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Text Truncated. Only the first 1MB is shown below. Download the file for the complete contents. <html> <head> <BOOKINFO author="Warren Commission" publisher="rivertext.com" preparer="Brian Thomas" preparerURL="http://www.rivertext.com" prepareremail="brian@rivertext.com" sectionlabel="Section" chapterlabel="Witness" coverimage="i_jfk.gif"> <booktitle>JFK Witness</BOOKTITLE></bookinfo> </head> <body> <DIVISION1><DIVISION1TITLE><h2>Foreword</h2></DIVISION1TITLE> <img src="c_jfk.jpg"> Warren Commission Exhibit 354, aerial view of Dealey Plaza Once you've eliminated the impossible, the improbable that is left, no matter how unlikely, is the truth. — Sir Arthur Conan Doyle This book wants more than readers; it seeks co-researchers and co-authors. In this book I offer my fellow researchers more than 2,000 pages of unedited testimony from 37 key Warren Commission witnesses to the assassination of President Kennedy plus over 100 photographs of exhibits presented in those hearings. To assure a manageable but fair and unedited sampling of Warren Commission testimony, JFK Witness includes only witnesses to the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Much of the Warren Commission testimony was by associates of the accused assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, or the accused assassin's killer, Jack Ruby, or witnesses to Oswald's arrest, or witnesses to some activity other than the shots fired at President Kennedy. However, JFK Witness provides a broader view of the events surrounding the assassination than the narrowed focus suggests. The testimony of each of the selected witnesses is unedited and several of them were present at other key events in the death of JFK. This e-book includes witnesses to: an encounter with Oswald 90 seconds after the assassination, Oswald's getaway, Oswald's arrest at the Texas theater, the death of President Kennedy at Parkland Hospital, and President Kennedy's autopsy at Bethesda, Maryland. In order to hold the original JFK Witness — which was viewed on individual e-book pages — to a practical 2,000 pages, I still needed an impartial method of determining which assassination witnesses to include and which to exclude. I chose to include every assassination witness listed in the indices of what were at the time the two most famous published defenses of the Warren Report — Warren Commission lawyer David Belin's Final Disclosure, and Commission critic turned defender Jim Moore's Conspiracy of One. To these I added the assassination witnesses listed in two of the leading critiques of the Warren Report, Mark Lane's Rush to Judgment and David Lifton's Best Evidence. The witnesses are arranged in JFK Witness according to their location in Dealey Plaza during the assassination. The locations of these groups of witnesses and the position of the Presidential limousine are all labeled on Commission Exhibit 354. To see this crucial exhibit as it appears in the Warren Commission Report use the Notebook menu to open the notebook entitled "Exhibits" and scroll to Exhibit 354. This notebook indexes and displays all the Commission Exhibits referred to in this testimony. Alternately, to see a compact version of Exhibit 354 with labels that I have added that identify the key buildings and structures around Dealey Plaza, you can click on "Map," the first selection in both the "Exhibits" notebook and the "JFKtour" notebook. For an aerial view of the Plaza that instead of looking straight down provides a more three-dimensional view and on which the key Dealey Plaza structures were labeled by the Warren Commission see Exhibit 876 in the "Exhibits" notebook or click "Dealey Plaza" in the "JFKtour" notebook. JFK Witness begins with witnesses who rode in the Presidential motorcade (marked on Exhibit 354 by an arrow), moving outward, it continues with witnesses on and across the street from the grassy knoll (7 & 3), witnesses who had the best view of the book depository (A), witnesses on or below the triple underpass (6), witnesses from within the book depository (8). Finally, JFK Witness presents the witness in the railroad tower who saw what was going on behind the grassy knoll, to the left of (C), and who had the most all-encompassing view of the assassination scene. All this unedited impartiality sounds great, but 1,000 pages later, it's less than a great read. So I provide a quick and ruthless guided tour. The tour highlights key passages within the testimony that contradict the Warren Report's conclusion that a "lone nut" killed JFK in less than 6 seconds with 3 shots from a bolt-action rifle, and that one of those bullets wounded both JFK and Governor Connally. This "magic bullet," which supposedly smashed Connally's wrist as well as causing 5 other wounds, and yet emerged with hardly a scratch, is officially known as Exhibit 399. In comparison, Exhibit 856, a bullet which was only shot through the wrist of a cadaver, shows far greater damage. The simplicity of the Commission's "single-bullet theory" is demonstrated by Commission lawyer Arlen Specter in Exhibit 903. However, anyone who takes the tour will realize that all the witnesses closest to the assassination saw something very different. The "single-bullet diagram" in the "JFKtour" notebook sums up the complex facts that slice up this simple theory. To take my tour select "Open Notebook" from the Notebook menu and find the notebook, "JFKtour" located in the same folder as this e-book. To create and distribute a new notebook with a different slant select "New Notebook" from the Notebook menu. Your notebooks can be saved separately from JFK Witness, uploaded to the internet and imported into other copies of this e-book. Another impressive feature of this Expanded Book is its "Find in Context" search feature. Choose "Search Whole Book" from the Edit menu and type in a search string. JFK Witness will create an interactive list of every occurrence of your search word and the phrase in which it occurs. Just click on a phrase to go to that section of the text. JFK Witness does not claim to carry the accounts of the thirty-seven most important witnesses to the JFK assassination, but only the thirty-seven most important witnesses called to testify before the Warren Commission. All of the Warren Commission critics believe that shots were fired at the Presidential car from more than one location around Dealey Plaza. The Warren Commission favored witnesses in or near the book depository over witnesses on the grassy knoll, from which many critics think the fatal shot was fired. The Committee spent hours reconstructing and photographing the movements of all three of the book depository employees who watched the assassination from the floor below the sixth floor sniper's nest. Then they flew them to Washington D.C. to testify before the full committee. (The full testimony of all three of these witnesses is included in JFK Witness) Witnesses like Bill and Gayle Newman, who dove for cover on the grassy knoll when the shooting started, and who were interviewed on Dallas TV the day of the assassination, were never called to testify. Bill Newman told Jim Marrs, author of CROSSFIRE: At the time I was looking right at the President and I thought the shots were coming from directly behind us. I said, "That's it! Get on the ground!" Then Bill Newman and his family ducked. Emmet Hudson, the Dealey Plaza grounds keeper, was standing near the Newmans and also dove to the ground along with the two people standing next to him. Hudson testified to a Commission lawyer in Dallas that the shots "came from above and kind of behind." The Commission lawyer tries to get Hudson's words to mean "above and behind the Presidential limousine," which would indicate the sixth floor sniper's nest of the Texas School Book Depository. Although Hudson's testimony as it appears here in JFK Witness. is ambiguous, there is no ambiguity in the affidavit Hudson made on the day of the assassination: "The shots that I heard definitely came from behind and above me." The Warren Commission chose not to bring Abraham Zapruder, who took the famous home movie of the assassination, to Washington D.C. to testify before the full committee — they sent a lawyer to take his deposition. Zapruder clearly states that he believed that the shots came from the grassy knoll just behind him. His testimony appears in the Report to be an isolated impression because the testimony of his secretary, who stood beside him and who also believed the shots came from behind, was not taken. The testimony of AP photographer James Altgens, who took a famous picture of the assassination, was taken only after the New York Herald Tribune reprinted his picture during the Warren Commission hearings and asked why he had not been interviewed by the commission. Phil Willis, who along with Zapruder and Altgens took the most revealing pictures of the assassination, complained bitterly afterwards that his testimony was grossly distorted. He told Steve Grass, my JFK assassination researcher: A lawyer from Southern California there, Liebeler, interviewed me. There was a stenographer... All he wanted her to record was what he wanted me to say. I told him I was a deer hunter. I knew about trajectories and bullets. He said "I didn't ask you that." Hell, the windshield of the motorcycle cop to the rear was splattered with brains, in a direct line from the grassy knoll. Readers should also note the testimony of railroad employee S.M. Holland, who saw smoke emerge from the trees on the grassy knoll as the fatal shot was fired, appears as an isolated statement because fellow employees who could have collaborated his story were not asked to testify. Recently, hundreds of Americans have attended Jim Marrs' lectures on the assassination and have seen the puff of smoke on a film shot in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63 by NBC staff photographer Dave Weigman. The testimony of the most famous dissenting witness, Jean Hill, was taken only after she wrote to the Commission and demanded that they hear her story. Jean Hill was the closest witness to the assassination (outside of those in the Presidential limousine) and her testimony, which is presented here, is essential reading. If you read the full testimony, however, you'll come across a few amusing facts the assassination critics always leave out of their quotes. For example, she thought the Kennedys had a lap dog in the car with them like the one Zsa Zsa Gabor was fond of parading around. Reading source material such as this testimony demonstrates that the facts are not as clear and easy to assemble as either the Commission or the critics (like me) would like you to believe. There are problems with the Warren Commission's star witness, Howard Brennan, too. Brennan is the only witness who ever claimed to identify Oswald as the assassin. Unfortunately for the Committee, he claimed that he could not identify Oswald when interviewed by the police after the assassination. Later, in the endless testimony presented here, he claimed that he was afraid that if he did identify Oswald communist terrorists would wipe out his family. Warren Commission critics claim that a careful examination of the Zapruder film reveals that Brennan was not even looking up at the sniper's nest when the shots were fired. Sorting through such a sea of claims and counter claims is the normally the task of professional historians. However, the professional historians, like the professional politicians, have fled and left this field to citizens like you and me. Regardless of the Warren Commission's bias, I believe that readers who take my guided tour will quickly discover that the testimony of the Commission witnesses, such as it is, clearly and emphatically contradicts the Warren Commission's conclusion that a lone gunman named Lee Harvey Oswald killed President Kennedy with three shots from his bolt-action rifle and that a single bullet wounded JFK and Connally. If you disagree, make your own tour and send it to us so that we can share it with everyone. (Write ebooks@rivertext.com for details on how to send us your notebooks.) [Special apology about style: In the hearings the comments of every witness and committee member begins with a title like this: Mr. HILL -------------------------> HILL Representative FORD --------> FORD Mrs. HILL -----------------------> Mrs. HILL This book was first published in a different page based e-book format that didn't get much text on a page. (It is that edition that has the 2,000 pages referred to in this introduction.) Eliminating thousands of titles saved lots of space. Later on I realized that with all the women, except Mrs. Kennedy, eliminating Mrs. or Miss would have caused confusion with another individual being interviewed elsewhere. I hope the resulting sexist use of titles can be forgiven.] — Brian Thomas, 1995, 2003 <DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2>Warren Commission Guide</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> The CHAIRMAN: Earl Warren, Chief Justice of Supreme Court FORD: Then Congressman, later only un-elected President of U.S. DULLES: Allen Dulles, CIA chief fired by JFK after Bay of Pigs BOGGS: Hale Boggs, Louisiana Congressman COOPER: John Cooper, Senator from Kentucky McCLOY: John McCloy, Pres. of World Bank, Corporate Exec. RUSSELL: Richard Russell, Senator (never appears in testimony) Commission Lawyers RANKIN: J. Lee Rankin, Chief Counsel SPECTER: Arlen Specter, later Senator from Pennsylvania BELIN: David Belin, later author of books defending Report BALL: Joseph A. Ball LIEBELER: Leslie J. Liebeler STERN: Samuel A. Stern </DIVISION2></DIVISION1> <DIVISION1><DIVISION1TITLE><h2>JFK Witness</h2></DIVISION1TITLE> first published in 1995 This edition is ⌐ Brian Thomas, 1995, 2001 All Rights Reserved (with the following exception) Except for the introduction, and the customized html formatting supplied by the publisher, the text of this book is in the public domain. You may use the text of this book separated from our introduction and the mark-up language used to make the book display correctly in this e-book format, in any way that you see fit. (You can separate the text from the mark-up language by opening this file in any Internet browser, and then saving the file as "text only"). This e-book, with its introduction and unique html formatting is available for free downloading from our web site: www.rivertext.com The e-book reader for which this text was designed is available for free download from: www.fourthworld.com Our e-books are only available for downloading from our web site. Posting them anywhere else is a violation of our copyright. The e-book reader with the sample e-book included by riverText may be made available for free download anywhere on the Internet. Written permission is required to place Sophie, our e-book reader, or any of our e-books on a CD-ROM or to package them in any way with any commercial product. </DIVISION1><DIVISION1><DIVISION1TITLE><H2>In the motorcade</H2></DIVISION1TITLE><DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2>Mrs. Kennedy</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> TESTIMONY OF MRS. JOHN F. KENNEDY The President's Commission met, at 4:20 p.m., on Friday, June 5, 1964, at 3017 N Street NW., Washington, D.C. Present was Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman. Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; and Robert F. Kennedy, Attorney General. The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mrs. Kennedy, the Commission would just like to have you say in your own words, in your own way, what happened at the time of the assassination of the President. Mr. Rankin will ask you a few questions, just from the time you left the airport until the time you started for the hospital. And we want it to be brief. We want it to be in your own words and want you to say anything that you feel is appropriate to that occasion. Would you be sworn, please, Mrs. Kennedy? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mrs. KENNEDY. I do. The CHAIRMAN. Would you be seated. RANKIN. State your name for the record. Mrs. KENNEDY. Jacqueline Kennedy. RANKIN. And you are the widow of the former President Kennedy? Mrs. KENNEDY. That is right. RANKIN. You live here in Washington? Mrs. KENNEDY. Yes. RANKIN. Can you go back to the time that you came to Love Field on November and describe what happened there after you landed in the plane? Mrs. KENNEDY. We got off the plane. The then Vice President and Mrs. Johnson were there. They gave us flowers. And then the car was waiting, but there was a big crowd there, all yelling, with banners and everything. And we went to shake hands with them. It was a very hot day. And you went all along a long line. I tried to stay close to my husband and lots of times you get pushed away, you know, people leaning over and pulling your hand. They were very friendly. And, finally, I don't know how we got back to the car. I think Congressman Thomas somehow was helping me. There was lots of confusion. RANKIN. Then you did get into the car. And you sat on the left side of the car, did you, and your husband on your right? Mrs. KENNEDY. Yes. RANKIN. And was Mrs. Connally — Mrs. KENNEDY. In front of me. RANKIN. And Governor Connally to your right in the jump seat? Mrs. KENNEDY. Yes. RANKIN. And Mrs. Connally was in the jump seat? Mrs. KENNEDY. Yes. RANKIN. And then did you start off on the parade route? Mrs. KENNEDY. Yes. RANKIN. And were there many people along the route that you waved to? Mrs. KENNEDY. Yes. It was rather scattered going in. Once there was a crowd of people with a sign saying something like "President Kennedy, please get out and shake our hands, our neighbors said you wouldn't." RANKIN. Did you? Mrs. KENNEDY. And he stopped and got out. That was, you know, like a little suburb and there were not many crowds. But then the crowds got bigger as you went in. RANKIN. As you got into the main street of Dallas were there very large crowds on all the streets? Mrs. KENNEDY. Yes. RANKIN. And you waved to them and proceeded down the street with the motorcade? Mrs. KENNEDY. Yes. And in the motorcade, you know, I usually would be waving mostly to the left side and he was waving mostly to the right, which is one reason you are not looking at each other very much. And it was terribly hot. Just blinding all of us. RANKIN. Now, do you remember as you turned off of the main street onto Houston Street? Mrs. KENNEDY. I don't know the name of the street. RANKIN. That is that one block before you get to the Depository Building. Mrs. KENNEDY. Well, I remember whenever it was, Mrs. Connally said, "We will soon be there." We could see a tunnel in front of us. Everything was really slow then. And I remember thinking it would be so cool under that tunnel. RANKIN. And then do you remember as you turned off of Houston onto Elm right by the Depository Building? Mrs. KENNEDY. Well, I don't know the names of the streets, but I suppose right by the Depository is what you are talking about? RANKIN. Yes; that is the street that sort of curves as you go down under the underpass. Mrs. KENNEDY. Yes; well, that is when she said to President Kennedy, "You certainly can't say that the people of Dallas haven't given you a nice welcome." RANKIN. What did he say? Mrs. KENNEDY. I think he said — I don't know if I remember it or I have read it, "No, you certainly can't," or something. And you know then the car was very slow and there weren't very many people around. And then — do you want me to tell you what happened? RANKIN. Yes; if you would, please. Mrs. KENNEDY You know, there is always noise in a motorcade and there are always motorcycles besides us, a lot of them backfiring. So I was looking to the left. I guess there was a noise, but it didn't seem like any different noise really because there is so much noise, motorcycles and things. But then suddenly Governor Connally was yelling, "Oh, no, no, no." RANKIN. Did he turn toward you? Mrs. KENNEDY. No; I was looking this way, to the left, and I heard these terrible noises. You know. And my husband never made any sound. So I turned to the right. And all I remember is seeing my husband, he had this sort of quizzical look on his face, and his hand was up, it must have been his left hand. And just as I turned and looked at him, I could see a piece of his skull and I remember it was flesh colored. I remember thinking he just looked as if he had a slight headache. And I just remember seeing that. No blood or anything. And then he sort of did this [indicating], put his hand to his forehead and fell in my lap. And then I just remember falling on him and saying, "Oh, no, no, no," I mean, "Oh, my God, they have shot my husband." And "I love you, Jack," I remember I was shouting. And just being down in the car with his head in my lap. And it just seemed an eternity. You know, then, there were pictures later on of me climbing out the back. But I don't remember that at all. RANKIN. Do you remember Mr. Hill coming to try to help on the car? Mrs. KENNEDY. I don't remember anything. I was just down like that. And finally I remember a voice behind me, or something, and then I remember the people in the front seat, or somebody, finally knew something was wrong, and a voice yelling, which must have been Mr. Hill, "Get to the hospital," or maybe it was Mr. Kellerman, in the front seat. But someone yelling. I was just down and holding him. [Reference to wounds deleted.] RANKIN. Do you have any recollection of whether there were one or more shots? Mrs. KENNEDY. Well, there must have been two because the one that made me turn around was Governor Connally yelling. And it used to confuse me because first I remembered there were three and I used to think my husband didn't make any sound when he was shot. And Governor Connally screamed. And then I read the other day that it was the same shot that hit them both. But I used to think if I only had been looking to the right I would have seen the first shot hit him, then I could have pulled him down, and then the second shot would not have hit him. But I heard Governor Connally yelling and that made me turn around, and as I turned to the right my husband was doing this [indicating with hand at neck]. He was receiving a bullet. And those are the only two I remember. And I read there was a third shot. But I don't know. Just those two. RANKIN. Do you have any recollection generally of the speed that you were going, not any precise amount. Mrs. KENNEDY. We were really slowing turning the corner. And there were very few people. RANKIN. And did you stop at any time after the shots, or proceed about the same way? Mrs. KENNEDY. I don't know, because — I don't think we stopped. But there was such confusion. And I was down in the car and everyone was yelling to get to the hospital and you could hear them on the radio, and then suddenly I remember a sensation of enormous speed, which must have been when we took off. RANKIN. And then from there you proceeded as rapidly as possible to the hospital, is that right? Mrs. Kennedy. Yes. RANKIN. Do you recall anyone saying anything else during the time of the shooting? Mrs. KENNEDY. No; there weren't any words. There was just Governor Connally's. And then I suppose Mrs. Connally was sort of crying and covering her husband. But I don't remember any words. And there was a big windshield between — you know — I think. Isn't there? RANKIN. Between the seats. Mrs. KENNEDY. So you know, those poor men in the front, you couldn't hear them. RANKIN. Can you think of anything more? The CHAIRMAN. No; I think not. I think that is the story and that is what we came for. We thank you very much, Mrs. Kennedy. RANKIN. I would just like to ask if you recall Special Agent Kellerman saying anything to you as you came down the street after you turned that corner that you referred to. Mrs. KENNEDY. You mean before the shots? RANKIN. Yes. Mrs. KENNEDY. Well, I don't, because you know, it is very hard for them to talk. But I do not remember, just as I don't recall climbing out on the back of the car. RANKIN. Yes. You have told us what you remember about the entire period as far as you can recall, have you? Mrs. KENNEDY. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mrs. Kennedy. </DIVISION2><DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2>Governor Connally</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> TESTIMONY OF GOV. JOHN B. CONNALLY, JR. Governor, this Commission has met today for the purpose of taking the testimony of you and Mrs. Connally concerning the sad affair that you were part of. If you will raise your right hand, please, and be sworn. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you God. CONNALLY. I do. The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated, Governor. Mr. Specter will conduct the examination. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please? CONNALLY. John Bowden Connally. SPECTER. What is your official position with the State of Texas, sir? CONNALLY. I am now Governor of the State of Texas. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to be in the automobile which carried President John F. Kennedy through Dallas, Tex., back on November 22, 1963. CONNALLY. Yes, sir; I did. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly, please, the circumstances leading up to the President's planning a trip to Texas in November of last year? CONNALLY. You want to go back to — how far back do you want to go, a few days immediately prior to the trip or a month before, or all of the circumstances surrounding SPECTER. Well, just a very brief picture leading up to the trip, Governor, starting with whatever point you think would be most appropriate to give some outline of the origin of the trip. CONNALLY. Well, it had been thought that he should come to Texas for a period of many months, as a matter of fact. There was some thought given to it during 1962. The trip kept being delayed. Finally in the fall of 1963 it was decided that he definitely should come, or should come in the fall of last year as opposed to waiting until this year, when his appearance might have more political overtones. So I came up, I have forgotten the exact date, around the middle of October and talked to him about it, discussed the details, asked him what he would like to. He said he would like to do whatever he could do that was agreeable with me; it was agreeable with me that he more or less trust me to plan the trip for him, to tell him where he would like to go. About that time some thought was being given to having four fund-raising dinners. His attitude on that was he wouldn't prefer that. He felt that the appearances would not be too good, that he would much prefer to have one if we were going to have any. I told him this was entirely consistent with my own thoughts. We ought not to have more than one fund-raising dinner. If we did, it ought to be in Austin. If we could do it, I would like for him to see and get into as many areas of the state as possible while he was there. He, on his own, had made a commitment to go to the dinner for Congressman Albert Thomas, which was being given the night of the 21st in Houston, so shortly, really before he got there, and when I say shortly I would say 2 weeks before he came, the plans were altered a little bit in that he landed originally in San Antonio in the afternoon about 1:30 of the afternoon of the 21st. From there we went to Houston, attended the Thomas dinner that night at about 8 o'clock. After that we flew to Fort Worth, spent the night at the Texas Hotel, had a breakfast there the next morning, and left about 10 o'clock, 10:30, for the flight over to Dallas. SPECTER. In what vehicle did you fly from Fort Worth to Dallas? CONNALLY. In Air Force 1. SPECTER. And approximately what time did you arrive at Love Field, Tex. CONNALLY. I would say about 11:50, 12:00, shortly before noon. I believe the luncheon was planned for 12:30, and we were running on schedule. I believe it was 11:50. SPECTER. Would you describe for us briefly the ceremonies at Love Field on the arrival of the President? CONNALLY. Well, we, as usual, the President had a receiving line there. I conducted Mrs. Kennedy through the receiving line and introduced her to about 15 or 17 people who were there as an official welcoming committee. The President came right behind, was introduced to them, and then he and Mrs. Kennedy both went over to the railing and spoke to a number of people who were standing around, who visited for 5 or 10 minutes, and then we got into the car as we had customarily done at each of the stops, and Mrs. Connally and I got on the jump seats, and with the President and Mrs. Kennedy on the back seat, and took off for the long motorcade downtown. SPECTER. I will now hand you a photograph which I have marked "Commission Exhibit 697" Governor Connally, and ask you if that accurately depicts the occupants of the car as you were starting that motorcade trip through Dallas? CONNALLY. Yes; it does. SPECTER. Do you know the identities of the men who are riding in the front seat of the car? CONNALLY. Yes. Roy Kellerman is on the right front. He is a Secret Service agent, and Bill — I can't remember the other's name. SPECTER. Greer. I hand you another photograph here, Governor, marked as "Commission Exhibit 698," and ask you if that is a picture of the President's automobile during its ride through the downtown area of Dallas? CONNALLY. Yes; I assume it is. This is certainly the President's automobile, and this is the precise position that each of us occupied in the ride through Dallas. It was the same position, and could be a photograph, of any number of places that we went. But I was seated in the jump seat immediately in front of him, and Mrs. Connally was seated immediately in front of Mrs. Kennedy in the jump seat, and Roy Kellerman was immediately in front of me. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, may I move at this time the admission into evidence of Exhibits 697 and 698? The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. (The items marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 697 and 698 were received in evidence.) SPECTER. What was the relative height of the jump seats, Governor, with respect to the seat of the President and Mrs. Kennedy immediately to your rear? CONNALLY. They were somewhat lower. The back seat of that particular Lincoln limousine, which is a specially designed and built automobile, as you know, for the President of the United States, has an adjustable back seat. It can be lowered or raised. I would say the back seat was approximately 6 inches higher than the jump seats on which Mrs. Connally and I sat. SPECTER. Do you know for certain whether or not the movable back seat was elevated at the time? CONNALLY. No; I could not be sure of it, although I know there were — there was a time or two when he did elevate it, and I think beyond question on most of the ride in San Antonio, Forth Worth, Houston, and Dallas, it was elevated. For a while — the reason I know is — I sat on the back seat with him during part of the ride, particularly in San Antonio, not in Dallas, but in San Antonio. The wind was blowing, and we were traveling fairly fast, and Mrs Kennedy preferred to sit on the jump seat, and I was sitting on the back seat part of the time, and the seat was elevated, and I think it was on substantially all the trip. SPECTER. Was the portion elevated, that where only the President sat? CONNALLY. No: the entire back seat. SPECTER. Describe in a general way the size and reaction of the crowd on the motorcade route, if you would, please, Governor? CONNALLY. When we got into Dallas. there was quite a large crowd at the airport to greet their President, I would say several thousand people. Part way downtown, in the thinly populated areas of Dallas, where we traveled, the crowds were not thick and were somewhat restrained in their reaction. By restrained, I mean they were not wildly enthusiastic, but they were grown people. There was a mature crowd as we went through some of the residential areas. They applauded and they were obviously very friendly in their conduct. But as we, of course, approached downtown, the downtown area of Dallas, going down the main street, the crowds were tremendous. They were stacked from the curb and even outside the curb, back against the back walls. It was a huge crowd. I would estimate there were 250,000 people that had lined the streets that day as we went down. The further you went the more enthusiastic the response was, and the reception. It was a tremendous reception, to the point where just as we turned on Houston Street off of Main, and turned on Houston, down by the courthouse, Mrs. Connally remarked to the President, "Well, Mr. President, you can't say there aren't some people in Dallas who love you." And the President replied, "That is very obvious," or words to that effect. So I would say the reception that he got in Dallas was equal to, if not more, enthusiastic than those he had received in Fort Worth, San Antonio, and Houston. SPECTER. Are there any other conversations which stand out in your mind on the portion of the motorcade trip through Dallas itself? CONNALLY. No; actually we had more or less desultory conversation as we rode along. The crowds were thick all the way down on both sides, and all of us were, particularly the President and Mrs. Kennedy were, acknowledging the crowds. They would turn frequently, smiling, waving to the people, and the opportunity for conversation was limited. So there was no particularly significant conversation or conversations which took place. It was, as I say, pretty desultory conversation. SPECTER. Did the automobile stop at any point during this procession? CONNALLY. Yes; it did. There were at least two occasions on which the automobile stopped in Dallas and, perhaps, a third. There was one little girl, I believe it was, who was carrying a sign saying, "Mr. President, will you please stop and shake hands with me," or some — that was the import of the sign, and he just told the driver to stop, and he did stop and shook hands, and, of course, he was immediately mobbed by a bunch of youngsters, and the Secret Service men from the car following us had to immediately come up and wedge themselves in between the crowd and the car to keep them back away from the automobile, and it was a very short stop. At another point along the route, a Sister, a Catholic nun, was there, obviously from a Catholic school, with a bunch of little children, and he stopped and spoke to her and to the children: and I think there was one other stop on the way downtown, but I don't recall the precise occasion. But I know there were two, but I think there was still another one. SPECTER. Are there any other events prior to the time of the shooting itself which stand out in your mind on the motorcade trip through Dallas? CONNALLY. No; not that have any particular significance. SPECTER. As to the comment which Mrs. Connally had made to President Kennedy which you just described, where on the motor trip was that comment made, if you recall? CONNALLY. This was just before we turned on Elm Street, after we turned off of Main. SPECTER. Onto Houston? CONNALLY. Onto Houston, right by the courthouse before we turned left onto Elm Street, almost at the end of the motorcade, and almost, I would say, perhaps a minute before the fatal shooting. SPECTER. What was the condition of the crowd at that juncture of the motorcade, sir? CONNALLY. At that particular juncture, when she made this remark, the crowd was still very thick and very enthusiastic. It began to thin immediately after we turned onto Elm Street. We could look ahead and see that the crowd was beginning to thin along the banks, just east, I guess of the overpass. SPECTER. Was there any difficulty in hearing such a conversational comment? CONNALLY. No, no; we could talk without any, and hear very clearly, without any difficulty, without any particular strain. We didn't do it again because in trying to carry on a conversation it would be apparent to those who were the spectators on the sidewalk, and we didn't want to leave the impression we were not interested in them, and so we just didn't carry on a conversation, but we could do so without any trouble. SPECTER. As the automobile turned left onto Elm from Houston, what did occur there, Governor? CONNALLY. We had — we had gone, I guess, 150 feet, maybe 200 feet, I don't recall how far it was, heading down to get on the freeway, the Stemmons Freeway, to go out to the hall where we were going to have lunch and, as I say, the crowds had begun to thin, and we could — I was anticipating that we were going to be at the hall in approximately 5 minutes from the time we turned on Elm Street. We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye, and I was interested, because once I heard the shot in my own mind I identified it as a rifle shot, and I immediately — the only thought that crossed my mind was that this is an assassination attempt. So I looked, failing to see him, I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back. SPECTER. What is the best estimate that you have as to the time span between the sound of the first shot and the feeling of someone hitting you in the back which you just described? CONNALLY, A very, very brief span of time. Again my trend of thought just happened to be, I suppose along this line, I immediately thought that this — that I had been shot. I knew it when I just looked down and I was covered with blood, and the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle. These were just thoughts that went through my mind because of the rapidity of these two, of the first shot plus the blow that I took, and I knew I had been hit, and I immediately assumed because of the amount of blood, and, in fact, that it had obviously passed through my chest, that I had probably been fatally hit. So I merely doubled up, and then turned to my right again and began to — I just sat there, and Mrs. Connally pulled me over to her lap. She was sitting, of course, on the jump seat, so I reclined with my head in her lap, conscious all the time, and with my eyes open; and then, of course, the third shot sounded, and I heard the shot very clearly. I heard it hit him. I heard the shot hit something, and I assumed again — it never entered my mind that it ever hit anybody but the President. I heard it hit. It was a very loud noise, just that audible, very clear. Immediately I could see on my clothes, my clothing, I could see on the interior of the car which, as I recall, was a pale blue, brain tissue, which I immediately recognized, and I recall very well, on my trousers there was one chunk of brain tissue as big as almost my thumb, thumbnail, and again I did not see the President at any time either after the first, second, or third shots, but I assumed always that it was he who was hit and no one else. I immediately, when I was hit, I said, "Oh, no, no, no." And then I said, "My God, they are going to kill us all." Nellie, when she pulled me over into her lap — SPECTER. Nellie is Mrs. Connally CONNALLY. Mrs. Connally. When she pulled me over into her lap, she could tell I was still breathing and moving, and she said, "Don't worry, be quiet. You are going to be all right." She just kept telling me I was going to be all right. After the third shot, and I heard Roy Kellerman tell the driver, "Bill, get out of line." And then I saw him move, and I assumed he was moving a button or something on the panel of the automobile, and he said, "Get us to a hospital quick." I assumed he was saying this to the patrolman, the motorcycle police who were leading us. At about that time, we began to pull out of the cavalcade, out of the line, and I lost consciousness and didn't regain consciousness until we got to the hospital. SPECTER. Governor Connally, I hand you a photograph, marked Commission Exhibit 699, which is an overhead shot of Dealey Plaza depicting the intersection of Houston and Elm, and ask you if you would take a look at that photograph and mark for us, if you would, with one of the red pencils at your right, the position of the President's automobile as nearly as you can where it was at the time the shooting first started. CONNALLY. I would say it would be about where this truck is here. It looks like a truck. I would say about in that neighborhood. SPECTER. Would you place your initials, Governor, by the mark that you made there? Governor, you have described hearing a first shot and a third shot. Did you hear a second shot? CONNALLY. No; I did not. