popular use for "capote" in France today is synonymous with condom, and a condom that doesn't cover the head is certainly not much of a condom at all. Paul, I'd think that since you have already come pretty close to dominating the market for the most popular kinds of capote, and since you already have the best blankets at the best prices, that you'd want to expand your market niche to capture what might be a new expanding market for alternate traditional manteaus-- frocks, great coats, monkey jackets, anoraks, etc... Buckskinners don't all want to look the same and you might capitalize on the desire for uniqueness by helping provide patterns and fabrics for some of the period-correct alternatives that most people aren't aware of, rather than risk getting bogged down in the capote wars. Paul, I get lots of compliments on the beautiful capote that I made from the pattern and Whitney blanket you sold me, but now that I have one -- I don't need another blanket capote. I really enjoy and use the blanket shirt that I made from that pattern that you sold me, but now I have one I don't need another one. But you know, I don't have one of those Fort Hall monkey jackets and you might sell me the pattern and fabric to sew one of those. In any case, I'm having fun and hope that you are too. Dave T. -----Original Message----- >David Tippets wrote: >> >> Dear Detached, >> >> Saying a capote didn't have a hood is roughly the equivalent of saying a >> horse didn't have a tail, because by definition you can't have one without >> the other. >> >> Capote is a French word that by definition means "with a hood." The French >> word first started popping up in fur trade records written by French fur >> traders describing the hooded skin garments worn by Indians of the subarctic >> region of Canada, way back when French was the dominant language of the fur >> trade. >> >> If you look at many of the primary sources of information about trade goods >> for the Rocky Mountains, you'll see references to big overcoats made out of >> wool blankets -- in which the American and British traders didn't use the >> French word "capote" to describe the coats. There were not then, and there >> are not now, capotes without hoods -- but there were then, and can be now, >> big wool blanket overcoats. >> >> Also, let me suggest that a capote, by definition is not necessarily a coat >> make from from a wool blanket. It's the subcultural habits and colloquial >> vocabulary of modern-day buckskinnerss that is creating a misconception that >> capotes are blanket coats. >> >> Capotes can be made from blankets, but don't have to be made from blankets. >> However, if they are a capote they do have to have a hood. The hood could >> be detachable, but when it's detached you don't have a capote. It's much >> like a stallion; by definition the stallion has testicles, and once they are >> detached you no longer have a stallion -- you have a gelding -- not a >> stallion with detachable testicles. >> >> To take this strain of thought a step further, mountain men weren't beaver >> trappers with detachable capotes. You don't by definition have to have a >> copote if you are a mountain man, but you do by definition have to have >> testicles. So if a modern mountain man is inclined to prefer a large >> overcoat with no hood, let him have the courage to defy the modern cultural >> norms of behavior and venture forth to rendezvous capoteless. >> >> Hope this really clears things up. >> >> Dave T. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Basha Richey <mstar176@wf.net> >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >> Cc: Mstar176@wf.net <Mstar176@wf.net> >> Date: Monday, March 09, 1998 4:48 PM >> Subject: MtMan-List: Sack hats >> >> >Longtrail, >> > Nice link for reproduction fabrics. Patchworks, is going on my >> >favorite list. I was particularly intrested in the indigo material. >> > Wes Housler had a nice period piece at the RMNR last year in Montana. >> >It was a cap made from a scrap of wool, essentially a bag with exagerated >> >corners (to resemble ears) with one side cut out for his face. There are >> >many examples in Alfred Jacob Millers artwork of this type of headgear. The >> >one that comes to mind, is the oil painting of the "Trappers Bride". Two >> >of the trappers in the background are wearing "sacks". It seems to me, >> >that if you didn't have a hat, that one of these simple creations would be >> >a good substitute. Miller also shows hunters using them to approach game, >> >on all-fours, as camoflodge. In the AJM painting titled "Trappers and >> >horses around a fire" used as an illustration in Ruxtons "Life In The Far >> >West"(edited by Hafen) is a trapper wearing a "sack" made with a checked or >> >crossed, striped pattern. Since the bags were made out of anything that >> >was available (my opinion) then a piece if the woven Indigo from patchworks >> >might be a nice piece of material for a reproduction of that trappers "Sky >> >Piece". >> > I believe Paul Mueller said in a recent link, that hoods were not >> >attached to capotes, rather were buttoned or tied on. Am I wrong about the >> >"sacks" or were they hoods for Capotes? Miller's paintings have few, if >> >any capotes, but it was summertime. If anybody would like to shed light on >> >the origins of the "sacks", I would be glad to hear it. >> > >> >John Richey >> >"Yellow Stone" >> > >> > > a little piece about capotes or capots by francis back titled > THE CANADIAN CAPOT (CAPOTE) > In 1803 a french traveller provided an apologetic but accurate >descrition of the blanket capot "all the inhabitants... and their slaves >have capots for winter time. this capote is made of a single blanket and >is loose enough to look like our greatcoat: their is no seem on the >back;they have simply cut on the blankets length enough cloth to make >the sleeves, the collar or the hood: around the skirt is a blue >stripe,and at the extremity of the sleeves is another blue stripe placed >there to look like a cuff.The negroes instead of having a collar have a >hood as those of our charteux or trappist monks... the masters capots >differ because they are a little bit fuller ,made of a finer cloth and >without hoods. this came from a french man in 1803 a capot without a >hood but a collar. they used the word wrong then as we do today. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Parks <kc7cnw@magick.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: URL'S Date: 15 Mar 1998 22:10:58 -0800 I would like to say how very much I'm enjoying the very informative recent posts on the origens of the "Capote", it's great! I would also like to suggest something that may save others time in their research via these postings. When someone suggests others to look at a web-page or that certain information can be found in a book or other reference material, please include in your post...the URL, address or sources for these references. I often find about 10% of the posts are from people asking how they can get hold of the posted info sources, ie: URL's, etc. If this info was given in the original posts it would be very helpful. ie: http://www.tentsmiths.com Regards, _M_ Manywounds W ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capote oxymorons Date: 16 Mar 1998 01:14:57 -0600 <html> At the risk of extending this discussion. <dl> <dd>Random House Unabridged Dictionary seems to indicate a capote can still be, nearly anything anyone wants it to be. <dd>A bullfighters cape,=A0 a bonnet, a strange little fellow, a "pretty little surrey with fringe on the top."=A0 It can even be a hooded cloak. <dd>begin dictionary quote ...=20 <dd>ca=B7pote (k=C3 p=8Et=C6; Fr. kA p=F4t=C6<font= face=3D"Times New Roman, Times">), n., pl.= -potes (-p<font= face=3D"Random House Extended" size=3D3 color=3D"#000000">=8E<font= face=3D"Times New Roman, Times">ts=C6; Fr.= -p=F4t=C6<font= face=3D"Times New Roman, Times">). <dd>1. a long cloak with a hood.=20 <dd>2. a close-fitting, caplike bonnet worn by women and children in the= mid-Victorian period.=20 <dd>3. a bullfighter's cape; capa.=20 <dd>4. an adjustable top or hood of a vehicle, as a buggy.Also,= capot.=20 <dd>[1790=961800, Amer.; < F, equiv. to cape (< Sp= capa CAPE1) + -ote,= fem. of -ot dim. suffix] <dd>Ca=B7po=B7te (k<font= face=3D"Random House Extended" size=3D3 color=3D"#000000">=C3<font= face=3D"Times New Roman, Times"> p=8E=C6t<font= face=3D"Random House Extended">=81), n.<font= size=3D2 color=3D"#000000"> <dd>Truman, 1924=9684, U.S. novelist, short-story writer, and= playwright.=20 </dl>End dictionary quote ... Regarding pronounciations mentioned in an earlier= posting consider from above:=A0 -=A0 k=C3= p=8Et=C6=A0 -=A0= k=C3 p=8E=C6<f= ont face=3D"Times New Roman, Times">t=81 <div align=3D"center"> WARNING: </div> The following questions will only be answerable by those of wry humor and= sufficient majority. Now just where did the penchant for pronounciation of the "e" come= from?=A0 And what does this say about those who use it? John... <dl> <dd>I have included "styled" text and obscure dictionary symbols= in this posting; as a test.=A0 If something strange comes through please= forward to me on the side.=A0 Of course if it all comes through blank you= won't be able to read this part. </dl> <div>John T. Kramer, maker of: Kramer's Best Antique Improver</div> <div>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<< - >>>As good as old!<<<</div> <div><a href=3D"http://www.kramerize.com/"= EUDORA=3DAUTOURL>http://www.kramerize.com/</a></div> mail to: john<kramer@kramerize.com> </html> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg <jal@cray.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware Date: 16 Mar 1998 08:28:06 -0600 A good page on making treking gear is at: http://www.pconline.com/~sctrader/page1.htm Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cwebbbpdr@juno.com (Charlie P. Webb) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware Date: 16 Mar 1998 10:50:37 -0700 Mr. Miller, Read your post with much interest, but do have a question. My 10x10 fly with my other gear makes for a rather heavy pack, at barely sixty years young and in nowhere the physical condition I used to be, I find all sorts of excuses to leave the 10x10 at home due to it's weight. Murphys law applies here if I take it I don't need it, but leave it at home......... well you know the rest of the story. I am not sure what kind of canvas my old fly is made of, but it is very functional except for the weight. Could I impose on you to say a few words about the kind of canvas or material you are using and it's approximate weight? Any one who wishes to comment please do so. I have tried many lighter weight fabrics over the past 40 years but for one reason or another this old chunk of canvas seems to work best except for the extra burden of getting it into the woods. Thank for your thoughts you in advance!!! C Webb CC CO. >The 10x10 fly gives me enough room for me and my gear, and cook under >if it >is bad weather. I have a way of folding it so it is nice and snug if >it is >REALLY raining. We don't have snow here in South Florida... > >Addison Miller > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox <ThisOldFox@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware Date: 16 Mar 1998 15:13:46 EST Charlie Webb writes: > Could I impose on you to say a few words about > the kind of canvas or material you are using and it's > approximate weight? Any one who wishes to comment please > do so. I have tried many lighter weight fabrics over the past 40 > years but for one reason or another this old chunk of canvas > seems to work best except for the extra burden of getting it > into the woods. Many back east are starting to carry tarps made of oilcloth. They are very light, period correct, and can serve several other purposes. I believe that Panther Primitives are selling this product, if memory serves me right. Dave Kanger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: deer hides Date: 16 Mar 1998 15:10:56 -0700 Mule deer population in Utah are at the lowest level they've been in the last half of this Century -- maybe even the lowest of the Century. The biologists whom I've discussed it with don't expect the populations to ever recover to level that they were at in 1960s-1970s, and tell me that most other western States mule deer populations have also declined.. I can't help you with info about deer farms. It sounds like to me, that if the law of supply and demand holds true for buckskin, prices are going to be going up in the West. Maybe whitetail deer will fill the niche in some places, but they sure won't here Suburbanville. -----Original Message----- >I am running short of hides, please advise if you know of any deer >farms. Also would be interested in setting something up with >individuals for the next hunting season. Thanks Longtrail > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike Haught" <mwhaught@netwalk.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware Date: 16 Mar 1998 17:45:17 -0500 Mark Baker's "Longhunter Series covers how to make an oilcloth. I think it is Tape #1. -mwh "Possum, the other white meat!" -----Original Message----- >Charlie Webb writes: > >> Could I impose on you to say a few words about >> the kind of canvas or material you are using and it's >> approximate weight? Any one who wishes to comment please >> do so. I have tried many lighter weight fabrics over the past 40 >> years but for one reason or another this old chunk of canvas >> seems to work best except for the extra burden of getting it >> into the woods. > >Many back east are starting to carry tarps made of oilcloth. They are very >light, period correct, and can serve several other purposes. I believe that >Panther Primitives are selling this product, if memory serves me right. > >Dave Kanger > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Parks <kc7cnw@magick.net> Subject: MtMan-List: RE: Info. Sources Date: 16 Mar 1998 15:13:26 -0800 In an earlier post I mentioned how it would be nice to mention specifics when answering someones question. If you know where someone can locate the info they need. It would be extremely helpful and expediant to include the URL, address, book publisher, etc. So they don't have to post another inquiry in repetition. What may be common knowledge to some will not be the same to others. We all appreciate it when there is a nice blue URL to click on or an name and address for a source of something we may be interested in. I often bookmark them just for reference. ie: Panther Primitives P.O. Box 32-T Normantown, WV. 25267 (304) 462-7718 (Cat. #10 $2.00) Regards, _M_ Manywounds W ThisOldFox wrote: > > Charlie Webb writes: > > > Could I impose on you to say a few words about > > the kind of canvas or material you are using and it's > > approximate weight? Any one who wishes to comment please > > do so. I have tried many lighter weight fabrics over the past 40 > > years but for one reason or another this old chunk of canvas > > seems to work best except for the extra burden of getting it > > into the woods. > > Many back east are starting to carry tarps made of oilcloth. They are very > light, period correct, and can serve several other purposes. I believe that > Panther Primitives are selling this product, if memory serves me right. > > Dave Kanger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE <LODGEPOLE@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 16 Mar 1998 20:07:15 EST In a message dated 98-03-15 23:37:32 EST, you write: << ***************************************** While the Baker style tent is accepted at most rendezvous, it was not actually introduced until around 1900. These were given to such groups as the Boy Scouts as military surplus. Since many people had them, they became accepted at the rendezvous. But to be accurate, they do not fit the 1810 time period. (From Jo Strinz) ***************************************** >> Lee, The reason for the acceptance of the Baker and the Whealen (also non period) is thier similarity in design to structures that the mountainmen would build out of a support structure that was basically the same arrangement as the Baker and Whealen and then covered with a mass of pine boughs. As it isn't either appropriate or even possible to go out and about at a rendezvous and start hacking away on the trees in the area to build such a structure, a canvas version is accepatable, just like canavas tipis are acceptable. Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> Subject: MtMan-List: Canvas and Oilcloth Date: 16 Mar 1998 18:48:08 -0800 (PST) On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, ThisOldFox wrote: > Many back east are starting to carry tarps made of oilcloth. They are very > light, period correct, and can serve several other purposes. I believe that > Panther Primitives are selling this product, if memory serves me right. My experiance with oil cloth is limited, well make that nonexistant. Does not oil cloth tend to deteriote quickly at the fold marks? And how does the wieght compare to... say 10 oz canvas? Always questions, questions, questions... Regards and as always, thanks. Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA <RR1LA@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: deer hides Date: 17 Mar 1998 02:14:25 EST Funny the slant you get depending on who you're talking too. I was speaking with a guy from the California (land of fruits and nuts) Dept of Fish and Game, and he was telling me that the Mule and Whitetail Deer populations are at their greatest numbers in history. And here's the kicker: they attribute that to the demise of the Buffalo, which made room for the Deer herds, deforestation for lumber production and development of lands for residential areas. Basically their theory is that now there is vast amounts of habitat preferred by Deer, i.e. grasslands and parklands vs. plains and forest. Also that the wolf, which was virtually their only natural predator has been eliminated. Go figure. Seems to me the whole country used to be grasslands and forest, but not according to the people in charge of wildlife. Anybody got a thought on this? PJ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pamela Wheeler" <rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents & an old Mtn. mans response Date: 17 Mar 1998 02:39:28 -0600 Howdy you all and Longshot, I sure am happy to hear that we can use the Baker and Whelen tents w/o offending half the camp! I am too banged up to just roll up by a fire like I used too! Sold the tipi to Lance years ago and most eastern rendezvous I slept anywhere that looked comfortable. I remember one time I hung a piece of canvas between two trees and dropped rocks on the rear corners. Made a great place for my gear and I slept by the fire. Yes, I was a lazy camper. Besides all that wasted time could be better used to trade and hunt and eat! Some of you Greybeards may remember my antics at rendezvous. If none of you young whipper snappers mind I will use my Baker or whatever it is unless it is a pack in and then I will just use a piece of canvas to roll up in. Just don't let me hear your rubber air mattress squeak, I have been known to count coup on the "rubber maidens"! Yellow Feather AMM # 251 ---------- > From: LODGEPOLE <LODGEPOLE@aol.com> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents > Date: Monday, March 16, 1998 7:07 PM > > In a message dated 98-03-15 23:37:32 EST, you write: > > << ***************************************** > While the Baker style tent is accepted at most rendezvous, it was not > actually introduced until around 1900. These were given to such groups as > the Boy Scouts as military surplus. Since many people had them, they > became accepted at the rendezvous. But to be accurate, they do not fit > the 1810 time period. > (From Jo Strinz) > ***************************************** >> > > Lee, > The reason for the acceptance of the Baker and the Whealen (also non > period) is thier similarity in design to structures that the mountainmen would > build out of a support structure that was basically the same arrangement as > the Baker and Whealen and then covered with a mass of pine boughs. As it > isn't either appropriate or even possible to go out and about at a rendezvous > and start hacking away on the trees in the area to build such a structure, a > canvas version is accepatable, just like canavas tipis are acceptable. > > Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware Date: 17 Mar 1998 02:41:41 -0800 (PST) Hallo Again! I'd like to thank all of those that responded to my never ending questions on gear and such. I know I can always count on this group to steer me in the right directions when I'm looking for stuff. As ya'll have probably gathered, I am in the process of replacing gear with documented equipment. It's a fun, if expensive process. I'm just hoping that the Missus don't toss me out afore I'm done. She mutters a lot about expensive toys, but hasn't yet reached for the skillet! Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Omanson & Hollinger <homanger@wstcm1.westco.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: deer hides Date: 17 Mar 1998 07:28:44 -0800 I believe here in West Virginia the whitetail population is at its highest ever. There was recently a bill before the state legislature to legalize the use of roadkill deer. I think it was defeated because a few congressmen were worried about the state's "image". But the point is that the deer are practically overrunning the place, and dead deer by the road are a continual sight. I don't know if there are any deer farms in the state or not, but I would be suprised, as a deer farm in WV would be just a little redundant. B. David Tippets wrote: > > Mule deer population in Utah are at the lowest level they've been in the > last half of this Century -- maybe even the lowest of the Century. The > biologists whom I've discussed it with don't expect the populations to ever > recover to level that they were at in 1960s-1970s, and tell me that most > other western States mule deer populations have also declined.. > > I can't help you with info about deer farms. > > It sounds like to me, that if the law of supply and demand holds true for > buckskin, prices are going to be going up in the West. Maybe whitetail deer > will fill the niche in some places, but they sure won't here Suburbanville. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Longtrail <ezra@midrivers.com> > To: hist_text@xmission.com <hist_text@xmission.com> > Date: Sunday, March 15, 1998 9:37 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: deer hides > > >I am running short of hides, please advise if you know of any deer > >farms. Also would be interested in setting something up with > >individuals for the next hunting season. Thanks Longtrail > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capote oxymorons Date: 17 Mar 1998 07:28:25 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BD5176.46410920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, The dictionaries don't all have the same thing to say about "capote," = however, the Random House Unabridged edition that you use is definately = the most colorful. How or where do I find this edition, and how did you = manage to excerpt part of it and mail it to the AMM list? It's a pretty = cool magic trick! Dave T. -----Original Message----- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: Monday, March 16, 1998 8:08 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capote oxymorons =20 =20 At the risk of extending this discussion.=20 Random House Unabridged Dictionary seems to indicate a capote = can still be, nearly anything anyone wants it to be. =20 =20 A bullfighters cape, a bonnet, a strange little fellow, a = "pretty little surrey with fringe on the top." It can even be a hooded = cloak. =20 =20 begin dictionary quote ...=20 ca=B7pote (k=C3 p=8Et=C6; Fr. kA p=F4t=C6), n., pl. -potes = (-p=8Ets=C6; Fr. -p=F4t=C6).=20 1. a long cloak with a hood.=20 2. a close-fitting, caplike bonnet worn by women and children in = the mid-Victorian period.=20 3. a bullfighter's cape; capa.=20 4. an adjustable top or hood of a vehicle, as a buggy.Also, = capot.=20 [1790=961800, Amer.; < F, equiv. to cape (< Sp capa CAPE1) + = -ote, fem. of -ot dim. suffix] =20 =20 Ca=B7po=B7te (k=C3 p=8E=C6t=81), n.=20 Truman, 1924=9684, U.S. novelist, short-story writer, and = playwright.=20 End dictionary quote ... =20 Regarding pronounciations mentioned in an earlier posting consider = from above: - k=C3 p=8Et=C6 - k=C3 p=8E=C6t=81 =20 =20 =20 WARNING:=20 =20 The following questions will only be answerable by those of wry = humor and sufficient majority. =20 Now just where did the penchant for pronounciation of the "e" come = from? And what does this say about those who use it? =20 John...=20 I have included "styled" text and obscure dictionary symbols in = this posting; as a test. If something strange comes through please = forward to me on the side. Of course if it all comes through blank you = won't be able to read this part.=20 =20 =20 John T. Kramer, maker of: Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< - >>>As good as old!<<< http://www.kramerize.com/ mail to: john<kramer@kramerize.com>=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BD5176.46410920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV>John,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The dictionaries don't all have the same thing to = say about=20 "capote," however, the Random House Unabridged edition that = you use is=20 definately the most colorful. How or where do I find this edition, = and how=20 did you manage to excerpt part of it and mail it to the AMM list? = It's a=20 pretty cool magic trick!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dave T.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: = 5px"> <DIV>-----Original = Message----- From:=20 John Kramer <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:kramer@kramerize.com">kramer@kramerize.com</A>> T= o:=20 <A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>=20 <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>> Date:=20 Monday, March 16, 1998 8:08 AM Subject: Re: = MtMan-List: Capote=20 oxymorons </DIV>At the=20 risk of extending this discussion.