The California Collection/TheCaliforniaCollection.cdr/his072/jw_answr.txt

Text File | 1989-06-12 | 23.5 KB | 631 lines

Dear Reader

This is an answer I wrote to a Jehovah's Witness, after I pressed
him for some Scripture to back his claim that the Lord Jesus
Christ was NOT a member of the Trinity:


Msg #  1274 Dated 06-13-89 00:22:34  Security: 5
 From: SYSOP
   To: TOM ADAMS
   Re: (R)JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

Hi, Tom,

> > I'm still waiting for you to show from the Bible where the Lord
Jesus > > said that He was NOT co-equal with God the Father.  I have given
several > > passages where He said that He WAS co-equal with God the Father,
and > > will do so again at your request.
> >
> > Bob
>
> Bob,
>
>  John 18:17-18
>  Matt 26:39
> Mark 13:32
> Matt 20:20-23
> Matt 12:31-32
> John 14:28
> 1 Cor 11:3
> 1 Cor 15:27
> John 17:1-3
> 1 Cor 8:5-6
> 1 Pet 1:3
>
> Tom

Tom,

Thanks very much for your input on HIS BOARD, and for the
references you gave back in Message 1008.  I have read thoroughly
your comments and arguments, and have studied the Scriptures you
called my attention to.  I hope you will read this thoroughly and
carefully consider the answers to your arguments.

Let's take a closer look at those verses now, shall we?

-------------------------------------------------------

JOHN 18:17,18:
        Then saith the damsel that kept the door unto
        Peter, Art not thou also one of this man's
        disciples? He saith, I am not.
        And the servants and officers stood there, who
        had made a fire of coals, for it was cold; and
        they warmed themselves: and Peter stood with
        them, and warmed himself.

Tom, I fail to see the point here.  Where does John 18:17,18
state that the Lord Jesus was NOT God in the flesh?  Please
explain your point on this one more thoroughly.

Unless it's that you're saying that Jesus was merely a man,
because that's what the damsel said He was.  He was a man, Tom;
that's what the Bible teaches--fully man and fully God.

"For In him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily"
(Colossians 2:9).

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the
man Christ Jesus" (I Timothy 2:5).

------------------------------------------------------

MATTHEW 26:39:
        And he went a little further, and fell on his face,
        and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible,
        let this cup pass from me: nevertheless, not as I
        will, but as thou wilt.

Now what's the problem here, Tom?  The Lord Jesus, knowing full
well (as God) what is about to happen, that He, as God, is to
become the ultimate sacrifice for our sins, the Lamb slain from
the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8) -- prays to God the
Father that, if possible, the CUP OF GOD'S WRATH pass from Him.

The prayer is answered with a "No."  And, in fact, the Lord Jesus
immediately afterward accepts that and rejoices in it, for he
says in John 18:11, "The cup which my Father hath given me, shall
I not drink it?"  He as God knew perfectly what was about to
transpire, and He accepted it joyfully (Hebrews 12:2).

You see, Tom, you need to compare Scripture with Scripture.
That's the only way to understand it, man!  All you need is the
Book.  You don't need to stick your head up somebody's
concordance.

----------------------------------------------------------

I'll continue this in the next message.

Bob

Msg #  1275 Dated 06-13-89 00:35:22  Security: 5
 From: SYSOP
   To: TOM ADAMS
   Re: (R)JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

Hi, Tom,

Continuing on...

----------------------------------------------------------

MARK 13:32:

        But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no,
        not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son,
        but the Father.

Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man.  I wish you would
remember Philippians 2:6-8:

        Who, being in the form of God, thought it not
        robbery to be equal with God:
        But made himself of no reputation, and took upon
        him the form of a servant, and was made in the
        likeness of men;
        And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled
        himself, and became obedient unto death, even
        the death of the cross.

