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fractint Digest      Wednesday, October 15 1997      Volume 01 : Number 032



In this issue:

    Re: (fractint) Color Maps
    Re: (fractint) Color Maps
    Re: (fractint) FRACTAL ANIMATIONS
    Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
    Re: (fractint) Re: Synchronous orbits
    Re: (fractint) Color Maps
    (fractint) Re: color maps
    Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
    Re: (fractint) Integer v. float
    Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
    (fractint) Colors!
    Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
    Re: (fractint) FRACTAL ANIMATIONS
    Re: (fractint) FRACTAL ANIMATIONS
    Re: (fractint) 80-bit long double floating point
    Re: (fractint) Colors!
    (Fwd) (fractint) Color Maps
    Re: (fractint) Colors!
    (Fwd) Re: (fractint) Color Maps
    Re: (Fwd) Re: (fractint) Color Maps
    Re: (fractint) IFS Formulas
    Re: (fractint) Colors!
    Re: (fractint) Why not Java?
    Re: (fractint) 80-bit long double floating point
    Re: (fractint) 80-bit long double floating point

See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the fractint
or fractint-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:14:21 -0600
From: Rich Thomson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Color Maps

I thought this 6bit hack thing was for old VGA cards, not the newer
SVGA cards where you have a palette of 256 out of 2^24 colors.  True
or false?
- --
  ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.''  -- Steven Covey
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D;        Rich Thomson
     email me for more info                [e-mail]

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 23:45:20 +0200
From: Leif Biberg Kristensen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Color Maps

>Actually, values in multiples of 4 are meaningful.  26 31 24 would be
>sent to the VGA as 6 7 6, which is equivalent to giving Fractint 24 28
>24.  Fractint (and any other program which translates 24-bit color to 18
>bit color) divides each color by 4, removing the two least significant
>bits.  The VGA palette registers themselves don't do this; they look at
>the bottom 6 bits of the 8 bits sent to their port.

Of course, you're right ... got a little mixed-up in the powers of 2.

%-} <-me, cross-eyed & with a red face

- --
Leif B. Kristensen
Nils Kirkeruds vei 8 B            [e-mail]
N-1313 V=D8YENENGA, NORWAY        + 47 67 13 22 64

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:50:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: henry birdseye <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) FRACTAL ANIMATIONS

On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Cynthia Peterson wrote:

> We are looking for programs that create FRACTAL ANIMATIONS.  The search is
> actually to identify companies to approach for a teaming effort to
> integrate fractal animation capabilities into an existing VB/C++ program.

I make Fractint animations regularly using a program called FAE (Fractal
Animation Explorer). Archie for FAE210B.exe and you'll probably find it.
If not I can mail it to you. The basic deal is, you give a start point and
an end point and it generates a long .par file, and a .bat file that makes
the pix. I have made many minutes of this stuff with FAE and love the
program.

It also works to animate Julia values and palettes. Please keep me abreast
of your progress.

- -----------------
Henry S. Birdseye
Video Compositing Artist, Fractal Zoomer, Raytracer, Film Collector,
  Techno Head, .net addict

www.mich.com/~ozymand
www.prodcolor.com


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 23:06:49 +0200 (EET)
From: Uri Bruck <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?

On Mon, 13 Oct 1997, Brock Kevin Nambo wrote:
>
> I don't think I would recommend the Javaversion of Fractint, especially
> since uh,.. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but last I checked, Java didn't
> enjoy the writing of files...

This is only true for applets, not for applications.

>
> The Java docs were confusing to me; when you say "stand-alone applications"
> do you mean like a self-contained program, that doesn't need the java
> runtime? (or whatever that word is...)

AFAIK the applications still need a virtual machine to be running in, but
that virtual machine need not be a browser.

> Java is a programming language, which, which is not supported by any
> computer.  The reasoning behind this (kinda fuzzy, yes) is that since it's
> not native to any computer, they can get any computer to run it, via an
> emulator called the Java "Virtual Machine."  This is a similar concept to a
> language I'm trying to learn (Inform) except Java is much more
> graphic-oriented by virtue of being much younger.  Java makes two kinds of
> programs: applets, which are designed to be used with HTML and web browsers;
> and applications, which run from a Java interpreter compatible withyour
> system.