=20 <DL> <DD>Random House Unabridged Dictionary seems to indicate a = capote can=20 still be, nearly anything anyone wants it to be. <DD>A bullfighters cape, a bonnet, a strange little = fellow, a=20 "pretty little surrey with fringe on the top." = It can=20 even be a hooded cloak. <DD>begin dictionary quote ...=20 <DD>ca·pote (k<FONT=20 color=3D#000000 face=3D"Random House Extended" = size=3D3>Ã<FONT=20 face=3D"Times New Roman, Times"> p<FONT=20 face=3D"Random House Extended">=8E<FONT=20 face=3D"Times New Roman, Times">t<FONT=20 face=3D"Random House Extended">Æ<FONT=20 face=3D"Times New Roman, Times">; Fr. k<FONT=20 size=3D1>A pôt<FONT=20 face=3D"Random House Extended" size=3D3>Æ<FONT=20 face=3D"Times New Roman, Times">), n., pl. = -potes=20 (-p=8E<FONT=20 face=3D"Times New Roman, Times">ts<FONT=20 face=3D"Random House Extended">Æ<FONT=20 face=3D"Times New Roman, Times">; Fr. = -pôt<FONT=20 face=3D"Random House Extended">Æ<FONT=20 face=3D"Times New Roman, Times">). <DD>1. a long cloak with a hood.=20 <DD>2. a close-fitting, caplike bonnet worn by women and = children in=20 the mid-Victorian period.=20 <DD>3. a bullfighter's cape; capa.=20 <DD>4. an adjustable top or hood of a vehicle, as a = buggy.Also,=20 capot.=20 <DD>[1790–1800, Amer.; < F, equiv. to = cape (<=20 Sp capa CAPE1) + -ote, = fem. of=20 -ot dim. suffix] <DD>Ca·po·te (kÃ = p<FONT=20 face=3D"Random House Extended">=8EÆ<FONT=20 face=3D"Times New Roman, Times">t<FONT=20 face=3D"Random House Extended">=81<FONT=20 face=3D"Times New Roman, Times">), n. <DD>Truman, 1924–84, U.S. novelist, short-story = writer, and=20 playwright. </DD></DL>End dictionary quote = ... <FONT=20 size=3D3>Regarding pronounciations mentioned in an earlier posting = consider=20 from above: - k<FONT=20 color=3D#000000 face=3D"Random House Extended" = size=3D3>Ã<FONT=20 face=3D"Times New Roman, Times"> p<FONT=20 face=3D"Random House Extended">=8E<FONT=20 face=3D"Times New Roman, Times">t<FONT=20 face=3D"Random House Extended">Æ<FONT=20 face=3D"Times New Roman, Times"> - kÃ = p<FONT=20 face=3D"Random House Extended">=8EÆ<FONT=20 face=3D"Times New Roman, Times">t<FONT=20 face=3D"Random House Extended">=81 <DIV align=3Dcenter>WARNING: </DIV>The following questions will only be answerable by = those of wry=20 humor and sufficient majority. Now just where did the = penchant for=20 pronounciation of the "e" come from? And what does = this say=20 about those who use it? John...=20 <DL> <DD>I have included "styled" text and obscure = dictionary=20 symbols in this posting; as a test. If something strange = comes=20 through please forward to me on the side. Of course if it = all=20 comes through blank you won't be able to read this = part.<FONT=20 size=3D3> </DD></DL> <DIV>John T. Kramer, maker of: Kramer's Best Antique = Improver</DIV> <DIV>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<< - =20 >>>As good as old!<<<</DIV> <DIV><A href=3D"http://www.kramerize.com/" EUDORA =3D=20 AUTOURL>http://www.kramerize.com/</A></DIV>mail to:=20 john<kramer@kramerize.com> </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BD5176.46410920-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 17 Mar 1998 09:18:32 -0600 (CST) As it >isn't either appropriate or even possible to go out and about at a rendezvous >and start hacking away on the trees in the area to build such a structure, a >canvas version is accepatable, just like canavas tipis are acceptable. Canvas tipis became popular on the plains in part because the tribes noticed Conestoga-type wagon covers as good shelter material. Also, the Indians saw the market in buffalo robes as a boon to their economy and shifted their labor strategy away from tipi making. This market shift left too few tanned winter skins for tipi use, which led to an almost universal acceptance of canvas as a substitute. Although, tipis could still be made with summer skins, by the 1860s, canvas was widely used by the Indians as tipi material, and new buffalo hide tipis were hard to find. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ********** Opening Day, March 31!!! ********** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: MtMan-List: Re:. gunmaker named Amos Polk Date: 17 Mar 1998 09:40:01 -0500 hello the list: trying to find any information available about Amos Polk---gunsmith--. does anyone know what time period he worked the style of weapons he produced the area of the country that he lived or does anyone have any pictures of any of his work. he should have worked in the late 1700 to early 1800 by his style. I have exhausted all the reference books that i have and find no reference to him. I need a good starting point to find info about him. i may have to go to the genological database to get a starting point. i know that this is not a common name. "COULD ANYONE PLEASE HELP" "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL: HAWKNEST4@JUNO.COM *************************END OF MSG****************************** _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: deer hides Date: 17 Mar 1998 09:55:26 -0500 I know that this wont help you right now but if you go by a local processor several months befor deer season you can make a deal with them to buy the hides from the deer that they process. in and around the St Louis area most of the deer processors have several hundred whitetail hides that they sell or some wont even bother and throw away the hides. most of the people that take in a deer to be processed don't want the hides because of the cost of processing and the bother. I saw a stack of deer at a processor near Macon MO. they must have had 250 deer in a pile to be processed. The guy told me that he processed about 400 to 500 deer a year. I asked the owner what he did with the hides. he said that he sends the bigger ones off and the smaller ones get trashed. one year he gave me 12 nice hides, and several sets of small horns to use to make stuff. i made him a nice knife in return. talk to these processors you will be suprised what a deal they will make with you. most whitetail hides will run abour 8 to 10 SQ. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:10:56 -0700 "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> writes: >Mule deer population in Utah are at the lowest level they've been in >the >last half of this Century -- maybe even the lowest of the Century. >The >biologists whom I've discussed it with don't expect the populations to >ever >recover to level that they were at in 1960s-1970s, and tell me that >most >other western States mule deer populations have also declined.. > >I can't help you with info about deer farms. > >It sounds like to me, that if the law of supply and demand holds true >for >buckskin, prices are going to be going up in the West. Maybe >whitetail deer >will fill the niche in some places, but they sure won't here >Suburbanville. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Longtrail <ezra@midrivers.com> >To: hist_text@xmission.com <hist_text@xmission.com> >Date: Sunday, March 15, 1998 9:37 PM >Subject: MtMan-List: deer hides > > >>I am running short of hides, please advise if you know of any deer >>farms. Also would be interested in setting something up with >>individuals for the next hunting season. Thanks Longtrail >> >> > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cwebbbpdr@juno.com (Charlie P. Webb) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware Date: 17 Mar 1998 09:52:49 -0700 I have all the "Baker Tapes", if you recall, Mark says he seldom packs the "oiled tarp" with him anymore due to weight, what he demonstrates is basically a ground cloth/bedroll cover and shelter combination. A 10x10 diamond oiled as Mark demonstrates would weigh even more. I have had very poor long term results with the oiled material available from the Tentsmiths, and Panther. It works fine for a few forages, but then begins to come apart in our Colorado winds. I have used the dark brown, the green and the natural, none of these fabrics in my estimation are suitable for 10 days to two weeks in the woods for use as a ground cloth, but do for awhile any way turn away the rain, snow and sleet when used as a shelter. Hail is another story. The light weight oiled material makes excellent foul weather ponchos or watch coats, but I am not sold on them for larger items like 10x10 plus sized diamond flys. What I have said here is my opinion based on my experiences with the light, weight oiled cloth, I am certainly interested in others experiences as they may greatly differ from mine. The oiled cloth to me is wonderful stuff, but not the total answer to all my assumed needs. If any one knows how to make an attachment of a 10x10 fly to e-mail that would simply mail my fly to my camp spot before I get there and save me the labor packing it in myself I would appreciate hearing about it. <<gg>> C Webb CC CO. "Mike Haught" <mwhaught@netwalk.com> writes: >Mark Baker's "Longhunter Series covers how to make an oilcloth. I >think it >is Tape #1. > > -mwh > "Possum, the other white meat!" >-----Original Message----- >From: ThisOldFox <ThisOldFox@aol.com> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Date: Monday, March 16, 1998 4:57 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware > > >>Charlie Webb writes: >> >>> Could I impose on you to say a few words about >>> the kind of canvas or material you are using and it's >>> approximate weight? Any one who wishes to comment please >>> do so. I have tried many lighter weight fabrics over the past 40 >>> years but for one reason or another this old chunk of canvas >>> seems to work best except for the extra burden of getting it >>> into the woods. >> >>Many back east are starting to carry tarps made of oilcloth. They >are very >>light, period correct, and can serve several other purposes. I >believe >that >>Panther Primitives are selling this product, if memory serves me >right. >> >>Dave Kanger >> > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: deer hides Date: 17 Mar 1998 13:49:31 -0600 (CST) >I know that this wont help you right now but if you go by a local >processor several months befor deer season you can make a deal with them >to buy the hides from the deer that they process. My best source for hides while I was living in Wisconsin was the butcher shops, as Pierce stated. Also, check local taxidermy shops. Many times people can't afford full mounts made, but will go for a cape mount (head and neck). After the cape is taken, you still have a good size hide left (on midwest deer anyway) of about 3-4 ft square or better. Midwestern states like Wisconsin, Missouri, Michigan, etc. grow large specimens of deer. I think the availability of ready feed (corn crops, brush, etc.) and good wildlife management are key factors. Pennsylvania is also one of the premier deer states in the country. Best time is to make inquiries well ahead of deer season, and follow up w/o being a pest. Chances are good that they might just outright give you what you need. Leave your name and phone and ask them to keep you informed with what comes in. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ********** Opening Day, March 31!!! ********** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capote oxymorons Date: 17 Mar 1998 13:36:01 -0600 <html> At 07:28 AM 3/17/98 -0700, Dave T wrote: <blockquote type=3Dcite cite>John, =A0 The dictionaries don't all have the same thing to say about "capote," however, the Random House Unabridged edition that you use is definately the most colorful.=A0 How or where do I find this edition, and how did you manage to excerpt part of it and mail it to the AMM list?=A0 It's a pretty cool magic trick!</blockquote>=A0 Dave, Not quite so magical as you might think. I bought a large standard Random House at the bookstore. Inside a pocket on the back cover was a CD with the entire dictionary on disk. Sounds, pictures, pronunciations, the whole thing. Have only ever seen the one copy. Gave away the paper version. Simple copy and paste + edit. Yep, all the dictionaries have variations, so capote can mean even more different things. There were other copies in the store which did not include the CD. I have found it almost as good as my 1920's Merriam-Webster hard copy. The only CD dictionary I've found which is more complete is the OED version, last time I checked the price it was nearly $900.00; my Random House was only 29.95, on sale. John... <div>Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.</div> <div>John Kramer</div> kramer@kramerize.com </html> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Parks <kc7cnw@magick.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Deer hides & numbers Date: 17 Mar 1998 12:25:06 -0800 The State of Utah has seen a tremendous drop in it's deer population if you compare todays numbers with those of the 1950's & '60's. It's mule deer numbers are on the rise though. Winter kill is the number one cause of deer population decreases and always has been. Severe cold weather or large amounts of snow staying on the ground for weeks covering up their food supply are the main reason for drops in deer counts. Road kill numbers can be high along with coyote predation. Combine this with two or three severe winters in a row.....and you can lose half of a state's deer population. Todays low prices on coyote pelts has brought the coyote populations to an all time high. This is contributing to the increasing problem with fawn survival shortly after birth. This has really begone to effect our antelope population here in Oregon as in other states. Recently the Government had to shoot coyotes on the Hart Mountain Antelope Refuge here in south/eastern Oregon because they were killing a very high percentage of the antelope fawns. Again they were faced with the outcry from the usual groups of nature fakers and animal rights groups that tried to block the shooting of coyotes. Intelligently they went ahead with the shoot and brought the coyote numbers down a peg or two. There is an equation here that is very simple and easy to understand, the average antelope has one or sometimes two fawns a year. On the other hand, coyotes have an average of 7-9 pups a year, of which 5 survive to maturity. An antelope breeds in it's second year, a coyote breeds in it's first year. Considering this, at the end of ten years...starting out with two antelope and two coyotes....and given the averages of survival, ie. Coyotes = five pups and antelope 1.5 fawns per season. my math shows me that we have about 50 antelope and a total of 6,327 coyotes surviving! Now these figures may not be exact (nature never is) but they give you a little basis to understand what a deer is up against. All hunting is controlled by either the states or the feds depending on the game hunted. Neither will let a species become "shot out by hunters". Hunters will not shoot out a species like some did in the past (passenger pidgeon, carolina parrot, buffalo, wolf, etc.) when market hunting was a money maker for many. In Montana & Wyoming, the Whitetail is pushing the mule deer out of it's old habitats. It's happenning here in Oregon to some extent, but not as prevalent as our huge Elk populations that are doing the same to both our Mule Deer and Columbian Blacktails. In some areas of Oregon the Fish & Wildlife Department is considering giving two elk tags per hunter wishing them. This may help to trim down these wildly expanding elk herds. I just wish that when the Bunny huggers scream about these extra tags, they would come up with the money to re-locate the elk instead of chipping so much about it. They wouldn't be caught dead buying a hunting license and yet they won't give a dime to a Fish & Game Department to improve the habitat. Hunters have done more to support wildlife than anyone else in history. This done, it's only fitting that they should be able to reap the benifits of a renewable resource such as their states game. It is very difficult to make a city dweller with no knowledge of how real nature works ( not the stuff on Disney and 90% of The Animal Planet shows) and what it is we get out of our hunting and the satifaction of a well cooked meal of wild game. As mentioned in earlier posts, rural butcher shops are a great place to pick up hides of not only deer, but bear, elk and cow hides. Where I live, we call out a butcher truck ot kill truck. They will come out to your ranch and process a steer, sheep or whatever for $15.00. They will dispatch the animal, bleed it, skin it, and haul it in to their shop to be hung & cooled. They will cut and wrap for .22 cents a pound. If you wish to keep the hide of a steer they will charge you $15.00, as this is what they get for them. Often bear hunters will not wish to keep their games hide. There are fifty-five gallon drums placed around the deer and elk hunting areas during the hunting seasons. These are painted and have the owners name & number on them. Hunters drop their hides off in these barrels. This may be another good way to get all the hides you need. You'll have to do a bit of driving during the seasons though. There are plaenty of hides to be had each year, you just have to discover way s to obtain them. Regards, _M_ Manywounds W ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand <Traphand@aol.com> Subject: MtMan-List: need help Date: 17 Mar 1998 17:36:31 EST i know we have all done this i got a ramrod stuck in the barrel,i know what you are going to ask.cannot do it i think the rod is wedged in the barrel .the rod must have broken into two pieces .i have pu lled the breech and got the ball out. my next thing is to drill it out but before that i thouht i might ask for a little advice. could not shoot it out ,lost the pressure through the touch hole.this is what i am thinking of doing. will weld drill bit to a stock of steel and make a few sleeves so i stay center .i think i got around 10 in. of wood stunk in her.if any one out there could give me a better idea would love to here it. R P ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Klesinger <mtmanbk@writeme.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: need help Date: 17 Mar 1998 15:29:21 -0700 if the breech plug is out drive a steel rod wraped in tape through the bore. Traphand wrote: > i know we have all done this i got a ramrod stuck in the barrel,i know what > you are going to ask.cannot do it i think the rod is wedged in the barrel .the > rod must have broken into two pieces .i have pu lled the breech and got the > ball out. my next thing is to drill it out but before that i thouht i might > ask for a little advice. could not shoot it out ,lost the pressure through the > touch hole.this is what i am thinking of doing. will weld drill bit to a > stock of steel and make a few sleeves so i stay center .i think i got around > 10 in. of wood stunk in her.if any one out there could give me a better idea > would love to here it. > R P ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Klesinger <mtmanbk@writeme.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: deer hides Date: 17 Mar 1998 15:33:42 -0700 > check with your local fish an game. they will some time sell hides and other > parts that have been confiscated. this is a good sorce for lots of spare > parts, bear, elk, beaver !!! bill klesinger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: need help Date: 17 Mar 1998 17:05:25 -0600 (CST) >i know we have all done this i got a ramrod stuck in the barrel,i know what >you are going to ask.cannot do it i think the rod is wedged in the barrel .the >rod must have broken into two pieces .i have pu lled the breech and got the >ball out. You've opened the breech, so what you have essentially is a steel tube with an obstruction. Dump some 3&1 or clean motor oil into the breech end to lube the obstruction. Find a steel rod a little smaller than your bore. Secure the barrel in a vise, and insert the rod into the breech end. Use a ballpeen hammer or 3-5# hammer and pound the stuck rod back out the muzzle end. Make sure you don't mar the rifling, and try to hit the stuck rod tip square. If I understand the problem correctly, that could be one solution. Good luck, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ********** Opening Day, March 31!!! ********** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox <ThisOldFox@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas and Oilcloth Date: 17 Mar 1998 20:17:41 EST Lee Newbill writes: > My experience with oil cloth is limited, well make that nonexistant. Does > not oil cloth tend to deteriote quickly at the fold marks? And how does > the wieght compare to... say 10 oz canvas? Lee, Charlie Webb makes some good points in his post, but there are always trade- offs. The guys I talked to who were using the oilcloth tarps were trekkers and used them extensively. For one thing, we don't have the rocks and gravel back east, that you guys have to deal with out west. A nice soft forest floor isn't near as abrasive. I was concerned about weight, and the mess of the oil as well. The tarps I examined had no oil that could be felt, but the guys said the cloth was still waterproof. There were no fold marks evident on the material, and it is substantially less bulky than canvas. Rather than fold it into a square, they folded it by thirds, and then rolled it, and carried it over the shoulder like a bedroll. It is definitely a walk-in type shelter. I would compare the thickness with that of muslin. In the final analysis, I guess it depends on your needs, the frequency of usage, and the severity of the elements you will subject it to. OldFox ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox <ThisOldFox@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Info. Sources Date: 17 Mar 1998 20:17:39 EST ManyWounds writes: > In an earlier post I mentioned how it would be nice to mention > specifics when answering someones question. If you know where someone > can locate the info they need. It would be extremely helpful and > expediant to include the URL, address, book publisher, etc. So they > don't have to post another inquiry in repetition. What may be common > knowledge to some will not be the same to others. I was responding to Lee's post when I referred to my site. He knows the url, but you are correct in stating what may be common knowledge to some ......etc. > We all appreciate it > when there is a nice blue URL to click on or an name and address for a > source of something we may be interested in. I often bookmark them just > for reference. Here is your nice blue URL: <A HREF="http://users.aol.com/canaltwo/sutlers.htm">The Sutler's Page</A> I have compiled almost 150 popular sutlers dealing with the fur trade era, and included their addresses, their webpage links, and their email addresses. I continue to hear from new sutlers every week and add their information. Also, on this page is a link to the Black Powder Shooters Resource page which has the same info as the Sutlers page, but it deals with muzzleloading suppliers, manufacturers and gunsmiths. It has about 100 links. These links are also on my main page, along with a link to my "Virtual Blanket Trader," which is a place for you to swap, trade, or sell goods with other skinners. <A HREF="http://users.aol.com/canaltwo/newbuff.htm">White Buffalo Society.. </A> If you don't find what you are looking for, it's not for lack of effort on my part. I've tried to make it your one-stop shopping site. Dave Kanger LeVieuxReynard ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Deer hides & numbers Date: 17 Mar 1998 21:09:44 -0500 DAVE HAD A LOT OF GOOD COMMENTS ABOUT THE RELOCATION OF ELK. A plus point to the relocation of elk is that on the buffilo river in arkansas they relocates a buck and several doe elk and now it looks like there will be allowed 10 elk hunting permits in arkansas this year. they have a system for selection but don't know the paticulars. i only feel that the relocation was a good thing. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing <SWcushing@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: need help Date: 17 Mar 1998 22:03:49 EST Traphand., I'd be a little reluctant to use a drill for fear of ruining the barrel should it wander. I managed to start a double patched (pre-cut&lubed) ball awhile back and rather than try to pull it, I used a hard wood dowel and mallet to drive the ball down to the powder and shot it out. With the barrel un- breeched, (de?) try it with several dowels, each longer, and drive it out the breech end. I havn't seated a ball without the powder yet, but there are "those that have and those that will".......good luck! Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing <SWcushing@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:. gunmaker named Amos Polk Date: 17 Mar 1998 22:11:45 EST Hawk, Have looked through all my books and the only "Polk" I can find is a "John H." mentioned in "US Martial Flintlocks" page 121...his name is engraved on an eagle inlay. Sorry I can't find more..... Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: deer hides and deer populations Date: 17 Mar 1998 21:15:59 -0700 Dear PJ, I trust the person you talked to with California Fish and Game was not a game biologist by profession, or was referring in a small local area. The person likely needs to consult with their Department's biologists. Deer habitat requirements and the history of what's happened to deer populations in the West are well described in all textbooks on American big game management. Neither whitetail or mule deer thrive on grassland kinds of habitat. They prefer browse and forbs to grass. In fact, during the most critical part of their annual season -- winter -- both species really depend on browse to survive. The deeper the snow, the more critical browse is to a deer's survival, and the deeper the snow the more important browse also becomes to winter survival of elk as well. None of the deer species are adapted well to surviving the winter season on grass, as are bison in contrast. (You may want to check on the history of bison in California. You have probably been misled about the historic importance of bison in California.) Much of the plight of deer mule deer in the West is not only the loss of winter range to development, but also the degradation of the remaining wildland winter ranges by the invasion of exotic plants that reduce, or completely eliminate, browse species. In the Great Basin part of the Interior West, cheat grass is the biggest culprit. Seeds from this annual grass came into this country with sheep imported from the Mediterranean region. During the last century this single annual grass species has destroyed the browse value of over 4 million acres of Great Basin shrubland. The history of California's deer habitat is a little more complex in that more annual species have been involved and the change wrought by these exotic annuals has been at work longer -- because California has been settled longer and more intensively than other States in the West. California is also unique in the West because its wildlife habitats include more large areas of woodland and hardwood forest. Perhaps, most significantly for deer, oak woodlands with lots of acorns have historically been very important to deer over much of California. The acorn has historically been a more important winter deer food there than in most areas of the west. Oak-maple woodlands dominated by Gambel oak are important through the foothill zones of much of the Interior West, but California has many more oak species and has traditionally had much larger wild nut crops. "Adventures of a Mountain Man: The Narratives of Zenas Leonard" better than any other mountain man journals describe the vegetation communities the mountain men travelled through and lived in. He and his group starved their way across the Sierras in winter. The first food source they encountered to save them from starvation was acorns, already gathered by the Indians that they encountered. Of all the journal keepers, Leonard is probably the best at noting changes in plant communities as he traveled across the west. He noted that California had abundant acorns and larger acorns than he'd seen elsewhere. Leonard also recorded his obsevations of fires intentionally started by Indians buring the California grasslands. I don't have the reference handy to share with you, but about two years ago there was a fantastic article in Discover Magazine about the loss of oak forests (and acorns) in California because of increased frequency in wildland fires that has resulted from the conversion of vegetation types to annual grasslands. Paleo-ecologists studying vegetation changes in California are quoted in the Discover article as concluding that as a result of the inability of native shrubs and trees to survive in the altered ecosystem, it would now be impossible for the Indians and wildlife that once thrived in California to ever survive there again the same way that they once did. As Zenas Leonard observed, the Indians knew that fire was important to maintain oak on the landscape, but what we discovered much later in this Century is that when annual grasses dominate the understory of the woodland -- the fires become so frequent that oak seedlings and browse seedlings can't survive. The land's carrying capacity for both deer and Indians is reduced. Even though California deer once enjoyed the advantage of having both browse and lots of acorns, the habitat change from invading exotics and altering the fire cycle are the same as in less biologically productive parts fo the arid West. The loss of winter ranges across the West as a result of invading exotics is getting worse at an alarming rate. Where we see deer adapting and increasing, is almost always whitetails and in some cases relatively small populations of subspecies that occupy pretty small niches, such as blacktail deer. In the last couple of decades, whitetail deer have moved rapidly up the major river drainages of the West and now provide good whitetail hunting in many areas where it was virtually non-existent before. But in almost all cases, there has been a parallel decline in mule deer populations. In terms of total deer numbers, the small gains made by whitetail deer along river courses and around settlements will never compensate for the decline of mule deer populations over millions of acres of western wildlands. Montana is lucky to have hundreds of miles of river corridors that now provide good whitetail habitat. Utah on the other hand, has been busily damming and drowning its river corridors and Utahns will never enjoy similar riverine whitetail populations. Ironically, mule deer populations reached their peak in the West following a hundred years of heavy cattle grazing that stimulated temporary conversion of grassland to lower-seral shrubland communities that provided deer with more winter browse. That peak in mule deer populations climaxed shortly after World War II and remained artificially high for several decades. But the winter range that supported those populations has now mostly been lost due to subdivision and conversion to annual grasslands. I'd like to believe that every cloud has a silver lining, but in the case of western winter ranges the silver lining seems to be for other exotic species adapted to live on the annual grasslands, such as the Chukar partridge. State and Federal natural resource managers have recognized the problem, but don't have many options in reversing the trend. Perhaps the greatest hope for deer winter range in the West rests with USDA Forest Service's Shrub Sciences Laboratory in Provo, UT. In partnerships with the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources and the USDI Bureau of Land Management in Idaho, scientists are developing new hybrid browse plants that have the ability to resprout after fire -- rather than being killed by the fires that race through the tinder dry annual grasses. Some of the hybrids even have superior palatability and nutritional value as deer browse. Eventually these plants will allow land managers to reclaim some of the lost deer winter range, but it will be a slow and very expensive process to regain the millions of acres already lost to cheat grass and other exotics. Please forgive me for waxing wordy, but loss of our wildlife habitat really gets my blood up. Dave T. -----Original Message----- >Funny the slant you get depending on who you're talking too. I was speaking >with a guy from the California (land of fruits and nuts) Dept of Fish and >Game, and he was telling me that the Mule and Whitetail Deer populations are >at their greatest numbers in history. And here's the kicker: they attribute >that to the demise of the Buffalo, which made room for the Deer herds, >deforestation for lumber production and development of lands for residential >areas. Basically their theory is that now there is vast amounts of habitat >preferred by Deer, i.e. grasslands and parklands vs. plains and forest. Also >that the wolf, which was virtually their only natural predator has been >eliminated. Go figure. Seems to me the whole country used to be grasslands >and forest, but not according to the people in charge of wildlife. Anybody got >a thought on this? PJ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mtnman1449 <Mtnman1449@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 18 Mar 1998 00:47:56 EST Bakers and Whalens may be acceptable at rondezvous, but they are not accepted at AMM encampments. Pat Surrena #1449 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA <RR1LA@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas and Oilcloth Date: 18 Mar 1998 02:32:38 EST Dear Lee and the List, I have an oilcloth Poncho that I got from Panther Primitives and it shows no sign of deterioration or discoloration at the folds. Also, its doesn't feel oily, and the oil hasn't come off on any of my cotton or wool stuff that I have worn under it. But it sure has kept me and on ocassion, my firewood, completely dry. PJ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware Date: 18 Mar 1998 07:37:07 -0600 Wait until you try to explain to her how important it is for you to have a gun that costs $1200 but only shoots once. Lanney Ratcliff rat@htcomp.net -----Original Message----- >Hallo Again! > >I'd like to thank all of those that responded to my never ending questions >on gear and such. > >I know I can always count on this group to steer me in the right >directions when I'm looking for stuff. > >As ya'll have probably gathered, I am in the process of replacing gear >with documented equipment. It's a fun, if expensive process. I'm just >hoping that the Missus don't toss me out afore I'm done. She mutters a >lot about expensive toys, but hasn't yet reached for the skillet! > >Regards > >Lee Newbill >Viola, Idaho >email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu >Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage >http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: need help (stuck cleaning jag) Date: 18 Mar 1998 09:51:45 -0500 TRAPHAND: I have been reading a lot of postings on advice on how to get the rod out of the gun. before we get all carried away lets ask a couple of questions. Why is the rod sticking? what caused the rod to stick? and do i have a problem with the barrel that i do not know about?. when a cleaning rod sticks that bad it usually means one of two things. 1. the barrel is extremely rough and probably been bulged near the breech or ringed by not cleaning properly or from leaving a charge in the gun for long periods of time. the other possibility is 2. the drum or the touch hole liner is extending into the bore of the gun too far and catching the cleaning jag and needs some work to resolve the problem. 3. the cleaning jag on the rifle doesn't have proper relief to give the patch a place to go and to always clear the touch hole liner or drum. USUALLY IT'S A COMBINATION OF THE ABOVE, AND NOT JUST ONE PROBLEM: getting the rod out should not be a problem: first mix up a penetrate lubricant and cleaner made up of 1. peroxide, 2. rubbing alchahol 3. green dish soap. or professional strength 409 cleaner. equal parts. POUR SOME OF THIS SOLUTION INTO THE MUZZLE END AND SUBMERGE THE BREECH END UP ABOVE THE touch HOLE OR BREECH. LET SET FOR A COUPLE OF HRS. THIS WILL CUT THE FOULING AND SOFTEN UP ANY CORROSION AND JUNK IN THE BORE. if the touch hole liner can be removed then do so if not then get ready to do some pounding. get a steel rod a few thousands smaller than the bore diameter. slide down the bore from the breech end and gently tap using the weight of the "rod not a hammer " then do the same from the breech end. you should get some amount of movement from one direction or the other. depending on which direction there is movement then use that end to get the obstruction out. once movement is detected iE: about 1/2 in. soak again with the solvent and let set for about 10 or 15 min. again use the rod and tap the obstruction from the movement end NOTE: DO NOT USE A DRILL TO TRY TO REMOVE IF YOU DO YOU WILL FIND YOU WILL END UP WITH A RUINED BARREL. WHICH IS PROBABLY WHAT YOU ALREADY HAVE BUT ARE TRYING TO SALVAGE WITH THE LEAST AMOUNT OF DAMAGE. the sticking ramrod happens on a lot of barrels that are rough or have a bad bore in them or have the drum or touch hole liner protruding into the bore of the barrel. take your time repeat the process and all of a sudden the rod will slip and can be pushed out or gently tapped. once the rod is out and if you have the breech out of the gun. find the problem and fix it. a good chain saw file and a little patience will remove the protrusion of the touch hole liner or drum into the bore of the rifle. if the barrel is ringed you can fix this but if it is bulged then you may have a real problem. PROBABLY NEED REPLACING if the bore is ringed or rough get a green scower brite or rough rubbing compound and lap the bore in the ringed area using long strokes. NOTE: a little bit goes a long ways. to find if the bore is bulged put a well lubricated cleaning patch on your jag run into the bore and push with a even pressure down the bore. if all of a sudden the pressure is different and the jag seems to slip then it's a good sign the bore is bulged. check the outside of the bore for any hairline cracks. use a loop and inspect the barrel very close, sometimes when a barrel swells it will also crack and it is not easily visible to the human eye. THIS IS DANGEROUS. REPLACE AT ONCE. TRAPHAND IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS DROP ME A NOTE OFFLINE OR GIVE ME A CALL IN THE EVENINGS ABOUT 7:30 OR 8:00 YOUR TIME. the above happens to a lot of cheep barrels (rough bores) or ones that have not been properly assembled. iE(drums or touch hole liners protruding into the bore only slightly.) a lot of rifles you cannot get the cleaning jag past the liner or drum so you will never see this problem or know it's there. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Tue, 17 Mar 1998 17:36:31 EST Traphand <Traphand@aol.com> writes: >i know we have all done this i got a ramrod stuck in the barrel,i know >what >you are going to ask.cannot do it i think the rod is wedged in the >barrel .the >rod must have broken into two pieces .i have pu lled the breech and >got the >ball out. my next thing is to drill it out but before that i thouht i >might >ask for a little advice. could not shoot it out ,lost the pressure >through the >touch hole.this is what i am thinking of doing. will weld drill bit >to a >stock of steel and make a few sleeves so i stay center .i think i got >around >10 in. of wood stunk in her.if any one out there could give me a >better idea >would love to here it. > > R P > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Forrest Smouse <forrest@ubatc.tec.ut.us> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Deer hides & numbers Date: 18 Mar 1998 08:33:04 +0000 Manywounds wrote: > Winter kill is the number one cause of deer population decreases > and always has been. Severe cold weather or large amounts of snow > staying on the ground for weeks covering up their food supply are the > main reason for drops in deer counts. Road kill numbers can be high > along with coyote predation. Here in eastern Utah our deer's worst predator is the lion. We have an over population lions which the farmers are now having problems with. Two Muzzle loader hunts ago while hunting in Browns Park I came upon a secluded spot of large junipers. In this almost tunnel like spot my partner and I found 30 yearling buck skeletons, all apparent lion kills. The Fish and wildlife has finally upped the Lion harvest for this area. Forrest Smouse #1691 LaPoint, Utah ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA <RR1LA@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: deer hides and deer populations Date: 18 Mar 1998 16:21:45 EST Dear Dave, Forrest and the others who responded on this thread: First let me say thank you, and that you've again proven the immense value of this forum. I had a gut feeling this Fish and Game type was nuts, and you've certainly given me the information I was seeking. What's so sad is that it seems the hunters, biologists and naturalists possess this information, but many of the people in charge of protecting, preserving and strengthening the indigenous wildlife don't have a clue. Also, thanks for providing this pilgrim with resources that will allow me to do further study. PJ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pamela Wheeler" <rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 18 Mar 1998 16:35:47 -0600 Thanks Pat for the heads up on AMM encampments! I will bring my piece of "roll up" canvas or sleep by the fire. I don't think anyone can complain about a 6by6 piece of smoked canvas. Sure hope I don't see any nylon sewn skins either. YellowFeather AMM # 251 ---------- > From: Mtnman1449 <Mtnman1449@aol.com> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents > Date: Tuesday, March 17, 1998 11:47 PM > > Bakers and Whalens may be acceptable at rondezvous, but they are not accepted > at AMM encampments. Pat Surrena #1449 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 18 Mar 1998 15:04:01 -0800 (PST) On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Mtnman1449 wrote: > Bakers and Whalens may be acceptable at rondezvous, but they are not accepted > at AMM encampments. Pat Surrena #1449 One of the reasons I finally settled on the 10x10 diamond, it, like the Visa card, is accepted everywhere<G> Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware Date: 18 Mar 1998 15:10:11 -0800 (PST) On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Lanney Ratcliff wrote: > Wait until you try to explain to her how important it is for you to have a > gun that costs $1200 but only shoots once. Already been down that road<G> In a rare moment of brilliance, I bought the Missus a new car to replace her clunker. According to the not-so-meticulous his-n-her balance sheet I keep, I am now $7000 behind Miss Becky in spending and must catch up!<BG> Now.... where is them catalogs <VBG> Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg <jal@cray.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 19 Mar 1998 08:15:32 -0600 I understand that it's the smoking that makes leather waterproof, does this work for canvas too? I'm in the process of making a 10 x 10 diamond fly out of a painters canvas. From what I read you have to be careful about using oilcloth due to flamablity. The trekers page I got the instruction from sounded like they would use oilcoth for a tarp type floor. >Thanks Pat for the heads up on AMM encampments! I will bring my piece of >"roll up" canvas or sleep by the fire. I don't think anyone can complain >about a 6by6 piece of smoked canvas. Sure hope I don't see any nylon >sewn skins either. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JFLEMYTH <JFLEMYTH@aol.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Kalamazoo show Date: 19 Mar 1998 08:59:37 EST Hello the net! Is any body else in the group planning on going to the Kalamazoo Antique Arms and Pioneer Crafts show this week end? The guy I was going with had to cancell on me, but I will still be there. Five buildings, all pre-1890's... How could I pass up that?! Anyone who is familiar witht the show, are there any 'suttlers' there I should make sure to look up? If anybody wants more info on the show, its sponsored by Yankee Doodle Muzzle Loaders, Inc. There number is (616) 327-4557. John Fleming ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paul mueller <pmueller@infinet.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Kalamazoo show Date: 19 Mar 1998 11:01:33 -0500 JFLEMYTH wrote: > > Hello the net! > > Is any body else in the group planning on going to the Kalamazoo Antique Arms > and Pioneer Crafts show this week end? The guy I was going with had to > cancell on me, but I will still be there. Five buildings, all pre-1890's... > How could I pass up that?! > > Anyone who is familiar witht the show, are there any 'suttlers' there I should > make sure to look up? > > If anybody wants more info on the show, its sponsored by Yankee Doodle Muzzle > Loaders, Inc. There number is (616) 327-4557. > > John Fleming John, most of the larger sutlers will be on hand. its a real good trade show. some real good things are there but you must get there early on sta. to get the real good stuff it go's quick. found some real good buys and hard to find items in the past. stop by and say hi if you want i will be in room #1 up by the stage. dyers moc's at one end northwest traders at the other. hope to see you there. paul mueller ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CT OAKES <CTOAKES@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas and Oilcloth Date: 19 Mar 1998 10:42:19 EST In a message dated 98-03-17 23:28:17 EST, you write: << concerned about weight, and the mess of the oil as well. The tarps I examined had no oil that could be felt, but the guys said the cloth was still waterproof. >> One other thing to be concerned about with Oil Cloth is fire. One of the members of our club has a custom made .62 smoothbore with the name Smokey. He had made a diamond shelter out of Oil Cloth (done the Mark Baker way). Well he had all his gear under the diamond and went on a walk about after breakfast. A spark from his fire pit blew up on the shelter and it went up in flames FAST. The fact that it burned so fast is probably why his gun is Smokey and not Charcoal. But we should all remember when using period materials around fires that cotton, fringed linen (cuffs on hunters frocks) and oil cloth are all extremely flamable. Not saying don't use them, just show respect. My wife teaches open hearth cooking at a major museum and her research shows that one of the most common causes of death amony women was burns from skirts catching on fire over the cook fire. Remember burns caused infections and there was no sulfa or antibiotics back in the periods we recreate. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pat Quilter" <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re Smoking Tent Canvas Date: 19 Mar 1998 10:29:06 -0700 Re Smoking Tent Canvas With regards to Smoking leather (as in brain tanning) does not make it shed or repel water, it only keeps the leather from turning back into rawhide when wet. In other words, smoked brain tan soaks up water like a sponge, but it retains its flexibility after drying (with a few shakes, perhaps, like a chamois). HOWEVER, I have noticed that a small fire inside an untreated canvas shelter does seem to appreciably retard the leakage. However, this is after some time in the rain, during which the canvas fibers have swollen anyway. I use an untreated painter's drop cloth for a shelter. It is light, simple, and presumably authentic. If you rig it correctly it will shed water fairly well. You have to avoid sags and pouches, and anything touching the inside such as a stick or rope will wick the water through (DON'T tie your moccasins to the ridge-rope to dry) . If you rig it with fairly steep sides (a wedge with ridgepole or rope, or rather steep diamond pattern) you can get by with only a few drips. Old journals refer to spare blankets draped over "bowers" and the like. I suppose that people travelling in weather in the old days just expected to get wet, at least in the feet and extremities. Those planning to stay put for a while presumably found or made a decent shelter from available materials. Freezing after rain is the only situation where one's health and life is truly threatened -- in these cases, every precaution should be taken to avoid getting soaked, such as holding up in an improvised shelter when the rain starts. A modern camp where we attempt to use travelling-style gear to stay put for a week or so, usually with restrictions on how much we can exploit the surroundings, is a bit of a stretch. I will admit that I back up my leaky shelter with one modern treated piece of canvas which goes around my blankets (and is all I need for real miminal situations). This protects me from rising dampness while sleeping; otherwise I rather prefer to see the ground inside my shelter. I have done without this cloth, but any wind cuts through naked blankets unless you have a buffalo robe or some other windbreak. I would personally at least have another untreated piece of canvas as a bedroll cover. So smoke your canvas if you feel like it, it will at least look more used, and permeate your house with reminders of past camps. I personally don't care for the weight and odor of oil treatments, and they usually wind up leaking somewhere anyway. Yr Ob't S'vt Pat Quilter ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capote oxymorons (longish) Date: 19 Mar 1998 11:37:42 -0700 "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> wrote: >When you get time to sharing your information on capotes, it would be interesting to see what period first-source references you have that: First, use the word capote, and second, use the word capote to describe a coat without a hood.< Paul Mueller already posted the quote I was going to use as an example of the word capot used to explicitly describe a coat without a hood. (The quote he gave is from F. L. Robin's _Voyages dans l'interieur de la Louisiane, de la Floride occidentale et dans les Iles de la Martinique et de Saint-Domingue pendant les anne'es 1802, 1803, 1804, 1805, et 1806_, vol. 2, p. 103, cited in Francis Back's article 'The Canadian Capot (Capote)' in the _Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly_, 27.3 (Fall 1991), pages 4-15. I highly recommend the article--it was a great help in my own research.) Other references that describe capots do not include hoods as part of the description, which suggests that hoods were not strongly connected with people's ideas of what made up a capot. For example, Peter Grant's description of the capots worn by Natives in the Manitoba area in 1804 says they wear "a molton capot, or coat, in the Canadian fashion, which comes down to the knees ; a gun screw or a small peg of wood is sufficient to fasten it about the breast and serve in place of buttons ; they tighten it around the waist with a worsted belt [sash]." (Masson 2:317) It is true, however, that there are other quotes which mention hoods as part of the description of capots. (By the way, the gun screw is actually a gun worm, and it seems to work pretty well--you just screw it into the cloth at whatever spot you want, depending how high up you want the capot to be closed.) Not all of Francis Back's historic examples use the word capot(e), but it's clear they are all describing the same article of clothing. Compare F.L. Robin's & Peter Grant's descriptions with Baroness von Reidesel's 1776 description of "a sort of cassock made of woolen blankets, from which the red and blue borders had not been removed, and which were heavily trimmed with ribbons" (Back, 10). >Though I haven't quantified and crunched the numbers, it's my impression that folks in the Central Rockies were just as likely to refer to coats as frocks, overcoats, tunnics, etc. as they were to call them capotes. Since you have looked at more NWC records than most of us -- you might give us some idea if the use of the word "capote" is more common amongst the Montreal-based traders, for whom French was the most common language.< I don't know if the word 'capot' was more commonly used by North West Company employees than it was by American Fur Company folks; I'm not familiar with the American outfit. However, the Nor'westers definitely used the term 'capot' a great deal, both in lists of trade goods and in descriptions of the clothing of both men and wintering partners. (They also sometimes mention 'blanket coats', which most people accept as meaning the same thing.) 