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time span between the first shot which you heard and the shot which you heretofore characterized as the third shot? CONNALLY. It was a very brief span of time; oh, I would have to say a matter of seconds. I don't know, 10, 12 seconds. It was extremely rapid, so much so that again I thought that whoever was firing must be firing with an automatic rifle because of the rapidity of the shots; a very short period of time. SPECTER. What was your impression then as to the source of the shot? CONNALLY. From back over my right shoulder which, again, was where immediately when I heard the first shot I identified the sound as coming back over my right shoulder. SPECTER. At an elevation? CONNALLY. At an elevation. I would have guessed at an elevation. SPECTER. Excuse me. CONNALLY. Well, that is all. SPECTER. Did you have an impression as to the source of the third shot? CONNALLY. The same. I would say the same. SPECTER. How fast was the President's automobile proceeding at that time? CONNALLY. I would guess between 20 and 22 miles an hour, and it is a guess because I didn't look at the speedometer. but I would say in that range. SPECTER. Did President Kennedy make any statement during the time of the shooting or immediately prior thereto? CONNALLY. He never uttered a sound at all that I heard. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy state anything at that time? CONNALLY. Yes; I have to — I would say it was after the third shot when she said, "They have killed my husband." SPECTER. Did she say anything more? CONNALLY. Yes; she said, I heard her say one time, "I have got his brains in my hand." SPECTER. Did that constitute everything that she said at that time? CONNALLY. That is all I heard her say. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Connally say anything further at this time? CONNALLY. All she said to me was, after I was hit when she pulled me over in her lap, she said, "Be quiet, you are going to be all right. Be still, you are going to be all right." She just kept repeating that. SPECTER. Was anything further stated by Special Agent Roy Kellerman other than that which you have already testified about? CONNALLY. No; those are the only two remarks that I heard him make. SPECTER. Was any statement made by Special Agent William Greer at or about the time of the shooting? CONNALLY. No; I did not hear Bill say anything. SPECTER. Did you observe any reaction by President Kennedy after the shooting? CONNALLY. No; I did not see him. SPECTER. Did you observe any reaction by Mrs. Kennedy after the shooting? CONNALLY. I did not see her. This almost sounds incredible, I am sure, since we were in the car with them. But again I will repeat very briefly when what I believe to be the shot first occurred, I turned to my right, which was away from both of them, of course, and looked out and could see neither, and then as I was turning to look into the back seat where I would have seen both of them, I was hit, so I never completed the turn at all, and I never saw either one of them after the firing started, and, of course, as I have testified, then Mrs. Connally pulled me over into her lap and I was facing forward with my head slightly turned up to where I could see the driver and Roy Kellerman on his right, but I could not see into the back seat, so I didn't see either one of them. SPECTER. When you turned to your right, Governor Connally, immediately after you heard the first shot, what did you see on that occasion? CONNALLY. Nothing of any significance except just people out on the grass slope. I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, just saw men, women, and children. SPECTER. Do you have any estimate as to the distance which the President's automobile traveled during the shooting? CONNALLY. No; I hadn't thought about it, but I would suppose in 10 to 12 seconds, I suppose you travel a couple of hundred feet. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullet or fragments of bullet strike the windshield? CONNALLY. No. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullet or fragments of bullet strike the metal chrome? CONNALLY. No. SPECTER. Did you experience any sensation of being struck any place other than that which you have described on your chest? CONNALLY. No. SPECTER. What other wounds, if any, did you sustain? CONNALLY. A fractured wrist and a wound in the thigh, just above the knee. SPECTER. What thigh? CONNALLY. Left thigh; just above the knee. SPECTER. Where on the wrist were you injured, sir? CONNALLY. I don't know how you describe it. SPECTER. About how many inches up from the wrist joint? CONNALLY. I would say an inch above the wrist bone, but on the inner bone of the wrist where the bullet went in here and came out almost in the center of the wrist on the underside. SPECTER. About an inch from the base of the palm? CONNALLY. About an inch from the base of the palm, a little less than an inch, three-quarters of an inch. SPECTER. Were you conscious of receiving that wound on the wrist at the time you sustained it? CONNALLY. No, sir; I was not. SPECTER. When did you first know you were wounded in the right wrist? CONNALLY. When I came to in the hospital on Saturday, the next morning, and I looked up and my arm was tied up in a hospital bed, and I said, "What is wrong with my arm?" And they told me then that I had a shattered wrist, and that is when I also found out I had a wound in the thigh. SPECTER. Can you describe the nature of the wound in the thigh? CONNALLY. Well, just a raw, open wound, looked like a fairly deep penetration. SPECTER. Indicating about 2 inches? CONNALLY. No; I would say about an inch, an inch and a quarter long is all; fairly wide, I would say a quarter of an inch wide, maybe more, a third of an inch wide, and about an inch and a quarter, an inch and a half long. SPECTER. Were you conscious that you had been wounded on the left thigh at the time it occurred? CONNALLY. No. SPECTER. Did you first notice that in the hospital on the following day also? CONNALLY. Yes. SPECTER. In your view, which bullet caused the injury to your chest, Governor Connally? CONNALLY. The second one. SPECTER. And what is your reason for that conclusion, sir? CONNALLY. Well, in my judgment, it just couldn't conceivably have been the first one because I heard the sound of the shot. In the first place, I don't know anything about the velocity of this particular bullet, but any rifle has a velocity that exceeds the speed of sound, and when I heard the sound of that first shot, that bullet had already reached where I was, or it had reached that far, and after I heard that shot, I had the time to turn to my right, and start to turn to my left before I felt anything. It is not conceivable to me that I could have been hit by the first bullet, and then I felt the blow from something which was obviously a bullet, which I assumed was a bullet, and I never heard the second shot, didn't hear it. I didn't hear but two shots. I think I heard the first shot and the third shot. SPECTER. Do you have any idea as to why you did not hear the second shot? CONNALLY. Well, first, again I assume the bullet was traveling faster than the sound. I was hit by the bullet prior to the time the sound reached me, and I was in either a state of shock or the impact was such that the sound didn't even register on me, but I was never conscious of hearing the second shot at all. Obviously, at least the major wound that I took in the shoulder through the chest couldn't have been anything but the second shot. Obviously, it couldn't have been the third, because when the third shot was fired I was in a reclining position, and heard it, saw it and the effects of it, rather — I didn't see it, I saw the effects of it — so it obviously could not have been the third, and couldn't have been the first, in my judgment. SPECTER. What was the nature of the exit wound on the front side of your chest, Governor? CONNALLY. I would say, if the Committee would be interested, I would just as soon you look at it. Is there any objection to any of you looking at it? The CHAIRMAN. No. CONNALLY. You can tell yourself. I would say, to describe it for the record, however, that it, the bullet, went in my back just below the right shoulder blade, at just about the point that the right arm joins the shoulder, right in that groove, and exited about 2 inches toward the center of the body from the right nipple of my chest. I can identify these for you. The bullet went in here — see if I properly describe that — about the juncture of the right arm and the shoulder. SPECTER. Let the record show that the Governor has removed his shirt and we can view the wound on the back which he is pointing toward. CONNALLY. The other two are tubes that were inserted in my back by the doctors. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw is present and he can, perhaps, describe with identifiable precision where the wounds are. Dr. SHAW. There is the wound of the drain that has been specifically described. It was not as large as the scar indicated because in cleaning up the ragged edges of the wound, some of the skin was excised in order to make a cleaner incision. This scar — SPECTER. Will you describe the location, Doctor, of that wound on the Governor's back? Dr. SHAW. Yes. It is on the right shoulder, I will feel it, just lateral to the shoulder blade, the edge of which is about 2 centimeters from the wound, and just above and slightly medial to the crease formed by the axilla or the armpit, the arm against the chest wall. SPECTER. What other scars are shown there on the Governor's back? Dr. SHAW. The other scars are surgically induced. This is the incision that was made to drain the depth of the subscapular space. SPECTER. And there you are indicating an incision at what location, please? Dr. SHAW. Just at the angle of the shoulder blade. Here is the angle of the shoulder blade. These incisions were never closed by suture. These incisions were left open and they healed by what we call secondary intention, because in this case there was what we call a Penrose drain, which is a soft-rubber drain going up into the depths of the shoulder to allow any material to drain. This was to prevent infection. The other small opening was the one in which the tube was placed through the eighth interspace. SPECTER. Indicate its location, please, Doctor, on his back. ?136 Dr. SHAW. This is lower on the right back in what we refer to as the posterior axillary line, roughly this line; SPECTER. There you are drawing a vertical, virtually vertical line? Dr. SHAW. Yes. It is on the right back, but getting close to the lateral portion of the chest. This also was a stab wound which was never sutured. There was a rubber drain through this that led to what we call a water seal bottle to allow for drainage of the inside of the chest. SPECTER. Indicating again the second medically inflicted wound. Dr. SHAW. Yes; that is right. SPECTER. Will you now, Doctor, describe the location of the wound of exit on the Governor's chest, please? Dr. SHAW. Yes. The wound of exit was beneath and medial to the nipple. Here was this V that I was indicating. It is almost opposite that. At the time of the wound there was a ragged oval hole here at least 5 centimeters in diameter, but the skin edges were, excised, and here again this scar does not look quite as nice as it does during the more lateral portion of the surgically induced incision, because this skin was brought together under a little tension, and there is a little separation there. SPECTER. Will you describe the entire scar there, Doctor, for the record, please? Dr. SHAW. Yes. The entire surgical incision runs from the anterior portion of the chest just lateral to the, we call it, the condral arch, the V formed by the condral arch, and then extends laterally below the nipple, running up, curving up, into the posterior axillary portion or the posterior lateral wall of the chest. SPECTER. What is the total length of the scar, Doctor? Dr. SHAW. Twenty centimeters, about. DULLES. Where was the center of the bullet wound itself in that scar about? Dr. SHAW. Here. DULLES. There? Dr. SHAW. Yes. All of the rest of this incision was necessary to gain access to the depths of the wound for the debridement, for removing all of the destroyed tissue because of the passage of the bullet. DULLES. Would you give us in your hand the area of declination from the entry to the — Dr. SHAW. This way. DULLES. Yes. SPECTER. Can you estimate that angle for us, Doctor? Dr. SHAW. We are talking about the angle now, of course, with the horizontal, and I would say — you don't have a caliper there, do you? Dr. GREGORY. Yes. Dr. SHAW. I was going to guess somewhere between 25° and 30°. DULLES. Sorry to ask these questions. CONNALLY. That is fine. I think it is an excellent question. Dr. SHAW. Well, this puts it right at 25°. SPECTER. That is the angle then of elevation as you are measuring it? Dr. SHAW. Measuring from back to front, it is the elevation of the posterior wound over the anterior wound. The CHAIRMAN. The course being downward back to front? Dr. SHAW. Yes. CONNALLY. Back to front. The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Dr. SHAW. At the time of the initial examination, as I described, this portion of the Governor's chest was mobile, it was moving in and out because of the softening of the chest, and that was the reason I didn't want the skin incision to be directly over that, because to get better healing it is better to have a firm pad of tissue rather than having the incision directly over the softened area. DULLES. Doctor, would the angle be the same if the Governor were seated now the way he was in the chair? Dr. SHAW. That is a good question. Of course, we don't know exactly whether he was back or tipped forward. But I don't think there is going to be much difference. DULLES. Were you seated in about that way, Governor? CONNALLY. Mr. Dulles, I would say I was in about this position when I was hit, with my face approximately looking toward you, 20° off of center. Dr. SHAW. Yes; I got 27°. That didn't make much difference. SPECTER. Is that reading taken then while the Governor is in a seated position, Doctor? Dr. SHAW. Yes, seated; yes. BOGGS. May I ask a question? How would his hand have been under those circumstances, Doctor, for the bullet to hit his wrist? Dr. GREGORY. I think it fits very well, really, remembering at the other end the trajectory is right here, and there would be no problem to pose his hands in that fashion, and if you will note, you can see it best from over here really, because you did see that the point of entry, and you can visualize his thigh, there is no problem to visualize the trajectory. DULLES. Would you be naturally holding your hand in that position? Dr. GREGORY. It could be any place. CONNALLY. It could be anywhere on that line, Mr. Dulles. Mr. Chief Justice, you see this is the leg. Dr. SHAW. Of course, the wound is much smaller than this. SPECTER. Let the record show the Governor has displayed the left thigh showing the scar caused by the entry of the missile in the left thigh. Dr. Gregory, will you describe the locale of that? Dr. GREGORY. Yes. This scar, excisional scar, is a better term, if I may just interject that SPECTER. Please do. Dr. GREGORY. The excisional scar to the Governor's thigh is located at a point approximately 10 or 12 centimeters above the adductor tubercule of the femur, placing it at the juncture of the middle and distal third of his thigh. SPECTER. In lay language, Doctor, about how far is that up from the knee area? Dr. GREGORY. Five inches, 6 inches. SPECTER. Governor Connally, can you recreate the position that you were sitting in in the automobile, as best you can recollect, at the time you think you were struck? CONNALLY. I think, having turned to look over my right shoulder, then revolving to look over my left shoulder, I threw my right wrist over on my left leg. SPECTER. And in the position you are seated now, with your right wrist on your left leg, with your little finger being an inch or two from your knee? CONNALLY. From the knee. SPECTER. And, Dr. Gregory, would that be in approximate alinement which has been characterized on Commission Exhibit — [no exhibit # in text — but it is #689] Dr. GREGORY. I think it fits reasonably well; yes, sir. SPECTER. In a moment here I can get that exhibit. DULLES. May I ask a question in the meantime? CONNALLY. Yes, sir. DULLES. You turned to the right, as I recall your testimony, because you heard the sound coming from the right? CONNALLY. Yes, sir. DULLES. How did you happen to turn then to the left, do you remember why that was? CONNALLY. Yes, sir; I know exactly. I turned to the right both to see, because it was an instinctive movement, because that is where the sound came from, but even more important, I immediately thought it was a rifle shot, I immediately thought of an assassination attempt, and I turned to see if I could see the President, to see if he was all right. Failing to see him over my right shoulder, I turned to look over my left shoulder — DULLES. I see. CONNALLY. Into the back seat, and I never completed that turn. I got no more than substantially looking forward, a little bit to the left of forward, when I got hit. BOGGS. May I ask one of the doctors a question? What is the incidence of recovery from a wound of this type? Dr. GREGORY. I will defer the answer to Dr. Shaw. From the wrist, excellent so far as recovery is concerned. Functionally, recovery is going to be good, too, and Dr. Shaw can take on the other one. Dr. SHAW. We never had any doubt about the Governor's recovery. We knew what we had to do and we felt he could recover. I think I indicated that to Mrs. Connally. CONNALLY. As soon as you got into the chest and found out what it was. BOGGS. But there was a very serious wound, was there not, Doctor? Dr. SHAW. Yes. It was both a shocking and painful wound, and the effects of the wound, the immediate effects of the wound, were very dangerous as far as Governor Connally was concerned, because he had what we call a sucking wound of the chest. This would not allow him to breathe. I think instinctively what happened, while he was riding in the car on the way to the hospital, he probably had his arm across, and be may have instinctively closed that sucking area to some extent. But they had to immediately put an occlusive dressing on it as soon as he got inside to keep him from sucking air in and out of the right chest. BOGGS. Had hospitalization been delayed for about another half hour or so Dr. SHAW. That is speculation, but I don't think he could have maintained breathing, sufficient breathing, for a half hour with that type of wound. It is a little speculation. It would depend on how well he could protect himself. We have had instances where by putting their jackets around them like this, they could include this, and go for a considerable period of time. Airmen during the war instinctively protected themselves in this way. BOGGS. You have no doubt about his physical ability to serve as Governor? Dr. SHAW. None whatever. [Laughter.] COOPER. I am just trying to remember whether we asked you, Doctor, if you probed the wound in the thigh to see how deep it was. Dr. GREGORY. I did not, Senator. Dr. Tom Shires at our institution attended that wound, and I have his description to go on, what he found, what he had written, and his description is that it did not penetrate the thigh very deeply, just to the muscle, but not beyond that. BOGGS. Just one other question of the Dr. Having looked at the wound, there is no doubt in either of your minds that that bullet came from the rear, is there? Dr. GREGORY. There has never been any doubt in my mind about the origin of the missile; no. BOGGS. And in you to? Dr. SHAW. No. SPECTER. Governor Connally, this is the exhibit which I was referring to, being 689. Was that your approximation except — that is the alinement with your right hand being on your left leg as you have just described? CONNALLY. No; it looks like my right hand is up on my chest. But I don't know. I can't say with any degree of certainty where my right hand was, frankly. SPECTER. Governor Connally — CONNALLY. It could have been up on my chest, it could have been suspended in the air, it could have been down on my leg, it could have been anywhere. I just don't remember. I obviously, I suppose, like anyone else, wound up the next day realizing I was hit in three places, and I was not conscious of having been hit but by one bullet, so I tried to reconstruct how I could have been hit in three places by the same bullet, and I merely, I know it penetrated from the back through the chest first. I assumed that I had turned as I described a moment ago, placing my right hand on my left leg, that it hit my wrist, went out the center of the wrist, the underside, and then into my leg, but it might not have happened that way at all. SPECTER. Were your knees higher on the jump seat than they would be on a normal chair such as you are sitting CONNALLY. I would say it was not unlike this, with the exception the knees might be slightly higher, perhaps a half an inch to an inch higher. DULLES. In this photograph you happen to have your right arm on the side of the car. I don't know whether you recall that. That is Commission Exhibit 698. That just happened to be one pose at one particular time? CONNALLY. Yes; I don't think there is any question, Mr. Dulles, at various times we were turned in every direction. We had arms extended out of the car, on the side. DULLES. That was taken earlier, I believe. Was that on Main Street? Where was that taken? BOGGS. I wonder if I might ask a question? The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead. BOGGS. This is a little bit off the subject, but it is pretty well established that the Governor was shot and he has recovered. Do you have any reason to believe there was any conspiracy afoot for somebody to assassinate you? CONNALLY. None whatever. BOGGS. Had you ever received any threat from Lee Harvey Oswald of any kind? CONNALLY. No. BOGGS. Did you know him? CONNALLY. No. BOGGS. Had you ever seen him? CONNALLY. No. BOGGS. Have you ever had any belief of, subsequent to the assassination of President Kennedy and your own injury, that there was a conspiracy here of any kind? CONNALLY. None whatever. BOGGS. What is your theory about what happened? CONNALLY. Well, it is pure theory based on nothing more than what information is available to everyone, and probably less is available to me, certainly less than is available to you here on this Commission. But I think you had an individual here with a completely warped, demented mind who, for whatever reason, wanted to do two things: First, to vent his anger, his hate, against many people and many things in a dramatic fashion that would carve for him, in however infamous a fashion, a niche in the history books of this country. And I think he deliberately set out to do just what he did, and that is the only thing that I can think of. You ask me my theory, and that is my theory, and certainly not substantiated by any facts. BOGGS. Going on again, Governor, and again using the word "theory," do you have any reason to believe that there was any connection between Oswald and Ruby? CONNALLY. I have no reason to believe that there was; no, Congressman. By the same token, if you ask me do I have any reason not to believe it, I would have to answer the same, I don't know. BOGGS. Yes. CONNALLY. I just don't have any knowledge or any information about the background of either, and I am just not in a position to say. DULLES. You recall your correspondence with Oswald in connection with Marine matters, when he thought you were still Secretary of the Navy? CONNALLY. After this was all over, I do, Mr. Dulles. As I recall, he wrote me a letter asking that his dishonorable discharge be corrected. But at the time he wrote the letter, if he had any reason about it at all, or shortly thereafter, he would have recognized that I had resigned as Secretary of the Navy a month before I got the letter, so it would really take a peculiar mind, it seems to me, to harbor any grudge as a result of that when I had resigned as Secretary prior to the receipt of the letter. DULLES. I think I can say without violating any confidence, that there is nothing in the record to indicate that there was — in fact, Marina, the wife, testified, in fact, to the contrary. There was no animus against you on the part of Oswald, as you — CONNALLY. I have wondered, of course, in my own mind as to whether or not there could have conceivably been anything, and the only — I suppose like any person at that particular moment, I represented authority to him. Perhaps he was in a rebellious spirit enough to where I was as much a target as anyone else. But that is the only conceivable basis on which I can assume that he was deliberately trying to hit me. BOGGS. You have no doubt about the fact that he was deliberately trying to hit you? CONNALLY. Yes, I do; I do have doubt, Congressman. I am not at all sure he was shooting at me. I think I could with some logic argue either way. The logic in favor of him, of the position that he was shooting at me, is simply borne out by the fact that the man fired three shots, and he hit each of the three times he fired. He obviously was a pretty good marksman, so you have to assume to some extent at least that he was hitting what he was shooting at. On the other hand, I think I could argue with equal logic that obviously his prime target, and I think really his sole target, was President Kennedy. His first shot, at least to him, he could not have but known the effect that it might have on the President. His second shot showed that he had clearly missed the President, and his result to him, as the result of the first shot, the President slumped and changed his position in the back seat just enough to expose my back. I haven't seen all of the various positions, but again I think from where he was shooting I was in the direct line of fire immediately in front of the President, so any movement on the part of the President would expose me. The CHAIRMAN. Have you seen the moving pictures, Governor? CONNALLY. Yes, sir; I have, Mr. Chief Justice. SPECTER. Was there any point of exit on your thigh wound? CONNALLY. No. SPECTER. (to Dr. Gregory.) Would you give the precise condition of the right wrist, and cover the thigh, too? Dr. GREGORY. The present state of the wound on his wrist indicates that the linear scar made in the course of the excision is well healed; that its upper limb is about CONNALLY. I thinks he wants you to describe the position of it. SPECTER. Yes; the position. Dr. GREGORY. I was about to do that. The upper limb of it is about 5 centimeters above the wrist joint, and curves around toward the thumb distally to about a centimeter above the wrist joint. SPECTER. What is the total length of that? Dr. GREGORY. The length of that excisional scar is about 4 centimeters, an inch and a half. SPECTER. What is the wound appearing to be on the palmer side? Dr. GREGORY. The wound on the palmer side of the wrist is now converted to a well-healed linear scar approximately one-half inch in length, and located about three-quarters of an inch above the distal flexion crease. BOGGS. What is the prognosis for complete return of function there? Dr. GREGORY. Very good, Congressman; very good. SPECTER. Governor Connally, I now show you the black jacket and ask you if you can identify what that jacket is, whose it is? CONNALLY. Yes, sir; that is mine. SPECTER. When did you last wear that jacket? CONNALLY. On November 22 I was wearing this, the day of the shooting. SPECTER. I show you Commission Exhibit 683 and ask you if that is a photograph of the front side of the jacket, as it appears at the moment? CONNALLY. Yes; it is. SPECTER. I show you Exhibit 684, and ask if that is a photograph of the rear side of the jacket? CONNALLY. Yes, sir; it is. SPECTER. I now show you a shirt and ask you if you can identify this as having been the shirt you wore on the day of the assassination? CONNALLY. Yes, sir; that is the shirt I had on. SPECTER. I show you Exhibit 685 and ask if that is a picture of the rear side of the shirt? CONNALLY. Yes; it is. SPECTER. Exhibit 686 is shown to you, and I ask you if that is a photograph of the front side of the shirt? CONNALLY. Yes, sir; it is. SPECTER. I show you a pair of black trousers and ask you if you can identify them? CONNALLY. Yes, sir; these are the trousers to the coat we looked at a moment ago. They were the trousers I was wearing on the day of the shooting. SPECTER. I show you a photograph and ask you, which is Exhibit 687, if that is a photograph of the front of the trousers? CONNALLY. Yes, sir; it is. SPECTER. I show you Exhibit 688 and ask you if that depicts the rear of the trousers? CONNALLY. Yes, sir; it does. SPECTER. I show you a tie, and ask you if you can identify that? CONNALLY. Yes, sir; that is the tie I was wearing on the day of the shooting. SPECTER. I now show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 700 and ask if that is a picture of the tie? CONNALLY. Yes, sir; it is. SPECTER. What is the permanent home of these clothes at the present time when they are not on Commission business? CONNALLY. They, the Archives of the State of Texas, asked for the clothing, and I have given the clothing to them. That is where they were sent from, I believe, here, to this Commission. SPECTER. At this juncture, Mr. Chief Justice, I move for the admission in evidence of Commission Exhibits 699 and 700. The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. (The items marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 699 and 700 for identification were received in evidence.) SPECTER. Governor Connally, in 1963 we were informed that Lee Harvey Oswald paid a visit to Austin, Tex., and is supposed to also have visited your office. Do you have any knowledge of such a visit? CONNALLY. No, sir. DULLES. What date did you give? SPECTER. 