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fractint Digest        Friday, October 24 1997        Volume 01 : Number 039



In this issue:

    (fractint) re: potential max color problem
    Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
    Re: (fractint) genetic algorithm for fractal formulas
    Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
    Re: (fractint) genetic algorithm for fractal formulas
    Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
    Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
    Re: (fractint) genetic algorithm for fractal formulas
    Re: (fractint) genetic algorithm for fractal formulas
    Re: (fractint) re: potential max color problem
    Re: (fractint) problem with par files
    Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
    (fractint) my site
    RE: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
    (fractint) Re: (Formulas in images (was JPEG suitability for fractals )
    Re: (fractint) problem with par files
    Re: (fractint) printing fractint
    Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals
    Re: (fractint) my site
    Re: (fractint) Re: (Formulas in images (was JPEG suitability for fractals )
    (fractint) help
    Re: (fractint) help
    Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals

See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the fractint
or fractint-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:41:45 -0400
From: Gedeon Peteri <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) re: potential max color problem

These options do not work will all formula and parameter combinations,
moreover, sometimes they work with float=no, sometimes with float=yes,
sometimes with both, sometimes with neither.  Possibly your problem is
not with Fractint, but with your choice of parameters and formulas.
Have you tried several?  I have no idea why this is so.  Perhaps some of
our resident experts at Fractint programming can explain it.  I would
certainly be interested in hearing it.
Gedeon.


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:45:18 PST
From: NOEL_GIFFIN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals

Steven Covey wrote:

> I thought about it a little more and you CAN finish a partially
> computed image that was stored as JPEG.  There is nothing in JPEG that
> would prevent this capability.  There's nothing different from GIF in
> this respect.

Well that's interesting, maybe you could enlighten me here. I know that
GIF and PNG are compressed bitmaps, but JPG isn't. Restarting a partial
image in fractint is currently done by scanning the bitmap for the
first uncalculated bit. I thought a bitmap created by decompressing a
jpg image would have artifacts that would make locating this point
difficult. Yes you could save the last calculated position in a comment
block, but wouldn't there still be differences in the image
induced by edge artifacts? Would a restarted image be exactly the
same as one left to completion in a single pass? These were my
assumptions about JPG, but I would be glad to here differently.

    Noel Giffin

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:41:24 -0700
From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) genetic algorithm for fractal formulas

On 10/22/97 Rich Thomson wrote:
>Since fractint allows you to write arbitrary formulas for fractals,
>has anyone considered writing a program that uses genetic
>algorithm techniques to "invent" formulas for fractint?

Such a procedure would require systematic parameterization
of the formula space (frm) and perhaps also the image space
(par).  If I used a 'seed' fed into a hash function (to fill out the
bytes expressing the above parameterizations) then I could
quickly observe never seen before awsome fractal images.

Then I foresee the fractint art list reading like this...

> Jim, your f(9348728) was fab.
> And f(3456185) Oooo.  Aaahhh.
> But I don't know about your f(348123). Yawn!
>
> Tom wrote:
>>What am I doing wrong? Your f(34287) gives me
>> a blank screen.
> Of course that does. I said f(34288). Everone knows
> f(34287) is blank.
>
>John, please remove f(6533267) from your page,
> I copyrighted that last month!

  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)
:-)  :-)


Jay



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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:56:09 -0600
From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals

In article <[e-mail]> ,
    NOEL_GIFFIN <[e-mail]>  writes:
> Steven Covey wrote:

Pardon me, but my name isn't Steven Covey.  Are you just making a
mistake, or are you trying to be adversarial?

> Well that's interesting, maybe you could enlighten me here. I know that
> GIF and PNG are compressed bitmaps, but JPG isn't. Restarting a partial
> image in fractint is currently done by scanning the bitmap for the
> first uncalculated bit.

It must record the last calculated position in the image because even
with GIF files it doesn't always start EXACTLY at the last calculated
pixel.  I recently had an image that wouldn't progress because I had
the savetime set for 10 minutes.  Fractint would be grinding away and
then hit the 10 minute timer and save the image.  It then would
continue as if it had just loaded the partially complete image.  This
caused it to actually back up a few scanlines.  You can guess why it
never made any progress... it took longer than 10 minutes to compute
enough scanlines to convince fractint that it should start farther
down in the image.

