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fractint-digest       Tuesday, December 26 2000       Volume 01 : Number 520




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 17:19:45 -0500
From: "Michael C. Hughes" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Bah humbug

Bob:

     Another warning vis-a-vis Mr. Miller's site:  it made continuous
attempts to breach my system through a number of different ports while I was
checking the site.  Unless you are protected, watch out.

                                                              Mike Hughes


Bob Margolis wrote:

> What annoys me the most about posting fractal-art pictures or parameter
> files to either these discussion groups or to the fractal-art newsgroups
> is the nerve of some people who download those pictures and files that
> were created by, make use of it in some way that benefits them, and then
> ask for my permission to do what they have already done.
>
> This has happened to me several times in the past five years I've
> ve been on the Internet and I'm sure it has happened to some of you
> people too.
>
> Case in point:
>
> I just received this e-mail:
>
> Subject: Seeking Fractal Permissions
> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 19:01:39 -0500
> From: Jonathan Miller <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail], [e-mail]
>
> Dear Mr. Margolis,
>
> A while back, I saved some of your fractals from
> alt.binaries.pictures.fractalsto make covers for the live Grateful Dead
> CD-Rs I collect. I've set up a website to offer covers from my
> collection
> for other folks to download. May I use a piece of your artwork?
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/rock/gdcdrcovers/demonstration.html is my dummy
> page with thumbnails of the covers. If you scroll down to 9-02-68,
> you'll
> see how I used your picture "Sierpinski Starpinski" and listed your
> copyright as the artist.
>
> The Grateful Dead allow people to trade their music as long as the discs
> or
> tapes aren't sold. The covers on the site are available for others to
> download free, so this would be a totally non-profit use of your image.
> Please let me know if I may use it!
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Jon
>
> Why do people such as Jonathan Miller take possession first and ask
> permission to do so afterward? It never made any sense to me. It seems
> as if people such as Mr. Miller have no concept of what copyright or
> copyright violations mean. They continue to take and take and feel that
> some of us should be honored that they cared enough about our artwork to
> steal it. Then they absurdly ask, "Now that we have it may we keep it?"
>
> Not only is Mr. Miller taking my artwork without getting my permission
> first, he's using it in a manner that may not be suitable to me.
> Shouldn't it be up to me, the artist, as to how my artwork is used? What
> if I don't want my artwork to appear on his covers for his Grateful Dead
> CDs? Don't I have the right to express that opinion before Mr. Miller
> creates his covers, especially since he's not paying for the privilege?
>
> I'm not the only victim of Mr. Miller's take first and ask permission
> second ways. I went to his Website and found names of other fractal
> artists whom I recognize from my participation in the Ultra Fractal
> discussion group.
>
> The artists and their artwork are:
>
> Rear image "Rainbow Tangles" copyright 1999 by Damien M. Jones.
>
> Front fractal "99101603m" copyright 1999 by G.W.F. Albrecht.
>
> Rear image "Futterbly2" copyright 2000 by Ray Dix.
>
> Other artists' names that I'm not familiar with who may be subscribed
> any of these three discussion groups are:
>
> Georg Carlson, Phillip Brown, Matthew "Schizo" Kost, Craig Blair, Stu
> Haluski, Aladrin Faehan, Karen McCormack, Estate of the late, great Rick
> Griffin, et al.
>
> If any of your names are here, you may want to contact Mr. Miller about
> his using your artwork.
>
> I have contacted Mr. Miller and have given him an emphatic "NO" for his
> use of my artwork and I have insisted that he remove the depicted CD
> cover in question from his Web site. I hope he has sense enough to honor
> my request.
>
> Bob Margolis
>
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 20:35:01 -0500
From: harry <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Bah humbug

Hi yall

<lurk mode off>

I read Jon's post. He is correct about his statements regarding the
policy of
the Grateful Dead regarding the use of concert tapes.  They permitted
audio
amatures to tape each performance, within the restriction of limiting
the seating
to a particular section (so there would not be disturbances to other
concert-goers).
The strategy was very effective in promoting their music... every fan
bought ALL
their commercial albums... and a lot of the concert tapes were traded.

