I lurked during the last Swordbearer discussion, mostly because the people who didn't like it seemed to cover all my reasons and I dislike being repetitive.
It's been a few years since I tried to read it and it irritated me so much that I didn't finish reading it which means I'll have a hard time specifically addressing all of your questions, so let me try to sum up:
Generally, I don't mind predictable or tried and true story formulas if they're done well, I just didn't think this was. The story moved along too quickly for me to either a)buy what was happening or b)care at all about it. I needed more character, more background or something. I remember being under the impression at the time that the plot went the way it did because that was the way he wanted it to go and I felt like it should be a little more organic and character driven. There's some RPGers on this list so I'll use the analogy that it's like playing in a game where the GM has decided what's going to happen in the story and no action you take seems to be able to affect that. No flow to the story and no fun.
I like the basic concept you believe he started with and I very much enjoy the recurring theme of people in shades of grey that Glen Cook uses in his books, I just think he's done it way better than in Swordbearer.
Now, having said that, I've considered going back and reading it again to see if my opinion has changed and if I could actually finish it this time, but it was a borrowed copy that has since been returned to someone I no longer know and at this point I'm not too keen on spending money on it. Maybe after I'm done acquiring the Dread Empire novels, I'll take another run at it.
Sam (studiously ignoring the political comments out of a sincere desire not to cause an OT explosion) :-}
Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert <ninjaspam2@insaneninjahero.com> wrote:Alright, I know we've had this discussion before, but explain to me about
Swordbearer again (you aren't the only one who doesn't like it, if you
weren't here for the last time).
I /liked/ Swordbearer. I /liked/ that the protagonist changed sides, that
both sides were run by human beings who were, in the end, selfish pricks
after their own agenda.
I mean, that is what this whole Iraq thing is, right? Bush is a moron with
some agenda (that I'm not aware of because I try to ignore that entire
family) and Saddam Hussien is, in fact, Evil.
Now, I'll give you the poorly paced; I think this one book could have used a
little rewrite and another hundred pages at least.
I do not see the derivative. I thought that the story was intended as a
different twist on the standard "legendary sword" type story. (Hmmm. Was
there ever a "standard" legendary sword story? Because I can't think of
one.)
Predictable is a tough one for me. Many stories are predictable for me, but
other people don't complain about them being predictable. What aspects of
the story were predictable? The Garrett books are predicatable, in some
sense: he always spends time with a hottie, generally one that causes him
problems, and hilarity ensues.
Here's how I envision Mr. Cook as having come up with the story for
Swordbearer: "So there is this hero, right? And he has this sidekick, and
this legendary sword. Well, what if the story didn't go like we thought?"
and things snowballed from there.
This is a serious question; I'm not being a smartass (for once).
Kisc
"I donÆt get it, I mean what is it about relatively sane people (usually male it has to be said) who turn into really irritating wankers as soon as they get near a tour bus? Being in a band is not a short cut to ignorance and childishness; no matter how many times Liam Gallager pretends it is. The sad truth is that the more I see of the business the more I realize that Spinal Tap was just too tame." - Dean White, New Model Army
- ---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
- --0-200264528-1047586308=:69373
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
<P>I lurked during the last Swordbearer discussion, mostly because the people who didn't like it seemed to cover all my reasons and I dislike being repetitive.
<P>It's been a few years since I tried to read it and it irritated me so much that I didn't finish reading it which means I'll have a hard time specifically addressing all of your questions, so let me try to sum up:
<P>Generally, I don't mind predictable or tried and true story formulas if they're done well, I just didn't think this was. The story moved along too quickly for me to either a)buy what was happening or b)care at all about it. I needed more character, more background or something. I remember being under the impression at the time that the plot went the way it did because that was the way he wanted it to go and I felt like it should be a little more organic and character driven. There's some RPGers on this list so I'll use the analogy that it's like playing in a game where the GM has decided what's going to happen in the story and no action you take seems to be able to affect that. No flow to the story and no fun.
