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abolition-usa-digest   Thursday, September 20 2001   Volume 01 : Number 469




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 18:37:31 -0400
From: ASlater <[e-mail]>
Subject: (abolition-usa) Fwd: Latest Update on Your Good Work

>Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:00:40 -0700
>From: "Fran Korten" <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>X-Sender:  (Unverified)
>Subject: Latest Update on Your Good Work
>X-Loop-Detect: 1
>
>My dear State of the Possible community,
>
>I sense the tide is starting to turn on what has appeared to be the=
 dominant
>call for war.  I know you are all part of making that shift happen and I'm
>so glad to be connected to each and every one of you.
>
>Let me highlight for you some of what I see as the most hopeful signs --
>signs that are now being picked up by the press (New York Times, ABC, NPR
>and others).  We need to add to that momentum.  If you can bring these
>initiatives to the attention of people in your networks, and the press in
>your area, that can help shift the sense of what Americans want.
>
>JUSTICE NOT VENGEANCE INITIATIVE - Last weekend, when Danny Glover was in
>Seattle we talked about what can be done.  We decided that rounding up some
>well-known voices to advocate moderation would help break the media spell=
 so
>focused on support for war.  So Danny, Dave Korten, Sarah van Gelder, and I
>teamed up with Harry Belafonte (who is on the board of the Institute for
>Policy Studies) and John Cavanagh and Sarah Anderson of IPS to develop a
>statement and get sign-ons.  Together with Rod Arakaki and Carol Estes=
 we've
>called on our wider networks, including a number of you for help on this,
>and you have all been fabulous.
>
>Below I attach a press release that went out yesterday.  We've been looking
>for "household names" to add to Harry and Danny's star power and now have
>Gloria Steinem (thanks to Susan Davis for that); Rosa Parks (thanks to=
 Grace
>Boggs for that); Ben Cohen and Jerry Greenfield of Ben and Jerry's (thanks
>to Dave for that); Alice Walker (thanks to Belvie for that); Martin Sheen
>(thanks to Rod's friend of a friend); Bonnie Raitt, and many others.  Plus
>many of you have also signed on which is great -- though of course the=
 media
>are looking for the big names.
>
>NPR carried a good story on this and related initiatives last night on All
>Things Considered, the New York Times had a lovely story that mentioned=
 this
>initiative today, and ABC is likely to cover it tonight -- as well as many
>other media.
>
>We continue to look for names with "star power."  I fyou know of anyone=
 with
>high name recognition, please have them sign on.  You can find the=
 statement
>at www.yesmagazine.org and at www.ips-dc.org.  They can email their name=
 to:=20
>[e-mail] or fax to David Korten at 206/842-5350.=20
>
>RELIGIOUS INITIATIVE - The National Council of Churches, working together
>with Jim Wallis of Sojourners and others, has mounted a call for=
 "tolerance,
>compassion, justice and the sacredness of human life" that has now been
>signed on to by more than 1500 religious leaders -- mostly Christian, but
>also Muslim, Jewish and others.  It is being delivered to the Congress
>today.  You can view that at www.ncccusa.org.
>
>MASS PETITIONS - Two mass petitions have gained tremendous momentum.   One
>is "A call for Peace and Justice" which has more than 150,000 signatures.
>It's on www.thepetitionsite.com.  Another one is at
>www.9-11peace.org/petition.php3.  It now has over 300,000 signatures.
>
>STUDENT PEACE RALLIES AND VIGILS - There is so much evidence that students
>are really mobilizing. Juliette Beck at Global Exchange says there are
>vigils and rallies today (Thursday) on more than 146 campuses around the
>country -- and growing every minute.  The site that reports on this great
>work is www.peacefuljustice.cjb.net/.
>
>HATE-FREE ZONES - In response to some of the terrible acts of hate against
>people who look different (such as the killing of a Sikh person in=
 Arizona),
>there is growing momentum to declare cities and states "Hate-Free Zones".
>Kelly Quirke wrote to us of the beautiful mass rally in San Francisco held
>last Sunday attended by over 1,000 people.  I think several of you were
>involved in that.  San Francisco was declared a Hate Free Zone in support=
 of
>and in solidarity with all the people, especially people of color.  Check
