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glencook-fans-digest    Wednesday, January 24 2001    Volume 01 : Number 076




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Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 07:58:26 -0000
From: "Joseph McGrath" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Garrett & BC world?

I know like in the tower of fear when he writes of some of the mountains in
the south and some of these battles that were fought long ago. i admire the
idea of the Glittering plain just for that possibility alone. Although from
what we've seen so far at least 2 worlds look relatively the same, just with
completely different inhabitants.
Joe
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Horky, Roger <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 12:28 AM
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Garrett & BC world?


> I have re-read GC books looking for hints that the worlds might be
connected
> or shared and have never found any real indications of such.
> *
> *
> *
> *
> spoiler
>
> for anyone
>
> who hasn't read
>
> SOLDIERS LIVE
>
> (and shame on you!
>
> it's been almost six months!)
>
> *
> ***
> *
>
> Of course, the various gates on the Glittering Plain could conceivably
> connect the worlds of BC, Garrett, Tower of Fear, Dread Empire, and
> Swordbearer.
>
>
> =======================================================================
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:15:46 -0000
From: "Joseph McGrath" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) That Rumor About Texas

Henter West Middlen's? is  where Winger comes from....
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Horky, Roger <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 1:37 AM
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) That Rumor About Texas


> I live in San Antonio, and used to live in Dallas, and have been all over
> Texas, and have never seen a connection between the geography of Texas and
> the Garrett world. I saw that earlier reference and dismissed it (although
I
> thought about it).
>
> We know that TunFaire is a port, but not on a coast. You have to take a
> barge to the sea, a short distance down river. once at sea, If you sail
> south you get to Fair Harbor eventually,  near the edge of the Cantard. I
> get the impression that the coast line curves southwest-northeast.
> The Cantard we saw in Sweet Silver Blues in mostly desert but Garrett
keeps
> referring to swampy islands and (I think) jungle.
> Tunfaire is far enough north that wooly mammoths are seen nearby but not
so
> cold that the thunder lizards are handicapped.
> the river runs north from TunFaire through forest and farmland.
> there are forests to the west.
> the nice estates of the rich folk are west (Marengo North English) and
south
> (General what's his name) I believe (although Chodo Contague lives up
> north).
> a small number of other Karentine  cities have been mentioned but the only
> one I can think of offhand is TenHagen where they make spectacles.
> there was an elven city far to the west but it was destroyed for harboring
> evil cults.
>
> none of this excludes Texas save for the river--not many long navigable
> rivers here. maybe the Brazos, but there is no major city on it near the
> coast. Houston is a major port 30 miles inland but it's built in a swampy
> area (Houston, Mexico City, Washington DC: three of the worst places in
the
> world for cities) and doesn't have rivers but does have bayous (bayoux?).
> Besides, Venageta is "on the other side of the Cantard"--it doesn't have a
> shared border with Karenta, I believe--which would mean that if Karenta
were
> Texas, Venageta would probably be central Mexico.
>
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:25:27 -0600
From: "Ray Washburn" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Garrett (was: dead)

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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  If I remember correctly, Tunfaire is a city in the country of Karentia


  100% correct.  I scribbled that up while I was at work waiting on an =
install to finish...  There are a couple of errors in it....this one =
being the most blatant.  It was the Venageti vs the Karentines in the =
Cantard.


  I don't recall any references in any of the Garrett books that would =
indicate that Glory Mooncalled is a centaur.

  I believe Garrett refers to him as a centaur in the first two books.  =
I'm tempted to go back and re-read them just to make certain.

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3019.2500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>If I remember correctly, Tunfaire is a city =
in the=20
  country of Karentia<BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>100% correct.  I scribbled that =
up while I=20
  was at work waiting on an install to finish...  There are a =
couple of=20
  errors in it....this one being the most blatant.  It was the =
Venageti vs=20
  the Karentines in the Cantard.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV><BR><FONT color=3D#0000ff>I don't recall any references in any of =
the=20
  Garrett books that would indicate that Glory Mooncalled is a=20
  centaur.<BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I believe Garrett refers to him as a =
centaur in=20
  the first two books.  I'm tempted to go back and re-read them =
just to=20
  make certain.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0053_01C08516.0A992FC0--


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:33:37 -0600
From: Pete Flugstad <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) That Rumor About Texas

David George wrote:
>
> Way back when I joined this list (this sleepy list) someone floated a rumor
> past that the geography for the Garrett novels was based on Texas.  Or
> maybe the Midwest.  Does this ring any bells with anyone?  Anybody got some
> reasons backing this rumor?  And does anyone have maps (not of Texas, I got
> plenty of those) of Karenta/The Cantard/Venageta?

