Hacker Chronicles 2 (Alt)/The_Hacker_Chronicles_Volume_II-CD2.iso/cud5/cud520b.txt

Internet Message Format | 1995-01-03 | 31.4 KB

Date: 07 Mar 93 18:00:55 EST
From: Gordon Meyer <[e-mail]>
Subject: File 2--On-Line GEnie Interview with Bruce Sterling

GEnie talks with Bruce Sterling:
This file comes from the Science Fiction and Fantasy RoundTable
(SFRT, page 470) on GEnie, and is Copyright (c) 1992 by GEnie.

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21:30EST   11/09/92


<[Host] THE.HAMMER> The GEnie clock says that it's 9:30 ET, so
we'll start now.

** <[Host] THE.HAMMER> Room is now listen-only.

Room is now in listen-only mode.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Our RTC guest tonight is Bruce Sterling, author
of the
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> novels INVOLUTION OCEAN, THE ARTIFICIAL KID,
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> SCHISMATRIX, and ISLANDS IN THE NET, editor of
the
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> cyberpunk anthology MIRRORSHADES, co-author
with
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> William "NEUROMANCER" Gibson of THE DIFFERENCE
ENGINE,
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> and now the author of the non-fiction work THE
HACKER
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> CRACKDOWN. Welcome, Bruce.

<[Guest] BRUCES> What a pleasure to see all those titles spelled
correctly *8-)

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Bruce's new book is concerned with questions
about the new
electronic frontier.

<[Guest] BRUCES> Now if we could only PRONOUNCE them *8-/

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Do a /rai if you have a question for Bruce, and
I will call
on you.
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Bruce, I'll lead off. Your book is called THE
HACKER
CRACKDOWN. How do you define "hacker"?

<[Guest] BRUCES> Whoops.. oh dear, my fingertips have fallen off...
no, false
alarm.  Do ask anything, people, don't be shy.
<[Guest] BRUCES> How do I define hacker.  Well, there was the good
ol' 60s
definition, and then there's the rather more sinister 90s
definition.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> What are they?

<[Guest] BRUCES> Generally I go with the cop definition, since it's
the one in
greater public usage, meaning a computer trespasser.
<[Guest] BRUCES> When you see 'hacker' in headlines it invariably
means
somebody who's committed sillicitly.
<[Guest] BRUCES> Wow!  I mean someone who'se committed computer
abuse and
invaded
<[Guest] BRUCES> a system illicitly.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Okay, we have a question from DANTECH...

<[Katie] DANTECH> I wonder if you think there's any way we can
reclaim the term?
<[Katie] DANTECH> I was a programmer, and to me it was a term of
praise, a
gonzo programmer who could get into the code and really make it sit
up and
beg...
<[Katie] DANTECH> I get upset with the other definition.  it takes
a hacker to
be a hacker in the new sense, but not all hackers do that sort of
thing.  if
you follow me.  ;->  anyway, does your book emphasize the
difference?

<[Guest] BRUCES> Reclaim the term "hacker?"  Sure.  About the same
time that I
reclaim the term "cyberpunk."  Ha ha ha ha!
<[Guest] BRUCES> My book does make the distinction between "hacker"
in its
better sense and
the system-cracking hacker, but I'm afraid it's a losing battle.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Katie, a followup?

<[Katie] DANTECH> I'm hoping we get to GURPS later, but that's it
for now.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Okay.
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> P.RETZBACH is next...

<[Pete] P.RETZBACH> hi ... I want to ask about this stuff I hear
about al gore
and the "network america" ... can you comment??

<[Guest] BRUCES> Comment on Al?  Sure!  Let me state publicly that
I'm taking
complete gloating glee at the prospect of Souther Yuppie Reptiles
in Power!
<[Guest] BRUCES> But more seriously -- yes, NREN is clearly a very
big deal and
I for one have high hopes for it.
<[Guest] BRUCES> I think it's very encouraging that we now have a
highly placed
federal official with a firm grasp on modern telecommunications.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Follow-up, Pete?

