Subject: RE: (exotica) Who wanted those tiki lights?
Charles Rajnai wrote:
> Neither the moai lights, nor the ones at cheezy lights ar the ones I
> have been looking for. I saw them hanging at a little place on the
> boardwalk, where he got them, I dont know. They were all the same color,
> and were painted on the eyes and mouth.
> The search continues...
The ones Nat directed me to at Canadian Tire are at least larger,
actually almost the exact size of a tiki mug. I looked there last year
with Moritz but it was past summer so all seasonal items were long
gone. I didn't think of looking again this year until now. I thought
they were expensive, considering, but I got a set anyway as it was
this or nothing. They are not painted but good old molded plastic in
each of 4 colours. Now how you would mailorder something from
Canadian Tire is a humourous proposition akin to mail ordering from
say Wal-Mart. If it helps, they are manufactured by a well know
Canadian company (in China of course!) called Noma. Maybe if this
company distributes in the US there is a chance they may be had
elsewhere. The box weighs just under 1 kg (2.2 lbs).
Hope this helps,
Brian Karasick
Physical Planner
McGill University
Montreal, Canada
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:04:02 -0400
From: "Br. Cleve" <bcleve@pop.tiac.net>
Subject: Re: (exotica) napster
At 1:29 PM +0200 7/31/00, Moritz R wrote:
>"Br. Cleve" wrote:
>
>> this actually brings up an interesting point, which neither the RIAA or the
>> Artists ever bring up: -
>> the fact that promos are bought and sold every day
>
>True, though do you think they are traded in relevant amounts?
yes, they are. I know firsthand from my days of working in used record
shops (whose owners would buy the promos of all the latest releases and
sell them at the shops for around $10, as oppossed to the $12 - 18 the
chains sell them for). It's a very real, widespread black market.
>> Next time you buy a copy of a CD that says "For Promotion Only" or words to
>> that effect, just remembert that the person who recorded the music receives
>> NO monetary compensation
>
>I don't think this is correct. Although the record company may reduce the
>promos from the royalties they pay to the artist, these CDs are still counted
>by the ASCAP etc (in Germany GEMA), because they control the pressing plants.
>So the artist will at least get his composition rights money for these promos.
>At least that's what I believe, I mean, I hope it is still like that.
Promos are a recoupable expense, charged back to the artist. Mechanical
royalties are paid on CD's that are sold legitimately. Promo CD's have no
bar codes, so they can not be scanned into a register, and cannot be
tracked. ASCAP etc residuals are paid for performance, i.e. radio play,
used in a movie or TV commercial etc.
br cleve
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:11:37 -0400
From: "Br. Cleve" <bcleve@pop.tiac.net>
Subject: Re: (exotica) Re: napster
At 12:14 PM -0500 7/31/00, Mimi Mayer wrote:
>OK, on to my question: do the megachain category killer music stores snatch
>a bigger chunk of royalities from artists? What about discounters like
>CDNow?
Sometimes they do : they charge the record labels for prime display space
as well as for things like listening posts. The labels pay to have their
product displayed in the front of the store, or above the racks, etc. There
are different fees for different places. Listening post costs, for example,
are about $20,000 for a few weeks worth of display time in all the stores
in a particular chain. These costs are recouplable (charged back) to the
artist and deducted from their royalties.
There is also co-op advertising, which can include a certain amount of
discs being sold to a chain for less to sweeten the deal. This can result
in a reduced rate royalty for those discs.
br cleve
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Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:46:27 EDT
From: SLarry3595@aol.com
Subject: Re: (exotica) Re: napsterm & record co. tricks
<< Sometimes they do : they charge the record labels for prime display space
as well as for things like listening posts. The labels pay to have their
product displayed in the front of the store, or above the racks, etc. There
are different fees for different places. Listening post costs, for example,
are about $20,000 for a few weeks worth of display time in all the stores
in a particular chain. These costs are recouplable (charged back) to the
artist and deducted from their royalties. >>
This is a very true and sad fact. The record companies pay the large cd
retailers to put the cds they want to be hits out on the display areas in the
front of the aisles, then pass this charge onto the artist but deducting it
from profits. It benefits the chain and it benefits the record company but
is PAID FOR by the artist. This is an abominable practice and I WISH THAT
EVERYONE WHO EVER GOES INTO A CHAIN CD STORE KNEW THAT WHAT THEY SEE ON THE
FRONT OF THE AISLES AND AT THE LISTENING STATIONS IS PAID ADVERTISING.