>out the Global Exchange website to get a Hate Free Zone action pack,
>including a downloadable poster at  www.globalexchange.org
>
>Here in Washington State, Pramila Jayapal got the whole state on board to
>declare Washington a Hate-Free Zone.    On Tuesday the effort was launched
>with Governor Gary Locke, Seattle mayor Paul Schell, a U.S. Congressman=
 (Jim
>McDermott) and other prominent people here.  Seattle's City Council also
>declared Seattle a Hate-Free Zone (hooray for Richard Conlin for being part
>of that).   Pramila is now preparing packages to send to any city that=
 wants
>to join the momentum.  You can contact pramila at:  [e-mail]
>
>WWW.YESMAGAZINE.ORG - Ours is one of many great websites that many of you
>are involved with.  On our site we've got the Justice Not Vengeance
>statement and sign-ons, a list of "10 Things You Can Do to Shape History,"
>two downloadable images -- one of them of a flag that says "Americans Stand
>for Justice, Not Vengeance."  Plus prayers, analyses, sample letters to the
>editor, and other resources all designed to encourage people to speak out
>and shape the nation's sense of it's own response to this terrible tragedy.
>Our whole staff has mobilized on this.  We've been getting lots of grateful
>responses from people who feel alone and isolated in their desire for
>moderation, compassion and understanding.
>
>And of course there are tons of local things going on, large and small,=
 that
>I know every one of you is involved in.   Do keep spreading the word about
>what people can do.=20
>
>
>My love and best wishes to all of you for all the great work you are doing.
>
>Fran
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Here's the press release on the Justice, Not Vengeance initiative.
>
>David Lerner [phone]; [e-mail]
>John Cavanagh [phone]; [e-mail]
>David Korten
>Fran Korten [phone] x205; [e-mail]
>Sarah Van Gelder [phone] x214; [e-mail]
>
>DIVERSE COALTION OF AMERICANS SPEAK OUT AGAINST WAR AS SOLUTION TO=
 TERRORISM
>
>Rosa Parks, Danny Glover, Gloria Steinem And Harry Belafonte Join Effort
>Calling For Justice Not Vengeance
>
>September 19, 2001=D0As Americans begin to consider the implications of a
>military response against terrorism, an increasing number are voicing their
>opposition to precipitous acts that may involve the world in a deadly
>conflict. Rosa Parks, Harry Belafonte, Danny Glover, and Gloria Steinem=
 have
>joined Ben Cohen and a number of business, environmental, religious, and
>civil society leaders to speak out against war as the solution to=
 terrorism.
>In a statement released today, these leaders argue that a "military=
 response
>would not end the terror."  They call for "bringing the terrorists to
>justice under the rule of law" and they argue against an erosion of civil
>liberties.
>
>The statement calls for a response to the September 11th disaster that is
>"prompt, just and effective." The signers questions whether "a military
>response will end the terror: As citizens of this great nation, we support
>the efforts being made to find those behind the acts of terror.  Bringing
>them to Justice under the rule of law ? not military action ? is the way to
>end the violence."
>
>The signers also note that while the terrorist acts were aimed at U.S.,
>citizens from more than 50 nations were among the victims:  "Our best=
 chance
>for preventing such devastating acts of terror is to act decisively and
>cooperatively as part of a community of nations within the framework of
>international law to route our terrorism and work for justice at home and
>abroad."
>
>The statement is one of many which are being developed by civil society
>groups including religious leaders and academics calling for justice rather
>than revenge. Newspaper advertisements and other initiatives are being
>planned. Reports from around the country indicate that activism is being
>planned throughout the coming months. On Thursday, students at 82 campuses
>in 25 states will hold peace rallies and vigils to call for restraint and
>reconciliation.=20
>
>The full statement is attached.  For further information and updates on
>peace activities please contact Riptide Communications 212.260.5000.
>--=20
>
>Frances F. Korten
>Executive Director
>Positive Futures Network
>PO Box 10818
>Bainbridge Island, WA 98110
>[e-mail]
>www.yesmagazine.org
>206/842-0216 (tel)
>206/842-5208 (fax)
>
>subscriptions to YES!
>$24/year
>CALL 1 800/937-4451
> =20

