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fractint-digest       Tuesday, February 16 1999       Volume 01 : Number 367




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:59:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Ken Childress <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) The price of fractal software

Tim,

> > Only in the last stage I have added a feature
> > to import Fractint parameter sets. This was possible because the
> > formula compiler can also read Fractint fractal formulas.
> >
> > Thanks to the extensive documentation in Fractint, I was able to
> > do this without looking at the source, just by following the help
> > text and trying some parameter sets to be sure.
>
> However, in a more general way I could have been talking about
> Ultra Fractal. You have benefiting enormously from Fractint in
> developing your concepts to go beyond Fractint. You say as much
> in the quotes above. You have included the functionality of
> Fractint's parser in your program. If you hadn't, it would not be
> possible to run translated formula PARs in Ultra Fractal. (You were
> within your rights to do this).

Doesn't this happen with virtually all competing (similar) programs?

I certainly don't condone stealing of anyone's code, but I see that this
is merely the natural competition between similar programs as they
evolve.  It happens all the time with Netscape/IE, Word/WordPerfect,
etc., etc., etc.

> I find that now the shoe is on the other foot. My programming skills
> have fallen way behind because in my professional life I do non-GUI
> C programming. I have never managed to get myself assigned to do
> any Windows or GUI programming, or even C++. Most of the other
> team members are in a similar situation. Unless we get an infusion
> of new programming blood, or unless someone starts a brand new
> open source project similar to Fractint (but avoids the problems of
> the legacy code and platform), Fractint and what it represents is
> dead.

This would be a shame, but is understandable.  Personally, being tied
to the text based IF is what limits my using Fractint more.  I certainly
love it for generating images from PARs people post, though.

> Where is there a full featured, open source program that is a
> worthy successor to Fractint? There isn't one, as far as I know.

Well, UF could certainly evolve into such a thing, at least on the
Windows platform, though it may not be open source.  One a program
enters into the GUI interface realm, portability suddenly becomes quite
a major task.  Maybe one could study PoVRay to learn what they have done
and apply it to Fractint's future.

> Actually I am very interested in Xaos, which runs on many
> platforms, and has just been ported to Windows. I may shift my
> efforts to working with Xaos, or merging some of Fractint's features
> with Xaos. Xaos, besides being open source, acknowledges
> Fractint generously.

Is there a link to the Windows version?  I haven't been able to find
it.

> I am radically committed to the open source concept. I love Linux,
> POV-Ray, Fractint, and Xaos for this reason. I don't expect anyone
> one else to agree with me. It's just my personal decision. I am not
> even speaking for "Stone Soup" when I say this.

I think these efforts are wonderful.  I hope they are able to continue.
I also understand the reasons why people choose to go the commercial or
shareware routes.

> The bottom line for me is: you have benefited from our thousands of
> hours of work over ten years. We will not benefit from your work
> because your program is not open source. I am not saying you are
> making the wrong decision, or that the situation should be
> otherwise, I am  just saying that it's a fact: we won't be able to
> benefit from your work. We knew this was a possibility going in, we
> took the risk with our eyes wide open, so we can't complain.

I'm not so sure this is totally accurate.  Did Frederik study the source
code?  If not, then you can benefit from UF just as much as he may have
benefitted from Fractint.  One can benefit greatly simply by studying
documentation, help files, UI layout, etc. without having access to the
source.



Ken...















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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:04:06 -0300
From: "Ricardo M. Forno" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Questions about Fractint

Please, anyone up there can help?
I have two questions about Fractint:
1) I have seen parameter files where a background/border in a different
color is drawn, but I can't get one. How is it done?
2) Why many (not all) lyapunov fractals are drawn with the "1" option in
the x screen, in spite of having specified "g"?
Thanks a lot!

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:04:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Ken Childress <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) The price of fractal software

Tim,

> The question then is, should Fractint remain open source, or
> should we not release the source to version 20? Why should we
> write open source, free software, when others will look at our code,
> even ask us questions about specific lines of code, and incorporate
> our new features into their fractint-compatible, commercial, closed
> source program?