The major labels also have other tricks to make sure that their new HIT cd
comes out of the box high on the charts by requiring stores to order a
certain number of copies in order to have any. Ofcourse, if they don't sell
they are later returned for credit (like in the magazine business) and end up
as cut-outs. That is part of the reason you see so many major hit records as
cut-outs several years after they are initially released. Record sales
charts have become one giant "shell game."
I have been told by someone who works for a label that does reissues that
they do not do reissues unless they anticipate sales over 10,000 units. This
makes it very clear why some great stuff never gets reissued. Let's say a
killer LP is reissued on cd. Out of the 100 or so people on this list (who
are all fanatical music collectors) maybe half will purchase it. Imagine how
hard it is to sell 10,000 copies of a 50 year old record when you are
competing against these giant money machine ad campaigns.
Larry
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 21:07:04 +0200
From: "Rino Vincken" <cody@xs4all.nl>
Subject: (exotica) Napster
He, ever since the invention of the phonograph people had to pay to own the
music. Why is paying
to own music such an issue now? You don't go about stealing cars if you want
to drive one, well do ya? And by the way, hasn't the inventor of Napster
become a multi-fuckin'-millionaire? I can't say that
of 97% of the artist from which the music gets stolen through that same
Napster. End of discussion!
Rino
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:50:23 -0600
From: JT <tydirium@suba.com>
Subject: Re: (exotica) Re: Kahiki rebellion
Michael wrote:
>What you're really paying for is the event itself, especially Don Tiki.
>Don't forget when you see a band on tour, that their transportation
>expenses get divided over the whole tour. With a single fly-in date, they
>all need to be covered at once, and here costs are divided among a few
>hundred people as the Columbus fire code capacities allow. With the Don
>Tiki show, I hear there are 11 people involved (9 musicians + 2 dancers?)
>whose travel and lodging expenses from 6 time zones away in Hawaii need
>to be dealt with. And rental of sound/PA equipment, etc. etc.
I am acutely aware of the costs incurred by an event like this; I tour
professionally with a number of bands ranging from Ministry to Royal Crown
Revue (I spent most of 1999 as RCR's full time touring sound engineer. Now
if only they'd get back on the road!). And you are right, it is very
expensive. RCR does fly-ins and they definately charge large cash for
them.
But that doesn't change the fact that (no offense to your DJ skills) the
ENTIRE Chicago group* sees your presence as a detrement. I have nothing
against DJ's, and a good Exotica DJ who knows his stuff is someone we are
excited to have at events like (to use Chicago as an example) Fizz's
Wednesday night Sneaky Tiki party, Holiday's Sunday night Luau Lounge, the
Exotica 2000 art opening/party we threw at Mark Bello's place in April, or
the occasional Exotica night at Delilah's.
But ALL* of us here in Chicago agree that the vintage Tiki Bars are best
enjoyed in their original context as much as possible, and adding modern
"club scene" elements like DJ's take away from that element of
authenticity. The piped in old Hawaiian music IS preferable to a DJ - no
matter WHAT he is spinning - in my book. Piped in Martin Denny is even
better... and the three piece band that has been at Kahiki for ever is
just fine by me.
Additionally, while Don Tiki are great at what they do, seeing 'modern'
lounge bands like Don and Com.Edison just bore me. But that's a personal
opinion. There is something intangible that I can't really put my finger
on about the old stuff that is pure magic, and just can't be recreated by
ANY new artist, no matter how taleneted. So for this reason, as well as
the above reasons relating to the DJ, I don't consdier them a draw. But I
am not sure how the others here in Chi feel about that aspect.