The origianl poster suggested using native functions. This simply means
that if you want something to run fast in Java, you can call another
library that's written in C or C++ or anything else. But then you lose the
portability which was the reason for choosing Java in the first place, and
Fractint is already compiled to run as a native app. I don't see any gain
from using Java.
As far as Fractint 50 is concerned - who says that Java will still be "in"
by then? :)

Uri



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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:02:05 -0700
From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Re: Synchronous orbits

I wrote earlier today:
>Rollo Silver ([e-mail])
> http://www.artvark.com/artvark/
>published an article about this in his news letter,
>Amigdala, a few years ago.  I don't recall the
>author, it might even have been Rollo.

Make that Amygdala and it was Steven Stoft's article.
This according to Robert P. Munafo.

I could look up my copy of the article, but that would involve
looking though files in the REAL 3D WORLD.    >8^O

Jay




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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:09:21 +0200
From: Leif Biberg Kristensen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Color Maps

At 15:14 14.10.97 -0600, you wrote:
>
>I thought this 6bit hack thing was for old VGA cards, not the newer
>SVGA cards where you have a palette of 256 out of 2^24 colors.  True
>or false?

This is, of course, a question of hardware versus software. You're right
about the new SVGA cards, they have 'true-color' modes which allow for
24-bit color maps. And they'll put more than 256 colors on the screen
simultaneously, too. You'll find some of these modes in Fractint. What
you'll se, hovewer, when you try one of the >256 color modes, is an
all-blue image. That is because the true-color modes in Fractint, as I
understand it, are not fully implemented. It looks as only the first 256
colors of the mega-palette are displayed on the screen. (Here, I hope for a
more technical explanation from one of the Fractint developers.)

In the 256-color modes, the SVGA cards are still, and I think will be for
the foreseeable future, downward compatible with the ancient standard VGA
color maps, limited to 3x6 bits. This has something to do with low-level
calls in older code, I guess.

- --
Leif B. Kristensen
Nils Kirkeruds vei 8 B            [e-mail]
N-1313 V=D8YENENGA, NORWAY        + 47 67 13 22 64

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:23:44 -0400
From: GEDEON PETERI <[e-mail]>
Subject: (fractint) Re: color maps

- --------------2E9C791EDA7B6433B8394649
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Merle L Newsted Jr wrote:
> >
> > I've just started trying to write my own .map files. And I have some
> > questions.
>
  There are a couple of utilities I found very useful in making Fractint
color maps. One is called "Makemap" and is included in the Fracxtr6
package available at Spanky's.
http://spanky.triumf.ca/www/fractint/fractint.html
    There is also "Mapmaker" with more features, including the very
useful ability to save maps as csv files which can then be viewed,
graphed, and manipulated in Excel.  Mapmaker is available from its
author, Jack Orman at http://members.aol.com/jorman/fract.html
    Gedeon Peteri.


- --------------2E9C791EDA7B6433B8394649
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>

<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE>Merle L Newsted Jr wrote:
>
> I've just started trying to write my own .map files. And I have some
> questions.</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
  There are a couple of utilities I found very useful in making Fractint
color maps. One is called "Makemap" and is included in the Fracxtr6 package
available at Spanky's. <A HREF="http://spanky.triumf.ca/www/fractint/fractint.html">http://spanky.triumf.ca/www/fractint/fractint.html</A>
<BR>    There is also "Mapmaker" with more features, including
the very useful ability to save maps as csv files which can then be viewed,
graphed, and manipulated in Excel.  Mapmaker is available from its
author, Jack Orman at <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/jorman/fract.html">http://members.aol.com/jorman/fract.html</A>
<BR>    Gedeon Peteri.
<BR> </HTML>

- --------------2E9C791EDA7B6433B8394649--


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:13:41 -0400
From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?