People can incorporate your features regardless of the availability of
the source.

Though, to answer your question, I would think the answer might depend
upon whether or not the developers of Fracint want to benefit
financially from their efforts.  Or, at least attempt to.

If your philosophy is to keep the development open, and make the source
available, then you continue to do so out of principle fully realizing
the risk of others studying the code and doing as you might fear.

Either way, I would support your decision.


Ken...



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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:59:40 +0100
From: "Frederik Slijkerman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) The price of fractal software

> Does anyone know if UltraFractal will work under WINE? This would allow
> Linux users to run it...

If anyone can get UF to work with Linux, I would be interested to hear
about it.

Best regards,
Frederik.


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:29:33 +0100
From: "Frederik Slijkerman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) The price of fractal software

Tim,

> I installed Ultrafractal
> yesterday for a quick look, and it is obviously a program with a
> completely different design and implementation.

Ok, thanks. :)

> However, in a more general way I could have been talking about
> Ultra Fractal. You have benefiting enormously from Fractint in
> developing your concepts to go beyond Fractint. You say as much
> in the quotes above. You have included the functionality of
> Fractint's parser in your program. If you hadn't, it would not be
> possible to run translated formula PARs in Ultra Fractal. (You were
> within your rights to do this).

That's true, but this is not due to the availability of the source
code. I can learn from Fractint just by using it and reading the
documentation. In the same fashion other developers can benefit
from Ultra Fractal, even though its source is not available.
People can see how I have extended the formula language, how I
have implemented the interface, etc. The most important design
issues are plainly visible from the outside. And the other decisions
can be made by every decent programmer, I think.

Furthermore, I think it is very difficult to understand source
code written by others (especially if it's not very well commented
:-)). So in my experience it is usually more efficient to write
things yourself than by copying it from others. At least when
you know how to do it.

> Unless we get an infusion
> of new programming blood, or unless someone starts a brand new
> open source project similar to Fractint (but avoids the problems of
> the legacy code and platform), Fractint and what it represents is
> dead.

That's a pity. But I can very well understand that working on
Fractint is not as fun and exciting for you anymore as it as been
ten years ago. Ten years is a long period to work on a project.

> The bottom line for me is: you have benefited from our thousands of
> hours of work over ten years. We will not benefit from your work
> because your program is not open source.

This is not true, as I have pointed out above.

Best regards,
Frederik.


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:07:44 -0500
From: Paul Derbyshire <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Xfractint compilation [Re: (fractint) Xaos]

At 06:20 PM 2/16/99 +0100, you wrote:
>With gcc "2.7.(latest)" I mean the latest 2.7 release.
>
>I have 2.8.1 as well, but as you very well know, it's not that perfect....

EGCS is good, except for a nagging exception bug (this prints a bogus
error: void (*func) (void) throw (); ... Stroustrup 3rd Ed clearly states
that an exception specification on a function pointer is legitimate).

- --
   .*.  "Clouds are not spheres, mountains are not cones, coastlines are not
- -()  <  circles, and bark is not smooth, nor does lightning travel in a
   `*'  straight line."    -------------------------------------------------
        -- B. Mandelbrot  |http://surf.to/pgd.net
_____________________ ____|________     Paul Derbyshire     [e-mail]
Programmer & Humanist|ICQ: 10423848|

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:59:37 -0500
From: Barry N Merenoff <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Re: One of the two questions about Fractint

The option for coloring the boundaries in Boundary Tracing is inaptly nam=
ed
Fill Color. (?!)

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:27:45 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (fractint) Re: One of the two questions about Fractint

In a message dated 2/16/99 2:04:08 PM Mountain Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

> The option for coloring the boundaries in Boundary Tracing is inaptly named
>  Fill Color. (?!)

Umm, that's the color used to fill in the often fairly large spaces outlined
by the boundaries (or the spaces sometimes left with the Tesseral option). "B"
instead of 1, 2, G, etc. sets the Boundary Tracing option. ("T" sets
Tesseral.)

Dama <boundary-tracing fanatic>

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:59:50 -0800
From: John Wilson <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Re: READ THIS NOW.

