World of Ham Radio 1994 January/AMSOFT_1994.iso/packet/docs/pd199003.doc

Text File | 1993-12-31 | 310.8 KB | 7,057 lines

Thu Mar  1 15:00:16 1990
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Date:  1 Mar 90 14:03 -0800
From: Doug Collinge VE7GNU <djc@[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Message-Id: <25ed2783.samisen@[e-mail]>
Subject: PE1CHL KA9Q

>X-Mailer: Mush 6.5.6 (PC R6.3 22-Sep-89)

Does someone have PE1CHL KA9Q for the Atari ST available for FTP?

(First posting; would anyone who sees this please send me mail? I
 like mail and don't care if I get a flood...
)
73 Doug.

--
/\/\/\/\/\/
Doug Collinge,  samisen![e-mail]
VE7GNU          VE7GNU@VE7DIE V8R4G2 Victoria, BC, Canada

From packet-radio-relay  Thu Mar  1 15:31:18 1990
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Date: 17 Feb 90 10:10:30 GMT
From: netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!wells![e-mail]  (Ed Wells)
Organization: Wells Computer Systems Corp., Levittown, Pa. 19058
Subject: NO CODE LICENSES VS KEEPING CODE
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Dear Friends,
  I am new to a Ham radio license (KA3VRV), however, not new to ham,
commercial communications, etc..  I'm President of a small high tech computer
design and development company involving computer hardware and/or software
systems.  This includes many specialty areas such as robotics, data
communications, CAD/CAM, etc, etc, etc.....far from being a lazy person.
Wouldn't you say?

  As far as code goes, this has been my inhibitor to getting a license
up until now...but I finally got it.  I almost had it 20 years ago, but the
code didn't interest me then (nor did a code only license back then), and
doesn't thrill me now either.  I do understand the many good (an well
justified) reasons to have the Morse code (minimal radio needed for
transceive, gets through were others forms have more difficulty, etc.).
I'd like to have a General license now, however, the code's going to hold
me for a while.

  I think that what ought to be done now is that all ham's be forced to
have a minimum code speed of say 5 WPM, a rounded radio theory/history
background.  Then from there create a list of achievements that have
to be met to get to higher license classes.  Something like trying to
make a balanced meal for a day's eating, or getting a degree from college.

  This would allow the new Novice class license to have an overview of ALL
forms of communications at a minimal level (code, AM, FM, SSB, pulse,
RTTY, packet, etc.).  From there the higher class tickets would require
a "points" system, 30 points for a tech, 70 General...well you get the
idea.  The points could be generated by learning and testing for skills in
a wide variety of subjects related to amateur radio.

  Think of this, this allows every ham to become efficient at what they prefer
to do to their best advantage (and the ham communities) AFTER MASTERING
THE MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS FOR NOVICE CLASS.

  The new novice class would actually require a more rounded general radio
background for testing to get to be a ham, from that point on there would be
many specialties.  This would also keep the "10-4 good buddies" out
of ham radio, however, allow more "specialist" to join and enjoy ham
radio (as well as benefit the entire ham community).

  Think about this for a minute.  Wouldn't it be a boring world if all
"extra class" careers were just lawyers or doctors?  We wouldn't have
any chemist, biologist, metallurgist, engineers........or radio operators!

--
=========================================================================
Edward E. Wells Jr., President                      Voice: (215)-943-6061
Wells Computer Systems Corp., Box 343, Levittown, Pa. 19058
{dsinc,francis,hotps,houxl,lgnp1,mdi386,pebco}!wells!edw

From packet-radio-relay  Thu Mar  1 16:00:03 1990
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Date: 20 Feb 90 11:04:46 GMT
From: netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!wells![e-mail]  (Ed Wells)
Organization: Wells Computer Systems Corp., Levittown, Pa. 19058
Subject: PK232 Specs
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  Does someone have a "design spec" for the PK232 protocol and the
AX.25 protocols?  I am considering designing some of my own equipment
and integrating it into my own radio(s).

  If you have it, please email it directly to me.....wells![e-mail]

    Thanx

--
=========================================================================
Edward E. Wells Jr., President                      Voice: (215)-943-6061
Wells Computer Systems Corp., Box 343, Levittown, Pa. 19058
{dsinc,francis,hotps,houxl,lgnp1,mdi386,pebco}!wells!edw

From packet-radio-relay  Thu Mar  1 17:00:03 1990
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Date: 1 Mar 90 21:31:46 GMT
From: mcsun!inesc![e-mail]  (Paulo Dimas)
Organization: INESC - Inst. Eng. Sistemas e Computadores, LISBOA. PORTUGAL.
Subject: Decode/Encode Morse Cards
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I would like to know if there is any card for encoding/decoding
morse signals for the IBM PC compatibles.

Thanks for all the help you can supply!

-- Carlos Neves, I.S.T. - Portugal

From packet-radio-relay  Thu Mar  1 20:00:34 1990
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Date: 1 Mar 90 15:33:10 GMT
From: rti!xyzzy!aquila![e-mail]  (Mike Harris)
Organization: Data General Corp., Research Triangle Park, NC
Subject: HELP with WORLI needed
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I am attempting to run the WORLI software on a COMPAQ Deskpro 8086 with a
Kantronics KAM attached. I'm trying to use the com II configuration. It
doesn't appear to be talking to the com port. It runs a bit and then locks up.
It doesn't appear to be hardware as the port talks to everything else I have.
Any ideas? Perhaps my config file is still wrong?  The software is the latest
as I just pulled from his BB. Help!

Mike Harris - KM4UL                      [e-mail]
Data General Corporation                 {world}!mcnc!rti!dg-rtp!harrism
Research Triangle Park, NC

From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar  2 10:03:03 1990
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Date: 2 Mar 90 14:04:38 GMT
From: epicb![e-mail]  (David Cook)
Organization: Truevision Inc., Indianapolis, IN
Subject: Ham BBS's
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I am looking for the telephone numbers of PC BBS's which are Ham
oriented.  I am especially interested in software to decode
weather images and other types of RTTY/HV/CW signals.

Please e-mail me rather than post:       Thanks
                     David Cook
                     uunet!epicb!david

From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar  2 15:02:15 1990
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Date: 2 Mar 90 21:11:04 GMT
From: voder!thoreau![e-mail]  (Greg Dean)
Organization: National Semiconductor, S. Portland, Maine
Subject: ISDN for linking packet and repeaters
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In my area, there are a couple of linked voice repeater systems and
several packet networks.  The repeaters are linked on VHF and UHF
with conventional FM tx/rx.  The audio quality is OK if there is
only one hop between the originating and receiving repeaters, but
gets very poor if the repeaters are at opposite ends of the state.

On packet, the situation is not much better, now using 1200bps
dedicated uhf backbone and/or vhf frequencies which are shared with
the node users.  To communicate with another station a few nodes
away, it may take minutes for each packet to reach its destinition.

ISDN (Integrated Services Digital Network), is a new network protocol
which aims to handle both voice and data (including X.25).  Hardware
(and probably software) are or will be available to facilitate an
ISDN.  It seems to me that ISDN running over a few microwave links
would solve both of our linked repeater and packet problems.  This is
something the Amateur community should be on the leading edge of.

Does anyone know of any Amateur experiments planned or underway
involving ISDN?  Please reply to me - any replies, I'll summarize to
the net.


--
Greg Dean, K1ME
[phone]
[e-mail]

From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar  2 17:30:06 1990
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Date: 2 Mar 90 21:00:47 GMT
From: [e-mail]  (Murphy)
Organization: The MITRE Corp., Bedford, MA
Subject: club meeting ideas
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I asked for suggestions for topics/speakers for a ham club at work.
Here are the suggestions so far -  any others out there?

e-mail direct and I'll summarize

tnks  73   Alex   wd2t

*** from Phil Howard KA9WGN <[e-mail]>
1.  RFI: how to prevent it
2.  RFI: how to cure it
3.  SAFETY in the ham shack and on the tower
4.  Rare DX certificates
5.  What is EME all about
6.  Signal processing developments
7.  Soldering workshop
8.  Are you grounded
9.  MORE SAFETY in the ham shack and on the tower
10. The joy of fox hunting

*** from Steve Wilson KA6S
xait!think!ames!versatc!wyse!wyse.com!stevew

One program that we(the local Amateur Auxiliary) are putting on for
anyone that is interested is a combo program where we talk about
the Amateur Auxiliary(OO's) and also talk about DF techniques.
The DFing part seems to be a real popular topic.  The meetings
seem to run a bit long because there are usually so many questions.

Try contacting your local OO Co-ordinator(get his name from your
ARRL Section Manager) and maybe he can help you find a speaker.

From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar  2 20:32:30 1990
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Date: 3 Mar 90 00:00:14 GMT
From: kd4nc![e-mail]  (Gary Coffman)
Organization: none
Subject: Re: KA9Q "Mulport" HELP
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Terry Bell) writes:
>I am attempting to install the "mulport" command using the KA9Q tcp/ip
>software package. I would like to know what the proper procedure is for
>a user to digipeat thru me. My DIGILIST file is setup in the following
>manner.
>
>digi          interface
>k8zfr         507               ( FYI 507 is interface attached to 145.07 )
>wa8bxn        501               ( FYI 501 is interface attached to 145.01 )
CALLSIGNS IN DIGILIST MUST BE UPPERCASE!! Interface name must be in the
same case as on the attach line!!!!
>
>ax25 mycall is n8hsp-4. Would a user enter the following?
>
>connect w8xxx via k8zfr n8hsp-4 wa8bxn w8yyy
     on 507        507  507->501 501     501
This works.
>
>What I would like to accomplish is to have a user on 145.01 digi thru me
>and connect to a user on 145.05
You won't be able to do this because you don't have a 145.05 port listed.-)
The mulport code requires a digi on both sides of your switch for digilist
switching. So your user needs to use a digi call both before and after your
call to effect crossband switching. There is another list called EXLIST
that allows switching for SPECIFIC user calls when your digicall is the
last call in the digi string. This is of limited value for general users
because you would have to have an EXLIST entry for every user, however,
it's great for a special server like a bbs. Here in Atlanta we have our
lan bbs connected by a RS232 link to our switch. This allows the bbs to
do forwarding on the 56kb link attached to the switch instead of having
to have it's own 56kb modem OR forwarding to the switch via the lan
frequency. The lan user has to connect to the bbs via the switch, but,
because the serial link is running at 19.2kb, the digipeat delay is
not noticable and there are NO collistions on the RS232 cable. In fact
we are running full duplex on the bbs link. It's a big win for reducing
unnecessary traffic on the lan frequency.

NOTE: You should have an entry in DIGILIST that reads "lan ax0" or
"lan 507" whatever you call your lan port. This is a default case where
a packet entering on ANY port will be routed out the lan port if your
call is the last digicall in the digi string. If NO matches with DIGILIST
or EXLIST and your call is NOT the last call in the digi string, then
the packet will be repeated out the port it came in on. If your call is
the LAST call in the digi string and you have no lan entry, the packet
will be sent out the port it came in on.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>73, terry
73 Gary KE4ZV

From packet-radio-relay  Sat Mar  3 14:00:02 1990
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Date: 3 Mar 90 21:16:50 GMT
From: zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!pollux.usc.edu![e-mail]  (Kenneth J. Hendrickson)
Organization: EE-Systems, Univ. of So. Calif., Los Angeles
Subject: Re: ISDN for linking packet and repeaters
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Greg Dean) writes:
>ISDN (Integrated Services Digital Network), is a new network protocol
>which aims to handle both voice and data (including X.25).

ISDN is much too litle and far too late (IMHO).  I want a few 10Mb/sec
lines coming into my house.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recently I saw Dr. Robert W. Lucky here at USC.  Dr. Lucky writes the
Reflections column in IEEE Spectrum.  In his talk, Dr. Lucky mentioned
quite a few interesting things:

1.      More than 98% of your telephone bill reflects the cost of
    sending you the bill and keeping track of the accounts.
    Almost none of your bill goes to maintaining the equipment; the
    telephone companies are in the _service_ industry.

2.      Over the past few years, the bandwidth capability of the
    technology has risen at a phenominal rate, while demand for
    bandwidth has remained constant.

Some of Dr. Lucky's suggestions were:

1.      Give people HI-FI voice lines.

2.      Give people wide bandwidth data lines.

(Note that the cost for both of the above is near zero!  See above.)

3.      Allow the phone companies to provide cable-tv type
    entertainment.  (Dr. Lucky suggested that what he wanted was 40
    or 50 'channels' all playing the same movie continuously, but
    starting about 5 minutes apart.  You could start when you
    wanted, go to the kitchen or bathroom and then switch 'channels'
    to pick up where you left off.  This would be quite
    convenient.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

ISDN is a good idea, but it is very old technology.  We should have had
this years ago.  Let's take the idea of ISDN, (which is basically a good
idea), and update it to reflect current technology.  I want a few
10Mb/sec lines coming into my house.

Ken Hendrickson N8DGN        [e-mail]        ...!uunet!usc!pollux!kjh

From packet-radio-relay  Sat Mar  3 17:30:02 1990
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Date: 3 Mar 90 04:15:13 GMT
From: uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!helps!bongo![e-mail]  (julian macassey)
Organization: The Hole in the Wall  Hollywood CA U.S.A.
Subject: Re: PE1CHL KA9Q
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <25ed2783.samisen@[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <25ed2783.samisen@[e-mail]>, djc@[e-mail] (Doug Collinge VE7GNU) writes:
> >X-Mailer: Mush 6.5.6 (PC R6.3 22-Sep-89)
>
> Does someone have PE1CHL KA9Q for the Atari ST available for FTP?
>
    I don't have it available for ftp. You can get it from the
address below. I am talking to TAPR re their carrying the
software too. Plus of course some public spirited individual
could get the disks and upload to one of the popular ham sites
and let us all know.

    The latest PE1CHL release of KA9Q's NET is now available for the
Atari. It is available direct from PE1CHL, but those net fans in
the US can obtain it locally. Here is what you need to do:


Send:

1       Disk Mailer with your address and adequate postage
2       Double sided diskettes (or 3 single sided)
1       Note stating what you want

    Send the package off to:


Mike Curtis, WD6EHR
7921 Wilkinson Avenue
North Hollywood
California 91605-2210

Yours
--
Julian Macassey, n6are  [e-mail]  {ucla-an!denwa!bongo!julian
N6ARE@K6IYK (Packet Radio) n6are.ampr.org [44.16.0.81] voice [phone]

From packet-radio-relay  Sat Mar  3 18:30:03 1990
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Date: 3 Mar 90 23:16:24 GMT
From: att!icus![e-mail]  (Lenny Tropiano)
Organization: ICUS Software Systems, Islip, New York
Subject: HAM Radio/Packet radio Internet protocols with UNIX PC?
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Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

Please forgive me for being very naive on this subject, but it's something
that I've been interested in (while perusing rec.ham-radio.*) and I would
like to learn a little more about it.

I've recently compiled KA9Q (TCP/IP) package for UNIX on my 3B1/UNIX PC.
I've gotten it configured so I can run SLIP between my two 3B1's over
a serial connection.  Why you may ask would I want to do this with
my STARLAN connection, the answer that I just wanted to learn, and with
two local machines, it's easiest.  I'm still having problems getting
the "telnet" to work properly, I think it has to do with how I start
the "telunix" and the gettys on the pty's (if someone might have a clue,
I'd appreciate any pointers).

Well onto my questions, please E-MAIL me I will *summarize* this ...

How does one get into HAM-RADIO and interfacing it with computers so I
could conceivably connect up to the .AMPR.ORG domain and have a TCP/IP
connection for TELNET's and FTP's?

What hardware does one need?

The cost involved?

How do I go about getting an FCC license (what's involved education wise)?

Does one transmit modem tones (eg. Telebit Trailblazer PEP tones) over
a particular frequency?  How do you interface the modem to the ham-radio
equipment?

What range in miles does the transmitting and receiving get done?  How
big is the .AMPR.ORG network?  And what computer hardware/ham-radio
hardware do they generally use?

Thanks in advance for any insight.

-Lenny
--
| Lenny Tropiano           ICUS Software Systems        [e-mail] |
| {ames,pacbell,decuac,sbcs,hombre,rayssd}!icus!lenny   attmail!icus!lenny  |
+------ ICUS Software Systems --  PO Box 1;  Islip Terrace, NY  11752 ------+

From packet-radio-relay  Sun Mar  4 03:00:01 1990
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Date: 3 Mar 90 17:34:00 GMT
From: modcomp![e-mail]
Subject: KA9Q NOS Documentation
Message-Id: <97400003@modcomp>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]


I've located copies of KA9Q NOS program, but not the
documentation. There are many changes in this version that
the original documentation does not cover. (such as the format of the domain
file). I'd appreciate any suggestions on how to locate the NOS documentation.

73... Dan Grostick N4IXP

uunet!modcomp!dan  305-977-1558 weekdays

From packet-radio-relay  Sun Mar  4 04:25:26 1990
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Date: 2 Mar 90 16:23:08 GMT
From: zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!peora!tsdiag!ka2qhd![e-mail]  (Jim Dockery Kinnelon NJ)
Organization: KA2QHD Public Access Un*x,Ocean NJ
Subject: East Cost Hamfests / computer shows
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]



Recently, someone asked about east coast hamfests and the like.  Here is
a list that is updated quite frequently (at least weekly).  Also, the
Pinelands RBBS system is an excellent source for Amatuer and SWL related
files and discussions.  Tom Sundstrom, W2XQ, does one heck of a job
in supporting that system and has been doing so for quite some time
now.

Hope the following list helps a few people out there.

73,

Jim Dockery, WB2HBZ
ARRL Section Emergency Coordinator
Northern New Jersey Section

The opinions expressed above are mine.  They do not represent the
views of the American Radio Relay League, its directors or any
other elected official of the league.

------------------

=================[ AREA COMPUTER SHOW AND HAMFEST SCHEDULE ]=================

Do you know of any computer show or hamfest in the mid-Atlantic states (MA to
VA) not on this list?  Leave a message on the Pinelands RBBS for the SYSOP.
If you read this on a PBBS, send your information to W2XQ @ WB2MNF or:

     Thomas R.  Sundstrom                   MCI Mail:  244-6376
     PO Box 2275                          CompuServe:  via MCI Mail ID
     Vincentown, NJ 08088-2275              InterNet:  [e-mail]
    FAX:  [phone]                     Telex:  6502446376MCI UW

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Pinelands RBBS * 609-859-1910 * 24/12/3 8N1 * 64 MB on line
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

   Mar  3 - Saturday 8 to ? - Dover, NJ                      (tnx WS2Q)
        Splitrock ARA/West Morris Wireless Society Hamfest
        Dover Armory, Rt. 15 just off I-80.  Talk-in 146.985 MHz.
        More info:  WS2Q.

   Mar  4 - Sunday - Northampton, MA
   *        Mt. Tom ARA Amateur Radio & Electronic Fleamarket
        Smith Vocational High School.  More info:  Marvin Yale,
        413-562-1027.

   Mar  4 - Sunday 10 to 4 - Cherry Hill, NJ
        Cherry Hill Computer Fair & Sale (RB)
        Garden State Park, opposite Holiday Inn, Rt. 70

   Mar  4 - Sunday - York, PA
   *        York Ham & Computer Springfest
        Dover Firehall.  More info:  301-239-3878.

   Mar 10 - Saturday 10 to ? - Sandwich, MA
   *        Barnstable Radio Club Hamfest
        Oak Ridge Elementary School, Rt. 130.  Talk-in 147.045 MHz.
        More info:  Don Haaker, 508-778-5673 or Henry Fales,
        508-255-2818.

   Mar 10 - Saturday 9 to 2 - Absecon, NJ
   *        Shore Points ARC Hamfest
        Holy Spirit High School, Rt. 9 S of Rt. 30.  Talk-in
        146.985 and 146.52 MHz.

   Mar 11 - Sunday 9 to 5 - Secaucus, NJ                (tnx Bob Irons)
        Computer Fair (RB)
        Meadowlands Hilton Hotel, Meadowlands Pkwy nr Rt.3 & NJTP 16W

   Mar 24 - Saturday 10 to 3 - Parsippany, NJ           (tnx Bob Irons)
        Northern Jersey Computer Show & Sale (KG)
        Aspen Manor, Rte 46 W near I-80, I287, I-280

   Mar 24 - Saturday (no time given) - Upper Saddle River, NJ
   *        Chestnut Ridge Radio Club Hamfest
        Education Building, Saddle River Reformed Church, East Saddle
        River Road at Weiss Road.  More info: Jack Meagher, 201-768-8360.

   Mar 25 - Sunday 11 to 4 - Braintree, MA
   *        South Shore ARC Hamfest
        Viking Club, 410 Quincy Ave.  No talk-in frequency given.  More
        info:  Hal, 617-335-5777 evenings.

   Mar 25 - Sunday 8 to ? - Lawrenceville, NJ               (tnx KB2ZY)
        Delaware Valley Radio Assn Hamcomp '90
   (note    NJ National Guard Armory, Eggert's Crossing Road
   correc-  Talk-in 146.67 MHz.  More info:  SASE to Walter L.
   tions)   Sharpe, KB2ZY, RD #1 Box 259, 33 Bowne Station Road, Stockton,
        NJ 08559 or call 609-397-4432 evenings after 5 p.m.

   Mar 31/Apr 1 - Sat 8-5 - Sun 8-4 - Timonium, MD
   *        Baltimore ARC Hamfest
        Maryland State Fairgrounds.  Talk-in 146.67 MHz.  More info:
        1-800-HAM-FEST or 1-301-HAM-FEST.

   Mar 31 - Saturday 8 to 2 - Flemington, NJ                 (tnx NS2K)
        Cherrville Rptr Assn's Flemington Hamfest
        Hunterdon Central High School Field House, Rt 31 & 523.
        VE Exams 10 a.m.  Talk-in 147.375, 147.015 and 146.52 MHz.
        More info:  SASE to Marty Grozinski, NS2K, 6 Kirkbridge Road,
        Flemington, NJ 08822, or call 201-788-4080.

   Mar 31 - Saturday 10 to 3 - Fairfax, VA              (tnx Bob Irons)
        VA/DC Computer Show & Sale (KG)
        Patriot's Center of George Mason Univ, I-495 Exit #5, 6 mi W

   Apr  7 - Saturday 10 to 4 - Marlborough, MA          (tnx Bob Irons)
        Boston Computer Show & Sale (KG)
        Royal Plaza Trade Center, Exit #24-B I-495, N of MA Pike

   Apr  7 - Saturday 8 to ? - Lebanon, PA
   *        Appalachian Amateur Repeater Group Hamfest
        Lebanon Fairgrounds.  Talk-in 146.64 and 146.52 MHz.  More
        info:  Homer Luckenbill, 717-345-3780.

   Apr  8 - Sunday 9 to ? - Framingham, MA
   *        Framingham ARA Hamfest.
        Framingham Civic League Building, 214 Concord St. (Rt. 126).
        Talk-in 147.15 MHz.  More info:  Jon Weiner, 508-877-7166.

   Apr 14 - Saturday 10 to 3 - Valley Forge, PA         (tnx Bob Irons)
        Philadelphia Area Computer Show & Sale (KG)
        Valley Forge Conv Center next to Sheraton, PA TP Exit #24.

   Apr 29 - Sunday 10 to 3 - Hempstead, NY              (tnx Bob Irons)
        Long Island Computer Show & Sale (KG)
        Hofstra University, Hempstead Turnpike off Meadowbrook Pkwy

   May 12 - Saturday 10 to 3 - Wayne, NJ                (tnx Bob Irons)
        Northern Jersey Computer Show & Sale (KG)
        William Patterson State College Recreation Center

   May 19 - Saturday 10 to 3 - Edison, NJ               (tnx Bob Irons)
        Central NJ Computer Show & Sale (KG)
        Raritan Center Exhibition Hall, near NJTP, GSP, I-287

   May 20 - Sunday 8 to 2 - Paramus, NJ
        Bergen Amateur Radio Assn Hamfest
        Bergen Community College, Paramus Road nr NJ 4, NJ 17, & GSP.
        VE exams 7-10.  Talk-in 146.79 and 146.52 MHz.  More info:
        Jim Joyce, K2ZO, 286 Ridgewood Blvd., Westwood, NJ 07675 or
        call 201=664-6725 evenings before 10 p.m.

   Jun  2 - Saturday 10 to 3 - Willow Grove, PA         (tnx Bob Irons)
        Philadelphia Area Computer Show & Sale (KG)
        George Washington Conference Center, Exit #27 PA TP

   Jun 19-21 - Tuesday to Thursday - New York, NY
        PC EXPO, Javits Convention Center
        More info:  H.A. Bruno, Inc., 800-444-EXPO, fax [phone]

   Jul  7 - Saturday 10 to 3 - Parsippany, NJ           (tnx Bob Irons)
        Northern NJ Computer Show & Sale (KG)
        Aspen Manor, US 46 W near I-80, I-287, I-280

   Jul 21 - Saturday 10 to 3 - Willow Grove, PA         (tnx Bob Irons)
        Philadelphia Area Computer Show & Sale (KG)
        George Washington Conference Center, Exit #27 PA TP

   Aug  4 - Saturday 10 to 3 - Boxborough, MA           (tnx Bob Irons)
        Boston Area Computer Show & Sale (KG)
        Sheraton Hotel, Rte. 111 off Exit #28 I-495.