Why not Java?  I sure hope this wasn't a serious question. :)

Two reasons.

(1) Most of FractInt's code is C already.  When I suggested a while back to
folks who actually work on FractInt that porting it to C++ might not be a
bad idea, it was pointed out to me in a hurry how big a task that would be.
 Moving FractInt to Java would be much, much more work.

(2) Speed.  Java is Slow As Mud.  Sure, if you get a really fast computer,
Java runs OK for a lot of stuff.  But fractals are not like a lot of stuff;
they actually require gobs of performance and generally benefit from
optimized assembly code.  Sure, we may have computers fast enough to run a
Java fractal generator at a tolerable speed... and an assembly-optimized
fractal generator will run rings around it on the same computer.

 -    Then again, there is the JIT (Just-in-Time) compiler, but I don't know
 - if it has any relevancy to applications.

Sure it does, it's just not enough.  Even compiler-optimized C or C++ code
isn't fast enough, for some things.

 - I'm sure you guys will be able to figure it all out by the 50th release ;).

I'd wager by the 50th release, Java will be one of those long-forgotten
languages. :)

Damien M. Jones  /  temporary sanity designs  /  http://www.icd.com/tsd/
   [e-mail]  /  my art gallery: http://www.geocities.com/~fractalus/


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:10:05 -0400
From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer v. float

Mrvn,

 - On an MC68060 its 2 cycles for a 32 Bit int multiply (and the cpu can
 - put that into a pipeline and do other stuff inbetween) and more for
 - fpu. I think even with 64 Bit ints its faster than fpu. This is also
 - true for other cpu's.

Oh sure, you're absolutely right here.  No argument.  However, the
differences are becoming much smaller.  My feeling is it's only the
assembly code (the x86 assembly code) where the differences, to one side or
the other, will be major.  Somehow I don't see a compiler effectively
optimizing the integer math.

 - I vote against removeing the int code, but for porting it to 32 bit and 64
 - bit.

If it were just a matter of adapting some C code, this wouldn't be the
issue.  The problem is, all that wondrous integer math code is in *assembly*.

 - you can do x^2 and y^2 at the same time with mmx.

Only with 16-bit math.  Virtually useless for the few zooms you get out of
it, not worth the effort of writing it, to me.

 - You can also emulate a 32/64 Bit multiply with a few four 16x16 multiply
 - cycles.

...versus two-cycle back-to-back 64x64 multiplies on the FPU...

 - I think it won't be much slower and you also have more registers to store
 - the numbers and don't need to write to memory.

You don't have more registers with MMX (you have the same eight registers
as you do with the FPU) and with the FPU you don't need to write to memory,
either.  JuliaSaver's core Mandelbrot/Julia calculation routine runs
entirely out of FPU registers.

 - [re: IMUL not pairable on Pentium]
 - Thats a intel problem and other cpu's should also be considered.

Sure that's an Intel problem.  Most use of FractInt is on x86 processors,
and that's what the assembly is written for.  Most x86 processors in use
are Intel, thus it makes sense to optimize for Intel flavors of x86 first.
Fortunately, optimizing for Intel flavors generally speeds things up on
other x86 processors as well, as they use similar (but not identical)
techniques to speed up execution of x86 instructions.

 - Why not use a library that does this? There are libraries for n Bit
 - interger operations out there which can be utilised.

Effectively killing your speed.  The problem here is not arbitrary
precision--that's already handled pretty well.  The problem is the 32-bit
integer code that is in assembly, and the only reason it's fast is because
it's all directly inlined and explicit.  Trying to use some library would
make the performance worse than C code that uses the FPU!  Unless you're
hand-optimizing with assembly code, the differences between integer code
and FPU code are unlikely to be significant enough to warrant keeping the
code in there.

Damien M. Jones  /  temporary sanity designs  /  http://www.icd.com/tsd/
   [e-mail]  /  my art gallery: http://www.geocities.com/~fractalus/


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:10:41 -0400
From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?