'Great coats' occur quite rarely (I've found only 2 cases), and 'coats' are only slightly more common. The HBC used only 'coats', so far as I've found. BTW, it's important to remember that French was the daily language of the North West Company. NWC journals have many French terms and phrases. There was also a specialized fur trade vocabulary; words in French and English had meanings particular to the fur trade, which had to be explained to outsiders. (Some examples : 'embarassed' means to be inconvenienced by low water; 'march' means to travel by canoe or any other means; 'encampment' is just a place to spend the night, with or without a tent; 'degraded' means to have to stop travelling due to bad weather; 'trenches' or 'tranches' are ice chisels.) >If you look at the four examples recorded by James Hanson and Kathryn Wilson in volumes 1 and 2 of the Mountain Man's Sketch Book, you'll see that every example that they documented was double breasted, having from 8 to 10 buttons.< I know (*sigh*)... You may recall that one of my first postings on this thread was to ask folks if they knew where Hanson & Wilson's information came from (since they provide no references). My research deals with capots from 1774 to 1821. I strongly suspect that there was a change in fashions around 1825 toward buttoned capots. I consulted a number of pictorial sources (sketches & paintings of Quebeckers and voyageurs by Peter Rindisbacher, James Heriot, John Halkett, Capt. Basil Hall, William Richards) and the most common coat shown being worn by the men was fastened by a sash, without buttons. Francis Back's article, which deals primarily with capots prior to 1780, also says that most capots had no buttons. On the other hand, an engraving of Rev. John West visiting the Indians of Red River (Winnipeg area) around 1826 shows him wearing a long, calf-length coat which is fastened with a double row of buttons. (His guide? interpreter? dogsled driver? is also shown; he wears a knee-length coat which is fastened just with a sash. He's also wearing an 'effigy hood'.) >A narrow sleeve opening commits you to use the plunge-style mits common amongst the natives of arctic and subarctic.< And also here in Canada? :-) Again, that huge open sleeve just isn't shown in the pictures that I mentioned above. Sleeves did sometimes have cuffs, though. >I'll try to get the money in the mail today for a subscription to Northwest Journal. Has the issue with your capote article already gone to press?< At long last it has made it to print, and is in the mail today. (Hooray! I was short on time because I was busy stuffing envelopes.) You can refer to it for much more detailed information on capots. Now it's down to the grind for vol. 14! As for the word "capot(e)" and its meaning before 1821 : The best source of information on this would be a pre-1821 French dictionary published in Quebec or Louisiana. (No, I don't know of any.) Modern dictionaries, and dictionaries published in France before 1821 will not be as helpful--French speakers in North America have been linguistically isolated for a very long time. You know how we don't speak the same language here as the folks in the U.K.? (Lift, boot, 'knock up' are a few examples.) Well, I understand that the differences between Quebec French and the French spoken in France are even greater. In fact, until recently Quebec French used to be called 'joual', after the Quebecois word for 'horse' ('cheval' in France). So looking at a modern French or English dictionary is not going to be very helpful when you're trying to find out for certain what a fur trade word meant before, say, 1821. An example : I was reading the French journal of Francois Victor Malhiot, a NWC trader in the Lake Superior region around 1804 (at long last, my classroom French became useful!). Malhiot repeatedly calls Natives 'cra^bles' (especially when he's upset with them). I checked a number of modern French-English dictionaries, the Petit Larousse French dictionary, and did an online search (there are some French dictionaries on the web). Nothing. So clearly this is an obscure, obsolete, or very scurrilous term. By the way, the Petite Larousse says that a 'capote' is a hooded coat ('manteau a' capuchon'), infantryman's coat ('manteau des troupes a' pied'), or a tarp to cover a car ('couverture mobile d'une voiture'). The term for condom is 'capote anglaise' (defined as 'preservatif masculin'). Reminds me of the old term 'French safe'! Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware Date: 19 Mar 1998 11:37:23 -0700 Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> wote: >>Tentage. I've been a little disheartned by the lack of description of tents in the documents I've read... they talk about 'em a lot, but don't generally describe 'em. I was looking to buy a Baker, but can't find anything to support it existed in 1810 in the HBC/NWC territory. << Lee, check out my article on tents in Northwest Journal vol. VI; it deals with the Northwest (i.e. HBC & NWC) before 1821. The quick synopsis is that wedge tents, tipis, and overturned canoes were used for shelter-- the article will give you the references for this. >>Cookware. I am torn between a small cast iron kettle (5 quarts) and a tin "corn boiler".<< Don't make the mistake I did--I'm still using my 5 qt cast iron cauldron! (It weighs a ton, and would never have been allowed in a canoe--those feet are just made for punching holes in birchbark!) Choose a copper, brass, or tin cylindrical kettle instead--they were available in almost every size, since they were shippped in 'nests'. I will second the endorsement of Goebels--good workmanship and great tinning on the copper! >> And... what about these folding frying pans I see everywhere, is there documentation for these?<< I haven't seen any documentation for them in the pre-1821 Canadian fur trade. Frying pans were used, however (contrary to what you may have read in some cookbooks). I'm afraid I haven't found any details, though, aside from the everyday frying pans used in English kitchens. Goebels does a reproduction of copper frying pans excavated from the Tunica site which is about 1780, IIRC. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 19 Mar 1998 13:37:23 -0600 (CST) >I understand that it's the smoking that makes leather waterproof, does >this work for canvas too? > No. Smoking closes the pores in the skin. Canvas hath no pores. Best to get canvas that's been fire treated and waterproofed. It'll save you a lot of misery later. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ********** Opening Day, March 31!!! ********** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware Date: 19 Mar 1998 14:01:23 -0800 (PST) Hallo Again Most of ya'll will be happy to learn that I've just spent me childrens food money for the month on subscriptions to both the NW Brigade Club Quarterly, and the Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly. Also, I finally recieved my very own personal copy of Russell's "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the MM" (the Univ of Idaho can now have theirs back<G>) Which means I'll spend more time reading, and less pestering my more knowledgeble cyberfriends. I really, really, really appreciate all the info, ideas and experiance that has flowed on this list, and look forward to pestering ya'll a great deal more as time goes by. In general on the tentage and cookware... I've decided to go the canvas tarp/diamond direction based on feedback from the forum, and the pot will be a tinned, copper boiler. I really like the ability of the kettle for stews and such, but can't have me poor old packhorses falling over dead from too much wieght (no remarks about me saddle horse!) I'm holding off on the frying pan until I can find out more info... particularly since this area was HBC/NWC and the goods would have come from Montreal or along that supply line. Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox <ThisOldFox@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Kalamazoo show Date: 19 Mar 1998 18:35:33 EST In a message dated 98-03-19 10:05:13 EST, you write: > Is any body else in the group planning on going to the Kalamazoo Antique Arms > and Pioneer Crafts show this week end? The guy I was going with had to > cancell on me, but I will still be there. Five buildings, all pre-1890's... On Sunday, at 12 o'clock, members of the Muzzleloaders Mailing List (MLML) will be meeting at the table of the Lansing Muzzleloaders Club. Several members of that list are also members of this one. You are welcome to join us and meet some new friends. > Anyone who is familiar witht the show, are there any 'suttlers' there I > should make sure to look up? This doins is so big that everyone who is anyone will have a table there. You'll be spinnin' yer wheels trying to figure out who to visit. OldFox ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek <llsi@texas.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas and Oilcloth Date: 19 Mar 1998 18:09:14 -0600 CT OAKES wrote: > One other thing to be concerned about with Oil Cloth is fire. > . . . But we should all remember when using period > materials around fires that cotton, fringed linen (cuffs on hunters frocks) > and oil cloth are all extremely flamable. Not saying don't use them, just > show respect. Some very informal research that may be of slight interest: After considering various ways to period waterproof my new canvas fly, I ran out of time and used the Thompson's Water Seal Method. Actually I used the Behr and Ace brands of the stuff. First I tried a burn test comparing canvas treated with Behr and untreated canvas. I soaked a strip in Behr and let it dry for 24 hours. It didn't smell of petroleum then. I lit a strip of each of them and judged which burned faster. They were the same - they BOTH burned like the blazes! So I decided on the total immersion baptism method to apply the water seal. I poured the 2 gallons of Behr on the canvas in a 5-gallon bucket, but it wasn't quite enough to totally immerse. So I added the gallon of Ace. The Ace had a strong kerosene smell, while the Behr smelled less (like naptha). Anyway, I strung it up in a tree and caught most of the drippings. I still had 1.6 gallons left, so it took about 1.4 gallons, including drippings I lost. I left it outside in moderate weather for 5 days. I took it down when it started raining and let it dry in the garage. I weighed it before the treatment and after. The weight gain on a 10 x 10 fly was 12 ounces, so almost of the hydrocarbon solvent evaporated away. When I took it down, it had no objectionable smell, only a slight pleasant cottonseed oil smell when sniffed up close. For the field test I used it at the Southwestern Regional Rendezvous (still in progress). Sunday night it was slowly raining, and the storm ended with a crescendo of lightning and heavy rain. The fly was snuggy dry until the storm attacked on two fronts - wind blowing the rain horizontally onto our feet, and a sheet of water flowing on the ground under the edges. We were reintroduced to the smell of wet wool. Fortunately the weather cleared and all our blankets were dry by just after noon. And a shinin' time was had by all. Iron Burner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mtnman1449 <Mtnman1449@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 19 Mar 1998 21:42:01 EST Lee-- I've been using my 10 x 10 canvas for over 15 years. Goes anywhere and you can make it into anything--diamond, lean to, stretchit between two trees or like I've often done out here in the stoney mountains, just roll up in my buffalo robe with the canvas on the outside and I can survive anything. Pat Surrena #1449 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donald A. Ricetti" <SEGUNDO@bigfoot.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Kalamazoo show Date: 19 Mar 1998 20:42:17 -0500 Yeh, I'm going to Kazoo. If you never have been there a word of advise, leave the woolies home, it gets powerfully warm in ther what with all the bodys and all. If you have ever been to the Eastern picture all them traders indoors, there you have it. Bear JFLEMYTH wrote: > Hello the net! > > Is any body else in the group planning on going to the Kalamazoo Antique Arms > and Pioneer Crafts show this week end? The guy I was going with had to > cancell on me, but I will still be there. Five buildings, all pre-1890's... > How could I pass up that?! > > Anyone who is familiar witht the show, are there any 'suttlers' there I should > make sure to look up? > > If anybody wants more info on the show, its sponsored by Yankee Doodle Muzzle > Loaders, Inc. There number is (616) 327-4557. > > John Fleming ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mtnman1449 <Mtnman1449@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware Date: 19 Mar 1998 21:54:26 EST The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly had an article on fur trade tents by Charlie Hanson several years back. Hold on a minute while I scan the listing of all the articles they wrote. . .Oh, here are a couple articles on oil cloths in the fur trade, done in 1988 Volume 24 issues 24.1 and 24.3. . .no where's that tent stuff I was looking for? Ah, here it is, -- 1980 Volume 16, issue 16.1. pSurrena #1449 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mtnman1449 <Mtnman1449@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware Date: 19 Mar 1998 22:00:21 EST Lee- as long as you have spent this months food money on stuff including a membership to the Museum of the fur trade, call the museum and get their list of all the articles published since Charlie started the Quarterly newsletter in 1965. Read, then order a bunch of the past issues with your favorite topics with next months food money. Charlie did great work, and it doesn't cost much to get. Two things happen then: first, you get smarter and have and begin to build an impressive library becoming incredibly smart like Tippets, and second, without food to eat, you kid become less of an expense and will hopefully learn to live off the land. Pat Surrena #1449 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ITWHEELER <ITWHEELER@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas and Oilcloth Date: 19 Mar 1998 23:04:02 EST thanks for the resipie big fella. ben waiting to do the same thing i have a 17 ft. teepee and set it up myself most of the time my forge is out side under a7x 8 fly. stuburn as i am im going to change to abig fly. sence ive logged on the network. a month ago i have got some good stuff thanks for the tips . iron tounge that walks forge wks. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ITWHEELER <ITWHEELER@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware Date: 19 Mar 1998 23:17:12 EST i have made one with three legs . have you got aforge you can use or barrow.take a good sheet metal fry pan and put thee riveted legs on and you got it its alittle hard to keep the legs frome pooking things if you can curl the feet up and sofen them a touch an pack it. iron tounge that walks forge wks. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio <JSeminerio@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Mailing In Date: 19 Mar 1998 23:37:15 EST Hey Web I actually did that. I went to the Mardi Gras Rendezvous in Lafeyette Loiusiana. I flew all my stuff in thru UPS. I always said it would make a great TV commercial how the guy in the khaki suit had to leave the truck and take a wagon in to make the delivery. Granted it was basically a show and tell, and not remote. But I swear I was not the guy that ordered the Domino's Pizza and got it delivered at Polarbear's Eastern. (but I think I know who did) watch your topknot the flying rendezvouser (only kidding) jseminerio ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware Date: 19 Mar 1998 22:37:01 -0700 At 10:00 PM 3/19/98 EST, you wrote: >Lee- as long as you have spent this months food money on stuff including a >membership to the Museum of the fur trade, call the museum and get their list >of all the articles published since Charlie started the Quarterly newsletter >in 1965. Read, then order a bunch of the past issues with your favorite >topics with next months food money. Charlie did great work, and it doesn't >cost much to get. ........ A while back, Charlie gave me permission to put said list of articles on the web - it's at: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/mftq.html It's pretty handy to be able to use your browser's search capability to find articles on topics of interest. Also on the page is the address to order the back issues from. Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 20 Mar 1998 03:44:16 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD53B2.74BD77A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Works for me also. Jon T ---------- : From: Mtnman1449 <Mtnman1449@aol.com> : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents : Date: Thursday, March 19, 1998 6:42 PM : : Lee-- I've been using my 10 x 10 canvas for over 15 years. Goes anywhere and : you can make it into anything--diamond, lean to, stretchit between two trees : or like I've often done out here in the stoney mountains, just roll up in my : buffalo robe with the canvas on the outside and I can survive anything. Pat : Surrena #1449 ------=_NextPart_000_01BD53B2.74BD77A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">Works for me also. Jon = T ---------- : From: Mtnman1449 <Mtnman1449@aol.com> : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents : Date: = Thursday, March 19, 1998 6:42 PM : : Lee-- I've been using my 10 = x 10 canvas for over 15 years. Goes anywhere and : you can make = it into anything--diamond, lean to, stretchit between two trees : or = like I've often done out here in the stoney mountains, just roll up in = my : buffalo robe with the canvas on the outside and I can survive = anything. Pat : Surrena #1449 </body></html> ------=_NextPart_000_01BD53B2.74BD77A0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" <allen@blueridge-ef.SAIC.COM> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Mailing In Date: 20 Mar 1998 08:29:54 -0500 JSeminerio wrote: But I swear I was not the guy that ordered the Domino's Pizza and got it delivered at Polarbear's Eastern. (but I think I know who did) I was there too! No pizza though. We were the guys that put the 65lb. streamship round on the fire for days. People would come straight to the fire by following their nose and exclaim that they had been smelling it all thru camp. We'd invite them to take a piece and later there'd be a jug or loaf of bread, etc set by the fire and we wouldn't know who left it. Great folks these buckskiiners! Did you happen to jump in the stock tank down in the woods? After I did, I thought I was a girl for a couple days! Brrrrrrr. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE <LODGEPOLE@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware Date: 20 Mar 1998 09:04:48 EST In a message dated 98-03-17 10:20:47 EST, you write: << As ya'll have probably gathered, I am in the process of replacing gear with documented equipment. It's a fun, if expensive process. I'm just hoping that the Missus don't toss me out afore I'm done. She mutters a lot about expensive toys, but hasn't yet reached for the skillet! >> I think more than just a few of us can relate to all of this Lee. It's a trap many of us fall into, me included. I, along with the guys camp with, am in the same process as well. Good luck and do as I have done.....Hide the skillet! Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: wetshirt@juno.com (David k Bostrom) Date: 20 Mar 1998 08:40:56 -0600 Old fox, How does one get on that muzzleloaders mailing list (MML) I am surly interested. A friend of mine is trying to restore an original smoothbore, it is of possibly german origin, the only marks on it are as follows; 1.) directly in front of the hammer hole, on the lock plate is the name D..NEPPES The fist "E" in Neppes may be an "I" do to wear I'm not sure 2.) there are "A's" on the inside of the lock plate and on the heads of most of the internal screws These are the only clues Any help would be appreciated Many thanks Wet Shirt #1645 Aux Ailments de Pays! _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing <SWcushing@aol.com> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Capote oxymorons (longish) Date: 20 Mar 1998 12:23:24 EST In a message dated 3/19/98 2:57:26 PM, you wrote: << Malhiot repeatedly calls Natives 'cra^bles' (especially when he's upset with them).>> Malhiot is actually trying to say "cry babies" in English....... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mstar176@wf.net (Basha Richey) Subject: MtMan-List: Lost Fork Date: 20 Mar 1998 14:49:53 +0100 "Capote Oxymoron, Sack Hats, and Effigy Hoods" A big Thanks, to everyone who contributed to the discuss'in of the above subjects. You certainly learned me a lot. Now that I've bean edge-a-macated on French an such, I've got one more problem with my cypherin. A couple of times when I was a cold trailing some folks by the names of Coulter, Potts, Henry, Clark and Lewis I've came to a place that they all call Three Forks. For the life of me it looks simple enough to cypher on one hand, without even taking your mokersons off. Every time I've been there, it's been same, the Jefferson runs into the Madison, ONE fork, an mile or so down the river the Gallatin runs in on the right, TWO forks. The way I sees, it's THREE RIVERS (maybe Four if'n you counts the Missouri), or TWO FORKS. I ain't bean able to find that third fork yet. Maybee it's another one of them moron hoo-doo's a lurking in the willers that's got me Bufflered. Howsomever, if you ever pass through that country, be on the lookout for that lost fork! A wait'n fer the green-up, Yellow Stone ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pamela Wheeler" <rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 20 Mar 1998 18:34:02 -0600 I smoked my 6by6 canvas with a pine fire and rubbed pine resin into it. The smoking just helps to keep it from being "sticky". It NEVER leaked! YellowFeather AMM # 251 ---------- > From: Henry B. Crawford <mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents > Date: Thursday, March 19, 1998 1:37 PM > > >I understand that it's the smoking that makes leather waterproof, does > >this work for canvas too? > > > > No. Smoking closes the pores in the skin. Canvas hath no pores. > > Best to get canvas that's been fire treated and waterproofed. It'll save > you a lot of misery later. > > Cheers, > HBC > > ***************************************** > Henry B. Crawford Curator of History > mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University > 806/742-2442 Box 43191 > FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum > ********** Opening Day, March 31!!! ********** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware Date: 21 Mar 1998 03:52:14 -0800 (PST) On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Mtnman1449 wrote: > Two things happen then: first, you get smarter and have > and begin to build an impressive library becoming incredibly smart like > Tippets, and second, without food to eat, you kid become less of an expense > and will hopefully learn to live off the land. Pat Surrena #1449 Pat A good idea on checking the back issues, Dean has a listing of the Quarterly at: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/mftq.html (it's printing out now... a leetle tiny for me old eyes though!) Getting smarter.... nah.... me lovely bride sez that's not the direction I generally move in :) As to the kids food money, if'n I could just get 'em to water the garden, feed the pigs and check the chickens on a somewhat consistent basis, instead of running a petting zoo, I could probably cut back on store bought food completey (except fer stuff that I caint grow on the side of an Idaho cliff), then I could afford some really important stuff like some new riding stock, or maybe even a new pair of spectacles <G> Appreciate the info! Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaslow <zaz@pacificnet.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Old German Smoothbore Date: 21 Mar 1998 09:27:37 -0800 (PST) Wet Shirt, I can't help you with restoring the smoothbore, but maybe can help you with the meaning of the "A's" on all the parts. I have an original 3rd model Brown Bess. It was shootable when I bought it, so it didn't have to be restored. Besides the usual Tower of London touch marks on the barrel and lock, it also has a very interesting mark carved into the stock, a Roman Numeral XVIII. At first, I thought it was a regiment mark or something like that, but about a year or so after aquiring it, Dave Conte and I took it apart to do some re-conditioning work. To our surprise we found that every part had the same XVIII carved in it. It was at that time we realized what it meant. This gun was made in 1792 or 1793. I was able to determine that from touch marks, the way the cock was made and comparing it to descriptions and pictures in a Brown Bess book that I have. Back then every gun was a custom made piece and they did not have assembly lines. In order to keep things straight, when they got the parts together to assemble a musket, they marked them with a common letter or number, so that if anything got mixed up, they would know which gun the part belonged to. It was just as simple as that. I think the "A" on every part is probably a way to keep the parts from getting mixed up with others being made at the same time. Also, is this smoothbore a military musket? If it is, that would make me believe even more what I have said since they made many military weapons at the same time. Also, to get on the Mountain Man list, just E-Mail Dean Rudy at drudy@xmission.com and tell him you want to be added to the list. Hope this helps. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 At 08:40 AM 3/20/98 -0600, you wrote: >Old fox, > How does one get on that muzzleloaders mailing list (MML) I am >surly interested. > A friend of mine is trying to restore an original smoothbore, it >is of possibly german origin, the only marks on it are as follows; >1.) directly in front of the hammer hole, on the lock plate is the name > D..NEPPES >The fist "E" in Neppes may be an "I" do to wear I'm not sure >2.) there are "A's" on the inside of the lock plate and on the heads of >most of the internal screws >These are the only clues >Any help would be appreciated >Many thanks >Wet Shirt #1645 >Aux Ailments de Pays! > >_____________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Deer hides & numbers Date: 21 Mar 1998 03:28:21 -0700 Dear Forest, There's no question that lion numbers are up and no question that lions can kill and eat lots of deer. It's interesting how how quickly it has become a popular theme in Utah for hunters to blame lions for the drop in deer numbers. Last fall as we encountered discouraged hunters who weren't seeing deer where they used to see many, almost everyone of them attributed the downward trend to lions. It seems sad that so many hunters are seeing loss of winter habitat, but so few are connecting the downward trend in deer population loss of habitat. You mentioned Browns Park, which is in one of the most remote corners of the State, but even Browns Park has a new subdivision on what used to be undeveloped winter range. I was in Browns park in January during a light snowstorm scouting for a campsite near the location of the old Fort Davy Crocket. The first thing next morning houndsmen who lived in the subdivision were out driving all the back roads with their hounds in the backs of their pickups, hoping to cut a fresh cat track. They didn't appear to have any luck and were back in the subdivision by lunch. It occurs to me that if we preserve the habitat it's a win-win for all concerned -- the deer, the deer hunters, the lions, and the lion hunters. But if we invest all our energy casing the cats while the land developers are gobbling up all the winter range then we all lose, except for the developers. Those of us who love the land can patiently weather the ups and downs of predator and prey cycles, but once the habitat is converted to other uses; the deer, the lions, and generations of hunters not yet born all lose out. Last winter I trapped predators on one of Utah's State Game Ranges that has traditionally been thought of as about the best mountain lion habitat in the State. One night, a lion killed and partially ate a coyote that I'd caught in a snare. Other than that, I didn't see any lion sign all season, and saw probably over a hundred deer and elk carcasses that had been eaten up by coyotes and fox. Most of those carcasses were form animals that had starved too death wintering on sunny south facing slope that were cover with cheatgrass where once sagegrush, rabbit brush, bitterbrush, and other browse had once covered those same slopes. Point is, we may compete with mountain lions to make meat this year, but whether our grandchildren can make meat 30 years from now doesn't have nearly as much to do with lions as is it does with our willingness to conserve wildlife habitat that we still have left to preserve. In my mind, the current healthy lion populations have become a dangerous distraction from the much greater threat of habitat loss. Dave T. -----Original Message----- > > >Manywounds wrote: > >> Winter kill is the number one cause of deer population decreases >> and always has been. Severe cold weather or large amounts of snow >> staying on the ground for weeks covering up their food supply are the >> main reason for drops in deer counts. Road kill numbers can be high >> along with coyote predation. > >Here in eastern Utah our deer's worst predator is the lion. We have an over >population lions which the farmers are now having problems with. Two >Muzzle loader hunts ago while hunting in Browns Park I came upon a secluded >spot of large junipers. In this almost tunnel like spot my partner and I >found 30 yearling buck skeletons, all apparent lion kills. The Fish and >wildlife has finally upped the Lion harvest for this area. > >Forrest Smouse #1691 >LaPoint, Utah > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Josh Swinehart <totwolf@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Museum of the fur trade Date: 22 Mar 1998 07:38:44 -0800 (PST) Would someone be so kind as to post the address for the Museum of the fur trade and membership costs? JS _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing <SWcushing@aol.com> Subject: MtMan-List: "Black Iron Frying Pans" Date: 22 Mar 1998 20:11:04 EST Henry, Spotted a couple nice "Black Iron" (heavy sheet metal?) frying pans in an antique store.....would these be acceptable for pre-1840? ..."Don't need no stinkin cast iron pans......." Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing <SWcushing@aol.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Cannon Balls Date: 22 Mar 1998 20:00:45 EST Hello the list, In a recent discussion of the fur trade, I mentioned that it was not uncommon for a large supply caravan headed to the spring rondy, to bring with them a field piece, (cannon) for protection and to impress the hell out of the locals. The question was raised......."did they have exploding cannon balls, or did they just shoot rocks and stuff?" Ah.....I dunno,...... and for that matter when and how did they make "exploding cannon balls?" Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing <SWcushing@aol.com> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Museum of the fur trade Date: 22 Mar 1998 19:41:41 EST In a message dated 3/22/98 12:31:51 PM, you wrote: <<Would someone be so kind as to post the address for the Museum of the fur trade and membership costs? JS >> Museum of Fur Trade PO Box 1276 Chadron, NE 69337 Membership is $10 US or $13 Canadian & foreign......also get a list of back issues of the "Quarterly"....good stuff! Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg <jal@cray.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Museum of the fur trade Date: 23 Mar 1998 08:37:49 -0600 Just happen to be writing a check out to join myself. Address is: The Museum of the Fur Trade 6321 Highway 20 Chadron, Nebraska 6937 Membership is $10 a year and includes free visitation and the Quarterly. Jim /`-_ Jim Lindberg |Les Voyageurs du Val du Chippewa { . }/ 724 East Grand Avenue | \ / Chippewa Falls, WI 54729 USA |Sweete water and light laughter, |___| http://reality.sgi.com/jal/ |Until we next meete. Go Gentle. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Black Iron Frying Pans" Date: 23 Mar 1998 09:38:43 -0600 (CST) >Henry, > >Spotted a couple nice "Black Iron" (heavy sheet metal?) frying pans in an >antique store.....would these be acceptable for pre-1840? ..."Don't need no >stinkin cast iron pans......." > >Steve Sheet iron was available. For the Rendezvous period, At least in this case, it's more a matter of styling than material. In the Southwest, sheet iron comales (griddles) were very common. Considering that you often see tipis at eastern gatherings (where, historically, they wouldn't be) black sheet iron frying pans shouldn't give you any trouble. The safe thing to do might be to make sure they don't have the insulated metal handles characteristic of late 19th century sheet iron pans. They should be as plain as possible. Some were made with with long handles, but there may have been some with shorter ones. Page 91 of Newmann and Kravic's _Collectors Encycl. of the American Revolution_ illustrates some sheet iron frying pans and spider-style pans used during the American Revolution. Such styles remained in common use through the middle years of the 19th century. Happy cooking! Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ********** Opening Day, March 31!!! ********** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cannon Balls Date: 23 Mar 1998 09:46:47 -0600 (CST) >Hello the list, > >In a recent discussion of the fur trade, I mentioned that it was not uncommon >for a large supply caravan headed to the spring rondy, to bring with them a >field piece, (cannon) for protection and to impress the hell out of the >locals. The question was raised......."did they have exploding cannon balls, >or did they just shoot rocks and stuff?" Ah.....I dunno,...... and for that >matter when and how did they make "exploding cannon balls?" > >Steve Well, we know they had exploding shells by the War of 1812. The "...bombs bursting in air..." that F. S. Key saw at Fort McHenry in 1814 were exploding shells. They would have had timing fuses also, as they did during the Rev. War. I think impact detenators came later. If General Ashley brought a cannon to the Rondy, he might have also transported supplies of shot. Certainly he carried powder. ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ********** Opening Day, March 31!!! ********** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Fisher <dfisher@sbceo.k12.ca.us> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cannon Balls Date: 23 Mar 1998 08:26:24 -0800 >The question was raised......."did they have exploding cannon balls, > or did they just shoot rocks and stuff?" Ah.....I dunno,...... and for that > matter when and how did they make "exploding cannon balls?" I have read accounts of the army using high explosive rounds against the Indians. There were a lot of different types of projectiles such a solid shot, cannister (grape shot), chain shot, bar shot, etc. High explosive rounds would not have been to effective against light cavalry such as the Indians because to get the most out of it you had to estimate the distance to the target and fuse the round for the proper time of flight so that it would explode very close to the target. No easy task for fast moving horsemen. Another option is to fuze the rounds for a known distance and wait for the enemy to come into range. These kind of rounds worked much better against massed troops at known distances. I'm just speculating here but I would think that cannister would be more effective. What you have is basically a giant point and shoot shotgun. I will keep my eye open for any references. I did read an inventory of equipment at Ft. Vancouver in the 1830's which included a case of hand grenades. I believe it was in Alexander Ross's book. Just what every mountain man should have in his possibles bag. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "P.D. Amschler" <buckskinner@mailcity.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Rendezvous in California Date: 23 Mar 1998 07:52:59 -0700 Does any one have info on rendezvous in the central to northern California. Get your FREE, private e-mail account at http://www.mailcity.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jack-scratch@juno.com (Richard D Heyen) Subject: MtMan-List: Re:"Black Iron Frying Pans" Date: 23 Mar 1998 12:08:54 EST If your talking about cast, pig iron, they would be appropriot. Also wrought Iron would be semi approprion, though I can't imagine why anyone would make wrought iron cook ware. Wrought iron is not as resistant to heat as pig iron is. Pig iron is very suseptable to concussive forces, otherwise it woul be much easier to make everything out of pig iron, and blacksmiths would have vanished in the mid 1500's. I don't realy know what you mean by heavy sheet metal, but everything I can think of that would fit that discription would only go back to about the civil war. Drew Heyen jack-scratch@juno.com On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 20:11:04 EST SWcushing <SWcushing@aol.com> writes: >Henry, > >Spotted a couple nice "Black Iron" (heavy sheet metal?) frying pans in >an >antique store.....would these be acceptable for pre-1840? ..."Don't >need no >stinkin cast iron pans......." > >Steve > > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pat Quilter" <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Cannon Balls Date: 23 Mar 1998 10:21:46 -0700 Re: Cannon Balls I'm no expert on cannons, but I'm fairly certain that the small pieces brought out by caravans or expeditions, shooting roughly golf-ball sized balls, used solid shot (as did the large army and naval guns until about the Civil War). Exploding shot (with fuse) was confined to mortars for a long time. I would presume that for demonstrations, a suitable stump or other heavy target was smashed by a solid ball, or they loaded it with grape shot (effectively, dozens of rifle-sized balls) and mowed down something dramatic. Such fire would be devastating to a massed charge. Since these guns take loads many, many times larger than a rifle load, the general report, recoil, and cloud of smoke would be impressive in itself. Maybe somebody who actually knows some of the facts could come in with more details. Pat Quilter ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Parks <kc7cnw@magick.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Sheet Iron Fry-pan Date: 23 Mar 1998 11:57:38 -0800 SWcushing wrote: > > Henry, > > Spotted a couple nice "Black Iron" (heavy sheet metal?) frying pans in an > antique store.....would these be acceptable for pre-1840? ..."Don't need no > stinkin cast iron pans......." > > Steve > Steve, your right! Those cast iron cooking aids are fantastic to cook with (love my old Dutch-Oven), but they are really heavy! They ain't made fer trekin'. It is tough to find a useable period (light weight) frying pan as they are collector items in most instances. There are a couple of types of sheet iron frying pans that can be found in second hand stores, etc. The most common is the light weight sheet steel that is made on a press. They have the double handle that is hollow in the middle, so you don't burn your hand (as easily) as the older models that had the straight solid handle. Then there are the harder to find models that are pressed using the old heavy sheet steel. After years of looking I ran into two of them...a 10 inch and an 8". They were together in a junk shop in Grants Pass, OR. I paid $4.00 for the pair! They were made of the heavier sheet steel and were in like new condition, except for the patina due to age. The difference to look for...is that the older ones going back to the "Period" were pressed or shaped by a blacksmith from a round piece of metal and the handle was attached with rivets....usually three. The later models were pressed with the handle being part of the cut out design, before pressing. Thirty years ago, I picked up a heavy weight sheet steel frying pan, but it had the later style pressed handle. I cut the handle off flush with the edge of the pan and installed a period style long straight handle from an old rusty piece of 1/8th inch flat iron about 1 inch wide and ten inches long. I flattened and widened one end on the forge, drilled three holes in it and the frying pan. I then used three copper rivets to attach the handle. For treking I think I would attach the handle with old period style soft iron (square) nuts & bolts, it would make packing it easier, just don't lose the nuts & bolts! I have made an original looking Comal this way also. It's very easy to do and works great on the fire. Trivits are nice, but I don't think anyone used them in the mountains. I think a Mountain Man's trivit was called a rock, hi, hi. Hope this helps you and gives you an idea of how to get something more period out of the newer made frying pans. Regards, _M_ Manywounds W ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Stewart <MedicineBear@Hawken54.sparks.nv.us> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous in California Date: 23 Mar 1998 17:19:32 -0800 Yup! Feather River Buckskinners Annual Rendezvous June 12, 13 & 14 1998 Bushway: 3 Legs 530-256-3941 Louderback's Black Powder Club 20th Anniversary Rendezvous April 10, 11 & 12 1998 Contact Terry: 530-275-6666 John: 530-223-3459 Those folks can tell you about their voo's and maybe others. Medicine Bear P.D. Amschler wrote: > Does any one have info on rendezvous in the central to northern California. > > Get your FREE, private e-mail > account at http://www.mailcity.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George and Donna Youngblood <youngbld@erols.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware Date: 23 Mar 1998 20:27:55 -0500 Lee Newbill wrote: > > On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Mtnman1449 wrote: > > Two things happen then: first, you get smarter and have > > and begin to build an impressive library becoming incredibly smart like > > Tippets, and second, without food to eat, you kid become less of an expense > > and will hopefully learn to live off the land. Pat Surrena #1449 > > Pat > > A good idea on checking the back issues, Dean has a listing of the > Quarterly at: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/mftq.html > (it's printing out now... a leetle tiny for me old eyes though!) > > Getting smarter.... nah.... me lovely bride sez that's not the direction I > generally move in :) > > As to the kids food money, if'n I could just get 'em to water the garden, > feed the pigs and check the chickens on a somewhat consistent basis, > instead of running a petting zoo, I could probably cut back on store > bought food completey (except fer stuff that I caint grow on the side of > an Idaho cliff), then I could afford some really important stuff like some > new riding stock, or maybe even a new pair of spectacles <G> > > Appreciate the info! > > Regards > > Lee Newbill > Viola, Idaho > email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu > Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage > http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html Dear Mountain Men, I regret to inform you that my husband is no longer with me. He died of cancer in September of 1997. I have enjoyed reading and learning from the "Mountain Man" list, however, if you would be so kind as to take my husbands name off of your list, I would appreciate it. To date, I don't know how to do this on my own and if anyone out there knows how to delete the "Mountain Man" list, please let me known. Weeping Heart, Donna ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "The Windhams" <windham@jps.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous in California Date: 24 Mar 1998 17:37:52 -0800 Ahoy! Amschler , There are a couple of places to try for Cal. Rondi's, both have list for up and down the state. They are : 1) http://www.ptw.com/~lattanze/home/blackhawk.html 2)http://www.netport.com/jharvill/ good luck and if'n ya hear of others b't let'n us know Rick ---------- > From: P.D. Amschler <buckskinner@mailcity.com> > To: hist_text@xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Rendezvous in California > Date: Monday, March 23, 1998 6:52 AM > > Does any one have info on rendezvous in the central to northern California. > > > > Get your FREE, private e-mail > account at http://www.mailcity.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing <SWcushing@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sheet Iron Fry-pan Date: 23 Mar 1998 22:01:01 EST In a message dated 3/23/98 6:33:08 PM, you wrote: <<The most common is the light weight sheet steel that is made on a press. They have the double handle that is hollow in the middle, so you don't burn your hand (as easily) as the older models that>> Thanks boys...... The pans I found in Redmond, OR are of the newer type but will dig around more for the older models....all kinds of good stuff in them antique stores! Great idea about redoing the handles, and for about $5 bucks a piece, I'll do it..... Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" <allen@blueridge-ef.SAIC.COM> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sheet Iron Fry-pan Date: 24 Mar 1998 07:51:41 -0500 Steve, I took one of the hollow handled frying pans of 6" diam and cut off the handle about an inch from the edge of the pan. Then I had a handle made from a piece of scrap steel shaped with a squared hole in the one end and I attached the other end to the pan with a small brass hinge and brass pins. The reason for the squared hole is that it won't spin on the green stick when you have weight in the pan. This is a big consideration when your on short rations and don't know where your next meal might come from! Just cut the stick with a squared end and fit into the handle. Your supper won't end up in the fire or the dirt! With the $2 price of the pan and about a dollar for the hinge, I think I did pretty well. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sheet Iron Fry-pan Date: 24 Mar 1998 08:28:42 -0600 (CST) >Then there are the harder to find models >that are pressed using the old heavy sheet steel. After years of looking >I ran into two of them...a 10 inch and an 8". They were made >of the heavier sheet steel and were in like new condition, except for >the patina due to age. The difference to look for...is that the older >ones going back to the "Period" were pressed or shaped by a blacksmith >from a round piece of metal and the handle was attached with >rivets....usually three. This is the type I have. Mine is about 6 or 8". It's my personal period trekking/modern backpacking pan, and it weighs very little and fits in my haversack. They even have the patina from use. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ********** Opening Day, March 31!!! ********** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" <allen@blueridge-ef.SAIC.COM> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sheet Iron Fry-pan Date: 24 Mar 1998 07:51:41 -0500 Steve, I took one of the hollow handled frying pans of 6" diam and cut off the handle about an inch from the edge of the pan. Then I had a handle made from a piece of scrap steel shaped with a squared hole in the one end and I attached the other end to the pan with a small brass hinge and brass pins. The reason for the squared hole is that it won't spin on the green stick when you have weight in the pan. This is a big consideration when your on short rations and don't know where your next meal might come from! Just cut the stick with a squared end and fit into the handle. Your supper won't end up in the fire or the dirt! With the $2 price of the pan and about a dollar for the hinge, I think I did pretty well. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AWarn10378 <AWarn10378@aol.com> Subject: MtMan-List: History reinactments Date: 25 Mar 1998 17:19:25 EST I am searching for dates of historical reinactments in Michigan, Ohio, Indiana and Kentucky. I am also searching for information about becoming a reinactor. Hope you can help. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "greg cullins" <gcullins@spiritone.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark Date: 25 Mar 1998 18:08:57 -0800 Recently (January 1998), I purchased a Model 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle, 54 caliber for "$399.00" from Deer Creek Productions. Except for a very small wood chip near the patch box, this EuroArms rifle is a very fine "short" rifle. The Rifle came mail order in a Stones Mountain box and wrapped tight. Other companies prices range from $545.00 to $799.00. I still feel my purchase was a steal. The metal ramrod has a removable brass tip (cone) for the attachment of cleaning jags, etc. I've only fired Patched Round Ball (.530dia) as there are "eight (8)" rifling in the bore. - .54 caliber Minie or REAL bullet are too long and will add undo pressure and a tumbling effect to path of the projectile and, could slap the target sideways. Making you wonder "What Cause That?" I have fired it a total of seven time - with a "10 Ring Bullseye" each time at 100 yards. As for accouterments: Members wore various types of clothing. Not all members were from the Military, therefore those Civilian Employees were not restricted in dress. Deer/Elk Buckskin were the norm. Most of these jackets and pants were made either by members of the group or, by the MANDAN Indians of North Dakota. The Leather or Cloth (cotton/wool) Caped Frontier Flock (jacket) patterns can be found through Eagle View Patterns at Amazon Vinegar & Pickling Works Drygoods 2218 E. 11th Street Davenport, IA 52803-3760 - Phone: 1-800-798-7979 (they take Visa/Master Card over the phone). This information was provided by employees of Fort Vancouver, Vancouver, Washington USA. C and D Jarnagin Company, Corinth, Mississippi, provides an excellent catalog for the 1800 period clothing - phone 601-287-4977. Shirts were cotton or wool, if there worn at all (the caped leather flock is quite warm-when on the move). If you are doing a Military impression: The military Tri-corner hats had a shorter brim then the civilian style. Colors varied - black, brown or a tan/sand. Others wore the Davy Crocket Style round raccoon tail cap (with/without the tail). Powder Horns had a One (1) inch leaf spring spout on the pouring end with the letters US carved on the side of the horn. This type of leaf spring spout can be found in the currently produced small (3 1/2 " - .31 caliber) brass/copper eagle powder flask. If you have any questions, please contact me at Greg L. Cullins Post Office Box 20992 Portland, Oregon 97294 or gcullins@spiritone.com Good Hunting/Good Luck On To the Pacific and Fort Clatsop ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ITWHEELER <ITWHEELER@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sheet Iron Fry-pan Date: 25 Mar 1998 00:57:07 EST again another one of those million doller practicle solutions where do you get all these good ones thanks again. iron tounge ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tigrbo1 <tigrbo1@ibm.