   Aug 18 - Saturday 10 to 3 - Hackensack, NJ           (tnx Bob Irons)
        North Jersey Computer Show & Sale (KG)
        FDU Rothman Athletic Center, off Rt 4 on Hackensack Ave.

   Sep 15 - Saturday 10 to 4 - Wayne, NJ                (tnx Bob Irons)
        Northern Jersey Computer Show & Sale (KG)
        William Patterson State College Recreation Center

   Sep 15-16 - Saturday & Sunday - Virginia Beach, VA
        1990 Association of North American Radio Clubs Convention
        For shortwave listeners and radio amateurs interested in
        SWLing.  More info to come.

   Sep 23 - Sunday 10 to 3 - Valley Forge, PA           (tnx Bob Irons)
        Philadelphia Area Computer Show & Sale (KG)
        Valley Forge Conv Center next to Sheraton, PA TP Exit #24.

   Oct  6 - Saturday 10 to 4 - Marlborough, MA          (tnx Bob Irons)
        Boston Computer Show & Sale (KG)
        Royal Plaza Trade Center, Exit #24-B I-495, N of MA Pike

   *      - Info via magazines.  For earlier publicity, sponsors are
        requested to notify me directly.

       SC - Scarbeck Computer Productions, 215-342-1491
       RB - Robert Barlow, 201-533-1991
       KG - Ken Gordon Productions, 201-297-2526, 800-631-0062
       RK - RK Productions, 408-978-7927, 800-722-7927
       SU - Shows Unlimited, 301-626-0311

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

This bulletin is updated when information is received.  If you do not wish to
wait for the packet radio edition or desire current information, the updated
bulletin may always be downloaded from the Pinelands RBBS.  The bulletin is
distributed on packet radio around the first of the month.

Have an addition or correction?  Don't depend on someone else to send the
information in.  The (*) in the left hand column means the information was
gleaned from a magazine.  For earlier publicity, provide the information
directly to me.  If you belong to an amateur radio club, please put us on
your mailing list for future hamfest flyers.  Clubs are invited to publish
this bulletin in their newsletters.  Other telephone or packet BBSs are
invited to post this bulletin on their systems.  If you edit this bulletin,
please include the opening and closing messages in this bulletin.  Thank
you.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From packet-radio-relay  Sun Mar  4 12:30:02 1990
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Date: 4 Mar 90 19:10:12 GMT
From: ka9q.bellcore.com![e-mail]  (Phil Karn)
Organization: Secular Humanists for No-Code
Subject: Re: KA9Q NOS Documentation
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <97400003@modcomp>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <97400003@modcomp> [e-mail] writes:
>I've located copies of KA9Q NOS program, but not the
>documentation.

This is because the updated NOS documentation does not yet exist. A month
ago I began the job of revising the reference guide to reflect the changes
with NOS, but a series of high-priority interupts has conspired to keep
me from spending much time on this. This is the first free weekend I've had
in three weeks...

Phil

From packet-radio-relay  Mon Mar  5 01:00:09 1990
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Date: 3 Mar 90 23:16:24 GMT
From: att!icus![e-mail]  (Lenny Tropiano)
Organization: ICUS Software Systems, Islip, New York
Subject: HAM Radio/Packet radio Internet protocols with UNIX PC?
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

Please forgive me for being very naive on this subject, but it's something
that I've been interested in (while perusing rec.ham-radio.*) and I would
like to learn a little more about it.

I've recently compiled KA9Q (TCP/IP) package for UNIX on my 3B1/UNIX PC.
I've gotten it configured so I can run SLIP between my two 3B1's over
a serial connection.  Why you may ask would I want to do this with
my STARLAN connection, the answer that I just wanted to learn, and with
two local machines, it's easiest.  I'm still having problems getting
the "telnet" to work properly, I think it has to do with how I start
the "telunix" and the gettys on the pty's (if someone might have a clue,
I'd appreciate any pointers).

Well onto my questions, please E-MAIL me I will *summarize* this ...

How does one get into HAM-RADIO and interfacing it with computers so I
could conceivably connect up to the .AMPR.ORG domain and have a TCP/IP
connection for TELNET's and FTP's?

What hardware does one need?

The cost involved?

How do I go about getting an FCC license (what's involved education wise)?

Does one transmit modem tones (eg. Telebit Trailblazer PEP tones) over
a particular frequency?  How do you interface the modem to the ham-radio
equipment?

What range in miles does the transmitting and receiving get done?  How
big is the .AMPR.ORG network?  And what computer hardware/ham-radio
hardware do they generally use?

Thanks in advance for any insight.

-Lenny
--
| Lenny Tropiano           ICUS Software Systems        [e-mail] |
| {ames,pacbell,decuac,sbcs,hombre,rayssd}!icus!lenny   attmail!icus!lenny  |
+------ ICUS Software Systems --  PO Box 1;  Islip Terrace, NY  11752 ------+

From packet-radio-relay  Mon Mar  5 13:39:44 1990
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Date: 5 Mar 90 19:03:50 GMT
From: ncelvax![e-mail]  (Geoff Dann)
Organization: Naval Civil Engineering Lab, Port Hueneme
Subject: 12 VDC power for IBM-PC
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]


Has anyone out there set up a IBM-PC clone to run on 12 VDC?
Our ass'n is setting up a packet node based on a PC-XT with the
DRSI boards and 4 radios.  A laptop computer is the obvious
answer, but the DRSI boards are designed for standard desktop.
The standard PC power supply puts out 4 voltages, according
to my book:  +/- 5 and +/- 12 vdc.  My guess is that maybe the
negative supplies aren't used in many applications.
Any recommended books or known vendors of supplies would be
appreciated.   Thanks....Geoff

[e-mail]
n3cfx@w8akf-1

From packet-radio-relay  Mon Mar  5 15:30:46 1990
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Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 90 12:43 CDT
From: "FEROZ GHOUSE, N9FJL/4S7FG" <[e-mail]>
Subject: TNC COMPARISONS
To: [e-mail]
X-Vms-To: IN%"[e-mail]"

I am considering purchasing a mult-mode controller for my shack. All I see
available in the market is the KAM, the PK232 and the MFJ1278. My problem
is I do not know what each of these does over the other, and their pros
and cons (I am still new to this stuff they call packet...)

I would appreciate it if folks out there could let me know their views,
experiences and recommendations that will aid me in gathering information
before purchase. Also I would like to know if there are any articles comparing
the three units. I do know ecah unit has it's own set of unique bells
and whistles. But, I do not know which unit will serve my needs, fit my
budget and give me the best value.

Please e-mail to [e-mail].

Thanks
Feroz N9FJL

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar  7 08:43:11 1990
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Date: 5 Mar 90 23:30:38 GMT
From: swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!prls!philabs!popeye![e-mail]  (Robert Casey)
Organization: Philips Laboratories, Briarcliff Manor, NY
Subject: optomizing a rig's audio section for packet (question)
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

I have a radio that I use almost exclusively for packet, a Motorola HT220
handie-talkie circuit board + a power amp.  Was wondering what simple mods to
the audio section I should design (i.e. maybe more high freq response?)

73 de WA2ISE

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar  7 09:01:51 1990
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Date: 6 Mar 90 11:54:19 GMT
From: mcsun!hp4nl!solist!maestro![e-mail]  (Andre v.d. Vlies)
Organization: AHA-TMF (Technical Institute), Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Subject: KA9Q for the Atari
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

Has anybody succeeded in getting the KA9Q packet working on the Atari. I have
gotten a binary from a local mail-server, but it justs bombs out on me.
I managed to get the sources from somewhere and with much pain I succeeded in
recompiling the lot (both on a Unix machine(BSD) and on the Atari). I wasn't
able to establish a comunnication. It seems to me that there's something wrong
with the 'aton' and 'inet_ntoa' routines, but I'm not sure (yet).
Any pointers are welcomed.

    Greetings,
--
            Andre v.d. Vlies
            Algemene Hogeschool Amsterdam, The Netherlands
            Technische en Maritieme Faculteit
            [e-mail] or ...{backbones}!htsa!andre
            Voice: ([phone]            Fax: [phone]

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar  7 09:13:35 1990
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Date: 5 Mar 90 19:18:52 GMT
From: mips!prls!philabs!briar.philips.com![e-mail]  (Robert Casey)
Organization: Philips Laboratories, Briarcliff Manor, NY
Subject: TR7930/7950 mod for packet
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]


  From: WA4IXN@WB9TYT
  To: ALL
  Subject: TR7930/7950 PACKET MODIFICATION

  CIRCUIT MODIFICATION FOR KENWOOD TR7930/7950 TRANSCEIVER
        FOR PACKET/RTTY OPERATION
              BY: WA4IXN

THIS MODIFICATION PROVIDES CONTROLABLE AUDIO OUTPUT TO PIN 5 OF THE MIC
CONNECTOR FOR SINGLE PLUG PACKET/ RTTY OPERATION.

REMOVE TOP COVER OF TRANSCEIVER AND CAREFULLY DISCONNECT SPEAKER LEAD
PLUG FROM "RX UNIT" BOARD.  LOCATE PLUGS"J-13" ON THE RIGHT FRONT OF
THE "RX UNIT" BOARD AND "J-18" ON THE LEFT REAR SIDE OF THE BOARD.
NOTICE WHICH WIRE GOES TO PIN "8-M" ON "J-13" AND TO PIN #5 ON THE MIC
CONNECTOR.  REMOVE PLUG "J-13" FROM THE BOARD AND LOCATE THE SPRING TAB
ON THE SIDE OF THE PLUG THAT HOLDS THE "8-M" CONNECTOR IN PLACE.  USING
A SMALL AWL OR POINTED TOOL, PRESS THE TAB DOWN AND CAREFULLY PULL THE
"8-M" CONNECTOR FROM THE PLUG.  WORK THE WIRE FROM THE HARNESS SO IT
WILL REACH BACK ALONG THE LEFT SIDE OF THE BOARD TO PLUG "J-18".  USING
THE AWL OR SMALL POINTED TOOL, CAREFULLY SPREAD THE "8-M" CONNECTOR A
SLIGHT AMOUNT SO IT CAN BE FITTED LIKE A SLEEVE OVER ANOTHER CONNECTOR
OF THE SAME SIZE.  LOCATE TERMINAL "AP" ON PLUG "J-18".  INSERT THE
SPREAD TERMINAL "8-M" INTO THE TOP OF PLUG "J-18" SO IT FITS AROUND THE
TOP OF TERMINAL "AP".THIS IS A FAIRLY TIGHT FIT, SO USE CARE NOT TO
BEND THE TERMINALS BY USING TOO MUCH PRESSURE.  ABOUT HALF OF TERMINAL
"8-M" WILL STICK UP ABOVE THE TOP OF TERMINAL "AP".  THE LOWER PART
WILL BE FIRMLY SLEEVED AROUND TERMINAL "AP" INSIDE THE PLUG.  DRESS THE
WIRE AROUND THE LEFT SIDE OF THE BOARD.  REPLACE SPEAKER PLUG AND
INSTALL TOP COVER.  PLUG TNC CABLE WITH PTT/AUDIO IN/AUDIO OUT/GROUND
CONNECTONS INTO MIC CONNECTOR AND IT'S READY TO GO ON PACKET/RTTY.  NO
SOLDERING IS REQUIRED AND UNIT CAN BE RETURNED TO ORIGINAL STATE AT ANY
TIME IF NECESSARY.

Note: I haven't tried this, proceed at your own risk! WA2ISE

cmd:
KD6TH-4>BBS:Mail_for: WA2SQQ N2FWL NW2L WB2ZHA WA2DHF N2IRZ WA2TQI KA2MRJ
N2WL KA2ZOO WA2KFS KB2DJJ K2TV SP9VV KA2VLP WA2EPI

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar  7 09:13:39 1990
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Date: 5 Mar 90 21:03:16 GMT
From: swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!prls!philabs!briar.philips.com![e-mail]  (Robert Casey)
Organization: Philips Laboratories, Briarcliff Manor, NY
Subject: TR7930 packet mod
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]


MSG#8 03/04/90  10:33:09 FROM KD6TH TO WA2ISE
SUBJECT:  - files\TR7930.MOD
R:900304/1447z 20584@KD6TH [Wyckoff, NJ - 07481] MetroNY/NJ ROSE:201744
F:145.07

  From: WA4IXN@WB9TYT
  To: ALL
  Subject: TR7930/7950 PACKET MODIFICATION

  CIRCUIT MODIFICATION FOR KENWOOD TR7930/7950 TRANSCEIVER
        FOR PACKET/RTTY OPERATION
              BY: WA4IXN

THIS MODIFICATION PROVIDES CONTROLABLE AUDIO OUTPUT TO PIN 5 OF THE MIC
CONNECTOR FOR SINGLE PLUG PACKET/ RTTY OPERATION.

REMOVE TOP COVER OF TRANSCEIVER AND CAREFULLY DISCONNECT SPEAKER LEAD
PLUG FROM "RX UNIT" BOARD.  LOCATE PLUGS"J-13" ON THE RIGHT FRONT OF
THE "RX UNIT" BOARD AND "J-18" ON THE LEFT REAR SIDE OF THE BOARD.
NOTICE WHICH WIRE GOES TO PIN "8-M" ON "J-13" AND TO PIN #5 ON THE MIC
CONNECTOR.  REMOVE PLUG "J-13" FROM THE BOARD AND LOCATE THE SPRING TAB
ON THE SIDE OF THE PLUG THAT HOLDS THE "8-M" CONNECTOR IN PLACE.  USING
A SMALL AWL OR POINTED TOOL, PRESS THE TAB DOWN AND CAREFULLY PULL THE
"8-M" CONNECTOR FROM THE PLUG.  WORK THE WIRE FROM THE HARNESS SO IT
WILL REACH BACK ALONG THE LEFT SIDE OF THE BOARD TO PLUG "J-18".  USING
THE AWL OR SMALL POINTED TOOL, CAREFULLY SPREAD THE "8-M" CONNECTOR A
SLIGHT AMOUNT SO IT CAN BE FITTED LIKE A SLEEVE OVER ANOTHER CONNECTOR
OF THE SAME SIZE.  LOCATE TERMINAL "AP" ON PLUG "J-18".  INSERT THE
SPREAD TERMINAL "8-M" INTO THE TOP OF PLUG "J-18" SO IT FITS AROUND THE
TOP OF TERMINAL "AP".THIS IS A FAIRLY TIGHT FIT, SO USE CARE NOT TO
BEND THE TERMINALS BY USING TOO MUCH PRESSURE.  ABOUT HALF OF TERMINAL
"8-M" WILL STICK UP ABOVE THE TOP OF TERMINAL "AP".  THE LOWER PART
WILL BE FIRMLY SLEEVED AROUND TERMINAL "AP" INSIDE THE PLUG.  DRESS THE
WIRE AROUND THE LEFT SIDE OF THE BOARD.  REPLACE SPEAKER PLUG AND
INSTALL TOP COVER.  PLUG TNC CABLE WITH PTT/AUDIO IN/AUDIO OUT/GROUND
CONNECTONS INTO MIC CONNECTOR AND IT'S READY TO GO ON PACKET/RTTY.  NO
SOLDERING IS REQUIRED AND UNIT CAN BE RETURNED TO ORIGINAL STATE AT ANY
TIME IF NECESSARY.

Note: I haven't tried this, proceed at your own risk! WA2ISE
cmd:

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar  7 09:21:13 1990
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Date: 6 Mar 90 22:21:32 GMT
From: uhccux![e-mail]  (Mike Gonsalves)
Organization: University of Hawaii
Subject: Re: HELP with WORLI needed
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>I am attempting to run the WORLI software on a COMPAQ Deskpro 8086 with a
>Kantronics KAM attached. I'm trying to use the com II configuration. It
>doesn't appear to be talking to the com port. It runs a bit and then locks up.
>It doesn't appear to be hardware as the port talks to everything else I have.
>Any ideas? Perhaps my config file is still wrong?  The software is the latest
>as I just pulled from his BB. Help!

You don't mention how you initialize your COM ports.  Here is the batch file
I use:

FBIOS 4,C,1,3F8 3,C,2,2F8
mbmode com1:24,N,8,1
mbmode com2:24,N,8,1
mbinit
mbg

I had to work on the config file a long time before I could get this to
run correctly.  I suggest you check that out first.  If you want to send
me a copy of the file via e-mail, I'll let you know what I think.

Good luck!

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar  7 09:18:03 1990
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Date: 6 Mar 90 19:10:25 GMT
From: shlump.nac.dec.com!carafe![e-mail]  (Fred R. Goldstein)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corp., Littleton MA USA
Subject: Re: ISDN for linking packet and repeaters
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Greg Dean) writes...
>ISDN (Integrated Services Digital Network), is a new network protocol
>which aims to handle both voice and data (including X.25).  Hardware
>(and probably software) are or will be available to facilitate an
>ISDN.  It seems to me that ISDN running over a few microwave links
>would solve both of our linked repeater and packet problems.  This is
>something the Amateur community should be on the leading edge of.

ISDN isn't a protocol.  It's a set of services and interfaces.  ISDN is
what the phone company supplies, implemented using digital (rather than
analog) signaling.  Most of its components are taken from existing
telephony; some are new -- mainly the call setup protocol and the
physical link (wireline drivers).  It has nothing to do with microwave
links or anything else like that; it's what you'll get soon when  you
call and ask for a phone.

How can hams use it?  The same way we use any other telephone wormhole.
But then it's not "ham radio" per se.  On the other hand, ISDN means
that the non-ham BBS/modem crowd will soon have 64 kbps dial-up (the
ISDN circuit rate).  And they don't even know morse!  ;-)  Somehow ham
radio won't look state of the art anymore.  (Hey, it _was_, years ago.)
      fred k1io
       (member, ANSI T1S1:  ISDN services, protcol, architecture)
---
Fred R. Goldstein   [e-mail]
         or [e-mail]
            voice:  [phone]

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar  7 09:25:20 1990
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Date: 7 Mar 90 16:43:20 GMT
From: [e-mail]  (Brian Kantor)
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Subject: Re: optomizing a rig's audio section for packet (question)
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Casey) writes:
>I have a radio that I use almost exclusively for packet, a Motorola HT220
>handie-talkie circuit board + a power amp.  Was wondering what simple mods to
>the audio section I should design (i.e. maybe more high freq response?)
>
>73 de WA2ISE

If you're using a TNC that has an XR2211 FSK demodulator chip in it (as
nearly all TNC-1 and TNC-2 clones do), you can GREATLY improve the receive
performance of your packet setup by adding in the "XR2211 DCD mod kit"
available from TAPR for around $11.00.  You can then steal the receive
audio from the top of the volume control and you should be decoding
signals that were formerly uncopiable.

See the article "Can We Continue to Ignore Level One" by Eric Gustafson
N7CL, in the 6th(?) ARRL Networking Conference Proceedings.
        - Brian

P.S. When you have a moment, you might want to register your site in the
UUCP routing maps so that replies can reach you, eh?

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar  7 10:00:23 1990
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Date: 6 Mar 90 19:19:22 GMT
From: shlump.nac.dec.com!carafe![e-mail]  (Fred R. Goldstein)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corp., Littleton MA USA
Subject: Re: ISDN for linking packet and repeaters
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Kenneth J. Hendrickson) writes...

>ISDN is much too litle and far too late (IMHO).  I want a few 10Mb/sec
>lines coming into my house.

See below about "Broadband ISDN".

>Recently I saw Dr. Robert W. Lucky here at USC.  Dr. Lucky writes the
>Reflections column in IEEE Spectrum.  In his talk, Dr. Lucky mentioned
>quite a few interesting things:

>1.     More than 98% of your telephone bill reflects the cost of
>       sending you the bill and keeping track of the accounts.
>       Almost none of your bill goes to maintaining the equipment; the
>       telephone companies are in the _service_ industry.

Either you misquote him or he's full of bat guano.  How do you think
they pay to maintain the equipment -- government handouts?  Prices and
true cost are out of line (less so than a decade ago) but telephone
companies have lots of real costs, particularly capital (recovered as
depreciation) and labor (guys pulling wires).

>2.     Over the past few years, the bandwidth capability of the
>       technology has risen at a phenominal rate, while demand for
>       bandwidth has remained constant.

Partially true; demand has risen, especially on the data side.  But not
as fast as supply.  This has of course reduced profit margins...

>Some of Dr. Lucky's suggestions were:

>1.     Give people HI-FI voice lines.

ISDN allows the 7 kHz ADPCM to be used over its 64 kbps circuits; that's
better than the usual 3.1 kHz.  B-ISDN allows true hi-fi; CD-quality
was demoed in France some years ago.

>2.     Give people wide bandwidth data lines.

>(Note that the cost for both of the above is near zero!  See above.)

B-ISDN will allow high bandwidth (as in 150 Mbps).  It ain't cheap,
though; they have to pull glass to your door.  That might not cost a lot
more than copper, but the _installed_ cost of copper averages something
like $1k/house, capitalized.

>3.     Allow the phone companies to provide cable-tv type
>       entertainment.  (Dr. Lucky suggested that what he wanted was 40
>       or 50 'channels' all playing the same movie continuously, but
>       starting about 5 minutes apart.  You could start when you
>       wanted, go to the kitchen or bathroom and then switch 'channels'
>       to pick up where you left off.  This would be quite
>       convenient.)

B-ISDN allows dial-up of a video channel (around 135 Mbps).  Not that
the CATV crowd is happy about that, but that's show biz!

>ISDN is a good idea, but it is very old technology.  We should have had
>this years ago.  Let's take the idea of ISDN, (which is basically a good
>idea), and update it to reflect current technology.  I want a few
>10Mb/sec lines coming into my house.

Narrowband ISDN is mainly old technology, ordinary digital telephony and
X.25 with some new glue.  Broadband ISDN is newer technology, using
all-glass transmission (well, mostly glass) and interface rates in the
150 and 600 Mbps range.  It's got a lot of other "novel" features, and
requires some more development before it'll be practical, but you can
expect early deployments within a few years.

N-ISDN is better than analog telephony.  Let's appreciate it for that.
Even 64 kbps beats a modem!
    fred k1io
---
Fred R. Goldstein   [e-mail]
         or [e-mail]
            voice:  [phone]

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar  7 12:31:55 1990
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Date: 6 Mar 90 19:53:49 GMT
From: cadnetix.COM!cadnetix![e-mail]  (Rusty Carruth)
Organization: Cadnetix Corp.,  Boulder, CO
Subject: Re: East Cost Hamfests / computer shows
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Dockery  Kinnelon NJ) writes:
>
>
>Recently, someone asked about east coast hamfests and the like. ...

No, WEST coast!!!  WEST!!!  Like, CA, NV, OR, WA state, CO, AZ,...     :-)

Seriously, anybody have a list of western hamfests?

73 from 'mr callsign project' :-) , rusty n7ikq

---Join the usenet un-net, 28.410 and/or 28.390(+-) 1700Z to 1900Z saturdays!
Rusty Carruth.                  Radio: N7IKQ                 ^^ or later :-)
DOMAIN: [e-mail]      UUCP:{uunet,boulder}!cadnetix!rusty
home: POB. 461, Lafayette CO 80026

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar  7 13:55:59 1990
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Date: 7 Mar 90 20:43:12 GMT
From: umich!sharkey!wyn386![e-mail]  (Daniel Wynalda)
Organization: Wynalda Litho Inc.  Rockford, MI
Subject: usenet/satellite/ham radio/?? integrated ??
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

Just out of curiousity:

Is there a chance that anyone has ever tried to get Usenet running via
satellite?  I have dreams of the news being distributed on some subcarrier
somewhere where I could grab it with a fast radiomodem (DSY 56K modem or
something else).  It seems that either Ham Radio could do it, or someone's
company could donation a channel of unused satellite space.

This is coming from a new ham -- just into packet.  I've been a long
time in Usenet/UUCP etc running UUCP on traiblasers etc.  Running
things over phone lines just seems like a roundabout way to get news
to people -- especially those that are spaced out?

As an alternative, is it possible that someone out there runs a Usenet
feed over the radio?  Like up in the Gigahertz range?   I realize that
in the middle of West Michigan I'm just not in the center of the Technology
world and I have to get things like TCP/IP, KA9Q, etc second hand.  Maybe
someday I'll be up to speed enough that I can help out with some of this
stuff....

Any input as to better alternative networking would be appreciated.
If incoming news came via satellite, I'd still have to send outgoing news
via Telco, but that wouldn't be near the burden on budgets (personal of
course).