So again, even if you forget the price tag, we would STILL rather show up
on a 'normal' night and enjoy the Kahiki as we always have, in it's 'real'
context. Take into consideration people who have never had a chance to go
there - they might have a great time on the 26th, but they'll never get to
experience the 'real' Kahiki.
Anyway, I am not saying anyone else is 'wrong' - do what you enjoy, have a
great time, make your life a fulfilling place to be. And please respect my
right to have a differing opinion on this thing. To reiterate what I said
to Otto in a previous list posting/Email, we are not trying to be
confrontational or create tension between the midwest Bamboo Crew and our
brothers on the coasts, it's just that we have a difference of opinion
regarding THIS ONE EVENT. That's nothing to get upset about.
additionally...
>>and also we'd rather be by the big
>>fireplace than stuck in the basement...
>
>The event is taking over the *entire* building, BTW. I'm not sure but I
>think Don Tiki may actually be performing in front of the fireplace Tiki
>mouth.
Well, what I have heard is that Micheal Tsao (Kahiki owner) is actually
throwing this party for his friends and associates, and they get the
upstairs. The relatively small number of tickets (100?) that Otto has been
alotted for Tiki News readers, etc., will be downstairs. But that's just
what I heard. Care to comment, Otto? Maybe you can clear this up.
>While I do admittedly think the price set by the Kahiki is still somewhat
>over-priced, this is just a *very* expensive event to put on. It's been
>priced out of the range of anyone I know regionally that wanted to attend
>and I'm *really* bummed about it. As passionate as I am about the event,
>if I weren't involved in it, I don't think I'd be able to swing it
>myself.
Right. It is too expensive, and that is because of the costs incurred by
the entertainment that we don't want.
If they ditched some of the spectacle, and made it just a nice night at the
Kahiki, one last time, the cost would go down (for all), and the attraction
would go up (for some). I suppose that's a good summary of our feelings.
Anyway, do indeed have an awesome time, I hope you find that the trip from
Cali is worth it for you.
Iorana!
James
Tiki Bar Review Pages
http://www.tydirium.net
* = (with the exception of two guys known to some of you on the west coast
who have removed themselves - through their actions - from the larger group
of Tiki Fanatics here)
...
- -
www.tydirium.net:
* Tydirium Multimedia
* Left Orbit Temple
* Blue Harvest
* Tiki Bar Review Pages
* Jazz Baby
...and my own weird ramblings and tour journals
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:29:20 -0700
From: "paul thomas" <hepcatpaul@lycos.com>
Subject: (exotica) Look out! More Napster!
First of all I'd like to know if there's a lawyer on this list who could give us (pro bono, of course!) a legalistic opinion on copyright violation rather than the moral/ethical debate going on?
There's an interesting article in today's Wall Street Journal on the Napster case. Napster vs Record Industry hinges on two cases: the 1992 Audio Home Recording Act (which allows you to record audio tapes without paying a 'fee') and the Digital Millenium Copyright Act of 1998 (under which Napster may or may not be protected from the actions of its users ... I presume that means the uploading/downloading of a musician's songs). It looks like Napster has pretty sound legal grounding on this but it will probably settle with the record industry.
Ultimately, if Napster does not charge a fee to enter the site or to upload/download music, if it is a host, then, strictly speaking no one is violating anything ... it's like a big, big tape-making chain. If Napster were charging a fee and then refusing to share royalties with the artists ... obviously that's very different.
Whatever happens, Napster or Napster-like sites are not going to go away. The record industry might as well get used to it.
~~paul~~
Get your FREE Email and Voicemail at Lycos Communications - http://comm.lycos.com
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 00 16:35:54 -0400
From: "Michael D. Toth" <mtoth@neo.lrun.com>
Subject: Re: (exotica) Re: Kahiki rebellion
>"club scene" elements like DJ's take away from that element of
>authenticity. The piped in old Hawaiian music IS preferable to a DJ - no
>matter WHAT he is spinning - in my book. Piped in Martin Denny is even
>better... and the three piece band that has been at Kahiki for ever is
>just fine by me.
