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glencook-fans-digest    Saturday, November 4 2000    Volume 01 : Number 050




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 21:47:47 -0800
From: "Richard Gruver" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Monthly Mailing List Update

Did this list die or something? I haven't gotten anything from it in my mail
box in so long, I joined again because I thought I had been dropped. Did
everyone lose interest all of a sudden?
Richard Gruver


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 21:53:16 -0600
From: "David George" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Monthly Mailing List Update

It's a hurricane, man.  When it's blowing up, it fills your inbox in a big
hurry.

Then nothing.  Later, another blow.

You are not crazy.  This is not the first lull.  That's just this list.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Gruver <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Monthly Mailing List Update


> Did this list die or something? I haven't gotten anything from it in my
mail
> box in so long, I joined again because I thought I had been dropped. Did
> everyone lose interest all of a sudden?
> Richard Gruver
>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 23:10:23 -0600
From: "Vonder Haar, Peter C." <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Monthly Mailing List Update

 I can't speak for everyone, but I just finished Martin's _A Clash of Kings_
and am eagerly, and somewhat sheepishly, awaiting _A Storm of Swords_.

 Pete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Gruver [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 11:48 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Monthly Mailing List Update
>
>
> Did this list die or something? I haven't gotten anything
> from it in my mail
> box in so long, I joined again because I thought I had been
> dropped. Did
> everyone lose interest all of a sudden?
> Richard Gruver
>
>
> ==============================================================
> =========
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 23:19:18 -0800
From: Aaron Contreras <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Monthly Mailing List Update

_A Storm of Swords_ is keeping it real.  Bought it at 12:00 on Wednesday,
finished it at 11:30 Thursday.  Can't wait for the next one - be interesting
how the story will change since he is letting the timeline advance five
years in between ASOS and the next book.

Aaron


- -----Original Message-----
From: Vonder Haar, Peter C. [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 9:10 PM
To: '[e-mail]'
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Monthly Mailing List Update


 I can't speak for everyone, but I just finished Martin's _A Clash of Kings_
and am eagerly, and somewhat sheepishly, awaiting _A Storm of Swords_.

 Pete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Gruver [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 11:48 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Monthly Mailing List Update
>
>
> Did this list die or something? I haven't gotten anything
> from it in my mail
> box in so long, I joined again because I thought I had been
> dropped. Did
> everyone lose interest all of a sudden?
> Richard Gruver
>
>
> ==============================================================
> =========
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 07:31:35 -0800
From: "Tim McDowell" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (glencook-fans) cover art for 'Glittering Stone' vol 1 & 2

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C04568.18640FA0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Greetings Folks;

    Just a breif note to let you know about the cover art on the jackets =
of the two new collections (?) of Mr. Cook's work. Volume 1 has the =
first 2 books of the 'Glittering Stone' and Volume 2 has the last 2 =
books of the 'Glittering Stone'.

    The entire picture of the art work was found by Eric and is at:

http://www.donatoart.com/alexg.html

    What they have done is to split the painting vertically. The left =
half of the painting is shown on the cover of Volume 2 and the right =
half is on Volume 1. On the back of the dust jacket is a small copy of =
the entire painting.=20

    Personally, I had never thought of anyone in the company as looking =
like Alexander the Great, but it is an excellent painting.

    Have a good day everybody.

    Tim


- ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C04568.18640FA0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    Greetings =
Folks;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    Just a breif note to =
let you=20
know about the cover art on the jackets of the two new collections (?) =
of Mr.=20
Cook's work. Volume 1 has the first 2 books of the 'Glittering Stone' =
and Volume=20
2 has the last 2 books of the 'Glittering Stone'.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    The entire picture =
of the art=20
work was found by Eric and is at:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.donatoart.com/alexg.html">http://www.donatoart.com/ale=
xg.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    What they have done =
is to split=20
the painting vertically. The left half of the painting is shown on the =
cover of=20
Volume 2 and the right half is on Volume 1. On the back of the =
dust=20
jacket is a small copy of the entire painting. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    Personally, I had =
never thought=20
of anyone in the company as looking like Alexander the Great, but =
it is an=20
excellent painting.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    Have a good day=20
everybody.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>    Tim</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C04568.18640FA0--


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 14:48:15 -0500
From: Steve Harris <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin

Hi, all,

Since Martin's _Song of Ice and Fire_ has been raised again, I thought
I'd chime in with my ideas on comparison of that with the Black Company saga.

I, too, am just finishing the second of the Martin series; I find myself
drawn to that series in much the same was as to the Black Company.  Why?