At any rate, JPEG files are conceptually groups of 8x8 pixel blocks.
So you just record which blocks are complete when you write out a
partial image.  When you read the image back in, you compute the
remaining 8x8 blocks.

> Yes you could save the last calculated position in a comment
> block, but wouldn't there still be differences in the image
> induced by edge artifacts?

No.

> Would a restarted image be exactly the
> same as one left to completion in a single pass?

Yes.
- --
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:58:58 -0600
From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) genetic algorithm for fractal formulas

In article <[e-mail]> ,
    "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>  writes:
> On 10/22/97 Rich Thomson wrote:
> >Since fractint allows you to write arbitrary formulas for fractals,
> >has anyone considered writing a program that uses genetic
> >algorithm techniques to "invent" formulas for fractint?
>
> Such a procedure would require systematic parameterization
> of the formula space (frm) and perhaps also the image space
> (par). [...]

First, let me back up a little.  Are you familiar with genetic
algorithm techniques?  Becuase the parameterizatio nof the formula
space is already there.  There is a grammar for all valid formulas,
and there is also a grammar for all valid PAR specifications.  GA
techniques can be used to breed different formulas -- all of which are
valid members of the formula grammar.  As for the PAR specifications,
that would probably be better explored separately from the GA idea,
similar to the evolver that's being worked on.
- --
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:51:17 PST
From: NOEL_GIFFIN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals

Rich Thompson wrote:

> Pardon me, but my name isn't Steven Covey.  Are you just making a
> mistake, or are you trying to be adversarial?

 Sorry Rich, an honest mistake. I took the first name that I saw
in the sig.

> It must record the last calculated position in the image because even
> with GIF files it doesn't always start EXACTLY at the last calculated
> pixel.  I recently had an image that wouldn't progress because I had
> the savetime set for 10 minutes.  Fractint would be grinding away and
> then hit the 10 minute timer and save the image.  It then would
> continue as if it had just loaded the partially complete image.  This
> caused it to actually back up a few scanlines.  You can guess why it
> never made any progress... it took longer than 10 minutes to compute
> enough scanlines to convince fractint that it should start farther
> down in the image.

    I usually calculate in single pass mode, so it only recalculates
the unfinished line. This can still be a long time though. I'm still
not clear on why recalculating this partial line is necessary.

> At any rate, JPEG files are conceptually groups of 8x8 pixel blocks.
> So you just record which blocks are complete when you write out a
> partial image.  When you read the image back in, you compute the
> remaining 8x8 blocks.

    Ah! That's interesting. I can see how that would work, and I
can imagine how some of those annoying artifacts are introduced with this
8x8 bit block structure. I never meant to imply that JPG format was
good for nothing. I just think it isn't optimum for fractals. If I
had to pick one format to use, it wouldn't be that one. Yes, you could
add more than one output format to Fractint, but I would hate to see
most people choosing jpg for output just because it is widely used and
has good compression. I personally would rather see people post images
in a lossless image format. That way I can trust what I'm looking at to
be truly fractal down to the pixel level. Maybe this seems silly and
somewhat picky to some, but that is my preference. I also argue with lots
of people about anti-aliasing for similar reasons. I think it's a useful
option, but I wouldn't want to see it become the standard that everyone
uses by default. I probably shouldn't have opened that can of worms as
it's already been kicked around on both this list and the fractal-art
list. I just tend to like things simple and I want to know that if
someone posts a fractal image, that it hasn't gone through too much
processing. I'm not trying to make you or anyone else on this list
wrong, if they don't agree with me, I'm just stating my opinions. I feel
if I don't speak out, then JPG and anti-aliasing might become the
default method, without the option to choose differently. I think that
would be a mistake.

    Noel Giffin




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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:05:05 -0600
From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals

In article <[e-mail]> ,
    NOEL_GIFFIN <[e-mail]>  writes:
>  Sorry Rich, an honest mistake. I took the first name that I saw
> in the sig.