I guess I don't see what the big deal about DJs is -- all they're doing
is programming what is being piped in. The DJs are probably going to be
physically unseen by most folks. Maybe it's a Chicago club-induced thing,
but it's a distinction I don't understand. I very much respect your
having a different opinion -- I just wish I understood it. ;-)
Actually, they've had several bands, and the most recent which plays
steel drum renditions of Jimmy Buffet tunes, I can REALLY do without.
>Additionally, while Don Tiki are great at what they do, seeing 'modern'
>lounge bands like Don and Com.Edison just bore me. But that's a personal
>opinion. There is something intangible that I can't really put my finger
>on about the old stuff that is pure magic, and just can't be recreated by
>ANY new artist, no matter how taleneted.
Maybe the reason I haven't been as disappointed is I didn't view them as
"recreating" anything, but carrying the torch, and particularly in the
case of ComEd, doing something new that was inspired by the vintage
music. More "extension" of the music than "recreation."
>Well, what I have heard is that Micheal Tsao (Kahiki owner) is actually
>throwing this party for his friends and associates, and they get the
>upstairs. The relatively small number of tickets (100?) that Otto has been
>alotted for Tiki News readers, etc., will be downstairs. But that's just
>what I heard. Care to comment, Otto? Maybe you can clear this up.
There's actually all sorts of misunderstandings inherent in this that I
won't attempt to clear up. Over to you, Otto...
>Right. It is too expensive, and that is because of the costs incurred by
>the entertainment that we don't want.
So it's not for you, but other people want it bad enough to shell out
$100 a head for it. You're just not one of those people.
>If they ditched some of the spectacle, and made it just a nice night at the
>Kahiki, one last time, the cost would go down (for all), and the attraction
>would go up (for some). I suppose that's a good summary of our feelings.
That's a different event. *This* one is the Spectacle, a one-time event
that is NOT just "a typical day at the Kahiki." For the non-special,
"real" Kahiki experience, folks will have to just arrive a day or two
earlier, as you are doing, and as I recommended to other regional friends
(to whom I forwarded your original post).
Michael David Toth
mtoth@neo.lrun.com
mtoth@neo.rr.com
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Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:24:45 -0600
From: JT <tydirium@suba.com>
Subject: (exotica) Napster Digest
Hey guys
You know, a few days ago someone said something to the effect of: "what do
y'all think of this Napster thang"?
And now the past 4 or 5 digests have been 50%-90% Napster.
There is a newsgroup to discuss Napster...
There is a newsgroup to discuss Copyright issues...
There is a newsgroup to discuss the moral impilcations of ripping CD's and
MP3-ing them...
So lets talk about music and tiki bars!
James
Tiki Bar review Pages
http://www.tydirium.net
...
- -
www.tydirium.net:
* Tydirium Multimedia
* Left Orbit Temple
* Blue Harvest
* Tiki Bar Review Pages
* Jazz Baby
...and my own weird ramblings and tour journals
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Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 16:36:07 -0500
From: "Robin D. Laws" <rdl@ican.net>
Subject: Re: (exotica) Nat's documentry
At 05:30 PM 7/29/00 -0400, alan zweig wrote:
>"Oh yeah, I just made a film which is relevant
>to the stuff we talk about here" (Plus you can enjoy spotting the odd
>record as the image flies by.)
I caught the film's Toronto screening and must say that
it stands on its own as a superb documentary. If it
finds the audience it deserves it will garner praise
from more than just the hip record collecting community.
Take care >>> Robin
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:49:27 +0200
From: Dj Batman <djbatman@olografix.org>
Subject: Re: (exotica) Look out! More Napster!
> First of all I'd like to know if there's a lawyer
I'm not exactly a lawyer but the arguments against Napster from my lawyer
are exactly the same use by Judge Patel.
More than a copyright violation, it is a question of product liability:
i.e. the program has been made in such a way that helps committing a
violation.
Like when you buy a car without brakes and you kill someone: you are
responsible for your own driving style and for not respecting the speed
limits; but the company who produced the car is even more liable.