I think it's the realism of personal motivations.  This is not "high
fantasy" (say, like Tad Willaimson or Robert Jordan--whom I also like),
where people are mostly Figures of Good or Figures of Evil.  Instead, we
have complex personality types, in which we can admire the vitality and
inventiveness and sense of humor of a Soul Catcher or a Jamie
Kingslayer, even in spite of the palpable evil in their souls.  And we
can root enthusiastically for the "good guys" Lady or Tyrion the Imp,
while not losing sight of the darkness that is in them, even so.  (That,
I think is an especially apt comparison.)  And in the minor characters,
we have the essential brutality--accepted as part of the general
societal norms--that informs the acts of even the good guys' henchmen,
whether the ranks of the Black Company or the men-at-arms of any of the
several sides in _Song of Ice and Fire_.

Cook's has been called fantasy noir.  Martin's is not quite so
gritty--because most of it is centered on noble/royal characters--but
you still get some of the same feel as from the opening scene in "Monty
Python and the Holy Grail": *everyone* (except the king) is covered in
shit; that's just the way the world is.

Steve

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 15:34:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Igor Filippov <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin

I couldn't help myself when I saw reference to Robert Jordan :)
For me, when characters are either sparkling-white good or
bad bad bad BAD evil, it's either annoying or hypocritical, sometimes
both. Robert Jordan's characters are threefold so (sorry, Steve !)
Glen Cook's books are honest about that aspect of human psychology,
that's why I enjoy reading them. I don't understand how pulp
fiction like "Wheel of Time" could ever make a bestseller, I felt
like I was being brainwashed when I read the first few books.
By the way, I haven't seen anybody mentioned "Passage at arms" here,
I think this book has been overlooked by many. After I struggled
through first couple of pages, I couldn't put it away for a minute !
I wonder if Mr. Cook has any kind of Navy experience, his description
of life on a space "u-boat" sounds amazingly realistic !
Steve, I hope you won't take personally my remark about Robert Jordan :)

                    Igor



On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Steve Harris wrote:

> Hi, all,
>
> Since Martin's _Song of Ice and Fire_ has been raised again, I thought
> I'd chime in with my ideas on comparison of that with the Black Company saga.
>
> I, too, am just finishing the second of the Martin series; I find myself
> drawn to that series in much the same was as to the Black Company.  Why?
>
> I think it's the realism of personal motivations.  This is not "high
> fantasy" (say, like Tad Willaimson or Robert Jordan--whom I also like),
> where people are mostly Figures of Good or Figures of Evil.  Instead, we
> have complex personality types, in which we can admire the vitality and
> inventiveness and sense of humor of a Soul Catcher or a Jamie
> Kingslayer, even in spite of the palpable evil in their souls.  And we
> can root enthusiastically for the "good guys" Lady or Tyrion the Imp,
> while not losing sight of the darkness that is in them, even so.  (That,
> I think is an especially apt comparison.)  And in the minor characters,
> we have the essential brutality--accepted as part of the general
> societal norms--that informs the acts of even the good guys' henchmen,
> whether the ranks of the Black Company or the men-at-arms of any of the
> several sides in _Song of Ice and Fire_.
>
> Cook's has been called fantasy noir.  Martin's is not quite so
> gritty--because most of it is centered on noble/royal characters--but
> you still get some of the same feel as from the opening scene in "Monty
> Python and the Holy Grail": *everyone* (except the king) is covered in
> shit; that's just the way the world is.
>
> Steve
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 15:36:11 -0600
From: Steve Harris <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin

Igor,

"when characters are either sparkling-white good or
bad bad bad BAD evil, it's either annoying or hypocritical"

That's what High Fantasy is.  And where would Cook (or Martin) be
without Tolkien, the modern-day (post-WW2) originator of the genre, who
wrote only High Fantasy?  High Fantasy has its important developmental
themes, such as the creation ("subcreation", as Tolkien puts it) of a a
richly imagined world, though one done in Very Pure Colors, very little
grey or washed-out; then it's the interplay of Important Moral Forces
(Good vs. Evil, Bravery vs. Complaisance, Forthrightness vs. Willful
Ignorance, etc.) that stirs the imagination.  There's no hypocricy about
it--no one is saying "Hey, I'm a Frodo Baggins"--it's just drawing in
larger-than-life proportions.  Annoying?  That's a matter of taste--de
gustibus non disputandam.

Tolkien (and also Williamson) plays up the importance of the Little Guy
putting shoulder to wheel and Doing What Must Be Done.  Jordan plays out
Naive Good People taking on Leadership (and losing their naivete along
the way, as I read it).  Hard to make these themes so transparent in a
gritty real world, where the naive never get the opportunity to lead
(and they'd be quickly shunted aside if they were), and the little guys
almost never have the solitary and most important job to do.