- -
 To unsubscribe to abolition-usa, send an email to "[e-mail]"
 with "unsubscribe abolition-usa" in the body of the message.
 For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send
 "help" to the same address.  Do not use quotes in your message.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 18:38:11 -0400
From: ASlater <[e-mail]>
Subject: (abolition-usa) Fwd: Latest Update on Your Good Work

>Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:00:40 -0700
>From: "Fran Korten" <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>X-Sender:  (Unverified)
>Subject: Latest Update on Your Good Work
>X-Loop-Detect: 1
>
>My dear State of the Possible community,
>
>I sense the tide is starting to turn on what has appeared to be the=
 dominant
>call for war.  I know you are all part of making that shift happen and I'm
>so glad to be connected to each and every one of you.
>
>Let me highlight for you some of what I see as the most hopeful signs --
>signs that are now being picked up by the press (New York Times, ABC, NPR
>and others).  We need to add to that momentum.  If you can bring these
>initiatives to the attention of people in your networks, and the press in
>your area, that can help shift the sense of what Americans want.
>
>JUSTICE NOT VENGEANCE INITIATIVE - Last weekend, when Danny Glover was in
>Seattle we talked about what can be done.  We decided that rounding up some
>well-known voices to advocate moderation would help break the media spell=
 so
>focused on support for war.  So Danny, Dave Korten, Sarah van Gelder, and I
>teamed up with Harry Belafonte (who is on the board of the Institute for
>Policy Studies) and John Cavanagh and Sarah Anderson of IPS to develop a
>statement and get sign-ons.  Together with Rod Arakaki and Carol Estes=
 we've
>called on our wider networks, including a number of you for help on this,
>and you have all been fabulous.
>
>Below I attach a press release that went out yesterday.  We've been looking
>for "household names" to add to Harry and Danny's star power and now have
>Gloria Steinem (thanks to Susan Davis for that); Rosa Parks (thanks to=
 Grace
>Boggs for that); Ben Cohen and Jerry Greenfield of Ben and Jerry's (thanks
>to Dave for that); Alice Walker (thanks to Belvie for that); Martin Sheen
>(thanks to Rod's friend of a friend); Bonnie Raitt, and many others.  Plus
>many of you have also signed on which is great -- though of course the=
 media
>are looking for the big names.
>
>NPR carried a good story on this and related initiatives last night on All
>Things Considered, the New York Times had a lovely story that mentioned=
 this
>initiative today, and ABC is likely to cover it tonight -- as well as many
>other media.
>
>We continue to look for names with "star power."  I fyou know of anyone=
 with
>high name recognition, please have them sign on.  You can find the=
 statement
>at www.yesmagazine.org and at www.ips-dc.org.  They can email their name=
 to:=20
>[e-mail] or fax to David Korten at 206/842-5350.=20
>
>RELIGIOUS INITIATIVE - The National Council of Churches, working together
>with Jim Wallis of Sojourners and others, has mounted a call for=
 "tolerance,
>compassion, justice and the sacredness of human life" that has now been
>signed on to by more than 1500 religious leaders -- mostly Christian, but
>also Muslim, Jewish and others.  It is being delivered to the Congress
>today.  You can view that at www.ncccusa.org.
>
>MASS PETITIONS - Two mass petitions have gained tremendous momentum.   One
>is "A call for Peace and Justice" which has more than 150,000 signatures.
>It's on www.thepetitionsite.com.  Another one is at
>www.9-11peace.org/petition.php3.  It now has over 300,000 signatures.
>
>STUDENT PEACE RALLIES AND VIGILS - There is so much evidence that students
>are really mobilizing. Juliette Beck at Global Exchange says there are
>vigils and rallies today (Thursday) on more than 146 campuses around the
>country -- and growing every minute.  The site that reports on this great
>work is www.peacefuljustice.cjb.net/.
>
>HATE-FREE ZONES - In response to some of the terrible acts of hate against
>people who look different (such as the killing of a Sikh person in=
 Arizona),
>there is growing momentum to declare cities and states "Hate-Free Zones".
>Kelly Quirke wrote to us of the beautiful mass rally in San Francisco held
>last Sunday attended by over 1,000 people.  I think several of you were
>involved in that.  San Francisco was declared a Hate Free Zone in support=
 of