OK, no biggie :)

>     I usually calculate in single pass mode, so it only recalculates
> the unfinished line. This can still be a long time though. I'm still
> not clear on why recalculating this partial line is necessary.

Me neither... I think its most likely explained by programmer sloth
:).  You know the three rules of programming:

    1. Don't do it
    2. Don't do it again
    3. Sometimes you have to break rule 1. :)

> [...] I feel
> if I don't speak out, then JPG and anti-aliasing might become the
> default method, without the option to choose differently. I think that
> would be a mistake.

We are in full agreement there.  As I said, my philosophy is "tools
not rules".  I'd like to see the user have the choice of: PNG, GIF and
JPEG.  And for what its worth, I'd like to see them supported in that
order :).  PNG is the clear successor to GIF in that it has lossless
compression and efficient encoding of both 8-bit and 24-bit images and
maybe more importantly it has genuine alpha channel and gamma correction
support.  There is also a place for JPEG, especially once we start
getting away from the classic "level set" fractals and into the more
varied world of 24-bit fractals and continuous shading where JPEG
artifacts are less noticeable.
- --
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:07:36 -0700
From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) genetic algorithm for fractal formulas

Rich Thomson,
> First, let me back up a little.  Are you familiar with genetic
> algorithm techniques?  Because the parameterization of
> the formula space is already there.

Yes, I have read materials on this subject.  If you stick too
close to reality, the humor is gone.    :-)    I was just trying
to describe a no-brainer way to drive the algorithm and
get pictures out.

Having to actually write a formula, well, ah, ...  ;-)

More seriously, this technique could be put into a screen saver
and we'd have wild pictures endlessly.  In fact, it might produce
the most strikingly beautiful image and there might not  be
anyone there to see it.

Reminds me of the Tonight Show debates where Ed and Johnny
argued about a tree falling in a forest. If no one is there, does it
make a sound?

If a screen saver makes a beautiful image and no one is there
to see it, is the image art?

I guess the computer would be the judge.  When you stop the
screen saver by moving the mouse, or whatever, the screen
saver should show briefly the best image found (according
to the computer) since the saver was initiated.

Come to think of it, a genetic algorithm technique to
"invent" formulas would need an objective function to
evaluate each candidate formula.  That might be: it must
find at least one image which passes some artistic criteria.
Given the n dimensional space needed to describe
an image, aside from the formula. That is a nice
challenge.  Especially given that sometimes it is the
color scheme which turns a mess into a nice image.

Anyway, I don't see right off how you can separate the
formula search from the image parameter part.  The
optimization should judge based on criteria similar to
what we use.  Jim Muth's Fractal of the Day is selected
by him based on finding a good image. If a formula
does not give him a good image, he moves on.
Sometimes he may go back to an old rejected formula,
but we won't hear of it if he doesn't find a good image.

Jay



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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:32:13 -0600
From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) genetic algorithm for fractal formulas

In article <[e-mail]> ,
    "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>  writes:
> Come to think of it, a genetic algorithm technique to
> "invent" formulas would need an objective function to
> evaluate each candidate formula.  That might be: it must
> find at least one image which passes some artistic criteria.
> Given the n dimensional space needed to describe
> an image, aside from the formula. That is a nice
> challenge.  Especially given that sometimes it is the
> color scheme which turns a mess into a nice image.

Yes, the number of possible combinations and pictures is truly mind
boggling!  However, it was just something I thought up the other day
and wondered if anyone else has had thoughts along those lines.  I
envisioned the GA generating a bunch of images overnight and having
some person apply an aesthetic "fitness" judgment on the images: this
one dies, that one lives, etc.  After all that, the program takes the
surviving entities and uses them as feed stock for the next pass of
the GA.  Iterations would be tedious, but as you say it would be
difficult to write a program that could evaluate the images.

> Anyway, I don't see right off how you can separate the
> formula search from the image parameter part.