Sleepy takes on Leadership, but she moves into it the hard way (and
without *any* naivete), by moving up the ranks from spear-carrier to
guerilla organizer to strategist--and there she over-reaches herself and
brings ruination upon her followers, because she's *not* the proper
war-leader of the BC.  And so Cook gives us realism, including failure,
while Jordan, for instance, gives us unbridled success in his trio
(quartet?) of leaders.  So we read Cook or Martin for How to
Succeed/Fail in a Really Nasty World; we read (well, I read) Tolkien or
Williamson or Jordan for How to Succeed Because Your Cause Is Just.
It's not the same goal on the part of the writer or the reader.

Steve

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 15:51:40 -0600
From: Steve Harris <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) cover art for 'Glittering Stone' vol 1 & 2

Tim,

Ummm, that painting...

"Hey, look!  The enemy general's not wearing a helmet!  Everyone throw
something at him!"

Well, I guess it wouldn't be Heroic Art if we couldn't look at his Noble Profile.

Steve

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 17:12:05 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) cover art for 'Glittering Stone' vol 1 & 2

Heroic Art has never been an artform steeped in accuracy. You can only take
warrior-maidens with chain-mail bras and bare midriffs so far.

Win

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 17:40:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Igor Filippov <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin

Steve,

This is an interesting angle, but personally I always considered
Tolkien to be a very realistic type of writer - in his own way, granted.
Any success Tolkien's heroes achieve comes only as a result of
hard work, sweat and blood. And he does a wonderful job of showing
the emotional and moral growth of his characters when countered by
the realities of the "big world". Frodo and Sam, Pippin and Merry
who returned to Hobbiton are not the same people that left it.
Moreover, Sauron himself wasn't born evil either - and Tolkien
did point that out unambiguously.
There's absolutely none of that nonsense I see so often about
a hero "who has nothing but the purity of heart that conquered
everything" in some of the bestsellers which titles I can't be
bothered to remember. It seems like for the characters of that type
everything falls together with no effort whatsoever on their part.
Well, maybe for some people it does, it certainly was not the case
with life as I see it :)

Igor

On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Steve Harris wrote:

> Igor,
>
> "when characters are either sparkling-white good or
> bad bad bad BAD evil, it's either annoying or hypocritical"
>
> That's what High Fantasy is.  And where would Cook (or Martin) be
> without Tolkien, the modern-day (post-WW2) originator of the genre, who
> wrote only High Fantasy?  High Fantasy has its important developmental
> themes, such as the creation ("subcreation", as Tolkien puts it) of a a
> richly imagined world, though one done in Very Pure Colors, very little
> grey or washed-out; then it's the interplay of Important Moral Forces
> (Good vs. Evil, Bravery vs. Complaisance, Forthrightness vs. Willful
> Ignorance, etc.) that stirs the imagination.  There's no hypocricy about
> it--no one is saying "Hey, I'm a Frodo Baggins"--it's just drawing in
> larger-than-life proportions.  Annoying?  That's a matter of taste--de
> gustibus non disputandam.
>
> Tolkien (and also Williamson) plays up the importance of the Little Guy
> putting shoulder to wheel and Doing What Must Be Done.  Jordan plays out
> Naive Good People taking on Leadership (and losing their naivete along
> the way, as I read it).  Hard to make these themes so transparent in a
> gritty real world, where the naive never get the opportunity to lead
> (and they'd be quickly shunted aside if they were), and the little guys
> almost never have the solitary and most important job to do.
>
> Sleepy takes on Leadership, but she moves into it the hard way (and
> without *any* naivete), by moving up the ranks from spear-carrier to
> guerilla organizer to strategist--and there she over-reaches herself and
> brings ruination upon her followers, because she's *not* the proper
> war-leader of the BC.  And so Cook gives us realism, including failure,
> while Jordan, for instance, gives us unbridled success in his trio
> (quartet?) of leaders.  So we read Cook or Martin for How to
> Succeed/Fail in a Really Nasty World; we read (well, I read) Tolkien or
> Williamson or Jordan for How to Succeed Because Your Cause Is Just.
> It's not the same goal on the part of the writer or the reader.
>
> Steve
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 17:33:48 -0600
From: Steve Harris <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin

Igor,

I didn't say that characters can't develop and grow in High
Fantasy--just that they are pretty well unalloyed in morality, either
Good or Evil.  Gollum, of course, is quite clearly alloyed of two
metals--but they don't intermix (as they do in Lady or Soul Catcher or
Goblin), they come as virutally separate personalities.  And even so,
Gollum is the least High-Fantasay-type character in Tolkien.

(Boromir, however is another matter:  He *is* intermixed, in a way that
Gollum isn't.  And yet, he still seems to me to fit the prescriptions
for High Fantasy; maybe because he's a recognized Type, the Good Man
with Too Much Pride and Ego?)