>and in solidarity with all the people, especially people of color.  Check
>out the Global Exchange website to get a Hate Free Zone action pack,
>including a downloadable poster at  www.globalexchange.org
>
>Here in Washington State, Pramila Jayapal got the whole state on board to
>declare Washington a Hate-Free Zone.    On Tuesday the effort was launched
>with Governor Gary Locke, Seattle mayor Paul Schell, a U.S. Congressman=
 (Jim
>McDermott) and other prominent people here.  Seattle's City Council also
>declared Seattle a Hate-Free Zone (hooray for Richard Conlin for being part
>of that).   Pramila is now preparing packages to send to any city that=
 wants
>to join the momentum.  You can contact pramila at:  [e-mail]
>
>WWW.YESMAGAZINE.ORG - Ours is one of many great websites that many of you
>are involved with.  On our site we've got the Justice Not Vengeance
>statement and sign-ons, a list of "10 Things You Can Do to Shape History,"
>two downloadable images -- one of them of a flag that says "Americans Stand
>for Justice, Not Vengeance."  Plus prayers, analyses, sample letters to the
>editor, and other resources all designed to encourage people to speak out
>and shape the nation's sense of it's own response to this terrible tragedy.
>Our whole staff has mobilized on this.  We've been getting lots of grateful
>responses from people who feel alone and isolated in their desire for
>moderation, compassion and understanding.
>
>And of course there are tons of local things going on, large and small,=
 that
>I know every one of you is involved in.   Do keep spreading the word about
>what people can do.=20
>
>
>My love and best wishes to all of you for all the great work you are doing.
>
>Fran
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Here's the press release on the Justice, Not Vengeance initiative.
>
>David Lerner [phone]; [e-mail]
>John Cavanagh [phone]; [e-mail]
>David Korten
>Fran Korten [phone] x205; [e-mail]
>Sarah Van Gelder [phone] x214; [e-mail]
>
>DIVERSE COALTION OF AMERICANS SPEAK OUT AGAINST WAR AS SOLUTION TO=
 TERRORISM
>
>Rosa Parks, Danny Glover, Gloria Steinem And Harry Belafonte Join Effort
>Calling For Justice Not Vengeance
>
>September 19, 2001=D0As Americans begin to consider the implications of a
>military response against terrorism, an increasing number are voicing their
>opposition to precipitous acts that may involve the world in a deadly
>conflict. Rosa Parks, Harry Belafonte, Danny Glover, and Gloria Steinem=
 have
>joined Ben Cohen and a number of business, environmental, religious, and
>civil society leaders to speak out against war as the solution to=
 terrorism.
>In a statement released today, these leaders argue that a "military=
 response
>would not end the terror."  They call for "bringing the terrorists to
>justice under the rule of law" and they argue against an erosion of civil
>liberties.
>
>The statement calls for a response to the September 11th disaster that is
>"prompt, just and effective." The signers questions whether "a military
>response will end the terror: As citizens of this great nation, we support
>the efforts being made to find those behind the acts of terror.  Bringing
>them to Justice under the rule of law ? not military action ? is the way to
>end the violence."
>
>The signers also note that while the terrorist acts were aimed at U.S.,
>citizens from more than 50 nations were among the victims:  "Our best=
 chance
>for preventing such devastating acts of terror is to act decisively and
>cooperatively as part of a community of nations within the framework of
>international law to route our terrorism and work for justice at home and
>abroad."
>
>The statement is one of many which are being developed by civil society
>groups including religious leaders and academics calling for justice rather
>than revenge. Newspaper advertisements and other initiatives are being
>planned. Reports from around the country indicate that activism is being
>planned throughout the coming months. On Thursday, students at 82 campuses
>in 25 states will hold peace rallies and vigils to call for restraint and
>reconciliation.=20
>
>The full statement is attached.  For further information and updates on
>peace activities please contact Riptide Communications 212.260.5000.
>--=20
>
>Frances F. Korten
>Executive Director
>Positive Futures Network
>PO Box 10818
>Bainbridge Island, WA 98110
>[e-mail]
>www.yesmagazine.org
>206/842-0216 (tel)
>206/842-5208 (fax)
>
>subscriptions to YES!
>$24/year
>CALL 1 800/937-4451
> =20