Just thinking of how one might do it with the way fractint works now.
The GA program is just something that takes some inputs and generates
a .FRM file.  It might also generate a minimal .PAR file, since some
things like formula parameters and bailout values can be selected by
parameters.  However, the GA program could just as easily hard-code
these values into the formula.  This would mean that the formulas
wouldn't be parameterized like many of the formula types we have now.

For instance, the formula z := z^n + c, is really a "family" of
formulas, where you can vary the parameter n.  The GA code could just
pick a value of N and fix it for any individual instance of a formula.
If it took that approach, then the PAR file would control things like
coloring, color maps, iteration count, etc.  The fundamental structure
is determined by the formula -- and hence by the GA, but the visual
attributes of the rendering are controlled by the user with a set of
"favorite" PAR file commands.

Is this making more sense now?  Just the idea that the formula parser
can handle arbitrary expressions of complex numbers made me think:
"How do I think up these expressions?  Its tedious... why not have a
program think them up?"  Naturally, there are plenty of expressions
allowed by the formula parser's grammar that don't produce any
interesting images.  Things like z=1.5 aren't very interesting at all
:).  So I suppose you could write the GA such that it recognized
classes of "interesting" formulas and didn't generate boring ones like
z=constant.

> The
> optimization should judge based on criteria similar to
> what we use.  Jim Muth's Fractal of the Day is selected
> by him based on finding a good image. If a formula
> does not give him a good image, he moves on.
> Sometimes he may go back to an old rejected formula,
> but we won't hear of it if he doesn't find a good image.

Yep.... what I was idly pontificating was the ability to have a
program that generates possibly interesting formulas instead of having
to think them up.  Just one more step in making all those parameters
and options in fractint work on "autopilot", if you will... :)
- --
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:03:01 EDT
From: Bill at NY <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) re: potential max color problem

In a message dated 97-10-24 18:47:15 EDT, you write:

<<
 These options do not work will all formula and parameter combinations,
 moreover, sometimes they work with float=no, sometimes with float=yes,
 sometimes with both, sometimes with neither.  Possibly your problem is
 not with Fractint, but with your choice of parameters and formulas.
 Have you tried several?  I have no idea why this is so.  Perhaps some of
 our resident experts at Fractint programming can explain it.  I would
 certainly be interested in hearing it.
 Gedeon.

  >>

Gedeon,

Thanks for the quick response, but I know this is not the problem.  These are
formulas and parameters which I created under DOS on a Windows 3.1 machine.  I
know that they should work.  It seems to have something to do with my new
Windows 95 Pentium II.

Bill

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:57:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) problem with par files

>
>I noticed that I get par files posted by others as well as my own with
>some lines, particularly the color lines, double spaced.  My own par
>files I posted just a short time ago looked fine here when I sent them,
>but when the list returned them to me, some of the lines were double
>spaced. Fractint will not recognize the colors if copied in this way.  I
>had to go and delete the empty lines, then everything worked just fine.
>Surely this is no big deal, but I am wondering if there is a way around
>this, or whether others are experiencing similar problems too.  Would it
>not be better, for example, to post parameter files as an attachment?
>Generally speaking, what is the form of posting preferred by the list?
>Gedeon

NOOO! Not attachments. Some people (I for one) using text-oriented mail
software can't decode attachments.

- --
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:25:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals

>There's no reason all of these things couldn't be included in every
>fractint saved image.  No reason that is, except programmer time and
>available memory in the medium programming model :)

Medium mmory this, medium memory that, you're constraining yourselves too
much. There are 32 bit flat model development environments. Some are free,
notably DJGPP which is good and has a big user base/tool/software
base, Cygwin32 which doesn't, and GNU CC on various Unices and Linux.
(DJGPP is Gnu CC in fact, but on DOS.) For these, to do fractals or
Fractint well requires a minimal graphics library (putpixel and mode
setting at least) and preferably, assembly. DJGPP permits assembly modules
made with NASM (also free, 32 bit etc.) to be linked in. It has an inline
assembly too, but this requires the use of AT&T syntax (NASM uses Intel).
The library Allegro provides putpixels and mode setters and other fancier
features, is essentially free and similarly easy to obtain by 'net. On
Linux Allegro will soon be available, and there is GCC and its AT&T
assembly. In Windows, Windows supplies the graphics API and graphics
calls, and I have no idea about assembly code there.