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cannon Balls Date: 25 Mar 1998 20:33:29 -0800 Hi Steve, SWcushing wrote: >The question was raised......."did they have exploding cannon balls, >or did they just shoot rocks and stuff?" I am not an expert on artillary, but exploding cannon balls have been around sense before the RevWar. >and for that matter when and how did they make "exploding cannon balls?" Exploding ordnance like cannonballs were cast hollow, then filled with black powder and corked up with the fuse. To fire the projectile, you load the ball with the fuse toward the breech. When the cannon is fired the fuse is automaticlly lighted. The length of the fuse determins when the ball will explode. During the RevWar opposing sides would try to put out the fuse of a cannonball that landed in a fort and did not explode due to too long a fuse. If the ball was of a size they could use, they would re-fuse the ball and fire it back. Best regards, Terry Smith ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Les Chaffin <chaflesl@isu.edu> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: History reinactments Date: 25 Mar 1998 22:11:17 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A9D9370266D2A3E620770608 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is a nice doin's over by Jackson, Ohio over the Memorial Weekend. I think they are still doing it it's been a few years since I was there. Les AWarn10378 wrote: > I am searching for dates of historical reinactments in Michigan, Ohio, Indiana > and Kentucky. I am also searching for information about becoming a reinactor. > Hope you can help. --------------A9D9370266D2A3E620770608 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Les Chaffin Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Les Chaffin n: Chaffin;Les email;internet: chaflesl@isu.edu title: ISU Twin Falls Computer Center Manager x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------A9D9370266D2A3E620770608-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Les Chaffin <chaflesl@isu.edu> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark Date: 25 Mar 1998 22:13:58 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2C2D7DB4BEA05200139A5024 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greg, Do you have an address for Deer Creek? Les greg cullins wrote: > Recently (January 1998), I purchased a Model 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle, > 54 caliber for "$399.00" from Deer Creek Productions. > > Except for a very small wood chip near the patch box, this EuroArms > rifle is a very fine "short" rifle. The Rifle came mail order in a Stones > Mountain box and wrapped tight. Other companies prices range from $545.00 > to $799.00. I still feel my purchase was a steal. The metal ramrod has a > removable brass tip (cone) for the attachment of cleaning jags, etc. I've > only fired Patched Round Ball (.530dia) as there are "eight (8)" rifling in > the bore. - .54 caliber Minie or REAL bullet are too long and will add > undo pressure and a tumbling effect to path of the projectile and, could > slap the target sideways. Making you wonder "What Cause That?" I have > fired it a total of seven time - with a "10 Ring Bullseye" each time at 100 > yards. > > As for accouterments: > > Members wore various types of clothing. Not all members were from the > Military, therefore those Civilian Employees were not restricted in dress. > > Deer/Elk Buckskin were the norm. Most of these jackets and pants were made > either by members of the group or, by the MANDAN Indians of North Dakota. > > The Leather or Cloth (cotton/wool) Caped Frontier Flock (jacket) patterns > can be found through Eagle View Patterns at Amazon Vinegar & Pickling Works > Drygoods 2218 E. 11th Street Davenport, IA 52803-3760 - Phone: > 1-800-798-7979 (they take Visa/Master Card over the phone). This > information was provided by employees of Fort Vancouver, Vancouver, > Washington USA. > > C and D Jarnagin Company, Corinth, Mississippi, provides an excellent > catalog for the 1800 period clothing - phone 601-287-4977. > > Shirts were cotton or wool, if there worn at all (the caped leather flock > is quite warm-when on the move). > > If you are doing a Military impression: The military Tri-corner hats had a > shorter brim then the civilian style. Colors varied - black, brown or a > tan/sand. Others wore the Davy Crocket Style round raccoon tail cap > (with/without the tail). > > Powder Horns had a One (1) inch leaf spring spout on the pouring end with > the letters US carved on the side of the horn. This type of leaf spring > spout can be found in the currently produced small (3 1/2 " - .31 caliber) > brass/copper eagle powder flask. > > > If you have any questions, please contact me at > > Greg L. Cullins > Post Office Box 20992 > Portland, Oregon > 97294 > or > gcullins@spiritone.com > > Good Hunting/Good Luck > On To the Pacific and Fort Clatsop --------------2C2D7DB4BEA05200139A5024 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Les Chaffin Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Les Chaffin n: Chaffin;Les email;internet: chaflesl@isu.edu title: ISU Twin Falls Computer Center Manager x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------2C2D7DB4BEA05200139A5024-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Parks <kc7cnw@magick.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: 1803 Rifle Date: 25 Mar 1998 22:15:43 -0800 greg cullins wrote: > > Recently (January 1998), I purchased a Model 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle, > 54 caliber for "$399.00" from Deer Creek Productions. I've > only fired Patched Round Ball (.530dia) as there are "eight (8)" rifling in > the bore. - .54 caliber Minie or REAL bullet are too long and will add > undo pressure and a tumbling effect to path of the projectile and, could > slap the target sideways. Making you wonder "What Cause That?" I have > fired it a total of seven time - with a "10 Ring Bullseye" each time at Most likely, you have 1 in 48 rifling for round ball. You need a faster twist for longer bullets. 1 in 66" will usually straighten out your keyholers......."That's the Cause". She sure seem's to shoot real good with the 530's, that you mentioned, sounds to me like a "Keeper"! Continued good luck with her Greg. Regards, _M_ Manywounds W W ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tigrbo1 <tigrbo1@ibm.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: History reinactments Date: 25 Mar 1998 22:36:44 -0800 AWarn10378 wrote: > I am searching for dates of historical reinactments in Michigan, >Ohio, Indiana and Kentucky. I am also searching for information about >becoming a reinactor.Hope you can help. Greetings, First off, whats your first name? Just exactlly what kind of info are you looking for in regards to becoming a reenactor? Whats your time period, location, vocation, age, gender, area of interest, ect.? Best regards, Terry Smith ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware Date: 26 Mar 1998 08:47:19 -0600 (CST) >Hallo Again > >Most of ya'll will be happy to learn that I've just spent me childrens >food money for the month on subscriptions to both the NW Brigade Club >Quarterly, and the Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly. Also, I finally >recieved my very own personal copy of Russell's "Firearms, Traps, & >Tools of the MM" (the Univ of Idaho can now have theirs back<G>) > >Which means I'll spend more time reading, and less pestering my more >knowledgeble cyberfriends. No, actually, now you'll be informing us on what you've learned. :-) Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ********** LIVING HISTORY IS LIFE! ********** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J.F.Bailey" <JFB@novell.uidaho.edu> Subject: MtMan-List: mountain man show Date: 26 Mar 1998 08:49:18 PST Mountain Man Show - March 28-April 4 North Fork Framing 235 Johnson Orofino, Idaho FEATURING: Muzzleloaders Plunder Bronze Sculpture John Clymer Prints Gold Panning demonstrations Mountain Men in traditional costumes Primitive Shelter display Artist & Mountain Men Saturday March 28 10:00 AM - 5:00 PM Arts and Displays through April 4 !0:00 AM - 5:30 PM Closed Sunday & Monday ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Fisher <dfisher@sbceo.k12.ca.us> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: 1803 Rifle Date: 26 Mar 1998 16:05:50 -0800 Dave Parks wrote: > Most likely, you have 1 in 48 rifling for round ball. You > need a faster twist for longer bullets. 1 in 66" will usually straighten > out your keyholers......."That's the Cause". I think maybe you got that a little backwards or I'm reading it wrong. 1 in 66" for round balls and 1 in 48" for miniballs or elongated type bullets. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Fisher <dfisher@sbceo.k12.ca.us> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cannon Balls Date: 26 Mar 1998 16:10:25 -0800 The length of the fuse determins when the ball will explode. During the RevWar opposing sides would try to put out the fuse of a cannonball that landed in a fort and did not explode due to too long a fuse. If the ball was of a size they could use, they would re-fuse the ball and fire it back. --- How would you like have that duty written into your job description? Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain man show Date: 26 Mar 1998 17:06:44 -0600 (CST) >Mountain Man Show - March 28-April 4 > >North Fork Framing > 235 Johnson Orofino, Idaho What better place for it! Right at the front door of the Selway. WAUGH!!! HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ********** LIVING HISTORY IS LIFE! ********** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Parks <kc7cnw@magick.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: 1803 Twist Date: 26 Mar 1998 21:23:32 -0800 Dennis, you are right...I had it right in my mind, then wrote it down wrong......"That was the Cause"! One turn in a shorter length is always faster.....but sometimes my mind runs at a slower twist. Thanks, _M_ Manywounds W ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JFLEMYTH <JFLEMYTH@aol.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Deer Creek address Date: 27 Mar 1998 08:01:13 EST I just bought a gun through Wilderness Rifle Works, (part of Deer Creek). I am impressed with it so far, but am still waiting on a chance to put it through the paces. I do know they have great customer service and unbeatable prices. Still, in all their catalogs, I haven't seen the Harper's Ferry. If they are still making it, please let me know! Their address is: Deer Creek P.O. box 97 Waldron, Indiana 46182 (765) 525-6181 (Note: this is their new area code after changing from 317) Hope this helps. John Fleming ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dale Nelson <dnelson@wizzards.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cannon Balls Date: 26 Mar 1998 22:17:23 -0800 Dennis Fisher wrote: > > >The question was raised......."did they have exploding cannon balls, yes they did, but I can't place where I read it. Explosive cannon balls were invented by a British army officer, a major I believe, Major Schrapnel invented them. They were first used in combat by the British Navy against the Russians with great effect but I can't remember the date. if anyone is really interested I'll try to find it. > > I have read accounts of the army using high explosive rounds against They were not high explosive, that had not been invented yet. Not even by the Civil War were explosive shells high explosive. They were loaded with black powder, and the shell -- hollow balls loaded with powder were called shell, like in the "Charge of the Light Brigade", "Stormed at with shot and shell, Boldly they rode and well" --- was loaded with the fuse pointing out the barrel. Fire coming around the ball when the gun was fired lit the fuse. They burst into from two to several large pieces, usually three or four pieces of schrapnel, named for the major. > Indians. There were a lot of different types of projectiles such a > solid shot, cannister (grape shot), chain shot, bar shot, etc. Shot is a solid iron ball. A 12 pound cannon fired a 12 lb. solid iron ball. Cannister and grape are not the same. Cannister is a can of lead or iron balls fired to hit low in front of advancing troops, breaking the can open and bouncing said balls through the ranks. A stand of grape is made up of larger iron balls that are stacked on a plate around a bolt, and when the stack is finished another plate is placed on top and a nut screws down and tightens the entire thing, holding them together. Cannister would be more like bird shot, grape like buck shot. And yes there was chain and bar shot, plus langridge which was scrap iron. The navy used these against the riggin' of the enemy ship. > explosive rounds would not have been to effective against light cavalry Why not, the Russians kicked the crap out of the Light Brigade at Bella Clava -- if nothing else it would tend to stampede Indian horses not accoustomed to shell fire. > an inventory of equipment at Ft. Vancouver in the 1830's which included > a case of hand grenades. The Bonhomme Richard was sinking when a marine in the fighting tops on board the Bonhomme Richard dropped a grenade into the hold of the Serapis, setting off open powder on the gun deck, and causing the British captian to strike his colors. This of John Paul Jones "I have not yet begun to fight" fame. That happend on Sept 23, 1877 I think. I know the first wheels across South Pass were a cannon with a fur brigade, but I don't think it was common. Also the boats on the Missouri had swivel guns that could be considered cannon. They shot about a one inch ball. Fremont in (again I think) 1846 fired one shot from his 12 pounder to warn Indians who he thought were threatening. He fired and explosive round that burst out over the Klamath Marsh. That's the only cannon shot at Indians that I know about until the Indian wars of the late 1800's. I think there were more on the Santa Fe trail than on the Upper Missouri trade, but I'm not well read on the Santa Fe trade. Dale Nelson dnelson@wizzards.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Philip Alexander <kd4rfa@mindspring.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: 1803 Rifle Date: 27 Mar 1998 07:31:26 -0500 1 in 20" or 21" for a target rifle. -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, March 26, 1998 7:06 PM Dave Parks wrote: > Most likely, you have 1 in 48 rifling for round ball. You > need a faster twist for longer bullets. 1 in 66" will usually straighten > out your keyholers......."That's the Cause". I think maybe you got that a little backwards or I'm reading it wrong. 1 in 66" for round balls and 1 in 48" for miniballs or elongated type bullets. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CT OAKES <CTOAKES@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: History reinactments Date: 27 Mar 1998 09:09:44 EST << AWarn10378 wrote: > I am searching for dates of historical reinactments in Michigan, >Ohio, Indiana and Kentucky. I am also searching for information about >becoming a reinactor.Hope you can help. >> The most complete listing is in: Smoke & Fire News PO Box 166 Grand Rapids, OH 43522 419-832-0303 Subscription is $18 per year and well worth it if you plan to spend a lot of your time in any aspect of this hobby. They cover all periods. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: 1803 Rifle Date: 27 Mar 1998 08:18:56 -0600 Right you are Dennis. Good catch! Lanney Ratcliff rat@htcomp.net -----Original Message----- >Dave Parks wrote: > >> Most likely, you have 1 in 48 rifling for round ball. You >> need a faster twist for longer bullets. 1 in 66" will usually straighten >> out your keyholers......."That's the Cause". > >I think maybe you got that a little backwards or I'm reading it wrong. >1 in 66" for round balls and 1 in 48" for miniballs or elongated type >bullets. > > Dennis > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cannon Balls Date: 27 Mar 1998 08:28:57 -0600 (CST) >The length of the fuse determins when the ball will explode. During the RevWar >opposing sides would try to put out the fuse of a cannonball that landed in a >fort and did not explode due to too long a fuse. If the ball was of a size >they could use, they would re-fuse the ball and fire it back. > >--- How would you like have that duty written into your job description? Ordinance specialist?? It's been done. HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ********** LIVING HISTORY IS LIFE! ********** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Carpenter Family <kcarpenter@bigbear.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Green River knife Date: 27 Mar 1998 08:38:32 +0000 Dear friends, I found a treasure, I think, I hope. I found, in an antique shop, what I believe to be an original Russell, Green River knife. It is stamped, not etched(sp?), Russell Green River Works (and I just cut myself with it, it is very sharp). Russell is underlined from after the capital R to the last L and Green River Works is underneath, all in caps. The blade is 11 3/4" from the hilt to the tip and the handle is 5 7/16". The handle is affixed with three brass cutler's rivets. On the handle is stamped "BINELL BROS", I think. Part of it is worn. I assume "Binell Bros" is either the company that affixed the handle, or the store that sold it, or both. Anyone have any knowlwdge of this? I am bleeding all over the keys. Off to make a sheath for it now. Thanks, Ken C (most call me Carp or Carpy unless they are mad at me) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WIDD-Tim Austin (WIDD-Tim Austin) <AustinT@silltcmd-smtp.army.mil> Subject: MtMan-List: Green River Knife Date: 27 Mar 1998 15:02:41 -0600 Sounds like a good find, however.... All the originals that I have seen, granted not that many, and all in the vaults of several museums have the handle attached with 5 small pins. The 3 rivets seem to date the knife to a later time period. I am sure it is still a good knife. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox <ThisOldFox@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Green River knife Date: 27 Mar 1998 17:48:49 EST Carp writes: > I found, in an antique shop, what > I believe to be an original Russell, Green River knife. It is stamped, > not etched(sp?), Russell Green River Works (and I just cut myself with > it, it is very sharp). Russell is underlined from after the capital R > to the last L and Green River Works is underneath, all in caps. The > blade is 11 3/4" from the hilt to the tip and the handle is 5 7/16". I also picked up a Green River knife at a flea market. Mine is a skinner. Mine has: J.R. RUSSEL & CO. GREEN RIVER WORKS stamped on the blade in CAPS, and there is a faint diamond beneath the printing. It has been re-hafted and the scales are held on with 5 pins. It shows minor pitting on the blade and the tang tapers to almost nothing at the rear. I'm aware that these blades are still made, but one or both of us may be winners or losers as the case may be. I win anyhow, cause I only gave 3 bucks for mine. OldFox ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MIA3WOLVES <MIA3WOLVES@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: History reinactments Date: 27 Mar 1998 20:22:31 EST NMLRA; June 13 - 21, Friendship, Indiana. Has a great primitive area. \(812) 667-5131 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sommer J. Smouse" <smouse@ubtanet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Islanders in the Mtns Date: 27 Jan 1998 20:05:18 -0700 I have hear that Pacific Islanders were brought in to work in the fur trade. Where can I find a reference for this. I know they weren't called by the names we know them by todat, what were they called. Thanks Forrest Smouse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn <jc60714@navix.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Burglary Date: 27 Mar 1998 21:08:15 -0600 Washtahay- sometime in the past few days, I had some stuff stolen from my garage. Rondyvoo related stuff seems to have consisted of: 14' diamond fly 8' square ground cloth 4 pt HBC blanket (candy stripe pattern) Capote-white w/black stripe (Whitney blanket). Sized real large-I am about 6'4" and have a 50" chest. No hood, pockets on each side. Sewn with linen thread. All of the above was stuffed in an OD green duffle bag. Also taken was over 200 bullet moulds (mostly for suppository guns) packed in 7.62 ammo cans. If ya see someone who doesn't fit in trying to sell this stuff, I would appreciate a note. Thanks LongWalker c. du B. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: 1803 Rifle Date: 27 Mar 1998 23:24:37 EST there has been 5 or 6 posting on the 1803 italian harpers ferry copy seems that not many people know much about muzzle loading rifles and accuracy and working up a load, and just plain getting one to shoot properly. i have built several and have restored even more. i don't want to be snide or say anything out of place but.????????? an italian production gun that will hold the 10 ring the first 7 shots out of the barrel at a hundred yds is a wonderment to me. it may shoot good but????? I have been shooting matches for over 30 years and have won more of them than i feel i should have both offhand and from the bench, this includes several at friendship at the national championships. I would highly suggest that all of you that are discussing the twist and etc set down and do some basic reading. first on the list i suggest "The muzzle loading Cap lock rifle" by ned roberts. the next i would suggest is "Muzzle loading shooting and winning with the champions" can be purchased from the NMLRA. I can go on and on if you wish but truly believe these two will give you the best basics on rifles twists, working up a load and actual shooting. this is either flint or percussion that i am speaking of. i have sit back and read the input provided and think why are they giving such info. I have won a lot of hundred yard matches with scores from 40 to 49 and usually there is 2 or 3 10 and then a couple of those OOPS that brings down the score with At least one hang fire and or 3 flinches included. a guy that will shoot a 50 at a 100 yds with a muzzle loading rifle right out of the box has either one or 3 things. 1. Darn lucky--- 2. a outstanding shot 3. owns a muzzle loading rifle built by the big maker with lazar guided round balls which can never miss the 10 ring. the key holing of the bullets can be caused from many things that i could probably write at least 10 pages on or about, and twist is not one of them that i would start with. please check out the above suggested reading and if you have any questions please feel free to contact me OFFLINE or give me a call and we will discuss getting a muzzle loader to shoot with round ball or slugs-- I have three slug guns that i shoot with 2 being originals. LIST PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR MY HASTY AND OVERZEALOUS INPUT: MICHAEL PIERCE 854 GLENFIELD DR PALM HARBOR FLORIDA 34684 1-813-771-1815 E-MAIL: HAWKNEST4@JUNO.COM WEB SITE: http://members.tripod.com/HAWKNEST4/index.html On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 07:31:26 -0500 Philip Alexander <kd4rfa@mindspring.com> writes: >1 in 20" or 21" for a target rifle. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Dennis Fisher [SMTP:dfisher@sbceo.k12.ca.us] >Sent: Thursday, March 26, 1998 7:06 PM >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: 1803 Rifle > >Dave Parks wrote: > >> Most likely, you have 1 in 48 rifling for round ball. You >> need a faster twist for longer bullets. 1 in 66" will usually >straighten >> out your keyholers......."That's the Cause". > >I think maybe you got that a little backwards or I'm reading it wrong. > >1 in 66" for round balls and 1 in 48" for miniballs or elongated type >bullets. > > Dennis > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lester Ross <lross@bigfoot.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Islanders in the Mtns Date: 28 Mar 1998 09:33:38 -0800 <HTML> <BODY TEXT="#000000" BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF" LINK="#0000EE" VLINK="#008000" ALINK="#FF0000"> Among others, the Hudson's Bay Company, Western Department utilized Sandwich Islanders (i.e., Hawaiian Islanders or Kanakas) to work at Fort Vancouver (Vancouver, WA). They resided in a village, Kanaka Village, west of the 1829-1860 stockade, along with French-Canadian, Iroquois, and other Native American servants and family members. These Kanakas were used extensively as farm laborers, with a few used as personal servants. Little has been published in mainstream articles or books on the history of these individuals. A couple of works which provide more extensive information include: Hussey, John A. 1957 The History of Fort Vancouver and its Physical Structure. Washington State Historical Society, Tacoma. Kardas, Susan 1971 "The People Bought This and the Clatsop Became Rich.": A View of Nineteenth Century Fur Trade Relationships on the Lower Columbia between Chinookan Speakers, Whites, and Kanakas. Ph.D. dissertation. Department of Anthropology, Bryn Mawr College, Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania. The site of Kanaka Village has been the focus of numerous archaeological excavations. For a more complete listing of reports discussing this research, see the web site on the historical archaeology of Fort Vancouver at: <A HREF="http://www.spiretech.com/~lester/fova/historical/historical.htm">http://www.spiretech.com/~lester/fova/historical/historical.htm</A> LAR </BODY> </HTML> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Green River Knife Date: 28 Mar 1998 13:13:28 EST check out the blade a lot or most of them were hand forged and some will show forge marks. sometimes the forge marks were ground off. a lot of the later ones IE those made from 1930 -present some of the marks are etched and a few are stamped. Atlanta cutlery has some good copies and they even hold a good edge. a lot of people usto buy them as butcher knives and a few meat packing places get them for skinners. I thought i found one last fall that was original until i looked at the blade and found that it was not forged and it didn't have the 5 pins, only the 3 main rivits. the pins usually are a good clue. they are there besides the 3 rivits. you still have to look close because some of the early ones made in chicago have the 5 pins. a hardware supplier out of chicago usto make and supply them. THEY MADE A GOOD COPY IN THE 1920 THRU 1940'S. tHEY EVEN STAMPED IT GREEN RIVER. We usto pick up the copies of the skinner and the strait blade sticker at friendship for about $2.00 to $5.00 several years ago and use them for prizes at blanket shoots. Atlanta Cutlery usto have a booth there, and sell all types of blades, some with handles and some without. I gave a old green river type skinner and a beaded scabbard to a close friend ( Dan Anderson with a AMM # less than 100==== he's in "who's who in buckskins) and after mutch deliberating about the knife he decided along with a few others that they felt that it was an original green river. It was the second Green river that he had ever owned. according to him also check the handle size. some are a little smaller than the ones made after 1900 for some reason. almost have to have a old one and a new one to compare and to note similarities to a untrained eye. the green river skinner even a newer one looks very period in a beaded sheeth or a good tack sheeth, made with good original type brass tacks. I also totally concur with oldfoxes comments RE green river knives. if the price is right it's a darn good find and a very usable knife. "Hawk" michael pierce E-mail: hawksnest4@juno.com On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:02:41 -0600 WIDD-Tim Austin (WIDD-Tim Austin) <AustinT@silltcmd-smtp.army.mil> writes: >Sounds like a good find, however.... > >All the originals that I have seen, granted not that many, and all in >the >vaults of several museums have the handle attached with 5 small pins. >The 3 rivets seem to date the knife to a later time period. > >I am sure it is still a good knife. > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: History reinactments Date: 28 Mar 1998 13:13:28 EST best make your reservations early and get there early to set up or you might be banished to the overflow area. check out their web site on the computer. can be located by using the key words: NMLRA, muzzleloading, black powder--- these will also give you some other interesting sites. the NMLRA site even has some goos articles and some good links "Hawk" michael pierce e-mail hawknest4@juno.com On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 20:22:31 EST MIA3WOLVES <MIA3WOLVES@aol.com> writes: >NMLRA; June 13 - 21, Friendship, Indiana. Has a great primitive area. >\(812) >667-5131 > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Parks <kc7cnw@wmni.