So there is no question here legality (as far as the GD are concerned).

Unfortunatly this attitude carries over into other realms... such as the
fractal art we are
referring to. Not everyone is happy with "Communism" (er...
Socialism???)

If it was MY art... I'd say go ahead but I need you to burn me a couple
of CD's of
your best concert tapes as trade...   ;^)

But you are right... the art IS your property. I'd suggest just putting
lo-res pictures on
your web sites... because by hoisting this stuff in machine readable
form at high res...
you are publishing it and others may not ask your permission even AFTER
they steal it!

BTW.  I suggested to Jon (offlist) that he get his own copy af Fractint
and play with it
himself. He's missing a whole lot of fun...

And I have chosen for MY motto the payment policy of the Stone Soup
Group...
"Don't want money... GOT money.... want RECOGNITION".   I do acknowledge

the stone soup group everytime I say or write this phrase. They DO
deserve recognition!

Thanks all for the neat flamewars!!!  It gets too boring in these
intellectual groups sometimes...

H^)  harry  <lurk mode on zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.......>

[e-mail] wrote:

> In a message dated 12/24/2000 12:03:13 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> [e-mail] writes:
>
>
>
>> You say, "And even besides that, you won't be affected either way by
>> his
>> using "your" fractal images on his CD covers."
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> Actors and athletes often get upset when their name is associated with
>
> something they do not approve of.
>
> It can interfere with the future value of their ability to market
> themselves
> (Unless you are a Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods).
>
> This is no different.
>
> Mr Margolis may not want his art reduced to the level of "dead head"
> home-burned CD's which may also be of questionable legality.  This may
> also
> interfere with his overall grand scheme of marketing his artwork and
> its
> perceived value either today or in the future, particularly if its
> reduced to
> market oversaturation.
>
> I don't think I'd be likely to grant permission to use my own
> copyrighted
> artwork with such a fuzzy sounding enterprise either.
>
> I'd also think that if my work were to be blatantly borrowed to then
> be asked
> for permission later, I'd be upset too.  In fact, someone sent me a
> link to
> their greeting card site, with all my artwork and not so much as a
> copyright
> notice or credit.  All the images were credited to them and not me, so
> this
> was even more offensive.  I sent this person a license agreement and
> they
> refused to sign it, despite several follow up attempts.  The agreement
> simply
> stated that they would not make money off my commercial images, and
> they
> would replace the images with ones with copyrighted watermarks in
> them.  I
> have records of doing this repeatedly, so I can imagine should one day
> they
> hit the big time, and I pursue  damages will be trebled.
> (I am lucky that no UPR's or fractal file information was provided, so
> this
> person was stuck with rather low resolution images).  I now understand
> why
> some artists only publish pictures and do not provide the means for us
> to
> recreat images with fractal software, while others are more trusting
> and use
> copyrighted notices in their UPR or frm files.
>
> All I can say is we probably need to be more upfront in our web pages
> about
> license and restrictions for use, much like a video tape or DVD is for
>
> personal home private use only....
> and that any other such use requires additional licensing agreement.
>
> This forum might be a place to help standardize such a format for all
> of us
> to prevent this type of  intellectual property "seizure"
>
> Paul


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 00:41:20 -0500
From: "Multiple Bogeys" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Fractint bug.

Severity: Moderate
Data Loss: Insignificant-None
Reported Against: Fractint 20.01.4
Description: Video key assignments are no longer remembered.
To Reproduce: Start it up, hit del, go to some unassigned mode,
              hit numpad +, hit an unassigned key, select the video
              mode, hit del again, key is no longer bound.
              With a default install and fractint.cfg:
              Start up, del, select 1024x768x256 disk video,
              numpad +, alt-F7, select 1024x768x256 disk video,
              enter, del, alt-F7 will be unbound.
Additional Notes: * This bug was most likely introduced in fixing the
                    earlier bug that overwrite the "colors" column
                    of fractint.cfg with all "256"s, causing strange
                    behavior and (with passes=b and certain orbit/
                    special types) hangs with 16-color video modes.
                  * The latest version as of this writing is 20.01.5,
                    but there is no mention in 20.01.5 that the bug
                    was fixed in that version, and I don't think
                    anyone else has reported it, so it is probably
                    in version 20.01.5 as well.