> There's an interesting article in today's Wall Street Journal on the
Napster case. Napster vs Record Industry hinges on two cases: the 1992
Audio Home Recording Act (which allows you to record audio tapes without
paying a 'fee') and the Digital Millenium Copyright Act of 1998 (under
which Napster may or may not be protected from the actions of its users ...
I presume that means the uploading/downloading of a musician's songs). It
looks like Napster has pretty sound legal grounding on this but it will
probably settle with the record industry.
I must admit my ignorance on the exact contents of the Digital Millennium
Act, but as for that Audio Home recording thing, the fundamental difference
is that with home taping the copyright owner is (at least theorically)
compensated with a small tax on the price of blank tapes, DATs etc.
With Napster and simialr systems there is no tax on and no support to tax
(!) so this is the main problem.
A solution could be transforming Napster in "adware" and use the profits
from the commercials to pay the artists...
DjB
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 17:23:41 -0400
From: Bump <bumpy@megsinet.net>
Subject: Re: (exotica) Napster...
>Yes, bumpy we are talking about stealing (that's defined as obtaining
>something that is ofr sale without paying for it).
its not stealing , its accessing.
steal (stTl) v. stole (st=C5l), sto0len (st=C52l=F5n), steal0ing, steals.
- -tr.
1. To take (the property of another) without right or permission.
in napsters case, people are offering THEIR property free of charge.
I was just taking your
>inane logic to an even more ridiculous level than you were. Not as ridiculo=
us
>as your statement of you "firends" who work 3 jobs in order to try to get a=
ll
>the Martin Denny records (har har har har!).
i think my point was , oh intelligent one, that "there are lots of people
who cannot afford to buy all the music the would like to hear". so why not
help them out if you can?
>Here is the wisdom oh dense one. Recording artsts get paid by the amount of
>records sold. So if deadbeats like you download music for free they don't g=
et
>paid as much.
well then maybe they should take on that 4th job, or be more creative!
"cause we're here, we're severe, get used to it!"
Just because there is some
>piece of property in a public forum it doesn't mean thst the artist or the
>artist's record company put it there.
then how did it appear as digital information in the first place?
it WAS put out to the public on some format first either by the artists
making it themselves or the record company? so what i am saying, people can
do whatever they want with what they buy.
(as long as they don't try to bootleg it)
if they want to share it then they should be able to.
if someone like napster is clever enough to create something that can do
that on a grand scale then CHEERS to them.
bumpster
p.s i just read that Assley ran Scamp. or should that be SCREWED?
(just thought i would stoop to that slimy level for a second and do a
little name calling myself)
i loved Scamp and was sorry to see it go. i know it was not from me,
this deadbeat BOUGHT quite a few of their releases!
there is something to be said about nice packaging and good taste.
p.p.s for me, this whole mp3 thing is just like having your own private
listening booth, avoiding having to deal with a cheesy record store. (being
able only to listen what is at their listening stations etc etc.) it gives
me amore informed decision on what i WILL buy.
i buy thousands of dollars worth of records and cd's a year,
to be able to preview is a neccessity.
it can only help everyone in the long run and hopefully improve the record
industry's "gene pool".
personally my pipe dream would be to see the Major labels dissappear and
the artists and indie labels deal directly with the independent
distributors. i am talking about the FUTURE Exoticats and kitties
putting out music, so we don't have Big Record Companies keeping their
greedy little paws around the gems they have locked away in their vaults.
p.p.p.s such gratification i will achieve with every download i make ,
seeing ashley getting angrier
with every transfered bit until he spontaneously combusts.
enough already
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Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 17:41:02 -0400
From: itsvern@ibm.net
Subject: (exotica) another view
What I find interesting about the whole Napster phenomena is that
millions of people are so willing to do something that is 'officially
illegal. .... to many, downloading napster files is just as acceptable
as regularly driving 5 mile over the speed limit.
It's a bit ironic that during the past 10 years, many of the record
labels have been signing and promoting bands whose song lyrics focus on
'doing one's own thing' and 'not conforming to society' and similar
topics... with perhaps Ice-T's 'Cop Killer' being the most notorious
example.
Now they're upset and are so upset about all these college aged
students, who having spent the last 10 years listening to these
messages, see no problem with downloading all those napster files for
free.