I don't know about the geography, but the names for some of his characters
in Faded Steel Heat are directly from names of cities on Iowa.  Specifically,
"Tama Montezuma" (major character in Faded Steel Heat) is on exit sign on
I-80, on US Highway 63 about 40 miles east of Des Moines.  There's a few
others as well (Tama's boyfriend/companion in FSH, but I can't recall the
name right now).

I'm guessing Glenn traveled to DSM for something (a show) and saw the
names on the way back to St. Louis and liked them.

Pete

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:38:30 +0100
From: "Marcin Welnicki" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: (glencook-fans) Garrett (was: dead)

- -----
I don't recall any references in any of the Garrett books that would
indicate that Glory Mooncalled is a centaur.

I believe Garrett refers to him as a centaur in the first two books.  I'm
tempted to go back and re-read them just to make certain.

No- he says that Glory Mooncalled uses centaurs to scout for him



- --


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:59:48 -0400
From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Garrett & BC world?

Steve Harris wrote:
>
> Richard,
>
> Thanks for the background on Garrett's world (though I didn't read past
> your Spoilers warning).
>
> This sounds like as nasty a world as that of the BC, in terms of
> warfare.

The setting is nasty, but the tone isn't.  I feel the tone has more in
common with the detective tales of the 30s than the BC books.
One of the main difference?  Garrett is a Hero - a Good Guy.  Try
finding one of those in the BC.

>  I wonder if the sorcery is in any way similar?  Garrett speaks
> of The Hill (where the local town magicians live) with mingled dread and
> loathing, which is about what one would expect from the locals in the BC
> universe, having to deal with such powers as those in The Circle (some
> of them quite nasty).
>

I'm not sure - the magic seems to be more elemental based (Stormwardens
etc) than the BC.

> I don't think I have seen anything that would put Garrett's world
> clearly outside the BC world (though not necessarily in just the same
> time frame as the BC books).

I'd say different, for two reasons:
The gods make an actual apperance in one book.
The non-humans - the BC hasn't even heard legends of these guys.

>  The level of technology seems roughly
> similar, as does the level of political organization (though that's less
> clear to me).  What I haven't seen yet is the political import of the
> non-human species; is it possible that they can be roundly ignored by
> the humans in most places, so that they may exist in the BC world but we
> just don't every hear of them?
>

I can't see Crooker not following legends of the non-humans.  Also
"Thunder Lizards" still walk the earth.

> (Dread Empire is different:  There one national group that practises
> sorcery in a big way, like nothing in the BC world.  Also, the portals
> are a very important military, hence, geopolitical element, not existing
> in the BC world or in Garrett's world.)
>

I'm not sure I'd say that the DE is all that different from the BC
world.  If the Dominator (or Lady) had been more secure in his power -
to the extent that wizardary was openly taught - I could see their
Empire practicing magic in a big way.

> I wonder if Glen has ever considered doing more of a "straight" yarn
> (not "hard-boiled detective" or pastiche of same) exploring the
> convoluted geopolitics of Garrett's world.
>

I think that would violate the tone of the books - like setting a
romantic love story in the world of the BC it just wouldn't fit.

> BYW:  The Weider family and his mansion and brewery are very evidently
> derived from the brewery families in St. Louis (Anheuser-Busch, Lemp).
> Great fun seeing them playing a central role in comic fantasy :)
>

Brewery families like that have existed for centuries - I don't know
enough about the St. Louis ones to agree that they served as the model.

Richard

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 19:15:42 -0400
From: Richard Chilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) That Rumor About Texas and other Garret Stuff

Amy Weathers wrote:
>
> I was always under the impression that Glory Mooncalled was a centuar.
> Granted I have not read a Garret novel in the past five years and I do not
> currently own any so my memory could be  way off and I have no way of
> looking it up.
>

I too have not read them in a while but recall some connection to the
Centaurs...  Something along the lines of him leading his people (the
Centaurs)....
Something about the centaur refugues not being overly welcomed.