<[Pete] P.RETZBACH> yes ...
<[Pete] P.RETZBACH> so you really believe it's not too early or
ambitious??

<[Guest] BRUCES> What if it is?  I don't see what we have to lose.
A few
billion?  So what?
<[Guest] BRUCES> "Information superhighways" sounds like a swell
notion to me.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Next up is B.LUHMAN.

<[King Arthur] B.LUHMAN> What if any is the difference between
Hackers and
Phreakers? (not sure spelling)

<[Guest] BRUCES> Well, "phreaks" are mostly into telephone
manipulation while
"hackers' crack systems, but that is a harder distinction to make
now
<[Guest] BRUCES> that the telphone system is becoming digitalized.
<[Guest] BRUCES> "Phreaks" tend to be into petty theft-of-service
more than
hackers, too.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Follow-up?

<[King Arthur] B.LUHMAN> yes.. which is easier to get caught?

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Can you repeat that? It was garbled.

<[King Arthur] B.LUHMAN> yes.. which is easier to get caught?

<[Guest] BRUCES> Oh....  Well, that depends on what kind of crime
you're
committing and how openly you brag about it.

<[King Arthur] B.LUHMAN> ic thnx!

<[Guest] BRUCES> It also depends on who the local cops are and if
they're hip
to telecomm

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Next up is Martha Soukup, SFRT assistant
sysop....

<[Martha] SFWA-SOUKUP> I think you should introduce "sillicitly"
into the
language.  Noun.  Anyway....
<[Martha] SFWA-SOUKUP> Of the people you met researching the book,
who was, or
were, the most fun
<[Martha] SFWA-SOUKUP> to hang out with?

<[Guest] BRUCES> Oh, Kapor and Barlow, no question.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Follow-up?

<[Martha] SFWA-SOUKUP> Howcum?

<[Guest] BRUCES> John Perry Barlow is the heaviest dude I know!

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Second follow-up, Martha?

<[Martha] SFWA-SOUKUP> Maybe you could elaborate?  (Or does
everyone need to
buy the book?  <g>)

<[Guest] BRUCES> Cops are always a bit menacing; hackers hard to
trust.
<[Guest] BRUCES> But millionaires and Grateful Dead lyricists have
their own
odd kind of charm, believe me,
<[Guest] BRUCES> It's a little hard to describe charisma.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Next up is Mike Whalen....

<[MIKE] M.WHALEN5> Hi, Bruce.

<[Guest] BRUCES> Yo.

<[MIKE] M.WHALEN5> I finished you book just this weekend.. great
read. I wanted
to ask you...
<[MIKE] M.WHALEN5> I have been on BBSs here in New Orleans since
1984 and I can
remember a prominent Hacker/Cracker/Phreaker scene.. but this seems
to have
died in recent years.. would you feel this is true of the whole
scene?

<[Guest] BRUCES> Well, I think the scene has changed its character.
But the
digital underground definitely exists, believe me.
<[Guest] BRUCES> I could upload some proof if you're interested.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Follow-up?

<[MIKE] M.WHALEN5> Oh.. I do know it exists. Proof? What do you
mean by Proof?
;)

<[Guest] BRUCES> There's a big hacker convention coming up in
Houston nemy hard
disk.

<[MIKE] M.WHALEN5> I am not doubting you. Btw, I could not finish
the 911
document. Thanks, Bruce.

<[Guest] BRUCES> I gotta learn to stop doing that *8-(
<[Guest] BRUCES> Anyway, there were a lot of Norleans people at
this
hacker con last year.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> A brief announcement:
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> There is a contest in this RTC tonight,
sponsored by
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Bantam Books and GEnie. The first three people
to
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> correctly answer a trivia question later in the
RTC
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> will win free autographed copies of THE HACKER
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> CRACKDOWN.
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Next up is Pete Retzbach again...