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 00:54:04 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (fractint) Bah humbug

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What kind of breaches and how does one protect one's self?
Thanks

In a message dated 12/25/2000 2:21:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:


> Another warning vis-a-vis Mr. Miller's site:  it made continuous
> attempts to breach my system through a number of different ports while I was
> checking the site.  Unless you are protected, watch out.
>
>



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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>What kind of breaches and how does one protect one's self?
<BR>Thanks
<BR>
<BR>In a message dated 12/25/2000 2:21:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>[e-mail] writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Another warning vis-a-vis Mr. Miller's site:  it made continuous
<BR>attempts to breach my system through a number of different ports while I was
<BR>checking the site.  Unless you are protected, watch out.
<BR>
<BR>                                                              </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

- --part1_15.da764af.27798c7c_boundary--

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 01:37:17 -0500
From: "Barry N. Merenoff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Bah humbug

Message text written by INTERNET:[e-mail]
>I'd suggest just putting lo-res pictures on your web sites...<

I'd suggest not using the web at all. Get some hard copies laminated, and=

sell them at an art show.

Sincerely,
        Collin


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 00:38:22 -0600
From: "Paul N. Lee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Bah humbug

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> What kind of breaches and how does one protect
> one's self?    Thanks
>
> [e-mail] writes:
> >
> > Another warning vis-a-vis Mr. Miller's site:
> > it made continuous attempts to breach my system
> > through a number of different ports while I was
> > checking the site.  Unless you are protected,
> > watch out.
>

You might try the freeware from ZoneLabs, called "ZoneAlarm":

    http://www.zonelabs.com/


Sincerely,
P.N.L.
- --------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.fractalus.com/cgi-bin/theway?ring=fractals&id=43&go

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 1:03 0000
From: [e-mail]
Subject: (fractint) reality check

Bob,

I agree with all the points about intellectual property and your
right
to protect yours but when I first read your post my immediate
reaction was amazement that you'd posted parameters to
usenet and then got annoyed when they were poached, you
get what you pay for here in some senses and for free broadcast
of your images to people all over the world you have to expect
some tradeoff in loss of control over the images. You can put
as much legalese as you like in the bumf but there's nothing
you can do abou some guy in Taiwan (for example) running
off posters.

I feel I have to leap to the defence of the guy who took the
trouble
to write to you asking permssion and (so to speak) enclosing
a rough draft of the way in which he was to use you image.

The main point here is
that just because he sent you a url which had a web page on
the end of it doesn't mean he has published your work.
He stated that it was a dummy page and, until you distributed the
url by publishing it to two mailing lists, you might have been the
only other person able to access the page. I think you were very
unfair to the author in your comments to the list and may even
have made yourself liable to libel by publlically denouncing him
as
having already stolen your work.

It's a brave new world out there in the net and it's attempts to
hold
on to the old style of information control thats causing all sorts
of unworkable legistlation to pop up and fatten the wallets of
lawyers and corporations.

To illustrate this there is a possibility that I have taken some of
your
images and put them on a web page of mine accompanied by
derogatory captions. I could have disttributed the url to "dead
heads"
via an anonymous email account so they can have a good
chuckle at your expense,
they are scattered across the world, and I'm  not about to tell you
or
anyone here either the URL or who I might have  sent it to. To
further complicate things the page was stored on the freenet
system
and is thus stored on a distributed file system in untraceable
encrypted form accessable only by knowing a large key value
which I sent out with the invites. By all means sue me for
possibly perpetrating the above conceivable event but good luck
 proving whether this happened or not, hope you've got deep
pockets, I'm innocent until proven guilty in this country :-)

Now the above paragraph may well have got peoples blood up
if so, stop and calm down, you can do nothing about it, if you
think that you should be able to then just sit back and think
through the implications, think about what freedom means.