Hi Clifford,

Sunday, February 14, 1999, you wrote:

CH> Goto http://www.datafellows.com/news/pr/eng/19990129.htm
CH> This is a possible virus. The above link points to a reputable source where
CH> you can find out more. Do yourself a favor and don't run any unsolicated
CH> attachments, ever.

CH> At 08:16 PM 2/14/99 +0000, John Wilson wrote:
>>
>>Attachment Converted: "c:\program files\eudora\attach\Happy99.exe"

And I want to thank you for your input.   I've written to Tim as
follows:

SNIP   xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

As I now have a sterilized machine, I can write this overdue letter.

Firstly I want to apologize for being the unwitting instrument for
the transmission of the Happy99 worm into the Fractint group.

Next, I wish to warn you that this thing is just a little smarter than
Fractint members realize.  As I'm no longer on your list, I am unable
to issue a warning, but may I suggest that you might remind all
members to examine their computer with an up-to-date virus
checker: i.e. one which is aware of late 1998 - 1999 viruses.
 -------------------------------------------------
Incidentally, that worm did not ATTACH to a message, it REPLACED the
following...which was dumped into my "sent" folder.   Note the date;
actually Nature wrote on Feb.13th, and I replied on the 14th.  This
old date effectively hid the message among stuff sent a year ago.

Sunday, December 13, 1998, Nature wrote:

NL>   Well, I was playing with my frm file, and I came up with this
NL> formula. I
NL> don't know if this same mathematical logic has done before; I
NL> don't know all
NL> the frms floating around out there. :-P The parallelogram
NL> structure here is
NL> kinda interesting.

Yes it is, and zooming into the bottom RH corner, plus adding a little
color, produced some remarkable draped corridors for me.  I found this
an interesting fractal, as the actual *drawing* process is visually
fascinating, in some of these zooms.  Closing drapes and rolling
carpets!   Mark's modification of the frm didn't seem to affect the
results significantly!

 John W.

- ----------------------------------------------
Finally, I ask you to please convey to the Fractint group my thanks to
those members of your group who offered constructive and informative
comment on my problem.  Their input enabled me to clean up my two
computers promptly, and was extremely timely, as I was about to e-mail
a large number of people with my e-mail address change.  I bless these
smart guys from the bottom of my heart!

SNIP   xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Thanks again,
John W.
                        mailto:[e-mail]



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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:21:45 -0800
From: John Wilson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re[2]: (fractint) In Which The Mad Lurker Actually Posts A Par

Hello davides,

Sunday, Sunday, February 14, 1999, you wrote:

d> Received from John Wilson the below, in which there was no par, simply the
d> Happy99.exe worm.
d> Tim - remove either Mr. Wilson from this list or me. Your choice.

 (Please read the headers, which you carefully copied.
 Note the ****RE*** at the beginning of the subject.   This indicates that
 my message was a *reply* to that "Mad Lurker" title, and NOT my original).

 I have written to Tim as follows...

 SNIP   xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

As I now have a sterilized machine, I can write this overdue letter.

Firstly I want to apologize for being the unwitting instrument for
the transmission of the Happy99 worm into the Fractint group.

Next, I wish to warn you that this thing is just a little smarter than
Fractint members realize.  As I'm no longer on your list, I am unable
to issue a warning, but may I suggest that you might remind all
members to examine their computer with an up-to-date virus
checker: i.e. one which is aware of late 1998 - 1999 viruses.
 -------------------------------------------------
Incidentally, that worm did not ATTACH to a message, it REPLACED the
following...which was dumped into my "sent" folder.   Note the date;
actually Nature wrote on Feb.13th, and I replied on the 14th.  This
old date effectively hid the message among stuff sent a year ago.

Sunday, December 13, 1998, Nature wrote:

NL>   Well, I was playing with my frm file, and I came up with this
NL> formula. I
NL> don't know if this same mathematical logic has done before; I
NL> don't know all
NL> the frms floating around out there. :-P The parallelogram
NL> structure here is
NL> kinda interesting.

