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fractint Digest      Wednesday, October 15 1997      Volume 01 : Number 033



In this issue:

    Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
    Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
    Re: (fractint) Colors!
    Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
    (fractint) Buy Tim's book.... CHEAP!
    Re: (fractint) IFS Formulas
    Re: (fractint) IFS Formulas
    Re: (fractint) Colors!
    Re: (fractint) Colors!
    Re: (fractint) Colors!
    Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
    Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
    Re: (fractint) Colors!
    Re: (Fwd) Re: (fractint) Color Maps
    Re: (Fwd) Re: (fractint) Color Maps
    (fractint) Copyright law
    Re: (fractint) Copyright law
    Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
    Re: (fractint) Copyright law
    Re: (Fwd) Re: (fractint) Color Maps
    Re: (fractint) Copyright law
    Re: (fractint) Copyright law
    Re: (Fwd) Re: (fractint) Color Maps
    (fractint) about Sunglasses and Int math.
    Re: (fractint) Copyright law

See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the fractint
or fractint-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:04:38 -0600
From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?

In article <[e-mail]> ,
    "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>  writes:
> My original post was based of two (probably totally off-base) assumptions:
>
> 1: C is a dying language, as Sun would have you believe  [...]

Languages live longer than many people would like to believe...
FORTRAN is still alive as FORTRAN 90 and it was originally conceieved
to be nothing more than a glorified translator of formulas into
assembly code (FORTRAN = FORmula TRANslator).  LISP was also invented
around the same time as FORTRAN (1950s) and is still alive and
kicking as embodied in the Common LISP standard.  C was invented in
the middle/late 70s (1978?) and is alive and kicking as C++.

Designers of new languages always like to paint the situation as one
of near-death for competing languages and toot their own horns quite
loudly about how their new language is better than all existing
languages.  Java has a niche and a role to play in network-based apps
and has appeal for embedded network devices and some other things.  I
seriously doubt that Java will be displacing C/C++/FORTRAN/LISP out of
its strongholds any time soon.  Instead, it will be used where it
makes more sense to use Java than C/C++.  Java is a new language for
new applications of programming, not a language that will replace
other languages.  Also, Java has been incredibly overhyped considering
that its birthplace is the Mother of All Hype -- the web.
- --
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:23:23 -0700
From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?

Damien wrote:

>I think C will be around at least as long as Java. :)  C++ offers many of
>the same features as Java (although Java does some of them more
elegantly).
> The advantages to C++ over Java are that (a) C++ tools are more mature;
>(b) C++ is easy for C programmers to pick up; (c) C++ is compiled to
native
>code, not generic byte codes (so it's much faster).  None of these are
>insurmountable advantages for Java, but until they're at least addressed,
I
>don't see Java dislodging C++ for application development.


The biggest difference between C++ and Java, to me, is the lack of
complex in Java.   Have you tried to write a roots of a complex
quartic polynomial in real only arithmetic.  It is a mess.
While we like to talk of assembly optimization, there are still the
experimental fractal projects some of us do, and these are easiest
done in a smart language.

Another $.03

Jay



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:25:54 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Merle L Newsted Jr)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Colors!

Hey Jay,

I did a lot of zooming on Sunglasses and didn't have the problem you are
describing. However, I don't know how to rotate a fractal in the formula
the way you did in Sunglasses-r, What I did is simply press "page up"
once to get a zoom box and then rotate the box with the mouse (hold right
button).

I didn't know people wanted a par file with a frm file I'll be sure to do
that in the future.

Q. Why do you want a par file? Can't you just use the frm file, or is
there an easy way of using a par file to view an image. So far I've had
to load the .frm and the .par to view the fractal .par. Why not just run
the fractal from formula and save the image you like or don't like (of
course with Nuker fractals "not-like" is impossible-right?).

Q2. Why did Sylvie put a copyright on the par file posted yesterday?
Isn't Fractint free? I don't see how you could claim it as original.
Sylvie?

Thanks,
Nuke

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:44:15 -0600
From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?