 Sorry for the inflammatory style folks but Bob started it IMHO :-)

You *cannot* say that someone has stolen your images simply
by downloading them from a public forum, admiring them and
putting them in
their scrapbook. Save such downright rudeness for those
who download images then publish a cdrom or open an exhibition
claiming the work as their own, that's deserving of the title, I
hope you apologised to him and thanked him for showing
integrity and respect by not using images when asked not to.

Don't forget this is the fractint list, one which exists
purely because a bunch of people gave freely of their work at
a time when others were cashing in and overcharging for
what were often shoddy works.

Cheers,
         Robin.




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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 20:35:33 -0500
From: "Michael C. Hughes" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Bah humbug

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Khemyst:

     I'm not an expert in this area, but most PC's have the software
equivalent of thousands of "Ports" open when they are connected to the
net.  Most viruses and worms are set to attack specific ports once they
are activated.  In this case, the ports being attacked are not ones
specific to any viruses, but just ports that are open and through which
someone can gain entrance into your system, usually just for a look
around.  Go to zonelabs.com for the basic firewall system (it's free,
even; their higher level system is $29.95).  Also get Norton
Systemworks.  Among other things it comes with a firewall which doesn't
stop everything from getting in, but will warn you when any site,
including Symantek's, is trying to take any information out of your
system via your net connection.  Even the two of these don't offer
perfect protection, but if you have the Zone Labs system you will be in
for a big surprise when you find out how many sites try to zing
something into your system even before the cookies start coming at you.
     (Also, see a site, anonymizer.com, which will shock you if you are
not already aware of just how vulnerable you are.)

                                                               Mike
Hughes


[e-mail] wrote:

> What kind of breaches and how does one protect one's self?
> Thanks
>
> In a message dated 12/25/2000 2:21:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> [e-mail] writes:
>
>
>
>> Another warning vis-a-vis Mr. Miller's site:  it made continuous
>> attempts to breach my system through a number of different ports
>> while I was
>> checking the site.  Unless you are protected, watch out.
>>
>>
>
>
>

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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Khemyst:
<p>     I'm not an expert in this area, but most PC's
have the software equivalent of thousands of "Ports" open when they are
connected to the net.  Most viruses and worms are set to attack specific
ports once they are activated.  In this case, the ports being attacked
are not ones specific to any viruses, but just ports that are open and
through which someone can gain entrance into your system, usually just
for a look around.  Go to zonelabs.com for the basic firewall system
(it's free, even; their higher level system is $29.95).  Also get
Norton Systemworks.  Among other things it comes with a firewall which
doesn't stop everything from getting in, but will warn you when any site,
including Symantek's, is trying to take any information out of your system
via your net connection.  Even the two of these don't offer perfect
protection, but if you have the Zone Labs system you will be in for a big
surprise when you find out how many sites try to zing something into your
system even before the cookies start coming at you.
<br>     (Also, see a site, anonymizer.com, which will
shock you if you are not already aware of just how vulnerable you are.)
<p>
Mike Hughes
<br>
<p>[e-mail] wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>What kind
of breaches and how does one protect one's self?</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>Thanks</font></font>
<p><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>In a message dated 12/25/2000
2:21:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>[e-mail] writes:</font></font>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>Another
warning vis-a-vis Mr. Miller's site:  it made continuous</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>attempts to breach my system
through a number of different ports while I was</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>checking the site.
Unless you are protected, watch out.</font></font>
<br>
<br> </blockquote>

<br> </blockquote>
</html>

- --------------2DC87A3E5A4A4A6524029D51--


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 21:18:43 -0600
From: Bob Margolis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Bah humbug

harry wrote:
>

> But you are right... the art IS your property. I'd suggest just putting
> lo-res pictures on
> your web sites... because by hoisting this stuff in machine readable
> form at high res...
> you are publishing it and others may not ask your permission even AFTER
> they steal it!