<[Guest] BRUCES> Unless my wrists fall off *8-(

<[Pete] P.RETZBACH> did the feds REALLY believe Steve Jackson was
publishing a hacker manual??

<[Guest] BRUCES> I don't think they did, but I think they were
anxious
for a convenient excuse.
<[Guest] BRUCES> I think the USSS realized immediately that they'd
blown
it, but they hoped the whole thing would remain completely obscure.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Follow-up?

<[Pete] P.RETZBACH> thank you

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Next up is Kate Daniel again...

<[Katie] DANTECH> How do you mean, "an excuse"?  what else did they
want
to nail him for?
<[Katie] DANTECH> And, my main question, how is Kapor's group
doing?

<[Guest] BRUCES> I think they had his gaming bulletin-board,
"Illuminati," figured for a very serious Legion of Doom hangout.
<[Guest] BRUCES> They thought it would be full of hot passwords and
such.

<[Katie] DANTECH> government paranoia?

<[Guest] BRUCES> Kapor's group is "an insurrection trying to become
an
institution."
<[Guest] BRUCES> Not paranoia.  Just a mistake.  The problem came
in
trying to brazen out their blunder.  If they'd just handed it back
and
apologized...
<[Guest] BRUCES> Jackson would not have beat the drums so loudly.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Follow-ups?

<[Katie] DANTECH> the question on paranoia was all.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Next up is Gary Frazier...

<[GaryF] G.FRAZIER3> Bruce, do you think that the law enforcement
community has the technical skills to deal with hacking's negative
aspects?

<[Guest] BRUCES> No, they don't; but then again, neither does
anybody
else!

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Follow-up?

<[GaryF] G.FRAZIER3> Are they flailing around, trying to give the
impression that they're DOING SOMETHING?

<[Guest] BRUCES> Things have been quiet for some months.  However
now
that the Presidential campaigns are over...
<[Guest] BRUCES> I very much expect to see the US Secret Service
get
into the electronic
<[Guest] BRUCES> fray once again and with renewed vigor.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Any follow-up, Gary?

<[GaryF] G.FRAZIER3> Nope. Thanks, Bruce!

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Next up is Tom Weber

<[Tom] T.WEBER7> Is the "any unlocked door is an invitation"
morality
prevalent among the young hackers you've encountered, or has that
been
exaggerated by the media?  Is most hacking politically motivated,
or just for
kicks and personal gain?

<[Guest] BRUCES> Kicks.  Prurience.  Ego-tripping.  Role-playing.
Neurosis.  Intellectual curiosity.  Lack of other outlets.  Teenage
high
spirits...
<[Guest] BRUCES> The "unlocked door" rap still gets a lot of play
in
hacker circles, but I've always found it kind of hard to take
seriously.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Follow-up, Tom?

<[Tom] T.WEBER7> Are there any serious politically subversive
groups
hacking around?

<[Guest] BRUCES> Well, that depends on what you mean by "serious,"
Tom.
 I think EFF is pretty "serious," and so are CPSR and ACLU, but
they're not
teenagers

<[Guest] BRUCES> and they're not generally perceived as "hackers."
<[Guest] BRUCES> Or as "subversive," for that matter -- which is
probably their greatest strength.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Next up is Susan Shwartz...

<[Susan] S.SHWARTZ> As I understand it, Kapor's group is designed
to
protect people like Steve Jackson.  What sort of success is it
having?
How would it answer (possible) charges that it's soft on the wrong
sort of
hacking--or would it?

<[Guest] BRUCES> Well, anybody can make the "hacksymp" charge.  It
doesn't seem to carry much oomph though.  I'm surprised at the
public support
for
<[Guest] BRUCES> computer intrusion kids.  The populace is very
cynical
these days.  Big telephone companies and groups like FBI, Umuch of
a
sympathetic hearing.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Follow-up?