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Keyholing Date: 28 Mar 1998 10:35:21 -0800 Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion, mine and 95% of the gunsmiths I've worked with over the past 43 years, seem to agree that the number one reason a bullet, be it a minie or a Nosler Partition, keyholes in flight, is because of the WRONG TWIST for the the length of the bullet. The longer the bullet, the faster the twist. That's why a 6.5 M.S. has such a fast twist. It has a very long bullet that looks like a submarine and a shorter bullet in the same caliber does not shoot as well. For instance, a standard 30-06 rifle twist is centered around a 160 grain bullet. It is difficult to get the .30 cal. 110 grn. to shoot a decent group. This has been my experience over the years. Regards, _M_ Manywounds W ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Burglary Date: 28 Mar 1998 17:35:38 -0600 Sorry to hear about your loss. What part of the country did this crime occur? -----Original Message----- >Washtahay- > sometime in the past few days, I had some stuff stolen from my >garage. Rondyvoo related stuff seems to have consisted of: > >14' diamond fly >8' square ground cloth >4 pt HBC blanket (candy stripe pattern) >Capote-white w/black stripe (Whitney blanket). Sized real large-I am about >6'4" and have a 50" chest. No hood, pockets on each side. Sewn with linen >thread. > >All of the above was stuffed in an OD green duffle bag. > Also taken was over 200 bullet moulds (mostly for suppository guns) >packed in 7.62 ammo cans. > > If ya see someone who doesn't fit in trying to sell this stuff, I >would appreciate a note. >Thanks >LongWalker c. du B. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Islanders in the Mtns Date: 28 Mar 1998 16:43:34 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD5A68.A5F5F420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Read anything about HBC on the Pacific Coast, Fort Vancouver, they were mentioned in the journals about the pacific fur trade co. when they came around the horn . Just about anything about the NW will do they were hired to be labors for the HBC. later Jon T ---------- : From: Sommer J. Smouse <smouse@ubtanet.com> : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Islanders in the Mtns : Date: Friday, January 27, 1995 7:05 PM : : I have hear that Pacific Islanders were brought in to work in the fur : trade. Where can I find a reference for this. I know they weren't : called by the names we know them by todat, what were they called. : : Thanks : Forrest Smouse : ------=_NextPart_000_01BD5A68.A5F5F420 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">Read anything about HBC on the Pacific = Coast, Fort Vancouver, they were mentioned in the journals about the = pacific fur trade co. when they came around the horn . = Just about anything about the NW will do they were hired to = be labors for the HBC. later Jon T ---------- : From: = Sommer J. Smouse <smouse@ubtanet.com> : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Islanders in the Mtns : = Pacific Islanders were brought in to work in the fur : trade. = Where can I find a reference for this. I know = they weren't : called by the names we know them by todat, what were = they called. : : Thanks : Forrest Smouse : </body></html> ------=_NextPart_000_01BD5A68.A5F5F420-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sgtsam@cp.duluth.mn.us Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Green River knife Date: 28 Mar 1998 19:18:36 -0600 (CST) Don't know a lot about this, but the late Wad Miller of the Great Lakes Fur Trade museum once told me that no original Russell knives in use during the fur trade era were engraved "Green River," or even (I believe) Russell, making identification somewhat tough. He showed me several and all had five small pins - rivets were apparently a later innovation. Tangs were also tapered (thinner) at the top of the handle than at the hilt. P. Girard ================= >Carp writes: > >> I found, in an antique shop, what >> I believe to be an original Russell, Green River knife. It is stamped, >> not etched(sp?), Russell Green River Works (and I just cut myself with >> it, it is very sharp). Russell is underlined from after the capital R >> to the last L and Green River Works is underneath, all in caps. The >> blade is 11 3/4" from the hilt to the tip and the handle is 5 7/16". > >I also picked up a Green River knife at a flea market. Mine is a skinner. >Mine has: > >J.R. RUSSEL & CO. >GREEN RIVER WORKS > >stamped on the blade in CAPS, and there is a faint diamond beneath the >printing. It has been re-hafted and the scales are held on with 5 pins. It >shows minor pitting on the blade and the tang tapers to almost nothing at the >rear. >I'm aware that these blades are still made, but one or both of us may be >winners or losers as the case may be. I win anyhow, cause I only gave 3 bucks >for mine. > >OldFox > > hes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sgtsam@cp.duluth.mn.us Subject: Re: MtMan-List: History reinactments Date: 28 Mar 1998 19:09:46 -0600 (CST) >You could check with Fort Michilimackinac at Mackinac City, Mich. Try your browser, they should have a website, or you could try talking to this fella from the Detroit area: davidrt@juno.com P. Girard > > >AWarn10378 wrote: > >> I am searching for dates of historical reinactments in Michigan, Ohio, Indiana >> and Kentucky. I am also searching for information about becoming a reinactor. >> Hope you can help. > > >Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Content-Description: Card for Les Chaffin >Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" > >Attachment Converted: C:\WINDOWS\DESKTOP\vcard1.vcf > hes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Blue Rider <blurdr@gte.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Islanders in the Mtns Date: 28 Mar 1998 15:42:06 -1000 Lester Ross wrote: > > > Among others, the Hudson's Bay Company, Western Department utilized > Sandwich Islanders (i.e., Hawaiian Islanders or Kanakas) to work at > Fort Vancouver (Vancouver, WA). They resided in a village, Kanaka > Village, west of the 1829-1860 stockade, along with French-Canadian, > Iroquois, and other Native American servants and family members. > These Kanakas were used extensively as farm laborers, with a few used > as personal servants. > The site of Kanaka Village has been the focus of numerous > archaeological excavations. For a more complete listing of reports > discussing this research, see the web site on the historical > archaeology of Fort Vancouver at: > http://www.spiretech.com/~lester/fova/historical/historical.htm > > LAR > Thanks so much for this info. Never had any idea Islanders were working on the Mainland in that time period. Aloha Blue ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn <jc60714@navix.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Burglary Date: 28 Mar 1998 20:08:36 -0600 Washtahay- At 05:35 PM 3/28/98 -0600, you wrote: >Sorry to hear about your loss. What part of the country did this crime >occur? Guess I should have said. i am in eastern Nebraska. Thanks LongWalker c. du B. >-----Original Message----- >From: Jim Colburn <jc60714@navix.net> >To: hist_text@xmission.com <hist_text@xmission.com> >Date: Saturday, March 28, 1998 10:30 AM >Subject: MtMan-List: Burglary > > >>Washtahay- >> sometime in the past few days, I had some stuff stolen from my >>garage. Rondyvoo related stuff seems to have consisted of: >> >>14' diamond fly >>8' square ground cloth >>4 pt HBC blanket (candy stripe pattern) >>Capote-white w/black stripe (Whitney blanket). Sized real large-I am about >>6'4" and have a 50" chest. No hood, pockets on each side. Sewn with linen >>thread. >> >>All of the above was stuffed in an OD green duffle bag. >> Also taken was over 200 bullet moulds (mostly for suppository guns) >>packed in 7.62 ammo cans. >> >> If ya see someone who doesn't fit in trying to sell this stuff, I >>would appreciate a note. >>Thanks >>LongWalker c. du B. >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Longtrail <ezra@midrivers.com> Subject: MtMan-List: making snowshoes Date: 28 Mar 1998 21:05:48 +0000 While devouring the latest edition of Fur Fish & Game, I came across a book about making snowshoes. It says: "Building Snowshoes: The only book of its kind, 100 pages. over 85 illustrations, $11.95 plus $2.00 P&H. or SASE for free book brochure." Gil Patrick Box 461F, Skowhegan, Me. 04976 I recall that a while back someone was looking for information on making snowshoes. I hope it helps. Longtrail ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> Subject: MtMan-List: JIM BECKWOURTH Date: 28 Mar 1998 22:32:57 -0700 >Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 21:50:29 -0700 (MST) >X-Template: /home/users/d/drudy/public_html/mail.txt >To: <drudy@xmission.com> >From: Gerard Mawn <GMawn@aol.com> >Subject: JIM BECKWOURTH > >Just wanted to let you know that Im presenting a play about Jim Beckwourth in NYC April 21-May3rd. 4/26/98 is the bicentennial of his birth. Seems like a perfect time. > >I have been in contact with Mildred Sparks (msparks@dced.state.ut.us) about presenting the show in Salt Lake, but no confirmation, yet...:-) > >Gerard > >-- >This e-mail was generated from the world-wide web; the e-mail address > "Gerard Mawn <GMawn@aol.com>" >may be incorrect. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JFLEMYTH <JFLEMYTH@aol.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: rate of twist Date: 29 Mar 1998 07:02:31 EST I know several things that can lead to keyholing, but the first thing I would look at is what is the twist and what is the powder load. For instance, I do most of my informal shooting with a T/C Hawkin in .50 caliber. (Not very period correct, but very fun and easy to clean.) I get great groups with round ball at 25 or 50 yards with patched ball and 60 grains of FFg. However, when I try to shoot conicles, even with 85 grains, I occasionaly keyhole because the rate of twist is too slow to stabilize the bullet at those low end velocities. And that is approaching maximum safe load! What else do you reccomend? You obviously have a lot of experience and knowledge, (something I don't always have!) But I don't see why your against discussing rate of twist. John Fleming ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Burglary Date: 29 Mar 1998 05:08:09 -0700 Dear LongWalker, I'd sincerely like to help you nail the bad guys, but really, take a step back and look at the information you've provided about the stolen property. Similar items could be found at just about any rendezvous. I'm not sure what a suppository gun is, but I try not to make a habit out of checking other people's suppositories. Can you provide a better description of the 200 bullet molds. What's really the unique and differently that would make a positive identification of any of the the stolen property? D.T. -----Original Message----- >Washtahay- > sometime in the past few days, I had some stuff stolen from my >garage. Rondyvoo related stuff seems to have consisted of: > >14' diamond fly >8' square ground cloth >4 pt HBC blanket (candy stripe pattern) >Capote-white w/black stripe (Whitney blanket). Sized real large-I am about >6'4" and have a 50" chest. No hood, pockets on each side. Sewn with linen >thread. > >All of the above was stuffed in an OD green duffle bag. > Also taken was over 200 bullet moulds (mostly for suppository guns) >packed in 7.62 ammo cans. > > If ya see someone who doesn't fit in trying to sell this stuff, I >would appreciate a note. >Thanks >LongWalker c. du B. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" <wolverine76@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Islanders in the Mtns Date: 29 Mar 1998 05:34:55 -0700 Forrest, Look at the Fort Hall trade records and you'll see numerous Pacific Islanders were buying supplies from Fort Hall. I have also heard, but can't offer references, that a number of Shoshone families who have done their geneology show Pacific Islander's in their family trees. Fort Hall was, and is, in the heart fo Shoshone country. You might check surnames on the tribal rolls for Islander names. I know that Francis Ermatinger, one of the Hudson Bay traders left children with his name in the tribe, and the Ermatinger is a fairly common Shoshone name today. Not to suggest that Ermatinger was an Islander, but it shows the Indians often kept the names of their non-Indian fathers. Rocky Mountain beaver trappers, on close examination, turn out to be a pretty diverse group, probably even more diverse than many of the populations in the big city melting pots we often credit for mixing the blood of lots of immigrants. At first examination, it doesn't look as ethnically diverse because most of the journal keeper's families came from Northern Europe, and most genarally the British Isles -- even if their daddies fought for the Colonies during the American Revolution. Just my opinion, but I suspect some day that we'll rocognize that dark complexions were a lot more common than fair skin among the "American" mountain men. Good luck finding your Islanders -- they were there. Dave T. -----Original Message----- >I have hear that Pacific Islanders were brought in to work in the fur >trade. Where can I find a reference for this. I know they weren't >called by the names we know them by todat, what were they called. > >Thanks >Forrest Smouse > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rkleinx2 <Rkleinx2@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Islanders in the Mtns Date: 29 Mar 1998 12:46:52 EST In a message dated 3/28/98 8:39:34 AM, you wrote: <> Kanaka's ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gail Carbiener" <carbg@cmc.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast Iron Pots Date: 29 Mar 1998 10:18:07 -0800 Hi all: Recently purchased a cast iron pot made by "J.A. Coewey" of Albany, New York. It is 9 1/2" high and 9 3/4" top diameter. I cannot find anything about the manufacturer on the Net. Got any ideas? Gail ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bspen@aye.net (Bob Spencer) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Green River knife Date: 29 Mar 1998 14:30:21 -0400 >Don't know a lot about this, but the late Wad Miller of the Great Lakes Fur >Trade museum once told me that no original Russell knives in use during the >fur trade era were engraved "Green River," or even (I believe) Russell, >making identification somewhat tough. He showed me several and all had >five small pins - rivets were apparently a later innovation. Tangs were >also tapered (thinner) at the top of the handle than at the hilt. > >P. Girard >>I also picked up a Green River knife at a flea market. Mine is a skinner. >>Mine has: >> >>J.R. RUSSEL & CO. >>GREEN RIVER WORKS >>OldFox I've uploaded two pictures for anyone interested in seeing another version of the Green River Russell. This one is of Civil War vintage, according to Madison Grant's book. The 4 1/4 inch handle is stag, the tang is slightly tapered, there are 5 small pins plus an escutcheon, the 8 3/8 inch blade is of the Bowie style, and the markings are as described by OldFox. There is the typical diamond-within-a-diamond cartouche stamped on the blade below the label. Point your browser to: http://www.aye.net/~bspen/Pictures/Bowie.jpeg http://www.aye.net/~bspen/Pictures/Bowie2.jpeg Bob Bob Spencer <bspen@aye.net> http://www.aye.net/~bspen/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dale Nelson <dnelson@wmni.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Islanders in the Mtns Date: 29 Mar 1998 11:39:20 -0800 Sommer J. Smouse wrote: > > I have hear that Pacific Islanders were brought in to work in the fur > trade. Washington Irving wrote the book "Astoria" which was published in 1836. I have a reprinted copy (1967) and you should be able to find one. He mentions Hawaii on pages 44,45,47,58,and 433. He mentions "Sandwich Islands" (Hawaii) on pages 45,318,319,425,and 430 and he mentions Sandwich Islanders on pages 45,48,57,61,318, and taken on board the ship "Beaver" on pages 319,322,398,445, and 453, so that might be a good place to start. Also you might be interested in knowing that the Owyhee River over in the desert of eastern Oregon and western Idaho is actually the phonetic way that some old boy spelled Hawaii. Apparently not all of the Hawaiians stayed laborers, but some went on to be trappers, perhaps even free trappers. Lets face it, the journals that we read were all written in English. There are some good ones in German and French that I can't read. A lot of things went on that we only know bits and pieces of. Like women (wives) and children with the brigades in the field. They were with Jed Smith when he went to Calif., but only mentioned once in passing, and easy to miss. Dale Nelson dnelson@wizzards.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Burglary Date: 29 Mar 1998 14:47:37 -0600 breechloaders -----Original Message----- >Dear LongWalker, > >I'd sincerely like to help you nail the bad guys, but really, take a step >back and look at the information you've provided about the stolen property. >Similar items could be found at just about any rendezvous. > >I'm not sure what a suppository gun is, but I try not to make a habit out of >checking other people's suppositories. Can you provide a better description >of the 200 bullet molds. > >What's really the unique and differently that would make a positive >identification of any of the the stolen property? > >D.T. > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jim Colburn <jc60714@navix.net> >To: hist_text@xmission.com <hist_text@xmission.com> >Date: Saturday, March 28, 1998 9:39 AM >Subject: MtMan-List: Burglary > > >>Washtahay- >> sometime in the past few days, I had some stuff stolen from my >>garage. Rondyvoo related stuff seems to have consisted of: >> >>14' diamond fly >>8' square ground cloth >>4 pt HBC blanket (candy stripe pattern) >>Capote-white w/black stripe (Whitney blanket). Sized real large-I am about >>6'4" and have a 50" chest. No hood, pockets on each side. Sewn with linen >>thread. >> >>All of the above was stuffed in an OD green duffle bag. >> Also taken was over 200 bullet moulds (mostly for suppository guns) >>packed in 7.62 ammo cans. >> >> If ya see someone who doesn't fit in trying to sell this stuff, I >>would appreciate a note. >>Thanks >>LongWalker c. du B. >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio <JSeminerio@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: JIM BECKWOURTH Date: 29 Mar 1998 16:04:54 EST In a message dated 98-03-29 14:15:30 EST, you write: << Just wanted to let you know that Im presenting a play about Jim Beckwourth in NYC April 21-May3rd. 4/26/98 is the bicentennial of his birth. Seems like a perfect time. >> I and a few other brothers live in the valley please post the wheres & etc. and we will come see you. Hey make it a press event and we will come in our skins ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sgtsam@cp.duluth.mn.us Subject: Re: MtMan-List: making snowshoes Date: 29 Mar 1998 16:15:13 -0600 (CST) >While devouring the latest edition of Fur Fish & Game, I came across a >book about making snowshoes. It says: >"Building Snowshoes: The only book of its kind, 100 pages. over 85 >illustrations, $11.95 plus $2.00 P&H. or SASE for free book brochure." >Gil Patrick >Box 461F, >Skowhegan, Me. 04976 >I recall that a while back someone was looking for information on making >snowshoes. I hope it helps. Longtrail ==================== Though you may want to change a few things if you wish to make period correct snowshoes (rawhide lace and knots used, plus a much tighter weave) Gilpatrick's book is an excellent beginners guide with step by step instuctions. If you can read, count, and follow directions, you can make a pair of snowshoes using this book. For the first pair you make I would follow the book exactly and not change a thing. Experiment on subsequent pairs. P. Girard > > hes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: rate of twist Date: 29 Mar 1998 14:50:57 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD5B22.14AADE80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First thing write TC about your problem. 1 and 48 was designed because they shot maxi bullets they should shoot real good with the right bullet. It is usually the other way around patched round balls not as well but they shoot better then most shooters do. later Jon T ---------- : From: JFLEMYTH <JFLEMYTH@aol.com> : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Re: rate of twist : Date: Sunday, March 29, 1998 4:02 AM : : I know several things that can lead to keyholing, but the first thing I would : look at is what is the twist and what is the powder load. : : For instance, I do most of my informal shooting with a T/C Hawkin in .50 : caliber. (Not very period correct, but very fun and easy to clean.) I get : great groups with round ball at 25 or 50 yards with patched ball and 60 grains : of FFg. However, when I try to shoot conicles, even with 85 grains, I : occasionaly keyhole because the rate of twist is too slow to stabilize the : bullet at those low end velocities. And that is approaching maximum safe : load! : : What else do you reccomend? You obviously have a lot of experience and : knowledge, (something I don't always have!) But I don't see why your against : discussing rate of twist. : : John Fleming : ------=_NextPart_000_01BD5B22.14AADE80 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">First thing write TC about your = problem. 1 and 48 was designed because they shot maxi bullets they = should shoot real good with the right bullet. It is usually the = other way around patched round balls not as well but they shoot better = then most shooters do. later Jon T ---------- : = color=3D"#000000">> : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Re: rate of twist : = that can lead to keyholing, but the first thing I would : look at is = what is the twist and what is the powder load. : : For = instance, I do most of my informal shooting with a T/C Hawkin in = .50 : caliber. (Not very period correct, but very fun and easy = to clean.) I get : great groups with round ball at 25 or 50 = yards with patched ball and 60 grains : of FFg. However, when I = try to shoot conicles, even with 85 grains, I : occasionaly keyhole = because the rate of twist is too slow to stabilize the : bullet at = those low end velocities. And that is approaching maximum = safe : load! : : What else do you reccomend? You = obviously have a lot of experience and : knowledge, (something I = don't always have!) But I don't see why your against : = discussing rate of twist. : : John Fleming : </body></html> ------=_NextPart_000_01BD5B22.14AADE80-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn <jc60714@navix.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Burglary Date: 29 Mar 1998 19:16:09 -0600 Washtahay- At 05:08 AM 3/29/98 -0700, you wrote: >Dear LongWalker, > >I'd sincerely like to help you nail the bad guys, but really, take a step >back and look at the information you've provided about the stolen property. >Similar items could be found at just about any rendezvous. Where you at? Any rendezvous that has capotes my size and 200+ bullet moulds being sold by someone who obviously doesn't fit in, I think I want to attend! > >I'm not sure what a suppository gun is, but I try not to make a habit out of >checking other people's suppositories. Can you provide a better description >of the 200 bullet molds. Well, I was trying to avoid the use of the 'c' word. In other words, the moulds are for cartridge guns. A better description? I could, but I really didn't think this was an appropriate place to post a detailed list of over 200 moulds, by Ideal or Lyman mould numbers, with approximate vintage, cherry number, maker's initials, and diameters cast in two different alloys.;-) > >What's really the unique and differently that would make a positive >identification of any of the the stolen property? I am not asking for anyone to make a positive identification of the property-that is what law enforcement is for! All I was hoping for was a possible heads-up if some druggie showed up somewhere trying to peddle this stuff. I know-it is a long shot. But I am really not expecting my insurance company to be able to replace the moulds-it took me 20 years to collect them together. LongWalker c. du B. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clay Landry <Landry@wtp.