<P>I like the basic concept you believe he started with and I very much enjoy the recurring theme of people in shades of grey that Glen Cook uses in his books, I just think he's done it way better than in Swordbearer.
<P>Now, having said that, I've considered going back and reading it again to see if my opinion has changed and if I could actually finish it this time, but it was a borrowed copy that has since been returned to someone I no longer know and at this point I'm not too keen on spending money on it. Maybe after I'm done acquiring the Dread Empire novels, I'll take another run at it.
<P>Sam (studiously ignoring the political comments out of a sincere desire not to cause an OT explosion) :-}
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Alright, I know we've had this discussion before, but explain to me about<BR>Swordbearer again (you aren't the only one who doesn't like it, if you<BR>weren't here for the last time).<BR><BR>I /liked/ Swordbearer. I /liked/ that the protagonist changed sides, that<BR>both sides were run by human beings who were, in the end, selfish pricks<BR>after their own agenda.<BR><BR>I mean, that is what this whole Iraq thing is, right? Bush is a moron with<BR>some agenda (that I'm not aware of because I try to ignore that entire<BR>family) and Saddam Hussien is, in fact, Evil.<BR><BR>Now, I'll give you the poorly paced; I think this one book could have used a<BR>little rewrite and another hundred pages at least.<BR><BR>I do not see the derivative. I thought that the story was intended as a<BR>different twist on the standard "legendary sword" type story. (Hmmm. Was<BR>there ever a "standard" legendary sword story? Because I can't think of<BR>one.)<BR><BR>Predictable is a tough one for me. Many stories are predictable for me, but<BR>other people don't complain about them being predictable. What aspects of<BR>the story were predictable? The Garrett books are predicatable, in some<BR>sense: he always spends time with a hottie, generally one that causes him<BR>problems, and hilarity ensues.<BR><BR>Here's how I envision Mr. Cook as having come up with the story for<BR>Swordbearer: "So there is this hero, right? And he has this sidekick, and<BR>this legendary sword. Well, what if the story didn't go like we thought?"<BR>and things snowballed from there.<BR><BR>This is a serious question; I'm not being a smartass (for once).<BR><BR>Kisc<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><P>"I donÆt get it, I mean what is it about relatively sane people (usually male it has to be said) who turn into really irritating wankers as soon as they get near a tour bus? Being in a band is not a short cut to ignorance and childishness; no matter how many times Liam Gallager pretends it is. The sad truth is that the more I see of the business the more I realize that Spinal Tap was just too tame." - Dean White, <STRONG>New Model Army</STRONG></P><p><br><hr size=1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
<a href="http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/wh3/prod/">Yahoo! Web Hosting</a> - establish your business online
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) What a Wonderful World
- --0-169459365-1047586770=:53768
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Very well put, I agree with darn near all of what you said. I would just like to add that another thing I appreciated about the Books of the South was the use of different narrators. As much as I LOOOOVE Croaker and his tragic, sardonic wit, I really enjoyed marvelling at Mr. Cooks facility at moving between narrative voices so well without losing the story or my interest.
Sam I Am
Robo Tchas <robotchas@yahoo.com> wrote:I read the first Black Company books before there were
any Books of the South and thought the end of the
White Rose was one of the most satisfying, bittersweet
endings ever. I've reread them countless times,
because they've become comfort books even though I
know them almost by heart by now. So I was ambivalent
when I saw that he was writing more: I'd get more
Black Company, but at the potential cost of spoiling
the end of the White Rose (imagine reading a sequel to
the Lord of the Rings in which Frodo comes back from
the SPOILER to fight a new evil that just popped up,
because of something Gandalf overlooked).