<[Susan] S.SHWARTZ> Yes, please.  I have a subversive fondness for
this
sort of thing, too.  But what's the group's basis in law?  First
Amendment?
Unfair search and seizure?  Privacy?

<[Guest] BRUCES> Fourth Amendment, First Amendment,
<[Guest] BRUCES> privacy legislation, anti wiretapping legislation.
<[Guest] BRUCES> Electronic Communications Privacy Act, too.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Next up is Mike Whalen again.

<[Guest] BRUCES> And let's not underestimate $$$$$$$$$$

<[MIKE] M.WHALEN5> Hey, again. What do you feel the public's
CURRENT
perception of CyberSpace is. Is it becoming MORE friendly? Or has
the term
Cyberspace and renewed Hacker media scared more people away?

<[Guest] BRUCES> I think people are less terrified of "hacking"
these
days and more and more frightened by "viruses."  Viruses probably
ARE a worse
threat.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Follow-up?

<[MIKE] M.WHALEN5> I guess the more hackers there are .. the more
viruses? That is the current.. misnomer? At least I feel it is.

<[Guest] BRUCES> The networks are growing steadily, especially the
Internet, so people aren't frightened by modems per se or
cyberspace as an
idea...

<[Guest] BRUCES> The thing that drives people nuts is the idea of
having
their hard-disks wiped by some idiot from Bulgaria and his PC
virus.
<[Guest] BRUCES> There's a pretty good book coming out from England
called "Approaching Zero" that has a lot of material on Bulgarian
virus-writing
crowd.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Next up is Kate Daniel again....

<[Katie] DANTECH> this is a complex one.  obvious lawbreakers, the
ones
who hack into corporate databases....
<[Katie] DANTECH> and mess up financial records and plant viruses,
they
are obviously of interest to the g'vment.  But do you think...
<[Katie] DANTECH> some areas of g'ment are afraid of the
non-illegal
areas of cyberspace, like GEnie?  think it's monitored?  and what
effect do you
think ....
<[Katie] DANTECH> the new administration's interest will have on
it?  ga

<[Guest] BRUCES> Well, there are plenty of things you can do on a
"legal" BBS or network that will catch a cop's attention....
<[Guest] BRUCES> fencing stolen property, planning crimes
(conspiracy),
pornography (especially CHILD pornography)...
<[Guest] BRUCES> swindles, thefts, libel, slander...
<[Guest] BRUCES> exchanging hot credit card numbers, exchanging
stolen
phone access numbers...
<[Guest] BRUCES> pirating and selling illicitly copied software...
<[Guest] BRUCES> giving advice on demolitions, brewing poisons, how
to
kill with a single blow of a blunt object...
<[Guest] BRUCES> advice on how to commit all manner of crimes and
disguise your activities afterward.  And so on.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Follow-up?

<[Katie] DANTECH> I'm more interested in open communications,
consensus
forming, and direct feedback to government.  do you think some
officials find
this form of open, fast communications threatening?

<[Guest] BRUCES> Did I forget plagiarism and theft of intellectual
property?

<[Katie] DANTECH> I was going to say we don't do those things on
GEnie,
but I *have* taken part in discussions on killing people.  but I
write murders.
 <g>

<[Guest] BRUCES> You'll be grinning out of the other side of your
modem
if you ever become involved in an actual murder investigation,
DANTECH.

<[Katie] DANTECH> seriously?

<[Guest] BRUCES> Depends on how CLOSELY involved you are.
<[Guest] BRUCES> And if somebody examines your hard-disk.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Next up is Martha Soukup again....

<[Martha] SFWA-SOUKUP> In your (very funny) story, "Are You for
86?",
you have a religious pro-life group using computer hacking as one
of their
strategies.  Do you think that, in real life, the radical right
will catch up
to the radical left in that area?  And are radical political groups
getting
anywhere with hackery?  (hacking, whatever)

<[Guest] BRUCES> Well, there have been Nazi bulletin boards in the
US
for a long time, and when it comes to satellite comm have been into
it for a
long time.
<[Guest] BRUCES> I don't think the radical right has much "catching
up"
to do.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Follow-up?