- --
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:12:30 -0700
From: cindy mitchell <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) my site

Hi Everyone,
I've been enjoying the list for sometime and have learned quite a bit. I
would like to invite you to visit my site The Fractal Lady at -
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/1195/
Will appreciate your comments. I would also like to know how it displays
using IE?

       Thank You,
               Cindy "The Fractal Lady"


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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:26:18 -0600
From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals

Noel wrote:

> Why would anyone ever want to use jpeg to store fractal images if PNG
> format is available.

This is my opinion also. In any case, the current DOS fractint will
never support jpeg because there's not room. I'm not ripping out
integer math to make room for jpeg!

If users want it, and some programmer is willing to do the work and
we all decide that it doesn't bloat fractint too much, we could add
jpeg after Fractint is safely in a roomier development environment
such as Win95.

IMHO the best approach is to save the image losslessly in a format
that supports both palette-based and truecolor images. That's PNG.
Users can convert the image to JPEG with one of the many programs
that do that sort of thing (Paintshop Pro, Graphics Workshop, Thumbs
Plus etc. )

I know that some others feel Fractint should support more formats, so
it is a possibility, my opinion notwithstanding <g!>.

Tim





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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:26:18 -0600
From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Re: (Formulas in images (was JPEG suitability for fractals )

Rich said, concerning saving formulas in images:

> No reason that is, except programmer time and
> available memory in the medium programming model :)

Neither one of these is a big issue. The DOS fractint would have no
trouble storing formulas with images, and it wouldn't take a lot of
programmer time to do.

I can see some value in this, but on the negative side it's not good
to duplicate formulas all over the place. It represents the ultimate
non-normalized database. For this reason it has seemed to me better
to maintain collections of formulas in one place on each artist's
machine.

My feeling is a natural time to consider this is when we move to PNG,
and will be redesigning how data is stored in fractals anyway. I'm
open to the suggestion to have the formula be part of the image.
Maybe it should be optional. If you make 1000 images from one
formula, you's be storing the formula 1000 times. The only time it
makes sense is when you are distributing the image and want it to be
self-contained.

Tim



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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:26:18 -0600
From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) problem with par files

> I'll let Tim set the tone for the list as a whole, but I suggested
> posting PAR files as attachments on fractal-art and the subscribers
> there shot it down.  Apparently people prefer the tedious hand-editing
> you've described.

I don't know what to say. Attachments have the advantage of not
scrambling PAR files, but many readers find them irritating or
inaccessible. But it is also irritating to have a PAR scrambled in
a message.

I think message style is fairly hard to legislate, but if a clear
consensus emerges, I can put a suggestion in the list charter.

One style habit that is appreciated is to quote messages sparsly,
and write messages that fit in one screen. makes it easy to read
through the list quickly without scrolling..

Tim



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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:26:18 -0600
From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) printing fractint

> I think it would be
> too bad to eliminate the built-in formulae because it enables computer neophytes to do
> some really interesting things.

Don't worry. I was just throwing out the idea of eliminating built-in
types for discussion. The idea didn't fly. The point of accessibility
of fractint to beginners was one of the important points in favor of
keeping the built-in types.

We do have a consensus to remove integer math, pending only an
evaluation of a prototype to see if it is OK.

Tim




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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:26:18 -0600
From: "Tim Wegner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals

Rich said:

> I'd like the PAR file information to be saved as a text string to the
> image instead of an application-specific binary block.

This is exactly the plan, except I don't want to put the information
in a comment block, because then the contents won't be reliable.
Anyone can edit a comment, possibly in ways that would break
fractint's ability to read it.

I have reserved an application-specific chunk name for fractal
information in PNG files. My suggestion is to put fractal information
in text form in the chunk. We'll have a thorough discussion with
interested parties before committing to details.