Input (VIA MAIL) on the legalities of running Usenet groups unmonitored
over the radio would be useful as well.  I know I can't run commercial
stuff, but the internet forbids commercial messages etc as well.  Besides
there's NO WAY any human is going to read over/ok things at the
rates these new products are running.  -- Please DONT POST regarding these
legalities.  It eventually always ends up in a flame war between
the more verbose members of this group.

Thanks in advance for comments.




--
Daniel Wynalda       | Telephone: [phone] X22     Ham: N8KUD
Wynalda Litho Inc.   | [e-mail] [e-mail]
8221 Graphic Ind Pk. | I believe everyone should be responsible for their own
Rockford, MI  49341  | actions.  Thus I don't speak for this org. herein.

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar  7 17:39:14 1990
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Date: 7 Mar 90 01:28:05 GMT
From: cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!prls!philabs!briar.philips.com![e-mail]  (Robert Casey)
Organization: Philips Laboratories, Briarcliff Manor, NY
Subject: Re: tr7930/50 mods for packet use
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

sorry about the multiple postings of this article, appears that our system did
something wierd.  Like it sat on an article for days and I thought that the
article died, so I posted again.  was unneccessary.

73 de WA2ISE

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar  7 17:41:05 1990
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Date: 6 Mar 90 15:02:44 GMT
From: zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!prls!philabs!popeye![e-mail]  (Robert Casey)
Subject: tr7930/50 mods for packet use
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]


  From: WA4IXN@WB9TYT
  To: ALL
  Subject: TR7930/7950 PACKET MODIFICATION

  CIRCUIT MODIFICATION FOR KENWOOD TR7930/7950 TRANSCEIVER
        FOR PACKET/RTTY OPERATION
              BY: WA4IXN

THIS MODIFICATION PROVIDES CONTROLABLE AUDIO OUTPUT TO PIN 5 OF THE MIC
CONNECTOR FOR SINGLE PLUG PACKET/ RTTY OPERATION.

REMOVE TOP COVER OF TRANSCEIVER AND CAREFULLY DISCONNECT SPEAKER LEAD
PLUG FROM "RX UNIT" BOARD.  LOCATE PLUGS"J-13" ON THE RIGHT FRONT OF
THE "RX UNIT" BOARD AND "J-18" ON THE LEFT REAR SIDE OF THE BOARD.
NOTICE WHICH WIRE GOES TO PIN "8-M" ON "J-13" AND TO PIN #5 ON THE MIC
CONNECTOR.  REMOVE PLUG "J-13" FROM THE BOARD AND LOCATE THE SPRING TAB
ON THE SIDE OF THE PLUG THAT HOLDS THE "8-M" CONNECTOR IN PLACE.  USING
A SMALL AWL OR POINTED TOOL, PRESS THE TAB DOWN AND CAREFULLY PULL THE
"8-M" CONNECTOR FROM THE PLUG.  WORK THE WIRE FROM THE HARNESS SO IT
WILL REACH BACK ALONG THE LEFT SIDE OF THE BOARD TO PLUG "J-18".  USING
THE AWL OR SMALL POINTED TOOL, CAREFULLY SPREAD THE "8-M" CONNECTOR A
SLIGHT AMOUNT SO IT CAN BE FITTED LIKE A SLEEVE OVER ANOTHER CONNECTOR
OF THE SAME SIZE.  LOCATE TERMINAL "AP" ON PLUG "J-18".  INSERT THE
SPREAD TERMINAL "8-M" INTO THE TOP OF PLUG "J-18" SO IT FITS AROUND THE
TOP OF TERMINAL "AP".THIS IS A FAIRLY TIGHT FIT, SO USE CARE NOT TO
BEND THE TERMINALS BY USING TOO MUCH PRESSURE.  ABOUT HALF OF TERMINAL
"8-M" WILL STICK UP ABOVE THE TOP OF TERMINAL "AP".  THE LOWER PART
WILL BE FIRMLY SLEEVED AROUND TERMINAL "AP" INSIDE THE PLUG.  DRESS THE
WIRE AROUND THE LEFT SIDE OF THE BOARD.  REPLACE SPEAKER PLUG AND
INSTALL TOP COVER.  PLUG TNC CABLE WITH PTT/AUDIO IN/AUDIO OUT/GROUND
CONNECTONS INTO MIC CONNECTOR AND IT'S READY TO GO ON PACKET/RTTY.  NO
SOLDERING IS REQUIRED AND UNIT CAN BE RETURNED TO ORIGINAL STATE AT ANY
TIME IF NECESSARY.

Note: I haven't tried this, proceed at your own risk! WA2ISE
cmd:

KD6TH-4>BBS:Mail_for: WA2SQQ N2FWL NW2L WB2ZHA WA2DHF N2IRZ WA2TQI KA2MRJ N2WL
KA2ZOO WA2KFS KB2DJJ K2TV SP9VV KA2VLP WA2EPI

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar  7 18:39:15 1990
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Date: 7 Mar 90 19:44:36 GMT
From: elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sunybcs!uhura.cc.rochester.edu!rochester!rit!ultb![e-mail]  (C.E. Piggott)
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology, Information Systems
Subject: Clustering notions in IP
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]


Hi everyone -

    I am curious about how well IP address clustering is working
in the packet world ... I am working on a paper that addresses some
related issues (to be released when I feel it is ready), but either
way one looks at it, a good, effecient IP packet system depends so
very much on a good clustering system, and this seems to be like it
could be rather tricky to set up.  For instance, what happens for
those sites who are along borders of IP subnets?  When you have
built a backbone, say, western New York through to New England,
how does a packet entering the network know which way to go, and how
does it know where to get off?

    I have read all of the technical information, and the
papers from the Computer Networking conference proceedings, on
routing issues, but am interested in some practical results from
those areas of the country which already support IP.

                Chris N2JGW
--
Christopher E. Piggott, N2JGW                   [e-mail]
President                                       [e-mail] [44.69.0.1]
Rochester Institute of Technology               N2JGW @ WB2WXQ
Amateur Radio Club K2GXT                        [e-mail]

From packet-radio-relay  Thu Mar  8 02:04:40 1990
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Date: Thu, 8 Mar 90 18:00 U
From: [e-mail]
Subject: the internet mail list
To: [e-mail]
X-Vms-To: IN%"[e-mail]"

Hi,
   I am new to this list, and I would like to know the way that a bitnet
user to join the mail list of internet.  Anyone kind please tell me it.
   Thanks!


From packet-radio-relay  Thu Mar  8 03:54:40 1990
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Date: 7 Mar 90 19:52:47 GMT
From: uw-entropy!dataio!pilchuck!ssc![e-mail]  (Mark Zenier)
Organization: SSC, Inc., Seattle, WA
Subject: Re: 12 VDC power for IBM-PC
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Geoff Dann) writes:
>
> Has anyone out there set up a IBM-PC clone to run on 12 VDC?
> ...
> The standard PC power supply puts out 4 voltages, according
> to my book:  +/- 5 and +/- 12 vdc. ...
> Any recommended books or known vendors of supplies would be
> appreciated.   Thanks....Geoff

Get a copy of the EEM (Electronic Engineers Master) a multivolume
industry catalog published by (I think) Electronics Products magazine.
Look in the power supply section for manufacturers of DC-DC converters.

These are either modules or open frame switching power supplies with
DC input.  The usual input voltages are 12, 24 and 48 volt ranges.

[e-mail]

From packet-radio-relay  Thu Mar  8 07:32:22 1990
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Message-Id: <[e-mail] >
Subject: Re: usenet/satellite/ham radio/?? integrated ??
To: [e-mail]
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 90 14:50:23 MEZ
From: Joseph C. Pistritto <cgch![e-mail]>
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>; from "Daniel Wynalda" at Mar 7, 90 8:43 pm
Mailer: Elm [revision: 64.9]


Yes, this was done for a while.  Various newsgroups were distributed
using the CNN satellite feed.  (I think they were sent as data on one
of the 'vertical retrace' scan lines in the NTSC signal).  I remember
being able to see the data in the retrace interval while it was going
on.  I don't know what ever became of this.
                        -jcp-

======================================================================
Joseph C. Pistritto  HB9NBB N3CKF
            'Think of it as Evolution in Action' (J.Pournelle)
  Ciba Geigy AG, R1241.1.01, Postfach CH4002 Basel, Switzerland
  Internet: [e-mail]                       Phone: [phone]
  Bitnet:   [e-mail]   Fax:   [phone]
  Also:     cgch![e-mail]

From packet-radio-relay  Thu Mar  8 07:38:33 1990
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Date: Thu, 8 Mar 90 10:20:16 est
From: [e-mail] (Paul Tsuchiya)
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
To: jpl.nasa.gov!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sunybcs!uhura.cc.rochester.edu!rochester!rit!@elroy.UCSD.EDU,
    [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Clustering notions in IP


Since IP is a flat addressing space (at least at the network level) there
is not all that much experience in clustering.  The IS-IS routing protocol
in ISO has two level clustering, and mechanisms for dealing with cluster
partitions.  Certainly the NSFnet backbone represents a kind of clustering
in the Internet world, although the IP addresses don't reflet the
clustering arrangement.  In that case, a mixture of protocols are used
to provide the routing information that tells where to get on and where
to get off the backbone.  In the backbone itself, a scaled down version
of IS-IS is used.  In the networks hanging off the backbone, different
things are used.  In many cases, a default route to the backbone for
all unknown destinations is used.  In others, more complete routing
information is provided.

Also, have you read the Landmark Routing literature?  This is work of
mine that does clustering in such a way as to facilitate self-
configuring networks.  A published paper is in SIGCOMM 87, and I
have several other reports as well.  I have been thinking of trying
to adapt this work to packet radio, but haven't moved on that as of
yet.

PT

_________________________________________________________________
Paul F. Tsuchiya                Bellcore
[e-mail]   435 South St.
201-829-4484                    MRE 2P-251
201-267-9298 (FAX)              Morristown, NJ 07960
_________________________________________________________________

From packet-radio-relay  Thu Mar  8 08:57:24 1990
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unsubscribe

From packet-radio-relay  Thu Mar  8 13:55:03 1990
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Date: 08 Mar 90 15:52:44 CST
From: [e-mail]
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Subject: test message

From:    William J. Hobson
this was a test





From packet-radio-relay  Thu Mar  8 20:09:23 1990
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Date: 6 Mar 90 23:44:33 GMT
From: hpfcso!hpldola!hp-lsd!col![e-mail]  (Bdale Garbee)
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division
Subject: Re: Re: AEA DSP-232 rumor
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

>A well informed source has told me that Digitial Radio Systems are also
>working on a DSP version of their range of PC packet adaptors.

Andy was walking around at the TAPR annual meeting with a board that has an
8530, 56001, and 16 bit A/D and D/A.  Looked neat.  I didn't get much detail
on it, wasn't in the room when he talked about it.

Bdale

From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar  9 18:20:37 1990
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Date:         Fri, 09 Mar 90 19:22:32 EST
From: Joseph Skoler <[e-mail]>
Subject:      TAPR XR2211 Mod. Question
To: [e-mail]


   Does anyone know 1) if the TAPR XR2211 Mod. will work on an MFJ-1278
and 2) how to get in touch with TAPR?

   Also, is the Awesome I/O card available yet?  Is information about its
functions and availability available?

   Thanks and 73, Joseph Skoler,  SKOHC@CUNYVM,  [e-mail]

From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar  9 23:02:42 1990
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Date: 9 Mar 90 21:22:31 GMT
From: pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!mcdphx!citek.UUCP![e-mail]  (John Schuch)
Organization: Motorola Microcomputer Division, Tempe, Az.
Subject: Re: East Cost Hamfests / computer shows
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rusty Carruth) writes:
>No, WEST coast!!!  WEST!!!  Like, CA, NV, OR, WA state, CO, AZ,...     :-)

Scottsdale Amateur Radio Clubs "SPRING HAMFEST"
Saturday March 31, 06:00 to 17:00
2 spaces for $5.00
'close in' parking $2.00
overnight parking for self contained RVs available
talk in: 147.18, 146.525, 444.000
all the usual hamfest activities


NOTES:
I'm not involved, I just got the flyer.
Scottsdale is about 5 miles from Phoenix (yes, in Arizona)
I'll post the 'map' with directions if requested



John

From packet-radio-relay  Sat Mar 10 03:18:46 1990
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Date: 10 Mar 90 07:38:16 GMT
From: pasteur!agate!helios.ee.lbl.gov!hellgate.utah.edu!cs.utexas.edu!wuarchive!texbell!ark!lrark![e-mail]  (Rick Mobley)
Organization: LRTUG - Little Rock Tech User Group - Little Rock, Arkansas.
Subject: Re: optomizing a rig's audio section for packet (question)
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Casey) writes:

> I have a radio that I use almost exclusively for packet, a Motorola HT220
> handie-talkie circuit board + a power amp.  Was wondering what simple mods to
> the audio section I should design (i.e. maybe more high freq response?)
>
> 73 de WA2ISE

My suggestion is use what you have. Most TNC's have been designed to work
with almost any audio circuit. Some suggestions might be to remove low
order components since the detected audio is 1000 Hz shifted around a
center frequency of 1700 Hz, (1200 and 2200 Hz). The best reception will
be realized if you purchase one of those "state machine" mods from TAPR.
This circuit will remove the noise component from the signal and will
allow you to run an open squelch which will give you quicker signal
acquisition.

This advice only holds true for 1200 baud packet and does not take into
account distortion of the received audio.

Clean up your receiver and transmitter and reap the benefits.


--
Ricky L. Mobley, WB5FDP | Mail) ...!uunet!wugate!      |    CIS: 70505,1157
1800 Sanford Drive #4   | Path)     wuarchive!texbell! | PACKET: WB5FDP @ WD5B
Little Rock, AR 72207   |           ark!lrark!rick     |   XBBS: [phone]

From packet-radio-relay  Sat Mar 10 10:01:33 1990
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Date: 10 Mar 90 10:01 -0800
From: Doug Collinge VE7GNU <[e-mail]!samisen>
To: [e-mail]
Message-Id: <[e-mail]!samisen>
Subject: UHF

>X-Mailer: Mush 6.5.6 (PC R6.3 22-Sep-89)

A group of us are building a 9600 baud system to augment the 1200 baud
existing system in our area.  We are currently planning to use 440MHz
to avoid interference with other packet activity at 2m and 220 MHz.
We want this channel to work well so we have committed to *requiring*
fast-switching radios for operation on this channel; in other words,
no-one is going to wait around for your T/R relay to throw...

Do any of you have advice of any kind for us?  We particularly need
information on the types of commercial hardware that is available.
We are also capable of building if there are kits or schematics
around.   Are there any engineers from the TAPR PacketRadio project
on this list who would tell us what might be involved in a conversion
of that unit to UHF?

Thanks to all who can help...  ...and, what the heck, to everyone else,
too.  73 Doug and the Highspeed Group of VARPA.

--
/\/\/\/\/\/
Doug Collinge,  samisen![e-mail]
VE7GNU          VE7GNU@VE7DIE V8R4G2 Victoria, BC, Canada

From packet-radio-relay  Sat Mar 10 11:47:46 1990
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Date: 10 Mar 90 19:09:16 GMT
From: mcsun!sunic!tut!santra!puukko.hut.fi![e-mail]  (Karl Tigerstedt)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Subject: Macintosh Satellite tracker needed
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]


    I would very much appreciate anyone, who could send me some kind of a
satellite tracking program for the Macintosh. It doesn't have to include
graphics, as long as it works. Naturally, I'm looking for PD software.
The ability to understand Keps in NASA bulletin format would also be
very nice. Please send the file(s) with email in Binhex format to:
[e-mail]
Any microsat telemetry decoders for the Mac would also be appreciated.

      Karl Tigerstedt
      OH2MBM

From packet-radio-relay  Sun Mar 11 05:02:55 1990
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Date: 9 Mar 90 23:26:33 GMT
From: zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sunybcs!nsscb![e-mail]  (Andy Meyer)
Organization: AT&T NSSC  S. Plainfield, NJ
Subject: Re: tr7930/50 mods for packet use
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]


In article <84315@philabs> [e-mail] (Robert Casey) mumbles:
> sorry about the multiple postings of this article, appears that our system did
> something wierd.  Like it sat on an article for days and I thought that the
> article died, so I posted again.  was unneccessary.
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
...as are most of your postings!

[flame on]

Rec.ham-radio.packet is meant to DISCUSS packet radio, not REPLACE it!
I'm sure other system administrators are not thrilled by your continual
waste of bandwidth -- I'm not.

And since you seem enchanted with modifications, why not take the time
to: (1) at least edit the pbbs prompts off the article, (2) TEST the mod
so that you don't pass along bad information (in addition to quantity!),
then (3) see if you can find someplace more APPROPRIATE, like perhaps
the MODS DATABASE?!

[flame off]

    ==--
  -====---    Andreas Meyer, N2FYE      AT&T National Systems Support Center
  --==----    [e-mail]       ..!att!ulysses!nsscb!ameyer
    ----

From packet-radio-relay  Mon Mar 12 04:42:37 1990
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Date:           Mon, 12 MAR 90 11:57:45 GMT
From: [e-mail]
To: packet-radio <@NSFnet-Relay.AC.UK:[e-mail]>
Subject:        Enquiry about HDLC chip manufacturer
Message-Id:     <27602BAC_0019C138.009339186C801C80$[e-mail]>
Reply-To: Olivier Crepin-Leblond <[e-mail]>
Originally-To:  NSFNET%"[e-mail]"
Originally-From: ZDEE699      "Olivier Crepin-Leblond <[e-mail]>"
Mailer:         Janet_Mailshr V3.4 (23-May-1989)
Site:           King's College London  (U.K.)
Sender: "Olivier M.J. Crepin-Leblond" <[e-mail]>
Node:           VaxCluster (VMS5.1-1) - GROVE(1.10.local)->ELM(1.5.local)
Via:            Mailserver (V.1.1.6-7) -

Could anyone get me in Email contact with PHILIPS in the USA, please ?
I don't know their email address. They seem to be manufacturing some
kind of HDLC chip that might interest me. Thanks for your help.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| Olivier M.J. Crepin-Leblond, Comp. Sys. & Elec. Eng    | On this computer,   |
| Electrical & Electronic Eng, King's College London, UK | a flame-proof       |
| BITNET  : <zdee699%elm.cc.kcl.ac.uk@ukacrl>            |  shield, is an      |
| INTERNET: <[e-mail]>| expensive gadget... |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From packet-radio-relay  Mon Mar 12 10:46:44 1990
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    Mon, 12 Mar 90 10:46:58 -0800
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Date: Mon, 12 Mar 90 12:29:36 GMT
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Pat Davis)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]
Subject: SIO's and the TAPR-II


The TNC-II appears to take a Z80 SIO-0  or /0.  There are other SIO's in
that family, like the SIO-1 or /2, I believe.  As I recall, some of the
other SIO's have certain pins bonded internally, or have slightly different
characteristics.  The question: can I put a Z80B SIO-2 in a TNC-II and have
it work o.k., or must it be a "-0"??  I am trying to get the TNC ready for
higher speed use with a WA4DSY modem.  That should tide me over till the
K3MC AWSOME I/O card hits the market-place.

Replies: [e-mail] 128.104.198.22 AND to
this newsgroup...Tnx, Pat (KD9UU--Wisconsin//Upper Penn. AMPR address coord.)

From packet-radio-relay  Mon Mar 12 11:19:12 1990
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Date: 12 Mar 90 15:20:07 GMT
From: eagle![e-mail]  (Jim McKim)
Organization: NASA/Lewis Research Center, Cleveland
Subject: Re: tr7930/50 mods for packet use
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> /dev/null screeches:
>Rec.ham-radio.packet is meant to DISCUSS packet radio, not REPLACE it!
>I'm sure other system administrators are not thrilled by your continual
>waste of bandwidth -- I'm not.

Kill it, don't complain to the world - we don't care about your problems.
I don't get on the radio every day and appreciate seeing this info here,
even if it is available elsewhere.

--
----------------
Jim McKim  /  Internet: [e-mail]              be
Phone: [phone]  /  Packet: [e-mail]       seeing
----------------                                                you     - 6

From packet-radio-relay  Mon Mar 12 13:50:58 1990
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Date: 12 Mar 90 18:32:08 GMT
From: pacbell!tandem![e-mail]  (Kevin J. Rowett)
Organization: Tandem Computers, Inc.
Subject: Re: (now AIO)
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joseph Skoler) writes:
>
>   Also, is the Awesome I/O card available yet?  Is information about its

Close. By Dayton. For Sure (echo...).  As posted to another group, we've recently
had our motivation to get done by Dayton increased.

Price.  Reasonable.

>functions and availability available?

V40 uProcessor, 7.9 MHz
Two 85C30 SCCs
   One channel FD DMAed
   two chanels HD DMAed
   last channel INT driven only

768K DRAM/256K EPROM (looks like we'll be able to handle
              64K EEPROM too).


DS1286 Watchdog/calender/clock

PC bus access via shared memory window, 8K or 64K, user programmable,
   with starting address user programmable.

The design criteria is to support one FD T1 speed link, two roughly
LOCALtalk spped lines and one more line in the 19.2Kbps range.


We hope it will run stand-alone as well.

Full Programming spec available by the end of the month.


N6RCE

>
>   Thanks and 73, Joseph Skoler,  SKOHC@CUNYVM,  [e-mail]

From packet-radio-relay  Mon Mar 12 20:52:26 1990
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Date: 12 Mar 90 19:47:00 GMT
From: mailrus!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!torsqnt!tmsoft!masnet!canremote![e-mail]  (CLINTON EVANS)
Organization: Canada Remote Systems Limited, Mississauga, ON, Canada
Subject: Re: Bomb Proof Digital Mode
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

To: ALL
I have a low opinion of CW as a communications mode.  There is, however,
one argument I can't answer.  In poor channel conditions, with lots of
interference, two good CW operators can communicate when all other modes
fail.

Perhaps there is an argument for producing a truly bomb-proof digital
mode.  Don't go for speed.  Any speed faster than a good CW operator
is adequate.  Another trade off would be reliability rather than
the most efficient combination of bandwidth and data rate.  CW, after
all, is pretty grim in this respect.

On the software level, I wonder if a combination of forward error
correction and packetization might help.  I suspect, however, the key to
the problem is the means of encoding the data on RF.  The FSK systems
need very accurate tuning and frequency stability, a serious drawback
for a bomb-proof system.

Maybe, if the amateur community can develop such a mode at the right
price, we can then bury CW for ever.

Replies to [e-mail] or [e-mail]

Clinton
---
 ~ DeLuxe 1.11 #1716  VE3XYM @ VE3FJB

From packet-radio-relay  Tue Mar 13 01:49:10 1990
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Date: 13 Mar 90 09:47:39+0100
From: Joseph C. Pistritto <cgch!jcp>
Message-Id: <[e-mail] >
Subject: Re: Bomb Proof Digital Mode
To: [e-mail]
In-Reply-To: <<[e-mail]>; from "UCSD.EDU!packet-radio-request" at Mar 12, 90 7:47 pm>

>Mailer: Elm [revision: 64.9]

> I have a low opinion of CW as a communications mode.  There is, however,
> one argument I can't answer.  In poor channel conditions, with lots of
> interference, two good CW operators can communicate when all other modes
> fail.
>
Hey, try looking at what the Voyager spacecraft have done.  That beats
CW by a mile.  Or look at military systems, like spread spectrum, etc.

> Perhaps there is an argument for producing a truly bomb-proof digital
> mode.  Don't go for speed.  Any speed faster than a good CW operator
> is adequate.  Another trade off would be reliability rather than
> the most efficient combination of bandwidth and data rate.  CW, after
> all, is pretty grim in this respect.
>
The Galileo spacecraft has been switched into a mode of sending its
telemetry at 10 baud.  This is because the spacecraft is very close
to to the Sun (angle-wise, as seen from Earth that is).  QRM sources
don't come much bigger, (or more powerful).

> On the software level, I wonder if a combination of forward error
> correction and packetization might help.  I suspect, however, the key to
> the problem is the means of encoding the data on RF.  The FSK systems
> need very accurate tuning and frequency stability, a serious drawback
> for a bomb-proof system.

Possibly a drawback for an idiot proof system, but very accurate frequency
standards are readily available, and not inordinately expensive.  I bought
a McKay-Dymek shortwave receiver in 1977 that claimed something like 10Hz
per HOUR drift, less if you specified selected components.  It was $1500 at
the time, you can get them for $400 or so at Hamfests nowadays, maybe less.
Note that this receiver also had SSB, AM, etc. capability, so you could easily
design one for half the cost for a specific purpose...

>
> Maybe, if the amateur community can develop such a mode at the right
> price, we can then bury CW for ever.
>
Good idea.  Then let's get more people using non-neandrathal networking
protocols, like TCP/IP.  Or better yet, some of the 'Reliable' data
protocols being worked on for military command-and-control systems, which
use forward error correction, built into IP like packets.  Let's get everyone
to upgrade from 1200 baud, huh? for starters.  There are a lot of people working
their A**es off out there just to get stuff like 9600 baud, 56K, etc. working.
They could use some help...