- -
 To unsubscribe to abolition-usa, send an email to "[e-mail]"
 with "unsubscribe abolition-usa" in the body of the message.
 For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send
 "help" to the same address.  Do not use quotes in your message.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:38:44 -0500
From: "Boyle, Francis" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (abolition-usa) FW: RULE OF LAW VS. RULE OF WAR: Are Media Missing the Lesson of  Okl  ahoma City?

- -----Original Message-----
From: Max Obuszewski [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 4:01 PM
Subject: RULE OF LAW VS. RULE OF WAR: Are Media Missing the Lesson of
Okl ahoma City?


RULE OF LAW VS. RULE OF WAR: Are Media Missing the Lesson of Oklahoma City?

 By Jeff Cohen <[e-mail]>

 Sept 19, 2001

 Many media voices are enlisting in the push toward war. CBS anchor Dan
Rather seemed more soldier than reporter on Monday's Letterman show when he
endorsed the war drive and added: "George Bush is the President.. Wherever
he wants me to line up, just tell me where."

 It's worth remembering that a similar push followed the last dreadful act
of terrorism against America on our soil, Oklahoma City. Many in the mass
media immediately began goading us toward retaliation against a presumed
Arab, Islamic enemy. Columnist Mike Royko called for the overseas bombing of
civilian infrastructures: "If it happens to be the wrong country, well, too
bad."

 The bellicose rhetoric came to a stunning halt as soon as it was learned
that the anti-American terrorists were not from the Mideast. In fact, one
was from the Midwest -- Michigan. The leader was Timothy McVeigh, who went
to his death believing himself to be at war against the U.S.

 Perhaps the lesson to be learned from Oklahoma City is that our country did
not take the bait. The U.S. did not declare war on McVeigh and his network
of extremist fellow-travelers. The Bill of Rights and civil liberties were
not trampled on the path to increased security.

 Instead, McVeigh and his accomplices were dealt with as a democracy
 deals with mass murderers. They were apprehended, prosecuted and
 punished after being given trials, lawyers, the right to confront
 witnesses and challenge evidence. The armed fanatics who sympathized with
McVeigh were not all hunted down and destroyed, but they've certainly been
quieted. Many of us abhor the death penalty that was given to McVeigh, but
the rule of law prevailed.

 The terrorists behind the attacks on the Twin Towers and the Pentagon are
more numerous, perhaps more dangerous and better protected than McVeigh and
friends. Still, it's appalling how little mainstream media have discussed
relying on the rule of law -- international law -- to pursue the foreign
terrorists.

 Few news reports have pointed out that there is one body under
 international law that can authorize military action: the United Nations
Security Council. If the U.S. has strong evidence against Osama bin Laden
and associates, and Afghanistan continues to refuse extradition to the U.S.,
the two countries could negotiate surrender of the suspects to a neutral
country for trial (as happened with Libyan agents tried for the Lockerbie
explosion). If that approach fails, the U.S. could present its case to the
Security Council, which could authorize the equivalent of an international
arrest warrant.

 That the United States of America should uphold and adhere to
 international law is seen as preposterous, un-American and weak. In a piece
titled, "To War, Not to Court," Washington Post columnist Charles
Krauthammer wrote: "Secretary of State Colin Powell's first reaction to the
day of infamy was to pledge to 'bring those responsible to justice.' This is
exactly wrong."

 Fox News Channel offered a rare interview with an actual expert in
 international law, Francis Boyle of University of Illinois, who offered
 a step-by-step legal process for pursuing the terrorists -- which
 provoked an indignant Bill O'Reilly to decry "empowering the U.N." Days
 later on his show, one of the most watched on cable news, O'Reilly
 advocated bombing and destroying the civilian infrastructures of
 Afghanistan and Iraq, followed by attacks on Libya.

 Listening to the Krauthammers and O'Reillys and leaping into unilateral
action does more than undermine the rule of law. It isolates the U.S.
instead of isolating the terrorists. Much of the world will see an excessive
or misdirected U.S. military action as a tragic rerun of adventures that
have callously injured innocent civilians from Panama to Iraq to Sudan.

 And a new misstep will breed ever more anti-American terrorists.
 --------------------------
 Jeff Cohen is the founder of FAIR, a national media watch group based in
Manhattan, and a media critic on the Fox News Channel.

 For more on media coverage since 911: http://www.fair.org
- ------
SHOW: THE O'REILLY FACTOR (20:29)

September 13, 2001 Thursday

Transcript # 091303cb.256

SECTION: News; Domestic

LENGTH: 3973 words

HEADLINE: America Unites
How Should the U.S. Bring Terrorists to Justice?

GUESTS: Sam Huessini, Francis Boyle

BYLINE: Bill O'Reilly

BODY: THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND
MAY BE UPDATED.

O'REILLY: While most Americans are united in their support of President Bush
and the desire to bring Osama bin Laden and other terrorists to justice,
there are some differing voices.

Joining us now from Washington is Sam Husseini, the former spokesman for the
Arab Anti -- American Anti-Discrimination Committee, and from Urbana,
Illinois, is Francis Boyle, an international law professor at the University
of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign..........

O'REILLY: Cut his mike. All right, now, Mr. Boyle, Professor Boyle, let's
have a little bit more of a rational discussion here. That was absurd.

The United States now has to take action against certain segments in this
world who we know have been harbouring people like Osama bin Laden. That's
going to happen. How will you react to that?

FRANCIS BOYLE, LAW PROFESSOR: Well, first I think you have to look at the
law involved. Clearly what we have here, under United States domestic law
and statutes, is an act of international terrorism that should be treated as
such. It is not yet elevated to an act of war. For an act of war, we need
proof that a foreign state actually ordered or launched an attack upon the
United States of America. So far, we do not yet have that evidence. We
could...