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Islanders in the Mtns Date: 29 Mar 1998 20:43:27 -0700 (MST) At 08:05 PM 1/27/95 -0700, you wrote: >I have hear that Pacific Islanders were brought in to work in the fur >trade. Where can I find a reference for this. I know they weren't >called by the names we know them by todat, what were they called. > >Thanks >Forrest Smouse > ------------------------- Using Hawaiians as laborers by fur companies can be traced back to the very early days of the Northwest fur enterprises. Referred to as Sandwich islanders, Kanakas or Owhyees, these men worked for the Astorians or The Pacific Fur company, in the 1810 to 1813 period, the HBC from the early 1800's to the 1860's and Nathaniel Wyeth's Columbia River Trading and Fishing Company 1834 to 1837. In most cases they served as canoemen and engages but Wyeth tried to use them as canoemen and trappers. He brought the Kanakas to Fort Hall, located on the Snake River in south central Idaho. Many of them deserted-there is a page in the Fort Hall ledgers entitled "Runaway Kanakas". It itemizes all the goods, supplies, horses and equipment taken by the group of Kanakas who had headed back to the mouth of the Columbia river. In the Fort Hall ledgers some of the Kanakas' names listed are "Pig, Rice, Dida, Harry Martin Issac,Peter and Jack Fowler" Wyeth also had some of these men in his company when it arrived at the 1836 rendezvous-how about that one-Hawaiians at a Rendezvous!!! Aloha Ole coon!! Clay Landry P.O. Box 1033 Columbus MT 59019 -------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cwebbbpdr@juno.com (Charlie P. Webb) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Burglary Date: 29 Mar 1998 20:49:50 -0700 LongWalker, I don't know who all you have contacted about your theft, but I would like to recommend a long time friend and trader that you might wish to contact and send a list of your missing goods, also Nebraska has a fine State Muzzle Loading Association, and they I bet would publish your missing goods list in their news letter. I am sure you can contact the Assoc. through my friend Don Strinz 402-761-3244, 2325 West "O" Street Road, Milford, NE 68405. http://www2.strinz.com/tipi/ Don has been at this muzzle loading a long time, knows an awful lot of skinners etc. might just be able to help. Am truly sorry to hear of your loss, will also post your list in several club news letters that I am involved with if you don't mind. Respectfully Old Coyote CC CO. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Islanders in the Mtns Date: 29 Mar 1998 21:45:20 -0700 At 11:39 AM 3/29/98 -0800, Dale wrote: >Washington Irving wrote the book "Astoria" which was published in 1836. >I have a reprinted copy (1967) and you should be able to find one. It can be found at: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/astoria/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sommer J. Smouse" <smouse@ubtanet.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Islanders in the Mtns Date: 29 Jan 1998 22:38:50 -0700 To all of you that took time to reply to my request on Islanders in the Rocky Mountain fur trade, I give many thanks. My friend (a Tonga/Mowry) who asked me this question also gives his thanks. It has given us much to talk about. He and I will be doing some research now using your references. Thanks again, Forrest Smouse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kat <kat@janrix.com> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Burglary Date: 30 Mar 1998 08:39:21 -0500 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD5BB8.96210B60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm in MO, but I'll give the guys I know a heads-up. A thief who took = other things probably wouldn't know what he had -- and therefore would = try to lump it off pretty cheap, comparatively speaking.=20 Kat ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD5BB8.96210B60 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhINAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYA6AEAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAVwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGhpc3RfdGV4dEBsaXN0 cy54bWlzc2lvbi5jb20AU01UUABoaXN0X3RleHRAbGlzdHMueG1pc3Npb24uY29tAAAeAAIwAQAA AAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAHQAAAGhpc3RfdGV4dEBsaXN0cy54bWlzc2lvbi5jb20AAAAA AwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAAHwAAACdoaXN0X3RleHRAbGlzdHMueG1pc3Npb24uY29t JwAAAgELMAEAAAAiAAAAU01UUDpISVNUX1RFWFRATElTVFMuWE1JU1NJT04uQ09NAAAAAwAAOQAA AAALAEA6AQAAAB4A9l8BAAAAHQAAAGhpc3RfdGV4dEBsaXN0cy54bWlzc2lvbi5jb20AAAAAAgH3 XwEAAABXAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A3QEPVAIAAAAAaGlzdF90ZXh0QGxpc3RzLnhtaXNzaW9u LmNvbQBTTVRQAGhpc3RfdGV4dEBsaXN0cy54bWlzc2lvbi5jb20AAAMA/V8BAAAAAwD/XwAAAAAC AfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAACoXQBBIABABkAAABSRTogTXRNYW4tTGlzdDogQnVyZ2xhcnkAOQgBBYAD AA4AAADOBwMAHgAIACcAFQABADsBASCAAwAOAAAAzgcDAB4ACAAkAA4AAQAxAQEJgAEAIQAAADY2 ODFEMTVGRDE1QkJEMTE4MTk4NjI0MTQ2NjNCOTA2APQGAQOQBgA0BAAAIQAAAAsAAgABAAAACwAj AAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAwAuAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQCg6cc+4Vu9AR4AcAABAAAA GQAAAFJFOiBNdE1hbi1MaXN0OiBCdXJnbGFyeQAAAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABvVvhPmy0nHrtx5oR 0bYZtzlbh+7qAAAeAB4MAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAADwAAAGthdEBqYW5yaXguY29t AAADAAYQeQ4B2wMABxCfAAAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAASU1JTk1PLEJVVElMTEdJVkVUSEVHVVlTSUtO T1dBSEVBRFMtVVBBVEhJRUZXSE9UT09LT1RIRVJUSElOR1NQUk9CQUJMWVdPVUxETlRLTk9XV0hB VEhFSEFELS1BTkRUSEVSRQAAAAACAQkQAQAAABkBAAAVAQAANgEAAExaRnWhda2RdwAKAQMB9yAC pAPjAgBjgmgKwHNldDAgBxPlAoB9CoF1YwBQCwMLYEBuZzEwMzMCsSAwSSdtIAuABdBPLFggYnUF QBIAbAMgZ0BpdmUgdGgTcGcEdXkEIEkga25vCQfgYSAToGFkcy04dXAuD/ATgQiQZiAId2hvE4Bv b2sgvm8TkQXAFXERYAQgcANgMmIBoGx5FcAIYGxk3G4nBUAUQxXQYQVAE6GhD4BkIC0tFIBuGUC/ FnIBEAWwE3AXwxOAchegZRYQIApAbXASMAVAb3cBIBchD8B0F6APcBTAcH8SkAWgG2AKwBjAE1EX kXP6cBTAaxbhFTAKogqECoAuSxjAHmoQcQAgUAAAAAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAAAAAADAIAQ/////0AA BzDggjbP4Fu9AUAACDDggjbP4Fu9AQsAAIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAOFAAAAAAAAAwAC gAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEIUAAAAAAAADAAWACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABShQAA tw0AAB4AJYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAFSFAAABAAAABAAAADguMAADACaACCAGAAAAAADA AAAAAAAARgAAAAABhQAAAAAAAAsAL4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAA6FAAAAAAAAAwAwgAgg BgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEYUAAAAAAAADADKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAYhQAAAAAA AB4AQYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADaFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAEKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAA AAAARgAAAAA3hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgBDgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAOIUAAAEAAAAB AAAAAAAAAB4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAAwANNP03AABmxQ== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD5BB8.96210B60-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: Women's hoods Date: 30 Mar 1998 09:54:51 -0700 I promised to discuss the woman's version of the effigy hoods folks were discussing earlier. It is the rectangular Canadian Native woman's hood. Here are a couple of descriptions : "The cap, when they have one, consists of a piece of cloth, about two feet square, doubled, and sewed up at one end, which forms an enclosure for the head; and it is tied under the chin. The bottom of it falls down the back, like a cape, and in the centre, is tied to the belt. This cap is fancifully garnished with ribbon, beads or porcupine quills." 1820, Daniel Williams Harmon (W. Kaye Lamb, ed. _Sixteen Years in the Indian Country_, 203) "For a head dress they [Cree women] have a foot of broad cloth sewed at one end, ornamented with beads and gartering, this end is on the head, the loose parts are over the shoulders, and is well adapted to defend the head and neck from the cold and snow." David Thompson (Richard Glover, ed. _David Thompson's Narrative : 1784-1812_, p. 74) Why is it so important to decorate these hoods profusely? Because otherwise they are SO GOOFY! The peak is often decorated with a tassel, just to heighten the effect, which looks like you've tried (unsuccessfully) to stuff your head into an envelope. So decorations are crucial to distracting people from this effect. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Islanders in the Mtns Date: 30 Mar 1998 09:55:19 -0700 Forrest Smouse wrote : > I have hear that Pacific Islanders were brought in to work in the fur > trade. Where can I find a reference for this. I know they weren't > called by the names we know them by today, what were they called. I've quite enjoyed everyone else's posts, and thought I'd add my 2 cents worth. Eleven Hawaiians came to Astoria on the _Tonquin_ in 1811. In 1812, 12 or 13 more arrived, so that there were 24 Hawaiians at Astoria in 1813. We know the names of four of these men: Joseph Powrowie, James Kimoo, Dick Paou, Thomas Tuanna. (James Ronda, _Astoria and Empire_, 218-219, 228, 289) "Coxe" was a Sandwich Islander who joined the NWC at Astoria on July 31, 1811; he went to the east side of the Rockies with David Thompson, Thompson left Boulard behind to work for the PFCo (Barbara Belyea, ed. _Columbia Journals_, 173, 283, 288) . By 1814, many Hawaiians at Astoria were homesick, but the North West Company's Alexander Henry (the Younger) was not keen to send them home (Elliott Coues, ed. _New Light on the Early History of the Northwest : The Journals of Alexander Henry the Younger and David Thompson_, vol 2, p. 773, 756, 756n, 840, 849). To this day, there are still Hawaiians in British Columbia who carry on Hawaiian culture & traditions. According to an article in _Equinox_ or _Canadian Geographic_ from about five years ago, they also practice their Hawaiian religion, because they were such a small minority, the missionaries didn't bother with them. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "P.D. Amschler" <buckskinner@mailcity.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Kit Guns Date: 30 Mar 1998 09:56:53 -0700 Over the past few years there have been many gun kits that have been put out, but now I can't seem to find very many. I have the Dixie Gunworks catalogue and that is all I have been able to find.. The question I have is this: St. Louis Hawken in either or both perc or flint. Not with the brass like the TC but Ubertie had one oh maybe 10 years ago with the nickle furniture. Also a long rifle. ie. Penn. or Kentuc. Also any one have a place to get patterns for clothing? Paul <The Bear> Get your FREE, private e-mail account at http://www.mailcity.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> Subject: MtMan-List: Auctions & Such Date: 30 Mar 1998 10:06:31 -0800 (PST) Good Day! Spent most of Sunday at an auction (they are addictive) of the estate of a avid (rabid) collector. For about $40, I came away from it with three #4 Diamond traps, one #4 and two #1-1/2 Blake & Lamb traps, and three small cast iron kettles. Missed the three working Newhouses cause I didna want to spend more than $10 per trap (am now kicking meself very hard). Also missed some very old knives that were pinned versus riveted. Probably wouldna have paid so much except I was in competition with two very serious collectors, one of which was the famous "Traplady" of Moscow, a lady by the name of Nancy Haefer. Incidently, Nancy runs a buisness that includes working traps and collector traps, as well as parts, will send anyone interested her address/phone #. I had planned on a sheet metal frying pan, but now have the small kettles I had pretty much decided against.... ah well, such is fortune, one fer lead, one for cooking. If anyone is interested in the two #1-1/2 Blake and Lamb traps, email me off list.... and there is another auction next month with more traps on the block just south of here. Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sgtsam@cp.duluth.mn.us Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Burglary Date: 30 Mar 1998 09:26:10 -0600 (CST) I am not asking for anyone to make a positive identification of the >property-that is what law enforcement is for! All I was hoping for was a >possible heads-up if some druggie showed up somewhere trying to peddle this >stuff. > I know-it is a long shot. But I am really not expecting my >insurance company to be able to replace the moulds-it took me 20 years to >collect them together. >LongWalker c. du B. ====================== Sorry for your loss, especially for the molds it took 20 years to collect. Burglars are a special type of scum who should be hung by the short hairs, stuffed and used as a pina'ta by small nasty children armed with baseball bats. P. Girard > > hes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kit Guns Date: 30 Mar 1998 13:17:14 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD5BDE.27DFFD20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit try Jas. Townsend and son Inc. P.O. Box 415 Pierceton IN 46562 1-800-338-1665 you'll like the catalog Later Jon Towns ---------- : From: P.D. Amschler <buckskinner@mailcity.com> : To: Rendezvous Net <hist_text@xmission.com> : Subject: MtMan-List: Kit Guns : Date: Monday, March 30, 1998 8:56 AM : : Over the past few years there have been many gun kits that have been put out, but : now I can't seem to find very many. I have the Dixie Gunworks catalogue and that : is all I have been able to find.. : : The question I have is this: St. Louis Hawken in either or both perc or flint. : Not with the brass like the TC but Ubertie had one oh maybe 10 years ago with the : nickle furniture. Also a long rifle. ie. Penn. or Kentuc. : : Also any one have a place to get patterns for clothing? : : Paul <The Bear> : : : : Get your FREE, private e-mail : account at http://www.mailcity.com : ------=_NextPart_000_01BD5BDE.27DFFD20 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">try Jas. Townsend and son Inc. P.O. = Box 415 Pierceton IN 46562 1-800-338-1665 you'll like the = catalog Later Jon Towns ---------- : From: P.D. Amschler <buckskinner@mailcity.com> : To: Rendezvous Net <hist_text@xmission.com> : Subject: MtMan-List: Kit Guns : Date: = Monday, March 30, 1998 8:56 AM : : Over the past few years = there have been many gun kits that have been put out, but : now = I can't seem to find very many. I have the Dixie Gunworks = catalogue and that : is all I have been able to find.. : : = The question I have is this: St. Louis Hawken in either or = both perc or flint. : Not with the brass like the TC but = Ubertie had one oh maybe 10 years ago with the : nickle furniture. = Also a long rifle. ie. Penn. or Kentuc. : : = Also any one have a place to get patterns for clothing? : = : Paul <The Bear> : : : : Get your = FREE, private e-mail : account at http://www.mailcity.com : </body></html> ------=_NextPart_000_01BD5BDE.27DFFD20-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike Haught" <mwhaught@netwalk.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kit Guns Date: 30 Mar 1998 19:26:33 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BD5C11.BF9ED9A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Check out Golden Age Firearms in Ashley, Ohio. I do not have the = address handy right now. He offers many kits from Jaeger Rifle to Pennsylvania/Kentucky = Longrifle, Hawken/Plains Rifle, plus many more. I think his catalog is = $5.00. -mwh "Possum, the other white meat!" -----Original Message----- From: JON P TOWNS <AMM944@prodigy.net> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Date: Monday, March 30, 1998 7:15 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kit Guns =20 =20 try Jas. Townsend and son Inc. P.O. Box 415 Pierceton IN 46562 1-800-338-1665 you'll like the catalog Later Jon Towns ---------- : From: P.D. Amschler <buckskinner@mailcity.com> : To: Rendezvous Net <hist_text@xmission.com> : Subject: MtMan-List: Kit Guns : Date: Monday, March 30, 1998 8:56 AM :=20 : Over the past few years there have been many gun kits that have = been put out, but : now I can't seem to find very many. I have the Dixie Gunworks = catalogue and that : is all I have been able to find.. :=20 : The question I have is this: St. Louis Hawken in either or both = perc or flint. : Not with the brass like the TC but Ubertie had one oh maybe 10 = years ago with the : nickle furniture. Also a long rifle. ie. Penn. or Kentuc. :=20 : Also any one have a place to get patterns for clothing? :=20 : Paul <The Bear> :=20 :=20 :=20 : Get your FREE, private e-mail : account at http://www.mailcity.com :=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BD5C11.BF9ED9A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV>Check out Golden Age = Firearms in Ashley,=20 Ohio. I do not have the address handy right = now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He offers many kits from Jaeger Rifle to=20 Pennsylvania/Kentucky Longrifle, Hawken/Plains Rifle, plus many = more. I=20 think his catalog is $5.00.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> -mwh "Possum, = the other=20 white meat!" </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: = 5px"> <DIV>-----Original = Message----- From:=20 JON P TOWNS <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:AMM944@prodigy.net">AMM944@prodigy.net</A>> To: = <A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>=20 <<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com= </A>> Date:=20 Monday, March 30, 1998 7:15 PM Subject: Re: = MtMan-List: Kit=20 Guns </DIV> try Jas. Townsend and = son=20 Inc. P.O. Box 415 Pierceton IN = 46562 1-800-338-1665 you'll like=20 the catalog Later Jon Towns ---------- : From: P.D. Amschler = <<FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff>buckskinner@mailcity.com> :=20 To: Rendezvous Net <<FONT=20 color=3D#0000ff>hist_text@xmission.com> :=20 Subject: MtMan-List: Kit Guns : Date: Monday, March 30, 1998 8:56 = AM :=20 : Over the past few years there have been many gun kits that = have been=20 put out, but : now I can't seem to find very many. I = have the=20 Dixie Gunworks catalogue and that : is all I have been able to=20 find.. : : The question I have is this: St. Louis = Hawken in=20 either or both perc or flint. : Not with the brass like the = TC but=20 Ubertie had one oh maybe 10 years ago with the : nickle = furniture.=20 Also a long rifle. ie. Penn. or Kentuc. : : Also = any one=20 have a place to get patterns for clothing? : : Paul <The=20 Bear> : : : : Get your FREE, private e-mail : = account=20 at http://www.mailcity.com<FONT=20 color=3D#000000> :=20 </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY>= </HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BD5C11.BF9ED9A0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand <Traphand@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kit Guns Date: 30 Mar 1998 20:24:28 EST try track of the wolf last time i looked they had a hawken called the sante fe.made by uberti.it looks to be like the one i owned years ago. before i went to flint.its a damn good shooter still wished i keep it . trap ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu> Subject: MtMan-List: Straight Razors Date: 30 Mar 1998 20:33:46 -0800 (PST) Hallo I'm needing a straight razor, and can not find a good source for any with non-plastic handles. Any dealers out there that anyone knows of? Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paul mueller <pmueller@infinet.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kit Guns Date: 30 Mar 1998 23:56:50 -0500 Mike Haught wrote: > > Check out Golden Age Firearms in Ashley, Ohio. I do not have the > address handy right now. > > He offers many kits from Jaeger Rifle to Pennsylvania/Kentucky > Longrifle, Hawken/Plains Rifle, plus many more. I think his catalog > is $5.00. > > -mwh > "Possum, the other white meat!" > > -----Original Message----- > From: JON P TOWNS <AMM944@prodigy.net> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > Date: Monday, March 30, 1998 7:15 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kit Guns > > try Jas. Townsend and son Inc. > P.O. Box 415 > Pierceton IN 46562 > 1-800-338-1665 > you'll like the catalog Later Jon Towns > ---------- > : From: P.D. Amschler <buckskinner@mailcity.com> > : To: Rendezvous Net <hist_text@xmission.com> > : Subject: MtMan-List: Kit Guns > : Date: Monday, March 30, 1998 8:56 AM > : > : Over the past few years there have been many gun kits that > have been put out, but > : now I can't seem to find very many. I have the Dixie > Gunworks catalogue and that > : is all I have been able to find.. > : > : The question I have is this: St. Louis Hawken in either > or both perc or flint. > : Not with the brass like the TC but Ubertie had one oh > maybe 10 years ago with the > : nickle furniture. Also a long rifle. ie. Penn. or > Kentuc. > : > : Also any one have a place to get patterns for clothing? > : > : Paul <The Bear> > : > : > : > : Get your FREE, private e-mail > : account at http://www.mailcity.com > : you can find golden age at www,tradingpage.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CT OAKES <CTOAKES@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast Iron Pots Date: 31 Mar 1998 08:29:52 EST In a message dated 98-03-29 14:16:44 EST, you write: << Recently purchased a cast iron pot made by "J.A. Coewey" of Albany, New York. It is 9 1/2" high and 9 3/4" top diameter. I cannot find anything about the manufacturer on the Net. Got any ideas? Gail >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Straight Razors Date: 31 Mar 1998 00:57:47 -0600 At 08:33 PM 3/30/98 -0800, you wrote: >Hallo > >I'm needing a straight razor, and can not find a good source for any with >non-plastic handles. > >Any dealers out there that anyone knows of? > >Regards > >Lee Newbill Lee & others: those so inclined to greet each day by seeing if their hand is still steady enough to not slit their own throat, I have an original "Wade & Butcher" with the extra broad blade: as shown in "Mountain Man Sketch Book", vol II, p.32. I'd have to dig it out to be certain, but if I remember right even all the touch marks are the same. Exactly Right to 1820. It could have been at one or more original rendezvous. Cracked handle (poorly repaired/usable as is/maybe replaced), excellent blade. I never had need to use it. As I found it. Restoration and/or sharpening/grinding extra and would take something REALLY interesting to get me to do it. Real sharp just needs a good tune-up to shave. I'm open to trades, it is not for sale. E-mail offers on the side, please. It seems to me outside the list business. Want the best? What first class goods do you have to trade? John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA <RR1LA@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Straight Razors Date: 31 Mar 1998 02:06:18 EST Found some new pieces, of Pakistani origin at a local gun / memorabilia show in LA at the County Fairgrounds. Some had mother-of-pearl handles, some wood, most in the $7 to $20 range depending on the material. They also had some old 'Sheffield' razors, but most the blades were not in a usuable / restorable condition. PJ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Card <DCard@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Burglary Date: 31 Mar 1998 09:11:29 -0500 Ah. I too wasn't sure what a suppository gun was, thanks. This makes se= nse, = since you stick the bullet into the wrong end... The closest guess I could make was a Harper's Ferry gun, since one of his= men tried to use one to insert a lead ball into Lewis' butt. ;) -=3DDavid Card=3D- >breechloaders >> >>I'm not sure what a suppository gun is, but I try not to make a habit o= ut >of >>checking other people's suppositories. = ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Straight Razors Date: 31 Mar 1998 08:43:30 -0600 (CST) >Hallo > >I'm needing a straight razor, and can not find a good source for any with >non-plastic handles. > >Any dealers out there that anyone knows of? > I have one with a wooden handle I picked up from a Civil War reenacting pal. Looking for a new or used one? HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ********** LIVING HISTORY IS LIFE! ********** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "The Windhams" <windham@jps.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kit Guns Date: 31 Mar 1998 15:13:25 -0800 Paul, You might give Track of the Wolf a call and order one of their catalogues, they have a large line of goodies for build'n your own Rifles, I used them a couple of years ago and was very pleased wirh both their service & prices. you can reach them at (6122) 424- 2500 or contact me off line and I can give you a whole list of parts shops Rick Windham ---------- > From: P.D. Amschler <buckskinner@mailcity.com> > To: Rendezvous Net <hist_text@xmission.com> > Subject: MtMan-List: Kit Guns > Date: Monday, March 30, 1998 8:56 AM > > Over the past few years there have been many gun kits that have been put out, but > now I can't seem to find very many. I have the Dixie Gunworks catalogue and that > is all I have been able to find.. > > The question I have is this: St. Louis Hawken in either or both perc or flint. > Not with the brass like the TC but Ubertie had one oh maybe 10 years ago with the > nickle furniture. Also a long rifle. ie. Penn. or Kentuc. > > Also any one have a place to get patterns for clothing? > > Paul <The Bear> > > > > Get your FREE, private e-mail > account at http://www.mailcity.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Forrest Smouse <forrest@ubatc.tec.ut.us> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Straight Razors Date: 31 Mar 1998 08:38:12 +0000 Lee Newbill wrote: > Any dealers out there that anyone knows of? > Try your local antique dealer. That is where I found my Ivory handled razor. They had over a dozen straight razors when I went in and got mine. Cost me about $20. Some of the Germany knife makers produce razors. Don't know if they have plastic handles or not. The newly made one I have is unfinished and doesn't have a handle. Forrest Smouse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ITWHEELER <ITWHEELER@aol.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Straight Razors Date: 31 Mar 1998 23:29:14 EST chicogo- spelling? cutlerly again spelling? hear in ca. has many typs of razors. from all over. they fit real nice in your shoe. he he. chicogo cutlery. try there. mine that i use ona regular basis is from solingen germany yes plastick. i have seen a few in hock shops and atiqe [spelling] shops . wee have a kind of club of sorts and get together to sharpin our razors let me know if you need some information on sharpining witch i the only they will work right imean sharp. iron tounge forge wks.