Better yet, I've decided that from now I put the ⌐ symbol, the current
year, and my name atop each design I upload to the fractal-picture
newsgroups, where a lot of fractal art is pilfered by unscrupulous
persons for their personal or financial gain, to the detriment of the
original artist. The copyright noticed atop the design is on a duplicate
one meant for newsgroup viewing. The original design, meant for art
shows and the like, will not have this interfering notice.

Bob

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 20:02:30 -0800
From: "George Priest" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Re:  Bah Humbug

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This Fractal copyright business has always been a matter of interest to =
me.  What is copyrighted:  the image; the par; the frm?  What happens =
if, using one of the common formulae, I come up with an image that is =
substantially similar to a copyrighted image?  I admit this is pretty =
unlikely; on the other hand, is there any form of the ubiquitous =
Mandelbrot set that would be copyrightable; can there be a copyright for =
the image of the Mandelbrot set; who would own it -- Benoit Mandelbrot.

To put all this another way, it seems clear that Ansel Adams has a =
copyright on his photographs.  But if I go to the same location, using =
the same kind of camera and try to duplicate one of his photographs, do =
I violate his copyright?

George Priest
[e-mail]


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4611.1300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This Fractal copyright business has =
always been a=20
matter of interest to me.  What is copyrighted:  the image; =
the par;=20
the frm?  What happens if, using one of the common formulae, I come =
up with=20
an image that is substantially similar to a copyrighted =
image?  I=20
admit this is pretty unlikely; on the other hand, is there any form of =
the=20
ubiquitous Mandelbrot set that would be copyrightable; can there be =

a copyright for the image of the Mandelbrot set; who would own it =
- -- Benoit=20
Mandelbrot.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>To put all this another way, it seems =
clear that=20
Ansel Adams has a copyright on his photographs.  But if I go to the =
same=20
location, using the same kind of camera and try to duplicate one of his=20
photographs, do I violate his copyright?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>George Priest</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></FONT><=
/DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C06F76.C74229C0--


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 22:22:41 -0600
From: Bob Margolis <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Re: reality check

Robin ([e-mail]) wrote:
>
> I think you were very
> unfair to the author in your comments to the list and may even
> have made yourself liable to libel by publlically denouncing him
> as
> having already stolen your work.


Wouldn't you agree that taking someone's property without permission,
then using that property to benefit his personal or financial gain
without recompense in any manner to the original property owner
constitutes theft? It doesn't matter if he later told me of his misdeed,
theft is theft. He gained by using my artwork and that of other artists
to create pretty (?) covers for his CD cases. He could have designed his
own covers, couldn't he?

Am I supposed to be delighted that the recompense he did offer me was in
the form of saying, "Bob, I like liked your artwork so much that I've
decided to use it as a cover for one of my CDs. You should be happy that
I honor you in this manner."?

Am I supposed to trust the man when he says he's making covers for his
personal collection of CDs? What if he's making covers for other people
and collecting money in return? Do you expect him to be straightforward
about it with me? If he took without permission in the first place, he,
IMHO, cannot be trusted to be honest with how he is using the artwork
now.

If this ever happens to you in the future, just remember that you
condoned those acts when they happened to someone else, and you won't
have reason to cry "foul" when you are the victim.


>
> You *cannot* say that someone has stolen your images simply
> by downloading them from a public forum, admiring them and
> putting them in
> their scrapbook.

You are correct in that respect, only if Mr. Miller kept the download
private.. But he did not do so. He created a Web site, albeit a supposed
"dummy" one, where he displayed fractal artwork of mine and other
people's as CD covers, then he announced his deed to me and others,
asking permission only after the fact. The Web site was open to all to
see. There was no lockout device that prevented anybody from entering
the site and viewing the CD covers. That, Robin, is not making private
use of what he downloaded, and that, sir, is where copyright
infringement begins. Please read the laws concerning copyrights
pertaining to artwork. Those laws can be read over the Internet. I am
well versed in them and you should be too, if you want to engage in
discourse with me about Mr. Miller's actions.