That's not all there is to the distinguishment of High Fantasy from
other fantasy; there's a good deal to be found in Leguin's _Languages of
the Night_, where she points out that how the characters speak is pretty
much a dead give-away.  Can you imagine Croaker speaking in Frodo's
voice?  No one in the BC would listen to him!  Or Gandalf using
One-Eye's habits of speech?  He'd never have been admitted to the White
Council :)  This is part of what makes _Bored of the Rings_ such fun parody.

It's not actually the formality of speech I'm referring to here, but the
content of what people choose to talk about (i.e., the author chooses
for us to overhear).  Lady speaks of her low opinions of everybody else
and her general cynism, while Croaker goes on about his romantic
fantasies for Lady or shares his very colorful frustrations with trying
to Captain a couple of wizards with egos.  But you never hear a word
from Strider on the worthlessness of those he's protecting or the
frailties of those he's trying to work with--it just wouldn't be fitting
to find that kind of consideration in the work.

Steve

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 17:45:51 -0600
From: "David George" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Passage At Arms (was:Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin)

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Igor Filippov <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 2:34 PM
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin


(snip)

> I wonder if Mr. Cook has any kind of Navy experience, his description
> of life on a space "u-boat" sounds amazingly realistic !

(snip)

GC served on a destroyer, among other places.  Which makes even more sense
after you read Heirs of Babylon.  Details should be in the faq and also in
the interviews on the web site.

I agree with you about Passage, great read.  In part, the quality of Passage
at Arms was what made it harder for me to get into the Starfishers
trilogy--it is good, especially once you get farther into it, but I found it
much easier to get into Passage.  The hardest part about Starfishers for me
was probably the first 50 to 100 pages of the first book.  I was reading it
wondering who is this guy and what did he do with Glen Cook?  I put it aside
for a few years and then picked it up later and thought "Oh, wait, now I see
it, this is not bad."  The second and third books are better still.  But
Passage is the best of the bunch.

DG


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 17:06:22 -0800
From: "Tim McDowell" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) cover art for 'Glittering Stone' vol 1 & 2

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) cover art for 'Glittering Stone' vol 1 & 2


> Heroic Art has never been an artform steeped in accuracy. You can only
take
> warrior-maidens with chain-mail bras and bare midriffs so far.
>
> Win

    And as 'Cerberus the Earth-Pig' is once rumoured to have said; " If you
quit wearing that thing, they may heal."

    Tim



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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 17:24:26 -0800
From: "Tim McDowell" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Igor Filippov <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin


Frodo and Sam, Pippin and Merry
> who returned to Hobbiton are not the same people that left it.
> Moreover, Sauron himself wasn't born evil either - and Tolkien
> did point that out unambiguously.

    I think that you maybe referring to Saruman who started out as 'the
White' was seduced by Sauron while using the seeing stone. I think the stone
was a 'palantir'. Saurman then became 'the many-colored' and eventually fell
from power and was killed in the Shire by WormTongue. His spirit was then
denied access to the "WEST' .
    Sauron, however, was a nasty one from the get-go. He was one of the
lesser spirits of the Valar. And able to shape shift to a wolf. He was 'the
Lieutenant' for Morgorth who was the biggest baddest nastiest being that
ever tried to take over a world.
    Atleast according to J.R.R.T.  He detailed his earlier history of
Middle-Earth in the 'Simarailion'. Every thing you wanted to know , but
didn't how to ask.

    Tim



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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 02:00:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Igor Filippov <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin

Tim,

For some reason I'm sure I remember that Gandalf said to Frodo once
"Even Sauron wasn't born a villain", or something like that.
I'll try to look up the exact quote...

Igor


On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Tim McDowell wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Igor Filippov <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 2:40 PM
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) comparison, Cook & Martin
>
>
> Frodo and Sam, Pippin and Merry
> > who returned to Hobbiton are not the same people that left it.
> > Moreover, Sauron himself wasn't born evil either - and Tolkien
> > did point that out unambiguously.
>
>     I think that you maybe referring to Saruman who started out as 'the
> White' was seduced by Sauron while using the seeing stone. I think the stone
> was a 'palantir'. Saurman then became 'the many-colored' and eventually fell
> from power and was killed in the Shire by WormTongue. His spirit was then
> denied access to the "WEST' .
>     Sauron, however, was a nasty one from the get-go. He was one of the
> lesser spirits of the Valar. And able to shape shift to a wolf. He was 'the
> Lieutenant' for Morgorth who was the biggest baddest nastiest being that
> ever tried to take over a world.
>     Atleast according to J.R.R.T.  He detailed his earlier history of
> Middle-Earth in the 'Simarailion'. Every thing you wanted to know , but
> didn't how to ask.
>
>     Tim
>
>
>
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>


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