<[Martha] SFWA-SOUKUP> How annoying are these groups, really, to
the
government?

<[Guest] BRUCES> If they've got guns, they're plenty bothersome.
And if
they ever threaten the life of the President...
<[Guest] BRUCES> You can bet that the USSS will be taking a
prolonged
and detailed interest in them and their activities.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Second follow-up?

<[Martha] SFWA-SOUKUP> And if they're just cracking &c?

<[Guest] BRUCES> Mostly they're riddled with federal informants,
though...
<[Guest] BRUCES> So their chances of getting anywhere militarily
are
pretty limited...
<[Guest] BRUCES> and the informant business goes in spades for the
little teenage hacker groups...
<[Guest] BRUCES> They just spill their guts immediately when
apprehended.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Next up is Denny again....

<[Denny] DENNYA> Bruce, as technology gets more and more advanced,
do
you think hacking will become more difficult? Or more devastating?
(Will more
powerful computers and algorithms benefit the hacker or hackee?)

<[Guest] BRUCES> I don't think hacking amounts to much.  I'd worry
more
about the effects
<[Guest] BRUCES> of these new and more powerful technologies for
those
who own them.
<[Guest] BRUCES> Those who use them all day every day.
Corporations and
governments.
<[Guest] BRUCES> It's silly to worry too much about teenagers.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Follow-up?

<[Denny] DENNYA> ga

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Next up is Cathy Hampton....

<ARIEL> I'd like to follow up on Gary Frazier's question.  Assuming
that no one has the technical skill to enforce the law on-line, and
assuming
the Feds asked you to come up with a means to develop and teach
this, how would
you accomplish this?  (Assuming you didn't run for dear life, that
is. :> )

<[Guest] BRUCES> Change the law so as to make it more easily
enforceable.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Follow-up?

<ARIEL> Absolutely.  What changes would you make, then?  One or two
examples would be fine -- I know you don't have enough time before
Christmas to
answer it all. :>

<[Guest] BRUCES> I think I'd make computer-intrusion a misdemeanor
at
worst and I'
<[Guest] BRUCES> d devote my efforts..
<[Guest] BRUCES> to tracking down people who commit
telecommunications
fraud and other..
<[Guest] BRUCES> activities that can earn a criminal a dishonest
living...
<[Guest] BRUCES> crime won't really flourish until somebody can
make
plenty of folding money out of it...
<[Guest] BRUCES> If you see that ethos come into hacking it will be
the
equivalent of
<[Guest] BRUCES> crack cocaine entering the drug scene...
<[Guest] BRUCES> in which case you will start seeing a lot more
violence
and a lot more open greed...
<[Guest] BRUCES> and the situation may deteriorate pretty badly.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Next up is Sarah Collier....

<SARAH-C> Going back a bit, isn't there a proposed amendment to
extend
the 1st and 4th to electronic media?

<[Guest] BRUCES> Yeah, that;s the Laurence Tribe proposal...  word
says
Professor Tribe
<[Guest] BRUCES> may have a shot at a Clinton/Gore Supreme Court
post.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Follow-up?

<SARAH-C> What do you figure its chances of passage are?

<[Guest] BRUCES> It's not a bill in Congress, it's just a
suggestion for
a Constitutional amendment, which nobody has formally attempted to
pass.

<[Guest] BRUCES> The EFF offers the text of the speech in which
Prof
Tribe floats this idea of his.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Next up is Gary Frazier....

<[GaryF] G.FRAZIER3> Recently, DATELINE NBC did one of the standard
media scare stories about hacking that one often sees. Is the media
just
ignorant of the technology, or so lazy as to simply echo the
hysteria of law
enforcement?

<[Guest] BRUCES> I saw that.  One of those hacker kids on NBC was
"Urvile," one of my najor informants for the book.