Mrvn,

 - If the aim is to have fractint running on any computer then C is the
 - way to go and C is fast enough. Also it's easy to have inline asm for
 - various cpu's.

I'd be thrilled to see a Mac port of FractInt--over on another mailing list
(MetaCreations' KPT List) there has been quite a discussion about fractal
software for Macs, and several people have advocated *buying* a software PC
emulator just to run FractInt!  There is interest.  Too bad I don't know
PPC assembly.  (And too bad my 68K knowledge is virtually useless now.)

 - With todays compilers for C its also hardly neccessary to write inline
 - asm for more then the bare core of the formula (if even).

Yep, only simple fractal types will really benefit from hand-optimizing,
like the M-set.

 - On a PPC for example the iner loop of a Mandelbrod Fractal can be written
 - in 6 asm lines

Six?!?  Wow!  I'd like to see that (along with an explanation since I'm not
PPC fluent).

Damien M. Jones  /  temporary sanity designs  /  http://www.icd.com/tsd/
   [e-mail]  /  my art gallery: http://www.geocities.com/~fractalus/


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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:57:57 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: (fractint) Colors!

Thanks to everybody who responded with information about color maps.
Now I think I promised another ABSOLUTELY FREE M.L.Newsted Jr. Fractal!

Well, here it is!

Sunglasses (xaxis) { ; Merle L. Newsted Jr.
    z = 0,
    a = pixel,
    b = pixel + 1,
    c = pixel * 2:

    z = a*z*z + b*z + c ;What? No bailout test!!!
    }

Anybody recognize the mutated formula?
Dis ids veddy veddy sceddy...

"...God is in the details..." Linus C. Pauling

Nuke

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:04:10 -0500
From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?

Damien M. Jones wrote:

> Why not Java?  I sure hope this wasn't a serious question. :)

Oy vey! What a can of worms I opened up with this one.  I never expected so many
passionate responses about exactly why Java won't work.

My original post was based of two (probably totally off-base) assumptions:

1: C is a dying language, as Sun would have you believe (despite the claim in the
book Not Just Java, which is published by - who else? - Sun Microsystems, that
"this book contains my own views and conclusions" and is not an official statement
of policy by Sun).
2: Java is poised to become the general-purpose programming language of the future
(see 1).

I also expected that when Java became a regular programming language, there would
be optimizing compilers and all the other stuff that now comes with C++
development tools.  Hence the release 50 deadline... :|

Perhaps I should have asked the question, "What happens when C goes out of
style?"  and given my answer, "Move to Java."  But then everyone would write in,
"C probably won't die, and even if it does, the programmers could keep their C
compilers."

Anyone care to comment on that one? Or did I get the general feeling of
programmers everywherre right?

Bye for now, and remember, "Assume makes a... well... ARSE (can I say that here?
and if I can't, please forgive me this once, as that's how I'm feeling now :( )
out of you and me."

"I only use Windows because:
1.  Solaris isn't available for a PC :(
2.  I can't afford a Sun and I'd have to buy a server AND a workstation
(I think) :( :*( :^(
3.  When's the last time YOU saw an X-Windows app in your local software
store?! ;)"
- -Me

 Justin Kolodziej is  [e-mail]




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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:08:41 -0600
From: Scott Snyder <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) FRACTAL ANIMATIONS

At 17:50 14-10-97 -0400, you wrote:

>I make Fractint animations regularly using a program called FAE (Fractal
>Animation Explorer). Archie for FAE210B.exe and you'll probably find it.
>

Boy, I couldn't find it.  Would you mind posting the appropriate URL?

Thanks.



Everywhere is within running distance....if you have the time.