I liked the Books of the South û the one written by
Lady was a fascinating insight into her character, and
I liked Bleak Seasons (which seems to be most people's
least favorite) because of the Billy Pilgrim-esque
elliptical timeline and the sense of impending doom û
it begins to escape the limitations of the genre and
become a meditation on grief, which may be why some
people were bored with it (the ending is undercut
somewhat by later events, just as another example of
an ending being undone). But I don't reread them the
way I reread the first three...I think some narrative
sprawl crept in, they're not lean and mean like the
Books of the North, and while I like Murgen, the
characters aren't as colorful for the most part: I'll
take Marron Shed over Willow Swan any day.
And Silver Spike I really could have done without (see
Frodo...)
I should clarify: Cook needs money to live on, and if
he can get it through writing, by all means he should
do so. I don't begrudge him the last couple Garrett
books, and I buy hardcover to support him. My wish is
that he WERE "raking in the cash" and had the luxury
of writing what inspires him and not what his
publisher thinks will sell. I think in the long run
that kind of economic pressure hurts authors: if
Cook's next ten books were all "Angry Lead
Skies"-quality I imagine most of us would have little
interest in his eleventh. If he's inspired to go back
and tell the story of Old Father Tree's arrival,
great, otherwise I'm happy to leave it to my
imagination. And personally, I *like* all the stuff
that's left to the imagination. It makes the world
bigger and more real because there are stories you'll
never hear. Part of the sense of wonder is...wondering.
To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
visit .
"I donÆt get it, I mean what is it about relatively sane people (usually male it has to be said) who turn into really irritating wankers as soon as they get near a tour bus? Being in a band is not a short cut to ignorance and childishness; no matter how many times Liam Gallager pretends it is. The sad truth is that the more I see of the business the more I realize that Spinal Tap was just too tame." - Dean White, New Model Army
- ---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
- --0-169459365-1047586770=:53768
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
<P>Very well put, I agree with darn near all of what you said. I would just like to add that another thing I appreciated about the Books of the South was the use of different narrators. As much as I LOOOOVE Croaker and his tragic, sardonic wit, I really enjoyed marvelling at Mr. Cooks facility at moving between narrative voices so well without losing the story or my interest.
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">I read the first Black Company books before there were<BR>any Books of the South and thought the end of the<BR>White Rose was one of the most satisfying, bittersweet<BR>endings ever. I've reread them countless times,<BR>because they've become comfort books even though I<BR>know them almost by heart by now. So I was ambivalent<BR>when I saw that he was writing more: I'd get more<BR>Black Company, but at the potential cost of spoiling<BR>the end of the White Rose (imagine reading a sequel to<BR>the Lord of the Rings in which Frodo comes back from<BR>the SPOILER to fight a new evil that just popped up,<BR>because of something Gandalf overlooked).<BR><BR>I liked the Books of the South û the one written by<BR>Lady was a fascinating insight into her character, and<BR>I liked Bleak Seasons (which seems to be most people's<BR>least favorite) because of the Billy Pilgrim-esque<BR>elliptical timeline and the sense of impending doom û<BR>it begins to escape the limitations of the genre and<BR>become a meditation on grief, which may be why some<BR>people were bored with it (the ending is undercut<BR>somewhat by later events, just as another example of<BR>an ending being undone). But I don't reread them the<BR>way I reread the first three...I think some narrative<BR>sprawl crept in, they're not lean and mean like the<BR>Books of the North, and while I like Murgen, the<BR>characters aren't as colorful for the most part: I'll<BR>take Marron Shed over Willow Swan any day.<BR><BR>And Silver Spike I really could have done without (see<BR>Frodo...)<BR><BR>I should clarify: Cook needs money to live on, and if<BR>he can get it through writing, by all means he should<BR>do so. I don't begrudge him the last couple Garrett<BR>books, and I buy hardcover to support him. My wish is<BR>that he WERE "raking in the cash" and had the luxury<BR>of writing what inspires him and not what his<BR>publisher thinks will sell. I think in the long run<BR>that kind of economic pressure hurts authors: if<BR>Cook's next ten books were all "Angry Lead<BR>Skies"-quality I imagine most of us would have little<BR>interest in his eleventh. If he's inspired to go back<BR>and tell the story of Old Father Tree's arrival,<BR>great, otherwise I'm happy to leave it to my<BR>imagination. And personally, I *like* all the stuff<BR>that's left to the imagination. It makes the world<BR>bigger and more real because there are stories you'll<BR>never hear. Part of the sense of wonder is...wondering.