Yes it is, and zooming into the bottom RH corner, plus adding a little
color, produced some remarkable draped corridors for me.  I found this
an interesting fractal, as the actual *drawing* process is visually
fascinating, in some of these zooms.  Closing drapes and rolling
carpets!   Mark's modification of the frm didn't seem to affect the
results significantly!

 John W.

- ----------------------------------------------
Finally, I ask you to please convey to the Fractint group my thanks to
those members of your group who offered constructive and informative
comment on my problem.  Their input enabled me to clean up my two
computers promptly, and was extremely timely, as I was about to e-mail
a large number of people with my e-mail address change.  I bless these
smart guys from the bottom of my heart!

SNIP   xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


John W.                            mailto:[e-mail]



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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:02:36 -0600
From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) (Fwd) An apology

John Wilson informs me that he has now cleaned up his machine,
so I am putting him back on the fractint list. When I took him off
the list after the worm-infected happy99 file sent itself to the list
from his machine, I told him I would put him back on as soon as he
told me his machine was clean.

Here is his note to me. Quite an interesting story. I guess I need
not say this again, but folks should NEVER run an executable
attached to an email message.

Here is another good link telling what to do about the worm.
http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/happy99.worm.html

I hearby declare that (for a few days anyway) further discussion,
and welcome back messages to John, are "on topic".

Tim Wegner

- ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date sent:          Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:32:57 -0800
From:               John Wilson <[e-mail]>
Send reply to:      John Wilson <[e-mail]>
To:                 [e-mail]
Subject:            An apology

As I now have a sterilized machine, I can write this overdue letter.

Firstly I want to apologize for being the unwitting instrument for
the transmission of the Happy99 worm into the Fractint group.

Next, I wish to warn you that this thing is just a little smarter than
Fractint members realize.  As I'm no longer on your list, I am unable
to issue a warning, but may I suggest that you might remind all
members to examine their computer with an up-to-date virus
checker: i.e. one which is aware of late 1998 - 1999 viruses.
 -------------------------------------------------
Incidentally, that worm did not ATTACH to a message, it REPLACED the
following...which was dumped into my "sent" folder.   Note the date;
actually Nature wrote on Feb.13th, and I replied on the 14th.  This
old date effectively hid the message among stuff sent a year ago.

Sunday, December 13, 1998, Nature wrote:

NL>   Well, I was playing with my frm file, and I came up with this
NL> formula. I
NL> don't know if this same mathematical logic has done before; I
NL> don't know all
NL> the frms floating around out there. :-P The parallelogram
NL> structure here is
NL> kinda interesting.

Yes it is, and zooming into the bottom RH corner, plus adding a little
color, produced some remarkable draped corridors for me.  I found this
an interesting fractal, as the actual *drawing* process is visually
fascinating, in some of these zooms.  Closing drapes and rolling
carpets!   Mark's modification of the frm didn't seem to affect the
results significantly!

 John W.

- ----------------------------------------------
Finally, I ask you to please convey to the Fractint group my thanks to
those members of your group who offered constructive and informative
comment on my problem.  Their input enabled me to clean up my two
computers promptly, and was extremely timely, as I was about to e-mail
a large number of people with my e-mail address change.  I bless these
smart guys from the bottom of my heart!

John W.                          mailto:[e-mail]



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 01:35:30 +0000
From: "Pedro A. O. Lopes" <[e-mail]>
Subject: GUIs and the future of Fractint (was: Re: (fractint) The price of  fractal software)

Ken Childress wrote:
>
> Tim,
>
> (...)
>
> > I find that now the shoe is on the other foot. My programming skills
> > have fallen way behind because in my professional life I do non-GUI
> > C programming. I have never managed to get myself assigned to do
> > any Windows or GUI programming, or even C++. Most of the other
> > team members are in a similar situation. Unless we get an infusion
> > of new programming blood, or unless someone starts a brand new
> > open source project similar to Fractint (but avoids the problems of
> > the legacy code and platform), Fractint and what it represents is
> > dead.
>
> This would be a shame, but is understandable.  Personally, being tied
> to the text based IF is what limits my using Fractint more.  I certainly
> love it for generating images from PARs people post, though.