Speaking of Java, if any of you are learning Java or just like free
stuff :), then look at <URL: http://www.gr.com> and search for
"poster" on their site.  If you fill out their little survey, they
will send you a poster showing the class hierarchy of Java, which puts
it all into perspective.

In article <[e-mail]> ,
    "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>  writes:
> The biggest difference between C++ and Java, to me, is the lack of
> complex in Java.

Odd, I would have thought it would be included, but you're right, its
not on the class hierarchy on the poster.  I guess Sun doesn't
consider complex numbers to be important for the target audience of
Java -- network based applications.
- --
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:16:13 -0600
From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Buy Tim's book.... CHEAP!

<URL: http://www.hamiltonbook.com/titles/9/6/2/962481.html>
    FRACTALS FOR WINDOWS. By Tim Wegner, et al.
     Item # 962481 Pub at $ 34.95 Your Cost $ 5.95

     Experience a hands-on fractal exploration using the bundled
     Winfract program to generate, manipulate, edit, color-cycle and
     save over 75 fractals, including projecting them into three
     dimensions. Includes a 3.5" disk. Paperbound Illus., some color.
     358 pages Waite Group
- --
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:04:35 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Grasso, Nick)
Subject: Re: (fractint) IFS Formulas

Ramiro Perez wrote:

>By the way, anyone knows on where I can find IFS files?, I search for
>them (in altavista and spanky!), but I found no one (save the old ones
>that come in fdesign and vifs).

Try these:
<http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~spot/flame.html>
<http://www.ntu.edu.sg/home/eyqchen/ifsworld/ifsworld.html>

Nick


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:14:10 -0600
From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) IFS Formulas

There is also a collection of IFS files in the fracxtra ZIP file
available on Spanky.

I think there is also an IFS editor that is much more intuitive than
fractint in constructing interesting IFS par files.  I can't remember
the name of it, but I think it also is on Spanky.
- --
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:09:58 -0400
From: Sylvie Gallet <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Colors!

Hi Nuke,

>> Q2. Why did Sylvie put a copyright on the par file posted yesterday?
>> Isn't Fractint free? I don't see how you could claim it as original.
>> Sylvie?

  Though the tool I used (Fractint) is free, the pars I posted yesterday
are my creations (coordinates, coloring schemes, palettes...) and I don't=

put them in the public domain.

        - Sylvie

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  [e-mail]
  http://spanky.triumf.ca/www/fractint/sylvie/gallet.html
  http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Sylvie_Gallet/homepage.htm
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:25:28 -0400
From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Colors!

Nuke,

 - Q. Why do you want a par file? Can't you just use the frm file,

It is easier to start with a PAR file, particularly if your formula
requires good values for p1, p2, or p3, or a particular location.  With a
PAR, you can set these parameters up to good "default" settings, and let
people play from there.

 - Q2. Why did Sylvie put a copyright on the par file posted yesterday?
 - Isn't Fractint free? I don't see how you could claim it as original.

FractInt is free, sure.  But the images that you produce with it are
*yours*.  The ones I make are *mine*.  They have a copyright simply by
being created, and if someone wants to retain that copyright, they're
perfectly entitled to.  So while FractInt may be free, do NOT assume that
every image you see produced with FractInt is also free.  Many are not.

Think of it this way.  If you created a piece of artwork with Adobe
Photoshop, does that mean Adobe owns the art?  Of course not.  Now let's
say you got Photoshop free with your flatbed scanner.  Does that mean
artwork you produce with it is now free, too?  Of course not.  The
copyright or distribution rights of the tool used have little bearing on
whether what is produced is freely distributable or not.

I hope this clears things up.  Sylvie, didn't mean to butt in here (I know
you can speak for yourself), but as someone who also copyrights their art,
I felt compelled to speak. :)

Damien M. Jones  /  temporary sanity designs  /  http://www.icd.com/tsd/
   [e-mail]  /  my art gallery: http://www.geocities.com/~fractalus/


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:32:38 -0600
From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Colors!