<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do you Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online<BR>http://webhosting.yahoo.com<BR><BR>=======================================================================<BR>To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,<BR>visit <HTTP: GC-Mail.html GC ~shpshftr www.xmission.com>.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><P>"I donÆt get it, I mean what is it about relatively sane people (usually male it has to be said) who turn into really irritating wankers as soon as they get near a tour bus? Being in a band is not a short cut to ignorance and childishness; no matter how many times Liam Gallager pretends it is. The sad truth is that the more I see of the business the more I realize that Spinal Tap was just too tame." - Dean White, <STRONG>New Model Army</STRONG></P><p><br><hr size=1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
<a href="http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/wh3/prod/">Yahoo! Web Hosting</a> - establish your business online
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) sequels and ramblings (medium length)
"Horky, Roger" wrote:
>
> I would opine that Godfather 2 was just as good if not better than
> the Godfather.
But both were drawn from the same source. Put the two movies together
and you more or less have the book (The Godfather) with a bit extra, all
written by the same hand.
>
> Part of the appeal of a sequel is timing. Reading the messages on this board, I get the impression that a good many of you have only recently begun reading the BC series, and thus were able to read them all in one (long) sweep. A certain amount of fatigue would naturally set in, reducing your enjoyment after the fourth or fifth book.
>
> However, I know that there are some on this board who read the first
> three when they first came out way back when, and whose only reaction
> to the end of White Rose was regret that there were no more books.
> Then, when the next titles came out, after such a long hiatus, there
> was a certain amount of excitement and anticipation, which even the
> best book may not live up to.
>
And of course the many looonnnnggggg years between the second book of
the South and the Glitter Stone series - years. Many years.
> I think that one of the problems (as has been said before) was that
> some of the later books didn't seem to have a fully-identified
> beginning, middle, and end--i could not imagine making a movie of
> them (although now that LOTR has demonstrated that it's possible to
> sustain interst in an unresolvbed storyline over the courrse of a
> year)--there was too much story for one single volume, sadly. I agree
> also that too many stories were wrapped up precipitously (but it was
> better than Dread Empire, where so many characters just died random
> battle deaths--GC overused the gimmick so often that my
> brother-in-law remembers nothing else about the series).
To me this is one of the joys of Cook.
Take your standard fantasy book where there are no insignificant main
character deaths. You know that the main characters will go through the
series and death is only a risk in moments of high drama where a death
would make sense.
Compare that to the first chapter of The Black Company and Sergeant
Mercy. As I started that book I identified Mercy as one of the main
characters - he was developed, his name explained, we saw his actions.
Then he goes down in a meaningless holding action, not dead, but
mortally wounded. (Last mentioned when Croaker was asked about his
changes and said "I've seen bigger miracles".) Then went Tom-Tom.
First chapter and two main character deaths. Without that I wouldn't
have accepted any of Raven's death scenes, and there would have been a
sense of danger missing from the series because I'd expect Raven,
Darling, Silent, One Eye, etc to live through all the books. Sure,
Croaker lived to write the book, but what about the other characters?
At anytime we might read "And X fell in the battle at Y" - making the
series more of a live and death struggle because death played a big
role.
If Moley died in the Garrett, well, I wouldn't be shocked the way I
would if another author killed off a main character. If the next BC
book opened (Possible spoiler) with the mention that somebody's mother
took him across the veil so he wouldn't be a become a bad boy, well, I
wouldn't be shocked. I've xome to expect main character death from