O'REILLY: All right, now why are you, why are you, why are you taking this
position when you know forces have attacked the United States. Now, maybe
they don't have a country, but they are forces. They have attacked the
United States, all right? Without warning, without provocation. Civilian
targets. They've done everything that an act of war does.

So, I'm saying that because we live in a different world now, where borders
don't really matter, where terrorism is the weapon of choice, that you would
declare war -- if I were President Bush, I would declare war on any hostile
forces, notice those words, professor, hostile forces to the United States.
I would have a blanket declaration of war so I could go in and kill those
people. Would I be wrong?

BOYLE: Well, Bill, so far you'll note Congress has been unwilling to
declare war. And indeed, this matter is being debated right now. Right now,
it appears that what they are seeking is not a full declaration of war, but
only what we law professors call an imperfect declaration, which means a
limited use of military force under the War Powers Resolution of 1973.

Precisely for the problem that we don't know if any state was involved and
we still do not know who was responsible for this undoubted terrorist attack
upon the United States of America.

O'REILLY: All right, but we have the secretary of state saying that Osama
bin Laden now has been linked into and, you know, we don't have all the
intelligence information, as President Bush said today. He's not going to
give us, and he shouldn't, the people of America all the information that
they have. But when the secretary of state gets up and says, look, we know
this guy was involved to some extent, I believe him.

And he's a wanted man, professor. He's been wanted for eight years. The
Clinton administration didn't have the heart to get him and in the first few
months the Bush administration didn't either. We now know, and you just
heard the FBI agent say that Afghanistan has been involved for years
harbouring and training these kinds of people. Certainly, Afghanistan,
Syria, Libya, Iran, Iraq, those five countries, certainly have been hostile
to the United States and given safe harbour to these terrorists. That's a
fact.

BOYLE: Well, let me point out, the secretary of state was very careful in
the words he used. He said Osama bin Laden was a suspect. He did not accuse
him. And, again, under these circumstances...

O'REILLY: No, he didn't use the word suspect. He used another word.

BOYLE: The account I read in, just off the wire service, said suspect. But
let me continue my point. Under these circumstances, where we have 5,000
Americans dead and we could have many more Americans killed in a conflict,
we have to be very careful, Congress and the American people and the
president, in not to over-escalate the rhetoric, here.

We have to look at this very rationally. This is a democracy. We have a
right to see what the evidence is and proceed in a very slow and deliberate
manner.

O'REILLY: No, we don't. We do not, as a republic, we don't have the right to
see what the evidence is if the evidence is of a national security
situation, as you know.

Now, I'm trusting my government to do the right thing, here. I am trusting.
But I think it's beyond a doubt right now, beyond a reasonable doubt, which
is, as you know, a court of law standard, that there are at least five,
North Korea you could put in to, six states in the world that have harboured
continually these terrorists.

Now, we know that this was a well-coordinated effort. Our initial
intelligence shows that some of the people that have been arrested have ties
to Osama bin Laden. We know, as you just heard the FBI agent say, that the
1993 bombing of the World Trade Center was tied in to a guy who knew bin
Laden. So, bin Laden -- I agree with you, that you don't want to be a
hothead. You don't want to overreact. You don't want to lob a missile at the
pharmaceutical plant in the Sudan, which was terrible, and that was the one
good point, or fair point, that Mr. Husseini made, you don't want to do
that.

But, on the other hand, professor, I think Americans are rightful, are
right, to demand action against states that we know in the past have
harboured these individuals and there's a warrant out for Osama bin Laden's
arrest. So, if he is in Afghanistan, I would give that government a couple
of days to hand him over, and if they did not, I'd go in.

BOYLE: Well, again. The American people are right. We need to see the
evidence. I remember people saying a generation ago, during the Vietnam war,
I trusted my government. And I think people of my generation found out that
that was wrong. We needed more evidence.

O'REILLY: All right. Professor, let me stop you there, though. This is
another point that Mr. Husseini tried to make. Just because the United
States of America has made mistakes in the past, does not mean that we
cannot defend ourselves now.

This is a unique situation in history. We have now been attacked by forces
without borders, OK? We've been attacked. And it hasn't been a military
attack, it's been an attack on civilians. The reason, the sole reason a
federal government exists is to protect the people of the United States.

And as I said in my "Talking Points" memo, they haven't really done the job,
for political reasons.