<[Guest] BRUCES> "Urvile" is a scary customer in a lot of ways.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Follow-up?

<[GaryF] G.FRAZIER3> Why is he so scary? Can you tell us more about
him?

<[Guest] BRUCES> Well, I don't want to libel the young gentleman or
anything, but
<[Guest] BRUCES> frankly he didn't seem to me to have much of
anything
in the way of qualms.
<[Guest] BRUCES> When that's combined with considerable technical
skill
it tends to be a bit disquieting.  The guy shows a little too much
rigidity of
the eyeball. No offense, Adam *8-/

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Second follow-up?

<[GaryF] G.FRAZIER3> That is pretty frightening. Do you think the
media
sensationalizes hacking out
<[GaryF] G.FRAZIER3> of ignorance of the technology? Do they
really understand what's going on?

<[Guest] BRUCES> I think they sensationalize it because
sensation gets ratings, dude.
<[Guest] BRUCES> No, they don't understand, but they know
good press when they see it.
<[Guest] BRUCES> NOBODY understands "what's going on."

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Next up is Susan Shwartz again....

<[Susan] S.SHWARTZ> I'm interested in the genesis of your
thought on these subjects.  How'd you become interested in the
entire cyber-areas--and how'd your fiction segue into this
nonfiction book?  Did the fiction affect your sources, including
Urvile?

<[Guest] BRUCES> I got involved because federal police raided a
publisher in my home town and blamed him for writing a book called
"Cyberpunk."
<[Guest] BRUCES> I didn't think I needed to wait for an engraved
invitation to take an interest.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Follow-up, Susan?

<[Susan] S.SHWARTZ> Yes.  Would that have preceded your fiction?
Specifically, I was interested in the evolution of your thought as
it related
to your fiction?  Did you find it gave you credibility among your
sources?

<[Guest] BRUCES> Oh.  That.  Yeah.  Yes, they all knew who I was.
So
did a lot of the cops *8-(

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Second follow-up?

<[Susan] S.SHWARTZ> Last bit of one.  In the litcritters' world,
it's
easy to see certain books as seminal.  Still, when Robert Morris's
father gives
him SHOCKWAVE RIDER to read, it's hard to dismiss it.  Do you
consider that
book important at all -- in your work, the development of
cybernetic
communities, hackers, etc.?

<[Guest] BRUCES> Well, yeah, but nowhere near so "important" as the
movie WAR GAMES in 1983.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Ready for the trivia contest?
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Get ready on the /sen keys then.
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Here comes the trivia contest question with
three
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> autographed copies of THE HACKER CRACKDOWN as
the
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> prize. The first three correct answers to the
trivia
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> question that are /sent to me will win! (No
public
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> answers, please!)
<[Host] THE.HAMMER>
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Ready?
<[Host] THE.HAMMER>
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> The trivia question is: What is the name of the
second
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> novel by the man who co-authored THE DIFFERENCE
ENGINE
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> with Bruce?

<[Guest] BRUCES> The Miracle Worker!!!

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> We have ONE winner.

<[Guest] BRUCES> Oh sorry that was the other WG

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> The question was the name of the second novel
by
Bruce's co-author, not the name of the co-author.
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> TWO winners.
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> THREE WINNERS!
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> The winners are Tom Weber, who knew it
instantly,
Martha Soukup, and Kate Daniel.
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Congratulations. E-mail me your address,
please.
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Next up is Mike Whalen again....

<[MIKE] M.WHALEN5> I want to ask you about the future of
CyberSpace. MY
vision is something like the Apple Newton which is affordable.. and
constantly
hooked up through satellite link to a network (much like InterNet).
What is
your vision?