So, once again comparing Scripture with Scripture, we see that
the Lord Jesus Christ "humbled himself" and became man, and took
upon Himself all the limitations of man.  That means, as a man,
there were some things He didn't know. He asked, "Who touched
me?" (Luke 8:45) when the woman with the issue of blood touched
the hem of His garment and was healed.  He also apparently didn't
know the hour of His return--as a man.  But, of course, as God,
He was -- and is -- omniscient.  And, how do you know He DOESN'T
KNOW IT now?  I believe He knows everything now -- in glory in
heaven, seated at the right hand of God the Father.

And, Tom, even God the Father chooses not to know some things.
Look at Hebrews 10:17: God says, "And their sins and iniquities
will I remember no more."  How about that, Tom?  God can CHOOSE
not to remember something!  Aren't there things you wish you
could forget?  Well, God CAN -- at will.  Glory to God, He
CHOOSES to forget our sins and iniquities!  They are forever gone
out of His memory!

I believe that it is THIS divine attribute, Tom, that the Lord
Jesus makes use of during His ministry on the earth, and for that
reason He truly did not know "the day or the hour."  But, He does
now!

And finally, Tom, concerning this verse, bear in mind that the
parallel passage in Matthew 24:36 doesn't even mention that "the
Son" didn't know the day and hour.  That phrase is left out of
Matthew.  Therefore, taking the whole thing in its context, it
looks like the fact that the Son didn't know is NOT the JIST of
the message.  To take it out of its context and make it prove
that the Lord Jesus was not deity is bad hermeneutics, to say the
least.

----------------------------------------------------------

MATTHEW 20:20-23

        There came to him the mother of Zebedee's children
        with her sons, worshipping him {TOM, if He's WORSHIPPED,
        isn't He DEITY???}, and desiring a certain thing of
        him.
        And he said unto her, What wilt thou?  She saith unto
        him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on
        thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy king-
        dom.
        But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask.
Are
        ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to
        be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
They
        say unto him, We are able.
        And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup,
        and be baptized of the baptism that I am baptized with:
but
        to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to
        give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is
prepared
        of my Father.

Again, Tom, what's the point here?  That the places of honor on
the Lord's right hand and left are "prepared of my Father"?  Is
that it?  No real problem here.  It's just that what they're
asking for HAS ALREADY BEEN TAKEN CARE OF!  (See Matthew 17:3-6.)
They can't have it;  it's been given to two others.

----------------------------------------------------------

Msg #  1276 Dated 06-13-89 00:36:11  Security: 5
 From: SYSOP
   To: TOM ADAMS
   Re: (R)JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

Tom,

Continuing on....


----------------------------------------------------------

MATTHEW 12:31-32

        Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of
        sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto
        men: but the blasphemy against the Holy
        Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
        And whosoever speaketh a word against the
        Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but
        whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost,
        it shall not be forgiven him, neither in
        this world, neither in the world to come.

Time and time again, Tom, you take passages out of context.  This
here is a typical example of your perversion of the Bible.  In
fact, the passage seems more to prove that the Holy Ghost IS
INDEED the third Person of the Trinity, rather than prove, as you
would have it, that the Lord Jesus Christ is NOT the second
Person of the Trinity.

Let's look at the CONTEXT of the passage, shall we?  Jesus is
responding to the Pharisees, who had just said of Him, "This
fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of
the devils" (Matthew 12:24).  He then reasoned with them how it
is ridiculous to think He is empowered by "the lord of the
flies," Satan.  And then He explains how serious a sin it is to
SPEAK of such a thing.

Also, we're told, "And Jesus knew their thoughts" (Matthew
12:25).  Another demonstration of His deity, Tom!  How did you
overlook this?  As God the Son, He "knew it all!"  When is the
last time YOU read somebody else's mind, Tom?  Judging from your
perversion of the Scriptures, you have enough trouble reading
your OWN mind!

Now let's take a look at the parallel passage, found in Mark
3:22-30.  We're told exactly WHAT this horrible, unpardonable sin
IS in Mark 3:30: "Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit."
So, they are blaspheming against the Holy Ghost WITHIN HIM--and
THAT'S the sin for which they may have "never forgiveness" (Mark
3:29).

