- Capitalism and Alternatives -

Re: Hey Red Deathy and many others, I'm a little confused!!!

Posted by: Red Deathy ( RDP, UK ) on June 05, 1997 at 14:01:26:

In Reply to: Hey Red Deathy and many others, I'm a little confused!!! posted by GlennyRed on June 02, 1997 at 12:49:09:

: I don't understand this scorn for Trotskyists that seems to be floating around. Is the scorn aimed at Trotsky himself or at Trotskyists?

well, both.

I've read a bit of Trotsky and it's not significantly different from Lenin or Marx as far as I can see. I've also spoken to other
he's quite different from Marx, but yes, he is in teh same league as Lennin. My basic objection to both is their vanguardist approach- a minority coup d'etat, which will lead the workers to soocialism. My big beef with trotsky is the inherent mendacity and duplicity of his tactics, and the trouble it causes for the rest of the left. Yes his aims may be the same as Marx's, but his means are more than a little dubious. My personal feeling is that if he had become the head of the uSSR instead of Stalin bureaucratic dictatorship would be called Trotskiism, and the hero of the left would be STalin...

Trotskyists and haven't been able to discern any backwardsness in their arguments. I've talked to those not calling themselves Trotskyists and their arguments are equally valid for the most part. Most socialists I know have also read Trotsky and greatly respect and value his contributions. Understand I'm not including the Spartacists(I don't understand why they are called orthodox Trotskyists at all, they seem to have more in common with Mormons than anything.) Write back, Trotsky bashing just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.

1:Transitional demands: This is the idea that if we talk about the minimum wage et al, and get the workers to want it, when they don't get it (As we know they won't, at least not at the levels the torts ask for) then they will obviously turn to socialism. Now, not only is this a decietful tacvtic, and slightly patronising, but it also dosn't work as people have tendancy to go right when the left fails.
Further, many trots get stuck into the trap of believeing that the transitional demands are an end in themselves, and give up fighting for proper socialism.
2:Entriism. ANother dishonest ploy- join a grass roots party and try and influence it to adopting transitional demands. A fairly dubious tactic and prone to the problems above.
3:Party structure: The Trots often follow the leninist principle of democratic centralism- ie the central committe tells teh passive membership wht to do, nd any approximation of democracy is just that, and approximation...
4:Socialism in Russia: They all (trots and Lenininists) maintain that socailism occured in Russia at least for a time, which is not true...
5:Leadership- they want to lead the working class, as an exterior group, which I think in itself is inherently flawed....

Basically its a problem with their behaviour.....

Red Deathy


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