        Scott Snyder -- [e-mail]  -- Littleton, CO

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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:54:14 +0000
From: Peter Otterstaetter <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) FRACTAL ANIMATIONS

> Date:          Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:08:41 -0600
> To:            [e-mail]
> From:          Scott Snyder <[e-mail]>
> Subject:       Re: (fractint) FRACTAL ANIMATIONS
> Reply-to:      [e-mail]

> >I make Fractint animations regularly using a program called FAE (Fractal
> >Animation Explorer). Archie for FAE210B.exe and you'll probably find it.
> >
>
> Boy, I couldn't find it.  Would you mind posting the appropriate URL?
>

http://spanky.triumf.ca/pub/fractals/programs/IBMPC/FAE210B.ZIP

hope this helps!

Peter
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Otterstaetter
BASF Aktiengesellschaft
Zentralbereich Informatik
ZXA/U Anwendungsentwicklung
D-67056 Ludwigshafen
E-mail: [e-mail]
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
All things come to those who wait. They come, but often come too late.
    From Lady Mary M. Curie: Tout Vient a Qui Sait Attendre (1890)
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 97 09:45:46 BST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (fractint) 80-bit long double floating point

80 doubles are ONLY used inside the intel co-processor. The user has no
access to these numbers, only their 64 bit approximations.

Hoppy

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Date: 15 Oct 97 11:47:56 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Wim de Lange)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Colors!

Op 14 Oct 97 om 19:57 schreef [e-mail] over:
"(fractint) Colors!"

> Thanks to everybody who responded with information about color maps.
> Now I think I promised another ABSOLUTELY FREE M.L.Newsted Jr.
> Fractal!
>
> Well, here it is!

The formula is there, where is the PAR?

Groetjes,
    Wim de Lange
 _____________________________________

 Internet:    [e-mail]
 CompuServe:  100142,604
 _____________________________________


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Date: 15 Oct 97 11:39:31 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Wim de Lange)
Subject: (Fwd) (fractint) Color Maps

questions. 1. How many combinations are possible? I would think that
there are only 256, assuming red=1, grn=1, blu=1 would be the same as
red=120, grn=120, blu=120. Otherwise there would seem to be a
factorial of colors (256!)

256*256*256 is the right answer. And RGB(1,1,1) is almost black, and
RGB(120,120,120) is the gray. The numbers are the clarity.

2. Is there a nice list of numbers coordinating with their respective
colors?

You can make it yourself? There is this easy list.
Black =(0,0,0), Grey=(127,127,127), white = (256,256,256)
Red=(256,0,0), blue green
Yellow = Blue and green, etc.


Groetjes,
    Wim de Lange
 _____________________________________

 Internet:    [e-mail]
 CompuServe:  100142,604
 _____________________________________


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:54:30 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Merle L Newsted Jr)
Subject: Re: (fractint) Colors!

I didn't think you neede a par file. Why not add it to a .frm file?
I mean really, it's a M.L.Newsted Jr. Fractal!! It probably deserves its
very own private .frm suite !

I'll send a par out when I get home (about 9 hours from now).
 /////
 0 0
( ? )
 <>

>
>The formula is there, where is the PAR?
>
>Groetjes,
>    Wim de Lange
> _____________________________________
>
> Internet:    [e-mail]
> CompuServe:  100142,604
> _____________________________________
>
>
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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:37:01 +100
From: "Benno Schmid" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (Fwd) Re: (fractint) Color Maps

Evin Robertson wrote:
> Excerpts from mail: 14-Oct-97 Re: (fractint) Color Maps by Leif B.
> Kristensen@onlin
> > Actually the VGA color register is only 3x6 bits wide, thus allowing for
> > 256K (or 262144) different colors. This means that although you can specify
> > any RGB value in a range from 0 to 255, only the values which are
> > multiplies of 8 are meaningful. For instance: An RGB triplet in a Fractint
> > .map file written as  26 31 24 will be read as 24 24 24. BTW this is why
> > the "pseudo-grey" maps of Fractint display shades of red, green and blue
> > alternately.
>
> Actually, values in multiples of 4 are meaningful.  26 31 24 would be
> sent to the VGA as 6 7 6, which is equivalent to giving Fractint 24 28
> 24.  Fractint (and any other program which translates 24-bit color to 18
> bit color) divides each color by 4, removing the two least significant
> bits.  The VGA palette registers themselves don't do this; they look at
> the bottom 6 bits of the 8 bits sent to their port.
>
So only multiplies of 4 would be meaningful to VGA cards and
increasing and decreasing by values of one would in most cases do
nothing?
When I take a palette consisting of single gray (e.g. 31 31 31) and
inrease or decrease each value by one, I can always see a difference,
even in standard VGA mode, between (31 31 31) and say (31 30 31).
How could that happen with cropping, or is it because I have a SVGA
card?