By your reasoning, you're separating the Lord Jesus Christ from
the Holy Ghost.  You're saying it's forgivable to blaspheme
against Jesus, but not against the Holy Ghost.  But in your
fanaticism to prove that Jesus is NOT deity, you are proving that
the Holy Ghost IS deity!  It is by HIS power--even as the
Pharisees admitted--that Jesus performed His supernatural signs
and wonders!

And here's something ELSE you missed.  Jesus adds THESE words in
Mark 3:29: "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost
hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal DAMNATION."
Not eternal ANNIHILATION, Tom...eternal DAMNATION.  Eternal
SUFFERING.  Eternal TORMENT.  Something that lasts ETERNALLY.

You don't BELIEVE that, do you, Tom?  "He that believeth not
shall be DAMNED" (Mark 16:16).

Looks like your own "proof" sort of backFIRED on you!!  (Pun
intended.)

We'll continue this exposition in the next message.

Bob

Msg #  1277 Dated 06-13-89 00:37:16  Security: 5
 From: SYSOP
   To: TOM ADAMS
   Re: (R)JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

Tom,

Continuing yet on ....


----------------------------------------------------------

JOHN 14:28

        Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go
        away, and come again unto you.  If ye
        loved me, ye would rejoice, because I
        said, I go unto the Father: for my Father
        is greater than I.

Tom, is THIS what you're referring to you when you keep saying,
"Jesus repeatedly said that Jehovah is MUCH GREATER than He"?  If
so, then, hallelujah!  Until now I had NO IDEA what you were
talking about!

And, once again, you show what a Bible-perverting clown you are
by lifting the phrase, "My Father is greater than I," out of its
context and making it say whatever YOU and all the other JW Bible
perverters want it to say.  As you can see, I quoted the WHOLE
verse, not just the phrase you MISQUOTED, for two reasons:

(1) To keep the passage within its context; and

(2) To show what a liar and a phony baloney you are.

Two things come to mind:

(1) You LIE about what it says.  It doesn't say the Father is
MUCH greater than the Lord Jesus.  You added the word "much"?
Don't you know what God says will happen to those who add to His
words (Revelation 22:18)?

(2) By taking it out of context, you make it sound as though
Jesus is saying the Father is BETTER than He, HIGHER than He, of
a GREATER essence or nature than He.  In fact, quite the OPPOSITE
is being taught.

Where IS God the Father, Tom?  In Heaven--right?  "Our Father
which art in HEAVEN, Hallowed be thy name" (Matthew 6:9).

Now, where was Jesus at the time He said this in John 14:28, Tom?
On EARTH--right?  So, what we have here is Jesus saying that the
Father--who is in HEAVEN--is greater than Jesus--who was on
EARTH.  And that the disciples should rejoice, because Jesus--who
was at the time on EARTH--was going to go to the FATHER--who was
in Heaven, where He was greater than Jesus.

If you'd quit wasting your time in lexicons and concordances, and
start studying your Bible, you might LEARN a thing or two!
Scripture interprets itself.  Just compare Scripture with
Scripture.

Do you remember when John's disciples came to Jesus and asked,
"Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?"
(Matthew 11:3).  After Jesus answered them and dismissed them, he
testified about John to His own disciples using these words:

"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there
hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding
he that is LEAST in the kingdom of heaven is GREATER than he"
(Matthew 11:11).

ANYTHING in Heaven is greater than ANYTHING on earth, Tom.  As
long as Jesus was on earth, then it was true that the Father was
POSITIONALLY greater than He, because the Father was in Heaven--
where EVERYTHING is greater--and Jesus was on earth--where
EVERYTHING is lesser.

But it's no longer true.  Jesus DID GO to the Father, where He
sits at the right hand of God the Father (Hebrews 10:12), where
He shares the eternal GLORY of the Father (John 17:5).  And the
disciples have PLENTY of cause to rejoice!  "He that is LEAST in
the kingdom of heaven is GREATER than he!"