The only strong argument for retaining CW these days is to restrain the
hordes from taking over our spectrum.  A sufficiently difficult technical
test could do that too.  And from what I've heard on 20 lately, some of
the yabos are making it in anyway...

> Replies to [e-mail] or [e-mail]
>
> Clinton
> ---
>  ~ DeLuxe 1.11 #1716  VE3XYM @ VE3FJB
>

======================================================================
Joseph C. Pistritto  HB9NBB N3CKF
            'Think of it as Evolution in Action' (J.Pournelle)
  Ciba Geigy AG, R1241.1.01, Postfach CH4002 Basel, Switzerland
  Internet: [e-mail]                       Phone: [phone]
  Bitnet:   [e-mail]   Fax:   [phone]
  Also:     cgch![e-mail]


From packet-radio-relay  Tue Mar 13 12:37:26 1990
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Date: 13 Mar 90 19:50:27 GMT
From: smcnet![e-mail]  (Lawrence Roney)
Organization: Santa Monica College, Santa Monica, CA 90405
Subject: Weather Fax. HELP!!!!!
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]


Our Earth Science Department purchased a Kenwood R-2000 HF receiver and an AldenElectronics 9321 Weather Chart Recorder for reception of radio fax weather
pictures.  Being the resident ham on the staff of the college they
assumed that I would know how to hook the gear up.  Unfortunately I have not
had much experience with HF yet.  I have set up a long wire antenna and can
hear some sort of data trasmission on the freqs. that came with the Alden docs.
Nonetheless we have never seen anything printed in the fax machine except
black lines.

The questions:

    -- Is there a better way to receive weather pictures with different
       gear?  Is there a TNC and PC setup that might work better than
       the paper based fax unit?

    -- What should the receiver bet set on?  (AM, USB, LSB, CW)

    -- Is a long wire good enough or do we need a beam or something?

Any assistance or help would be greatly appreciated.  Earth Science won't
let me walk down their hall until I get this thing working.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lawrence Roney - Santa Monica College Telecommunications Department
KC6HQR           1900 Pico Blvd., Santa Monica, CA 90405-1628
Mail:            uunet!ucla-cs!smcnet!lawrence  or  ...!csun!smcnet!lawrence

From packet-radio-relay  Tue Mar 13 13:03:46 1990
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Date: 13 Mar 90 19:15:12 GMT
From: mcsun!sunic!tut!kannel![e-mail]  (Juha Nurmela)
Organization: Lappeenranta University of Technology, Finland
Subject: Re: Bomb Proof Digital Mode
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

bury CW ? NEVER !

juha nurmela, oh5nxo
--
~
~        Signal Corps do it with their bare hands.
~

From packet-radio-relay  Tue Mar 13 15:07:45 1990
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Date: 13 Mar 90 21:39:28 GMT
From: smcnet![e-mail]  (Lawrence Roney)
Organization: Santa Monica College, Santa Monica, CA 90405
Subject: Weather Fax. HELP!!!!
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]


Our Earth Science Department purchased a Kenwood R-2000 HF receiver and an AldenElectronics 9321 Weather Chart Recorder for reception of radio fax weather
pictures.  Being the resident hams on the staff of the college they
assumed that I would know how to hook the gear up.  Unfortunately I have not
had much experience with HF yet.  I have set up a long wire antenna and can
hear some sort of data trasmission on the freqs. that came with the Alden docs.
Nonetheless we have never seen anything printed in the fax machine except
black lines.

The questions:

    -- Is there a better way to receive weather pictures with different
       gear?  Is there a TNC and PC setup that might work better than
       the paper based fax unit?

    -- What should the receiver bet set on?  (AM, USB, LSB, CW)

    -- Is a long wire good enough or do we need a beam or something?

Any assistance or help would be greatly appreciated.  Earth Science won't
let me walk down their hall until I get this thing working.



--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lawrence Roney - Santa Monica College Telecommunications Department
KC6HQR           1900 Pico Blvd., Santa Monica, CA 90405-1628
Mail:            uunet!ucla-cs!smcnet!lawrence  or  ...!csun!smcnet!lawrence

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 14 03:03:57 1990
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Date: 13 Mar 90 21:14:42 GMT
From: cs.utexas.edu!mailrus!umich!monitor!mousetrap![e-mail]  (William S. Johnston)
Organization: Mousetrap
Subject: Help with w2xo BBS/tcp-ip
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

I am having trouble getting information about the w2xo bbs software
for Net (tcp-ip) under unix.  The standard distribution does not in-
clude the config.xo file.  There is no mention on how to set it up
either.  If you have information or know where I can get it I would
appreciate it..

Thanks,  Bill

--
[e-mail] *          | (snail mail:)
[e-mail] (radio) *        | Bill Johnston
B.JOHNSTON (GEnie)                     | 7458 Kingsbridge
               *=recommend | Canton, MI 48187-2412

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 14 07:34:02 1990
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Date: 14 Mar 90 14:25:18 GMT
From: samsung!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!stjhmc!f1.n234.z1.fidonet.org![e-mail],
    [e-mail]  (Jim Grubs, W8GRT)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:234/1 - <QRV de W8GRT, Sylvania OH
Subject: Re: Bomb Proof Digital Mode
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]


 > From: [e-mail] (CLINTON EVANS)

 > To: ALL
 > I have a low opinion of CW as a communications mode.  There is, however,
 > one argument I can't answer.  In poor channel conditions, with lots of
 > interference, two good CW operators can communicate when all other modes
 > fail.
 >
 > Perhaps there is an argument for producing a truly bomb-proof digital
 > mode.  Don't go for speed.  Any speed faster than a good CW operator
 >
 > Maybe, if the amateur community can develop such a mode at the right
 > price, we can then bury CW for ever.

There is such a system. it's called "Peace". Let the nuclear survivalists build
their own hardened bunkers and worse case scenarios, the REAL world needs REAL
data communications for REAL problems like hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes,
and such.


--
Uucp: ...{gatech,ames,rutgers}!ncar!asuvax!stjhmc!234!1!Jim.Grubs,.W8GRT
Internet: Jim.Grubs,[e-mail]

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 14 09:34:58 1990
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Date: 14 Mar 90 14:57:23 GMT
From: eru!luth!sunic!mcsun!hp4nl!solist!maestro![e-mail]  (Andre v.d. Vlies)
Organization: AHA-TMF (Technical Institute), Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Subject: KA9Q, who has the latest release.
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

Is there somebody out there who can tell me where , and how, to get the latest
version of the KA9Q package ? Mind, that I'm talking about sources !

I have also some questions:
    - Is this the right newsgroup ? I hardly see any messages concering
      KA9Q.
    - What is KISS ?
    - What is NETROM ?
    I have the feeling that I shouldn't include such code if I can't link
    up to such devices (??)
    - What is Nos ?

--
            Andre v.d. Vlies
            Algemene Hogeschool Amsterdam, The Netherlands
            Technische en Maritieme Faculteit
            [e-mail] or ...{backbones}!htsa!andre
            Voice: ([phone]            Fax: [phone]

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 14 11:19:10 1990
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Date: 14 Mar 90 17:17:02 GMT
From: ubc-cs!alberta!atha![e-mail]  (Richard Loken)
Organization: Athabasca University
Subject: Re: Bomb Proof Digital Mode
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (Juha Nurmela):
> bury CW ? NEVER !
>
> juha nurmela, oh5nxo

I concur but less politely.  I think its unlikely that the CW ops do the yelling
about requiring a code test on the exam.  CW ops know its obselete, they run
CW because its fun.

I am opposed to a code test (sorry Lyndon) but the only mode I enjoy is CW -
it requires skill, all the other modes require only money.  I am interested
in packet but once the hardware is functional and the bugs are worked out of the
protocols etc - which I hope takes a long time - it will be as boring as a 2M
repeater.

That is real b - o - r - i - n - g.

     *********      73
    **********      Richard Loken VE6BSV
   .      ****
  ..      ****      Athabasca University
 ....     ****      Athabasca, Alberta Canada
..........****      [e-mail]       {alberta|decwrl}!atha!tech

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 14 11:31:48 1990
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Date: Wed, 14 Mar 90 13:09:49 CST
From: "Charlie Turner" <[e-mail]>
To: "Packet Radio Conference" <[e-mail]>
Subject: TCP/IP Software for Amiga PCs

Could someone tell me the name or names of any TCP/IP packages that run on
an Amiga PC? I'd also appreciate any information you might have about
locating these files on an anonmyous FTP somewhere. Thanks.

-WA0R

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 14 19:20:15 1990
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Date: 13 Mar 90 23:09:33 GMT
From: hpfcso!hpldola!hp-lsd!col![e-mail]  (Bdale Garbee)
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division
Subject: Re: Clustering notions in IP
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
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>I am curious about how well IP address clustering is working
>in the packet world ... I am working on a paper that addresses some
>related issues (to be released when I feel it is ready), but either
>way one looks at it, a good, effecient IP packet system depends so
>very much on a good clustering system, and this seems to be like it
>could be rather tricky to set up.

IP doesn't depend at all on clustering.  IP is a flat address space.  Use of
clustering is purely an "efficiency hack", though it has proven to be a very
useful one.

Most amateur radio TCP/IP routing is done by assigning addresses so that they
cluster within areas of RF connectivity (*not* geography), and setting up
static routing hints for reaching nearby clusters.  This has worked fairly well
until the recent snowballing of interest in IP on packet...

However, it has generated another one of those nasty user confusions that take
bloody near forever to erase... that it is somehow "right" and "ordained" that
routing should be designed around and based on the notion that addresses are
clustered.  That is just *wrong*.  Any reasonable routing implmentation would
be wise to group routing information that is received such that it can take
advantage of natural clustering to minimize the size of the route table, etc.,
but again... that's "just an efficiency hack", and should not be a fundamental
assumption.

>For instance, what happens for
>those sites who are along borders of IP subnets?  When you have
>built a backbone, say, western New York through to New England,
>how does a packet entering the network know which way to go, and how
>does it know where to get off?

Currently, manual intervention to generate static routing hints.

Bdale

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 14 19:19:08 1990
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Date: 13 Mar 90 23:13:27 GMT
From: hpfcso!hpldola!hp-lsd!col![e-mail]  (Bdale Garbee)
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division
Subject: Re: TAPR XR2211 Mod. Question
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
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>Does anyone know 1) if the TAPR XR2211 Mod. will work on an MFJ-1278
>and 2) how to get in touch with TAPR?

If the 1278 uses a 2211, then yes.  I don't know offhand if it does.  Call the
TAPR office and ask.

    TAPR
    PO Box 12925
    Tucson, AZ  85732
    [phone]

>Also, is the Awesome I/O card available yet?  Is information about its
>functions and availability available?

No, it's not quite available.  Contact DRSI and ask them for a copy of their
flyer on it...

Bdale

From packet-radio-relay  Thu Mar 15 07:05:55 1990
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Date: Thu, 15 Mar 90 10:06:35 est
From: [e-mail] (Paul Tsuchiya)
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
To: hpfcso!hpldola!hp-lsd!col![e-mail], [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Clustering notions in IP

>
> Most amateur radio TCP/IP routing is done by assigning addresses so that they
> cluster within areas of RF connectivity (*not* geography), and setting up
> static routing hints for reaching nearby clusters.  This has worked fairly well
> until the recent snowballing of interest in IP on packet...
>
> However, it has generated another one of those nasty user confusions that take
> bloody near forever to erase... that it is somehow "right" and "ordained" that
> routing should be designed around and based on the notion that addresses are
> clustered.  That is just *wrong*.  Any reasonable routing implmentation would
> be wise to group routing information that is received such that it can take
> advantage of natural clustering to minimize the size of the route table, etc.,
> but again... that's "just an efficiency hack", and should not be a fundamental
> assumption.
>

There is no question that the assignment of addresses to allow grouping
of a set of nodes (i.e., clustering) is a necessary WHEN THE AMOUNT
OF ROUTING INFORMATION EXCEEDS CAPACITY TO CARRY/STORE IT ALL.
There is also no question that clustering adds algorithmic
complexity to the routing algorithm because of things like
partitions, address filtering, and so on.

If one needs to cluster, and if there is natural clustering
(i.e., RF connectivity) then the address clustering should follow
the natural clustering.  I think it is especialy useful to do
clustering when a network is formed around one or more backbones.
I don't know if the packet radio net is this way or not.

The above comment seems to me to be saying "design the network as
flat, and cluster when appropriate and easy", and is railing against
the opposite attitude, which says "design the network as clustered".
The problem of designing for flat is that it can be real hard to
cluster later on.  For instance, the Internet right now is up against
a real scaling wall because of their flat address space.  If they
had designed for clustering from the start, for instance by
expressing all addresses in the routing algorithms as address/mask
pairs, evolution towards hierarchy would be much easier.  Perhaps
the best attitude is "design for flat operation but easy evolution
towards clustering".

PT


_________________________________________________________________
Paul F. Tsuchiya                Bellcore
[e-mail]   435 South St.
201-829-4484                    MRE 2P-251
201-267-9298 (FAX)              Morristown, NJ 07960
_________________________________________________________________

From packet-radio-relay  Thu Mar 15 07:46:02 1990
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Date: Thu, 15 Mar 90 10:23 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Information needed
To: [e-mail]
X-Vms-To: IN%"[e-mail]"

Two things needed here - one on topic, one not!

I'm interested in getting going with packet, but have no idea what I might
need.  I own an AT compatible PC, and an old tube-type SWAN HF transceiver.
Can anyone recommend any good reading material or other paths to follow to
help me figure out what else I need to get or do in order to get a packet
station on air?

Although this may be the wrong forum to request this, I'll try it anyway.
Is there an info-list available via BITNET that covers the rest of the ham
radio spectrum?

Thanx for your help...

==========================================================================
Dave Goodwin                                  |
Coordinator, PC Support/User Services         | To err is human.
VAX System Manager                            | To really foul things up,
----------------------------------------------| You need a computer.
BitNet/CREN : Goodwin@Smcvax                  |
Ma Bell     : [phone] X2220             |
Pony Express: Saint Michael's College         |
          Department of Computer Services |
          Winooski Park                   |
          Colchester, VT 05439            |
==========================================================================


From packet-radio-relay  Thu Mar 15 10:49:30 1990
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Date: 15 Mar 90 16:05:49 GMT
From: hpl-opus!hpnmdla![e-mail]  (Glenn Elmore)
Organization: HP Network Measurements Div, Santa Rosa, CA
Subject: Re: KA9Q for the Atari
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
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Andre
  I've been running ka9q on an Atari ST for about two years now.
Rob PE1CHL has done a great deal of work porting various versions
of the code and adding some very nice features.
  Sources are available here in the US (as well as object) but
you would probably do better contacting Rob.

73

Glenn Elmore -N6GN-

N6GN @ K3MC
[e-mail]
[e-mail]

From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar 16 06:12:16 1990
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Date: Fri, 16 Mar 90 08:44:32 EST
From: [e-mail] (Barry McLarnon DGBT/DIP)
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: TAPR XR2211 Mod. Question
Cc: [e-mail]

>>Does anyone know 1) if the TAPR XR2211 Mod. will work on an MFJ-1278
>>and 2) how to get in touch with TAPR?
>
>If the 1278 uses a 2211, then yes.  I don't know offhand if it does.  Call the
>TAPR office and ask.

The 1278 uses a 2211, but it will not benefit from the TAPR DCD mod.  The
1278 already has the improved DCD circuitry built-in... to my knowledge, it's
the only currently available TNC which does so.  The DCD mods were published
by N7CL at least a year and a half ago.  The fact that so few TNC vendors
have not seen fit to upgrade their products in that time is, in my opinion,
a disgrace.  Pardon the digression, but I had to get that off my chest. :-)

Barry VE3JF

---
Barry McLarnon      Communications Research Center     Ottawa, ON     Canada
Internet: [e-mail]       UUCP: ...utzoo!dciem!nrcaer!dgbt!barry
CI$: 71470,3651   PBBS: VE3JF@VE3JF   AMPRnet: [e-mail]3jf [44.135.96.6]

From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar 16 12:14:46 1990
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From: Doug Collinge VE7GNU <djc@[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Reply-To: samisen![e-mail]
Message-Id: <2600d4c5.samisen@[e-mail]>
Subject: NB9600

>X-Mailer: Mush 6.5.6 (PC R6.3 22-Sep-89)

Does anyone have positive (or negative) experiences with the Paccomm
NB9600 digital radios?

(Hoping my return path is sensible now...)
73 Doug

--
/\/\/\/\/\/
Doug Collinge,  samisen![e-mail]
VE7GNU          VE7GNU@VE7DIE V8R4G2 Victoria, BC, Canada

From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar 16 14:35:14 1990
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Date: 16 Mar 90 21:14:33 GMT
From: rochester!kodak![e-mail]  (Ray Williams)
Organization: Eastman Kodak Co, Rochester, NY
Subject: need ka9q for the mac
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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Where can I obtain the ka9q C source code for the mac plus. I have
the Think C compiler.

Ray Williams
WA2RYT
[e-mail]

From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar 16 21:49:34 1990
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Date: 16 Mar 90 22:36:12 GMT
From: zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!umich!monitor!mousetrap![e-mail]  (William S. Johnston)
Organization: Mousetrap
Subject: Net & W2XO bbs
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

I have compiled the xobbs software and it seems to work locally by typing
xobbs <call> but when someone attempts to connect to the bbs via ax25 I get
on my screen either: axincoming: Permission denied or prinout: Permission denied
Does anyone have any ideas as to what is casing this?  I also get the following
when I sign on local: Mail forwarder not running   mail saved but not added to list.

Any ideas as to how to correct this also.  The 'F' command says for Sysops only
Well since I run the system I dont know how to make me a sysop?

thanks in advance....  [e-mail] or [e-mail]

From packet-radio-relay  Sun Mar 18 04:20:39 1990
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Date: 17 Mar 90 13:07:00 GMT
From: modcomp![e-mail]
Subject: Re: TCP/IP Software for Amiga PCs
Message-Id: <97400004@modcomp>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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> Could someone tell me the name or names of any TCP/IP packages that run on
> an Amiga PC? I'd also appreciate any information you might have about
> locating these files on an anonmyous FTP somewhere. Thanks.

> -WA0R

Louis A Mamakos WA3YMHI released an Amiga version of Phil Karn's KA9Q
Internet Protocol Package. It has been refered to as AMIGANOS890930
and is Amiga B1.1 version of 890830 NOS. I don't know where it resides
but if you'll send email, I try to find out.

 -N4IXP  uunet!modcomp!dan Dan Grostick

From packet-radio-relay  Sun Mar 18 10:41:17 1990
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Date: 18 Mar 90 01:33:01 GMT
From: swlabs![e-mail]  (Jack Bonn)
Organization: Software Labs, Ltd.
Subject: Re: Bomb Proof Digital Mode
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <<[e-mail]>, <[e-mail].>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail].> [e-mail] (Joseph C. Pistritto) writes:
>                         Or better yet, some of the 'Reliable' data
>protocols being worked on for military command-and-control systems, which
>use forward error correction, built into IP like packets.

I have been thinking along similar lines.  If I remember correctly, packets
were sent in bit column order.  By this I mean that all the bit 0s for
the packet were sent, followed by all the bit 1s, and so on.  If you had an
8 bit byte and a 4 bit FEC, then all the bit 11s would be sent last.

The theory was that noise is not random.  It is bursty.  So, once noise
disturbs one bit of a packet, it is more likely to hit the following bit.  With
this scheme, if you get a single burst during a packet, and that burst is less
than the bit time times the number of bytes in the packet, then the error is
correctable.  This is because it hit, for example, all the bit 5s for a
number of characters, leaving the remainder of the characters intact and
able to correct the hit.

It seems like the poor characteristics of HF packet could be improved with
some techniques like this.  The FEC could be sent to improve the reliability
of the channel and leave the rest of the protocol (ACKs, etc) intact.  Of
course this would amount to the use of a non standard alphabet, so I guess
that for HF this will have to remain hopeful musing.  Maybe it would be useful
for high speed UHF packet?

-Jack
--
Jack Bonn, N1HHO, <> Software Labs, Ltd, Box 451, Easton CT  06612
uunet!swlabs!jack (UUCP)        [e-mail] (INTERNET)

From packet-radio-relay  Sun Mar 18 11:00:48 1990
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Date: 18 Mar 90 14:58:18 GMT
From: rochester!rit!ultb![e-mail]  (C.E. Piggott)
Organization: Information Systems and Computing @ RIT, Rochester, New York
Subject: Re: Clustering notions in IP
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
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Sender: [e-mail]
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bdale Garbee) writes:
 ...
>IP doesn't depend at all on clustering.  IP is a flat address space.  Use of
>clustering is purely an "efficiency hack", though it has proven to be a very
>useful one.
 ...
>However, it has generated another one of those nasty user confusions that take
>bloody near forever to erase... that it is somehow "right" and "ordained" that
>routing should be designed around and based on the notion that addresses are
>clustered.  That is just *wrong*.  Any reasonable routing implmentation would
>be wise to group routing information that is received such that it can take
>advantage of natural clustering to minimize the size of the route table, etc.,
>but again... that's "just an efficiency hack", and should not be a fundamental
>assumption.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but this seems like a text-book answer
to my question that just *can't* work in the real world.  Isn't the
entire "Local Area Network" a form of clustering?  If the addresses
weren't "clustered" (maybe the problem is that I'm just using the
wrong word), then connecting to 129.21.201.2 (my machine) would be
a confusing thing to do: the first few bits wouldn't select Nysernet,
and the next few bits wouldn't specify WHERE in Nysernet, and the
next few bits wouldn't specify which LAN within RIT, etc.

Maybe part of the confusion is that on packet, we don't have any
have dedicated IP routers (yet!).  When they come, and when we have
a "backbone" net spanning the globe, the LAN concept will become
**crucial**.  (I personally feel that it already is crucial - but it's
much harder to change the current system than it is to shape the
future one).  Then, in a well-defined system, the first 24 (more or
less) bits could point out which LAN you're on...if you have a
properly chosen address, then the entire network ALREADY knows how
to route to you!  The only work comes in giving them information to
translate your hostname into an address, and in modifying tables
each time a new LAN is brought into the network.  How can this
work without heirarchal clustering of addresses?

Please tell me if I'm all wet here (no offense will be taken - aren't
we all still learning, after all? :-) )

>Bdale

    Best 73's
    Chris

--
--
Christopher E. Piggott, N2JGW                   [e-mail]
President                                       [e-mail] [44.69.0.1]
Rochester Institute of Technology               N2JGW @ WB2WXQ
Amateur Radio Club K2GXT                        [e-mail]

From packet-radio-relay  Sun Mar 18 15:42:13 1990
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Date: 18 Mar 90 23:15:40 GMT
From: cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!lad-shrike![e-mail]  (R M Kriss)
Organization: Lockheed Austin Div.
Subject: Term DA & Segmenter
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]


Help! I am looking for two Macintosh utilities:

1. A DA Term Program that supports 9600 baud. MockTerm only does 2400. All
I want is a simple no-brainer term program I can hook to a packet radio
TNC and have it running via the Printer port while I am using White Knight
in the modem port. Would like to be able to work Packet Radio while
up/downloading files with WK.

2. A file Segmenter - Stuffit is great for large segments: however, I need
to segment a file with each segment not greater than 4K. Stuffit's
smallest segment option is about 10K. Anyone know of another utility that
will accomplish this task?

E-mail is the preferred reply method.





=====================================================================
   Richard (Dick) Kriss: : ARPANET: [e-mail]
      904 Dartmoor Cove: : Packet Radio: KD5VU @ KB5PM.TX.USA.NA
    Austin, Texas 78746: : Phone: [phone] (O) or 327-9566 (H)
  My employer has nothing to do with this message! ...  _._
=====================================================================

From packet-radio-relay  Mon Mar 19 09:06:34 1990
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Date: Mon, 19 Mar 90 10:14:17 CST
From: "Charlie Turner" <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: TCP/IP Software for Amiga PCs
In-Reply-To:  modcomp![e-mail] -- Sat, 17 Mar 90 13:07:00 GMT

My thanks to everyone who responded to my question about finding TCP/IP
software for the AMIGA. John Heaton ([e-mail]) identified for me
the FTP at sayshell.umd.edu (128.8.2.88) that has the latest version of
AmigaNOS, as file pub/amiganos-900214a.zoo.

73 WA0R

From packet-radio-relay  Mon Mar 19 11:38:05 1990
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Date: 19 Mar 90 11:37 -0800
From: Doug Collinge VE7GNU <djc@[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Reply-To: samisen![e-mail]
Message-Id: <2604745a.samisen@[e-mail]>
Subject: Clever Digi

>X-Mailer: Mush 6.5.6 (PC R6.3 22-Sep-89)

I just got PE1CHL NET and it is excellent.  One notable feature
is the digipeater, which looks exactly like a digi but works
just like a node.