<[Guest] BRUCES> I just fielded a phone call from Katie Hafner,
co-author of CYBERPUNKS OUTLAWS AND HACKERS ON THE COMPUTER
FRONTIER!
<[Guest] BRUCES> Good booK!
<[Guest] BRUCES> Oh, my vision, eh? COMPUTER AS FUROSHIKI
<[Guest] BRUCES>
<[Guest] BRUCES> "Computer as furoshiki" is a highly speculative
vision
of the personal computer as it might evolve if freed from certain
current
material constraints.
<[Guest] BRUCES> The furoshiki is an intimate and ubiquitous
accessory
to Japanese daily life.  It's nothing more than a large square of
tough,
well-made cloth, usually with a handsome pattern.  The furoshiki is
used, among
other purposes, as a grocery bag, a book-tote, and a decorative
wrapper for
ceremonial gifts.  In its  simplicity and multiple uses it is
little different
from a cowboy's bandanna, except that the skill in wrapping and
knotting
furoshikis is more arcane.
<[Guest] BRUCES> The computer-as-furoshiki is the computer as a
large
square of lightweight, flexible cloth.  It is not, however, "cloth"
as that
material is currently understood.
<[Guest] BRUCES> The furoshiki's display screen is formed by thin
bands
of color-emitting optical fibers, which are wide enough and bright
enough to
mimic the scan-lines of a video display terminal.  These
display-fibers are
interwoven with other fiber-optics carrying data.
<[Guest] BRUCES> A second kind of fiber is densely interwoven; it
consists of room-temperature superconductive wire, possibly a novel
form of
buckminsterfullerene for strength and flexibility.  This
highly-charged net of
superconductors serves as a literal power-grid.
<[Guest] BRUCES> The third fiber is some currently-unknown form of
piezoelectric filament that can contract, relax, and therefore warp
and knot
itself in response to precise electrical charges deployed along its
length.
<[Guest] BRUCES> A fourth form of fiber serves as a radio antenna
and
communications grid.
<[Guest] BRUCES> One section of the cloth can be radically
stiffened to
serve as the diaphragm for an audio speaker.
<[Guest] BRUCES> Computation, memory, and movement are carried out
by
photonic, photoelectronic, and electronic chips composed of
custom-built
artificial diamond for low cost and strength.  If the tensile
fibers are
composed of organic proteins (which would seem likely), then the
computer-as-furoshiki consists mostly of carbon.
<[Guest] BRUCES> The device is operated with voice commands and
touch,
and possibly gesture, through a similarly woven linked glove.
<[Guest] BRUCES> The computer-as-furoshiki is capable of limited
movement.  Early versions might fold themselves up like a
gentleman's
handkerchief; later models would resemble aluminum foil or Saran
Wrap.
Advanced versions can fly.
<[Guest] BRUCES> Although this computer lacks direct video input,
it
might be capable of optical character recognition if placed on a
page, or of
image-scanning if placed on a graphic.
<[Guest] BRUCES> When placed on light-sensitive paper, or film, it
generates hard-copies.  This computer might displace paper as a
medium by
usurping not merely the information of paper but the physical
properties of
paper as well.
<[Guest] BRUCES> When one's head is wrapped completely in the
furoshiki,
it becomes a virtual-reality rig.
<[Guest] BRUCES> When not in use, the furoshiki is worn, as a
scarf,
tie, turban, or, or course, the Console Cowboy's bandanna.
Mainframes can be
used as pup-tents, supercomputers as Big Tops, for a late
twenty-first-century
multimedia circus.
<[Guest] BRUCES> Boy, that was hard typing!  Gotta wait for my
knuckles
to stop smoking... *8-)
<[Guest] BRUCES> GA

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Follow-up?

<[MIKE] M.WHALEN5> More or less, everyone would have their own
personal
mailbox. They can read/send mail.. subscribe to newsgroups.. get
news through
things LIKE ClariNet. What do you think?

<[Guest] BRUCES> *I* think you need a lot of good editors *8-)
<[Guest] BRUCES> Otherwise you'll drown like rats in the data
firehose.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> LOL. Next up is Kate Daniel again...