Everything that is posted by anyone, anywhere on the network has an
implicit copyright on it by the author.  There is no need to
explicitly state copyright anymore in order to have a copyright status
on an author's work.  Every email message, news article, web page,
etc. already has the author's copyright on it.  You have to explicitly
state that you are putting something in the public domain in order for
it to be in the public domain (at least for works created since the
last revision of the copyright act/treaties in the 80s).

Fractint is freely available, but unless the source code states that
it is public domain, it is still copyrighted by the authors.  Just
because something is copyrighted doesn't mean you have to pay for
using it.  However, if someone started taking copies of fractint and
tried to sell it as their own, that would be a blatant violation of
the copyright and the Stone Soup Group could get a court injunction to
prevent such a person from selling it.

There is a copyright FAQ that discusses all of these issues, if you're
interested in the gory details.
- --
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:48:17 -0500
From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?

Jay Hill wrote:

>
>
> The biggest difference between C++ and Java, to me, is the lack of
> complex in Java.

Wait a minute! I don't remember C++ having complex as a type, either.  The
online docs for Microsoft Visual C++ 4.0 say something about a Fortran complex
type, and simlating it in C++, and something about a complex function in Excel
worksheets, but nothing about an actual complex class.Could you explain
exactly what you mean by this?

Also, I'm surprised that Java would include arbitrary precision decimals but
leave out complex numbers.  What was Sun thinking??????????????????  Of
course, this means that you would have to write your own class for complex
numbers.  I tried it in C++ and the results were slow.  I'm sure if you tried
it in Java, the results would be SLOOOOOOOOOOOOW!!!!!!!!!!!!! <vbg>

Justin

"I only use Win-doze because:
1. I need more hard drive space (read: a new hard drive) to run Solaris
2. 32 megs (the minimum) probably isn't enough for Solaris
3. 0% of my current apps would run on Solaris (unless there is an MS-DOS
or Windows emulator available)
4. All of the above costs MONEY (which I don't have)"
- -Me




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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:53:42 -0500
From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?

Rich Thomson wrote:

> Speaking of Java, if any of you are learning Java or just like free
> stuff :), then look at <URL: http://www.gr.com> and search for
> "poster" on their site.  If you fill out their little survey, they
> will send you a poster showing the class hierarchy of Java, which puts
> it all into perspective.

Sorry, I checked it out, and one of the results was a page saying that "the free
Java posterpromotion has ended." :(

Justin

"I only use Win-doze because:
1. I need more hard drive space (read: a new hard drive) to run Solaris
2. 32 megs (the minimum) probably isn't enough for Solaris
3. 0% of my current apps would run on Solaris (unless there is an MS-DOS
or Windows emulator available)
4. All of the above costs MONEY (which I don't have)"
- -Me



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:00:07 -0700
From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Colors!

Nuke replied:
>Hey Jay,
>I did a lot of zooming on Sunglasses and didn't have the problem you are
>describing. However, I don't know how to rotate a fractal in the formula
>the way you did in Sunglasses-r, What I did is simply press "page up"
>once to get a zoom box and then rotate the box with the mouse (hold right
>button).
>I didn't know people wanted a par file with a frm file I'll be sure to do
>that in the future.

OK, Now it works without changing anything?!?!?!?  That is your frm
which I couldn't get to work after the initial view.  Other times, this was
because some parameter of setting was not set right, like float=y.
There are so many of these it is no easy to guess what you had
when you were looking at it and zooming without difficulty.

You see the glasses on its side?  Rotate by hitting PGUP, CTRL'+' or
'-' several times.  I did that and got solid blue.  At that point I hit B
and
save to the par file.   That was the -r version.  But then when I read it
in,
I still got solid blue.  The only difference between the two pars is
the rotation!!!!  Anyone find this happening????  And then go away?!?!?!?!