It does this by simply directly acknowledging packets addressed
to it as a digipeater by synthesizing packets that look like
they are acks from the destination station.  Likewise the
reverse direction.

This is so simple and nifty - why doesn't everyone do it this way?

Sorry if this is stale news for anyone, but I thought it was
great...

73 Doug.

--
/\/\/\/\/\/
Doug Collinge,  samisen![e-mail]
VE7GNU          VE7GNU@VE7DIE V8R4G2 Victoria, BC, Canada

From packet-radio-relay  Tue Mar 20 10:14:18 1990
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Date: 20 Mar 90 17:35:38 GMT
From: ncelvax![e-mail]  (Geoff Dann)
Organization: Naval Civil Engineering Lab, Port Hueneme
Subject: "Bad Header!" message in ka9q
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

I've set up NET over a KISS TNC (MFJ-1274) .
Throughput on FTP seems slow.
Often I get the message "AX25 Receive:"
            "Bad Header!"

            Any idea what this is?
I'm digipeating through a NETROM node to the only other two stations
running NET.  This happens most often right after my TNC has
transmitted, which makes me wonder if the digipeater is transmitting
my packet before my TNC/radio is ready to receive.
This happens with ka9q 881225 and pe1chl/ka9q 871225.12.

Related question maybe:  Anyone have a list of what the tnc parameters
are, and suggested ranges?  The documentation is sketchy on them.
Thanks.....
                    Geoff  n3cfx
        [e-mail]
        [e-mail] (if I get it running!)
        n3cfx@w8akf-1

From packet-radio-relay  Tue Mar 20 10:29:03 1990
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Date: 20 Mar 90 17:45:04 GMT
From: shlump.nac.dec.com!koning.dec.com![e-mail]  (Paul Koning)
Organization: DEC -- Distributed systems architecture
Subject: Re: Clever Digi
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <2604745a.samisen@[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]


In article <2604745a.samisen@[e-mail]>,
djc@[e-mail] (Doug Collinge VE7GNU) writes:

> I just got PE1CHL NET and it is excellent.  One notable feature
> is the digipeater, which looks exactly like a digi but works
> just like a node.
>
> It does this by simply directly acknowledging packets addressed
> to it as a digipeater by synthesizing packets that look like
> they are acks from the destination station.  Likewise the
> reverse direction.
>
> This is so simple and nifty - why doesn't everyone do it this way?

Perhaps because it's a well known BAD idea.  It "works" when loads
are light or the traffic patterns happen to work out in your favor.
As soon as they don't, you get into a state where you have to free up
a buffer to be able to accept a message from the digi next to you,
but you can't free up a buffer because that digi is also short on
buffers and can't accept your message right now.

This is called a "store and forward deadlock".  There are various
ways to fix it.

1. Toss a message when things get congested.  That's the "connectionless"
   (IP style) solution.  It works well, but if you do that you CAN'T
   fake the ACKs, since then you would break the next layer up.

2. Guarantee that there are enough buffers.  This can be done in
   connection oriented (X.25 style) cases.  What you described isn't
   since there is no digi level flow control.  In any case, this approach
   requires "pessimistic" allocation of resources: you have to allocate
   buffers for the worst case or you haven't done anything at all.  Given
   typical bursty traffic, the average case buffer load is a very small
   fraction of the worst case.  In other words, this solution is very
   wasteful of memory.  It may be wasteful of bandwidth if you end up
   running with a smaller "transmit window" (number of packets in transit)
   than would otherwise be necessary.

    paul, ni1d

From packet-radio-relay  Tue Mar 20 13:38:17 1990
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unsubscribe (2nd request)

From packet-radio-relay  Tue Mar 20 17:28:58 1990
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Date: 20 Mar 90 23:25:49 GMT
From: van-bc!ubc-cs!alberta!dvinci!weyr![e-mail]  (Ken Crowston)
Organization: Benden Weyr, Saskatoon Sk. (306)-382-5746
Subject: MFJ 1278
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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I{s anyone out there using {the MFJ1278? Especially the newer versions! I am thinking of buying one and would apreciate some comments. Hoqw well does it work on CW, RTTY etc as I'm not planing to use it just for packet.

tnx  es 73's de VE5KEN - Ken
        Saskatoon, Sask., Canada

--
Ken Crowston - via FidoNet node 1:140/22
UUCP: alberta!dvinci!weyr!Ken.Crowston
Internet: [e-mail]
Standard Disclaimers Apply...

From packet-radio-relay  Tue Mar 20 20:14:09 1990
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Date: 19 Mar 90 23:12:14 GMT
From: hpfcso!hpldola!hp-lsd!col![e-mail]  (Bdale Garbee)
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division
Subject: Re: NB9600
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <2600d4c5.samisen@[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

>Does anyone have positive (or negative) experiences with the Paccomm
>NB9600 digital radios?

My understanding is that these are licensed copies of the G3RUH design, which
is sort of a derivative of the K9NG design.  As such, data on the use of G3RUH
modems should apply.

Not that I have any to share...

Bdale

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 21 04:28:53 1990
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Date: 21 Mar 90 08:45:22 GMT
From: ka9q.bellcore.com![e-mail]  (Phil Karn)
Organization: Secular Humanists for No-Code
Subject: Re: "Bad Header!" message in ka9q
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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The message "Bad Header!" from NET (I assume you have trace turned on)
means exactly what it says: that the host computer received a frame
from the TNC that has a bad AX.25 header. This is usually due to character
loss in the link between the TNC and the host computer. There is no
flow control in the KISS TNC protocol, so this problem can happen if you
run the link too fast. Try slowing it down to 4800 or 2400 baud.

Phil

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 21 09:18:04 1990
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Date: 21 Mar 90  9:09 -0800
From: Doug Collinge VE7GNU <djc@[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Reply-To: samisen![e-mail]
Message-Id: <26069df8.samisen@[e-mail]>
Subject: NB9600 - Gone but back again RSN

>X-Mailer: Mush 6.5.6 (PC R6.3 22-Sep-89)

Thanks, Bdale. (How do you pronounce your name?)

I phoned PacComm about the NB9600 Integrated Packet Radio (TNC+
modem+RF) and they saith:

"We had to redesign it but we hope to have it ready for Dayton"

Now what am I going to get the "appliance" people in my group
to buy?
73 Doug.


--
/\/\/\/\/\/
Doug Collinge,  samisen![e-mail]
VE7GNU          VE7GNU@VE7DIE V8R4G2 Victoria, BC, Canada

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 21 09:23:46 1990
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Date: Wed, 21 Mar 90 09:18 EST
From: "P Bandini, PSU Arch Dept, 814/863-0062" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Modem tax on phone lines.
To: [e-mail]
X-Vms-To: IN%"[e-mail]",PLB

It just came to my attention that the FCC is considering an
additional tax for modem use of telephone lines...
Does anybody have any information/comments/suggestions...?
This is my first posting, so please forgive if inappropriate.

Pier L. Bandini, Dept of Architecture, Penn State University.
[e-mail]

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 21 10:49:47 1990
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Date:         Wed, 21 Mar 90 19:48:23 ITA
From: Cristina Tozzi <[e-mail]>
Subject:      net at 56kbit
To: [e-mail]

     What do I need to set up a station running net.exe at 56kbit ???

Thanks in advance,
Cristina.
---
[e-mail]

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 21 14:41:06 1990
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Date: 21 Mar 90 13:00:36 GMT
From: mcsun!ukc!stc!praxis!newton![e-mail]  (Michael Chace)
Organization: PraXis Electronic Design Ltd, Bath, Avon UK
Subject: ROSE
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]


Hello All,

Could someone mail me some info on the ROSE system ?

I had heard of someone running on an Atari ST - Has ROSE been ported
to this machine?

Thanks & 73,

Mike
****
.............................................................................
| ARPA   :  [e-mail]                   | Michael Chace            |
| JANET  :  [e-mail]                   | PraXis Electronic Design |
| UUCP   :  ...!uunet!mcvax!ukc!praxis!mikec     | The New Church           |
| AMPRNET:  [e-mail]   [44.131.20.3] | Henry Street             |
| AX25   :  G6DHU @ G6DHU-2 or G6DHU @ GB7IMB    | Bath  Avon               |
| Phone  :  (44) [0]225 444700                   | BA1 1PX           UK     |
.............................................................................

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 21 14:53:49 1990
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Date: 21 Mar 90 18:28:42 GMT
From: ncelvax![e-mail]  (Geoff Dann)
Organization: Naval Civil Engineering Lab, Port Hueneme
Subject: "Bad Header!" solved.
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]


I'm posting this in case it helps someone else:

I posted a request for help:

>Often I get the message "AX25 Receive:"
>                       "Bad Header!"

Two responses helped me solve the problem:

From Phil Karn ka9q:

The message "Bad Header!" from NET (I assume you have trace turned on)
means exactly what it says: that the host computer received a frame
from the TNC that has a bad AX.25 header. This is usually due to character
loss in the link between the TNC and the host computer. There is no
flow control in the KISS TNC protocol, so this problem can happen if you
run the link too fast. Try slowing it down to 4800 or 2400 baud.

Phil

And from James Dugal n5knx:

I've seen this happen in two situations:
1. Running DoubleDos with a 4.77 MHz PC, with trace enabled, and the
    serial port to the tnc running at 9600 baud.  It can't keep up
    with the data coming in, and the dropped chars yield a bad packet.

2. Somehow my transmitted packets seem to be heard by the TNC (a 1274 also)
particularly when I use an indoor antenna and perhaps a too-wide deviation
(I have to adjust the mike gain downward for packet).  But the heard packet
is not perfect, leading to error msgs in the trace.

73 & good luck,
-- James


I cranked down the audio output of my TNC (R76 - It's a many-turn pot
(50???) (on a MFJ-1274)) and that seems to have solved the problem.
I still have other problems, but.......

Thanks................Geoff

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 21 15:05:25 1990
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Date: 21 Mar 90 19:26:58 GMT
From: shlump.nac.dec.com!carafe![e-mail]  (Fred R. Goldstein)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corp., Littleton MA USA
Subject: Re: Modem tax on phone lines.
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] ("P Bandini, PSU Arch Dept, 814/863-0062") writes...
>It just came to my attention that the FCC is considering an
>additional tax for modem use of telephone lines...
>Does anybody have any information/comments/suggestions...?
>This is my first posting, so please forgive if inappropriate.

NO! NO! A THOUSAND TIMES NO!

NO! NO! A THOUSAND TIMES NO!

NO! NO! A THOUSAND TIMES NO!

Yes, I'm SHOUTING and repeating myself.  There was a "chain letter"
to this effect in MANY newsgroups a couple of months ago.  It is
ABSOLUTELY FALSE.  The FCC had considered something that vaguely
resembled it a couple of years ago, but those commissioners are GONE
and the new FCC is NOT interested in it.  Period.  BTW, if you can
get comp.dcom.telecom, do check it out; I think somebody this week
had a posting that had the FCC's written reply to a query on the
topic.

Just being Rumor Control Central -- again.
      fred k1io
---
Fred R. Goldstein   [e-mail]
         or [e-mail]
            voice:  [phone]

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 21 17:45:10 1990
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Date: 22 Mar 90 01:40:00 GMT
From: snorkelwacker!usc!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu![e-mail]
Subject: Re: Modem tax on phone lines.
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]


> It just came to my attention that the FCC is considering an
> additional tax for modem use of telephone lines...
> Does anybody have any information/comments/suggestions...?
> This is my first posting, so please forgive if inappropriate.
>
> Pier L. Bandini, Dept of Architecture, Penn State University.
> [e-mail]

Please take note of your source of this false rumor, and remember not
to believe anything that comes from this source ever again, unless you
can determine that they obtained it from a bad source, recursively.

You can see how rumors get started and keep on going.  It is a good
thing you came here and asked us about it.  There was a hint by the
FCC of doing something like this quite a long time ago, and some
people told the FCC, or at least they figured it out, that this was
not a good idea.  It has been suggested, but I've seen no evidence
of it, that the phone companies are propogating this rumor to get
the FCC angry at modem users.

--Phil Howard, KA9WGN--
<[e-mail]>

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 21 19:00:38 1990
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Date: 20 Mar 90 18:27:34 GMT
From: hpfcso!hpldola!hp-lsd!col![e-mail]  (Bdale Garbee)
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division
Subject: Re: Clever Digi
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <2604745a.samisen@[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

>It does this by simply directly acknowledging packets addressed
>to it as a digipeater by synthesizing packets that look like
>they are acks from the destination station.  Likewise the
>reverse direction.

>This is so simple and nifty - why doesn't everyone do it this way?

I'd question whether it is legal.  This implies that the PE1CHL code is
identifying itself as another station?

Bdale

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 21 19:29:27 1990
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Date: 20 Mar 90 18:25:42 GMT
From: hpfcso!hpldola!hp-lsd!col![e-mail]  (Bdale Garbee)
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division
Subject: Re: Clustering notions in IP
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

>Perhaps I'm missing something, but this seems like a text-book answer
>to my question that just *can't* work in the real world.

Depends entirely on what you stipulate as "the real world".

>Isn't the entire "Local Area Network" a form of clustering?
>If the addresses weren't "clustered" (maybe the problem is that I'm just
>using the wrong word), then connecting to 129.21.201.2 (my machine) would be
>a confusing thing to do: the first few bits wouldn't select Nysernet,
>and the next few bits wouldn't specify WHERE in Nysernet, and the
>next few bits wouldn't specify which LAN within RIT, etc.

You're missing my point.  Yes, in practice, is is *wonderful* that addresses
have been assigned in a heirarchical fashion, and that routers typically are
smart enough to recognize that and take advantage of the fact to minimize the
size of their routing tables.  But, there is no requirement other than
administrative/efficiency that it be done this way.

>Maybe part of the confusion is that on packet, we don't have any
>have dedicated IP routers (yet!).  When they come, and when we have
>a "backbone" net spanning the globe, the LAN concept will become
>**crucial**.

Some of us do have dedicated IP routers on packet.  That's not relevant, except
in that we tend to make them resource starved enough that we discover the
benefits of "efficiency hacks" like clustering *very* quickly.

I wish I really believed that amateur packet radio will really have globe-
spanning IP backbones within my lifetime.  If I didn't think it was possible,
I wouldn't work so hard to try and see it happen... but...

>The only work comes in giving them information to
>translate your hostname into an address, and in modifying tables
>each time a new LAN is brought into the network.  How can this
>work without heirarchal clustering of addresses?

I object strenuously to the notion that someone needs to some something manually
just because another subnet gets added.  Maybe you didn't mean that, but you
seemed to imply it.  Good routing software will include the ability to
recognize and propagate routing information as the topology of an Internet
changes.

>Please tell me if I'm all wet here (no offense will be taken - aren't
>we all still learning, after all? :-) )

No, you're not wet at all.  I think we just disagree on what I perceive as a
need to differentiate between what is intrinsically required to make something
work, and what is forced by constraints on resources.  I see clustering as a
textbook case of the latter.

Bdale

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 21 23:12:44 1990
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Date: 21 Mar 90 23:12 -0800
From: Doug Collinge VE7GNU <djc@[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Reply-To: samisen![e-mail]
Message-Id: <2607fa8d.samisen@[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Clever Digi

>X-Mailer: Mush 6.5.6 (PC R6.3 22-Sep-89)


> > This is so simple and nifty - why doesn't everyone do it this way?
> Perhaps because it's a well known BAD idea.   paul, ni1d

I have been giving this some thought and I have decided to disagree
with you:

> [heavy traffic and dearth of buffers leads to]  a "store and forward
> deadlock".
I certainly catch your drift here; I clearly did not give this
enough thought.

> [What to do?]
> 1. Toss a message when things get congested [, like IP, or regular digi].
> 2. Guarantee that there are enough buffers [, like X.25, or NETROMs].

Ok, so you acknowledged a packet when, in fact, it may never get through.
Although I'm sure we both could come up with pathological circular cases
to the contrary, in almost every case both deadlocked digis will be waiting
for some *other* node to clear a buffer and eventually one of them will.
In any case, what's the worst that could happen?  You lose a connection.
Big deal, connections get lost all the time for all kinds of reasons.
I hope no-one relies on any given connection not breaking sometimes.

Under these conditions of heavy loads something has to go.  I don't know
what happens on Internet but on the air around here everyone is thrashing
everyone else right out of the sky long before *anyone* is even close
to running out of buffers.

So the bottom line is:  it may not be very smart in certain other
networking situations but in my particular area (and many others, I
venture to say) it could be a nifty solution to the real problem of
people using a digi when a node is available just because it is
more convenient or because their software doesn't handle nodes
very well.

Just another network weenie,
Doug.


--
/\/\/\/\/\/
Doug Collinge,  samisen![e-mail]
VE7GNU          VE7GNU@VE7DIE V8R4G2 Victoria, BC, Canada

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 21 23:12:23 1990
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Date: 21 Mar 90 23:11 -0800
From: Doug Collinge VE7GNU <djc@[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Reply-To: samisen![e-mail]
Message-Id: <2607e572.samisen@[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Clever Digi

>X-Mailer: Mush 6.5.6 (PC R6.3 22-Sep-89)

>
> >It does this by simply directly acknowledging packets addressed
> >to it as a digipeater by synthesizing packets that look like
> >they are acks from the destination station.  Likewise the
> >reverse direction.
>
> >This is so simple and nifty - why doesn't everyone do it this way?
>
> I'd question whether it is legal.  This implies that the PE1CHL code is
> identifying itself as another station?
>
> Bdale

No more so than any normal digi and certainly less so than the usual
type of node.

Doug


--
/\/\/\/\/\/
Doug Collinge,  samisen![e-mail]
VE7GNU          VE7GNU@VE7DIE V8R4G2 Victoria, BC, Canada

From packet-radio-relay  Thu Mar 22 09:02:39 1990
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Date: 22 Mar 90 09:51:32 GMT
From: mcsun!hp4nl!kunivv1![e-mail]  (Ge' Weijers)
Organization: University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands.
Subject: Re: Bomb Proof Digital Mode
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <<[e-mail]>, <[e-mail].>, <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

[e-mail] (Jack Bonn) writes:

>In article <[e-mail].> [e-mail] (Joseph C. Pistritto) writes:
>>                         Or better yet, some of the 'Reliable' data
>>protocols being worked on for military command-and-control systems, which
>>use forward error correction, built into IP like packets.

>I have been thinking along similar lines.  If I remember correctly, packets
>were sent in bit column order.  By this I mean that all the bit 0s for
>the packet were sent, followed by all the bit 1s, and so on.  If you had an
>8 bit byte and a 4 bit FEC, then all the bit 11s would be sent last.

>The theory was that noise is not random.  It is bursty.  So, once noise
>disturbs one bit of a packet, it is more likely to hit the following bit.  With
>this scheme, if you get a single burst during a packet, and that burst is less
>than the bit time times the number of bytes in the packet, then the error is
>correctable.  This is because it hit, for example, all the bit 5s for a
>number of characters, leaving the remainder of the characters intact and
>able to correct the hit.

If you are going to try to develop a 'bomb-proof' protocol with a form of error
correction you might want to think about using a Reed-Solomon code combined
with the bit-shuffling you describe. This can give exceptional performance.
I think it is possible to use a normal CPU to do the decoding at the low
speeds on amateur radio. (RS code is the one used in compact disk players and
many satellite communication links)

>It seems like the poor characteristics of HF packet could be improved with
>some techniques like this.  The FEC could be sent to improve the reliability
>of the channel and leave the rest of the protocol (ACKs, etc) intact.  Of
>course this would amount to the use of a non standard alphabet, so I guess
>that for HF this will have to remain hopeful musing.  Maybe it would be useful
>for high speed UHF packet?

If such a mode would come into common use on UHF authority to use it on HF would
not be impossible to get, I suppose. There probably is a (proposed) standard
somewhere for this kind of FEC protocol. A standard would be advantageous
in getting the thing accepted by the licensing authority.

Ge' Weijers

Ge' Weijers                                    Internet/UUCP: [e-mail]
Faculty of Mathematics and Computer Science,   (uunet.uu.net!cs.kun.nl!ge)
University of Nijmegen, Toernooiveld 1
6525 ED Nijmegen, the Netherlands              tel. [phone] (UTC-2)

From packet-radio-relay  Thu Mar 22 09:25:09 1990
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Date: Thu, 22 Mar 90 10:47:53 CST
From: "Charlie Turner" <[e-mail]>
To: "Packet Radio Conference" <[e-mail]>
Subject: TCP/IP Basic Questions

While I have some experience with AX.25 packet radio, I am somewhat
confused by TCP/IP packet radio.  As I understand it, my KAM can be
operated in KISS mode under the control of TCP/IP software running in
my PC.  The "IP" part of this seems straight forward; active "nodes"
simply exchange IP packets (datagrams?).  It's the "TCP" part that
confuses me.

A computer host based TCP/IP network (eg. Internet) provides Telnet,
FTP, and SMTP services. Strictly speaking I believe there are client
and server parts to each of these TCP services. My host computer talks
to some remote host, via IP, and establishes client/server virtual
sessions to accomodate my FTP or Telnet requests (is this in fact
true?). However, in the case of SMTP mail, I edit my message and pass
it to a mailer service (I'm a VM/CMS user) which somehow uses SMTP to
route my mail around the network.

So it seems to me that the TCP facilities: Telnet, FTP, SMTP, are very
bulletin board like.  How does one originate and receive mail over a
TCP/IP packet radio network?  If I ran something like the KA9Q NOS in
my PC would I also get, essentially, a packet BBS as part of the
package?

Any comments will be very welcome. Thanks.

73 WA0R

From packet-radio-relay  Thu Mar 22 11:19:25 1990
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Date: 22 Mar 90 18:01:57 GMT
From: mcsun!hp4nl!nikhefk![e-mail]  (Henk Peek)
Organization: Nikhef-K, Amsterdam (the Netherlands).
Subject: Re: Clever Digi
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <2604745a.samisen@[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bdale Garbee) writes:
->It does this by simply directly acknowledging packets addressed
->to it as a digipeater by synthesizing packets that look like
->they are acks from the destination station.  Likewise the
->reverse direction.

->This is so simple and nifty - why doesn't everyone do it this way?

>I'd question whether it is legal.  This implies that the PE1CHL code is
>identifying itself as another station?

The PE1CHL code send the same measages as a digipeater. When you known
to indentify a digipeater, you can indentify the PE1CHL digipeater.

Henk   PA0HZP

From packet-radio-relay  Thu Mar 22 12:29:35 1990
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Date: 22 Mar 90 19:39:55 GMT
From: shlump.nac.dec.com!leftlane.ucs.dec.com![e-mail]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Subject: TCP/IP package, which one and where
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

Could someone please tell me what is the latest version of the TCP/IP
code that runs on an IBM PC clone under DOS.  I would like to get up and
running, but all I can find is an old 2-87 version of the "ka9q net" code.

Is net still the package of choice, or is NOS a replacement for it.  I do
not use OS/2, just MSDOS 3.3.  Where do I get a current copy of the
code/source and an IP address.

Thanks,
Mark

From packet-radio-relay  Thu Mar 22 21:14:25 1990
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Date: 23 Mar 90 04:53:40 GMT
From: sgi![e-mail]  (Rob Warnock)
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA
Subject: Re: Bomb Proof Digital Mode
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> I wrote:
+---------------
|      ...The following is a sketchy (and somewhat
| innaccurate) look at what it takes:
+---------------
   ^
   |
   +---- Well, it *was* inaccurate, wasn't it?  ;-}  ;-}

Sorry 'bout that...

-Rob


-----
Rob Warnock, MS-9U/510          [e-mail]            [e-mail]
Silicon Graphics, Inc.          [phone]           Protocol Engines, Inc.
2011 N. Shoreline Blvd.
Mountain View, CA  94039-7311

From packet-radio-relay  Thu Mar 22 21:14:53 1990
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Date: 23 Mar 90 04:42:43 GMT
From: sgi![e-mail]  (Rob Warnock)
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA
Subject: Re: Bomb Proof Digital Mode
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail].>, <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ge' Weijers) writes:
+---------------
| If you are going to try to develop a 'bomb-proof' protocol with a form of
| error correction you might want to think about using a Reed-Solomon code
| combined with the bit-shuffling you describe. This can give exceptional
| performance.  I think it is possible to use a normal CPU to do the decoding
| at the low speeds on amateur radio. (RS code is the one used in compact disk
| players and many satellite communication links)
+---------------

There is a very simple R-S code which can be done fairly easily in software.
The (255,252) code sends 3 bytes of checksum for each 252 bytes of data. It
will correct any single byte in error, and detect any two bytes in error.
If you use another 4 bytes (taken from the data field) for a CRC-32, you
get a *much* lower chance of miscorrection, and can even drop back to the
single-detect/correct (255,253) code (which, because of the CRC-32, really
has become a (255,249) hybrid code). The following is a sketchy (and somewhat
innaccurate) look at what it takes:

For the R-S code, you need two tables of 256 bytes, and one of 64k bytes.
The first table provides for multiplication by a fixed primitive polynomial
in GF(256), the second supplies multiplicative inverses, and the big table
does general multiply for two GF(256) values. (You also need a 256 word
or 1024 byte table for the CRC-32). For each byte sent, you have to do
the following at the transmitter and receiver:

    c0 ^= data[i];                    /* "multiply" by alpha**0 and accum */
    c1 = mul_by_alpha_tbl[c1] ^ data[i]; /* multiply by alpha and accum */

    crc32 = (crc32 << 8) ^ crc32_tbl[(crc32 >>24) ^ data[i]]; /* CRC-32 */

Then at the receiver, after receiving the packet, you check the crc32 for
being the received CRC. If equal, o.k. Alternatively, you check for both
c0 & c1 being zero (including accumulating the incoming checksums.) If not,
Then the byte in error is given by c1/c0 -- in GF(256) arithmetic, which is:

    errpos = mul_tbl[c1, inv_tbl[c0]];

And the error value is just c0, so the correctin becomes:

    data[errpos] ^= c0;

Again, I've left out lots of details, but the above *does* give a close
order of magnitude for the CPU work needed, namely, a couple of table-
lookups and a couple of XORs per byte.