Fractint could have an option to write fractal information in a
conventional comment if users want it. I just don't want that to be
the info that fractint itself uses.

Tim

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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:30:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) my site

>
>Hi Everyone,
>I've been enjoying the list for sometime and have learned quite a bit. I
>would like to invite you to visit my site The Fractal Lady at -
>http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/1195/
>Will appreciate your comments. I would also like to know how it displays
>using IE?

Don't you have Internet Exploder? Surely you're not using NETSCRAP?! That
thing GPFs as frequently as it loads images on webpages.

>               Cindy "The Fractal Lady"

:)

- --
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:35:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Re: (Formulas in images (was JPEG suitability for fractals )

>
>Rich said, concerning saving formulas in images:
>
>> No reason that is, except programmer time and
>> available memory in the medium programming model :)
>
>Neither one of these is a big issue. The DOS fractint would have no
>trouble storing formulas with images, and it wouldn't take a lot of
>programmer time to do.
>
>I can see some value in this, but on the negative side it's not good
>to duplicate formulas all over the place. It represents the ultimate
>non-normalized database.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
DON'T REMIND ME!
I've just been reading my brains out about fourth normal form because of a
comp sci midterm coming up and now I want to relax on a Friday night!
:-)

>My feeling is a natural time to consider this is when we move to PNG,
>and will be redesigning how data is stored in fractals anyway. I'm
>open to the suggestion to have the formula be part of the image.
>Maybe it should be optional. If you make 1000 images from one
>formula, you's be storing the formula 1000 times. The only time it
>makes sense is when you are distributing the image and want it to be
>self-contained.

Mostly agreed.

BTW are there any image conversion/manipulation apps that preserve custom
chunks? PSP doesn't, I know, even if you save it back as the same
filetype. Hypothetically the best paint/image app possible would allow hex
editing and text editing of the darn things as well as preservation and
some way of including it verbatim in other formats, possibly changing the
chunk-name to whatever you name custom chunks in the format.

- --
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 04:15:09 +0900
From: Hussein Karam <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) help

I'm a Ph.D. student and I want to know the open problems in fractal,
and its application, because I'm interested in.

Regards,
- --
Name    :   Hussein Karam

Address :   Tokyo Institute of Technology
            Computer Science Department
            Nagajima Lab, 2-12-1 Meguro-Ku,
            O-okayama, 152  JAPAN
Tel     :   [phone]
Fax     :   [phone]


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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:37:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: [e-mail] (Paul Derbyshire)
Subject: Re: (fractint) help

>
>I'm a Ph.D. student and I want to know the open problems in fractal,
>and its application, because I'm interested in.

hmm.

* Is the M-set locally connected?
* What the f*ck is a Herman ring and can you come up with a formula and
  parameter file for a Herman ring Julia set? (The normal M-set is known
  to lack Herman rings. Other formulas, though...)
* Can you make a formula with many fractally entwined basins of attraction
  and lots of mandelbrots and self inverse detail?
* is there an easy way to find interesting self-homologous fractals?

- --
    .*.  Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese]
 -()  <  When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix"
    `*'  bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me]
Paul Derbyshire [e-mail], http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:39:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: [e-mail] (Michael Traynor)
Subject: Re: (fractint) JPEG suitability for fractals

Steven Covey writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> ,
>    NOEL_GIFFIN <[e-mail]>  writes:
>>     Well that's all fine but there are hundreds of applications
>> that will convert to jpeg format if you want it.
>
>If I'm storing images on my web site, having the user convert them to
>JPEG after they've downloaded them misses the point of the better
>compression of JPEG.  It doesn't save me any disk space and it didn't
>save them any time downloading.

You are missing the point.  You convert them to JPEG and put them on your
site, and make the par file available for download.  A person who just
wants a cool pic downloads the JPEG and one who wants to play with it
downloads the par (getting in the process compression that JPEG can only
dream of)  There is no need to have fractint produce the original image,
and serious problems if it did.


- --
Mike Traynor

People who like this sort of thing will find this the sort of thing they like.
    Abraham Lincoln

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