Thanks

Jay



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:39:55 +100
From: "Benno Schmid" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: (fractint) Color Maps

 Justin Kolodziej wrote:
>
> Actually, Fractint's palette editor only lists values from 0 to 63, so when you
> increase a value in Fractint, it's like increasing the actual RGB component of the
> color by 4.  The translation is automatic, resulting in any increase or decrease in
> color values in Fractint having meaning to the VGA adapter.  So, it has nothing to
> do with your SVGA card and everything to do wit Fractint's design.
I really was stupid when I wrote this, only looked at the +/- one
change and forgot about the maximum of 63.
>  Hope this doesn't confuse you TOO much...
I think 64*4=256 is something I might probably understand...

Benno Schmid

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:12:03 -0600
From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: (fractint) Color Maps

I'd like to mention that while VGA cards may impose this "divide by 4"
business on the colormaps, there is no such imposition with unix based
systems, the Windows color model or the color model in a GIF file
colormap.  So please don't assume that the world is a VGA card with
6-bit colors when creating your colormap files... always use the full
0-255 range.
- --
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:39:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: [e-mail] (Ian J Kaplan)
Subject: (fractint) Copyright law

   Since the topic's been brought up, I'd like to ask: what does
everybody think of copyright law as applied to fractals? That is, there
exists a sense in which no fractal image is 'written' by anyone (except
perhaps the inventor of the original formula) but only discovered inside
a mathematical construct. One can envision legions of artists
copyrighting every section of the Mandelbrot set at, say, zoom 4x.
   At the same time the rights of the artist who makes a real effort in
searching, varying parameters and so on to produce an image would seem to
be more comprable to the work of a sculptor finding the statue within a
rock. For the first time in history, however, the law must draw a rather
fine line between these two cases; fractals are infinitely reproducable,
after all, so while a person on the street picking up a rock and calling
it his copyrighted piece of art is no particular problem- who wants his
rock?- doing the same for a fractal has worldwide implications. Where or
how do we define the line between "random area of zooming in a public
image" and "original work of art"? Ideas?


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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:30:23 -0700
From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law

ijk wrote:

>copyrighting every section of the Mandelbrot set at, say, zoom 4x.

Don't get me started!

If you look in the archive of this list or the fractal art list, you will
see a post of mine where I remark about par files can only
have 2000 max images.

I created giant files with every midget through period 16 (nearly
65000) and many thousands more through period 64. I viewed
many of these with Fractint which draws them at a pace of a
second or each.  It can get hypnotic.  Anyway, I could post them
and copyright the whole lot!  It is stupid, I agree.  As for copyrighting
formula - the Mset equation was published in copyright
articles by Mandelbrot himself. So there we are.

I do respect work of others, as anyone who reads my
publications will see,  but some of the fractal artists seem
to get too caught up in it, it seems to me.

My $.03 worth.  Oh my, you got me started.  :-)

Jay



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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:30:33 -0700
From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?

Justin wrote,

>Also, I'm surprised that Java would include arbitrary precision
>decimals but leave out complex numbers.   What was Sun
>thinking??????????????????  Of course, this means that you
>would have to write your own class for complex numbers.
>I tried it in C++ and the results were slow.

C++ complex classes are mostly written as inline functions, and so
are not so slow. I get within a factor of two of unrolled loops in C.

Actually, Java won't let you because it doesn't allow operator
overloading.  I was convinced this was wisdom in action when
someone explained to me that all this was to keep the language
simple. No overloading and no complex.  But NOWWWW! you
remind me that they have arbitrary precision decimals which is
certainly not simple!!  Good grief!

Back to more on topic, we can look for Fractint to move to a
windowing environment someday. Presumably that would be
C++ although not necessarily.  The other choices for a window
program are Delphi, C, Java and VBasic (any others?).  None
of these have complex.  I push for complex type because we
will likely have the ablility to extend with addon functionality
(special test functions) written in C++ or asm.  These are easiest
done with classes.  One can even wrap complex extended
precision in classes.