I agree that fractint must break free of DOS if it is going to keep up
with the host of fractal programs that are out there. I really think the
best way to do this would be to throw all UI related stuff out, leaving
the "core" functionality to be accessed through a well defined programming
interface (something like set_parameter(...) / get_parameter(...) /
execute_command(...) ). Then, in good Open Source style, anyone could
volunteer to support a GUI as a front end to this library, for any variety
of environments, more or less independently of the core fractint
development.

Of course any changes of this kind will probably require a big
reorganization of the code, and some careful design (easier said than
done...). Judging from what I remember of the fractint source (during a
hunt for a piece of code I wanted to borrow, no less...) this may not be
easy - it's pretty hairy stuff - globals everywhere, DOS related niceties
such as overlays...

As for GUI programming it's not that big a deal. I guess a simple Windows
interface with the same functionality as the one fractint currently has
would be pretty simple to do. I've never programmed for X-Windows, but it
shouldn't be any more difficult.

I certainly don't think fractint is dead. Maybe it has fallen behind
a little in terms display related features, but it's still the most
complete and powerful fractal program IMO. I keep reading things like
"yeah, I do most exploring in fractint and then I import the par into
XXXX for coloring and retouching...". As for "what it represents" if you
mean Open Source, I think it's never been more alive!


> > Where is there a full featured, open source program that is a
> > worthy successor to Fractint? There isn't one, as far as I know.
>
> Well, UF could certainly evolve into such a thing, at least on the
> Windows platform, though it may not be open source.  One a program
> enters into the GUI interface realm, portability suddenly becomes quite
> a major task.  Maybe one could study PoVRay to learn what they have done
> and apply it to Fractint's future.

That's one of the biggest advantages of the approach I suggested above:
if you keep the GUI well separated, the rest of the C code will tend to
be pretty standard and easily portable - although the heavy use of
assembly might complicate things (at least it will make non x86 ports
impossible).


> (...)
>
> > I am radically committed to the open source concept. I love Linux,
> > POV-Ray, Fractint, and Xaos for this reason. I don't expect anyone
> > one else to agree with me. It's just my personal decision. I am not
> > even speaking for "Stone Soup" when I say this.

We seem to have similar tastes in sofware :)
Linux and Pov-Ray are perhaps the best examples of how far the Open
Source model can go, and Fractint is not very far behind. If the DOS
lock-in can be broken once and for all, and there are enough people
wanting to use it (I must believe there are), then there will also be
people willing to keep the project going.

> (...)
>


- --

- ----------------------
  Pedro A. O. Lopes
([e-mail])
- ----------------------
Yo-yo: Something occasionally up but normally down (see also "computer")
- ----------------------

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:26:19 -0500
From: "Morgen H Bell" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Fractint in DOS

I like Fractint better than any of my Windows-based fractal generators
because working with the keyboard is faster than using the mouse.  I think
Fractint in windows would be great as long as it kept all the keyboard
shortcut commands.
                                            Morgen

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Orion/4798


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:49:28 -0800
From: John Wilson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint)   An apology (2)

Hello Tim,

Tuesday, February 16, 1999, you wrote:

TW> Here is his note to me. Quite an interesting story. I guess I need
TW> not say this again, but folks should NEVER run an executable
TW> attached to an email message.
.
.
TW> I hearby declare that (for a few days anyway) further discussion,
TW> and welcome back messages to John, are "on topic".

Here's the sequence of events that led to disaster...

Firstly, my wife and I run separate stations, with separate ISP
accounts.  I'm in the process of changing both, from Netpointer to
Attcanada.

I'm also in the process of changing my mailer from Outlook Express to
"The Bat".

During part of the checkout of the systems, I went over to my spouse's
computer, grabbed a file...any large file...and sent it over to my
station.  Then I returned to my own computer and checked my attcanada
mail for a message from netpointer.   All was well, and a file had
arrived.

Happy99???  Oh, that must have been a New Years card that my wife had
received...Hmmmm, singularly uninteresting CGA-type fireworks
reminiscent of old Apple II graphics...dump it.