The recording industry does not have the best of reputations. Whether
the complaints are from the liberal side (they rip off the artists, the
high costs of CDs) or the conservative side (they promote alcohol and
drug use and other sinful behavior), there has been a growing antagonism
against the record labels in the past 15 years, and many people don't
mind one bit at all that they are squirming a bit now.
Just because the laws might currently favor the recording industry,
doesn't mean that those laws can't or won't be overwritten and changed.
A million napster users represents a lot of voters, most who come from a
normally politically apathetic group. I could easily envision some
future political scenario where a Jesse Ventura type character comes
along, says something populist statement like 'I'm all for the people
and pro-Napster' and thus gets elected.....
Vern
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 18:06:11 EDT
From: DJJimmyBee@aol.com
Subject: (exotica) Re: Kahiki rebellion
In a message dated 7/31/0 4:34:28 PM, mtoth@neo.lrun.com wrote:
>Actually, they've had several bands, and the most recent which plays
>steel drum renditions of Jimmy Buffet tunes, I can REALLY do without.
Up at Kowloon's here in Boston, the times I visited they had an 8T's cover
band. That was actually kinda sad to witness in such an environment. For me,
the music makes or breaks the good time. Without it all you have is four
(nicely decorated) walls and a table & chairs... JB/a room is still a room
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 17:29:42 -0500
From: mimim@texas.net (Mimi Mayer)
Subject: Re: (exotica) Napster...(Part 1) ((Oh no, not more!))
Hi Tiki Bob, (Sorry, everyone else, just want to say this publicly).
I wrote yesterday:
><<Gotta ask you a question, Tiki Bob. . . . . . I'm just wondering how yo=
u
>>square this admiration with copying
>>and downloading like a bastard. Don't you see that you are harming your
>>idol (and other musicians you dig) by depriving them of income they deserv=
e
>>when you reproduce their intellectual creations with no rights reserved?
>
>
>Really, I'm just wondering. Mimi>>
You wrote today:
>both of these quotes (that hit squarely between my eyes) assume that i have
>no respect for any artists.
TB, I suggest you reread my post, which appears in its entirety above. I
chose my words and phrasing carefully to avoid giving you any impression of
a personal attack. I was mystified.
...
>but first. i have a thick skin. i can take it as well as i can dish it ou=
t.
> but honestly? i found the transformation of this discussion from peoples'
>opinions to more personal attacks rather disturbing. this is probably the
>first time i have really felt this way in 5 years.
=46rankly, I sent the post as a visceral reaction to the close of your post:
"i will continue to copy and download like a bastard. for those
who have received CD's from me -- you will notice that my CD's are produced
>by "Bootleg Productions - With no rights observed."
You know how this statement hit me? You'll rip and reproduce as much as you
want, you'll burn CDs from MP3 files and f*** anyone who dares to stop me.
With no rights observed.
Only later did you explain that you go to great pains NOT to rip off the
artists. Sorry, TB, I was ignorant of your heretofore private practices.
And I really dislike being nailed for taking at face value a defiant boast
that you'll download like a bastard with no rights observed. If you post an
incendiary statement in a public forum, don't duck responsibility later
when someone says, Hey, didn't you start this fire?
>what also bothers me is that i was being attacked by people who have
>downloaded or copied or sampled or whatever other artists works, and
>distributed those artists works without compensating them. the same thing
>they say i so wantonly do.
Because you said you wantonly download like a bastard, maybe? C'mon, Robert.
BTW, if this dig is directed at me, please, let me disavow you of your
error. I have never used Napster, never downloaded an MP3 file--my blazing
33.3K modem hiccups such large meals. And I'm high priestess of the
primitive Cult of the Actual Object. I'm spiritually born to prefer a real
pancho over a Sears poncho.
Tiki Bob, it's a pity you took my message, written to sidestep the least
hint of hostility, as an attack. Have a joint and mai-tai (will join you
for the mai-tai) and worry about real problems, pal--like whether your
corner liquor store will have plenty of Trader Vic's orgeat in stock.
Mimi
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