I first used these in me DEEPZOOM program 4 years ago.
The original is still posted at Spanky! and at my web page,
see below.  If you look carefully at this old program you will
see I used _exact_ tests for points in the period 1, 2, 3, and 4
components.  That is the big cardioid, the circle, the top and
bottom bud (-0.123 +- 0.74i), the little cardioid at -1.75, the
cardioids at -1.94 and (-0.156+-1.032i), and buds at -1.31,
(0.28 +-  0.53i).  These involved some not too simple complex
arithmetic which would have been a royal pain done in C.
If any of you recall my original posting about this program, I had
converted an existing program to extended precision over
night.  Someone had complained that an extended precision
Mandelbrot plotter had been spotted but costs $80.  I replied
the next day with one for free.  If I had to do it in C or asm
I'd want a lot more time....  I'd still be working on it.

I vote for C++.  And since Microsoft has no long double, I'd
leave it out.


Jay

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/3825
main(){int f,g,h=0;float a,b,c,d,e;for(;h<3920;putchar("^/-,;<:lnb/bh`\
r/ylqbAmmhI/S/x`K\013"[++h>3840&&g<25?31-g:g>79?31:f]^1))if(!(f=(8*(c=(
d=(g=1+h%80)/31.-2)*d+(e=.047*(h/80-24))*e)-3)*c+d<3/32.?24:16*(1+2*d+c
)<1?30:0))for(a=d,b=c=0;(b=2*b*c+e)*b+(c=a)*a<=4&&++f<26;a=d-b*b+c*c);}



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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:42:48 -0600
From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law

I think lots of people here are confusing copyright with patents,
trademarks and other so-called "intellectual property" restrictions.

Yes, Mandelbrot published the formula in a copyrighted work, but that
doesn't mean that I am infringing Mandelbrot's copyright when I write z
:= z^2 + c.  Before you go and get all bent out of shape about
copyright, please take the time to understand what copyright IS and
what it ISN'T.
- --
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:53:33 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Grasso, Nick)
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: (fractint) Color Maps

At 03:12 PM 10/15/97 -0600,  Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>  wrote:

>I'd like to mention that while VGA cards may impose this "divide by 4"
>business on the colormaps, there is no such imposition with unix based
>systems, the Windows color model or the color model in a GIF file
>colormap.  So please don't assume that the world is a VGA card with
>6-bit colors when creating your colormap files... always use the full
>0-255 range.

But what happens if I'm running fractint for DOS in a VESA mode and I
specify a color that is not a multiple of 4, say 31,63,126? Does is round
it off to 32,64,128 when it displays the color? Or does it truncate it to
28,60,124? If it does round or truncate, does it write it to the GIF file
as 31,63,126?

Nick
[e-mail]


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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:57:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Evin C Robertson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law

Excerpts from mail: 15-Oct-97 (fractint) Copyright law by Ian J
[e-mail].e
>    Since the topic's been brought up, I'd like to ask: what does
> everybody think of copyright law as applied to fractals? That is, there
> exists a sense in which no fractal image is 'written' by anyone (except
> perhaps the inventor of the original formula) but only discovered inside
> a mathematical construct. One can envision legions of artists
> copyrighting every section of the Mandelbrot set at, say, zoom 4x.
>    At the same time the rights of the artist who makes a real effort in
> searching, varying parameters and so on to produce an image would seem to
> be more comprable to the work of a sculptor finding the statue within a
> rock. For the first time in history, however, the law must draw a rather
> fine line between these two cases; fractals are infinitely reproducable,
> after all, so while a person on the street picking up a rock and calling
> it his copyrighted piece of art is no particular problem- who wants his
> rock?- doing the same for a fractal has worldwide implications. Where or
> how do we define the line between "random area of zooming in a public
> image" and "original work of art"? Ideas?

You can copyright just about anything.  Of course, if someone can
reproduce your image using "clean room" techniques, they can use the
image without your permission.

For example, let's say someone copyrights their formula for a fractal.
You just happen to stumble upon the same fractal by playing with
formulae.  You can also copyright the same fractal.  The same thing with
zooms.

However, someone could patent their formula or zoom, and then even when
someone else finds it, they are bound by the original patent.  If you
can patent the genes in my body, you can also patent the numbers of the
mandelbrot set.