Now back to Fractint...Soon I had 54 messages of pain and outrage, and
Nature Leseul's humorous Subject heading looked particularly bad in
context!  I took the advice of Fractint experts, and downloaded
F-SECURE Anti-Virus by Data Fellows Ltd., with their Happy99 update.
This cleaned up both systems promptly, after I had bungled a manual
cleanup on my own system.

Lessons learned;

1.  Don't trust even your wife's computer files!  Apparently that
    thing had been in her computer since the New Year, unopened.  (It
    apparently went un-noticed in many computers around January 1)  I
    was the fool who sent it to my system, and then opened it.  Our
    out-of-date McAfee didn't even notice this worm.

2.  Don't be complacent if your virus checker is more than a few
    months old.

3.  In my case, Happy99 did NOT attach itself to a message...it
    completely dumped my message into the "SENT" folder, and used just
    the address to send itself to Fractint.  It also appears to have
    changed the date "Created", from February 14, 1999, to sometime in
    1998,  (unless, Nature Leseul's clock is incorrect???).   This
    effectively hid the "sent" file back in history.

4.  The manual cleanup procedure is tricky.   WIN95 wouldn't let me
    delete the infected wsock32.dll and replace it with a renamed
    wsock32.ska.   This has to be done in DOS mode.   I stumbled
    during the swap/rename/delete procedure, and ended up re-installing
    WIN95 to ensure that I had the *correct* file!  I am not normally
    a person given to intemperate language, but I will confess to a
    certain immoderation before my computer was back on line.

In conclusion, I apologize again, abjectly, for letting this thing
loose in Fractint.   Please check your computers for those tell-tale
.SKA files in your WIN System folder...I wouldn't wish this on anyone
else.

John W.



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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:49:56 -0500
From: davides <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) (Fwd) An apology

At 07:02 PM 2/16/1999 -0600, you wrote:
>John Wilson informs me that he has now cleaned up his machine,
>Here is his note to me. Quite an interesting story.

>I hearby declare that (for a few days anyway) further discussion,
>and welcome back messages to John, are "on topic".
>
>Tim Wegner
>From:               John Wilson <[e-mail]>
>Send reply to:      John Wilson <[e-mail]>
>To:                 [e-mail]
>Subject:            An apology
>
>As I now have a sterilized machine, I can write this overdue letter.
>
>Firstly I want to apologize for being the unwitting instrument for
>the transmission of the Happy99 worm into the Fractint group.

(Snipped)

I would like to be among the first to welcome Mr. Wilson back, and to also
offer an apology for flying off the end as I did. By way of explanation, I
would mention that I had received that worm twice at home, more times at
work, and had gotten a little ticked off at the situation.

So... I imagine I offended Mr. Wilson and probably others; I again
apologize for being most unconstructive.






[e-mail]
[e-mail]
Back up my hard drive?
How do I put it in reverse?

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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:16:29 -0600
From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) The price of fractal software

Hi Frederik,

> > However, in a more general way I could have been talking about
> > Ultra Fractal. You have benefiting enormously from Fractint in
> > developing your concepts to go beyond Fractint. You say as much
> > in the quotes above. You have included the functionality of
> > Fractint's parser in your program. If you hadn't, it would not be
> > possible to run translated formula PARs in Ultra Fractal. (You were
> > within your rights to do this).
>
> That's true, but this is not due to the availability of the source
> code. I can learn from Fractint just by using it and reading the
> documentation.

Sure you can. You don't see my point, maybe I didn't explain it
well. Fractint is the result of contributions from many people.
People cannot and will not contribute to closed source commercial
programs except in a very general way (unless, of course, you
make them partners). It is precisely because Fractint is open
source that it developed into something full featured enough that
you would want to emulate it.

The parser is in Fractint because Mark Peterson put it there, and
Chuck Ebbert and George Martin extended it. They were able to do
that only because Fractint is open source.

Ultra Fractal then implemented the result of their work. The fact
that you did it without reference to the source is irrelevant.
(remember I am not accusing you of doing anything wrong.)