But now's the time to correct those things. So, there's going to be a
reckoning, Professor. You know it's going to happen. I know it's going to
happen. And it's going to come down on Osama bin Laden first and maybe some
of these rouge states later. Will you support that action?

BOYLE: Before I support a war that will jeopardize the lives of tens of
thousands of our servicemen and women, I want to see the evidence that we
are relying on to justify this. So far, I do not see it. I see allegations.

I see innuendo. I see winks and I see nods, but I do not see the evidence
that you need under international law and the United States constitution so
far to go to war. Maybe that evidence will be there, but it is not there
now.

My recommendation to Congress is to slow down, let's see what develops and
let's see what this evidence is before we knowingly go out and not only kill
large numbers of people, perhaps in Afghanistan and other countries, but
undoubtedly in our own armed forces.

58,000 men of my generation will killed in Vietnam because of irresponsible
behavior by the Johnson administration rushing that Tonkin Gulf resolution
through Congress, exactly what we're seeing now. And we need to pull back
and stop and think and ask the hard questions and demand to see the evidence
first, before we march off to war.

O'REILLY: All right, so it's not enough that people arrested in the
bombings of the embassies in Africa testified in court that Osama bin Laden
was behind and financed and coordinated those bombings. That evidence is not
enough for you?

BOYLE: Well, Africa is a very is a very different story than what happened
in the World Trade Center.

O'REILLY: No, it's not. He's wanted, he's wanted in the United States for
the bombings of those two embassies. Is that evidence enough for you,
professor, for the United States to go in and get this man? Is it enough?

BOYLE: That, that matter was treated and handled as an act of international
terrorism in accordance with the normal laws and procedures of the United
States of America as a question of domestic and international law
enforcement. And I am suggesting that is the way we need to proceed here...

O'REILLY: Well, wait. You're dodging the question professor.

BOYLE: ... unless we have evidence that...

O'REILLY: Wait, professor. Professor. This is a no spin zone. Hold it. Hold
it. Even out in Urbana Champagne, the no spin zone rules. You're dodging the
question. There is an absolutely rock solid arrest warrant out for this man.
Evidence in court, testimony by people who did the bombings that this man
was behind it. Is that enough evidence for you to have the United States go
in and get him now? Is it enough?

BOYLE: The United States has been attempting to secure his extradition from
Afghanistan. I support...

O'REILLY: Yeah, that's long enough.

BOYLE: I support that approach as international...

O'REILLY: Come on already, I mean, eight years, we've been attempting to
extradite this guy. Now's the time to tell the Afghans you've got 48 hours
or 72 hours to turn him over. You don't turn him over, we're coming in and
getting him. You try to stop us, and you're toast. Enough is enough,
professor.

BOYLE: That's vigilantism. It is not what the United States of America is
supposed to stand for. We are supposed to stand...

O'REILLY: No, what that is is protecting the country from terrorists who
kill civilians.

BOYLE: ... for rule of law.

O'REILLY: It's not vigilantism.

BOYLE: We are supposed to stand for rule of law, and that is clearly
vigilantism. There is a Security Council, there is Congress, there are
procedures and there are laws, and they are there to protect all of us here
in the United States as well as...

O'REILLY: So, you're telling me...

BOYLE: ... as well as our servicemen and women. Look, Bill, if we
allegedly, as you put it, go in, you are not going in, I am not going in.
It's going to be young men and women serving in our armed forces...

O'REILLY: And that's their job. To protect us. But, professor, let me, you
know, what you're saying is, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold it. Hold it. Hold it.
Hold it.

B0YLE: ... with the constitution and the laws of the United States.

O'REILLY: We're not violating any laws here, professor. No one is going to
violate the law. There is going to be a state of war induced against states,
states, terroristic states, who have attacked us. And what you're saying is,
though, and correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying that even though there is
a legitimate warrant out for Osama bin Laden's arrest, and even though most
civilized nations would honor that warrant and turn him over to us,
extradite him to us, the vast majority of nations on earth would do that,
you still are opposed for the United States to demand that the Taliban
government arrest this man and turn him over? You are opposed to that?

BOYLE: During the Gulf War, President Bush's father, who has far more
experience that the current president Bush, got a Security Council
resolution authorizing the United States of America to use force to expel
Iraq from Kuwait. Second, President Bush's father got a War Powers
Authorization Resolution from Congress that gave him the constitutional
authority to use military force to enforce that Security Council resolution.

What I'm calling for here is the same adherence to international law and the
United States constitution that the first President Bush adhered to in
dealing with Iraq.