> Save such downright rudeness

I'm being rude? Robin, Robin. Have you been drinking a little too much
of the eggnog this season? ;-)

> for those
> who download images then publish a cdrom or open an exhibition
> claiming the work as their own, that's deserving of the title, I
> hope you apologised to him and thanked him for showing
> integrity and respect by not using images when asked not to.
>

Gee, Robin, I hope you never get held up by a stickup guy. You're liable
to apologize to him for allowing yourself to become his target. "I'm
sorry," Robin tells the mugger. "Thank you for choosing me to rob. I am
deeply honored. Now go spend my hard-earned money and enjoy yourself."

Bob

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Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 22:42:45 -0600
From: Bob Margolis <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Re:  Bah Humbug

> George Priest wrote:
>
> This Fractal copyright business has always been a matter of interest
> to me.  What is copyrighted:  the image; the par; the frm?

Under the laws of copyright, formulas cannot be copyrighted. A parameter
file and its resulting image are copyrighted since it is intellectual
property.

>  What
> happens if, using one of the common formulae, I come up with an image
> that is substantially similar to a copyrighted image?  I admit this is
> pretty unlikely; on the other hand, is there any form of the
> ubiquitous Mandelbrot set that would be copyrightable; can there be
> a copyright for the image of the Mandelbrot set; who would own it --
> Benoit Mandelbrot.

The Mandelbrot set is an image derived from the formula and cannot be
copyrighted, just as a sine curve that is derived from a formula cannot
be copyrighted.

What we're talking about here in regards to images is artwork or designs
created from using formulas. The artwork is a manipulation in a
pictorial fashion, and, hence, intellectual property.
>
> To put all this another way, it seems clear that Ansel Adams has a
> copyright on his photographs.  But if I go to the same location, using
> the same kind of camera and try to duplicate one of his photographs,
> do I violate his copyright?

Now you won't violate the copyright, because you would not be able to
make an *exact* duplicate of what he did. You would be taking your
picture at a different time and the scene would surely have changed from
when he took his picture.

Let's rephrase your question. Hypothetically, if you and Ansel Adams
each had the same model camera and stood next to each other taking
pictures of the same scenery, would each person's picture be
copyrighted? The answer is yes. It still won't be the same picture,
however, because the two of you are not standing in the *same* place at
the same time. There would be a small difference in how each picture
looked. I won't get into discussion here as to whether Adams would allow
you to stand next to him as he goes about his job. :-)

Bob

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Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 00:21:44 -0500
From: harry <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Re:  Bah Humbug

George Priest wrote:

> To put all this another way, it seems clear that Ansel Adams has a
> copyright on his photographs.  But if I go to the same location, using
> the same kind of camera and try to duplicate one of his photographs,
> do I violate his copyright?
>
> Absolutely not !!!
>
> H^) harry  (good luck BTW....)
>
>
>
>   George [e-mail]


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Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 23:29:28 -0600
From: "Paul N. Lee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Re:  Request for Black and White Fractals

Paul N. Lee wrote:
>
> ....a special request.....
> __________________________________________________________________
> Sandy Matrai <[e-mail]> wrote:
> >
> > What I am really seeking is Black and White imagery of
> > fractals for my baby.

From those that replied to the discussion lists and/or privately, I
forwarded the information on to Sandy.  And received an email back just
a matter of minutes ago.

Sandy sent thanks for jumping to to aid in the search, also appreciated
the time and effort in helping.  And says, "I will be putting all
the sites refered to to good use."

My thanks to those that responded to the request.

Sincerely,
P.N.L.
- --------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 21:41:52 -0800
From: Kathy Roth <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Re: reality check