-Rob

p.s. If you skip the CRC-32 but use the full (255,252), you have to add
another 256-byte table for multiplying by alpha**(-1), and a new checksum
byte with the following line replacing the CRC-32 line above:

    cM1 = mul_by_alpha_M1_tbl[c1] ^ data[i]; /* multiply by alpha**(-1) */

You get about a CRC-16's worth of protection against mis-correction.


-----
Rob Warnock, MS-9U/510          [e-mail]            [e-mail]
Silicon Graphics, Inc.          [phone]           Protocol Engines, Inc.
2011 N. Shoreline Blvd.
Mountain View, CA  94039-7311

From packet-radio-relay  Thu Mar 22 21:44:21 1990
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Date: 23 Mar 90 05:16:03 GMT
From: ka9q.bellcore.com![e-mail]  (Phil Karn)
Organization: Secular Humanists for No-Code
Subject: Re: TCP/IP package, which one and where
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]


NOS development continues. The latest experimental version is kept on
flash.bellcore.com in /pub/ka9q/src.arc (sources) and net.exe (executable).

Unfortunately I just haven't had the time to finish updating the
documentation, so you'll have to figure out the differences either by
reading the source (which IS well commented) or reading my notes to
the tcp-group mailing list archives on ucsd.edu in /mailarchives/tcp-group*

Phil

From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar 23 02:44:23 1990
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Date: 23 Mar 90 10:41:51 GMT
From: zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu![e-mail]
Subject: Re: Bomb Proof Digital Mode
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]


Can someone give me some good literature references for learning about how
various error CORRECTION codes work.  My knowledge begins with the basic
4/3 hamming code, and my curiousity goes to and beyond what is used on CD's.
Purely research only references probably won't help right now.
Thanks.

--Phil Howard, KA9WGN--
<[e-mail]>

From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar 23 06:16:04 1990
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Date: 23 Mar 90 01:50:46 GMT
From: pilchuck!ssc![e-mail]  (Tad Cook)
Organization: very little
Subject: Re: Modem tax on phone lines.
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] ("P Bandini, PSU Arch Dept, 814/863-0062") writes:
> It just came to my attention that the FCC is considering an
> additional tax for modem use of telephone lines...
> Does anybody have any information/comments/suggestions...?
> This is my first posting, so please forgive if inappropriate.
>
> Pier L. Bandini, Dept of Architecture, Penn State University.
> [e-mail]




NO!  NO!  NO!  (this is not a flame)

The FCC is NOT considering a special tax for using modems on telephone
lines.  A couple of years back there was talk of applying the same
network access charges to data networks that the long distance voice
networks have paid since divestiture, but it got killed.

This rumor keeps coming up....it was flying all over the packet and
landline BBS networks AGAIN a few months ago.

Again, it is NOT true.



Tad Cook
Seattle, WA
Packet: KT7H @ N7HFZ.WA.USA.NA
Phone: [phone]
MCI Mail: 3288544
Telex: 6503288544 MCI UW
USENET:...uw-beaver!sumax!amc-gw!ssc!tad
or, [e-mail]

From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar 23 06:28:09 1990
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From: Athula Herath <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 90 14:05:14 GMT
Message-Id: <[e-mail]1>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Could you kindly include me in the mailing list.


Hi,

Could you kindly include me in your mailing list.

my email addresss

[e-mail]

Thanks

Athula  Herath, Dept. of Computer Science, Univ. of Keele, Keele, England.
ST5 5BG.


From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar 23 09:59:36 1990
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Date: 23 Mar 90 17:36:57 GMT
From: swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sunybcs!castor.cs.Buffalo.EDU![e-mail]  (Devon E Bowen)
Organization: State University of New York at Buffalo/Comp Sci
Subject: Re: Bomb Proof Digital Mode
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Can someone give me some good literature references for learning about how
>various error CORRECTION codes work.  My knowledge begins with the basic
>4/3 hamming code, and my curiousity goes to and beyond what is used on CD's.

Please post and replies. I'm also quite interested. Thanks.

Devon

From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar 23 11:34:33 1990
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Date: 23 Mar 90 19:14:54 GMT
From: sgi![e-mail]  (Rob Warnock)
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA
Subject: Re: Bomb Proof Digital Mode
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
+---------------
| Can someone give me some good literature references for learning about how
| various error CORRECTION codes work.  My knowledge begins with the basic
| 4/3 hamming code, and my curiousity goes to and beyond what is used on CD's.
| Purely research only references probably won't help right now.  | Thanks.
+---------------

Here's my personal list:

    - Hamming's little intro book (small blue hardback, I forget the title)
    - Berlekamp, "Algebraic Coding Theory", (Aegean Park Press)
    - Costello & Liu, "An Introduction to Error Correcting Codes" (?)
    - Peterson & Weldon, "Error Correcting Codes"
    - Blahut, "Theory and Practice of Error Control Codes"

Hamming's little book is an easy start, but only goes through single-error
correction. Costello & Liu (or Liu & Costello?) is a pretty good cross-section.
And if you get *really* serious, try Berlekamp's "Algebraic Coding Theory"
(Aegean Park Press, L.A., CA) which is considered the "classic" text. I've
read the others, but those three seem to span most of what one would want
to know. Unfortunately, you really do have to get hip-deep into the theory
in order to write practical applications. Oh, and somebody just told me about:

    - Arazi, "Commonsense Approach to the Theory of Error Correcting Codes"
      (MIT Press)

The person said it had a good writeup of the general solution for the special
case of RS(2^n-1, 2^n-3) codes [of which the (255,253) code I mentioned is
an instance], with nice diagrams, worked out examples for both decoding &
encoding, and the underlying mathematics. I haven't gotten a copy yet, so
I can't say firsthand...


-Rob

-----
Rob Warnock, MS-9U/510          [e-mail]            [e-mail]
Silicon Graphics, Inc.          [phone]           Protocol Engines, Inc.
2011 N. Shoreline Blvd.
Mountain View, CA  94039-7311

From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar 23 13:06:30 1990
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Date: 23 Mar 90 19:47:12 GMT
From: idacrd![e-mail]  (Robert McGwier)
Organization: idacrd, princeton, nj
Subject: HF work, VE3JF, DSP, etc.
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]


Howdy:

I (FINALLY) got my copy of QEX today (not their fault, I waited until the
last possible second to renew just like always) and read McClarnon's (VE3JF)
article, "More Ideas for a Robust HF Packet Signal Design".  I have just a
couple of comments:

HIP HIP HURRAY.  HIP HIP HURRAY. Sanity at last.  Barry just moved to
the top of the list to test DSP modems built by yours truly for HF.

If you want to read a couple of sane articles about HF, I suggest you
get a copy of the March 1990, QEX and his earlier article in QEX in
December 1987.  A relevant article is done by Allan Kaplan, W1AEL,
and is a nice thought provoking piece, even though I came to the same
conclusions Barry did.  You may find Kaplan's article in the November
1989 issue of QEX.  It appears that QEX is providing a useful forum
for discussion of HF modems/protocols.  I will describe my work there
in order to fulfill a (two year old) promise to Rinaldo.  What Barry
describes as his `ideal modem', one which does multiple bits/baud
and the baud rate is 75 baud, is exactly what I have done and the
first report was given at DATASPACE 1989, last July in Guildford,
University of Surrey, England.  There were few details and now that
I have actual `tnc hardware/software' to hook it to, the testing
should proceed at an accelerated pace.

At the moment, I am really busy adding satellite modems, and other `required'
modems (Why do I need to add THIRTY different tone pairs for a single HF FSK
modem?).   I'm also hacking a modified duobinary partial response at 4800 baud
(a sane approach to going faster with existing FM radios, No DC and no excess
bandwidth), and other goodies (all the usual HF WEFAX, AMTOR etc.)

I hope to see many of you hams at Dayton and to show you all of the wonderful
toys during either my packet or satellite talk.

Once again, I recommend Barry's work/papers highly.

Bob  N4HY
--
____________________________________________________________________________
    My opinions are my own no matter    |       Robert W. McGwier, N4HY
    who I work for! ;-)                 |       CCR, AMSAT, etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar 23 13:12:53 1990
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Date: 23 Mar 90 13:11 -0800
From: Doug Collinge VE7GNU <djc@[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Reply-To: samisen![e-mail]
Message-Id: <260a0483.samisen@[e-mail]>
Subject: Aloha efficiency: for real?

>X-Mailer: Mush 6.5.6 (PC R6.3 22-Sep-89)

It seems to me that the much-quoted fully-loaded Aloha channel efficiency
of 18.4% is based on the assumption that if two stations transmit at the
same time, neither gets through.  In fact, on FM channels, one station
will often make it because of the capture effect.

How much stronger does a signal have to be to capture another?  And how
much does this improve the Aloha figure, if at all?

73 Doug.


--
/\/\/\/\/\/
Doug Collinge,  samisen![e-mail]
VE7GNU          VE7GNU@VE7DIE V8R4G2 Victoria, BC, Canada

From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar 23 19:02:51 1990
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Date: Fri, 23 Mar 90 20:01:50 CST
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Pat Davis, Wis AMPR IP Address Coord.)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]
Subject: TCP/IP over NETROM


Having seen inquiries about W9NK's (Dan Frank) implementation of NETROM for
KA9Q's TCP/IP package, I have this to offer..  As I recall, I have a file
on my work system, pgd.adp.wisc.edu  128.104.198.22, which
is called NRMAN.txt.  In there, Dan says that if you REALLY want the best
details on his Netrom implementation/emulation, you should order copies of
the ARRL Computer Networking Conference papers ( there are papers submitted
for each years conferences )..  Anyway, in the 87 or 88 papers (from ARRL)
is Dan's expose' on IP over Netrom..  I'll bet that the ARRL will still
sell you copies of all that good stuff!  I hope I have not DUPLICATED
somone else's posting on this..... I have been tooo busy to read all my
E-mail :-)..   Anyway, the papers are no doubt worth their weight in gold,
considering the various authors..  Wish I had some myself!
At least *I* get to visit W9NK in person once in a while..  I always learn
somthing when I do.

Enjoy, Pat--KD9UU

From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar 23 19:15:02 1990
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Date: 24 Mar 90 01:44:35 GMT
From: snorkelwacker!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!turnkey!orchard.la.locus.com!prodnet.la.locus.com!lando![e-mail]  (Dana H. Myers)
Organization: Locus Computing Corporation, Inglewood, CA
Subject: DCD questions
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]


   I've got a question regarding DCD on current TNCs... did these
current TNCs have any form of carrier detect to start with, or do they
just wait to see a flag (start of frame)? Does the TAPR upgrade enable
and use the Lock Detect output?

*****************************************************************
* Dana H. Myers WA6ZGB          | Views expressed here are      *
* [phone]                | mine and do not necessarily   *
* [e-mail]                | reflect those of my employer  *
*****************************************************************

From packet-radio-relay  Sat Mar 24 22:29:48 1990
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Date: 25 Mar 90 06:11:23 GMT
From: ka9q.bellcore.com![e-mail]  (Phil Karn)
Organization: Secular Humanists for No-Code
Subject: Re: DCD questions
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dana H. Myers) writes:
>   I've got a question regarding DCD on current TNCs... did these
>current TNCs have any form of carrier detect to start with, or do they
>just wait to see a flag (start of frame)? Does the TAPR upgrade enable
>and use the Lock Detect output?

All TNCs that I know of have came with some form of carrier detection.  The
problem is that many such circuits are not very reliable, particularly those
that simply look for energy in the channel. The better carrier detect
circuits look for something more closely resembling an actual data signal,
thereby making them much less susceptible to falsing by background noise.

A carrier detect circuit is not necessary to make the receiver work. With
any TNC, you can simply open the squelch and feed the random noise into the
receiver. When a valid frame arrives, the TNC will decode it. The carrier
detect circuit is needed to inhibit the transmitter when another station is
already using the channel.

Phil

From packet-radio-relay  Sun Mar 25 04:14:40 1990
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Date: 25 Mar 90 12:02:21 GMT
From: cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu![e-mail]  (circuit)
Organization: UW-Milwaukee CSD-operations, Media Dept.
Subject: What is ham-radio.packet?
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]




    Please tell me WHAT EXACTLY or at least a good approximation
of ... ham-radio.packet is???!!! I have been reading a bit lately and
have a rough idea of what your talking about.. I understand and know
what TCP/IP is and satellites, and I know what ham-radio is but...
what's the packet deal? Please tell me I think I found another hobby I
can't afford :-)


thanks

C()




--
#include <[e-mail].h>
#include <Clever witty .sig under construction sorry for the inconvience.h>

From packet-radio-relay  Sun Mar 25 09:44:41 1990
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Date: 25 Mar 90 16:51:03 GMT
From: rochester!rit!ultb![e-mail]  (C.E. Piggott)
Organization: Information Systems and Computing @ RIT, Rochester, New York
Subject: Re: TCP/IP over NETROM
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]


In all of the ARRL computer networking conferences, I have not been
able to find much of a description of the level three net/rom
protocol.  Is this in fact documented anywhere, or is my only option
to pull apart a two-inch stack of code written in German?

(Yes, I want to do some net/rom applications developement - call me
crazy.)

Chris
--
--
Christopher E. Piggott, N2JGW                   [e-mail]
President                                       [e-mail] [44.69.0.1]
Rochester Institute of Technology               N2JGW @ WB2WXQ
Amateur Radio Club K2GXT                        [e-mail]

From packet-radio-relay  Sun Mar 25 09:44:44 1990
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Date: 25 Mar 90 16:35:04 GMT
From: asuvax!stjhmc!p0.f601.n720.z3.fidonet.org![e-mail]  (Derek Zorn)
Organization: FidoNet node 3:720/601.0 - Night Cats plus, Taipei TAIWAN
Subject: I'm intrested in Packet Radio
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

I'm writing this msg. at a normal telephone BBS. But I'm intrested in
how Packet Radio works. What kind of equipment do you need? What would be
the average cost? Also, what kind of license (if any) do you need? Are
BBS's for the Packet Radio more or less like normal phone BBS's? By that,
I mean the layout, entering msgs and downloading etc. Hope to here from
anyone who has a Packet Radio soon.
---------------------------
Derek Zorn
March 22, 1990: 20:30
Night Cats Plus BBS
Taipei, Taiwan, R.O.C.

 ORIGIN: 200/016 - ***-=> Night Cats Plus <=-*** (886-2-767-1428) 24Hrs


--
Uucp: ...{gatech,ames,rutgers}!ncar!asuvax!stjhmc!3!720!601.0!Derek.Zorn
Internet: [e-mail]

From packet-radio-relay  Sun Mar 25 22:00:02 1990
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Date: 26 Mar 90 05:07:08 GMT
From: cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!stjhmc![e-mail]  (David Dodell)
Organization: St. Joseph's Hospital/Medical Ctr, Phoenix, AZ
Subject: IP address assignment
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

I am the IP Address Coordinator for Arizona (44.124) ... we are in the process
of restructuring the numbering assignments here, and I was curious to hear
from other IP coordinators on how they make assignments in their states.

Is assignments being made based on geography, frequency, etc?

Thanks and 73,

David WB7TPY



--
   -------------------------------------------------------------------------
      St. Joseph's Hospital and Medical Center, Phoenix, Arizona
    uucp: {gatech, ames, rutgers}!ncar!asuvax!stjhmc!ddodell
    Bitnet: ATW1H @ ASUACAD                    FidoNet=> 1:114/15
    Internet: [e-mail]       FAX: [phone]

From packet-radio-relay  Mon Mar 26 08:45:15 1990
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Date: 26 Mar 90 16:17:59 GMT
From: microsoft![e-mail]  (James THIELE)
Organization: Microsoft Corp., Redmond WA
Subject: Re: I'm interested in Packet Radio
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

I used to see discussion of satellites on this newsgroup, i.e.
Webersat, but haven't lately.  Did the discussion move?

James Thiele

From packet-radio-relay  Mon Mar 26 12:15:10 1990
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Date: 26 Mar 90 18:23:24 GMT
From: usc!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!rpi!image.soe.clarkson.edu!sunybcs!uhura.cc.rochester.edu!rochester!kodak!eastman!hpcore![e-mail]  (Paul Gerwitz)
Organization: Eastman Kodak Company, Rochester, NY
Subject: Electronic version of AX.25 Spec
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

Does anyone know where I could get a copy of the AX.25 Spec in electronic
form (FTP, UUCP access) or could someone mail it to me ??  I know I could
write to ARRL, but I am in need of it sooner that Snail Mail could get it
here.
--
 +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Paul F Gerwitz  WA2WPI  | SMTP: [e-mail]                          |
 | Eastman Kodak Co        | UUCP: ..rutgers!rochester!kodak!eastman!gerwitz  |
 +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

From packet-radio-relay  Mon Mar 26 15:01:46 1990
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Date: 26 Mar 90 21:26:11 GMT
From: samsung!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!IDA.ORG![e-mail]  (Eric Roskos)
Organization: IDA, Alexandria, VA
Subject: Re: Weather Fax. HELP!!!!!
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

[e-mail] (Lawrence Roney) writes:

>Our Earth Science Department purchased a Kenwood R-2000 HF receiver and an AldenElectronics
>9321 Weather Chart Recorder for reception of radio fax weather
>pictures.

Well, you have purchased a very wonderful piece of equipment.  Clean all
the mess off of it (I'm assuming you bought one of the FAA surplus
models?), buy the maintenance manual for it, and look carefully at how
it is constructed.  This is how electronic things are built when
maximizing profit through minimizing the production costs is not the
primary goal.  I think you could mount it on a truck and drive around
with it running and it would still record.  Well, probably not really,
the loop electrode assembly would bounce around.  It is really easy to
maintain, too, and its principles of operation are both easy to
understand, and somewhat amazing -- it's the first place I ever
encountered a "sample and hold" circuit...  since it is built in
discrete components rather than on an IC, you can see how it works.
It's fairly amazing the way it captures the voltage at the peaks of the
AM carrier cycles on a small capacitor between two MOS FETs.  The only
problem is moving it...  when I moved to a new location awhile back, the
mover threatened to quit when they saw the equipment because they didn't
want to carry it down the stairs, it's so heavy.

If you're buying the replacement parts (you have to replace the loop and
blade electrodes regularly, plus other parts that occasionally wear out,
and also buy the wet electrolytic paper for it) from someone other than
Alden, write to the address that's on the chassis and ask for pricing
information.  You might ask for the original advertising information on
the recorder, too...  it's interesting how expensive the optional parts
are, new.  I'm not sure how much the recorders sell for, new, but Alden
still sells them.

>Nonetheless we have never seen anything printed in the fax machine except
>black lines.

Yes, it only has an AM demodulator in there unless you have a special
model.  I posted detailed design information for an FM demodulator
*specifically* for the Alden 9231 about a year ago, which you need to
demodulate the FM subcarrier that is transmitted on HF.  You can receive
pictures from the polar satellites, and from the GOES Tap if your have
that, directly with the 9231, though, since that's what its demodulator
is for.  One problem is that the 9231 emits RF interference fairly
strongly on 137.4 and 137.62 MHz, as well as random noise from the
switching of the marking amp on and off.  I wish it didn't since those
are prime polar satellite frequencies, but I guess it passes the FCC
emissions regulations, and it was actually made for use with leased wire
services.  I've never been able to figure out what causes the
interference, but it comes from the master oscillator board, which runs
at a much lower frequency.  If you figure out how to reduce the RFI I'd
be interested.  One problem I found is that the signal input line goes
directly past the power supply line to the marking amp (it's wrapped
inside the same bundle of wires), which inductively picks up noise from
the marking amplifier transistor turning on and off.

>       -- Is there a better way to receive weather pictures with different
>          gear?  Is there a TNC and PC setup that might work better than
>          the paper based fax unit?

Yes.  The best I've found is the A&A Engineering demodulator using a PC
with a VGA, about $120 or so.  There are commercial programs such as the
Elmer Schwittek MultiFax software package you can use to display output
from the A&A demodulator on the PC.  These give photographic quality
images, compared to the good but limited-contrast and limited-resolution
images of the 9231.  The 9231 is best for recording weather maps rather
than satellite pictures.

>       -- What should the receiver bet set on?  (AM, USB, LSB, CW)

For HF stations, set it on USB or LSB -- if you set it to the wrong sideband
you will get a negative image and will know you need to use the other (also
the recorder won't sync properly if you're using the wrong sideband).

For direct reception from the polar satellites, use FM, but you need a
WEFAX receiver for that.  Despite what people say, other kinds of
receivers won't work very well...  I've tried it.  You get a picture but
with a lot of noise and poor grey scale.  The WEFAX receivers are
relatively inexpensive compared to general-coverage receivers and
scanners.

>       -- Is a long wire good enough or do we need a beam or something?

Yes, a long wire is fine for HF.  For VHF from the satellite, you need a
circularly-polarized antenna such as the WEFAXTENNA from Vanguard.

>Any assistance or help would be greatly appreciated.  Earth Science won't
>let me walk down their hall until I get this thing working.

I hope the above will be of some help.
--
Eric Roskos ([e-mail] or [e-mail])

  "if you want more information, please specify how much more information
  you want."  --From a recent posting on the Kerberos mailing list

From packet-radio-relay  Mon Mar 26 19:30:21 1990
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Date: 27 Mar 90 03:15:59 GMT
From: shlump.nac.dec.com!leftlane.ucs.dec.com![e-mail]  (Mark Curtis)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Subject: NOS domain.txt file & help files
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

This weekend I finally got on TCP/IP based packet, but I tried to use a
version of NOS (900312), not NET.  While I did get the code to compile
fine, I can not get the NOS code to be really useful.  It will not
use the standard hosts.net file.  In Phil's four page release notes he
does mention this.  The replacement is the domain.txt file, however
no one I can find knows what one looks like.  What is the format of
this file?  Maybe a couple of example entries?????  Without that
file NOS is crippled.

While looking at the source file files.c,  I found that there appears to
be a dir for AX.25 mailbox help files.  All the src.arc file contained was
sources and a makefile.   Are these files something I am missing from
a dist archive or are they something the user adds like the finger files?

Is /spool/areas a file or dir?  If a file what is its format?  If a dir am I
missing more files.

What does the /spool/rewrite file look like?

In config.h what do the options NRS, AXLINK, SCC, and SLFP add?  I
turned on AXLINK .  Its comment made it sounde useful, but what
do these four features add?  With the lack of the domain file very
little could be tested.

I really like the new screen handling, features, and feel of NOS, but
no one in my area, SF Bay, seems to use NOS.  In fact several people
got a little upset when I told them I was.  So I'm now using a version
of NET, but I will change back the second I can get the domain/resolver
problem worked out.

Is BM still needed to read and send mail with NOS?  Or is that now built-in.

Where can I find these missing files, formats, and any docs?  I really
want to get NOS up and flying.  What little I got working looked great.

73,
Mark  WE8K
[44.4.0.31] [e-mail]
we8k@ka6jlt AX.25 PBBS
[e-mail] (should work, but decwrl is often flaky)

From packet-radio-relay  Tue Mar 27 10:51:01 1990
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Date: 27 Mar 90 13:18:00 EDT
From: "SWEIGERT, DAVID" <[e-mail]>
Subject: mailing list
To: "packet-radio" <[e-mail]>


Would you be kind enough to add me to the mailing list...





From packet-radio-relay  Tue Mar 27 13:17:12 1990
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Date: 27 Mar 90 15:15:00 EDT
From: "SWEIGERT, DAVID" <[e-mail]>
Subject: NAVY USE OF PACKET RADIO
To: "packet-radio" <[e-mail]>


The Navy is considering the demonstration of a packet radio network to
measure the feasibility of using it with non-tactical ADP systems to
pass supply and maintenance data.  Persons interested in the military's
use of packet radio can E-mail me your address and I shall keep you
updated on developments.

Where is it now ?