> On the subject of roleplaying worlds,  the Sanctuary gaming world (and the
> novels too) reminds me of Garret's world.  They both have their own
> organized crimelords, thieves, beggars and 'good guy' rogues.  Both worlds
> are also dark and have sorcerers causing many problems.  When I first read
> some of the Sanctuary novels, they reminded me of the Garret novels.
>

I read them in the other order (read both as they came out and Thief's
World came out first), and I'm not sure the setting is all that
similar.  Thief's World was the first big experiment in building a
Shared World and while it spawn several others you can see the growing
pains in the first couple of books.
I see both series borrowing from a long tradition of fantasy theives -
from the underworld of the Grey Mouser to the Dark World Detective.
Even the "Tales from the Dying Earth" series had some good crime
elements.

As for adopting the Garrett books to a RPG - it wouldn't be hard.  D&D,
GURPS, Rolemaster, RuneQuest -  all have most of the races you'd need.
The magic system isn't well defined so adopting that might be a problem.

It's not the make up of the world that draws readers to Garrett - it's
the setting.  Elven Gangsters using Orge breed muscle - other worlds
have Elves and Orges, but I can't recall any book (other than a couple
of TSR ones, but their tone was radically different) that had that style
of Elves and Orges.

Richard

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 19:02:49 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: (glencook-fans) Garrett geography

The city of Tun Faire is quite obviously based on St. Louis where Glen lives.
 I haven't heard him confirm it, but I have heard him refuse to deny it.  I
don't think the world geography is based on anywhere in our world, the only
thing that is you can really tell is that Karenta is in the southern
hemisphere.  Why?  Because thunder lizards live to the north where it is
hotter, and as the weather has been warming, they have been spreading south.

Michael W Sweet

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:09:28 -0600
From: "Horky, Roger" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Garrett geography

In response to an earlier message regarding place names in the Garrett
world:

I saw and spoke to Mr Cook back at the Worldcon here in San Antonio back in
'96 or '97?, I forget which.
He said that his earlier reviewers gave him a real hard time about the
unpronouncable names he gave to people and places in the Dread Empire
series, so he decided 'he'd show them.' Hence names like Charm, Oar, and
Beryl, Case, Elmo, and Goblin in BC.
He also said that he got most of the names for Garrett-world characters from
street signs. I got the impression that most were in the St Louis area, but
given that Mr Cook travels so much (and the testimony of our other
correspondent), it would seem he finds interesting names everywhere.

so, does anybody know where the "marengo/north english" exit is?

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:31:09 -0600
From: "Horky, Roger" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Mooncalled as Centaur

Finished re-reading Faded Steel Heat last night and Mooncalled is distinctly
a human in that one.

Mooncalled relied on centaur auxilliaries for much of the Cantard War, which
may be what confuses people. They are mobile, smart, and deadly.

The only centaur in the Garrett series with a name is Zeck Zack, the
procurer in Sweet Silver Blues.

Other Centaur references are:
Garrett sees a refugee family of centaurs in TunFaire (I forget which book),
which is his first clue things are getting wierd in the war.
In a later book (again I forget which), he sees a Centaur who hires himself
out to haul cargo, indicating non-humnas have begun to make a place in the
Karentine economy.
In Faded Steel Heat, cenaturs acting for Mooncalled appear near teh Pipes,
North English's estate, and later some attempt to rescue various bad guys
being 'interviewed' by Garrett, Block, Relway, et al.

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 19:48:27 -0500 (EST)
From: [e-mail] (Steve Chew)
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Garrett geography

>
>so, does anybody know where the "marengo/north english" exit is?
>

    I don't know about that one, but I often used to drive past
the "Glenwood/Cookville" exit when I lived in Maryland (it's off Rt. 70
near Columbia MD).  It always made me think of Glen Cook when I went by.
:-)

                Steve


- --
Steve Chew - [e-mail] - http://www.interzone.com
"The spinal column is a long bunch of bones.  The head sits on the top and
 you sit on the bottom."
        -- things children say...

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Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:47:55 -0600
From: "Horky, Roger" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Garrett geography

One of the nice things about working in a library is that you learn how to
find the answers to your own questions. Marengo and North English are both
towns in Iowa.