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Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:59:36 +0200 (EET)
From: Uri Bruck <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law

On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Ian J Kaplan wrote:

> it his copyrighted piece of art is no particular problem- who wants his
> rock?- doing the same for a fractal has worldwide implications. Where or
> how do we define the line between "random area of zooming in a public
> image" and "original work of art"? Ideas?

I recall seeing aninterview with a fractal artist who called himself a
fractographer.  He likened fractal art to photography, saying that if you
put 20 people (or any number ) to take a picture of the same building,
most would be fine, a couple of photos would be really good, and may be
one or two would be art.  Fractal art, he argued, was similar, in fact,
the fractal universe might be considered by some to be infinitely larger.
Furthermore, when you watch fractal art, you come to note the emergence of
style. This has more bearing to the question of art than to the question
of copyright.

Uri



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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:59:39 -0600
From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: (fractint) Color Maps

In article <[e-mail]> ,
    [e-mail] (Grasso, Nick)  writes:
> But what happens if I'm running fractint for DOS in a VESA mode and I
> specify a color that is not a multiple of 4, say 31,63,126? Does is round
> it off to 32,64,128 when it displays the color?

<shrug> Tim will have to answer that one, or perhaps someone who is
more familiar with the fractint source code.

> Or does it truncate it to
> 28,60,124? If it does round or truncate, does it write it to the GIF file
> as 31,63,126?

If it messes up the colormap when writing the color table in the GIF
file (i.e. VGA-izes it), then I would consider that a bug because its
not storing the colors as specified.
- --
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:58:02 -0400
From: Thierry Boudet <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) about Sunglasses and Int math.

        Bonsoir.

I have tried the sunglasses formula. Very stranges (an nice)
effect with Decomposition option.

Sunglasses_integer { ; "Hello, fractal word !"
                     ; Thierry Boudet [e-mail]
                     ; created Oct 16, 1997 in Toulouse
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=pas_glop.frm
  formulaname=Sunglasses passes=1
  center-mag=3.665e-006/-8.65e-007/0.6666663 decomp=8
  video=F5
  }

        Best regards from Toulouse, France.

        Thierry Boudet.


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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:47:54 -0400
From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law

Ian,

Let me first state that I'm not a lawyer.  I am not qualified to give legal
advice.  And all too often, what makes sense to real people doesn't
necessarily line up with the way laws are written.

 - That is, there exists a sense in which no fractal image is 'written' by
 - anyone (except perhaps the inventor of the original formula) but only
 - discovered inside a mathematical construct.

I would think that this is just one of those grey areas that we'd all just
as soon would go away. :-)  I look at it this way: when I make a fractal
image, I own that image.  The image is composed of the shape and coloring
that I have chosen, and perhaps the actual formula used as well.  AFAIK,
though, US copyright law doesn't let you copyright mathematical expressions
or formulae, which would rule out the use of owning the base fractal shape
itself.  This leaves you with the particular artist's choice of shape,
location, and color.  Duplicate these exactly, and there is little trouble
in proving the image is copied.

Where it gets a little more problematic is when someone changes your image
somewhat and tries to pass it off as their own.  Maybe they zoom a little
bit, in or out, or they change the colors.  This falls into the area of
"derivative works", and would also be a copyright violation.  However, if
you zoom far enough into someone else's copyrighted image that the features
are no longer recognizable as a detail from the original image, it would be
harder to prove that it is a derivative work.  In short, the more work put
into it, the more likely you can establish that it is your own work--in the
same way that musicians can be inspired by other musicians, and produce
similar (but not identical) music.  I think drawing the line between
infringement and inspiration will very difficult.  Some things are
obviously one or the other, but I'm pretty sure there will be cases where
the difference is not so clear-cut.

These copyright questions are not academic.  Within the past few days I had
someone copy an image from one of my web pages and use it in their own web
page, without credit.  Only the colors were different (and only a hue shift
at that).  In this particular case, I think the person was simply unaware
of the copyright infringement they were doing, but it illustrates the need
to inform people about what is and is not proper.

Damien M. Jones  /  temporary sanity designs  /  http://www.icd.com/tsd/
   [e-mail]  /  my art gallery: http://www.geocities.com/~fractalus/


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