Proposal being prepared for CINCLANT, Norfolk, VA to fund demonstration.

cheerss
WB9VKO

data 301-997-4536



From packet-radio-relay  Tue Mar 27 17:44:23 1990
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Date: 26 Mar 90 16:59:33 GMT
From: hpl-opus!hpnmdla![e-mail]  (Glenn Elmore)
Organization: HP Network Measurements Div, Santa Rosa, CA
Subject: Re: Aloha efficiency: for real?
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <260a0483.samisen@[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]


FM threshold is commonly quoted as being 10 dB C/N but it may depend
upon the particular detector. In addition, my experience in watching
1200 baud AFSK leads me to think that something nearer 20 dB may be
required before things stop improving. It's probably safe to guess that
a signal 20 dB larger than another will effectively capture it, a signal
only 10 dB stronger might not for typical amateur packet situations.

Glenn Elmore  n6gn

From packet-radio-relay  Tue Mar 27 20:15:33 1990
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Date: 26 Mar 90 18:37:07 GMT
From: hpfcso!hpldola!hp-lsd!col![e-mail]  (Bdale Garbee)
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division
Subject: Re: net at 56kbit
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

>What do I need to set up a station running net.exe at 56kbit ???

Currently, the best combination I've seen is a PC or AT clone, with a DRSI
PCPA card, cabled directly to a WA4DSY modem.  That, and net.exe, and you're
golden.

The PCPA is a "dumb" 8530-based card for the PC.  K3MC's Awesome I/O Card is
almost available from DRSI, when it is, it'll be the preferred interface card
for cost and performance at 56kb kinds of speeds in a PC.

Bd
le

From packet-radio-relay  Tue Mar 27 20:14:12 1990
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Date: 26 Mar 90 18:56:09 GMT
From: hpfcso!hpldola!hp-lsd!col![e-mail]  (Bdale Garbee)
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division
Subject: Re: TCP/IP package, which one and where
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

The latest released pre-NOS version of NET is available on col.hp.com, aka
[15.255.240.16], in ka9q/890421.1.

Bdale

From packet-radio-relay  Tue Mar 27 20:17:39 1990
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Date: 26 Mar 90 18:54:56 GMT
From: hpfcso!hpldola!hp-lsd!col![e-mail]  (Bdale Garbee)
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division
Subject: Re: TCP/IP Basic Questions
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

>While I have some experience with AX.25 packet radio, I am somewhat
>confused by TCP/IP packet radio.  As I understand it, my KAM can be
>operated in KISS mode under the control of TCP/IP software running in
>my PC.

Correct.

>The "IP" part of this seems straight forward; active "nodes"
>simply exchange IP packets (datagrams?).

Yes.  IP is sort of like AX.25, in that it is simply the definition of the
packet format that will be used for communication between multiple hosts.  In
particular, it has a source and destination address, and contains some amount of
data.

>It's the "TCP" part that confuses me.

TCP is a protocol that "rides on top" of IP, and provides a connection-oriented
facility.  We speak of IP datagrams as individual entities, we speak of TCP
connections.  TCP works by defining a header and a trailer that take the first
few and last few bytes of the data in an IP frame.  Like:

    | ip header | tcp header | data | tcp trailer | ip trailer |
            |- - - - - the tcp packet - - - - |
    |- - - - - - - - - - -  the ip packet - - - - - - - - - - -|

>A computer host based TCP/IP network (eg. Internet) provides Telnet,
>FTP, and SMTP services. Strictly speaking I believe there are client
>and server parts to each of these TCP services. My host computer talks
>to some remote host, via IP, and establishes client/server virtual
>sessions to accomodate my FTP or Telnet requests (is this in fact
>true?). However, in the case of SMTP mail, I edit my message and pass
>it to a mailer service (I'm a VM/CMS user) which somehow uses SMTP to
>route my mail around the network.

Yes.  This is fairly accurate.  SMTP is a protocol, like FTP and Telnet.  The
problem is that with FTP and Telnet, there are programs of the same name that
implement the protocols, which is confusing.  With SMTP, there's usually some
"mail delivery agent", or background process, that takes care of moving mail
from your system to another system.  There is a separate "mail user agent" that
implements that actual user interface for mail.  The user and delivery agents
typically communicate through spool and mailbox directories.  With the KA9Q
package, the BM mailer is one example of the mail user agent, and there is a
mail delivery agent wrapped inside NET.

>So it seems to me that the TCP facilities: Telnet, FTP, SMTP, are very
>bulletin board like.  How does one originate and receive mail over a
>TCP/IP packet radio network?  If I ran something like the KA9Q NOS in
>my PC would I also get, essentially, a packet BBS as part of the
>package?

If you think of a BBS as being a host that provides certain connection oriented
services, then a system running the KA9Q package and allowing FTP, Telnet, and
SMTP certainly fits the same model.  However, you really get more than that.
Because of the way the IP protocol family works, you can also provide services
that are not connection oriented, it's trivial to support multiple simultaneous
activities, you're not restricted to just packet radio links, it's not hard to
write new applications, sourcecode is freely available, etc etc etc.

Hope that helps.

Bdale, N3EUA

From packet-radio-relay  Tue Mar 27 22:23:28 1990
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Date:         Wed, 28 Mar 90 15:11:07 JST
From: KOMATSU Toshiki <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Re: unsubscribe
To: [e-mail]
In-Reply-To:  Message of Tue, 27 Mar 90 08:36:10 CST from
 <[e-mail]>


     Dear OM,
     I've seen this mail through bitnet , and in this net , how to unsubscribe
is to tell or mail ' SIGNOFF I-PACRAD ' to addr.-'listserv@uiucvmd' .
     This mailserver says ' Do not send to i-pacrad@uiucvmd .'

     Regards ,
/KOMATSU Toshiki
Univ.of Tsukuba,JAPAN

From packet-radio-relay  Tue Mar 27 23:29:14 1990
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Date: 27 Mar 90 17:25:37 GMT
From: eru!luth!sunic!tut!kannel![e-mail]  (Juha Nurmela)
Organization: Lappeenranta University of Technology, Finland
Subject: stacking yagis
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

yanaa:

I've got two 70 cm yagis and i wonder what would be
the best stacking distance, with maximum gain in mind.

The antennae (:-)) are made according to the schema
in ARRL antenna book:
 70 cm, 15 elements each, boom len about 3 meters.


Thanks for any advice,

juha nurmela, oh5nxo, [e-mail]

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 28 09:16:15 1990
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Date: 28 Mar 90 17:06:16 GMT
From: helios.ee.lbl.gov!bevb.bev.lbl.gov![e-mail]  (Alan Biocca)
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, Berkeley
Subject: Re: Aloha efficiency: for real?
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <260a0483.samisen@[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Glenn Elmore) writes:
>
>FM threshold is commonly quoted as being 10 dB C/N but it may depend
>upon the particular detector. In addition, my experience in watching
>1200 baud AFSK leads me to think that something nearer 20 dB may be
>required before things stop improving. It's probably safe to guess that
>a signal 20 dB larger than another will effectively capture it, a signal
>only 10 dB stronger might not for typical amateur packet situations.
>
>Glenn Elmore  n6gn

While the stronger signal may well capture the detector will it be decoded
properly?  If the weaker packet had already begun the receiving
TNC's state machine may not be able to synchronize with the new packet, and
both would be lost.  Perhaps a quick-recovery decoder could be used,
but I don't believe the ones currently in use will often recover that fast.

Alan K Biocca
WB6ZQZ

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 28 11:00:51 1990
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Date: 28 Mar 90 10:38 -0800
From: Doug Collinge VE7GNU <djc@[e-mail]>
To: uvicctr!hplabs.hp.com!hpl-opus!hpnmdla!glenne, [e-mail]
Reply-To: samisen![e-mail]
Message-Id: <260fd0fc.samisen@[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Aloha efficiency: for real?

>X-Mailer: Mush 6.5.6 (PC R6.3 22-Sep-89)

If what n6gn says is true about FM capture (it takes 20dB) then I doubt
that capture effect has more than an insignificant effect, at least
around here.
73 Doug

--
/\/\/\/\/\/
Doug Collinge,  samisen![e-mail]
VE7GNU          VE7GNU@VE7DIE V8R4G2 Victoria, BC, Canada

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 28 12:18:43 1990
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Date: 28 Mar 90 14:58:00 EDT
From: "SWEIGERT, DAVID" <[e-mail]>
Subject: USN PACKET RADIO
To: "packet-radio" <[e-mail]>


Thank you for the response to the eralier USN packet message.

The issue driving potiential packet use on US Navy ships is the full
range of user data services needed by supply and maintenance officers.
Currently, critical repair items are documented in a narrative message
form and sent out via the ship's radio room.  This narrative message
resembles a TELEX or teletype page.  It is transmitted at 75 bits/second
via the Navy Telecommunications Service.  Well, that is painfully slow,
compared with 300 or 1200 bits/second that may be achieved via HF long
haul or VHF short haul.

There is a real change in attitudes within Navy circles today regarding
innovative communications technology.

Aircraft carriers are now equiped with cellular telephones to extend the
ship's pier side landllline an additional 25 - 50 miles while she is
underway.  Some carriers are also equiped with INMARSAT commercial satellite
terminals that can use 9600 bits/second dial-up voice circuits.  Ofcourse,
both solutions cost in terms of paying for air time.

However, if reliable packet communications can be used to move the
mountains of supply and maintenance data of mission support computer
systems (no tactical or classified data) at no cost a significant cost /
benefit arguement can be made for packet radio.

The key: reliable communications at a decent data rate, 300 or 120000.
(that's 1200 not 120000, sorry).

The radio platforms are already in place for HF communications, an interface
shall be built to link via RS-232 to a gateway PC.

Then there shall be the chore of I.P. addresses, etc.

That is a quick snap-shot of the situation today.

WB9VKO a



From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 28 13:31:34 1990
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Date: 28 Mar 90 20:08:14 GMT
From: shlump.nac.dec.com!leftlane.ucs.dec.com![e-mail]  (Mark Curtis)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Subject: timezone setting in NET/BM
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

I can not figure out how to set the time zone in BM.  One sample bm.rc file
had an entry "zone MST", however even the bm.exe packed with that bm.rc
wouldn't accept that entry.  Using a binary file viewer on two versions
of bm.exe
didn't turn up anything like zone or timezone.  I did find record, mbox,
screen,
reply, maxlet, folder, and mqueue, what are these used for?  The BM version
is v3.3.1.5sac 881015.

I have also have found what I beleive is a bug.  If the user selects f # to
forward a message, it seems to forward ok.  However after that access
to all of the messages in that folder screw up.   Using h will still list
headers, but they are all blank!  Using the message number or . to list
the text of a message just produces a few blank lines.  It doesn't just affect
the forwarded message it gets them all.

It would also be nice to be able to add something to a forwarded message.
As it is now bm will not let you add anything to the message you are
forwarding.  An explaination of why you are forwarding a message on to
someone is a common requirement, but it doesn't seem to allow that.

73,
Mark (still looking for NOS docs of any kind, please!)

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 28 15:32:36 1990
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Date: 28 Mar 90 23:22:42 GMT
From: zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!rex!rouge!pc.usl.edu![e-mail]  (DugalJP)
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern La., Lafayette
Subject: Re: timezone setting in NET/BM
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mark Curtis) writes:
>I can not figure out how to set the time zone in BM.  One sample bm.rc file
>
>It would also be nice to be able to add something to a forwarded message.

BM uses the TZ MSDOS environment variable for timezone specification.
Put something like "set TZ=CST6" in your autoexec.bat.

Here's a way to send a msg on with comments:  from within BM use
the m (mail) command to specify the recipient, then begin entering
the text that you desire to send.  In column 1 enter ~m to insert the
body of the current message (the one you were reading and want to
forward).  Terminate as usual with a period in column 1.
Type ~? for a list of ~-prefix commands.

73 de James, N5KNX
--
-- James Dugal, N5KNX           Internet: [e-mail]
Associate Director              Ham packet: n5knx@w5ddl
Computing Center                US Mail: PO Box 42770  Lafayette, LA  70504
University of Southwestern LA.  Tel. [phone]       U.S.A.

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 28 15:33:58 1990
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Date: Wed, 28 Mar 90 18:10 EST
From: "D.RODMAN" <[e-mail]>
Subject: ANTENNA ROTATOR
To: [e-mail]
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
X-Organization: University at Buffalo
X-Envelope-To: [e-mail]
X-Vms-To: PACRAD

Anyone planning to purchase an Orion antenna rotator?  I suggest you wait
a while.  I have been waiting for 6 months.  The container was poorly
packed.  Damage to rotator, control box and all hardware was scattered
amongst the popcorn.  No schematic.  No warranty card.  No instructions
on calibrating the unit.  They are sending me a new one.  I would suggest
waiting for them to get their act together, shame too, it looks like a
well designed system!
Dave KN2M

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 28 17:03:08 1990
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Date: 28 Mar 90 20:49:47 GMT
From: ndcvb!cartan!ndmath!nstar!w8grt![e-mail]  (Jim Grubs)
Organization: QRV de W8GRT
Subject: Re: Electronic version of AX.25 Spec
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

[e-mail] (Paul Gerwitz) writes:

> Does anyone know where I could get a copy of the AX.25 Spec in electronic
> form (FTP, UUCP access) or could someone mail it to me ??  I know I could
> write to ARRL, but I am in need of it sooner that Snail Mail could get it
> here.
> --
>  +---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  | Paul F Gerwitz  WA2WPI  | SMTP: [e-mail]
>  | Eastman Kodak Co        | UUCP: ..rutgers!rochester!kodak!eastman!gerwitz
>  +---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Try HamNet on Compuserve.

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 28 18:29:40 1990
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Date: 29 Mar 90 02:19:39 GMT
From: zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!pollux.usc.edu![e-mail]  (Kenneth J. Hendrickson)
Organization: EE-Systems, Univ. of So. Calif., Los Angeles
Subject: Re: stacking yagis
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Juha Nurmela) writes:
>I've got two 70 cm yagis and i wonder what would be
>the best stacking distance, with maximum gain in mind.
>juha nurmela, oh5nxo, [e-mail]

More info about stacking antennas:

The stacking distance strongly depends upon the gain of the antennas.

You also didn't specify what you were looking for.  Do you want maximum
gain?  Do you want a clean pattern?  In which plane?

In general, I usually recommend stacking at just a short distance less
than the max_gain_distance.  This will reduce the gain only marginally,
but clean up the pattern significantly.  Sorry, but my literature is
2600 miles away, so I can't give any quantitative information.

Ken Hendrickson N8DGN/6      [e-mail]      ...!uunet!usc!pollux!kjh

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 28 18:20:24 1990
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Date: 29 Mar 90 02:07:30 GMT
From: zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!pollux.usc.edu![e-mail]  (Kenneth J. Hendrickson)
Organization: EE-Systems, Univ. of So. Calif., Los Angeles
Subject: Re: stacking yagis
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Juha Nurmela) writes:
>yanaa:
>I've got two 70 cm yagis and i wonder what would be
>the best stacking distance, with maximum gain in mind.
>
>The antennae (:-)) are made according to the schema
>in ARRL antenna book:
> 70 cm, 15 elements each, boom len about 3 meters.
>
>Thanks for any advice,
>juha nurmela, oh5nxo, [e-mail]

If these were commercial antennas, I would advise you to contact the
manufacturer.  They should have this information.

Since these antennas are probably home-made, I would recommend that you
check out some of the articles published in the literature.  You should
be able to find two or three good articles in Ham Radio Magazine, from
the middle 80's.  Unfortunately, my mags are 2600 miles away, so I can't
give you a better reference.

You didn't say if you wanted to stack them in the E-plane or the
H-plane.

Ken Hendrickson N8DGN/6      [e-mail]      ...!uunet!usc!pollux!kjh

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 28 19:29:48 1990
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Date: 29 Mar 90 01:12:11 GMT
From: cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!turnkey!orchard.la.locus.com!prodnet.la.locus.com!lando![e-mail]  (Dana H. Myers)
Organization: Locus Computing Corporation, Inglewood, CA
Subject: Re: Aloha efficiency: for real?
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <260a0483.samisen@[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Alan Biocca) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Glenn Elmore) writes:
>>
>> ...................................... It's probably safe to guess that
>>a signal 20 dB larger than another will effectively capture it, a signal
>>only 10 dB stronger might not for typical amateur packet situations.
>>
>>Glenn Elmore  n6gn
>
>While the stronger signal may well capture the detector will it be decoded
>properly?  If the weaker packet had already begun the receiving
>TNC's state machine may not be able to synchronize with the new packet, and
>both would be lost.  Perhaps a quick-recovery decoder could be used,
>but I don't believe the ones currently in use will often recover that fast.

  My understanding is that a TNC keys up the transmitter and sends a stream
of HDLC flags for a short time, to allow all the pieces of the chain to start
doing their jobs (i.e. transmitter actually start transmitting, receiver start
receiving, TNC to "lock up" on the bit stream). These flags will, I believe,
terminate the weaker frame prematurely and then start a new one. I would tend
to believe that most TNCs would throw away the interrupted frame and start on
the new one. Chips like the ubiquitous Z8530 do this pretty rapidly I believe.
The interrupted packet would look like a packet with a bad FCS (frame check
sum).

   I would appreciate further input on this myself - I'm building a TNC
right now (hardware looks complete, time for firmware) and this sort of thing
is useful (the TNC is not a kit, my own design).

*****************************************************************
* Dana H. Myers WA6ZGB          | Views expressed here are      *
* [phone]                | mine and do not necessarily   *
* [e-mail]                | reflect those of my employer  *
*****************************************************************

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 28 20:29:38 1990
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Date: 29 Mar 90 03:53:03 GMT
From: netcom![e-mail]  (Dave Mc Mahan)
Organization: NetCom- The Bay Area's Public Access Unix System {408 249-0290 guest}
Subject: Re: Bomb Proof Digital Mode
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

> Here's my personal list:
>
>         - Hamming's little intro book (small blue hardback, I forget the title)
>         - Berlekamp, "Algebraic Coding Theory", (Aegean Park Press)
>         - Costello & Liu, "An Introduction to Error Correcting Codes" (?)
>       - Peterson & Weldon, "Error Correcting Codes"
>       - Blahut, "Theory and Practice of Error Control Codes"
>
> Hamming's little book is an easy start, but only goes through single-error
> correction. Costello & Liu (or Liu & Costello?) is a pretty good cross-section.


My copy of Hamming's little book is called:

  Coding and Information Theory
      by Richard W. Hamming
      Publised by Prentice-Hall, Inc.
      ISBN 0-13-139139-9


This is an EXCELLENT book on coding and information theory.


  -dave

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 28 20:59:35 1990
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Date: 27 Mar 90 17:14:00 GMT
From: hpfcso!hpldola!hp-lsd!col![e-mail]  (Bdale Garbee)
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division
Subject: Re: IP address assignment
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

>I am the IP Address Coordinator for Arizona (44.124) ... we are in the process
>of restructuring the numbering assignments here, and I was curious to hear
>from other IP coordinators on how they make assignments in their states.

We split the address block into binary divisions along "RF boundaries".  While
this is not necessary, or in all cases advisable, in our area it has in fact
simplified routing.

Each user is assigned a block of 4 addresses to start with, but they aren't
told it's a block of 4.  We give them the lowest address in the block, and if
they ask for more, we give them another adjacent address.  This way, a guy with
an XT on the air full time and an AT a slip link away can be cluster routed
by the local switch via his XT.  A fairly common configuration here...

>Is assignments being made based on geography, frequency, etc?

Avoid geography unless you mean "RF geography".  There isn't anything magic
about living a town away if it's a direct RF path.  In Colorado, we made a
3-way split early on between SE Colorado, NE Colorado, and the "western slope",
on the west side of the Continental Divide.  This makes sense, because there
is an RF boundary between Colorado Springs and Denver, and pretty good
connectivity Denver-north and Colorado Springs-south.  Beyond that, additional
subdivision has been pretty pointless.

Bdale

From packet-radio-relay  Wed Mar 28 23:44:33 1990
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Date: 28 Mar 90 22:44:09 GMT
From: cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!hrc!valley![e-mail]  (Mike Pflueger)
Organization: AG Communication Systems
Subject: Packet(?) on commercial bands
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]


The local (Phoenix) police and fire use some packet-like mode to communicate
with computers in the vehicles, and my PK-232 signal analysis mode is unable
to figure it out.  I've also tried quite a few combinations manually, to no
avail.

Sounds like about 2400 baud, and it's bursty like packet.

If anyone else figured out what formats commercial systems use, could you
please post them or email them.

Thanks

--
Mike Pflueger @ AG Communication Systems (formerly GTE Comm. Sys.), Phoenix, AZ
  UUCP: {...!ames!ncar!noao!asuvax | uunet!hrc | att}!gtephx!pfluegerm
  Work: 602-582-7049        FAX: [phone]
Packet: WD8KPZ @ W1FJI     Internet: PLEASE USE UUCP PATH (NOT INTERNET)!

From packet-radio-relay  Thu Mar 29 01:10:11 1990
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Date:         Thu, 29 Mar 90 11:05:26 MEZ
From: "Detlef J. Schmidt" <[e-mail]>
Subject:      intro: TheNetNode
To: Packet-radio <[e-mail]>



There is something new with good old TheNet:

             TheNetNode

            by NORD><LINK


This new Version runs entirely inside a PC or Atari computer and uses
TNC2s with a special KISS Eprom as an "intelligent interface".

New features are:
 - up to 255 Channels on one Computer
 - Call forwarding (just connect MYBOX, the node will know what call
   to connect you with and how to get there. If a BBS is down the sysop
   may set a route to an adjacent box.
 - Converse Mode
 - Monitor Heard list
 - Help system expandable by sysop
 - Software updating thru radio
 - Watchdog hardware for TNC and Computer (simple)
 - Sysop has full remote access do DOS
 - sophisticated statistics done for every channel ( quality, thruput, etc)
 - written in C (we use Turbo-C 2.0)
 - TNC-KISS firmware with TOKEN-RING protocol

Hardware? Only standard items (plus simple watchdog). The PC and all TNCs
are connected together in a token ring. If a TNC fails the watchdog will
close the ring around it and reset the hardware. If the TNC comes up again
it is recognized automatically and put into service. If the computer fails
it is rebooted. You may omit the watchdog circuitry but if one TNC catched
a bit flu it could break the whole ring.

Status? Ready. The circuit diagram for the watchdog comes on a distribution
disk (print it on any EPSON printer).

Problems? We don't count them. The manual is not ready yet. The german
version is done right now. Translation to english has to be done next
(anybody willing to do that job?).


Here is a short command overview (some are for the sysop only, more to come):

AKTUELL:   gives you actual news for the digi
BEACON:    all around the baecon
BCNODES:   to send the beacon across "not TheNet nodes"
CLEAR:     clear statistics
CONNECT:   make a connection
CONVERS:   enter converse mode, same as TheNet 1.1C
CQ:        call cq
CTEXT:     signon message on connect
DISABLE:   disable a channel
DOS:       prefix for DOS commands
EDIT:      enter a message text
ENABLE:    enable a channel
HARDWARE:  gives a hardware description of the node
HELP:      gives a help info
INFO:      gives general information
IO:        controls bits of the printer port (e.g. antenna switching)
LINKS:     for connects across special "not TheNet nodes"
LOAD:      upload a file on the node's disk
MAP:       gives a small map of all the neighbours
MHEARD:    tells you who was heard when on what channel
NODES:     tells you all the known nodes
PARAMETER: read/modify parameters
PROMPT:    modify prompt
QUIT:      disconect from this node (see below for details)
READ:      read an ASCII file from the node's disk
RESET:     force a reboot for the node
ROUTES:    sets/tells all existing routes
SOFTWARE:  gives a software description
STAT:      read statistics
START:     start a program on the node
SUSPEND:   for the bad guys
SYSOP:     verify a sysop
SYSPRO:    sysop logfile
TEST:      xmit test pattern on a port for alignment (from remote|)
TIME:      what time is it
USER:      who is on this node
VERSION:   what version is this node

TheNetNode features reconnect. If the station called by you disconnects
you will find yourself reconnected to the remote node's command processor. If
the station that initiated the connect disconnects, the whole link will be
disconnected. If you connect node A and from there node B and from there
node C, and then issue a QUIT you will be reconnected to the command
processor of B, if you QUIT again you will be at A again (the next quit then
will disconnect you from A). So you may snoop thru a net and go from here
to there without rebuilding the whole link again. If digis of other types
are involved in the link, the reconnect will end up at the last TheNetNode
connected. Reconnect is not available for standard TheNet now.

After all TheNetNode is fully compatible to TheNet. It works together
with any other TheNet neighbour node without any restrictions. But the
full features are only available on the new version ( of course ).

And there are more features to come. But because everything is written in
Turbo-C the software may be modified on your own computer, test it and
upload it to your node. If you put your linker on the node's disk you may
even upload just one module and start a link from remote thru the DOS gate.