> In the same fashion other developers can benefit
> from Ultra Fractal, even though its source is not available.

I don't see the point here. We are inundated with mail about ideas
for doing things in Fractint (have you seen the Fractint Wish List
Web page?). We don't need ideas. We already have more ideas
than we can implement. We need help from people who can
contribute implementation.

> Furthermore, I think it is very difficult to understand source
> code written by others (especially if it's not very well commented
> :-)).

Difficult for some, easy for others. I used to get email every week
from hotshot students who would ask "where is Fractint's source? I
will port it to Unix by next Tuesday." Bert Tyler's joke is that
Fractint was the Bermuda triangle of porting efforts. Of course I
never heard from any of these hotshot students again. Then one
day I got an email from Ken Shirriff, saying "I have ported Fractint
to Unix. How can I send you the code?" <grin!> There are
teenagers who have mastered Fractint's code and sent us major
contributions. It is a strange fact of intellectual life that each of us
has a unique set of problems that are easy  or are hard for us. I
could tell you stories like that about many different contributors.

>So in my experience it is usually more efficient to write
> things yourself than by copying it from others. At least when
> you know how to do it.

I have met programmers who share your preference, particularly
when they are very expert on a platform.

> > Unless we get an infusion
> > of new programming blood, or unless someone starts a brand new
> > open source project similar to Fractint (but avoids the problems of
> > the legacy code and platform), Fractint and what it represents is
> > dead.
>
> That's a pity. But I can very well understand that working on
> Fractint is not as fun and exciting for you any more as it as been
> ten years ago. Ten years is a long period to work on a project.

No, it is just as fun and exciting as ever. The problem is the aging
platform. We have squeezed an amazing amount into the medium
model of Fractint, but we near a dead end. It is a very non-trivial
matter to move from conventional C programming to Windows
programming. I could do it if I had the opportunity to learn at work.
Then programming Fractint in my spare time under Windows would
be easy. I don't have time to learn WIndows programming outside
of work.

I haven't given up. There are many ways to go.  I may even become
a decent Windows programmer before I die :-)

> > The bottom line for me is: you have benefited from our thousands of
> > hours of work over ten years. We will not benefit from your work
> > because your program is not open source.
>
> This is not true, as I have pointed out above.

We have a different perspective on this. We can respectfully agree
to disagree.

My view is that open source, international teamwork, and "Stone
Soup" is the essence of what Fractint is. I'm not surprised that a
bright programmer with expertise on a modern platform can recast
the functionality of fractint into a more modern architecture. I am
just selfish enough that I wish someone would do that while
continuing the Fractint open source legacy. Then I might even
contribute to it or be part of the team!

But as I said before, the fact that I hold this opinion doesn't mean
that you are bound by it. Team freeware programming is not for
everyone. Only those of us who are idealistic and crazy.

The Fractint team is still having a blast putzing around with their
baby. I've been threatening for weeks to just release our current
developer version as a "public beta" we may just up and do that.

Tim Wegner



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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:16:29 -0600
From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) The price of fractal software

Ken wrote:

> People can incorporate your features regardless of the availability of
> the source.

They sure can. But the features would never have been developed if
the program weren't open source. I can't get excited about
commercial fractal programs, although the artists might have a
different point of view.

BTW you'd be amazed how little the Fractint artists look at other
programns. The main reason is that we have been kept busy with
our own imagination and integrating contributions, so we don't look
at other programs. Our problem now is the weight of legacy code in
an old environment that does not excite younger programmers.

> Though, to answer your question, I would think the answer might depend
> upon whether or not the developers of Fracint want to benefit
> financially from their efforts.  Or, at least attempt to.

Some of us did benefit financially via writing books, but we paid a
price: Fractint's progress slowed. Quite frankly, I don't think there
is significant money to be made in a shareware or  commercial
fractal program. But never say never, someone with the right
concept and marketing plan might succeed.

> If your philosophy is to keep the development open, and make the source
> available, then you continue to do so out of principle fully realizing
> the risk of others studying the code and doing as you might fear.

Exactly. We made this decision a long time ago.

Tim


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