Hi Bob
  You are entirely right in your interpretation of copyright
law and I understand why you are angry after your experiences in
the last year.  But there is a whole world out there of music
taping going on, largely with the approval of the musicians
concerned.  It started with the Grateful Dead allowing large scale
taping and trading of their music, as long as no money traded
hands.  Now there is a whole movement of small and medium sized
bands (in popularity) and music festivals where people
openly tape and even hook into the sounboard, and with
digital taping these can be copied and put on CD without
loss of clarity.  I have been following a small band when I am
on vacation and people make tape trees to trade their CD's and
spread the word.  There are a couple of these floating around
with CD covers with photos I have taken at festivals and posted
to the e-mail lists concerned. I took a picture of a couple
where a man proposed to a woman at a music festival in Florida-
they were standing in the crowd in a ray of sunlight- and
someone put a copy of that pic on a CD cover for that festival.
So I think that is the world that the guy who used your fractal
is operating in, and he probably didn't realize you would mind-
which doesn't mean you are wrong about copyright law or not
entitled to your feelings.  Now he knows.  Most people
involved with this are very, very ethical but in an alternative way.
I'm sure he is not making money on the CD's. The Grateful Dead
organisation and lawyers have been very aggressive in pursuing
people who used thier music or images for money.  (In fact
the remaining members have had a major rift about whether
to let the music in the "vault" go out on the internet
for free.)
   Fractals ARE different from music though (and I'm not
talking legally) in that someone could claim your fractal as his
own, while most of the music is instantly recognizable.
Kathy


Bob Margolis wrote:
>
> Robin ([e-mail]) wrote:
> >
> > I think you were very
> > unfair to the author in your comments to the list and may even
> > have made yourself liable to libel by publlically denouncing him
> > as
> > having already stolen your work.
>
> Wouldn't you agree that taking someone's property without permission,
> then using that property to benefit his personal or financial gain
> without recompense in any manner to the original property owner
> constitutes theft? It doesn't matter if he later told me of his misdeed,
> theft is theft. He gained by using my artwork and that of other artists
> to create pretty (?) covers for his CD cases. He could have designed his
> own covers, couldn't he?
>
> Am I supposed to be delighted that the recompense he did offer me was in
> the form of saying, "Bob, I like liked your artwork so much that I've
> decided to use it as a cover for one of my CDs. You should be happy that
> I honor you in this manner."?
>
> Am I supposed to trust the man when he says he's making covers for his
> personal collection of CDs? What if he's making covers for other people
> and collecting money in return? Do you expect him to be straightforward
> about it with me? If he took without permission in the first place, he,
> IMHO, cannot be trusted to be honest with how he is using the artwork
> now.
>
> If this ever happens to you in the future, just remember that you
> condoned those acts when they happened to someone else, and you won't
> have reason to cry "foul" when you are the victim.
>
> >
> > You *cannot* say that someone has stolen your images simply
> > by downloading them from a public forum, admiring them and
> > putting them in
> > their scrapbook.
>
> You are correct in that respect, only if Mr. Miller kept the download
> private.. But he did not do so. He created a Web site, albeit a supposed
> "dummy" one, where he displayed fractal artwork of mine and other
> people's as CD covers, then he announced his deed to me and others,
> asking permission only after the fact. The Web site was open to all to
> see. There was no lockout device that prevented anybody from entering
> the site and viewing the CD covers. That, Robin, is not making private
> use of what he downloaded, and that, sir, is where copyright
> infringement begins. Please read the laws concerning copyrights
> pertaining to artwork. Those laws can be read over the Internet. I am
> well versed in them and you should be too, if you want to engage in
> discourse with me about Mr. Miller's actions.
>
> > Save such downright rudeness
>
> I'm being rude? Robin, Robin. Have you been drinking a little too much
> of the eggnog this season? ;-)
>
> > for those
> > who download images then publish a cdrom or open an exhibition
> > claiming the work as their own, that's deserving of the title, I
> > hope you apologised to him and thanked him for showing
> > integrity and respect by not using images when asked not to.
> >
>
> Gee, Robin, I hope you never get held up by a stickup guy. You're liable
> to apologize to him for allowing yourself to become his target. "I'm
> sorry," Robin tells the mugger. "Thank you for choosing me to rob. I am
> deeply honored. Now go spend my hard-earned money and enjoy yourself."
>
> Bob
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List
> Post Message:   [e-mail]
> Get Commands:   [e-mail] "help"
> Administrator:  [e-mail]
> Unsubscribe:    [e-mail] "unsubscribe fractint"

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End of fractint-digest V1 #520
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