Benno Schmid

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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:17:18 -0500
From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: (fractint) Color Maps

Benno Schmid wrote:

> So only multiplies of 4 would be meaningful to VGA cards and
> increasing and decreasing by values of one would in most cases do
> nothing?
> When I take a palette consisting of single gray (e.g. 31 31 31) and
> inrease or decrease each value by one, I can always see a difference,
> even in standard VGA mode, between (31 31 31) and say (31 30 31).
> How could that happen with cropping, or is it because I have a SVGA
> card?
>
> Benno Schmid
>

Actually, Fractint's palette editor only lists values from 0 to 63, so when you
increase a value in Fractint, it's like increasing the actual RGB component of the
color by 4.  The translation is automatic, resulting in any increase or decrease in
color values in Fractint having meaning to the VGA adapter.  So, it has nothing to
do with your SVGA card and everything to do wit Fractint's design.  Hope this
doesn't confuse you TOO much...

Justin Kolodziej

"I only use Win-doze because:
1. I need more hard drive space (read: a new hard drive) to run Solaris
2. 32 megs (the minimum) probably isn't enough for Solaris
3. 0% of my current apps would run on Solaris (unless there is an MS-DOS emulator
available)
4. All of the above costs MONEY (which I don't have)"
- -Me


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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:28:11 +0500 (GMT)
From: Ramiro Perez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) IFS Formulas

On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Sylvie Gallet wrote:

> Hi Ramiro,
>
> >> Here is an example of a small utility (20k zipped) that I write for
> >> fractint par files.
>
>   Thanks!  Here are some pars created with the ifs from the Fractint
> package.

Hi Silvie..
Thanks for the pars, they are beautiful!, especially the Fern!. I hope
that this little utility helps you to create more fractal artwork like
these ones..
By the way, anyone knows on where I can find IFS files?, I search for
them (in altavista and spanky!), but I found no one (save the old ones
that come in fdesign and vifs).


Ramiro Perez
[e-mail]



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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:32:35 -0700
From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Colors!

Hi Nuke,

I tried your formula with this par file.  I get the sunglasses on their
side.
So I rotate it 90 degrees (see Sunglasses-r  below) and the screen goes
to blue. In fact Sunglasses  goes to blue upon any zoom!  What gives?

Everyone, please post working par files with your formulae so we can
see what your settings are.

Thanks,

Jay
- ----------------------------------
frm:Sunglasses (xaxis) { ; Merle L. Newsted Jr.
     z = 0,
     a = pixel,
     b = pixel + 1,
     c = pixel * 2:

     z = a*z*z + b*z + c ;What? No bailout test!!!
     }

Sunglasses              {
  reset=1960
  type=formula formulafile=Nuke.par formulaname=Sunglasses
  center-mag=-0.5/6e-008/0.6666667 params=0/0
}
Sunglasses-r       { ; rotate 90 degrees
  reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=nuke.par formulaname=sunglasses
  center-mag=-0.5/6e-008/0.6666667/1/-90
}



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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:43:58 -0400
From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java?

Justin,

 - Oy vey! What a can of worms I opened up with this one.  I never expected
 - so many passionate responses about exactly why Java won't work.

That's okay, you wouldn't have known unless you asked.

 - My original post was based of two (probably totally off-base) assumptions:
 -
 - 1: C is a dying language, as Sun would have you believe

Yeah, well, Sun has a vested interest in the C falling by the wayside, so
that Java can reign supreme.  This makes their view of C a little iffy.
But there's a *lot* of C code, and C is very much part of UNIX; this and a
lot of other factors will keep C alive for a long, long time.  (Crud, even
COBOL programmers are in high demand these days... for a couple of years,
anyway.  So old languages don't die completely.)