The current release for the PC version is 1.22. It's running here on
several sites since some weeks without problems so far. So we decided
to declare the beta test passed (still waiting for the ultimate bug).
But if you'd prefer a 680*0 TheNetNode is for you too. An ATARI-ST
version is available with identical features.

Interested? More details will be available soon.

Georg ( df2au )
Detlef ( dk4eg )
.

From packet-radio-relay  Thu Mar 29 10:00:10 1990
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Date: 29 Mar 90 15:06:43 GMT
From: van-bc!ubc-cs!nebulus![e-mail]  (Dennis S. Breckenridge)
Organization: Alchemy Mindworks, Vancouver, Canada
Subject: Re: Packet(?) on commercial bands
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mike Pflueger) writes:
>
> The local (Phoenix) police and fire use some packet-like mode to communicate
> with computers in the vehicles, and my PK-232 signal analysis mode is unable
> to figure it out.  I've also tried quite a few combinations manually, to no
> avail.
>
What you are hearing is "commercial packet" It is in MMP protocol. Even
if you could capture the bits with your TNC you would spend the next
three lifetimes decoding the packet. Security is top on the list when
it comes to public safety. MMP is a proprietary Mobile Data International
protocol.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dennis S. Breckenridge  [phone]   [e-mail]           VE7TCP
           EMACS: Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From packet-radio-relay  Thu Mar 29 18:16:40 1990
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Date: 30 Mar 90 00:56:57 GMT
From: jupiter![e-mail]  (Phil R. Karn)
Organization: Bell Communications Research, Inc
Subject: Re: Aloha efficiency: for real?
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <260a0483.samisen@[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Alan Biocca) writes:
>While the stronger signal may well capture the detector will it be decoded
>properly?  If the weaker packet had already begun the receiving
>TNC's state machine may not be able to synchronize with the new packet, and
>both would be lost.  Perhaps a quick-recovery decoder could be used,
>but I don't believe the ones currently in use will often recover that fast.

Alan,

This is not a problem. Amateur packet radio frames begin and end with
HDLC "flag" characters, which do not appear anywhere inside the frames
themselves. Whenever a flag appears, the decoder immediately terminates
the current frame and begins looking for a new one. (The new frame
starts with the first non-flag character received after one or more flag
characters).

So as long as the stronger signal fully captures the receiver, it will
be decoded even if a weaker packet was already in progress. You will, of
course, lose the weaker signal's packet entirely.

Phil

From packet-radio-relay  Thu Mar 29 19:47:06 1990
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Date: 29 Mar 90 22:05:53 GMT
From: hpl-opus!hpnmdla![e-mail]  (Glenn Elmore)
Organization: HP Network Measurements Div, Santa Rosa, CA
Subject: Re: stacking yagis
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]


Crude rule of thumb is to stack them one boomlength.
You might want to start there and then play with changing
it while watching the pattern. Unless you have a fairly
clean "range" you may want to be content with that though
since you may have difficulty observing the effect of changes.

Glenn Elmore -N6GN-

N6GN @ K3MC
[e-mail]
[e-mail]

From packet-radio-relay  Thu Mar 29 23:55:19 1990
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Date: 29 Mar 90 23:37 -0800
From: Doug Collinge VE7GNU <djc@[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Reply-To: samisen![e-mail]
Message-Id: <26128d5a.samisen@[e-mail]>
Subject: 6 meters?

>X-Mailer: Mush 6.5.6 (PC R6.3 22-Sep-89)

Anyone have any experience with packet at 6m?  Will skip and tropo
be a problem?

Seems like a digital radio at 50MHz would be *real* cheap to build...
Doug (Internet is pretty neat)

--
/\/\/\/\/\/
Doug Collinge,  samisen![e-mail]
VE7GNU          VE7GNU@VE7DIE V8R4G2 Victoria, BC, Canada

From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar 30 05:00:47 1990
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Date: 30 Mar 90 12:49:19 GMT
From: [e-mail]  (Brian Kantor)
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Subject: Re: 6 meters?
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <26128d5a.samisen@[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

Out here on the left coast there is a state-wide backbone at 4800 bps
using K9NG modems on 51.12.  The radios are typically Motorola
MOCOM-70s or MICORs, which often show up at swap meets for $100 or so.
50 to 100 watts is the typical power level.  Unfortunately the skirts
of the receiver's IF filters are a bit too narrow for 9600 bps.

It's not really a user access channel, but is instead intended as
trunking between metro nets.  The typical configuration is a pair of
(ecch) Net/Rom nodes back to back: one on the 6m trunk and the other on
145.0x for user access.

Occasionally the 6m node will learn about distant nodes via skip but
those routes soon fade away and get expired out of the routing tables.
It seems a good idea to me to run the route expiration cycle a bit
faster than the net/rom default of 1 hour on such a node.  Also,
because it's not a user access channel, you can turn off the net/rom
autojam beacon.
        - Brian

From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar 30 07:30:44 1990
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Date: 30 Mar 90 14:16:51 GMT
From: zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!jato!quartz.jpl.nasa.gov![e-mail]  (Mike Stockett)
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Subject: HF packet modems...
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

about HF packet modems, why is it that no one has mentioned the subject
of using matched filters? I find this interesting because the British
Government has been using an MFSK system with matched filters in the
demodulator for about 20 years to communicate with its Embassies via
HF. Granted that they are NOT passing binary data -- although they
encrypt what they transmit, and one can consider that binary data! --
the system does work, it is very robust, and when you look at the
environmental requirements that precipitated their decision to use
this particular scheme the constraints look very much like those that
we amateurs have to put up with. For those that are interested, this
system is refered to as "Piccolo" by the various monitoring agencies,
and you can find limited discussions of it in swl manuals, and if you
know where to look, in some of the technical journals.

I'm not saying that we should use this system, but the general idea
might be worth considering. By the way, the baud rate for the transmitted
signal (not the input bit rate) is about that of a 10 - 12 wpm cw signal;
while the input signal bit rate is either 50, 75, or 110 bps. Any way,
some food for thought.

/\/\ike, wa7dyx
TEL:            [phone]
FAX:            [phone]
Internet:       [e-mail]
AX25:           wa7dyx@k6iyk
TCP/IP          44.16.0.82/44.16.0.98

From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar 30 08:00:32 1990
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Date: 30 Mar 90 15:36:50 GMT
From: [e-mail]  (Andrew Payne)
Organization: Cornell Theory Center, Cornell University, Ithaca NY
Subject: Re: 6 meters?
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <26128d5a.samisen@[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <26128d5a.samisen@[e-mail]> samisen![e-mail] writes:
>Anyone have any experience with packet at 6m?  Will skip and tropo
>be a problem?
>
>Seems like a digital radio at 50MHz would be *real* cheap to build...
>Doug (Internet is pretty neat)

    Yep, the some guys up in New England (NEDA :: New England Digital
Association) are using 1200 baud (last time I was there) 6m links for some
long haul backbones.  Plus with one site having over a dozen ports, desense
becomes a problem, and you go for any band you can get!

    I've thought about 6m packet radios too.  Contstruction at 50mhz is
a little easier than at UHF...
--
=  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =
Andrew C. Payne, N8KEI        UUCP:  ...!cornell!batcomputer!payne
              INTERNET:  [e-mail]

From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar 30 09:47:56 1990
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Date: 30 Mar 90 15:07:06 GMT
From: zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!hrc!godzilla![e-mail]  (Brian Daly)
Organization: gte
Subject: Re: stacking yagis
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Juha Nurmela) writes:
> yanaa:
>
> I've got two 70 cm yagis and i wonder what would be
> the best stacking distance, with maximum gain in mind.
>
> The antennae (:-)) are made according to the schema
> in ARRL antenna book:
>  70 cm, 15 elements each, boom len about 3 meters.
>
The ideal spacing is one wavelength to maximize the gain. This is
70 cm = 27.5 inches. I believe that one could also stack at multiples
of one wavelength to achieve the same characteristics, but I would
have to go through some calculations/computer simulations to be
certain this is true.

Another important consideration is feeding the array. Both Yagi-Uda
arrays need to be fed in-phase, plus you must maintain proper
impedance matching at the feedpoint, as follows:


      Yagi #1                   Yagi #2
         ___                      ___
         \ /                      \ /
          l________________________l
     Point A           l        Point B
               l
               l 50 ohm feed line
              /\
           Need to see 50 ohms looking in

 The phase at point A = phase at point B. As far as how to do this, I
believe both the ARRL antenna book and the ARRL Handbook both show
methods for providing this feed mechanism (I know I've seen it in older
editions). If you can't find it, email me a message (via UUCP given below)
and I'll send you the details.

73's.
--
Brian K. Daly WB7OML @ AG Communication Systems, Phoenix, Arizona
UUCP: {...!ames!ncar!noao!asuvax | uunet!zardoz!hrc | att}!gtephx!dalyb
Phone: [phone]    FAX: [phone]
~

From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar 30 10:03:06 1990
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Date: Fri, 30 Mar 90 13:02:12 EST
From: [e-mail] (Barry McLarnon DGBT/DIP)
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: HF packet modems...
Cc: [e-mail]

>about HF packet modems, why is it that no one has mentioned the subject
>of using matched filters? I find this interesting because the British
>Government has been using an MFSK system with matched filters in the
>demodulator for about 20 years to communicate with its Embassies via
>HF. Granted that they are NOT passing binary data -- although they
>encrypt what they transmit, and one can consider that binary data! --
>the system does work, it is very robust, and when you look at the
>environmental requirements that precipitated their decision to use
>this particular scheme the constraints look very much like those that
>we amateurs have to put up with. For those that are interested, this
>system is refered to as "Piccolo" by the various monitoring agencies,
>and you can find limited discussions of it in swl manuals, and if you
>know where to look, in some of the technical journals.

MFSK systems like Piccolo are robust, but it's hard to get enthusiastic
about them because they are also very 1) slow, 2) bandwidth-inefficient.
F'rinstance, take a typical Piccolo configuration (Mark 3, I think), which
runs at 10 baud (100 ms symbol length) and uses 32 tone frequencies with
10 Hz spacing.  This gives you only 50 bps throughput in a bandwidth of
320 Hz, or 0.156 bits/Hz.  These aren't the kind of numbers which will
excite folks interested in improving HF packet throughput and spectrum
management!  One area where the MFSK approach might fly though, is on the
EME path.

The next generation of HF packet modems won't likely be all that much
different from the MFSK modems - they too will use a set of orthogonally-
spaced tone frequencies.  The main differences are that *all* of the tones
will be transmitted at once, and that they will probably carry PSK rather
than FSK modulation.  Of course, since they'll be implemented in DSP boxes,
a separate robust MFSK mode for use on really nasty channels could easily
be included as a fallback mode.

>/\/\ike, wa7dyx

Barry  VE3JF


From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar 30 10:17:29 1990
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Date: 29 Mar 90 13:19:53 GMT
From: uupsi!sunic!chalmers!afs-news!utcrt2.utc.chalmers.se![e-mail]  (Christer Bernerus)
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology, Gothenburg, Sweden.
Subject: Re: stacking yagis
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

Hmmm. Nice to see a fellow UHF guy on the net, almost within reach
without having
to use the moon ...

Lets see, 3m boom is somewhat more than 4 wavelengths. The antennae thus
are quite long.
The usual recommendation if optimizing for gain is 2-2.5 wavelengths
which means
1.4 - 2 metres apart. Omtimizing for space (communication) suggests
smaller spacing in
order to minimize the backlobe. I somewhere saw 0.8-1 wavelength.

See you on 70
Chris.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christer Bernerus (SM6FBQ)                      ! E-mail:
University Technology Centre for Andrew (UTC)   ! [e-mail]
Chalmers University of Technology
S-412 96 Gothenburg  SWEDEN

From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar 30 13:34:18 1990
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Date: 30 Mar 90 20:08:20 GMT
From: samsung!umich!pmsmam![e-mail]  (Bill Meahan)
Organization: Ford Motor Co EFHD Ypsilanti Plant, Ypsilanti MI
Subject: Re: HF packet modems...
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Barry McLarnon DGBT/DIP) writes:
>
>The next generation of HF packet modems won't likely be all that much
>different from the MFSK modems - they too will use a set of orthogonally-
>spaced tone frequencies.  The main differences are that *all* of the tones
>will be transmitted at once, and that they will probably carry PSK rather
>than FSK modulation.  Of course, since they'll be implemented in DSP boxes,
>a separate robust MFSK mode for use on really nasty channels could easily
>be included as a fallback mode.
>
>

Using a scheme similar to what Telebit does to get 19.2Kbps over a dial-up
telephone connection?????

Given that packet uses modem signalling derived from telephone applications,
it would seem appropriate to 'upgrade' the packet modem standards to match
what the landline types do.  Would the FCC object to PEP or V.32 operation
to get higher BPS rates given that these encoding schemes do not take up any
more bandwidth than a voice channel?  Anybody working on it?


>Barry  VE3JF
Bill WA8TZG
--
Bill Meahan                     |  UUCP: uunet!mailrus!umich!pmsmam!wwm
                | snail: 128 Factory St., Ypsilanti, MI 48197
#include <disclaimer.std>       | voice: [phone]
/* witty */                     |packet: wa8tzg @ wa8ooh.mi.usa.na

From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar 30 16:59:45 1990
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Date: 31 Mar 90 00:19:28 GMT
From: cs.utexas.edu!samsung!dali!milton![e-mail]  (Peter Dahl)
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Subject: Re: intro: TheNetNode
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

Does anyone know where I can ftp a copy of TheNetNode?

        73 de Peter, WA7FUS

From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar 30 18:29:43 1990
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Date: 31 Mar 90 02:24:22 GMT
From: snorkelwacker!usc!pollux.usc.edu![e-mail]  (Kenneth J. Hendrickson)
Organization: EE-Systems, Univ. of So. Calif., Los Angeles
Subject: Re: stacking yagis
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Brian Daly) writes:
>The ideal spacing is one wavelength to maximize the gain.

This is not true.  The maximum_forward_gain_spacing is a function of the
gain of the antennas being stacked.  It could also be (almost
equivalently) considered to be a function of the boomlength of the
antennas being stacked.

There are also other considerations.  Do you want maximum forward gain?
Do you want maximum front-to-back ratio?  Do you want maximum
front-to-side ratio?  Do you want some combination of these merit
figures, like almost maximum gain with a clean pattern?

Ken Hendrickson N8DGN/6      [e-mail]      ...!uunet!usc!pollux!kjh

From packet-radio-relay  Fri Mar 30 21:26:10 1990
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    id AA10373; Fri, 30 Mar 90 21:25:47 PST
Date: 30 Mar 90 21:25 -0800
From: Doug Collinge VE7GNU <djc@[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Message-Id: <2613ca7a.samisen@[e-mail]>
Subject: Six (6) Meters

>X-Mailer: Mush 6.5.6 (PC R6.3 22-Sep-89)

In response to my earlier query about using packet on 6 meters someone
suggested the possibility of TVI.

Is this likely?  My metro area is virtually 100% cabled, if that has
any relevance.

My kids 49MHz walkie-talkies don't cause my TV any problems - even if
I jam them right up its beak.

73 Doug

PS: Anyone who may have had mail troubles before when trying to send me
mail please call again to [e-mail] which should really,
truly work.  DC

--
/\/\/\/\/\/
Doug Collinge,  samisen![e-mail]
VE7GNU          VE7GNU@VE7DIE V8R4G2 Victoria, BC, Canada

From packet-radio-relay  Sat Mar 31 08:53:04 1990
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Date: 31 Mar 90 06:17:33 GMT
From: ka9q.bellcore.com![e-mail]  (Phil Karn)
Organization: Secular Humanists for No-Code
Subject: Re: HF packet modems...
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bill Meahan) writes:
>Given that packet uses modem signalling derived from telephone applications,
>it would seem appropriate to 'upgrade' the packet modem standards to match
>what the landline types do.  Would the FCC object to PEP or V.32 operation
>to get higher BPS rates given that these encoding schemes do not take up any
>more bandwidth than a voice channel?  Anybody working on it?

Bill,

In my opinion, this would be repeating a mistake. There's a fundamental
tradeoff between bandwidth and signal-to-noise ratio in any communications
system, and radio and telephone channels are usually quite different in this
respect. Telephone modems use modulation methods that are optimized for
narrow bandwidth channels with relatively high signal-to-noise ratios, and
this makes them inherently inefficient on many radio channels. They are
also usually designed for full-duplex operation, while most radio channels
are half-duplex.

The current Bell 202 "standard" came about only because modems for it were
already obsolete (and therefore widely available at low prices) when the
Canadians started experimenting with packet radio ten years ago. There's
really very little that can be said in its favor except that everybody
already has it. It's shamefully wasteful of both bandwidth and power.

It makes sense in many radio applications to spend bandwidth for power, and
this is true for analog as well as digital systems. (FM is an example of an
analog bandwidth-for-power tradeoff scheme.) On HF there is another
consideration as well, namely multipath.

The moral is that you can't pick up a technology (like telephone modems) and
expect them to work well in another, entirely different environment (like
amateur packet radio channels).

Phil

From packet-radio-relay  Sat Mar 31 09:08:48 1990
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Date: 30 Mar 90 13:48:12 GMT
From: csusac!csuchico.edu!petunia!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!peregrine!ccicpg!cci632![e-mail]  (David Hallidy)
Organization: Computer Consoles Inc. An STC Company, Rochester NY
Subject: Re: stacking yagis
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Juha Nurmela) writes:
> yanaa:
>
> I've got two 70 cm yagis and i wonder what would be
> the best stacking distance, with maximum gain in mind.
>
> The antennae (:-)) are made according to the schema
> in ARRL antenna book:
>  70 cm, 15 elements each, boom len about 3 meters.
>
>
> Thanks for any advice,
>
> juha nurmela, oh5nxo, [e-mail]


According to the ARRL Handbook (which may or may not be the best
source of this info), optimum spacing between long yagis is one
wavelength- this would be the position for maximum gain. Closer
spacing results in less net stacking gain, but a cleaner pattern.

According to the 22nd edition of the Radio Handbook by Bill Orr,
W6SAI (which may or may not be the best source of this info- where
did I just hear that? :^)), "...as a simple rule of thumb in stacking
extended Yagi antennas, or other arrays having high gain, it is
suggested that stacking distance be equal to 3/4 of the length of
the antenna."

The numbers I have personally seen for stacking 432 antennas, seem
mostly to run in the 60 inch range, for antennas such as the
Cushcraft 424B which has about a 17 foot boom. This suggests a
compromise between the previously mentioned references,
and it may be that the gain degradation by spacing closer may not
be as much of a loss as the pattern degradation by spacing them
wider.

Bottom line, I'd start with about 60 inch spacing, I bet you'll
be close to optimum. If your station setup allows, you can play
with the spacing while measuring Sun noise when the Sun is just
clear of your horizon. If you can't do that, just space them 60
inches apart and leave it- it'll be real close.



Hope this helps some.

73 Dave KD5RO/2

From packet-radio-relay  Sat Mar 31 09:09:00 1990
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Date: 31 Mar 90 05:08:43 GMT
From: bu.edu!xylogics!transfer!lectroid!jjmhome!cpoint![e-mail]  (David I. Emery)
Organization: Clearpoint Research Corp., Hopkinton Mass.
Subject: Re: Packet(?) on commercial bands
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dennis S. Breckenridge) writes:
>What you are hearing is "commercial packet" It is in MMP protocol. Even
>if you could capture the bits with your TNC you would spend the next
>three lifetimes decoding the packet. Security is top on the list when
>it comes to public safety. MMP is a proprietary Mobile Data International
>protocol.
>
    I hate to burst your bubble, but I know of a fellow radio hacker
who has been successfully copying mobile data terminal traffic in this
and several other so called "secure" proprietary protocols.  He uses
modified commercial trunking capable radios with their built in FSK
demods to receive the bits and a combination of a stand alone micro and
an IBM PC clone to interpret the messages contained therin.

    He says most of the bits are used for various forward error
correction and parity schemes.  Encryption seems mostly to mean using
proprietary alphabets (substitution cipher), overlaying the message with
a LFSR sequence (scrambling, such as used on many modems), and XORing
the underlying message or sometimes the encoded data after adding the
FEC bits with a fixed multibyte pattern that is changed from time to
time.  (For example he says IBM field service transmissions to their
portable terminals seem to use a 4 byte sequence changed every day and
different for each terminal)

    I do not believe that aside from Motorola's line of DES based
DVP products (which really do use DES in a quite strong mode) most
two way radio security is very secure.  I personally think it
pretty inexcusable for the manufacturers of these devices not to
use DES or some moral equivalent - merely deciding that the protocol
is complicated and nobody out there is bright enough to figure
it out is pretty stupid in my opinion....

    Of course the fellow who broke these mobile data systems was
trained by the military as a cryptanalyst twenty years ago, so perhaps
that isn't completely fair.  But there are people who do this sort of
protocol software work for a living who wouldn't find it hard either.



--
    David I. Emery   Clearpoint Research Corp.
    35 Parkwood Dr, Hopkinton Ma. 01748  1-508-435-7462
    {decvax, cybvax0, mirror}!frog!cpoint!die
    {m2c}!jjmhome!cpoint!die,   Internet: [e-mail]

From packet-radio-relay  Sat Mar 31 10:06:19 1990
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Date: 31 Mar 90 17:00:58 GMT
From: van-bc!ubc-cs!nebulus![e-mail]  (Dennis S. Breckenridge)
Organization: Alchemy Mindworks, Vancouver, Canada
Subject: Re: HF packet modems...
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bill Meahan) writes:
> Given that packet uses modem signalling derived from telephone applications,
> it would seem appropriate to 'upgrade' the packet modem standards to match
> what the landline types do.  Would the FCC object to PEP or V.32 operation
> to get higher BPS rates given that these encoding schemes do not take up any
> more bandwidth than a voice channel?  Anybody working on it?

There really is two ways of dealing with this. I would like to investigate
the success of a Telebit or a Microcom AX9624 on HF. According to the regs
I must maintain 3khz bandwith. The Communications Canada folks out here
seem to encourage experimentation. I would like to try it out on 10 or 20
meters and if that works lets set up some real high speed long distance
links. One of the downsides is that the TB works like a spread spectrum
audio channel, I don't know whats going to happen with fading etc...
This is one of the ideas. The Ham club I work with invented commercial
packet (I work at MDI) and they have tons of expirience with all kinds of
RF/PACKET problems. They just laugh at me and say HF PACKET is like working
with DC compared to what they are playing with now. Now all I have to
do is convince the "brass pounders" to have a serious look at Wide Area
networking on HF. I have been working with VE6BBM on a new and improved
protocol that would allow the use of standard tools. I will keep this
group posted as to whats new here.
73's

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dennis S. Breckenridge  [phone]   [e-mail]           VE7TCP
           EMACS: Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From packet-radio-relay  Sat Mar 31 22:27:35 1990
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Date: Sat, 31 Mar 90 10:32:15 CST
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Pat Davis, Wis AMPR IP Address Coord.)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: Bmailer "going blank".


>I have also have found what I beleive is a bug.  If the user selects f #
>to forward a message, it seems to forward ok.  However after that access to
>all of the messages in that folder screw up.   Using h will still
>list headers, but they are all blank!  Using the message number or . to
>list the text of a message just produces a few blank lines.  It doesn't just
>affect the forwarded message it gets them all.


One thing that seems to cause this is running out of RAM..  Do not run BM
in a SHELL of NET, for instance..  Now, you say "how much RAM does BM
require"?  I don't know.. It seems like that depends on how BIG your mail
file itself is..  Suffice it to say that I have lost my share of mail via
BM..  This has usually been MY fault.. I now use a Desqview script to
invoke Bmailer.. The script copies the entire PAT.txt file to "txt.pat"
before attempting to run BM..  Then my mail is safe and sound should I need
a copy of it..  The locals used to give BM about 225K in Desqview.  That
seemed alright for a while, but if I left my mailfile unpurged, it got big
and seemed to loose it's headers..  The moral of this story is:

Be wasteful of your memory, give BM a wide swath.. And/or consider trying
VIEW, by Mark Bramwell.  VIEW is a mailer which allows you to use Buerg's
FAMOUS "LIST.COM" to read your mail.. SLICK!  look for view on :
HAMSTER.business.uwo.ca 129.100.22.100  in \view..   (use type I) and GET
allfiles.arc.. I still use BM for certain things (Sorry Mark), but VIEW
also has a permanent spot on MY hard-disk!

A few more VIEW features:

- it has a SIGNATURE file, so you can get PACKET RADIO people MAD at you
for having wasteful "cute" signatures on the ends of you messages.. REally,
don't use this feature to waste 1200B AMPR bandwidth!!!

-Let's you REPLY with >'d text..  So and So writes: >blah blah blah (MH7
:-)...

- has an uidigestify command for DIGESTS.

- can call other programs like LIST, QEDIT  AND, has an add-on manager..

Hey, I'd better stop, Mark's head is probably getting big :-)..

DE:  Pat, KD9UU