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Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:09:28 -0600
From: "Horky, Roger" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Garrett geography

In response to an earlier message regarding place names in the Garrett
world:

I saw and spoke to Mr Cook back at the Worldcon here in San Antonio back in
'96 or '97?, I forget which.
He said that his earlier reviewers gave him a real hard time about the
unpronouncable names he gave to people and places in the Dread Empire
series, so he decided 'he'd show them.' Hence names like Charm, Oar, and
Beryl, Case, Elmo, and Goblin in BC.
He also said that he got most of the names for Garrett-world characters from
street signs. I got the impression that most were in the St Louis area, but
given that Mr Cook travels so much (and the testimony of our other
correspondent), it would seem he finds interesting names everywhere.

so, does anybody know where the "marengo/north english" exit is?

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Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:54:35 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Garrett geography

- --part1_25.105ecd84.279f8fdb_boundary
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In a message dated 1/23/01 6:20:14 PM Central Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:


>

Well, there's a Marengo Cave in Indiana...  a county there too, I think.

North English is a city in Iowa.

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 1/23/01 6:20:14 PM Central Standard Time,
<BR>[e-mail] writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">so, does anybody know where the "marengo/north english" exit is?</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR>Well, there's a Marengo Cave in Indiana...  a county there too, I think.
<BR>
<BR>North English is a city in Iowa.</FONT></HTML>

- --part1_25.105ecd84.279f8fdb_boundary--

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Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:14:50 -0600
From: Pete Flugstad <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Garrett geography

"Horky, Roger" wrote:
>
> so, does anybody know where the "marengo/north english" exit is?
>

That's the one I couldn't remember.

This is another exit off if I-80 in Iowa.  I'm pretty sure it's
exit 216 or 220, about 70 miles east of Des Moines.

Pete

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Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 23:11:48 -0600
From: "Don" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Garrett (was: dead)

Dude. Warn us for spoilers. Reading that first line sucked. I haven't gotten
that far in the series yet.

Don
"In time, what's deserved always gets served."- COC


- ----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph McGrath <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Cc: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Garrett (was: dead)


> Glory Mooncalled is not a Centaur! He is a cynical, manipulative old man
who
> is wrung dry of all his secrets, by the Dead Man. The Dead Man takes
control
> of him at the end of Faded Steel Heat, from inside a huge beer keg, while
at
> Weider's Estate. Poor chuckles gets disilusioned at the petty aspirations
of
> Mooncalled and Tama Montazuma. After all, Mooncalled was Old Bones's hero
> for a while and i think the truth only vilifies and justifies the
sarcastic
> opinion that Morley and the Dead Man have about Humans.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ray Washburn <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 7:08 PM
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Garrett (was: dead)
>
>
> > Glory Mooncalled is a centaur, that's how he convinced the Centaur
tribes
> to
> > help him in the Cantard..  Garrett meets him later in the series as
> > well...which confirms the fact.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <[e-mail]>
> > To: <[e-mail]>
> > Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 1:04 PM
> > Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Garrett (was: dead)
> >
> >
> > > In article <[e-mail]>
you
> > write:
> > > > Morning Glory was a centaur ??????????? This is not how I read
it....
> > >
> > > Hmmm.  Glory Mooncalled (!) is human, IIRC.
> > >
> > > -- _Faded Steel Heat_ SPOILERS --
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > At least, IIRC he shows up as a fairly tired old guy in _Faded Steel
> > > Heat_.
> > >
> > > --
> > > David M. Meyer
> > > [e-mail]
> > >
> > >
=======================================================================
> > >  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> > >  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> > >
> >
> >
> > =======================================================================
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> >  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
>
> =======================================================================
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>


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Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 23:55:36 -0600
From: "Horky, Roger" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Garrett (was: dead)

I understand that people are confused but don't know why. Can anybody cite a
passage from any of the books athat would identify Mooncalled as anything
but human?

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Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 22:54:15 -0800
From: Bill Curran <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Garrett books

I have only read the BC books.  If I were to find it, which of the Garrett
books should I read first???




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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 13:24:22 -0500 (EST)
From: [e-mail] (Steve Chew)
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Garrett books

>
>I have only read the BC books.  If I were to find it, which of the Garrett
>books should I read first???
>

    I always like to start with the first book of a series which
in this case would be "Sweet Silver Blues".  It introduces the
characters and sets up the world that the rest of the books depend
on.  It also happens to be my favorite Garrett book.

                Steve


- --
Steve Chew - [e-mail] - http://www.interzone.com
"Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine."

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