O'REILLY: Well, you'll get that, professor. That's just a formality. There
- -- nobody on Capitol Hill right now, they're not going to -- there's no
profile of courages up there anyway, usually. They're going to give
President Bush what he wants. If he wants a War Powers Act, they're going to
give it to him. He wants a declaration, they're going to give it to him.

BOYLE: Actually, they're arguing about it right now...

O'REILLY: They're going to give it to him. But I'm not interested in that,
because it's going to happen. It's going to happen.

BOYLE: The reports -- no, the reports I read was that this President Bush
initially asked for a blank check, and Congress balked because they had been
suckered once before...

O'REILLY: All right, I'm not -- speculation is not what I'm in -- all right,
professor. I don't want to speculate. I'm just going to say in my opinion
he's going to have the authority to go in and get Osama bin Laden and his
pals, wherever they are. He will get that authority, whether it takes a day
or a week, he'll get it. And once he gets it, now, that's what I want to
talk about here. Once he gets it, are you and others like you going to say,
oh, no, we shouldn't do this, even though we have proof of the man's --
masterminded the bombings in Africa and the Cole,testimony in Yemen, are you
going to still say, even after the authority is granted by Congress, which
it will be, no, don't do it, let Afghanistan handle him? Are you going to
still do that, professor?

BOYLE: Second, like his father, his father also got authorization from the
United States, the United Nations Security Council under chapter seven of
the United Nations charter...

O'REILLY: Oh, you want to go to U.N. now? You want the U.N. involved now.

BOYLE: Is exactly what his father did...

O'REILLY: So what?

BOYLE: And that's exactly right.

O'REILLY: His father made a huge mistake by not taking out Sadam Hussein
when he could of.

BOYLE: His father adhered to the required procedures under the United States
constitution and the United Nations charter that is a treaty and the supreme
law of our land. I expect the current President Bush to do exactly what his
father did before he starts engaging in a massive military campaign in Iraq
or against other countries...

O'REILLY: All right, I don't know whether he's going to go -- I know he's
not going to let the U.N. dictate. He might go for a consensus. He's already
got it with Putin and all of our NATO allies, he's already go that. Whether
he goes -- I think it would be a mistake to let -- empowering the U.N. in
this situation.

BOYLE: Then why did his father do this?

O'REILLY: I'm going -- we're going to wrap this up with this. I'm going to
give my last summation and then you can give yours, I'll give you the last
word on it.

This is a fugitive we're dealing with here. He has now been tied in by U.S.
intelligence agencies, according to Attorney General Ashcroft and the
secretary of state, tied into this horrendous bombing here in New York. The
United States must make a response to this, and I am agreeing with you in a
sense, it can't be a knee-jerk. It's got to be done in a methodical way.

Congress will go along, they may debate it or whatever, but they will go
along in either a War Powers, special War Powers Act or a declaration of war
against forces hostile to the United States. Then they will go in and they
will take him. This man you're looking at on the TV screen is a dead man. He
should be a dead man. You don't do what he did and be allowed to walk around
this earth.

Now, I'm distressed, professor, by your reliance, reliance on the strict
letter of propriety, when we've got 10,000 people laying in the street about
22 miles from me right now. I want deliberation. I want methodical
discipline, but I also want action. We know who this guy is. We know the
governments that are protecting him. We know the other rouge states that
have terrorist camps there. They all have to be dealt with, in my opinion.
I'll give you the last word.

BOYLE: Sure, I agree with you, Bill. He is a fugitive from justice and this
should be handled as a matter as other fugitives from justice of
international law enforcement. If indeed there is evidence that a foreign
state orchestrated and ordered an attack against the United States then
clearly that is an act of war that should be dealt with as such...

O'REILLY: What about harbouring?

BOYLE: Right now...

O'REILLY: Is harbouring an act of war?

BOYLE: In my opinion, no. And under the current circumstances, I don't see
it.

O'REILLY: All right, professor.

BOYLE: I think there is a distinction here.

O'REILLY: OK, all right, wrap it up, if you would.

BOYLE: I agree -- I agree that the -- if we go to war in a hasty manner
here, we could see thousands of U.S. military personnel being killed without
proper authorization by Congress or by the United Nations Security Council.

O'REILLY: OK.

BOYLE: Our founding fathers decided that the most awesome decision we would
ever make would be to go to war, and we have to be very careful in making
that decision.

O'REILLY: All right, professor, I appreciate it very much. Thank you for
your point of view.

BOYLE: Thank you, Bill.
###

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