1963. BOGGS. What date in 1963? SPECTER. We do not have the exact date on that. BOGGS. Excuse me just a minute. Would your office records indicate such a visit? CONNALLY. It might or might not, Congressman. We have — BOGGS. That is what I would think. CONNALLY. We have there a reception room that is open from about 9:30 to 12 and from 2 to 4 every day, and depending on the time of the year there are literally hundreds of people who come in there. There would be as high as 80 at a time that come in groups, and a tour — this is a very large reception room which, frankly, we can't use for any other purpose because it is so useful for tourists, and they literally come in by the hundreds, and some days we will have a thousand people in that room on any given day. So for me to say he never was in there, I couldn't do that; and he might well have been there, and no record of it in the office. We make no attempt to keep a record of all the people who come in. If they come in small groups or if they have appointments with me, or one of my assistants, yes, we do. We keep records of people who come in and want to leave a card or leave word that they dropped by. But I have no knowledge that he ever came by. SPECTER. Governor Connally, on your recitation of the events on the day of the assassination, you had come to the point where the shooting was concluded and the automobile had started to accelerate toward the hospital. What recollection do you have, if any, of the events on the way to the hospital from the assassination scene? CONNALLY. None really. I think at that point I had lost consciousness because I don't have any recollection, Mr. Specter, of anything that occurred on the way to the hospital. It was a very short period of time, but I don't remember it. SPECTER. Do you have any recollection of your arrival at the hospital itself, at the Parkland Hospital? CONNALLY. Yes. I think when the car stopped the driver was obviously driving at a very rapid rate of speed, and apparently, as he threw on the brakes of the car, it brought me back to consciousness. Again, a strange thing — strange things run through your mind and, perhaps, not so strange under the circumstances, but I immediately — the only thought that occurred to me was that I was in the jump seat next to the door, that everyone concerned, was going to be concerned with the President: that I had to get out of the way so they could get to the President. So although I was reclining, and again Mrs. Connally holding me, I suddenly lurched out of her arms and tried to stand upright to get myself out of the car. I got — I don't really know how far I got. They tell me I got almost upright, and then just collapsed again, and someone then picked me up and put me on a stretcher. I again was very conscious because this was the first time that I had any real sensation of pain, and at this point the pain in the chest was excruciating, and I kept repeating just over and over, "My God, it hurts, it hurts," and it was hurting, it was excruciating at that point. I was conscious then off and on during the time I was in the emergency room. I don't recall that I remember everything, but I remember quite a bit. I remember being wheeled down the passageway, I remember doctors and various people talking in the emergency room, I remember them asking me a number of questions, too, which I answered, but that was about it. SPECTER. Do you know whether there was any bullet, or bullet fragments. that remained in your body or in your clothing as you were placed on the emergency stretcher at Parkland Hospital? CONNALLY. No. SPECTER. Governor Connally, other than that which you have already testified to, do you know of any events or occurrences either before the trip or with the President in Texas during his trip, or after his trip, which could shed any light on the assassination itself? CONNALLY. None whatever. SPECTER. Do you know of any conversations involving anyone at all. either before the trip, during the trip, or after the trip. other than those which you have already related, which would shed any light on the facts surrounding the assassination? CONNALLY. None whatever. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful to the Commission in any way? CONNALLY. No, sir; SPECTER. I don't. CONNALLY. I want to express my gratitude to the Commission for hearing me so patiently. but I only wish I could have added something more that would be helpful to the Commission on arriving at the many answers to so many of these difficult problems, but I don't. I can only say that it has taken some little time to describe the events and what happened. It is rather amazing in retrospect when you think really what a short period of time it took for it to occur, in a matter of seconds, and if my memory is somewhat vague about precisely which way I was looking or where my hand or arm was, I can only say I hope it is understandable in tile light of the fact that this was a very sudden thing. It was a very shocking thing. I have often wondered myself why I never had the presence of mind enough — I obviously did say something; I said, "Oh, no, no, no," and then I said, "My God, they are going to kill us all." I don't know why I didn't say, "Get down in the car," but I didn't. You just never know why you react the way you do and why you don't do some things you ought to do. But I am again grateful to this Commission as a participant in this tragedy and as a citizen of this country, and I want to express, I think in behalf of millions of people, our gratitude for the time and energy and the dedication that this Commission has devoted to trying to supply the answers that people, I am sure, will be discussing for generations to come. I know it has been a difficult, long, laborious task for you, but I know that generations of the future Americans will be grateful for your efforts. BOGGS. Governor, I would like to say that we have had fine cooperation from all of your Texas officials, from the attorney general of the State, and from his people and others who have worked with the Commission. CONNALLY. Well, we are delighted, and I am very happy that the attorney general is here with us today. COOPER. May I ask one question? The CHAIRMAN. Yes, Senator Cooper. COOPER. Governor, at the time you all passed the Texas School Book Depository, did you know that such a building was located there? Were you familiar with the building at all? CONNALLY. Just vaguely, Senator. COOPER. But now when you heard the shot, you turned to your right because you thought, as you said, that the shot came from that direction. As you turned, was that in the direction of the Texas School Book Depository? CONNALLY. Yes, sir; it was. COOPER. Do you remember an overpass in front of you? CONNALLY. Yes, sir. COOPER. As you moved down? CONNALLY. Yes, sir. COOPER. Were you aware at all of any sounds of rifle shots from the direction of the overpass, from the embankment? CONNALLY. No, sir; I don't believe there were such. COOPER. Well, you know, there have been stories. CONNALLY. Yes, sir; but I don't believe that. COOPER. I wanted to ask you if you were very conscious of the fact — you were conscious of a shot behind you, you were not aware of any shot from the embankment or overpass. The answer is what? CONNALLY. I am not aware of any shots from the overpass, Senator. Senator, I might repeat my testimony with emphasis to this extent, that I have all my life been familiar with the sound of a rifle shot, and the sound I heard I thought was a rifle shot, at the time I heard it I didn't think it was a firecracker, or blowout or anything else. I thought it was a rifle shot. I have hunted enough to think that my perception with respect to directions is very, very good, and this shot I heard came from back over my right shoulder, which was in the direction of the School Book Depository, no question about it. I heard no other. The first and third shots came from there. I heard no other sounds that would indicate to me there was any commotion or disturbance of shots or anything else on the overpass. COOPER. Would you describe again the nature of the shock that you had when you felt that you had been hit by a bullet? CONNALLY. Senator, the best way I can describe it is to say that I would say it is as if someone doubled his fist and came up behind you and just with about a 12-inch blow hit you right in the back right below the shoulder blade. COOPER. That is when you heard the first rifle shot? CONNALLY. This was after I heard the first rifle shot. There was no pain connected with it. There was no particular burning sensation. There was nothing more than that. I think you would feel almost the identical sensation I felt if someone came up behind you and just, With a short jab, hit you with a doubled-up fist just below the shoulder blade. COOPER. That is all. SPECTER. I have just one other question, Governor. With respect to the films and the slides which you have viewed this morning, have you ever seen those pictures before this morning? CONNALLY. I had seen what purported to be a copy of the film when I was in the hospital in Dallas. I had not seen the slides. SPECTER. And when do you think you were hit on those slides, Governor. or in what range of slides? CONNALLY. We took — you are talking about the number of the slides? SPECTER. Yes. CONNALLY. As we looked at them this morning, and as you related the numbers to me, it appeared to me that I was hit in the range between 130 or 131, I don't remember precisely, up to 134 in that bracket. SPECTER. May I suggest to you that it was 231? CONNALLY. Well, 231 and 234, then. SPECTER. The series under our numbering system starts with a higher number when the car comes around the turn, so when you come out of the sign, which was — CONNALLY. It was just after we came out of the sign, for whatever that sequence of numbers was, and if it was 200, I correct my testimony. It was 231 to about 234. It was within that range. SPECTER. That is all. The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions? DULLES. I have one or two. Governor, were you consulted at all about the security arrangements in connection with the Dallas visit? CONNALLY. No, sir; not really; no, sir; and let me add we normally are not. DULLES. I realize that. CONNALLY. Mr. Dulles, the Secret Service, as you know, comes in, they work with both our department of public safety and the various city police, and the various localities in which we are going. So far as I know, there was complete cooperation on the part of everyone concerned, but I was not consulted. DULLES. I think you mentioned that there was a slight change in plans before the arrival in San Antonio. I don't know whether it affects our investigation at all. Do you recall that? CONNALLY. Yes, sir; I don't know whether it — I don't think it affects the testimony at all. I was merely trying to relate some of the problems that had gone into planning a Presidential trip into four cities. DULLES. Yes. CONNALLY. And trying to arrange this all initially within about a 12-hour period which had been expanded into a little more than that because the President finally agreed to come the day before, and come into San Antonio on the afternoon before the Thomas dinner on Thursday night. DULLES. That was the change you had in mind? CONNALLY. This was the change. This gave us much more latitude because it permitted us to go into San Antonio, which is one of the major stops, which was the major stop, really, because he dedicated the Aerospace Medical Center on Thursday, which meant we did not have to crowd Thursday. But there was a change, but not significant to this investigation. DULLES. Do you happen to recall in general when the decision was reached that the visit would include a trip to Dallas, or was that always a part? CONNALLY. I think it was always a part. DULLES. Of the planning? CONNALLY. Yes; I think it was always a part. There was consideration given, if you had to leave out some place, let us leave out Dallas or let us leave out this one or that one, but there was no question, I don't think, in anyone's mind if we made more than one stop in the big cities that we were going to try to make them all, San Antonio, Houston, Dallas, and Fort Worth. DULLES. You do not recall seeing anyone approach the car outside of those who were in the procession just prior to the shooting, anyone from the sidewalk or along the street there, in the park, which was on one side? CONNALLY. No, sir; I sure don't. DULLES. You and one other happen to be the only witnesses who have indicated that they recognized it as being a rifle shot. The other witness, like you, was a huntsman. Most of the witnesses have indicated they thought it was a backfire; the first shot was a backfire or a firecracker. Can you distinguish, what is there that distinguishes a rifle shot from a backfire or a firecracker? Can you tell, or is it just instinct? CONNALLY. I'm not sure I could accurately describe it. I don't know that I have ever attempted to. I would say a firecracker or a blowout has more of a hollow, bursting kind of sound, as if you popped a balloon, or something of this sort. A rifle shot, on the other hand, to me has more of a ring, kind of an echo to it, more of a metallic sound to it. It is a more penetrating sound than a firecracker or a blowout. It carries — DULLES. That gives me what I had in mind. I realize that. That is all I have, Mr. Chief Justice. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. We are very appreciative of the help you have given us. COOPER. May I ask just one question? The CHAIRMAN. We hate to have you review all of this sordid thing again. COOPER. May I ask a rather general question? I would like to ask, in view of all the discussion which has been had, was there any official discussion of any kind before this trip of which you were aware that there might be some act of violence against the President? CONNALLY. No, sir. COOPER. Thank you. CONNALLY. No; let me say that there have been several news stories COOPER. Yes, I know. CONNALLY. That purportedly quoted me about not wanting the President to ride in a motorcade or caravan in Dallas. That is very true. But the implication was that I had some fear of his life, which is not true. The reason I didn't want him to do it at the time it came up was simply we were running out of time, and that, I thought, we were working him much too hard. This again was before the change, moving San Antonio to Thursday instead of having it all on one day, and I was opposed to a motorcade because they do drain energy, and it takes time to do it, and I didn't think we had the time. But once we got San Antonio moved from Friday to Thursday afternoon, where that was his initial stop in Texas, then we had the time, and I withdrew my objections to a motorcade. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Governor. CONNALLY. Thank you, sir. </DIVISION2><DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2>Mrs. Connally</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> TESTIMONY OF MRS. JOHN B. CONNALLY, JR. The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Connally, would you mind telling us the story of this affair as you heard it, and we will be brief, and we will start right with the shooting itself, and Mr. Specter will also examine you. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mrs. CONNALLY. I do. The CHAIRMAN. Will you sit, please? SPECTER. Are you the wife of Governor John C. Connally? Mrs. CONNALLY. No, I am the wife of Governor John B. Connally. SPECTER. Mrs. Connally, tell us what happened at the time of the assassination. Mrs. CONNALLY. We had just finished the motorcade through the downtown Dallas area, and it had been a wonderful motorcade. The people had been very responsive to the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and we were very pleased, I was very pleased. As we got off Main Street — is that the main thoroughfare? SPECTER. That is the street on which you were proceeding through the town, yes. Mrs. CONNALLY. In fact the receptions had been so good every place that I had showed much restraint by not mentioning something about it before. I could resist no longer. When we got past this area I did turn to the President and said, "Mr. President, you can't say Dallas doesn't love you." Then I don't know how soon, it seems to me it was very soon, that I heard a noise, and not being an expert rifleman, I was not aware that it was a rifle. It was just a frightening noise, and it came from the right. I turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck. SPECTER. And you are indicating with your own hands, two hands crossing over gripping your own neck? Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes; and it seemed to me there was — he made no utterance, no cry. I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down. Then very soon there was the second shot that hit John. As the first shot was hit, and I turned to look at the same time, I recall John saying, "Oh, no, no, no." Then there was a second shot, and it hit John, and as he recoiled to the right, just crumpled like a wounded animal to the right, he said, "My God, they are going to kill us all." I never again — DULLES. To the right was into your arms more or less? Mrs. CONNALLY. No, he turned away from me. I was pretending that I was him. I never again looked in the back seat of the car after my husband was shot. My concern was for him, and I remember that he turned to the right and then just slumped down into the seat, so that I reached over to pull him toward me. I was trying to get him down and me down. The jump seats were not very roomy, so that there were reports that he slid into the seat of the car, which he did not; that he fell over into my lap, which he did not. I just pulled him over into my arms because it would have been impossible to get us really both down with me sitting and me holding him. So that I looked out, I mean as he was in my arms, I put my head down over his head so that his head and my head were right together, and all I could see, too, were the people flashing by. I didn't look back any more. The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us. I thought John had been killed, and then there was some imperceptible movement, just some little something that let me know that there was still some life, and that is when I started saying to him, "It's all right. Be still." Now, I did hear the Secret Service man say, "Pull out of the motorcade. Take us to the nearest hospital," and then we took out very rapidly to the hospital. Just before we got to Parkland, we made a right-hand turn, he must have been going very fast, because as he turned the weight of my husband's body almost toppled us both. SPECTER. How fast do you think he was going? Mrs. CONNALLY. I don't know; very rapidly. The people I could see going by were just rushing. We were just rushing by very fast. We arrived at the hospital and sat there what seemed to me like an interminable time, and from what I know was just a few minutes, but the thoughts that went through my mind were how long must I sit here with this dying man in my arms while everybody is swarming over the President whom I felt very sure was dead, and just when I thought I could sit and wait no longer, John just sort of heaved himself up. He did not rise up in the car, he just sort of heaved himself up, and then collapsed down into the seat. SPECTER. At that time you and Governor Connally were still on the jump seats of the car? Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes, and they had not — the President was still — and Mrs. Kennedy were still in the back. I still had not ever looked back at the back seat after the second shot. I could bear, you know, hear them talking about how sad, and lamenting the fact that the President was in such poor shape and, of course, they didn't know whether he was — I guess they didn't know whether he was alive or dead. SPECTER. Did President Kennedy say anything at all after the shooting? Mrs. CONNALLY. He did not say anything. Mrs. Kennedy said, the first thing I recall her saying was, after the first shot; and I heard her say, "Jack, they have killed my husband," and then there was the second shot, and then after the third shot she said, "They have killed my. husband. I have his brains in my hand," and she repeated that several times, and that was all the conversation. SPECTER. From that point forward you say you had your eyes to the front so you did not have a chance. Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes, because I had him, and I really didn't think about looking back anyway, but I could just see the car rushing along, and people and things rushing past us. I remember thinking what a terrible sight this must be to those people, to see these two shot-up men, and it was a terribly horrifying thing, and I think that is about as I remember it. SPECTER. What happened then after you got to the hospital? Mrs. CONNALLY. We got to the hospital and, like I said, John heaved himself over. They still could not seem to get Mrs. Kennedy or the President out of the back of the car, but someone scooped him up in their arms and put him on a stretcher. There were two stretchers there, and then they took him off immediately to the emergency room, and they ran down the hall with the stretcher, and I just ran along with them. They took him into the emergency room, and right behind us came the President on a stretcher, and they took him and put him in a room to the right. There was much commotion and confusion. There were lots of what I assumed were Secret Service men rushing in with machine guns, I guess, or tommy guns. I am not real sure, they were big arms of some sort. There was no one — there were lots of people across the hall. There was no one with me and, of course, my thoughts then were, I guess like any other woman, I wondered if all the doctors were in the room on the left, and they were not taking too good care of my husband on the right. I shouldn't have worried about that, should I? I knew no one in the hospital and I was alone. Twice I got up and opened the door into the emergency room, and I could hear John and I could see him moving, and I knew then that he was still alive. I guess that time was short, too. It seemed endless. Somebody rushed out, I thought it was a nurse, and handed me one cuff link. I later read that it was a lady doctor. They took him out of there very soon up to surgery, and I just left with him and waited in an office. Do you know whose office I was in? It was where you came to me. Dr. GREGORY. Dr. Jenkins' office. Dr. SHAW. Yes. You were either in the anesthesia office or in the room that is part of the recovery room. Was it the same place where you later stayed, Mrs. Connally? Mrs. CONNALLY. No. Dr. GREGORY. I think it was back in Dr. Jenkins' office. That is where I believe I first saw you. Mrs. CONNALLY. I believe that is right. As soon as Dr. Shaw found that he had some encouraging news, that the wounds were not as extensive as he had thought they could be or might be, he sent that word to me from the operating room, and that was good news. I then asked if I couldn't go see Mrs. Kennedy, and they told me that she had left the hospital. SPECTER. Were you visited at the hospital by Mrs. Johnson? Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes, I was. But I assume that was before, since they left together, not much of a visit. She came by and we didn't have to say much, and then they left. SPECTER. Mrs. Connally, what was your impression, if any, as to the source of the shots? Mrs. CONNALLY. Well, I had no thought of whether they were high or low or where. They just came from the right; sounded like they were to my right. SPECTER. How many did you hear in all? Mrs. CONNALLY. I heard three. SPECTER. What is your best estimate on the time that passed from the first to the last shot? Mrs. CONNALLY. Very short. It seemed to me that there was less time between the first and the second than between the second and the third. SPECTER. About how fast do you think the car was going then? Mrs. CONNALLY. I don't really know. Not too fast. It was sort of a letdown time for us. We could relax for, we thought we could, for just a minute. SPECTER. And you mean by that since the major part of the crowd had been passed? Mrs. CONNALLY. We had gone by them. The underpass was in sight, and I knew that as soon as we passed through the underpass that then we would be going straight to the Trade Mart for the luncheon, and I felt like we would then be moving fast and not have people on all sides of us. SPECTER. Did you see the films this morning here in the Commission office? Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes, I did. SPECTER. Did you have an opinion as to which frame it was that Governor Connally was shot? Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes. I was in agreement with the Governor. I am not sure I remember the numbers so correct me, but I thought at the time that it was that 229 — it could have been then through the next three or four frames. SPECTER. Do you have anything — Mrs. CONNALLY. They were blurred. SPECTER. With respect to the source, you say you thought it was to the right — did you have any reaction as to whether they were from the front, rear or side? Mrs. CONNALLY. I thought it was from back of us. SPECTER. To the rear? Mrs. CONNALLY. To the right; that is right. SPECTER. Did you have any reaction as to the question of elevation or level? Mrs. CONNALLY. No, I didn't. SPECTER. Do you have anything else to add which you think would be helpful to the Commission in any way? Mrs. CONNALLY. I don't think so. The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions? Senator, do you have any? Do you have any, Mr. Dulles? DULLES. I just have one question. Mr. Connally, on one point your testimony differs from a good many others as to the timing of the shots. I think you said that there seemed to be more time between the second and third than between the first and the second; is that your recollection? Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes. DULLES. That is, the space between the first and the second was less than between the second and the third? You realize I just wanted to get whether I had heard you correctly on that. Mrs. CONNALLY. You did. DULLES. Thank you very much. Mrs. CONNALLY. Thank you. The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Connally, thank you very much. We hate to have you review all this in your mind's eye again, but it was necessary to have your testimony, and you were very kind to come. Mrs. CONNALLY. Thank you. The CHAIRMAN. We appreciate it very much, indeed. (Whereupon, at 5:45 p.m., the President's Commission adjourned.) </DIVISION2><DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2>R. Kellerman - SA in charge</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> TESTIMONY OF ROY H. KELLERMAN, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, the Commission will be in order. Will you be seated, please? Would you state the names of the witnesses who are to be heard today, Mr. Specter? SPECTER. Yes, Your Honor; the witnesses are to be Roy Kellerman of the Secret Service, William R. Greer of the Secret Service, Clinton Hill, also of the Secret Service, and Rufus Youngblood, representative of the Secret Service. The CHAIRMAN. Very well, gentlemen; you know the purposing, and we will call first, Mr. who? SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman is our first witness. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Kellerman. Gentlemen, I want to announce that today it will be necessary for me to spend practically all of the morning with the Supreme Court. and in my absence Congressman Ford will conduct the hearing today because he can be here practically all the time. I will be here in and out throughout the day, however. Congressman Ford, will you take over please? FORD. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Will you proceed? I believe the first thing is to swear the witness. SPECTER. Very good, sir. FORD. Do you promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, so help you God? KELLERMAN. I do, sir. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please? KELLERMAN. My name is Roy H. Kellerman. SPECTER. By whom are you employed, Mr. Kellerman? KELLERMAN. I am employed as a special agent for the Secret Service. SPECTER. How old are you? KELLERMAN. I am 48 years old. . SPECTER. Married? KELLERMAN. Pardon? SPECTER. Are you married? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; I am married and have two daughters; their ages are 20 and 17. SPECTER. Where do you reside? KELLERMAN. Bethesda, Md SPECTER. What is your current duty station with the Secret Service? KELLERMAN. My current duty station is assistant special agent in charge of the White House detail. SPECTER. How long have you been with the Secret Service? KELLERMAN. This is my 23rd year. SPECTER. Will you sketch in a general outline what your duties have been with the Secret Service since the time you started with them, please? KELLERMAN. I was appointed an agent with the Secret Service in Detroit, Mich., the 19th of December 1941. I was transferred to Washington, D.C., the field office, on February 9, 1942. Prior to that I had a 30-day assignment in the office of Cincinnati, Ohio, temporarily. I worked in the Washington field office from the 9th of February 1942 until the middle of March 1942, whereby I was temporarily transferred to the White House detail. This transfer became permanent, effective, I believe it was, the 17th of April or the latter part of April in 1942, still as a special agent. At the White House detail we work on shifts around the clock, protecting the president and his family. I was a member of one of those three shifts. Presently, these shifts change on a two-weekly basis, from 8 to 4, 4 to midnight, and midnight to 8. I remained on the White House detail until February 7, 1951, when I was transferred to Indianapolis, Ind. Prior to that time I had received enough seniority whereby I grew up on this shift from the bottom to the top, and was in charge of one of the shifts prior to my departure to Indianapolis. This was fieldwork in Indiana. On February 1, 1955, I was transferred back to the White House detail. On my return I was comparable to like, let's say, the No. 2 man of a shift. I was not in charge of it. From 1955, I believe a couple of years later a vacancy occurred, a top man of that shift left and I received his position. That title was assistant to the special Service on the White House protective detail charge. On October 1 of 1962 a vacancy was opened in the three top officials of the White House detail, which are comprised of, let me say, the special agent in charge, who has two assistants; one vacancy occurred. It was the oldest man on the White House detail; it was given to me and that is why today I have the title of assistant special agent in charge. You at that time governed each man on your shift. You were in charge of him. SPECTER. Now, since you brought us up to 1955, have your duties remained the same since that time? KELLERMAN. I should bring you up to 1964. In 1955, I was transferred back to the White House detail, remained on that status on shift work until 1962, whereas I am now an assistant special agent in charge, which duties are the overseeing and the complete responsibility of the entire White House detail. SPECTER. What is your educational background, KELLERMAN. I am a high school graduate only. SPECTER. What year did you graduate from high school? KELLERMAN. 1933. SPECTER. What were your activities between graduation from high school and the time you joined the Secret Service, please? KELLERMAN. In October of 1937 I completed the training with the Michigan State Police. I was sworn in as a trooper. I remained with the Michigan State Police until December 18, 1941, when I resigned and was appointed to the U.S. Secret Service. SPECTER. How were you employed or occupied from the time of graduation from high school until the time you joined the Michigan State Police? KELLERMAN. 1932, there wasn't too much work; 1935 was my first work with the Dodge Corp. of the Chrysler people in Detroit. SPECTER. How long did you work there, sir? KELLERMAN. Three years, off and on. SPECTER. You described in a general way the organization of the Secret Service, on the White House protective detail. Who is the special agent in charge of the detail for this trip of President Kennedy, for the trip to Texas in those 2 days? KELLERMAN. Mr. Gerald A. Behn, sir. SPECTER. Was he the special agent in charge back on November 22, 1963? KELLERMAN. He was. SPECTER. How many shifts are there? KELLERMAN. Three shifts, sir. SPECTER. And approximately how many men are assigned to each shift? KELLERMAN. Ten men on each shift, sir. SPECTER. What were your specific duties back on November 22 of 1963? KELLERMAN. My specific duty, gentlemen, on the 22nd of November of 1963, I was in charge of the detail for this trip of President Kennedy, for the trip to Texas in those 2 days. SPECTER. How did you personally make the trip to Texas? KELLERMAN. I rode on the President's plane on the entire tour. SPECTER. Would you outline in a general way the times of departure and arrival on the trip to Texas up until the morning of November 22, please? KELLERMAN. I just don't have the time we left Washington, D.C. SPECTER. Without the precise times; just in a general way. KELLERMAN. All right. We departed in the morning from Washington. Our first stop was in San Antonio, Tex. SPECTER. Which morning was that, sir? KELLERMAN. It was November 21; it was at San Antonio, Tex. that we picked up the then Vice President Johnson. The two people continued on this tour of the State in separate planes. During our stay in San Antonio, we then flew from San Antonio to Houston, Tex. There were ceremonies there, and the program there which had been set up. From Houston we flew into Fort Worth, Tex. where we remained overnight on November 21. We arrived at the Texas Hotel, it was a little after 11 o'clock in the evening. There were no activities until the following morning, November 22. SPECTER. What time did the activities start the following morning? KELLERMAN. On November 22, the activities started at around 8:25 in the morning when the President, accompanied by the then Vice President Johnson, and a few congressional leaders walked out the front door, across this street which was a parking lot, and a few minutes' speech was made to the gathering there. It was a light drizzle at the time. From there we returned to the hotel and he attended a breakfast given by the chamber of commerce and, I believe it was, a citizens group of Fort Worth. On completion of the breakfast he returned to his suite. The weather was then changing. It had quit raining and it looked like it was going to break out and be a real beautiful day. In the neighborhood of 10 o'clock in the morning I received a call from Mr. Lawson, Special Agent Lawson, who had the advance from Dallas, Tex. SPECTER. Mr. Lawson was with the Secret Service, was he? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; he is. He asked me to determine whether the bubbletop car that the President would ride in in Dallas that day should have the top down or remain up. SPECTER. Let me interrupt you there for just a minute, Mr. Kellerman. I show you a photograph which has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 344. Are you able to identify that picture and the automobile in that picture? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; this is the 1961 Lincoln Continental four-door convertible bubbletop. It is a special car. SPECTER. For the purpose of the record, how many doors does that car have? KELLERMAN. This vehicle has four doors. SPECTER. And in the posture of the picture identified as Commission Exhibit 344, is the top up or down? , KELLERMAN. The top is down, sir. SPECTER. And what top does that automobile have? KELLERMAN. This top is a plastic top. From the rear of the passenger all the way to the windshield there are four sections of plastic glass. The one that comes over the top of the passengers in the back seat, two little sections that come over the two doors, and one over the driver and passenger in the front seat. SPECTER. In what way is that attached, if any, to the car? KELLERMAN. Securely bolted, screwed. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, may I ask that the Exhibit 344 be introduced formally in evidence, please? FORD. It will be so admitted. (The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 344 for identification and received in evidence.) SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 345. Are you able to tell us what that depicts? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; this is the same vehicle as mentioned in 344. The difference being the top is up and there is a covering, a cloth covering that also fits over this plastic top. SPECTER. And Exhibit No. 345 is taken from what angle, Mr. Kellerman? KELLERMAN. From the rear, sir. SPECTER. As contrasted with Exhibit No. 344, which is taken from what angle? KELLERMAN. This is from the right side. SPECTER. I ask that Exhibit 345 be introduced, if the Commission please. FORD. So admitted. (The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 345 for identification and received in evidence.) SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 346, Mr. Kellerman, and ask you if you can tell us what that depicts. KELLERMAN. This picture depicts the interior of this same automobile. It has a rear solid seat; there are two other jump seats that can be folded forward in the rear and the complete solid front seat for the driver and passenger. This is the same vehicle. SPECTER. Will you describe what, if anything, is present between the front seat and the rear seat area? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. This metal partition that is erected in back of the driver, between the driver and the passengers in the rear seat, is a metal framework that goes over the car. It has four holes in it. These holes are utilized by the President for parades. As an example, say it was used in Washington where you had an official visitor, and in using one of the streets here as your parade route, he and his guest would stand in this car where the people could view them a little better than sitting in the rear seat. SPECTER. Where is that metal bar positioned with respect to the front seat? KELLERMAN. It is positioned over the front seat; the top of this bar would be 4 or 5 inches over my head. SPECTER. Is it directly over the back portion of the front seat? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Directly over the front seat. SPECTER. And you describe it as 4 or 5 inches over your head. Can you give us an estimate of the distance above the top of the front seat? KELLERMAN. Oh, I am guessing in the neighborhood of 15, 18 inches. SPECTER. What is the width of that metal bar? KELLERMAN. The bar, 4 to 6 inches, I would say. SPECTER. Can you tell us approximately how wide the automobile itself is? KELLERMAN. No; I can't. SPECTER. With respect to the automobile, are there any running boards? KELLERMAN. There are no running boards. SPECTER. Is there any place on the car where someone can stand up and ride as it proceeds in motion? KELLERMAN. Yes; on the rear of the vehicle, sir. SPECTER. How many such positions are there? KELLERMAN. There is a step on each side of the spare tire, one man on each one. SPECTER. And is there any facility for holding on with a man riding in those positions? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; there is a metal arm erected on the trunk where a man can hold on while standing on the rear of the car. SPECTER. All right. May it please the Commission, I move that Exhibit 346 be introduced in evidence. FORD. It will be so admitted. (The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 346 for identification and received in evidence.) SPECTER. With reference to the bubble top which you have heretofore described, of what is that composed? KELLERMAN. It is composed of plastic, clear plastic substance. Its use would be for a weather matter whereby the President or his occupants can see out. It is not an enclosed car. SPECTER. Is it bulletproof? KELLERMAN. It is not bulletproof. SPECTER. Is it bullet resistant in any way? KELLERMAN. It's not bullet resistant. SPECTER. Could you describe in a general way at this point what efforts, if any, have been made to obtain a bulletproof clear top for the President's automobile? KELLERMAN. Presently? SPECTER. Presently or heretofore. KELLERMAN. I am going to have to go in the present day. SPECTER. Fine. KELLERMAN. This same vehicle, I understand, is being completed with a bullet-resistant top and sides. FORD. Can you explain the difference between bullet resistant and the existing kind of the top? KELLERMAN. I can't; I really can't. I have been behind on this thing and I am at a loss for a better answer. FORD. Could the present top deflect in any way, destroy the accuracy of a shot? KELLERMAN. This would be a guess, Mr. Congressman. I would think that it would be deterred for, let's say, the velocity of a missile coming in at great speed, I think it would deter it; I don't think it would eliminate — it still would enter the top. FORD. The vehicle. KELLERMAN. I am sure; yes, sir. FORD. But as far as you know the top that was available would not impede the projectile? Do you know whether or not it would deflect its accuracy? KELLERMAN. Well, I have tried to study that, sir. The angle of the hack as an example which is, what degree I don't recall, hoping that — of course, it was now known to be an upshot into the vehicle hoping that it would deter its force and so forth, but I really don't know. I kind of doubt it. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, in describing the top as being not bulletproof and not bullet resistant, state whether you are describing the top which they are currently working on or the top which was present at the time of November 22, 1963? KELLERMAN. That is the top that they are currently working on. SPECTER. Well, as to the bubble top which accompanied this car on November 22, 1963, was that bulletproof or bullet resistant? KELLERMAN. It was not; neither. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not an effort is being made at the present time to develop a bullet-resistant or bulletproof top. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it is. SPECTER. Are you personally familiar with the progress of that effort? KELLERMAN. I am not, sir. SPECTER. Do you know how the President's automobile was transported from Washington, D.C., to Texas? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. The President's vehicle was transported to San Antonio by cargo aircraft. It was flown to San Antonio a day before the President arrived. It was then flown from San Antonio to Dallas where it was used on November 22. This vehicle was not used in the other two stops at Houston and Fort Worth. FORD. When you say cargo aircraft — KELLERMAN. Like a C-130, sir. FORD. A Government? KELLERMAN. You are right, sir; that is right. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, what were the President's activities, if you know immediately prior to the time he departed from Fort Worth? COOPER. Might I ask just one question? SPECTER. Yes, sir. COOPER. Do you know whether or not prior to November 22 the President's car had ever been equipped with a top which had the capacity to stop or deflect a bullet? KELLERMAN. Never had been, Senator. COOPER. There was none in existence? KELLERMAN. No, sir. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, what were the President's activities immediately before departing from Fort Worth on the morning of November 27? KELLERMAN. First he walked from the hotel across the street, spoke to a group that were in a parking lot, with other congressional people there in Texas. From there he walked right into the hotel and entered the ballroom where a breakfast was held, given to him by the chamber of commerce and, I believe, the citizens group in Fort Worth. From there he returned to his suite because there was time left before his departure for Dallas. It was up there in the neighborhood of 10 o'clock in the morning that Special Agent Lawson called me from Dallas asking me to verify whether the top should be put on — should remain on the President's car or should be taken off due to the change of weather. It had been raining slightly in Dallas at that time. I said, "One moment and I will check with you one way or the other." As I said earlier, the weather was clearing in Fort Worth; it was going to be a nice day. I asked Mr. Kenneth O'Donnell, who is President Kennedy's appointment secretary: "Mr. O'Donnell," I said, "the weather; it is slightly raining in Dallas, predictions of clearing up. Do you desire to have the bubbletop on the President's car or do you, or would you desire to have it removed for this parade over to the Trade Mart?" His instructions to me were, "If the weather is clear and it is not raining, have that bubbletop off," and that is exactly what I relayed to Mr. Lawson. SPECTER. Now, at about what time did President Kennedy depart from Fort Worth? KELLERMAN. We were airborne from Fort Worth at 11:20 in the morning. SPECTER. In what plane were you airborne? KELLERMAN. In the President's special plane, sir. SPECTER. What time did you arrive in that plane in Dallas? KELLERMAN. We arrived in Dallas, Love Field, at 11:40 a.m. SPECTER. Describe in a general way what President Kennedy's activities were at Love Field, please. KELLERMAN. Very well. May I add this: Again I said there were two planes in this program. The then Vice President Johnson would be in a separate plane. He would land ahead of us by a minute or two, all right. He is in Dallas by the time we arrive at 11:40 a.m. As we are spotted on the apron at Love Field and when the ramp is pulled forward, the Vice President, then Vice President Johnson and Mrs. Johnson, together with a selected group of people would form a reception committee from the end of the ramp straight out to where the motorcade was in place. At 11:40 a.m., as I said, the President and Mrs. Kennedy left that plane, met these people. As we finished greeting these folks here, there was an elderly lady wheeled up in a wheelchair; her name I do not know; the both of them met her. By this time the people are starting to get in their automobiles for this trip into town. The President then noticed that there was quite a gathering of people at this airport in back of a fenced area, and, with her, they both walked over to this crowded area and started shaking hands and greeting these people who had been there perhaps some time before we got in. SPECTER. By "her," who do you mean, sir? KELLERMAN. Mrs. Kennedy; I am sorry. SPECTER. What would you estimate the crowd to be? KELLERMAN. In the thousands; I would say there were two, three, four thousand people there. SPECTER. Approximately how long did the greeting of the crowd at Love Field last, Mr. Kellerman? KELLERMAN. Fifteen minutes. The motorcade left Love Field at 11:55. SPECTER. Approximately how many cars were there in that motorcade? KELLERMAN. At least 15. SPECTER. What was the first car in line? KELLERMAN. The first car in line, sir, was what we call the police pilot car. The duties of these police officers in that car — they would drive ahead. SPECTER. Do you personally know who was in that car? KELLERMAN. No, sir. SPECTER. How far ahead of the regular motorcade were they to be? KELLERMAN. They could be several blocks ahead of us. SPECTER. What is the general purpose of that pilot car? KELLERMAN. The purpose of that pilot car is to clear the roadway and instruct the officers along the route that the President is in motion and coming in back of them. Next you will find a small group of motorcycles. SPECTER. Do you know how many motorcycles there were in Dallas on that day? KELLERMAN. No; I don't. SPECTER. Will you tell us what the custom is with respect to motorcycles? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; those motorcycles that would be in back of that police car were to assist any officers along the way in any disturbance that they would run into before we got to that point, or secondly, in the event that we needed them back on our car they could be called, utilized. SPECTER. What is the next car in line? KELLERMAN. The next car is the lead car. That car on that day was driven by Chief Curry of the Dallas Police Department. His occupants in that car was Special Agent Winston Lawson, who was carrying a portable radio with him. Also in this car was Special Agent in Charge Verne Sorrels, in charge of our Dallas office. The other occupant, I believe, was a deputy sheriff. SPECTER. Was it Sheriff Decker, perhaps, of Dallas County? KELLERMAN. The name doesn't reach me, sir; I am sorry. SPECTER. You described a radio. Will you tell us a little more fully what radio transmission there was in the motorcade, please? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. This lead car which Mr. Lawson was in has a portable radio. The President's car is next. This is equipped with a permanent set radio on the same frequency as that gentleman up front. The next car is our Secret Service follow-up car which has a permanent installation. The Secret Service car, as I say, is equipped with a permanent installation which connects the President's car and the lead car. The next car in back of our Secret Service car was the then Vice President Johnson. The Secret Service agent in that car had a portable radio that he could read all three of us ahead. His car following was a small Secret Service follow-up car, and they, too, had a portable set, which could read all four. So we had a net of five on our own frequency. In the police cars they had their own city police frequency radios. SPECTER. How many frequencies were used by your own network? KELLERMAN. One. FORD. Do you have an alternative frequency, emergency frequency? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; we do. We have two of them. SPECTER. What automobile came behind the lead automobile? KELLERMAN. The President's car. SPECTER. Describe the occupants of that car, indicating their positions, if you can, please. KELLERMAN. Yes. The President — President Kennedy sat on the right rear seat. Next to him on the left seat was Mrs. Kennedy. On the right jump seat in front of President Kennedy was Governor Connally. On the left jump seat in front of Mrs. Kennedy was Mrs. Connally. I sat on the right passenger seat of the driver's seat, and Special Agent William Greet drove the vehicle. [Exhibit 697] SPECTER. How far were you behind the lead car? KELLERMAN. No more than two or three car lengths. COOPER. What is that? I didn't hear it. KELLERMAN. No more than two or three car lengths, Senator Cooper. SPECTER. What car immediately followed the President's car? KELLERMAN. Our own Secret Service follow-up car. SPECTER. What kind of a car was that? KELLERMAN. This is a 1956 Cadillac, four-door touring car with the top down. SPECTER. Was that also a special automobile flown KELLERMAN. This is a special automobile, flown in with the President's car; yes, sir; that is correct. SPECTER. And who were the occupants of that car, indicating their positions in the car? KELLERMAN. All during this ride in from Love Field Special Agent Sam Kinney was the driver of this automobile. The assistant to the Special Agent in Charge Emory Roberts was sitting in the front seat, the passenger side. This car has running boards. Standing on the front of the left running board was Special Agent Clinton Hill. In back of him on the rear of that same running board on that side was Special Agent William McIntyre. On the right running board standing forward was Special Agent John Ready, and standing in back of him on the rear of the right running board was Special Agent Paul Landis. SPECTER. Did that automobile have jump seats? KELLERMAN. This automobile has jump seats. SPECTER. And what people occupied the jump seats? KELLERMAN. It was occupied by Mr. Kenneth O'Donnell, who was the appointment secretary of President Kennedy, and Mr. Dave Powers. SPECTER. Do you know which sat on which side? KELLERMAN. Mr. O'Donnell sat on the left; Mr. Powers sat on the right. SPECTER. Who was in the back seat of that automobile? KELLERMAN. The back seat of that automobile on the right side was Special Agent George Hickey, and on the left side Special Agent Glen Bennett. SPECTER. How were the special agents in the follow-up car armed, if at all? KELLERMAN. Each agent carries his own gun. This is a 4-inch revolver on their person. SPECTER. Would that apply to you and Mr. Greer as well? KELLERMAN. Absolutely. SPECTER. Were there any other arms in the President's follow-up car? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; in this follow-up car we have what is now known as an AR-15. This is a rifle, and it is on all movements; this vehicle is out of the case; it won't be shown; it could be laying flat on the floor, but she is ready to go. SPECTER. Now, how far behind the President's car did the Presidential follow-up car follow? KELLERMAN. Not knowing how far it was behind, I would say, from the practice of that driver that he has, five feet would be a maximum. SPECTER. What car was in the motorcade immediately behind the President's follow-up car? KELLERMAN. That was Vice President Johnson's car then. SPECTER. What kind of a car was that on that particular day? KELLERMAN. This was a Lincoln four-door Continental convertible. This was a four-door car, with no top on it. SPECTER. Is that a special car, also, or is that obtained on the market? KELLERMAN. This is not a special car; it is a car that is on the market. SPECTER. What car followed the Vice President's car? KELLERMAN. The car following his car was a police car. It was driven by a member of the Dallas Police Force, or I just don't recall. I am sorry. SPECTER. Do you have personal knowledge or detail of the occupants of the Vice President's car? KELLERMAN. Yes; I do. SPECTER. Who was present there? KELLERMAN. Special Agent Rufus Youngblood sat in the front seat on the right side. In back of him on the right side and the rear was the then Vice President Johnson. Next to him was Mrs. Johnson, and next to Mrs. Johnson was Senator Yarborough. SPECTER. Was Vice President Johnson seated on the right side or the left side of the rear seat? KELLERMAN. On the right side, sir. SPECTER. Were there jump seats in the Vice President's car? KELLERMAN. No, sir. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of the driver of the Vice President's car? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Who was that? KELLERMAN. That was Mr. Hurchel Jacks. He is a Dallas police officer. SPECTER. Might he be a Texas State police officer? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; you are right. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of all of the individuals in the Vice President's follow-up car? KELLERMAN. Not the driver. The agents, yes. SPECTER. Who were they, sir? KELLERMAN. Special Agent Thomas L. Johns, Special Agent Warren Taylor, and I believe that is all. SPECTER. Are you able to indicate their precise positions? KELLERMAN. No, no. SPECTER. Now, what car, if you know, followed the Vice President's follow-up car? KELLERMAN. That was car — as an example, car No. 1, which would be a congressional car; the occupants I do not know at the present time. SPECTER. And behind that car, describe in a general way the balance of the motorcade, if you will, please. KELLERMAN. All right. The balance of the motorcade, the back of that car No. 1 which would be the congressional people would be two press cars, one covering the wire people, and one would be the photographic group. Then you would have a series of guest cars, and then a press bus. And then a police car follow-up, bringing up the entire motorcade. SPECTER. You described the motorcycles which followed the pilot car. Were there any other motorcycles in the motorcade? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; we had four other motorcycles opposite the back wheel of the President's vehicle, sir. SPECTER. Were those on both sides or on each side? KELLERMAN. On each side; two on each side. SPECTER. Were there any other motorcycles in the balance of the motorcade? KELLERMAN. Not that I recall. SPECTER. At what speed did the motorcade proceed at the various times en route, say, from Love Field down to the downtown section of Dallas, Tex.? KELLERMAN. As we left Love Field, the driveway from this apron on the field was sort of a winding thing, and there were many people that gathered on the roadside to view him as they passed. I don't think we traveled more than 12 to 15 miles until we left the airport apron proper. SPECTER. Twelve to fifteen miles per hour? KELLERMAN. Per hour. SPECTER. Yes. KELLERMAN. Then, as we were in the opening between there and the city limits of Dallas, we could have gone 25 to 30. SPECTER. What was the size of the crowd at that specific point? KELLERMAN. Nothing in between then until we hit the outskirts of the city. Of course, then you got into a residential, a school, area where all the people were out on the curb line. SPECTER. What was the speed when you reached that area? KELLERMAN. Then we would reduce the speed down to 15 miles an hour. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the minimum speed traveled until you reached the downtown area? KELLERMAN. We could have been going 25 to 30 at several times, sir. SPECTER. What were the crowds like in the downtown area itself? KELLERMAN. A lot of people. [Exhibit 698] SPECTER. What was the speed of the motorcade when you came into the downtown area? KELLERMAN. It would be reduced down to 10 to 15 miles an hour, sir. SPECTER. Were there any unusual occurrences en route from Love Field until, say, you got to the downtown area of Dallas, Tex.? KELLERMAN. As we were on the outskirts of this town and apparently reaching a crowded area there were a group of youngsters on the right side of the car curb-line-wise, that had a large sign, oh, perhaps the width of the two windows there, that said, "Please, Mr. President, stop and shake our hands," and he saw this and he called to the driver and said, "Stop," he said, "call these people over and I will shake their hands," which we did. The entire motorcade stopped. I got out of the car and stood alongside of it while these people were right up on me. The agents who were on the follow-up car, all around it. And then after a few seconds he said, "All right; let's travel on." SPECTER. You say the agents in the follow-up car moved up at the stopping? KELLERMAN. Always, sir. SPECTER. Specifically, what did they do on that occasion? KELLERMAN. They crowded right in between the President, the car, and the people. SPECTER. Did the President actually leave the car? KELLERMAN. No. SPECTER. And how long did that stop last? KELLERMAN. A matter of seconds. SPECTER. Was there any other unusual occurrence en route to the downtown area itself? KELLERMAN. No; I can recall, however, one small affair. I think we were in the heart of Dallas on this street when a young boy jumped off the curb and apparently he was thinking of running over to the President's car and shaking his hands when one of our people left the follow-up car and put him back on the curb, and that all happened in motion so there was nothing out of the way. SPECTER. I show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 347 and ask you if you are at this time able to tell us what that photograph represents. The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, may I interrupt at this time to ask to be excused? I have a session in the Supreme Court, but I will be back later. FORD. Thank you very much, Mr. Chief Justice. (Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.) KELLERMAN. This is an aerial photo of the downtown parade. SPECTER. Are you able to identify the street on which you proceeded coming into the area depicted by that photograph? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. This is — this would be Main Street as we came into the heart of Dallas. SPECTER. I think it might be helpful if we marked that as Main Street if we can get a pencil or pen that will mark on that. CRAIG. May I suggest the witness mark it? SPECTER. I think it is a good idea. Will you mark the street which you have identified as Main Street? (Witness marking.) SPECTER. Will you also mark. KELLERMAN. We were traveling — SPECTER. The street onto which you turned from Main Street? KELLERMAN. As we were coming up from Main Street or down, either way. SPECTER. In what general direction were you proceeding on Main Street? KELLERMAN. This was a westerly direction. SPECTER. Would you put an arrow indicating which way is north on the map? That is a general northerly direction on the map. (Witness indicating.) SPECTER. Will you mark an arrow on Main Street showing the direction on which you were proceeding on Main? And how far did you proceed on Main Street to what street? KELLERMAN. Elm Street, sir. This is a very short block, maybe a couple of hundred feet at the most. SPECTER. My question was to what street did you proceed on Main? You then drove to what street? KELLERMAN. Houston Street. SPECTER. Which way did you turn onto Houston Street? KELLERMAN. Turned right, which would be north. SPECTER. Will you mark the street that you have told us would be Houston Street? (Witness indicating.) SPECTER. How far did you proceed down Houston Street? KELLERMAN. I am sure it wasn't more than 200 feet at the most. It was a real short block. SPECTER. What street then did you turn onto as you turned off of Houston Street? KELLERMAN. From Houston we turned onto Elm, which was a rather sharp turn with a downgrade, sir. SPECTER. Was that a turn on the left or the right? KELLERMAN. To the left, sir. SPECTER. I ask that Exhibit 347 be admitted in evidence, may it please the Commission. FORD. It will be admitted. SPECTER. I now show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 348, Mr. Kellerman, and I ask you if you are able at this time to identify what building is in that picture? KELLERMAN. This building right straight ahead in the photo — I couldn't have told you on the day of the 22nd of November what it was, but as of now this is the Texas Depository Building. SPECTER. Is that the building known as the Texas School Book Depository Building? KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. (The photograph, marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 347 and 348 for identification and received in evidence.) SPECTER. Will you mark on Exhibit 347 — we have 348, we will get 348 back in a moment. I would like to have you mark in the aerial shot the precise location of that building with the initials "TS." (Witness marks.) SPECTER. For the written part of our record will you describe how many stories high the Texas School Book Depository building is? KELLERMAN. This is a seven-story building. From here it appears to be a rather square-type constructed. SPECTER. All right. As you were proceeding in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street, can you describe the layout of the street, indicating first the approximate width of that street? KELLERMAN. Houston Street is a rather wide city street similar to anything we have here in Washington, really, and being in the heart of the business section, I would say that it was a six-lane street at the time. SPECTER. What was on your right as you proceeded down Houston Street? KELLERMAN. The buildings. SPECTER. And how about on your left? KELLERMAN. On my left it was open. SPECTER. As you turned left onto Elm Street, will you describe what was on your right? KELLERMAN. As we turned left onto Elm Street and left this building that we are speaking of here. SPECTER. Is that the Texas School Book Depository Building? KELLERMAN. Yes; then your area became clear. SPECTER. On the right? KELLERMAN. On the right, sir. This was an open field area with a hill. Now, there were, if I recall correctly, just at the brink of the hill, right beyond this building in question, there was a small white — how can I describe it? SPECTER. A little park area? KELLERMAN. A little park area; that is right. And beyond it it was all open, SPECTER. What was on your left at about that time as you proceeded down Elm Street? KELLERMAN. Right. As we turned left on Elm Street off Houston, this, too, was a little plaza area, and kind of a triangular thing where the street was on the opposite side; this is an apparently one-way street, and directly to our left as we turned you had to view, this looked like a little one-story plaza building or structure. SPECTER. To complete the scene, as you looked ahead of you down Elm Street what, if anything, did you see immediately in front of you? KELLERMAN. Yes. First thing that I saw was that the road was going to turn, and then a little further ahead we had a viaduct which we were going under. SPECTER. Do you know what name the Dallas Texans give to that viaduct? KELLERMAN. No; I really don't. SPECTER. Have you heard it described since as the triple overpass? KELLERMAN. No; I haven't. SPECTER. What was the approximate width of Elm Street in lanes of travel, if you recall? KELLERMAN. It is at least three lanes, sir. SPECTER. And describe the terrain, whether it was smooth, level or in what way you went as you went down Elm Street. KELLERMAN. As we went down Elm Street, there was a smooth road and the terrain on each side was a grassy plotted area, a very cleared-off area, visibility tremendous. SPECTER. And describe the composure of the crowds at that time. KELLERMAN. As we turned north on to Houston Street, this was primarily the end of the crowd in Dallas, Tex.; in the downtown section, there were still a few on the sidewalk until we got to Elm Street. As we turned in a northerly direction to Elm Street, which would be on our left, then the crowds just diminished. They were spotty, standing on the grassy plot. They were not on the side of the street. In fact, there were just a matter of a handful, that was all, and we were through it. SPECTER. Do you know what time it was when you got to the intersection of Houston and Elm on November 22? KELLERMAN. Not at Houston and Elm; no. No; I don't SPECTER. What was the speed of the motorcade, Mr. Kellerman, as you were proceeding down Main Street at about the time you turned right onto Houston? KELLERMAN. Ten, fifteen, no more; real parade speed. SPECTER. How far ahead of you was the lead car at that time? KELLERMAN. Again, it was four or five car lengths in front. SPECTER. Do you know how far behind you the President's follow-up car was as you turned right onto Houston from Main Street? KELLERMAN. No; I don't, but I am positive it was right on our rear wheels. SPECTER. All right. Now, as you turned left off Houston onto Elm, what is your best estimate of the speed of the President's automobile at that time? KELLERMAN. As we turned onto Elm Street and the crowd, we were through the section of Dallas; we might have had — the driver picked it up because we were all through. Purely a guess, we could have been going at the most 25. SPECTER. What would your estimate, your minimum estimate, of the speed be? KELLERMAN. Fifteen. SPECTER. As you turned left onto Elm Street, how far were you behind the lead car at that point? KELLERMAN. I am going to say the same; three to five car lengths, but I can, to go a little further, I can see this car ahead of me. He is not running away from us. SPECTER. How about the pilot car; was that car in sight? KELLERMAN. No; that I didn't see; I didn't see it. SPECTER. Do you know from your personal observation at the time you turned left onto Elm Street how far the President's follow-up car was behind you at that point? KELLERMAN. Not from personal observation. SPECTER. All right. Now, describe what occurred as you proceeded down Elm Street after turning off of Houston. KELLERMAN. As we turned off Houston onto Elm and made the short little dip to the left going down grade, as I said, we were away from buildings, and were — there was a sign on the side of the road which I don't recall what it was or what it said, but we no more than passed that and you are out in the open, and there is a report like a firecracker, pop. And I turned my head to the right because whatever this noise was I was sure that it came from the right and perhaps into the rear, and as I turned my head to the right to view whatever it was or see whatever it was, I heard a voice from the back seat and I firmly believe it was the President's, "My God, I am hit," and I turned around and he has got his hands up here like this. SPECTER. Indicating right hand up toward his neck? KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. In fact, both hands were up in that direction. COOPER. Which side of his neck? KELLERMAN. Beg pardon? COOPER. Which side of his neck? KELLERMAN. Both hands were up, sir; this one is like this here and here we are with the hands — SPECTER. Indicating the left hand is up above the head. KELLERMAN. In the collar section. SPECTER. As you are positioning yourself in the witness chair, your right hand is up with the finger at the ear level as if clutching from the right of the head; would that be an accurate description of the position you pictured there? KELLERMAN. Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman," — this is Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital immediately." Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill, who was riding on the left front bumper of our follow-up car, was on the back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into the back seat. SPECTER. Indicating on his left side. KELLERMAN. Right; just like I am here. SPECTER. You mean, correct, left side? KELLERMAN. Correct; yes, sir. Governor Connally by that time is lying flat backwards into her lap — Mrs. Connally — and she was lying flat over him. SPECTER. Who was lying flat over him? KELLERMAN. Mrs. Connally was lying flat over the Governor. SPECTER. You say that you turned to your right immediately after you heard a shot? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. SPECTER. What was the reason for your reacting to your right? KELLERMAN. That was the direction that I heard this noise, pop. SPECTER. Do you have a reaction as to the height from which the noise came? KELLERMAN. No; honestly, I do not. FORD. Was there any reaction that you noticed on the part of Greer when the noise was noticed by you? KELLERMAN. You are referring, Mr. Congressman, to the reaction to get this car out of there? FORD. Yes. KELLERMAN. Mr. Congressman, I have driven that car many times, and I never cease to be amazed even to this day with the weight of the automobile plus the power that is under the hood; we just literally jumped out of the God-damn road. FORD. As soon as this noise was heard, or as soon as you transmitted this message to Lawson? KELLERMAN. As soon as I transmitted to the driver first as I went to Lawson. I just leaned sideways to him and said, "Let's get out of here. We are hit." FORD. That comment was made to Greet; not to Lawson? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; that is right. FORD. And the subsequent message was to Lawson? KELLERMAN. Correct. That is right. SPECTER. With relationship to that first noise that you have described, when did you hear the voice? KELLERMAN. His voice? SPECTER. We will start with his voice. KELLERMAN. OK. From the noise of which I was in the process of turning to determine where it was or what it was, it carried on right then. Why I am so positive, gentlemen, that it was his voice — there is only one man in the back seat that was from Boston, and the accents carried very clearly. SPECTER. Well, had you become familiar with the President's voice prior to that day? KELLERMAN. Yes; very much so. SPECTER. And what was the basis for your becoming familiar with that voice prior to that day? KELLERMAN. I had been with him for 3 years. SPECTER. And had you talked with him on a very frequent basis during the course of that association? KELLERMAN. He was a very free man to talk to; yes. He knew most all the men, most everybody who worked in the White House as well as everywhere and he would call you. SPECTER. And from your experience would you say that you could recognize the voice? KELLERMAN. Very much, sir; I would. SPECTER. Now, I think you may have answered this, but I want to pinpoint just when you heard that statement which you have attributed to President Kennedy in relationship to the sound which you described as a firecracker. KELLERMAN. This noise which I attribute as a firecracker, when this occurred and I am in the process of determining where it comes because I am sure it came off my right rear somewhere; the voice broke in right then. SPECTER. At about the same time? KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir. That is right, SPECTER. Now, did President Kennedy say anything beside, "My God, I am hit." KELLERMAN. That is the last words he said, sir. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything at that specific time? KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, there was an awful lot of confusion in that back seat. She did a lot of talking which I can't recall all the phrases. SPECTER. Well, pinpoint — KELLERMAN. But after the flurry of shots, I recall her saying, "What are they doing to you?" Now again, of course, my comparison of the voice of her speech — certainly, I have heard it many times, and in the car there was conversation she was carrying on through shock, I am sure. SPECTER. Well, going back to the precise time that you heard the President say, "My God, I am hit," do you recollect whether she said anything at that time? KELLERMAN. No. SPECTER. Whether or not you can re-create whatshe said? KELLERMAN. Not that I can recall right then, sir. This statement, or whatever she said, happened after all the shooting was over. SPECTER. All right. Now, you have described hearing a noise which sounded like a firecracker and you have described turning to your right and described hearing the President's voice and, again, what was your next motion, if any, or movement, if any? KELLERMAN. After I was sure that his statement was right that he was hit, turned from the back I come right down — SPECTER. You just indicated that you had turned to the left. Had you turned to the left after hearing his voice? KELLERMAN. Yes; certainly. SPECTER. And what did you see? You have described what you saw in terms of position of his hands. KELLERMAN. That was it. SPECTER. What did you do next? KELLERMAN. That is when I completely turned to my right and grabbed for the mike in the same motion, sideways telling the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit." SPECTER. Will you give us the best estimate of the lapse of time from the instant you heard the sound which appeared to you to be a firecracker until you instructed Mr. Greer in the way you have described? KELLERMAN. Seconds. SPECTER. How many seconds? KELLERMAN. Three or four. SPECTER. Now, how long did it take you to relay the instructions which you have told us about to Special Agent Lawson; what your best estimate would be? KELLERMAN. Instant, in seconds again. Again it is three to five. SPECTER. Now, in your prior testimony you described a flurry of shells into the car. How many shots did you hear after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker? KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, these shells came in all together. SPECTER. Are you able to say how many you heard? KELLERMAN. I am going to say two, and it was like a double bang-bang, bang. SPECTER. You mean now two shots in addition to the first noise? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; yes, sir; at least SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the time, in seconds, from the first noise sounding like a firecracker until the second noise which you heard? KELLERMAN. This was instantaneous. SPECTER. No; let me repeat the question so I am sure you understand it. From the time you first heard the noise coming to your right rear, which you described as sounding like a firecracker, until you heard the fiurry of shots? KELLERMAN. This is about how long it took, sir. As I am viewing, trying to determine this noise, I turned to my right and I heard the voice and I came back and I verify it and speak to the driver, grab the mike, these shots come in. SPECTER. Well, you have described it as 3 to 4 seconds from the time — KELLERMAN. No more. SPECTER. From the time of the first noise — wait a minute — until you gave the instruction to Mr. Greer and then as you made the statement to Special Agent Lawson over the microphone that was an instantaneous time span as you have described it. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. SPECTER. How soon thereafter did the flurry of shots come? KELLERMAN. They came in, Mr. Specter, while I am delivering that radio message. SPECTER. To Mr. Lawson. All right. Was there any time span which you could discern between the first and second shots and what you have described as the flurry? KELLERMAN. I will estimate 5 seconds, if that. FORD. But this flurry took place while you were occupied with these other activities; is that correct? KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. FORD. You don't recall precisely a second shot and a third shot such as you did in the case of the first? KELLERMAN. Let me give you an illustration, sir, before I can give you an answer. You have heard the sound barrier, of a plane breaking the sound barrier, bang, bang? That is it. FORD. This is for the second and the third, or the flurry as you described it? KELLERMAN. That is right; that is right, sir. SPECTER. On your 5-second estimate, was that in reference, Mr. Kellerman, to the total time span from the first noise until the flurry ended? KELLERMAN. That is right; that is right. SPECTER. All right. Now, when the flurry occurred then, were you still facing forward talking into the microphone to Lawson? KELLERMAN. That is right. SPECTER. All right. Then precisely what was your next movement after completing the delivery of that message to Lawson? KELLERMAN. When I completed the delivery of those instructions to Lawson, I just hung up the receiver and looked back. SPECTER. To your right this time — to your left; pardon me. KELLERMAN. To my left; that is right. This is when I first viewed Mr. Hill, who was on the hack of the — SPECTER. Precisely where was he in that instant? KELLERMAN. Lying right across the trunk of the car with Mrs. Kennedy on the left rear, Mr. Hill's head was right up in back of her. SPECTER. When you describe the left rear you mean as the car was facing? KELLERMAN. As the car is traveling, sir; yes, sir. He was lying across the trunk of this car, feet on this side. SPECTER. Was he flat across the trunk of the car? KELLERMAN. Flat; that is right. SPECTER. What was the position of Mrs. Kennedy's body at that time? KELLERMAN. She was sitting up in the corner of this back seat, like this. SPECTER. So that she was on the buttocks area of her body at that time? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. SPECTER. And what movement, if any, did you observe Mrs. Kennedy make at that time? KELLERMAN. I never did see Mrs. Kennedy leave that back seat, sir. SPECTER. When you say the back seat, are you referring, KELLERMAN. The seat she was sitting on. SPECTER. Are you referring to the seat itself of the automobile? KELLERMAN. Right. SPECTER. Where did you look next; what did you observe following that? KELLERMAN. Then I observed how the President was lying, which was he was — flat in the seat in this direction. SPECTER. On his left-hand side? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Governor Connally was lying straight on his back with Mrs. Connally over him about halfway. SPECTER. Did Governor Connally say anything up to this point? KELLERMAN. No. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Connally say anything up to that point? KELLERMAN. No. SPECTER. When was it that Mrs. Kennedy made the statement which you have described, "My God, what are they doing?" KELLERMAN. This occurred after the flurry of shots. SPECTER. At that time you looked back and saw Special Agent Hill across the trunk of the car, had your automobile accelerated by that time? KELLERMAN. Tremendously so; yes. SPECTER. Now, to the best of your ability to recollect, exactly when did your automobile first accelerate? KELLERMAN. Our car accelerated immediately on the time — at the time — this flurry of shots came into it. SPECTER. Would you say the acceleration — KELLERMAN. Between the second and third shot. COOPER Might I ask a question there? SPECTER. Yes. COOPER. A few minutes ago you said in response to a question that when you spoke to the driver the car leaped forward from an acceleration immediately. Did that acceleration occur before the second shot was fired? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Just about the time that it came in. COOPER. About the time it came in? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. COOPER. Not before? KELLERMAN. No. COOPER. One other question: You said the flurry of shots came in the car. You were leaning forward talking to the driver after the first shot. What made you aware of a flurry of shots? KELLERMAN. Senator, between all the matter that was — between all the matter that was blown off from an injured person, this stuff all came over. COOPER. What was that? KELLERMAN. Body matter; flesh. COOPER. When you were speaking of a flurry of shots, was there a longer interval between the first shot and the second shot as compared to the interval between the second shot and the third shot? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. SPECTER. When did you first notice the substance which you have described as body matter? KELLERMAN. When I got to the hospital, sir, it was all over my coat. SPECTER. Did you notice it flying past you at any time prior to your arrival at the hospital? KELLERMAN. Yes; I know there was something in the air. SPECTER. When, in relation to the shots, Mr. Kellerman, did you notice the substance in the air? KELLERMAN. Fine. When I have given the orders to Mr. Lawson, this is when it all came between the driver and myself. SPECTER. Can you describe what it was in a little more detail as it appeared to you at that time? KELLERMAN. This is a rather poor comparison, but let's say you take a little handful of matter — I am going to use sawdust for want of a better item — and just throw it. SPECTER. Can you describe the sound of the flurry of shots by way of distinction with the way you have described the sound of the first shot? KELLERMAN. Well, having heard all types of guns fired, most of them, rather, if I recall correctly these were two sharp reports, sir. Again, I am going to refer to it as like a plane going through a sound barrier; bang, bang. SPECTER. Now, you are referring to the flurry? KELLERMAN. That is right. SPECTER. Did it sound differently from the first noise you have described as being a firecracker? KELLERMAN. Yes; definitely; very much so. FORD. Was there any other noise going on at the time of the second and third shots different from the noise of the crowd or otherwise at the time of the first shot? KELLERMAN. We had no crowd, sir. There was nothing there. FORD. So the external noise was identical as far as the — KELLERMAN. Very much. FORD. First or second or the third shot? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. We are in an open-field area, so to speak, and everything was just clear. FORD. So there was no other sound that would have disturbed your hearing capability from the first through the third shot? KELLERMAN. That is right; no other shot. FORD. Your only problem would be your personal activity after the first shot. KELLERMAN. Correct. FORD. Your activity of speaking to Greer and talking to Lawson? KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir; yes, sir. FORD. Was there any crowd reaction? KELLERMAN. There was no crowd. FORD. There were a few stragglers? KELLERMAN. A handful, and I didn't view any reaction, sir. FORD. All right. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, you said earlier that there were at least two additional shots. Is there any area in your mind or possibility, as you recollect that situation, that there could have been more than two shots, or are you able to say with any certainty? KELLERMAN. I am going to say that I have, from the firecracker report and the two other shots that I know, those were three shots. But, Mr. Specter, if President Kennedy had from all reports four wounds, Governor Connally three, there have got to be more than three shots, gentlemen. COOPER. What is that answer? What did he say? SPECTER. Will you repeat that, Mr. Kellerman? KELLERMAN. President Kennedy had four wounds, two in the head and shoulder and the neck. Governor Connally, from our reports, had three. There have got to be more than three shots. FORD. Is that why you have described KELLERMAN. The flurry. FORD. The noise as a flurry? KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. SPECTER. Excuse me, do you have any independent recollection, Mr. Kellerman, of the number of shots, aside from the inference that you make as to how many points of wounds there were? KELLERMAN. Could you rephrase that, please? SPECTER. Yes. You have drawn a conclusion, in effect, by saying that there were four wounds for the President and three wounds for the Governor; and from that, you say there must have been more than three shots in your opinion or your view. But my question is: Do you have any current recollection of having heard more than three shots? KELLERMAN. No. I don't. I will have to say "No." COOPER. Has that been your recollection from the very time of the shooting? KELLERMAN. No, sir; it has been my opinion. COOPER. Not your opinion, but from the time of the shooting you think then that you heard only three shots, or did you? KELLERMAN. Yes. COOPER. Or did you ever think that you heard more than three? KELLERMAN. No, sir; I can't say that, sir. SPECTER. Now, you referred to four wounds, Mr. Kellerman, realizing, of course, your characterization is only lay opinion. KELLERMAN. Very true. SPECTER. Would you tell us which wounds you made reference to by that statement, please? KELLERMAN. All right. Can I keep the train going from the time we got to the hospital? SPECTER. Yes, sir; do it in your own way just as you please. KELLERMAN. Fine. As we arrived at the hospital I immediately got out of the car. Our follow-up car is in back of us, as you will recall. I yelled to the agents, "Get in" — "Go get us two stretcher on wheels." In the meantime in a matter of seconds — I don't know how they got out so fast — I turned right around to the back door and opened it. By this time Mrs. Connally had raised up, and the Governor is lying in her lap, face up. His eyes are open and he is looking at me, and I am fairly sure he is alive. By this time I noticed the two stretchers coming out of the emergency room, and I said to the Governor, I said, "Governor, don't worry; everything is going to be all right." And he nodded his head, which I was fairly convinced that that man was alive. By this time the stretcher is there. I get inside on one side of him, and Special Agent Hill on the other. Somebody is holding his feet, and we remove the Governor and put him on the stretcher and they take him in. We then get in and help Mrs. Connally out. Our next move is to get Mrs. Kennedy off from the seat, which was a little difficult, but she was removed. Then Mr. Hill removed his coat and laid it over the President's face and shoulder. He and I among two other people — I don't know — we lifted up the President and put him on a stretcher and followed him right into the emergency room. Gentlemen, this emergency room is a, it looks like a, checkerboard; it has a walkway down the center and a crossway and there are rooms on each side. President Kennedy was put into the one on the right, Governor Connally across on the left. And as we pushed the wheelchair in — we pushed the stretcher inside, the medical people just seemed to form right in, right there, and I walked around him and I wanted to look at this man's face, they had him face up. COOPER. The President? KELLERMAN. The President; I am sorry. I did not see any wounds in that man's face. SPECTER. Indicating with your hand at that moment the front part of his face? KELLERMAN. Right, sir. SPECTER. May I interrupt you just to ask whether you had any view — KELLERMAN. Surely. SPECTER. Of the rear part of his head? KELLERMAN. I did not, sir. SPECTER. What was the rearmost or uppermost portion of President Kennedy's head which you could observe at that time? KELLERMAN. It was the hairline to the ear, sir. SPECTER. Proceed. KELLERMAN. Having all the medical people in there, my business is left in their hands. So I left. Mrs. Kennedy, incidentally, was still in there. SPECTER. In where, sir? KELLERMAN. In the emergency room with him. Which after a few minutes they convinced her to leave, and she sat outside the room while they were working over the President. I walked into this center area of this emergency room — and I am looking for a telephone — which there is a little doctor's office and I walked inside, and I am alone at that time, except one medic who was in there. There are two phones and I said, "Can I use either one of these phones to get outside?" and he said, "Yes; just pick one up." By this time Mr. Lawson enters and also Mr, Hill. I asked Mr. Lawson for the telephone number of the Dallas White House switchboard. He immediately has it and I said to Mr. Hill, "Will you dial it, please?" By that time a rnedic comes into the room from President Kennedy's section and he asks if anybody knows the blood type of the President — President Kennedy. We all carry it. I produce mine, and that is what I believe they used; I am not sure. By this time the connection is made with the White House operator in Dallas, and I took the phone, identified myself, and I said, "Give me Washington. Please don't pull this line; let's leave it open." I got the Washington operator and I said, identified myself, and I said, "Give me Mr. Behn." Mr. Behn was in the office at the time, and I said — his name is Gerald Behn — and I said, "Gerry, we have had an incident here in Dallas. The President, the Governor have been shot. We are in the emergency room of the Parkland Memorial Hospital." I said, "Mark down the time." Of course, since that time until now we have disagreed on about 3 minutes. I said it is 12:38, which would be 1:38 Dallas time. I am sorry — Washington time. SPECTER. Was that at the time you were talking to Mr. Behn? KELLERMAN. To Mr. Behn; yes, sir. SPECTER. And your version is that it is 12:38 Dallas time? KELLERMAN. 12:38. He said it was 12:41; he told me the next day. SPECTER. May I interrupt you there for you to tell us how long after you arrived at the hospital did you make that telephone call to Mr. Behn, to the best of your recollection? KELLERMAN. Three to five minutes. SPECTER. All right. The topic we are on now, Mr. Kellerman, is your own way of relating the description of the wounds, starting with four wounds on President Kennedy. KELLERMAN. Right; OK. SPECTER. Proceed, then. KELLERMAN. I can eclipse an awful lot here and get into the morgue here in Bethesda, because that is where I looked him over. SPECTER. I will come back and pick up some of the other detail. KELLERMAN. Fine. SPECTER. But for the sequence at the moment, as it relates to your conclusions on the shots which you have already testified about— KELLERMAN. OK. SPECTER. I would like to develop your understanding and your observations of the four wounds on President Kennedy. KELLERMAN. OK. This all transpired in the morgue of the Naval Hospital in Bethesda, sir. He had a large wound this size. SPECTER. Indicating a circle with your finger of the diameter of 5 inches; would that be approximately correct? KELLERMAN. Yes, circular; yes, on this part of the head. SPECTER. Indicating the rear portion of the head. KELLERMAN. Yes. SPECTER. More to the right side of the head? KELLERMAN. Right. This was removed. SPECTER. When you say, "This was removed," what do you mean by this? KELLERMAN. The skull part was removed. SPECTER. All right. FORD. Above the ear and back? KELLERMAN. To the left of the ear, sir, and a little high; yes. About right in here. SPECTER. When you say "removed," by that do you mean that it was absent when you saw him, or taken off by the doctor? KELLERMAN. It was absent when I saw him. SPECTER. Fine. Proceed. KELLERMAN. Entry into this man's head was right below that wound, right here. SPECTER. Indicating the bottom of the hairline immediately to the right of the ear about the lower third of the ear? KELLERMAN. Right. But it was in the hairline, sir. SPECTER. In his hairline? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Near the end of his hairline? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. SPECTER. What was the size of that aperture? KELLERMAN. The little finger. SPECTER. Indicating the diameter of the little finger. KELLERMAN. Right SPECTER. Now, what was the position of that opening with respect to the portion of the skull which you have described as being removed or absent? KELLERMAN. Well, I am going to have to describe it similar to this. Let's say part of your skull is removed here; this is below. SPECTER. You have described a distance of approximately an inch and a half, 2 inches, below. KELLERMAN. That is correct; about that, sir. SPECTER. All right. What other wounds, if any, did you notice on the President? KELLERMAN. The other wound that I noticed was on his shoulder. SPECTER. Which shoulder. KELLERMAN. Right shoulder. SPECTER. And was it — what was its general position with respect to the breadth of the back? KELLERMAN. Right straight. SPECTER. No. Upper shoulder, lower shoulder; how far below the lower neckline would you say? KELLERMAN. The upper neckline, sir, in that large muscle between the shoulder and the neck, just below it. SPECTER. What was the size of that opening? KELLERMAN. Again about the size of a little finger. SPECTER. Now, have you described three wounds which you have observed? KELLERMAN. That is three. The fourth one I will have to collaborate with — the medical people in Dallas said that he had entry in the throat or an exit. SPECTER. Now, you are indicating a part on the throat right underneath your tie as you sit there, the knot of your tie. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Who told you that? KELLERMAN. This comes from a report from Dr. Kemp Clark. SPECTER. Did you talk to Dr. Clark personally? KELLERMAN. I did not. This is a written report. SPECTER. This is a written report which you have read? KELLERMAN. Yes; that is right. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge of that wound on the front side aside from the written report of Dr. Kemp Clark? KELLERMAN. Except that in the morgue it was very visible that they had incisioned him here to insert the tracheotomy that they performed on him. SPECTER. So with the operative procedures to perform a tracheotomy, was there anything, in your view, left of the original entry? KELLERMAN. No. SPECTER. Entry or exit that you have described. KELLERMAN. No, SPECTER. All you could see at that point was the operative procedure, the cutting of the surgeon's blade in Dallas? KELLERMAN. That is right. COOPER. You are saying this, then, that you did not see, yourself, at any time the mark of any wound in his neck front? KELLERMAN. When we took him into the hospital in Dallas; that is right COOPER. What? KELLERMAN. That is right; when we took him in the hospital in Dallas, I did not. COOPER. Did you ever see it? KELLERMAN. Only after he was opened up in the morgue: yes, sir. COOPER. You saw some indication or some mark of a wound in the front of his neck? KELLERMAN. Senator, from the report of the doctor who worked on him in Dallas, that he enlarged the incision here in his throat to perform that tracheotomy, and I believe in his own statement that that wound was there prior to this incision. COOPER. I know, but I am asking KELLERMAN. I didn't see it, sir. COOPER. What you saw yourself? KELLERMAN. No; I didn't. FORD. Was that because Hill had thrown his coat over the President, or just didn't see the skin or the body at the time? KELLERMAN. No, sir. When I — that coat was thrown over, sir, to eliminate any gruesome pictures. FORD. How far over that body? Did it go over the head only or down the chest? KELLERMAN. No; the whole coat went all the way down to the waistline, sir. SPECTER. You saw the President's face, though, at a later time as you have described? KELLERMAN. Yes, thank you. This I had lost track of, to help you out, Mr. Congressman. While he lay on the stretcher in that emergency room his collar and everything is up and I saw nothing in his face to indicate an injury, whether the shot had come through or not. He was clear. FORD. But while he was on the stretcher in the emergency room you saw his face? KELLERMAN. That is right. FORD. But he had his tie and his collar still? KELLERMAN. Still on. FORD. Still on? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. FORD. You never saw his neck? KELLERMAN. No, sir. FORD. At that time? KELLERMAN. At that time, I did not observe him. FORD. The only time you saw him was later at the morgue? KELLERMAN. Very much, sir. SPECTER. Did you observe any blood on the portion of his body in the neck area or anyplace in the front of his body? KELLERMAN. I don't recall any. SPECTER. Did you observe any hole in the clothing of the President on the front part, in the shirt or tie area? KELLERMAN. No, sir. SPECTER. From your observation of the wound which you observed in the morgue which you have described as a tracheotomy, would that have been above or below the shirtline when the President was clothed? KELLERMAN. It would have been below the shirtline, sir. SPECTER. Now, have you described all of the wounds of the President to which you have referred? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Will you describe the three wounds which I believe you said Governor Connally sustained? KELLERMAN. I am going to refer to the medical report on Governor Connally, wherein they said one wound was in his right back — SPECTER. Indicating the upper shoulder area? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. One went through his wrist. SPECTER. Indicating the right wrist. KELLERMAN. I am using the numbers. and he was — a missile went into his thigh somewhere. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Governor Connally's wounds aside from what you read in the medical report? KELLERMAN. No; not personally. SPECTER. Do you have any independent knowledge of which wrist and which thigh, aside from what you read in the medical reports themselves? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; I do, I talked to the Governor several times later, and it is the right wrist, sir. SPECTER. It is the right wrist? KELLERMAN. Yea, sir. SPECTER. And which thigh? KELLERMAN. It would be the left one. FORD. Is this a good point for a recess? SPECTER. This is fine. FORD. We will take a 5-minute break. (Short recess.) FORD. The Commission will resume, and will you proceed, Mr. Specter, please? SPECTER. Yes sir. One of your last answers was that the position of the wounds on Governor Connally was ascertained from a conversation between you and Governor Connally, as well as from the medical reports themselves. Is that correct? KELLERMAN. No; it is really not. SPECTER. Then tell us what your basis is for your testimony on Governor Connally's wounds. KELLERMAN. I have never conversed with the Governor as to his other wounds outside of his wrist. Your medical report on Governor Connally which indicate the shoulder wound, wrist, and in the thigh. SPECTER. When did you have occasion to talk to him about his wrist wound? KELLERMAN. Over the holidays in Texas, sir. SPECTER. The Christmas holidays? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Have you now told us everything you know, either from conversations or reports, about the wounds of Governor Connally? KELLERMAN. That is right; yes, sir. SPECTER. All right. Were you able to observe at the time of the shooting and immediately thereafter, as Governor Connally went into the hospital, any of his specific wounds? KELLERMAN. Only of that I am presuming now of the hand because, when he was lying, he had it across his stomach here, and it was rather bloody. SPECTER. And was it the hand that was bloody, the stomach, or both? KELLERMAN. I would say so right now; yes. SPECTER. Which? KELLERMAN. The hand. SPECTER. Was the stomach bloody at all? KELLERMAN. Not that I remember. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Mr. Kellerman, on the total number of wounds in relationship to your view that there were more than three shots? KELLERMAN. Well, let's consider the vehicle. SPECTER. Fine. What about the vehicle would you consider relevant in this regard? KELLERMAN. The windshield itself, which I observed a day or two after the funeral here, had been hit by a piece of this missile or missiles, whatever it is, shell. SPECTER. While you are referring to the windshield, permit me to hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 349 and ask if you can tell us what that photograph depicts? KELLERMAN. This photograph is the windshield of the Presidential special automobile that we used in Dallas on November 22. And it depicts a hit by some instrument on the metal railing that covers the windshield. SPECTER. In what position is the hit on that metal railing? KELLERMAN. Directly to the right of the mirror. SPECTER. Is that on the top of the windshield? KELLERMAN. That is on the top of the windshield. I am sorry; this is not the windshield itself; this is the top of the vehicle. This is the framework. SPECTER. Would you draw a red arrow with the pen that you have to the mark which you have just described? (Mr. Kellerman marked the photograph.) SPECTER. Now, when did you first observe that indentation? KELLERMAN. This was observed a day or two after the funeral, which funeral was the 25th of November; this would be upward of the 25th. SPECTER. Where was the automobile at the time you observed that indentation? KELLERMAN. At the White House garage, sir. SPECTER. Was the windshield in the automobile at that time? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it was in the automobile. SPECTER. Did you observe or notice that indentation in the windshield when you were in Dallas after the shooting occurred? KELLERMAN. No, sir. SPECTER. Did you observe or notice that indentation before the shooting occurred? KELLERMAN. No, sir. SPECTER. Are you able to state positively whether or not that indentation was present before the shooting? KELLERMAN. No, sir. SPECTER. So that you observed it on the first occasion when you saw the car in the White House garage on or about November 27; is that correct? KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir. SPECTER. The indentation could conceivably have been present before the shooting? KELLERMAN. It could have; yes. SPECTER. But you didn't observe it before the shooting? KELLERMAN. I did not. SPECTER. And did you not observe it in Dallas after the shooting? KELLERMAN. That is right; I did not SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the windshield area after the assassination in Dallas? KELLERMAN. No, sir. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the windshield at any time after the assassination until you saw the car in the garage on or about November 27? KELLERMAN. No, sir; I have not. SPECTER. Would you describe for the record where that indentation occurs or is placed? KELLERMAN. This indentation is placed on the metal-bar framework which is across the top of the windshield. The indentation is directly to the right of the mirror holder. SPECTER. Is that on the inside or the outside of the car? KELLERMAN. This is on the inside of the car. FORD. What prompted you to make that investigation on or about November 27? KELLERMAN. First, Mr. Congressman, I wanted to look this car over for — let me go back a little bit. When this car was checked over that night for its return to Washington, I was informed the following day of the pieces of these missiles that were found in the front seat. and I believe aside from the skull, that was in the rear seat, I couldn't conceive even from elevation how this shot hit President Kennedy like it did. I wanted to view this vehicle, whether this was a slant blow off the car, whether it hit the car first and then hit him, or what other marks are on this vehicle, and that is what prompted me to go around and check it over myself. FORD. Had anybody told you of this indentation prior to your own personal investigation? KELLERMAN. Not of the windshield; no, sir. FORD. You were the first one to find this indentation? KELLERMAN. I believe I am the first one who noticed this thing up on the bar. FORD. That is what I meant. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. FORD. You are the first one to notice this particular indentation? KELLERMAN. Yes; I believe I am, sir. FORD. All right. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to examine the windshield or the framework closely before the assassination, either in Dallas or in Washington? KELLERMAN. No; I honestly didn't. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, I move for the admission to evidence of Exhibit No. 349. FORD. It will be so admitted. (The document referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 349 for identification, was received in evidence.) SPECTER. Now I hand to Mr. Kellerman, through the chairman, Commission Exhibit No. 350, and ask you to describe what this picture represents? KELLERMAN. This picture represents the windshield of the President's special automobile as we are looking into it. This is an outside photo. My reason for this is that on inspection there is a — the windshield has been struck by an instrument and it has been cracked. This crack is opposite the mirror-facing the driver would be toward the driver, to the right of the mirror, and- SPECTER. The photograph, Exhibit 350, is from the outside of the car front looking toward the car; correct? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. SPECTER. What mark, if any, appears in the photograph on the windshield itself? KELLERMAN. There is the cracked windshield located to the right of the mirror as you look into the automobile. SPECTER. That would be on the driver's side, as you previously stated? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; on the driver's side of the vehicle. SPECTER. Now, is this picture an accurate representation of the appearance of the windshield at some time when you observed the windshield? KELLERMAN. This windshield I observed on this same day. SPECTER. On or about November 27, 1963? KELLERMAN. That is correct. SPECTER. Does that picture accurately represent what the windshield looked like on that day when you observed it? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it is. SPECTER. Did you observe any crack in the windshield as the President's automobile was being driven from the point of assassination to the hospital? KELLERMAN. I did not. SPECTER. Did you observe it at any time prior to the time you saw the automobile in the White House garage on or before November 27? KELLERMAN. I did not, sir. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the windshield after the time of the shooting up until the time you saw it in the White House garage? KELLERMAN. No, sir. SPECTER. Now, at the time of your examination of the windshield in the White House garage, did you feel the windshield? KELLERMAN. On the day that I visited the White House garage and checked this car over for my own personal reasons, and this windshield crack was pointed out to me, I did. SPECTER. When you say it was pointed out to you, by whom? KELLERMAN. There were other people in the garage, like Mr. Kinney, I believe was there at the time, Special Agent Henry Rybka was the other person. SPECTER. Was it sufficiently prominent without having to have it pointed out specially? KELLERMAN. Oh, yes; very much. And I felt this windshield both inwardly and outwardly to determine first if there was something that was struck from the back of us or — and I was satisfied that it was. SPECTER. When you say struck from in back of you, do you mean on the inside or outside of the windshield? KELLERMAN. Inside, sir. SPECTER. Inside of the car? KELLERMAN. Right. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to feel the outside of the windshield? KELLERMAN. I did on that day; yes, sir. SPECTER. What did you feel, if anything? KELLERMAN. Not a thing; it was real smooth. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to feel the inside of the windshield? KELLERMAN. I did. SPECTER. How did that feel to you? KELLERMAN. My comparison was that the broken glass, broken windshield, there was enough little roughness in there from the cracks and split that I was positive, or it was my belief, that whatever hit it came into the inside of the car. SPECTER. I move for the admission into evidence of Exhibit No. 350. FORD. It will be so admitted. (The document referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 350 for identification, was received in evidence.) SPECTER. I now call the attention of the Commission to Exhibit No. 351, which is the windshield itself which, as the Commission may observe, is present in the hearing room. Now, with reference to Exhibit No. 351, which is a marking placed over a glass object, Mr. Kellerman, can you describe for the Commission what that is? KELLERMAN. Yes; this windshield, which has since been removed from the vehicle, at the time I first viewed it, this area marked in here was all that was cracked. These are later splints. SPECTER. Before you proceed, Mr. Kellerman, do you have knowledge as to the general removal procedure during which this windshield was taken from the President's car? KELLERMAN. I believe I do not. However, I believe Mr. Greer would be able to identify it better than I, on the removal side. SPECTER. Would you describe the condition of the windshield in its present state as we are viewing it here this morning? KELLERMAN. The windshield this morning has — has been hit by some object with sufficient force — SPECTER. Perhaps we ought to start with the point of impact, Mr. Kellerman. First, are you able to positively identify this as the windshield from the President's automobile? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; I would say it was, sir. SPECTER. Is this the same windshield as depicted in Exhibits 349 and 350? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. SPECTER. All right. Now, starting with the principal point of impact, where does that exist on this windshield? KELLERMAN. The principal point of impact is located to the left of the mirror, to the right above the driver's head, and to the right of his, I am going to say, view line. SPECTER. As we view the windshield at this time, state whether or not there are spidering lines which have emanated from that point which you have described as the principal point of impact? KELLERMAN. The spidering lines which extend in three different directions — you are speaking of the large ones or the others? SPECTER. Well, I want to put on this record all of the spidering lines which exist here. KELLERMAN. OK; the spidering lines which are in this encircled area reflect, in my opinion, that when the instrument hit this glass it shattered in half a dozen different ways. SPECTER. Well now, with respect to the cracks themselves, is there a crack which goes in a generally upwardly direction slanting off in the general direction of the driver? KELLERMAN. In the center of this, the impact of the center of this scratch, one goes directly to the top of the windshield. SPECTER. On that line itself, is there a further splintering off of that line at another point? KELLERMAN. It then continues on a small leg, a straight leg, about 3 inches from the original direction. SPECTER. And is there a change of direction at that point, or a bifurcation, dividing it into two parts? KELLERMAN. No. SPECTER. Well, you have described in a generally upwardly direction of about 3 inches? KELLERMAN. Yes. SPECTER. And is there not a crack which then extends all the way to the top of the windshield moving, in the direction of the left side of the windshield from the driver facing it? KELLERMAN. That is right. There is a complete crack from this so-called cutoff to the top right of the windshield right above the view line of the driver. SPECTER. Taking that from a compass reading, would that be in a generally northeasterly direction? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; northeasterly. SPECTER. All right. From a point 3 inches from the center crack, which we described as the principal point of impact, then, does there form a point of crack in a V-direction with the line you have already described? KELLERMAN. Yes; there does. There is a small splint, about 2 inches, that heads directly north off from this splinter that goes in a northeasterly direction. SPECTER. All right. Now. moving in a clockwise direction. KELLERMAN. In a clockwise direction. SPECTER. What crack do you observe, if any? KELLERMAN. I next observe on the eastward side of this center crack a splint of about 3 inches long, which then makes a sharp veer to the south-east to the bottom of the windshield. SPECTER. Now, moving further in a clockwise direction, what crack do you next observe emanating from the central point of impact? KELLERMAN. The next crack from the central point of impact extends down about 3 inches, to the southeast, and then veers to a sharp southeast to the bottom of the windshield. SPECTER. Now, moving further in a clockwise direction. KELLERMAN. From this point — SPECTER. Let's continue to move from the central point of impact to finish up what divergent cracks there are from the central point of impact. Is there one other? KELLERMAN. There is one other point left. This is completely in a westerly direction about 3 inches from the center of impact, which then veers to the northwest to the top of the windshield. SPECTER. Are there other cracks in the windshield? KELLERMAN. There is one other splint, which is from the southeasterly leg. SPECTER. That would be southwesterly leg. KELLERMAN. Southwesterly leg — I am sorry — that drops to within an inch of the bottom of the windshield, whereby another splint travels in a northwesterly direction to about halfway of the windshield. SPECTER. Now, have you described all of the visible cracks in the windshield? KELLERMAN. That has completed it, sir. SPECTER. As you have viewed this windshield, have you looked at it from the outside looking in or the inside looking out? KELLERMAN. I have been looking from the outside looking in. SPECTER. Where you would have been if you had been, say, on the front hood of the car when the windshield was in place on the automobile? KELLERMAN. I would have been — pardon? SPECTER. On the hood of the car? KELLERMAN. On the hood of the car this would have been facing me as it is sitting here today. SPECTER. Have there been any measures taken to protect the outer edges of this windshield in its position here in the hearing room? KELLERMAN. Yes. A form of protective tape has been placed around the entire windshield to protect it, to keep it intact. SPECTER. Are there any differences in the cracks on the windshield today as it sits in our hearing room from its condition when you observed it on or about November 27, 1963? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. From the point of impact the four cracks that looked in the four directions were the only ones on this windshield. SPECTER. Is there any marking in color or otherwise on that piece of the windshield? KELLERMAN. There has been a yellow crayon marking the circumference of these four cracks, apparently before the windshield was removed from the automobile. SPECTER. Is that yellow or red? KELLERMAN. It is red. SPECTER. Were the cracks present within the circumference of that marking present at the time you observed the windshield on or about November 27? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Were any of the other marks present when you observed the windshield on or about November 27? KELLERMAN. No, sir. SPECTER. Would you at this time feel the outside of the windshield and describe what, if anything, you feel at the point of impact? KELLERMAN. The outside markings from the point of impact, the extended lines — SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman. I would like for you at this time to actually touch the outside and tell me, first of all, if it is the same or if it differs in any way from the sense of feel which you noted when you touched it on or about November 27? KELLERMAN. As I touch the outside on the impact, it would be the same as I noticed on the 27th of November. SPECTER. What do you notice, if anything? KELLERMAN. It is a smooth surface without any — SPECTER. Without any — finish your answer. KELLERMAN. On the inside. SPECTER. No; before. It is a smooth surface without any what? KELLERMAN. Without any crack lines. SPECTER. On the outside? KELLERMAN. That can be felt SPECTER. On the outside? KELLERMAN. That is right; on the outside of the windshield. SPECTER. Feel the inside and tell us, first of all, whether it is the same or different from the way you touched it on November 27? KELLERMAN. On November 27, when I felt the inside of this impact area, I was convinced that I could — that I felt an opening in one of these lines, which was indicative to me that the blow was struck from the inside of the car on this windshield. SPECTER. Does it feel the same to you today as it did on or about November 27? KELLERMAN. As a matter of fact, it feels rather smooth today. SPECTER. It feels somewhat differently today than it felt before? KELLERMAN. Yes; it does. FORD. Could we ask when the red circle was placed on the windshield, if you know? KELLERMAN. I do not know. SPECTER. With respect to the shattering which existed on or about November 27, which is within the red circle, could that condition have existed on November 22 after the assassination? KELLERMAN. Absolutely not. I don't think so. SPECTER. What is the reason for your expressing your thought that it could not have existed? KELLERMAN. This automobile is never out of sight of any agent, or even a police officer, before it is used — used or afterward. Let me clarify that. The agent that accompanied these cars to Dallas was with the vehicles from the time they left Washington aboard this plane. One of his many duties outside of keeping it, having this car run perfectly, is that all the equipment is in perfect condition. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, what you are saying, then, is there had been no crack in the windshield prior to the time of the shooting? KELLERMAN. That is correct. SPECTER. My next question is: Did you observe any crack in the windshield after the shooting on November 27? KELLERMAN. No. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to look for or examine for any crack in the windshield after the shooting? KELLERMAN. I had no occasion whatsoever. SPECTER. If the crack in the windshield had been as prominent as it was on or about November 27, 1963, would you have observed it after the shooting on November 22? KELLERMAN. No, sir; I don't think I would have. COOPER. Is it correct then to say that you didn't find any occasion to examine the windshield after you heard the shots? KELLERMAN. That is right, I did not have the opportunity. SPECTER. And after the President was removed from the automobile, did you ever go back and examine the car, including the windshield? KELLERMAN. Not in Dallas; no, sir. SPECTER. To be absolutely certain our record is straight on this point, when you observed this windshield on or about November 27, 1963, was the windshield in or out of the car? KELLERMAN. It was in the car. This was the same day they were going to remove it. SPECTER. Did they remove it later that day, to your knowledge? KELLERMAN. Yes; they did, and the mechanics were there. SPECTER. Were you there at the time this was removed? KELLERMAN. No, sir. SPECTER. But the mechanics had arrived preparatory to removing it? KELLERMAN. That is right. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, we intended to describe the windshield in detail prior to your mentioning it, but to go back to your train of thought, you had brought up the windshield in response to my question about whether you had told us everything that you had in mind when you expressed the view that there were more than three shots. Now, remaining on the subject of the windshield, what fact about the windshield was important in your mind when you expressed the view that there must have been more than three shots? KELLERMAN. I may be a little — I am not ahead of myself in your investigation of this case, but I think with the evidence that you all have on the numbers, on the pieces of evidence that were found in the car, plus the fact that you have a missile that was received from Dallas, from one of the stretchers, plus the fact of the missile that, to my knowledge, hasn't been removed from Governor Connally — it may have, I don't know — count up to more than three to me, gentlemen. SPECTER. All right; fine. But focusing just a moment on the windshield in and of itself, is there any physical factor or characteristic of the windshield other than those already described for the record which has any bearing on your conclusion about the number of shots? KELLERMAN. No; it does not. SPECTER. Now, moving on to the other pieces of evidence which you have just described, you referred to pieces of evidence in the car. What did you mean when you made that reference, sir? KELLERMAN. I have — I was told, although this is a hearsay thing SPECTER. For these purposes, please tell us whatever you are referring to, whatever its source, hearsay or not. KELLERMAN. Okay; fine. That when they examined that vehicle that night, when it was brought back to Washington, D.C., two pieces of a bullet or bullets were found on the passenger side on the floor of the front seat. SPECTER. Did you observe those? KELLERMAN. No, sir. SPECTER. Who told you that, or what report? KELLERMAN. Mr. Boring — Floyd Boring. SPECTER. Who is Mr. Boring? KELLERMAN. He is also an assistant special agent in charge. SPECTER. Is he currently with the Secret Service? KELLERMAN. He is currently with the Secret Service at the White House; yes. SPECTER. Were those two pieces of bullet described with more particularity than you have mentioned? KELLERMAN. No; they were not. SPECTER. Were they described as fragments of bullets as distinguished from whole bullets? KELLERMAN. Right, sir. SPECTER. But do you have any information as to the size of the fragments? KELLERMAN. No; I do not, SPECTER. Are there any other pieces of evidence in the car that you were referring to there? KELLERMAN. The only other piece of evidence in the car was President Kennedy's skull. SPECTER. All right. Do you know what was done with those fragments that Mr. Boring told you about? KELLERMAN. No; I don't. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not those were turned over to the FBI? KELLERMAN. I would say they were probably turned over to the FBI; yes, sir. SPECTER. And why would you say they probably were? KELLERMAN. Because they were assigned to going over the car. SPECTER. Was it their procedure to turn over whatever they found to the FBI? KELLERMAN. Oh, yes. SPECTER. Now, is there anything special in the nature of the skull which you just mentioned which would have any bearing on the number of shots fired in this assassination? KELLERMAN. No, but it would be one shell, one shot. SPECTER. That would be your conclusion? KELLERMAN. That would be my conclusion. SPECTER. That it would take one shot to have separated that portion of skull? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. SPECTER. You mentioned a missile found on a stretcher in Dallas. Will you elaborate on what you were referring to there? KELLERMAN. This was given, I believe, in your statements there, to a Special Agent Johnson. I haven't seen this missile. SPECTER. Are you referring there to the missile which was found on the stretcher and to the sequence of events from which it was traced back to one of the two victims of this shooting? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Do you have any more knowledge about that other than that which you have already mentioned? KELLERMAN. No; I do not. SPECTER. You mentioned a missile which was not removed from Governor Connally. Specifically, what did you refer to there? KELLERMAN. There was in the early — this was on the day in Parkland Memorial Hospital, and this information comes from Dr. George Burkley, the President's physician, when, I believe, I asked him the condition of Governor Connally, and have they removed the bullet from him. SPECTER. What did Dr. Burkley say? KELLERMAN. Dr. Burkley said that to his knowledge he still has the bullet in him. SPECTER. And at what time on November 22 was that? KELLERMAN. This was after we got into the hospital after the shooting, sir, between then and 2 o'clock. SPECTER. So that the operation on Governor Connally had not been completed at that point? KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir. SPECTER. Do you have any additional knowledge about any bullet in Governor Connally? KELLERMAN. I do not. SPECTER. Have you now told us about all of the facts which you took into account in your conclusion that there were more than three shots? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Mr. Kellerman, by way of explanation or elaboration, to tell us which might be helpful with respect to your conclusion based on all of these items which you have described to us that there were more than three shots? KELLERMAN. Gentlemen, I think if you would view the films yourself you may come up with a little different answer. SPECTER. Well, have you viewed the films, Mr. Kellerman? KELLERMAN. I have; yes, sir. SPECTER. Was there something special in your viewing of the films which led you to believe that there were more than three shots? KELLERMAN. No: it doesn't point out more than three shots, sir. SPECTER. Which films are you referring to? KELLERMAN. These are the colored ones that were taken on the right side. SPECTER. Taken by Mr. Abraham Zapruder? KELLERMAN. I don't know. SPECTER. You are not familiar with the photographer? KELLERMAN. No; I am not. SPECTER. Well, can you describe the view you say is from the right-hand side of the automobile? KELLERMAN. That is right. SPECTER. So that would be on the side of the road where the Texas School Book Depository Building was? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. SPECTER. And approximately where did those pictures begin and end? KELLERMAN. These pictures began as we turned off Houston Street onto Elm. SPECTER. And where did they end? KELLERMAN. As we are, just before we are, going into the viaduct. SPECTER. Were those black and white or in color? KELLERMAN. No; they were colored. SPECTER. Have you seen any other films of the assassination? KELLERMAN. Yes; I saw a black-and-white, but I didn't — I saw a black and-white film. However, I didn't get enough out of it there to — SPECTER. Before proceeding any further, I would like to move for introduction in the evidence of Exhibit 351. FORD. It is approved. (The windshield referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 351 for identification and was received in evidence.) SPECTER. Do you have anything at all to add which you think might be helpful, Mr. Kellerman, on the question of how many shots were fired, have you told us everything you have in mind on that question? KELLERMAN. I believe I have, Mr. Specter. COOPER. What was the name of the special agent driving the car — the President's car? KELLERMAN. William Greer. COOPER. He was the one to whom you spoke when you heard the report? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. COOPER. Has he ever expressed any opinion to you as to the number of shots that were fired? KELLERMAN. No, sir. I think we are all of the opinion, Senator, that we know of three. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, referring to Commission Exhibit No. 347, will you pinpoint as precisely as you can on that aerial shot, aerial picture, where the President's car was at the time of the first shot? And mark that, if you would, please, with an "X" in red Pencil. KELLERMAN. My guess would be right in here, sir. SPECTER. Now, would you mark as closely as you can where the President's car was at the time of the second shot and mark that with a "Y" in red. (Mr. Kellerman marking the picture.) SPECTER. Now, you have marked the cars being in approximately the middle of the road; is that accurate, as you recollect it? KELLERMAN. That is the general procedure, Mr. Specter; they were traveling in the center of the road. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the time of the third shot, would your marking be any different from the "y" position? KELLERMAN. No; it would not. SPECTER. Now, from the time of the shooting until the time the automobile arrived at Parkland Hospital, did anyone in the President's car say anything that you have not already told us about? KELLERMAN. No, sir. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, there is a report from the Federal Bureau of Investigation designated "Bureau File No. 105" — I believe there is an "S" although it is somewhat illegible on my copy — " — S2555, report of Robert p. Gemberling, dated December 10, 1963, which refers to an interview of you by Special Agent Francis X. O'Neill, Jr., and James W. Special Agent Sibert, in which the following is set forth: "He" — and this obviously refers to You — "advised that he heard a shot and immediately turned around looking past Governor Connally who was seated forward directly in back of him, to the President. He observed the President slumped and heard him say ‘get me to a hospital.' Mr. Kellerman then heard Mrs. Kennedy say, ‘Oh, no,' as the President leaned toward her." That is the end of the quotation. My question is: Did you hear him; did you hear President Kennedy say, "Get me to a hospital"? KELLERMAN. No, sir. SPECTER. Did you hear Mrs. Kennedy say, "Oh, no"? KELLERMAN. No, sir. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge or explanation as to why you would have been so quoted in the report of the FBI? KELLERMAN. When these two gentlemen talked to me, I don't know where they got those quotes, because the only two things that I told them, they were interested in what I heard from the people in the back seat, and one said "My God, I have been hit," which was President Kennedy, and Mrs. Kennedy said, "What are they doing to you?" SPECTER. You were interviewed, however, by Mr. O'Neill and Mr. Sibert on November 22, 1963? KELLERMAN. November what? SPECTER. November 22. KELLERMAN. No. November 22 is when they were in the morgue with me. They interviewed me in the office that — it was around the 27th. This was after the funeral. SPECTER. Did they have any conversation with you about these events in the morgue? KELLERMAN. Not that I recall, sir. SPECTER. Did you have a discussion with either of those gentlemen about anything while you were at the morgue on November 22? KELLERMAN. The only thing I can recall discussion wise — I just forget which one it was, one of the two — I just forget which one it was, one of the two — this was before we even knew that a shell had been found from the hole in the President's shoulder. We couldn't determine what happened to it. They couldn't find it in the morgue; they couldn't find any leeway as to whatever happened to the shell when it hit the President's shoulder; where did it go. So our contention was that while he was on the stretcher in Dallas, and the neurosurgeon was working over him no doubt with pressure on the heart, this thing worked itself out. SPECTER. When you say "our contention," what do you mean by that? KELLERMAN. One of these agents — I forget which one it was; it could have been Sibert or O'Neill, but I am not sure this was before we even knew that a shell had been found from the hole in the President's shoulder. We couldn't determine what happened to it. They couldn't find it in the morgue; they couldn't find any leeway as to whatever happened to the shell when it hit the President's shoulder; where did it go. So our contention was that while he was on the stretcher in Dallas, and the neurosurgeon was working over himno doubt with pressure on the heart, this thing worked itself out. SPECTER. When you say "our contention," what do you mean by that? KELLERMAN. One of these agents — I forget which one it was; it could have been Sibert or O'Neill, but I am not sure. SPECTER. Did what? KELLERMAN. We our discussion or my discussion. SPECTER. You had a discussion and when you say "our contention" by that do you mean that was the conclusion you made. KELLERMAN. Conclusion — that is right, sir — as to where this bullet went into the shoulder and where did it go. SPECTER. While you are on that subject, was there any conversation at the time of the autopsy on that matter itself? KELLERMAN. Very much so. SPECTER. Would you relate to the Commission the nature of that conversation and the parties to it? KELLERMAN. There were three gentlemen who were Performing this autopsy. A Colonel Finck — during the examination of the president, from the hole that was in his shoulder, and with a probe, and we were standing right alongside of him, he is probing inside the shoulder with his instrument and I said, "Colonel, where did it go?" He said, "There are no lanes for an outlet of this entry in this man's shoulder." SPECTER. Did you say anything in response to that? KELLERMAN. I said, "Colonel, would it have been possible that while he was on the stretcher in Dallas that it works itself out?" And he said, "Yes." SPECTER. Was there any additional conversation between you and Colonel Finck at that time? KELLERMAN. Not on that point; no, sir; not on that point. SPECTER. Was there any conversation of any sort between you and Colonel Finck which would be helpful to us here? KELLERMAN. Well, from Humes, who was the other gentleman out there, from the entry of the skull, from this hole here. SPECTER. You are now referring to the hole which you describe being below the missing part of the skull? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it was confirmed that the entry of the shell here went right through the top and removed that piece of the skull. SPECTER. And who confirmed that? KELLERMAN. One of the three gentlemen; I don't recall. SPECTER. You don't recall which one, but it was one of the three doctors doing the autopsy? KELLERMAN. That is right. SPECTER. So you are saying it confirmed that the hole that was below the piece of skull that was removed, was the point of entry of the one bullet which then passed up through the head and took off the skull? KELLERMAN. Right, sir. That is correct. SPECTER. Then that was all done by one bullet, based on what you are telling us at this moment? KELLERMAN. That is right. SPECTER. From the confirmation that one of the three doctors made? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Now, was there any other conversation between you and Colonel Finck or Commander Humes— KELLERMAN. No. SPECTER. At that time, which was important on the subject we are discussing? KELLERMAN. Actually, from all the X-rays that were taken, and we viewed them all together; when I say "we," I am saying the medical people who were in the morgue at the time, the two Bureau agents, myself, and also Mr. Greer, who was in there with me, naturally, they were looking for pieces of fragmentation of this bullet. There was none; only one piece to my knowledge. That was removed inside above the eye, the right eye. SPECTER. You have now told us all about the conversations between you and Colonel Finck and Commander Humes and anyone else at the autopsy which are important on the positions of the hole and the wounds in the head? KELLERMAN. Right, sir. SPECTER. Did you have any other conversation with either Special Agent O'Neill or Special Agent Sibert of the FBI on November 22, 1963, other than your conversations about the wounds on President Kennedy? KELLERMAN. No. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, while we are discussing this in relationship to your conversations with Special Agents O'Neill and Sibert, were there any other comments made by anybody else present at the autopsy about the path of the bullet into Mr. Kennedy's back. relating to whether there was any point of exit or anything of that sort? KELLERMAN. Colonel Finck did all the talking, sir. He was the only one. SPECTER. Now, have you told us everything Colonel Finck said about that subject? KELLERMAN. Very much so; yes, sir. SPECTER. So that there is nothing that was said on that subject other than what you have already told us about? KELLERMAN. No; that is right. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, I have read to you a part of what Special Agents O'Neill and Sibert have attributed to you in an interview which they have written about on November 22, 1963. Referring to that in the portion which I have read to you and which I will reread, I want you to direct your attention to the issue about which way you turned. The report states, "He advised he heard a shot and immediately turned around looking past Governor ConnaIly who was seated directly in back of him to the President." Now, did that describe a turn to the right or to the left? This is a difficult question. Let me interject one thing. We are presupposing here, based on your testimony, that you did not discuss with Special Agents O'Neill or Sibert these specific events on November 22, to the best of your recoIIection as we sit here today. KELLERMAN. That is right. SPECTER. So that the question really goes to a situation where perhaps they have an inaccurate day or your recollection is inaccurate as to some of the things you might have told them. So, my prefatory question would he whether that is an accurate statement and is something you told them at some time. KELLERMAN. I don't believe I did. I think I will stand on my original statement. FORD. The original statement you made here today? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; very much. SPECTER. So that the statement I just read to you, so far as your best— KELLERMAN. I can't SPECTER. So far as your best testimony is at this time, it was simply not made by you on November 22? KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. SPECTER. All right, now. Was that statement I just read to you, the short one about your turn, to the best of your recollection at this moment, did you ever make that statement to Special Agents O'Neill and/or Sibert? KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, everybody I have talked to I have always turned to the right when I first heard the noise. I turned to my left to view the people in my back seat because it is a more comfortable position. So I don't think the turning is correct, sir. SPECTER. Would you say the report is incorrect? KELLERMAN. That is right. FORD. May I ask — you have viewed these colored motion pictures which were taken during the assassination. Have you looked at those to see what your own actions were during this period of time? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. FORD. Do they coincide with what you have testified to here today? KELLERMAN. They certainly do. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 352, and ask you if you can tell us what that picture represents? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; this was the rear seat of the President's car, sir, after all the occupants were removed. SPECTER. And when did the rear seat of the President's car look like the picture 352? KELLERMAN. After all the occupants were removed on the 22nd of November. SPECTER. When the car was parked at Parkland Hospital? KELLERMAN. I don't know where this picture was taken, sir. This could have been taken in the White House garage. SPECTER. Yes; but aside from where the picture was taken. is that the way the car looked at the time it was at Parkland Hospital after President Kennedy and Governor Connally were removed-from the car? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Will you describe for the written record very briefly what this picture shows? KELLERMAN. The picture shows the complete rear seat of the Presidential limousine. SPECTER. What, if anything, is on the rear seat? KELLERMAN. On the seat part of this car is splattered with blood; there are a few petals of flowers, and the back seat cushion part is pretty well bloodied up. SPECTER. I move for the introduction in evidence of Commission Exhibit No. 352. FORD. So admitted. (The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 352 for identification, and received in evidence.) SPECTER. I now hand you, through the Chairman, Commission Exhibit No. 353, move its admission into evidence, and ask you to tell us what this depicts. KELLERMAN. This is the same Presidential vehicle after the occupants have been removed from the rear seat. It shows the goodly amount of blood that had remained on the cushion and back part of the seat and also little flower petals. SPECTER. Is Exhibit No. 353 an accurate representation of the way the rear seat of the president's automobile looked after— KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. SPECTER. After President Kennedy and Governor Connally were removed to Parkland Hospital. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it is. SPECTER. You have described in answers to previous questions what occurred upon the arrival at Parkland of the President's automobile. What action, if any, did you take immediately after president Kennedy and Governor Connally were taken into the hospital? KELLERMAN. I believe we had got to the point where I had made this phone call to Washington to alert these people back here of the incident. SPECTER. And proceeding from that point — KELLERMAN. From this point the agents who were in this follow-up car had joined me in the emergency room. They took up security posts at entrance into the emergency room to keep it clear of all people except medical people. The only people allowed in there would be workers. After this was done, Special Agent Kinney came to me and asked permission to remove the President's car and our follow-up car to the airport, to load it aboard this aircraft for shipment to Washington, and I said, "Yes." At that time the next move was Special Agent Warren Taylor, who was assigned to the then Vice president Johnson, came to me and he said, "Mr. Johnson wants to talk to you." So, I followed him into this room that they had the Johnson party in. He asked me the condition of President Kennedy, which I told him that President Kennedy is still in the emergency room, his condition is serious. He then said, "You let me know of any developments." I then returned to the emergency room. By that time another shift of agents, who were at the Trade Mart on duty for prior to our arrival, reported into the emergency room. This is what is called as our afternoon shift, the 4 to 12. Mr. Roberts, whose group was on the follow-up car in the motorcade through Dallas, was the 8-to-4 shift. The 4-to-12 shift then was under the supervision of Mr. Stewart Stout. I then instructed Mr. Roberts to take his shift, which were the day people, and join Special Agent Rufus Youngblood and stay with Vice President Johnson. SPECTER. How many agents were they to take with them? KELLERMAN. They took the entire follow-up car, which would mean that they had Roberts, Ready, Bennett, McIntyre; those four. SPECTER. Do you know where they went or what specifically they did by way of establishing security for Vice President Johnson? KELLERMAN. No; I really don't. SPECTER. What was your next activity? KELLERMAN. My next move, then, my next part in this was — by this time it was after 1 o'clock — I am trying to pinpoint time — after 1, because Dr. Burkley said that the President had died; it was after 1 o'clock. By this time other people who were in with Mr. Kennedy, such as his staff — I am speaking of Mr. O'Donnell, Mr. Powers, I believe Larry O'Brien — through them, and I believe Mr. Hill, they had obtained a casket from one of the funeral people in town. SPECTER. Where had Mrs. Kennedy been during this time? KELLERMAN. Mrs. Kennedy was right outside the door to the emergency room. SPECTER. How long, if at all, was she inside the emergency room with President Kennedy? KELLERMAN. This I can't truly answer. However, I should say that, as for the casket being brought into the hospital, another gentleman came into this little doctor's room, his name I don't recall, but he represented himself to be from the Health Department or commission, some form. He said to me, he said, "There has been a homicide here, you won't be able to remove the body. We will have to take it down there to the mortuary and have an autopsy." I said, "No, we are not." And he said, "We have a law here whereby you have to comply with it." With that Dr. Burkley walked in, and I said, "Doctor, this man is from some health unit in town. He tells me we can't remove this body." The Doctor became a little enraged; he said, "We are removing it." He said, "This is the President of the United States and there should be some consideration in an event like this." And I told this gentleman, I said, "You are going to have to come up with something a little stronger than you to give me the law that this body can't be removed." So, he frantically called everybody he could think of and he hasn't got an answer; nobody is home. Shortly he leaves this little room and it seems like a few minutes he is back and he has another gentleman with him, and he said. "This is" — the name escapes me — he said. "He is a judge here in Dallas," and he said, "He will tell you whether you can remove this body or not." I said, "It doesn't make any difference. We are going to move it," and I said, "Judge, do you know who I am?" And he said, "Yes," and I said, "There must be something in your thinking here that we don't have to go through this agony; the family doesn't have to go through this. We will take care of the matter when we get back to Washington." The poor man looked at me and he said, "I know who you are," and he said, "I can't help you out." I said. "All right, sir." But then I happened to look to the right and I can see the casket coming on rollers, and I just left the room and let it out through the emergency entrance and we got to the ambulance and put it in, shut the door after Mrs. Kennedy and General McHugh and Clinton Hill in the rear part of this ambulance. I am looking around for Mr. Greer and I don't spot him directly because I want to get out of here in a hurry, and I recognize Agent Berger and I said, "Berger, you get in the front seat and drive and, Mr. Stout. you get in the middle and I will get on this side," and as we are leaving — Mr. Lawson, I should say, was in a police car that led us away from Parkland Memorial Hospital. As we are leaving a gentleman taps on the driver's window and they roll it down and he says, "I will meet you at the mortuary." "Yes, sir." We went to the airport, gentlemen. SPECTER. Who said, "Yes, sir"? KELLERMAN. I did sir. We went to the airport. In the meantime, Mr. Johnson had been taken to the airplane. They had secured the airport; nobody was there. They had removed seats off the rear part of the plane so we could put the body and the casket in it. As we got to the airport the ramp was there; we opened the door, and we moved the casket out and walked it right up to the plane. SPECTER. Was there any further difficulty of any sort — KELLERMAN. No. SPECTER. Impeded by any Texas officials on the removal of the body? KELLERMAN. No, sir. Whatever happened to the hearse, I don't know. I never left the plane. SPECTER. Did you observe — KELLERMAN. We left the hospital; we have a time on that; it is 4 minutes after 2. It is about a 10-minute ride to the airplane. SPECTER. On the question of timing, pinning down these times as best we can, how long did it take you to get from the shooting incident to the time you arrived at Parkland, based on your best estimates? KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, it seemed like hours, but we flew there, I honestly don't know. I can't really tell you. SPECTER. What is the best estimate of the speed of your vehicle en route from the shooting to the hospital? KELLERMAN. I don't know. COOPER. Let the record show that Congressman Ford has to go to his official duties in the House and that I, Senator Cooper, am now acting as Chairman. (At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.) COOPER. Go ahead. SPECTER. Moving ahead, then, on to the sequences of time as best you can recollect them, Mr. Kellerman. At what time was it ascertained that the President had died and what was the basis of the pronouncement of death? KELLERMAN. That was on the death certificate, sir. SPECTER. Did you learn at or about 1 o'clock, while you were at Parkland Hospital, that he had died? KELLERMAN. I would think so. However, at that time let me say that wasn't watching any clock too closely and this time was given to me by Dr. Burkley. SPECTER. Then you have no independent recollection of time at Parkland when the death was announced or pronounced? KELLERMAN. No. SPECTER. Now, then, you have specified the time of departure from Parkland Hospital and en route back to Love Field at what, sir? KELLERMAN. We departed at 4 minutes after 2 from Parkland. SPECTER. What time did you arrive at the President's plane? KELLERMAN. 