 - 2: Java is poised to become the general-purpose programming language of
 - the future

Well, Java has some real hurdles to overcome.  One is that it isn't managed
by an international standards body, which means Sun can change the Java
spec on a whim.  They also have not released the details of their
"compatibility testing", AFAIK.  Now, this doesn't mean Sun *will* act
improperly, just that if they *do*, it will have major results.

Another problem is that Java programs are very difficult to get running on
different platforms, even without Microsoft's little power play.  Folks
who've tried writing applications with Java have had all sorts of headaches
with the apps not running right on different machines.  The "write once,
run anywhere" hype is, for the moment, just that--hype.

 - I also expected that when Java became a regular programming language, there
 - would be optimizing compilers and all the other stuff that now comes with
 - C++ development tools.

As Java matures, visual environments appear and so do "optimizing"
compilers.  However, Java doesn't compile to native code, it compiles to
"bytecodes" which can be executed on any machine with the appropriate Java
VM.  This means that no matter how "optimized" the byte code sequence is,
it must undergo a further interpretation or JIT-compile process before it
is actually executed on the underlying processor.  This sort of
double-translation is very difficult to effectively optimize as well as if
it were optimized directly to machine code in the first place.

 - Perhaps I should have asked the question, "What happens when C goes out of
 - style?"  and given my answer, "Move to Java."

This is indeed a much better question.  Yes, this is the one you should
have asked. :)

 - But then everyone would write in, "C probably won't die, and even if it
 - does, the programmers could keep their C compilers."

I think C will be around at least as long as Java. :)  C++ offers many of
the same features as Java (although Java does some of them more elegantly).
 The advantages to C++ over Java are that (a) C++ tools are more mature;
(b) C++ is easy for C programmers to pick up; (c) C++ is compiled to native
code, not generic byte codes (so it's much faster).  None of these are
insurmountable advantages for Java, but until they're at least addressed, I
don't see Java dislodging C++ for application development.

Damien M. Jones  /  temporary sanity designs  /  http://www.icd.com/tsd/
   [e-mail]  /  my art gallery: http://www.geocities.com/~fractalus/


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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:29:54 -0400
From: "Damien M. Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) 80-bit long double floating point

Hoppy,

 - 80 doubles are ONLY used inside the intel co-processor. The user has no
 - access to these numbers, only their 64 bit approximations.

Not quite.  It's very easy to store 80-bit real numbers in memory.  It's a
limitation of MS Visual C++ that it doesn't support the long double format,
but the processor certainly does and has no problem giving the "user"
access to them.

Microsoft's rationale for not supporting long doubles is that VC++ (with
the appropriate expansions) can be used to compile code for more than just
x86, and that other processors do not support Intel's 80-bit format.
Sounds like an asinine reason to me, but that's what they say.

Damien M. Jones  /  temporary sanity designs  /  http://www.icd.com/tsd/
   [e-mail]  /  my art gallery: http://www.geocities.com/~fractalus/


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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:49:17 -0700
From: "Jay Hill"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (fractint) 80-bit long double floating point

Hoppy wrote:
>80 doubles are ONLY used inside the intel co-processor. The user has no
>access to these numbers, only their 64 bit approximations.
This seems to be true for Microsoft compilers, but is incorrect in general.
Borland C++ compilers have 'long double' which gives you (and
I copy this from their help screen)

 Type          ? Length  ? Range
- ---------------+---------+---------------------------------------
 float         ? 32 bits ?   3.4 * (10**-38) to 3.4 * (10**+38)
 double        ? 64 bits ?  1.7 * (10**-308) to 1.7 * (10**+308)
 long double   ? 80 bits ? 3.4 * (10**-4932) to 1.1 * (10**+4932)


And you can print out the results and get about 19 significant digits.


Jay



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