This twisting of the Holy Bible shows what a POOR scholar you
are, Tom.  I've heard HOMOSEXUALS take verses out of context to
"prove" that God condones the awful sin of homosexuality.  You're
doing the same thing as the faggots, Tom!  Are you a queer, too?

(More next message.)

Bob

Msg #  1278 Dated 06-13-89 00:39:20  Security: 5
 From: SYSOP
   To: TOM ADAMS
   Re: (R)JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

Tom,

Continuing yet on ....


----------------------------------------------------------

I CORINTHIANS 11:3

        But I would have you know, that the head
        of every man is Christ; and the head of
        the woman is the man; and the head of
        Christ is God.

Oh, boy, Tom!  What a male chauvinist you are!  The feminists
would have a field day ripping you apart!

Do you mean that, because "the head of the woman is the man,"
that the man is BETTER than the woman, that the man is of a
HIGHER NATURE or ESSENCE than the woman, that the man is GREATER
than the woman?  Whew!

Either you're lying or the Bible is.  "And he answered and said
unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the
beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause
shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his
wife: and they twain shall be ONE FLESH?  Wherefore they are no
more twain, but ONE FLESH" (Matthew 19:4-6).

Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither
bond nor free, there is neither MALE NOR FEMALE: for ye are all
ONE in Christ Jesus."

In fact, I Corinthians 11:3 is a PERFECT picture of the Trinity
in action, and how it is ILLUSTRATED by the man-woman
relationship.  Man and woman are the same NATURE--humanity--just
as the Lord Jesus and God the Father are the same NATURE--deity.
A man has specific attributes and characteristics and functions
within that humanity.  God the Father has specific attributes and
characteristics and functions within His nature--deity.  The same
is true of the Lord Jesus Christ, and of the woman.  Man and
woman are NOT different natures.  They are ONE nature.  They ARE
different persons.  But the SAME nature.  Same is true of God the
Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Wanna try again?

----------------------------------------------------------

I CORINTHIANS 15:27

        For he hath put all things under his feet.
        But when he saith all things are put under
        him, it is manifest that he is excepted,
        which did put all things under him.

Tom, are you sure you don't mean to quote the FOLLOWING verse,
which would seem out of its context to be a better proof-text for
you than this one:

        And when all things shall be subdued unto
        him, then shall the Son also himself be
        subject unto him that put all things under
        him, that God may be all in all.

Same thing here as with I Corinthians 11:3, Tom--man and woman
are different, but they possess the same nature.  The man is
"head" of the woman.  He is of a different RANK from the woman.
In God's chain of command in the church, the man does the
preaching, the man does the shepherding, the man makes the major
decisions.  The woman LISTENS and learns with humility.  But they
are the same NATURE.  Same is true of God the Father and God the
Son;  God the Father is the "Head" of Christ; He is a different
RANK.  But they are no more different in nature than are the man
and woman.  And this difference in RANK--but not NATURE--is
illustrated in I Corinthians 15:27,28.

----------------------------------------------------------

More next message.

Bob

Msg #  1279 Dated 06-13-89 00:41:21  Security: 5
 From: SYSOP
   To: TOM ADAMS
   Re: (R)JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

Hi, Tom,

Continuing on...

----------------------------------------------------------

JOHN 17:1-3

        These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his
        eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour
        is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also
        may glorify thee;
        As thou hast given him power over all flesh,
        that he should give eternal life to as many
        as thou hast given him.
        And this is life eternal, that they might know
        thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom
        thou hast sent.

First of all, we're talking about three distinct members of the
Trinity, all members of one Godhead, but distinct Personages.  It
is not illogical to see God the Son praying to God the Father.