<[Katie] DANTECH> Could you give us a thumbnail profile of the
typical
"hacker", in the media sense, today?  somehow I'm not sure it's
still
over-bright teens...
<[Katie] DANTECH> and which types of targets are they after?

<[Guest] BRUCES> Male 15-22, unmarried, time on his hands, may be
mathematically gifted.  Parents commonly divorced.  Usually white.
Commonly
has no othecriminal record, though that's changing.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Follow-up?

<[Katie] DANTECH> why teens, primarily?

<[Guest] BRUCES> Targets are the easy ones first: universities and
hospitals.  May work his way up to Internet sites and telephone
switching
stations.
<[Guest] BRUCES> Same profile as other kinds of trespassing and
voyeurism offenders.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Next up is Martha Soukup again....

<[Martha] SFWA-SOUKUP> Bruce, are you working on any fiction
projects
now?
<[Martha] SFWA-SOUKUP> And would you like to plug your collection
GLOBALHEAD (a Mark Ziesing book)?

<[Guest] BRUCES> I wish, Martha.  At the moment, as you can see,
I'm
blowing yet more time hanging out on computer networks *8-/

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Follow-up?

<[Martha] SFWA-SOUKUP> When will GLOBALHEAD be out in mass-market?
<[Martha] SFWA-SOUKUP> (Not that it's not worth buying in
hardcover, as
I did, of course.)

<[Guest] BRUCES> Oh, quite some time.  they want to do the
paperback of
my next novel first.  Which is unwritten.
<[Guest] BRUCES> Maybe I'll talk 'em into changing their minds.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> And our last question comes from Mike Whalen
once
again...

<[MIKE] M.WHALEN5> Could you talk a bit more about this "tour" you
are
on? Someone mentioned that you are going to be traversing BBSs and
such. How
are you going to do this? Where are you going?

<[Guest] BRUCES> Oh, I've been on CompuServe, Delphi...  actually,
my
home system is
<[Guest] BRUCES> the WELL  ([e-mail]) where I hang out
in
the MONDO 2000
<[Guest] BRUCES> conference with all the other cyberpunk wierdos
among
whom I feel
<[Guest] BRUCES> most at home.
<[Guest] BRUCES> I also give away text on Macintosh floppy disks.
Sneakernet!

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Follow-up?

<[MIKE] M.WHALEN5> The Well is one of those Pay-pay-pay systems,
eh?

<[Guest] BRUCES> Well, you can telnet in and get stuff off it,
pretty
soon.
<[Guest] BRUCES> I don't mind paying because it's such a pleasure
to see
hippies making their own way in the world for once *8-/

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> And Bruce's AGITPROP disk is also available in
IBM
format. (I know; I have one.) Bruce, care to make some parting
comments about
the AGITPROP diskette?

<[Guest] BRUCES> This removes the primary legitimation for
co,mputer
intrusion.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> How so?

<[Guest] BRUCES> Yeah.  If you had to PAY for that disk, you got
RIPPED
OFF!!
<[Guest] BRUCES> "I had to break in to learn."

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Any parting comments about the book?

<[Guest] BRUCES> Yeah.  The book will also be released
electronically
for free reproduction, in about a year.  INFORMATION WANTS TO BE
FREE!!
<[Guest] BRUCES> But information will settle for being $1.75. *8-)

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> I may upload it to the SFRT library on
GEnie. Is that okay?
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> People would have to pay a small time charge to
download it.

<[Guest] BRUCES> That's okay.  Time charge is grudgingly accepted.

<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Thank you, Bruce.
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> THE HACKER CRACKDOWN, Bantam Books, ISBN
0-533-08058-X.
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Available at bookstores everywhere.
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Recommended.
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Buy a few for Christmas presents...<G>
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> The formal part of this conference is now over.
<[Host] THE.HAMMER> Thank you all for attending, and thank you,
Bruce.

** <[Host] THE.HAMMER> Room is now in the talk mode.

                              END

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