Secondly, a wonderful picture of the Trinity is right there in
verse 3, in the midst of the passage you are trying to use to
prove that no Trinity exists.  "The only true God"--the Father--
and Jesus--the Son--and Christ, which means, "the anointed One"
(the Holy Ghost)--all there together!  Just as they were at the
baptism of Jesus (Matthew 3:16,17).  Just as they were in Paul's
salutation to the Corinthians (II Corinthians 13:14; by the way,
the Lord Jesus Christ is mentioned FIRST in this passage, perhaps
to emphasize His co-equal status with God the Father).  Just as
they are in Heaven bearing record (I John 5:7).  Just as they are
all present as one in John's Revelation (Revelation 1:4,5).

ALL THREE are to be known by mankind.  But ONE GOD!  GET IT,
Tom...THREE...but ONE.

Three in One,
One in Three,
And the One in the middle died for me!

(More next message.)

Bob

Msg #  1280 Dated 06-13-89 00:42:38  Security: 5
 From: SYSOP
   To: TOM ADAMS
   Re: (R)JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

Tom,

Continuing yet on ....


----------------------------------------------------------

I CORINTHIANS 8:5-6

        For though there be that are called gods,
        whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be
        gods many, and lords many,)
        But to us there is but one God, the Father,
        of whom are all things, and we in him; and
        one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things,
        and we by him.

Again, the context talks about IDOLS, Tom.  You can't use this
passage to prove that the Lord Jesus is a "lesser" god.  Paul is
clearly showing that there is ONE TRUE GOD, and that all other
"gods" are phonies.  If the Lord Jesus were not included in that
"one true Godhead," then He would be a "phony," too.  Paul said
it in verse 4: "There is none other God but one."

So, your Jehovah's Witness teaching that Jesus is a lesser god
fails miserably here.  He CANNOT be a lesser God.  He HAS TO BE
INCLUDED as the ONE TRUE GOD!

In fact, isn't it interesting that the characteristics attributed
to the Father in verse 6 are nearly IDENTICAL in wording to the
characteristics attributed to the Lord Jesus Christ in the same
verse?  This is just ONE of many examples in the Scriptures of
the Trinity.  We've already gone over many others.

----------------------------------------------------------

I PETER 1:3

        Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord
        Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant
        mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively
        hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ
        from the dead.

Funny how you missed the verse before this, which is YET ANOTHER
wonderful picture of the Trinity in action: "Elect according to
the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of
the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus
Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied" (I Peter 1:2).

But I digress.  If I'm not mistaken, the Watchtower Society uses
I Peter 1:3 to further its teaching that God begets us once in
heaven and once on the earth.  But this ignores the teaching of
John 3:1-6, which states that everyone is born ONCE on the earth,
and BELIEVERS are "born again" spiritually when we accept the
Lord Jesus Christ.

So, "hath begotten us again" ties in perfectly with John 3:7, "Ye
must be born again."  This passage is FULL of references to the
Trinity!

----------------------------------------------------------

IN CONCLUSION

Tom, the Bible abounds with this wonderful teaching:

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the
Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Three in One,
One in Three,
and the One in the middle died for me!

What's more, Tom, you HAVE TO believe in the Trinity in order to
be saved.  You CANNOT reject the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.
You CANNOT reject His co-equal status with God the Father (whom
you call by His Old Testament name of Jehovah) and go to heaven.
"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for
if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (John
8:24).

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the
judgment" (Hebrews 9:27).

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast
into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:15).  "This is the second
death" (Revelation 20:14).  "And the smoke of their torment
ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor
night" (Revelation 14:11).

Oh, Tom, I pray you'll receive God's free gift of salvation and
forgiveness of sins and eternal life, paid in full by the blood
sacrifice of His Only Begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, on
Calvary.  His death, His burial, His resurrection.

God loves you, Tom.  Jesus Christ died for you!  And the Holy
Ghost wants to seal you unto the day of redemption!  Won't you
receive Him now?

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God
was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of
angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world,
received up into glory (I Timothy 3:16).

I don't claim to have all the answers, Tom, because it IS a
mystery.  But we're not told to UNDERSTAND it; we're told to
BELIEVE it.

I beg you to believe it now.  Believe in HIM now.  While there's
still time.

Three in One,
One in Three,
And the One in the middle died for me!

Bob