2:14. SPECTER. What were your next activities? KELLERMAN. Our next time, we had waited until Judge Sarah Hughes had arrived for the swearing-in ceremonies. SPECTER. What time did the swearing-in ceremonies occur? KELLERMAN. 2:37 p.m. SPECTER. And what time did the plane depart from Dallas? KELLERMAN. We left at 2:48. SPECTER. Were you present during the swearing-in ceremonies? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. SPECTER. In a general way, tell us who else was present there, recognizing that you don't know all the people there. KELLERMAN. Yes. President Johnson, Mrs. Johnson, Mrs. Kennedy, Malcolm Kilduff. He was the press secretary for that trip. Congressman Thornberry, Congressman Thomas, Marie Febmet, Mrs. Evelyn Lincoln, Jack Valenti, Bill Moyers, Special Agent Johns. There was another congressional man — I believe his name was Congressman Roberts — Brooks; I am sorry; Congressman Brooks. The picture was taken by Capt. Cecil Stoughton and myself. SPECTER. What time did the President's plane arrive back at the Washington area? KELLERMAN. May I look at my notes, sir? SPECTER. Yes; you may. Identify for us, if you will, what notes you are referring to. KELLERMAN. 5:58 p.m. This is my report. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Kellerman has just referred to a four-page report dated November 29, 1963, entitled "The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963, at Dallas, Tex.," which is a copy of a report he made, three of the sheets being carbon copies, and one being a photostatic reproduction. So that our record may be complete, let the record show that this is the same report which Mr. Kellerman submitted to the Secret Service which was, in turn, submitted by the Secret Service to the Commission, as one of the statements in Exhibit 12, statement 11, which was furnished by the Secret Service to the Commission as the report of the U.S. Secret Service on the assassination of President Kennedy, under the exhibits section. I will return that to you. KELLERMAN. Fine; thank you. SPECTER. What were your activities; specifically where did you land in the Washington area? KELLERMAN. We landed at Andrews Air Force Base. SPECTER. What were your activities then, immediately after landing at Andrews? KELLERMAN. While en route from Dallas to Washington, D.C., I had several telephone communications with my special agent in charge, Gerald Behn, concerning this, transportation for the people aboard the plane, an ambulance for the body of President Kennedy, and my instructions. I was instructed to stay with the late President Kennedy. Aboard this plane were agents of the 4-to-12 shift which, as I mentioned earlier, was under the supervision of Mr. Stewart Stout; a conference was held with Mr. Rufus Youngblood, who was in charge of the Johnson detail at that time. He was informed that he would take all the agents under Mr. Stout's supervision and they would remain with them for the remainder of the day. That I would have Special Agents Hill, Landis, Greer, and O'Leary. As we arrived at Andrews Air Force Base, arrangements were made prior to having a lift brought up to the rear end of the plane, whereby all the agents were requested by Mrs. Kennedy to carry this casket from the plane to the ambulance. It was put aboard this carrier; from there we took it from the carrier into the Navy ambulance. Mrs. Kennedy rode in the back seat, or in the rear part of the ambulance, with Mr. Robert Kennedy and General McHugh. In the front seat the ambulance was driven by Special Agent Greer, of which Agents Landis and myself and Dr. Burkley rode in the front seat to the U.S. Naval Hospital in Bethesda. At that point Navy officials there instructed us where to take the ambulance, to what part of the building, and remove the casket into the morgue facilities. As we landed in Andrews Air Force Base, I was met by our Chief, Mr. James Rowley, who informed me that Mr. Sibert and Mr. O'Neill of the FBI would join me at the Naval Hospital and to allow them in. I also informed him that the vehicles — that is, the President's car and our Secret Service follow-up car — are en route to Washington from Dallas, and that he should assign some members from our Washington field office to go over these cars for any evidence that might be left. In the morgue, I should say that Special Agent Greer and myself remained all night, Mr. O'Leary only briefly. SPECTER. Where did the— KELLERMAN. The family was placed— SPECTER. Where did the family go? KELLERMAN. They were placed in a room in the tower section of the Naval Hospital. SPECTER. Did you actually accompany the body from the vehicle to the morgue room? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. SPECTER. And were you present during the entire autopsy? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Tell us in a general way KELLERMAN. I only left on three different occasions. SPECTER. For how long were you absent on those occasions? KELLERMAN. A minute or two to make a phone call. SPECTER. While the autopsy was in session, or when did you leave on those three occasions? KELLERMAN. OK. First I was informed by a Navy personnel that I should call Mr. Rowley. There wasn't any phone — there was a phone in the room, but I wasn't aware of it at the time. So, I left and walked out into the corridor and called him. This was my first knowledge that they had found a projectile. The second call, I think I called home; that was my first call to home and that was it. SPECTER. Now, the projectile that you just referred to was found where? KELLERMAN. This was the projectile that was reportedly given to our Special Agent Richard Johnson as we were leaving the hospital in Dallas. SPECTER. How did you find out about that? KELLERMAN. He says it was given to him by a security man or security officer in the hospital. SPECTER. When did you first hear about it? KELLERMAN. The phone call with Mr. Rowley that morning after we had got to the morgue. SPECTER. What time was this? KELLERMAN. I am only guessing; 9 o'clock in the evening. SPECTER. Nine o'clock in the evening. You had said morning; you didn't mean morning; you meant 9 o'clock in the evening when you had a telephone call. From whom was the call again? KELLERMAN. Mr. Rowley, Chief of Secret Service. SPECTER. You got the phone call from Mr. Rowley? KELLERMAN. Yes. SPECTER. Who had called him, if you know? KELLERMAN. This I don't know. SPECTER. But at that time Chief Rowley advised of the detection of the bullet on the stretcher and brought you up to date with what information was known at that time? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Now, have you described all the times that you were absent from the room of the autopsy? KELLERMAN. The only other time that I was absent was when the autopsy was about completed before the funeral directors were in, and it was my decision to get Mr. Hill down and view this man for all the damage that was done; so I went up to the floor where they were at and brought him down and he inspected the incisions. SPECTER. What was your reason for that, Mr. Kellerman? KELLERMAN. More witnesses, Mr. Specter; I think more to view the unfortunate happenings it would be a little better. SPECTER. What time did that autopsy start as you recollect it? KELLERMAN. Immediately. Immediately after we brought him right in. SPECTER. What time was that approximately, if you have a recollection? KELLERMAN. I don't have a recollection, SPECTER. What time did it end, if you recollect? KELLERMAN. We left the hospital for the White House at 3:56 in the morning. SPECTER. 3:56 a.m. on November 23? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Did the autopsy last all that time? KELLERMAN. No. They were going to give these people a couple of hours that they worked on them. SPECTER. Now, did you observe, during the course of the autopsy, bullet fragments which you might describe as little stars? KELLERMAN. Yes, of the numerous X-rays that were taken mainly of the skull, the head. The reason for it was that through all the probing which these gentlemen were trying to pick up little pieces of evidence in the form of shell fragments, they were unable to locate any. From the X-rays, when you placed the X-ray up against the light the whole head looked like a little mass of stars, there must have been 30, 40 lights where these pieces were so minute that they couldn't be reached. However, all through this series of X-rays this was the one that they found, through X-ray that was above the right eye, and they removed that. SPECTER. How big a piece was that above the right eye, would you say? KELLERMAN. The tip of a matchhead, a little larger. COOPER. Let me ask a few questions. Mr. Kellerman, from what you have just said, I think it would be correct that from the time you began to assist in removing President Kennedy from his car to the time you left him in the emergency room that you never saw any bullet on a stretcher, either his stretcher or Governor Connally's stretcher? KELLERMAN. I never saw any bullet, sir. COOPER. I believe you testified that, at the time you heard this first report, the President's car was approaching a viaduct? KELLERMAN. Approaching, yes, but quite a little distance from it, sir. COOPER. Can you make any estimate as to how far away it was. KELLERMAN. I don't know the footage, Senator Cooper. COOPER. Can you see it? KELLERMAN. Yes; oh. yes. sir. COOPER. Can you see the viaduct plainly? KELLERMAN. Oh, yea, sir. COOPER. Could you tell whether anybody was standing on top of the viaduct, or did you observe? KELLERMAN. I didn't notice anybody up there at all, sir. COOPER. Did you observe whether anyone was in the immediate vicinity of the viaduct? KELLERMAN. Not at this distance; no. COOPER. Do you have any — at the time of the shots, at the time that you were conscious of these shots being fired, do you have any judgment as to from what direction they came? KELLERMAN. None whatsoever. Except I should say again that when this first one went off, which I indicated here that it sounded like a firecracker to my right and, say, rear, I looked to my right to see what it was. COOPER. Then it would be correct to say it was your judgment at the time, at the time of the report KELLERMAN. It was my judgment, sir. COOPER. That it was to the right and to the rear? KELLERMAN. That would be correct. It was my judgment, sir. COOPER. Did you observe any persons standing to the right of the car? KELLERMAN. Maybe a handful. COOPER. Did you see anything to indicate that any shot had been fired by those persons? KELLERMAN. No, Sir; not at the time. COOPER. When you heard the report and turned, could you see this building known as the Texas Book Depository? KELLERMAN. Not by name. You could see the building because we passed right in front of it, sir. COOPER. You didn't know it as the Texas Depository Building? KELLERMAN. Not then, no, sir. COOPER. Have you any idea how — what distance the President's car traveled from the time you heard the first report until the time you have described as hearing the flurry of shots? KELLERMAN. No; I really don't know the distance. It wasn't too far. COOPER. What? KELLERMAN. It wasn't too far. SPECTER. For the record, I have some more questions when we reconvene. COOPER. We will recess then until 2 o'clock. (Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) Afternoon Session TESTIMONY OF ROY H. KELLERMAN, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE, RESUMED The President's COmmission reconvened at 2 p.m. FORD. The Commission will come to order. Will you proceed, Mr. Specter? SPECTER. Yea, thank you. Mr. Kellerman, immediately before the luncheon recess, Senator Cooper had asked some questions relating to the presence of anyone on the triple overpass which was in front of the President's car. Did you have any occasion, immediately before or immediately after the shooting to look for anyone on the triple overpass or in that vicinity? KELLERMAN. No; I really didn't. SPECTER. Are you in a position to state, then, whether there was or was not someone on the triple overpass? KELLERMAN. No; I am in no position to state that. SPECTER. At the time of the shooting, did you observe any bullets richochet off of the windshield or off of any other part of the automobile? KELLERMAN. No. If any of the bullets richocheted off the windshield or front part of the car, this would have been matter that was blown over mine and the driver's head from, I would say, the explosion of President Kennedy's head. SPECTER. But aside from the portions of President Kennedy's head which you have already testified about, you observed nothing detectable as being bullet fragments or bullets? KELLERMAN. No, sir. SPECTER. Richocheting off any part of the car? KELLERMAN. No, sir. SPECTER. And did you ever observe any bullet fragments in the car at rest after the shooting? KELLERMAN. No, sir. SPECTER. Did you observe a priest at Parkland Hospital? KELLERMAN. Yes; there were two. SPECTER. And approximately what time were they present at the hospital? KELLERMAN. When we brought President Kennedy into the emergency room, the request for a priest was made immediately by one of the members of the staff. I do not recall who called for one. However, in the interim, a second call was sent out. Consequently, two showed; not at the same time, but one after the other. SPECTER. How long were they at the hospital? KELLERMAN. Just a matter of a couple of minutes of time. SPECTER. And do you know where they went upon arrival at the hospital? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. They went right in the emergency room with the President. SPECTER. Were you in the emergency room at the time they were there? KELLERMAN. No, sir. SPECTER. And do you know what services, if any, they performed while they were there? KELLERMAN. No, sir. SPECTER. Did you have any conversations with either of them while they were en route, either coming or going? KELLERMAN. No, sir. SPECTER. With respect to the state of readiness of Parkland Hospital at your arrival, how long after you got there were stretcher bearers at the front door? KELLERMAN. To the best of my knowledge, there were no stretcher bearers at the car — none. SPECTER. At your arrival? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Did some come shortly after you arrived? KELLERMAN. No, sir. SPECTER. Well, what sequence did follow with respect to the arrival of the stretchers? KELLERMAN. When we arrived at the hospital, I had called to the agents to go inside and get two stretchers on wheels. Between those people and police officers who also entered the emergency room, they brought the stretchers out. I did not at any time see a man in a white uniform outside, indicating a medical person. SPECTER. When did you first see the first indication of a doctor? KELLERMAN. When we got in the emergency room itself proper. SPECTER. And do you know which doctor that was? KELLERMAN. Not by name or sight; no, sir. SPECTER. How many doctors did you see at that time? KELLERMAN. The room was full. SPECTER. Who were the individuals who brought the stretchers on wheels, if you know? KELLERMAN. Agents who were in the follow-up car, police officers who were ahead of us on motorcycles. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, did you state how long the autopsy lasted when you testified this morning? KELLERMAN. No; I didn't. However, this is going to be an assumption on time; I think I can pin it pretty well. SPECTER. Give us your best estimate on that, please. KELLERMAN. Let's come back to the period of our arrival at Andrews Air Force Base, which was 5:58 p.m. at night. By the time it took us to take the body from the plane into the ambulance, and a couple of carloads of staff people who followed us, we may have spent 15 minutes there. And in driving from Andrews to the U.S. Naval Hospital, I would judge, a good 45 minutes. So there is 7 o'clock. We went immediately over, without too much delay on the outside of the hospital, into the morgue. The Navy people had their staff in readiness right then. There wasn't anybody to call. They were all there. So at the latest, 7:30, they began to work on the autopsy. And, as I said, we left the hospital at 3:56 in the morning. Let's give the undertaker people 2 hours. So they were through at 2 o'clock in the morning. I would judge offhand that they worked on the autopsy angle 4-5 hours. SPECTER. And were you present when the funeral director's personnel were preparing the body? KELLERMAN. I was; yes, sir. SPECTER. And about what time, then, did they complete their work? KELLERMAN. They were all through at 3:30. SPECTER. And what did you do immediately after they completed their work? KELLERMAN. All right. Our communication between the Kennedy family and staff, who were on another floor in the hospital, was in this regard. We had telephone communication whereby we would tell them if the body is ready to be taken out of the morgue and into the ambulance. And they would hit the elevator and come right out the same way. So the 5 minutes it took to load the people in, we left the hospital morgue part at least at 3:50, and, as I say, we were off at 3:56, driving to the White House. SPECTER. And did you go directly to the White House? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; we did. SPECTER. Did that complete your tour of duty for that day? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it did. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the time you were present at the autopsy, was there any conversation of any sort concerning the possibility of a point of entry from the front of the President's body? KELLERMAN. No. SPECTER. You have testified about the impression you had as to the source of the first shot, which sounded to you like a firecracker. Did you have any impression as to the source of the other shots, which you described as being a flurry? KELLERMAN. If you will excuse me just a minute. I was trying to elaborate on the last question. SPECTER. Pardon me. Go ahead. KELLERMAN. Just for the record, I wish to have this down. While the President is in the morgue, he is lying flat. And with the part of the skull removed, and the hole in the throat, nobody was aware until they lifted him up that there was a hole in his shoulder. That was the first concrete evidence that they knew that the man was hit in the back first. SPECTER. When did they lift him up and first observe the hole in the shoulder? KELLERMAN. They had been working on him for quite some time, Mr. Specter — through the photos and other things they do through an autopsy. And I believe it was this Colonel Finck who raised him and there was a clean hole. SPECTER. What was said, if anything, by those present at the autopsy concerning the wound in the throat? KELLERMAN. To go back just a little further, the reason for the hole in the throat, the tracheotomy; I am thinking they were of the opinion that when the — when he was shot in the head, and they had found this piece remaining above the eye underneath; I am sure there was some concern as to where the outlet was, and whether they considered — this is all an assumption now: whether they considered this — that there was a hole here in the throat prior to the tracheotomy, I don't know. But to complete the examination they lifted him up by the shoulders, and there was this hole. Now, I think you asked me a question. Could you repeat it, please? SPECTER. Well, let's be sure that we have your final answer on the question of any conversation at all about a point of entry in the front part of his body, in his throat, or any place else. KELLERMAN. I don't believe, Mr. Specter, that it was ever concluded that there was an entry in the front. SPECTER. Then that completes the conversations at the autopsy? KELLERMAN. Yes. sir. SPECTER. On any of the subjects I have asked you about? KELLERMAN. Right. SPECTER. The question which I had then started to ask you was whether you had any impression at the time of the second and third shots, which you described as a flurry of shots, as to the point of origin or source of those shots. KELLERMAN. The only answer I can give to that is that they would have to come from the rear. SPECTER. Well, is that the impression or reaction you had at the time of the flurry? KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. SPECTER. Have you ever, since the time of the assassination to this date, had any contrary impression, reaction, or view that the shots came from the front of the President? KELLERMAN. No. SPECTER. Now, Mr. Kellerman, with respect to the immediate reaction by you to the emergency situation, did you consider at any time leaving your seat, on the right front of the President's automobile, to go into the rear portion, where the President sat? KELLERMAN. No, sir. SPECTER. And what is the basis for or what was the basis for your conclusion on that? KELLERMAN. After I had heard President Kennedy's voice say, "My God, I am hit," I viewed him, which was enough for me that he was. My decision was to get this man to a hospital, because he needed medical treatment. And during the few seconds that I instructed the driver to get out of here, we are hit, my second instruction was to the man in the lead car ahead of us for the same, to lead us to a hospital, that we are hit. I then turn around, and I had two people injured. Not only was the President down in his seat; the Governor was down in his seat. My presence back there was gone. On top of that, I had Mr. Hill lying across that trunk. SPECTER. What do you mean when you say, sir, that your presence back there was gone? KELLERMAN. They were comfortable, if there is a comfort in this. Mr. Hill was taking care of Mrs. Kennedy. Mrs. Connally was over the Governor; there was no motion. The next thing was a doctor, sir. SPECTER. Did you consider presenting a further shield for the President at that time? KELLERMAN. No, sir. SPECTER. Did the metallic handhold which you described early in your testimony as being about 15 inches off the top of the seat and going all the way across the width of the car, did that metal structure present any substantial impediment to your moving from the front seat to the rear seat of the automobile? KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, I think it would have been a small obstacle. However, let me say this: If I thought in my own mind that I was needed back there, there wouldn't have been an obstacle strong enough to hold me. SPECTER. How about the presence of Governor Connally in the jump seat? Would the presence of Governor Connally or any passenger in the jump seat provide a substantial obstacle to your moving from your seat to shield the President's body? KELLERMAN. Not at all. It wouldn't have made any difference, sir. Why? Because my job is to protect the President, sir, regardless of the obstacles. SPECTER. Did Mr. Greer at any time use the radio in your car? KELLERMAN. No, sir. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, did the President's automobile at any time slow down after the first shot? KELLERMAN. No; not that I recall. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, that completes our questions, sir. FORD. As you turned from Houston onto Elm, you were then facing the triple overpass? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. FORD. You were looking forward at the time? KELLERMAN. Yes. FORD. You were not looking to the side particularly, or back at all? KELLERMAN. Don't let me change your thought, Mr. Congressman. But as we turned left on Elm, there is also another curve before you get to this overpass. FORD. A rather slight curve to the right? KELLERMAN. Very much. I still knew there was an overpass. FORD. But your concentration was ahead? KELLERMAN. Ahead. FORD. Not to the side or to the rear? KELLERMAN. No; not to the rear especially; that is true. Let me explain a little more. When you are riding in this automobile, which is with him, and on your right side, naturally you are observing more on the right. It is obvious. However, you still have time periodically to glance over to the left for viewing anything that might be of a danger — whether it is people or any other object. FORD. There is no way you would know from personal observation in what direction the President was looking at the time he was hit by the first shot? KELLERMAN. That is right; I would not. FORD. Could you outline for us here the process by which you were put in charge of this particular operation? KELLERMAN. Yes. FORD. Can you outline for us the procedure that is followed in such cases? KELLERMAN. Yes, indeed. As I said earlier, we have three people, for a better word, in charge of the White House detail. Mr. Behn — Gerald Behn — is the special agent in charge. There are two assistants, Floyd Boring and myself. On all trips this was a divided matter. And this one was my trip. Not that I picked it or anything. It was my trip that Mr. Behn said, "You will make this one with the President." The other two people would have other duties to do. And this is how it fell on to me for that day, sir. FORD. Once this assignment is made by Mr. Behn, what happens after that? KELLERMAN. In regard to who, sir? FORD. To your responsibilities. KELLERMAN. The overall. FORD. In other words, from that assignment by Mr. Behn, you take charge; you execute; you make assignments and so forth? KELLERMAN. Only one thing. I am not going to say that I don't make assignments. Mr. Congressman, these people all work in a team form. We have three shifts. They work together for a long' time, and to say this, that they knew each other's footprints, is probably an overstatement. But they know each other's methods. Let me go back just one step further. I want to give it clear to you. Let's say the four or five stops that we had in Texas on this visit — we had one overnight in Fort Worth. All right. Each time, each stop that we make, the individual that we had sent out ahead to set up and coordinate the program with the people in that area, whether it is security or otherwise, through communications for the days he is away, he keeps us abreast of what is going on, who to expect, and so forth. And, again, I should say that in the morning of the 22nd in Fort Worth, this lad called me — Mr. Lawson — asked about the top, whether it should remain on or off, which decision was reached from Mr. O'Donnell. I then asked him — I said, "Are we going to be all right in Dallas?" He said, "Oh, yes; it is a good program." Fine. If and when we ever arrived at that spot, I would ask this man, is there anything unusual when we get here. That is a general question that I have given these people all the time. FORD. In other words, once the assignment has been made that you handle this trip, and in this case there was first a stop at El Paso, then at Houston — KELLERMAN. San Antonio. FORD. San Antonio; then Houston, Fort Worth. You stayed overnight at Fort Worth? KELLERMAN. Right. FORD. Then you proceeded to Dallas on the 22nd? KELLERMAN. Correct; yes, sir. FORD. As I understand it, when you arrived at San Antonio — the man that is in charge there, you immediately contacted. KELLERMAN. Yes, indeed. FORD. When you go to Houston, the same process? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. FORD. Fort Worth, the same? KELLERMAN. Fine. FORD. And when you got to Dallas, when you arrived there, whom did you see first? KELLERMAN. Mr. Lawson. FORD. And what did he tell you? KELLERMAN. He said, "Your program is all set. We have all the equipment and there should be no problem here." Fine. Let me go back to Fort Worth again. On that night we had an overnight. The gentleman we had working that stop had an added thing thrown into him, which was the speech before breakfast. The President spoke to a crowd across the main street in front of the hotel. After the President retired that night, he and I went down to that parking lot. I said, show me where this man is going to be, where the platform is going to be, where are you going to have all these folks, and how close are they going to be; show me. He did. You have got to keep abreast of these things, Mr. Congressman. Well, it is your job. FORD. Were all of these men that had charge of these various operations in San Antonio, Houston, Fort Worth, Dallas, men of experience? KELLERMAN. Very much; very much so. I want to give you a little information on how these people are selected for doing your advance work out of Washington. In the first place, when they are brought in, you instruct them on everything you do securitywise around the White House. You instruct them in range-work, follow-up car work, every little phase entailed. Then say you have a little movement in town — the President has a press conference, as an example. He doesn't do that. Send him with an older fellow. Even if he just walks around, learn it. Take him another place, a departure from an airport, or a theater. Give him four or five. Then give him one, give him a little departure at an airport, or a hotel. But have somebody with him. Then there is no mistake made. FORD. Now, when these men are assigned to handle the responsibilities in a particular city, such as Lawson in Dallas, is Lawson on the staff here or is he a man from Dallas with the Secret Service? KELLERMAN. These are all people we have in the White House detail, sir. FORD. In other words, Lawson was a White House detail man from Washington? KELLERMAN. Right, sir. He is one of the men off those three shifts. FORD. Now, when was your assignment made as the man in charge of this particular operation? KELLERMAN. Oh, I am going to say a week ahead, for lack of a better time — in fact, I knew that much of it. FORD. November KELLERMAN. Say the 17th, for a better day. FORD. On or before November 17th you got this assignment. KELLERMAN. Surely. I knew that I was making a trip, and none of the other two gentlemen were. FORD. What did you do after you got this assignment — what stops did you take? KELLERMAN. OK. The steps that I took — this entails work right here in Washington. First. to determine, to staff people in the White House, who is all going to make it, who are the passengers. This is a thing that those advance people out in the field do not know when they leave. You set up the time schedule — flight time — because the people on the other end want you there at 11:30 in the morning, you have to work back a flight time from Washington, or the helicopter time from the White House. All this is incorporated. Weatherwise — you will use an automobile. Allow a little more time. All right. From the people that are out in the field on those 4 or 5 different spots, they are the ones that coordinate with the local folks what program they would like, which is forwarded back, conferred with staff people, whether it is approved, disapproved, added, or cut out. And about the day before you leave. then it is all gelled. FORD. But this is your principal responsibility, to pull everything together. KELLERMAN. Right. FORD. Now, according to the various reports we have, when you know you are going to a particular city, or several cities, you have a method or a procedure to check to see if there are any individuals or organizations that present a serious threat to the President. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. We have what we call a Protective Research Section. This has been in existence for many years, through Roosevelt's days — I will go back that far. Through the combined efforts of various sources, through other agencies, they have a file on all the, let's say dangerous. for a better word, people that could be suspected in the city he arrives in. They will furnish the agents on those three shifts, if there are a number of them, or even one — it doesn't make any difference — all the data possible on that person — it will be given to each shift. It is a report form; can be read by all. And, if possible, there is a photograph included. That will be circulated around. FORD. Now, when you got your assignment on or about November 17, what did you do in this regard? KELLERMAN. One little thing I should say. Well, I am sorry. One of the first things we do, when a trip is planned, is make a call on that PRS Section and tell them, "On November 21 we are going to be in San Antonio, Houston, and Fort Worth. On the 22nd we will be in Dallas, Austin, and at the ranch." And they take it from there, sir. FORD. So, on or about November 22nd, you made this inquiry. KELLERMAN. This inquiry, sir, would be made a week ahead of time. FORD. A week ahead of the date that you were appointed? KELLERMAN. That's right. FORD. Who would make that inquiry? KELLERMAN. That would be made by any one of the three people — Mr. Behn, Mr. Boring, or myself, or one other person which I interrupted you a second ago. A departure is given to one man frown one of the shifts who would set up a departure from the White House to Andrews. He, too, in turn notifies our Protective Research Section of this thing. FORD. Well, do you know who in this case for this trip made that inquiry of the Protective Research Section? KELLERMAN. I don't have the name right now. FORD. Would there be a record of that made? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; yes, sir. FORD. I think we ought to have that for the record — the time it was made. You don't recall making it yourself, however. KELLERMAN. No. The CHAIRMAN. Do you know if it was actually done? KELLERMAN. It is always done, sir. The CHAIRMAN. I know. But do you know if it was done in this case? KELLERMAN. Not for a fact; no. FORD. But you must assume it was done. KELLERMAN. Very much. FORD. Were you given the information from this inquiry, even though you didn't make it yourself? KELLERMAN. What kind of information, sir? FORD. Well, about those people who are considered dangerous or a problem in any one of these four or five cities where the President was going on this trip. KELLERMAN. I will have to check this, but there was no record. FORD. In other words KELLERMAN. No information. FORD. In other words, PRS never turned over to you any information about any dangerous individuals in any one of these communities on this trip. KELLERMAN. That's right. FORD. Is this unusual? KELLERMAN. Yes. But let me reserve the right to recheck that question again; may I? FORD. Absolutely. All we want in this case, as in any other, are whatever the facts are to the best of records that are available. KELLERMAN. All right. FORD. In the report from the Secret Service it says, and I quote, "Because of the incidents on the occasion of the visit of Ambassador Stevenson to Dallas earlier in the fall, special attention was given to extremist groups known to be active in Dallas. Appendix A describes the action taken in Dallas in more detail." Were you familiar with that part of the Secret Service activity prior to your departure for Texas? KELLERMAN. I have knowledge of that; yes, sir. FORD. How much knowledge? KELLERMAN. But not enough to be written up, that I recall, sir. FORD. Well, could you describe for the Commission what knowledge you did have in this regard? KELLERMAN. The only knowledge I can describe to you, sir, is the fact that we were aware of what this Ambassador went through down there. However, we had no information that such an incident would happen to President Kennedy on his trip into that State. FORD. But I gather from this report, which is the official report of the Treasury Department, that somebody knew' of these previous incidents, and was thereby alerted to the possibility of — the potential of one, because the report says, "Special attention is given to extremist groups known to be in Dallas." Now, could you tell us what special attention was given? KELLERMAN. No. Outside of the fact that everybody was alerted to this previous incident FORD. Protective Research Section, didn't tell you, as the person in charge, of any individuals or of any groups that wanted special attention? I am using "special attention" as in the report KELLERMAN. Right as of this minute, the only knowledge that I have of any incident that could happen was in San Antonio, when I believe we had information of some pickets. Now, those pickets showed up outside of — he made a speech at that space hospital. Well, anyway, in view of that, I cannot reach the name right now — these pickets were out at, let's say, the main gate to the grounds, and just stayed right there with their placards. FORD. Also on the report it says, "In accordance with the usual practice, the local FBI office informed the local Secret Service office of any information which affected the President's visit." KELLERMAN. They did. That is the normal practice. FORD. That was the normal procedure? KELLERMAN. It is always the normal procedure; yes, sir. FORD. Now, whom would they have informed in this case in Dallas? KELLERMAN. Their report would have come to Washington, and relayed to our Protective Research Section. FORD. And the FBI in this instance gave you what information, if any, that you should relay back to the people — KELLERMAN. The only thing I can recall right now, sir, are those pickets in San Antonio. FORD. Well, may I say if on your return to your office you find any information on this particular point, I think it would be very helpful for the record, and it should be included in the record. KELLERMAN. All right I surely will. FORD. The report also says, "On October 30. 1963. the local FBI office gave the local Secret Service officer the name of a right-wing individual in the Dallas area. An investigation was made. On November 21 and 22 the local FBI office referred two pieces of information to the local Dallas office of the Secret Service." Were you familiar with that? KELLERMAN. No. FORD. Who would, under your normal procedures, have been familiar with that? KELLERMAN. It would be the same organization, Protective Research Section. FORD. But they did not give you any information of this. KELLERMAN. No. FORD. Is this unusual or different? KELLERMAN. If they evaluated this information, there would have to be a degree of seriousness. FORD. But, as far as you can best recollect at this point, you were never so informed. KELLERMAN. No, indeed. FORD. The report does go on to say, and I quote, "One involved scurrilous literature already in the hands of the Secret Service, Exhibit 4. The second involved possible picket trouble which the local police were aware of." That is the picket trouble you were talking about? KELLERMAN. Apparently so. FORD. The report also says on page 8. "Special Agent Lawson, SAIO Sorrel, and Special Agent Howlett met with Dallas law-enforcement officials. Special Agent Howlett also met with an informant. They followed up all leads and tips and checked scurrilous literature, Exhibit 4." Did you have any information personally about this activity by Lawson, Sorrel, and Howlett? KELLERMAN. No, sir. FORD. Was it their responsibility to do it, to undertake that kind of an operation? KELLERMAN. Everybody but Lawson. These other two gentlemen you are speaking of are field agents out of Dallas. Yes; they would investigate the seriousness of this thing, through the information furnished by the FBI. And, depending on the degree now, this would be furnished our Protective Research Section here in Washington. FORD. Now, did Lawson or anybody else communicate to you what was going on in this regard? KELLERMAN. No, no. I do not think Mr. Lawson got in this investigative part at all. It would not be any part of his duties. FORD. I am only reading from the report. KELLERMAN. Yes. FORD. And the report goes on to say, "Their investigations did not bring to light the name or the individual Lee H. Oswald, and he or his name was not known to them or any other Secret Service agent in Dallas or elsewhere prior to this shooting of the President." Would that be the same as far as you are concerned? KELLERMAN. That is very true. FORD. You did not know of Lee H. Oswald? KELLERMAN. None whatsoever. FORD. Was it surprising to you that when the President was going to a city as large as Dallas, that there were no names turned over to you, either by your Protective Research Section or by any other Federal agents — individuals or an individual dangerous to the President? KELLERMAN. I recall, to give you an answer, Congressman, that it did seem strange that here we are hitting five cities in one State and — and from the apparent trouble Ambassador Stevenson had down there one evening, we certainly should have had some information on somebody. FORD. Hypothetically, if you go to other large metropolitan areas, do you normally get names from various agencies, including PRS, warning you of an individual or groups that might cause trouble? KELLERMAN. Again I say that our PRS would recheck their files, from all the cities — from all the cases that they have in that city, and furnished us information, whether a report or photographwise. They in turn would — and I believe I am correct on this — they in turn notify the Bureau of this visit, or may have people check through their files. They can double check this stuff. I don't recall any information whatsoever, except that picket thing. FORD. It is surprising to me, as well, and I gather it was certainly, on reflection, surprising to you. KELLERMAN. Yes; it is. FORD. Was this in itself any warning to you that there might be some breakdown in the system? KELLERMAN. Gee — no; I never cherished that thought, sir. FORD. You assumed that the proper liaison between various agencies was taking place, and your PRS was operating effectively? KELLERMAN. Oh, yes; very much; yes indeed. Now, if I am wrong, when I check these two questions back here, I will let you know. SPECTER. Congressman Ford, on this line, perhaps I should say that organizationally we are divided into phases where this is a separate phase in terms of protective devices. So, for the prepared part of what the staff has set up, we have by design omitted that portion here, with later witnesses to go into all these questions in some detail for the Commission. FORD. I was trying to get from Mr. Kellerman — from his testimony he was indicating that he was the person who from on or about November 17 had the responsibility. And I was trying to trace precisely how this responsibility was carried through, up to the point where you started out this morning. Do I understand, then, that at some later point in the Commission hearings with other witnesses we will go back into the process of how these decisions are made, as far as PRS is concerned? SPECTER. Yes, sir. There will be detailed witnesses on the workings of PRS, and how they functioned with respect to this trip, and what information the FBI had or the State Department had about Lee Harvey Oswald, and whatever coordination, if any, was present. Our thought was that that would be handled separately, organizationally. Certainly, to some extent it is impossible to draw sharp lines of distinction here. But that is the way the staff has prepared the distinctions — with Mr. Kellerman going more specifically, as the other witnesses of today, on the sequence of events themselves at the assassination. FORD. But, as far as the procedures within PRS and the relationship between the Secret Service, the FBI, and other Federal agencies, that will come up later on in other witnesses who are more familiar with the precise workings. SPECTER. Exactly; yes, sir. FORD. Who actually had the responsibility to check the route from the airport to the Trade Mart? I mean to check the route, lay out whatever security precautions should be taken from the outset until the day of the President's visit? KELLERMAN. That was coordinated, Mr. Congressman, between Mr. Lawson and members of the Dallas Police Department, sir. FORD. You did not arrive in Dallas until the morning of the assassination? KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; that is correct, sir. FORD. As you were in the car, in the right front seat, and the car turned from Main Street right into Houston, you had for a relatively short period of time an opportunity to look at the Texas School Depository Building. Did you look at it; did you notice anything about it? What was your reaction, if any, to that particular building? KELLERMAN. Not knowing the name of the building — let me say this: When you are driving down this street, regardless of Houston or which, and you have buildings on either side of you, you are going to scan your eyes up and down this building. FORD. Did this building create, as you turned into Houston Street, any particular problem that would have alerted you one way or another? KELLERMAN. None whatsoever. It did not produce a thing. FORD. Your eyes scanned the area. Did they scan sufficiently to identify anything, to be alerted by anything in any window, on the roof, or anyplace else? KELLERMAN. No, sir. FORD. Did Mr. Lawson or anybody else indicate to you at any time that the Book Depository Building was a problem? KELLERMAN. No, sir. FORD. I mean beforehand. KELLERMAN. Never mentioned it. FORD. Did Mr. Lawson or anybody else discuss with you any particular danger involved in the overpass, the triple overpass? KELLERMAN. No, sir. FORD. Did you have minute knowledge as to the route in Dallas, or was that left up to Lawson in his judgment? KELLERMAN. Left up to Lawson and the people in Texas. FORD. But he did tell you when you arrived in Dallas; what, again? KELLERMAN. And the people in Texas, the police department. FORD. What did he tell you? When you arrived in Dallas that morning, he told you something. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. He said, "This is your reception committee, which is at the bottom of the ramp leading out." I said, "Are we all right in Dallas here all the way for today?" And he said, "Yes; this will be fine." I said, "All right; let's get on with it." FORD. When were you first interviewed by anyone regarding the directions from which the shots came? KELLERMAN. I don't recall ever being interviewed. FORD. Did you ever make a statement for submission to the Commission or to your supervisors? KELLERMAN. Just this statement that I submitted here. FORD. Which is included in the Secret Service report. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. FORD. Did you have anything to do with setting up the method of trying to apprehend the alleged assassin? Was that outside or within your jurisdiction? KELLERMAN. Outside, sir. FORD. You did nothing in that regard. KELLERMAN. Nothing. FORD. I believe that is all. I have to go back to a very important committee meeting, Mr. Chairman. I may be able to get back later. Mr. Chief Justice. The CHAIRMAN. I will be here the rest of the afternoon, so there will be no necessity of your coming back if you are tied up. Thank you very much for presiding all day. Mr Specter, have you some more questioning? SPECTER. I have just one or two other questions. Mr. Kellerman, you referred to a single statement which you said you had made. In the report of the U.S. Secret Service on the assassination of President Kennedy, on Exhibit 12, statement 11 — we have the first statement which you made, which is four pages, and that is the one to which you referred, to refresh your recollection earlier today, and I show you what appears to be a second very brief report which you made 1 day later under date of November 30, 1963, with your name and initials, and ask you if you made this one, also. KELLERMAN. That is right; yes, sir. SPECTER. All right. You referred to you and Mr. Boring being the two assistant special agents-in charge. Is that status the same at the present time, or are there now three assistant special agents in charge? KELLERMAN. There are three. Mr. Rufus Youngblood is the third one. SPECTER. Has that slight shift been made since the time of the assassination. KELLERMAN. That is correct. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, those are my only additional questions, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Craig, would you like to ask any questions, or do you think of any other avenue that we should explore here? CRAIG. No, sir; thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. As the interrogation has progressed, I have been handing notes to counsel and he has been very kind in asking those questions. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Murray, can you think of anything? MURRAY. No, thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. SMITH. Off the record. (Discussion off the record.) CRAIG. Mr. Kellerman, is there any special agent in charge of the protection of the person next in line in succession, to your knowledge? KELLERMAN. I think Mr. Rowley would like to man that. I think they have had a little difficulty to find a man. CRAIG. There is no such person now? KELLERMAN. No, they have made numerous attempts with the people, and so far they have got a negative reply. The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mr. Kellerman, thank you very much, sir, for your attendance and for your testimony. KELLERMAN. Thank you, sir. </DIVISION2><DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2>W. Greer - SA, JFK's driver</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM ROBERT GREER, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please. GREER. William Robert Greer. SPECTER. By whom are you employed, Mr. Greer? GREER. The Treasury Department, Secret Service Division of the Treasury Department. SPECTER. How old are you at the present time? GREER. Fifty-four years old. SPECTER. How long have you been with the Secret Service Department? GREER. I have been with the Secret Service Department since October 1, 1945. SPECTER. What is your educational background? GREER. I have just education in public schools in Ireland, really. SPECTER. And — GREER. I took courses here in this country. SPECTER. Are you a high school graduate, then? GREER. Well, I have 2 years of high school. SPECTER. And when did you complete this educational background? GREER. I have to go back now. SPECTER. Approximately. GREER. About 1924 or 1925. SPECTER. Would you outline in a general way what your activities have been since that time, up until your joining the Secret Service, please? GREER. Yes, sir. I was born and raised on farmwork, a farmer. And I done that until I came to this country in February 1930. I worked for a period of time — I lived in Boston for a little while. I worked one summer on the estate of Henry Cabot Lodge. I was a chauffeur for a family in Brookline, Mass., for about a year. And then I went to New York, Dobbs Ferry, N.Y. I lived there for 13 years as a chauffeur for a private family in Dobbs Ferry, N.Y. Then I went in the Navy in November 1942. I got discharged on September 18, 1945. SPECTER. What were your principal duties while in the Navy? GREER. I was seaman first class. I did almost 2 years at Bainbridge, Md, with the seaman guard there. And then I was assigned to the presidential yacht in May 1944, until I was discharged in September. But most of my duty was at the White House in that period, that year. SPECTER. And how long after discharge from the Navy was it before you joined the U.S. Secret Service? GREER. Well, I got out of the Navy September 18 and October 1. I went with the Secret Service — a matter of 14 or 15 days. SPECTER. Describe your duties since joining the Secret Service, please. GREER. Since joining the Secret Service I was assigned to the uniform force at first with the Secret Service at the Bureau of Engraving and Printing. For about 2 years I was with the physical education part of it. We had a gymnasium there. I was an instructor there part-time — part of the time. And then I was assigned for about 2 years to pick up the food of the President at the White House. I had that duty for about 2 years. And then I went back to the Treasury for a short period, a few months. And then I was reassigned to the White House as an agent in November — 1950 I went there. I was made a full agent that following August 1951. I was there as a special officer from November to August 1951. SPECTER. And have you been assigned to the White House staff since that time? GREER. Yes, sir; I have been there ever since. SPECTER. And while assigned at the White House staff, how much of your duty has involved driving the President's car? GREER. Well, I drove the follow-up car for quite a long time — you know, off and on. And then I drove the President at intervals during President Truman's and President Eisenhower's terms. I was also assigned a great many times to Mrs. Eisenhower. When she left Washington, I was always assigned to her, to travel with her. And I have been assigned to the President, to drive the President, since election day, with President Kennedy. I was the senior agent assigned to him, to drive him. SPECTER. How did you get to Dallas yourself back on November 22, 1963? GREER. I flew — I was on a plane with the President all during the trip. And I flew from Fort Worth to Dallas that morning. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, I hand you documents which have been marked Commission Exhibits 344, 345, and 346. I ask you if you can identify those, starting with 344, what that depicts. GREER. Yes, sir; I can identify this automobile very well. That is the 1961 Lincoln, especially built for the President. And this is a rear view of that same automobile. This is the interior of that Lincoln Continental. Yes, sir, everything is very positive that I can identify. SPECTER. How did that automobile — how was that automobile transported to Texas? GREER. It was flown there in a C-130. SPECTER. And do you know where it was flown to? GREER. Well, it was flown — let's see, I forget the day before where our first stop was on that trip right now. I would have to go back into my papers. But we used I believe more than one stop. I am trying to think where we used it before we went to Dallas. It could have been at Houston. I am not too sure whether we used it at Houston the day before or not. I would have to go back in my records. SPECTER. Is it possible the first time you used the automobile on that Texas trip was at Dallas? GREER. Right now it is so long ago, I have almost forgotten whether we did use it at Houston prior to that or not. I am not too sure where the first stop was. We sometimes use it more than one stop. SPECTER. Is there any covering which can be put on the President's automobile? GREER. There is — when we put the plastic — I put the plastic on it, we have a black canvass-type cover that buttons over the top of the plastic. SPECTER. Will you please describe in a general way the plastic covering you just referred to. GREER. The plastic covering is made in six pieces. Three of them — there are two corner pieces and a centerpiece on the back that we fasten together before we set it up onto the car. Then there is a front piece that goes across the front seat after that. Then the last pieces we put on are two that go in the center, and they meet together in the center — they come together in the center. That makes the six pieces that it comes down in. We have to break it down in the six pieces to store it in the trunk. It is kept in the trunk of the car whenever we are not using it. SPECTER. Are the three pieces that you described as being joined together for the rear portion disassembled at all times? GREER. We disassemble them to store them in the trunk, yes, sir. But we put them together on the floor, on the ground or something like that — we put the three pieces together, then we lift it up and set it in place, which covers the back seat of the car. SPECTER. And after you put the three pieces together for the back portion of the car, how many additional pieces are there for the balance of the car? GREER. Three; three more pieces. SPECTER. And how are they secured to the automobile itself? GREER. They are secured with — I don't know what you would call it — these fasteners, snaps, kind of snaps that snap on them. We have them made that way so that we can install them or take them apart very fast. SPECTER. Now, is this cover transparent? Can it be seen through? GREER. The plastic; yes. You can see through it. SPECTER. And what is the plastic made of, if you know? GREER. Well, it is a type of plastic. I just don't know who manufactures it. But it is clear plastic. SPECTER. Is it bulletproof or bullet resistant? GREER. No, sir. It is weather — the idea back of it was for inclement weather, that the President could be seen if the weather was too bad to have him outside. That is what we had in mind originally with it. SPECTER. Do you have any personal knowledge of any efforts made to obtain a bulletproof or bullet-resistant transparent top? GREER. Now, or before that? SPECTER. Well, start beforehand. GREER. No; I never had anything to do with that at all. I never had anything to do with anything being made for that. SPECTER. Do you know what efforts have been made subsequent to the assassination of President Kennedy to obtain such a bulletproof transparent top? GREER. Only just hearing conversation; nothing definite; no, sir. SPECTER. Approximately what time, to the best of your recollection, did President Kennedy arrive in Dallas on November 22? GREER. I would have to — I would not tell you right now. I would have to go back and look into my you probably have it there. I have it also on my report. SPECTER. If you don't recall the exact time, just give us your best estimate. GREER. Approximately 11:35. I am guessing. SPECTER. And what was his mode of transportation into Dallas? GREER. He flew on an Air Force plane. SPECTER. And where did he fly from? GREER. From Fort Worth to Dallas. SPECTER. Will you tell us in a general way what he did upon arrival in Dallas at Love Field? GREER. Yes, sir. He got off the plane. He walked along the fence along there, and shook hands with a great many people. There was a large crowd there. He and Mrs. Kennedy both walked along and shook hands with many people. SPECTER. Now, approximately how long after arrival at Love Field did he get into his automobile? GREER. I would guess probably, approximately maybe 10 minutes. SPECTER. What were the weather conditions like that day as he got into his automobile? GREER. The weather was very nice that day. It was a beautiful day in Dallas, very fine day, warm, fairly warm. nice day. SPECTER. Was the car open? GREER. The car was open; no top. SPECTER. Approximately how many automobiles were there in that motorcade? GREER. I wouldn't have — couldn't tell you right now how many. There was quite a few cars. SPECTER. Who were the occupants of the President's car? GREER. On the back seat, on the right rear seat, the President, Mrs. Kennedy on the left rear seat, Governor Connally was on the right jump seat, and Mrs. Connally was on the left jump seat. Mr. Kellerman was riding on the right front, and I was driving. SPECTER. At what speed did you travel as you proceeded at various points from Love Field, say, down into the downtown area of Dallas? GREER. Well, we traveled at various speeds, according to the amount of, people, the crowd. If it was — if we came to a large crowd, we would have to slow down, I would say, to probably 10 to 15 miles an hour. Then we would pick it up possibly 25 or somewhere around — 25 maybe to 30, where there was few people. SPECTER. What was the maximum speed at which you drove from the time you left Love Field until the time you got to downtown Dallas? GREER. I wouldn't have the slightest idea now, after this length of time. I could not say how much it would be. SPECTER. Can you give us your best estimate on the minimum speed from the time you left Love Field until the time you arrived at downtown Dallas? GREER. The minimum speed traveling at all would probably be 10 to 15 miles an hour. SPECTER. And what sort of crowds were along the way? GREER. There was large crowds — at some places there was quite large crowds. SPECTER. Did anything unusual occur en route from Love Field to the downtown area of Dallas? GREER. Well, I think — it may have been — we may have stopped one time where he got out. I didn't get out, but he stopped and spoke to some young people, I believe en route. I think there may have been a group of people there. SPECTER. I hand you a photograph which has already been marked Commission Exhibit No. 347 and ask you if at this time you are able to identify what that photograph depicts. GREER. Yes, sir. That is the photograph of the route that we traveled in Dallas. SPECTER. I show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 348 and ask you if you can identify what that picture represents. GREER. With pictures that I have seen since then, I would recognize that as the Book Depository Building in Dallas — the street in front of it. SPECTER. Are you familiar with the name of this street. which has since been marked by Mr. Kellerman, who identified this exhibit and marked the name of the street on it? GREER. No, I wasn't at the time, but I know now that it is supposed to be Main Street. SPECTER. And do you know in what general direction Main Street proceeds? GREER. I am not too sure. No; I wouldn't really know. I didn't have enough time. SPECTER. And are you familiar with the street which intersects with Main GREER. Houston Street. SPECTER. And what street did you turn off of from Houston? GREER. Houston to Elm Street. SPECTER. Now. as you were proceeding down Main Street, which I will add is in a generally westerly direction, what is your best estimate of your speed as you turned the corner right onto Houston Street? GREER. I would estimate the speed was somewhere between 12 to 15 miles per hour, coming through there. SPECTER. And as you made that right-hand turn onto Houston Street, what was the composition of the crowds along the way, if any? GREER. On Main Street there were very, very large crowds. They were almost close up against the automobile. Sometimes the motorcycles on the sides could not even get through. They were real close to us. And very large crowds. And when we got around on Houston Street, the crowds thinned out quite a lot. My recollection here is that there wasn't too many people on Elm Street — a few scattered people at that point. SPECTER. And your finger indicated there the position near the Texas School Depository Building? GREER. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Now, you have described motorcycles. How many were present with the President's automobile if any? GREER. I could not tell the exact amount of motorcycles that were escorting us at that time. We usually do have them on the two front fenders and two rear fenders, and some probably preceding that, and some along the motorcade behind us. I could not tell you exactly how many there probably would be. SPECTER. Do you recollect that there were some on this occasion, however? GREER. Yes, sir; there were motorcycles. SPECTER. Now, do you know how many cars back your car was in the motorcade? GREER. No; I don't know how many police cars were ahead of us. I knew that the lead car was right directly ahead of me, with one of our agents, or maybe two, and the chief of police in that car. But how many police cars prior to that, I do not know how many there were at the time in front of us. SPECTER. How far ahead of you was that police car as you turned off of Main Street onto Houston? GREER. I usually allow 4 or 5 car lengths, if possible, between the car and myself, in case that there is any reason to speed up quick. I like to leave enough room that I can get out of them. I don't like to get too tight to the lead car when possible — unless the crowds are so big that I have to get in or they would close in on me — I have to get in closer. SPECTER. Do you know how far behind you the first car immediately behind yours was? GREER. The car behind me was only some few feet, because with our training and all, we stay very, very close to the President's car. Sometimes we are, bumper to bumper. And the car never is much more than 10 to 12 feet away from the President's car, at slow speeds. SPECTER. Did you endeavor to maintain a constant speed in the operation of the President's car so as to avoid contact with this close gap between the President's car and the President's follow-up automobile? GREER. Yes, sir. We tried to drive at a very steady speed. We are used to driving with each other, and we almost can tell each others thoughts what we do, because of the training we have had, and we work so long together. We drive at a steady pace of speed, so that we give each other enough ample time to stop or move in close. SPECTER. After turning off Main onto Houston, did you have any opportunity to take a look at the building which you have since identified as the Texas School Book Depository Building? GREER. No, sir. I had not any chance to look much at that building at all. When I made the turn into Elm Street, I was watching the overpass expressway — the overpass, or what was ahead of me. I always look at any — where I go underneath anything, I always watch above, so if there is anyone up there that I can move so that I won't go over the top of anyone, if they are unidentified to me, unless it is a policeman or something like that. We try to avoid going under them. SPECTER. Now, when you turned off of Houston onto Elm, did you make a right-hand or a left-hand turn? GREER. I made a right-hand turn off of Main onto Houston. SPECTER. And when you turned from Houston onto Elm, was that a right-hand or a left-hand turn? GREER. That was a left-hand turn. SPECTER. And as you turned onto Elm Street, how far, to the best of your ability to estimate, was your automobile from the overpass which you have just described? GREER. I wouldn't have a distance recollection at all on how far it was. It wasn't too far. I just could not give you the distance. SPECTER. At that time, did you make a conscious effort to observe what was present, if anything, on that overpass? GREER. Yes, sir. I was making sure that I could not see anyone that might be standing there, and I didn't see anything that I was afraid of on the overpass. SPECTER. Did you see anything at all on the overpass? GREER. Not that I can now remember. SPECTER. What is your best recollection of the speed at which you were traveling as you turned left off of Houston onto Elm? GREER. My best recollection would be between 12 and 15 miles per hour. SPECTER. And how far were you at that time behind the police car which was in front of you? GREER. Probably 50 feet maybe — approximately. I will say approximately 50 feet. SPECTER. As you turned onto Elm, did you have any opportunity to serve how far behind you the President's follow-up car was? GREER. No, sir. I was not looking in my mirror; I could not say how far it was behind me at the time. SPECTER. And what was the nature of the crowd as you made the turn onto Elm Street, if you recall? GREER. To the best of my memory, the crowd had thinned out a great deal, and there was not too many people in front of that building. SPECTER. How many lanes of travel were there on Elm Street? GREER. It was either three or four lanes wide. I have forgotten. SPECTER. In what portion of the street were you traveling? GREER. I was right in the center of the street. SPECTER. Would you describe for us the contour of the street at that point — whether it was level, hilly, or what, GREER. It was starting to go down — gradually going down toward this underpass. It was a down grade. SPECTER. Now, would you tell us just what occurred as you were proceeding down Elm Street at that time? GREER. Well, when we were going down Elm Street, I heard a noise that I thought was a backfire of one of the motorcycle policemen. And I didn't — it did not affect me like anything else. I just thought that it is what it was. We had had so many motorcycles around us. So I heard this noise. And I thought that is what it was. And then I heard it again. And I glanced over my shoulder. And I saw Governor Connally like he was starting to fall. Then I realized there was something wrong. I tramped on the accelerator, and at the same time Mr. Kellerman said to me, "Get out of here fast." And I cannot remember even the other shots or noises that was. I cannot quite remember any more. I did not see anything happen behind me any more, because I was occupied with getting away. SPECTER. Now, how many shots, or how many noises have you just described that you heard? GREER. I know there was three that I heard — three. But I cannot remember any more than probably three. I know there was three anyway that I heard. SPECTER. Do you have an independent recollection at this moment of having heard three shots at that time? GREER. I knew that after I heard the second one, that is when I looked over my shoulder, and I was conscious that there was something wrong, because that is when I saw Governor Connally. And when I turned around again, to the best of my recollection there was another one, right immediately after. SPECTER. To the best of your ability to recollect and estimate, how much time elapsed from the first noise which you have described as being similar to the backfire of a motor vehicle until you heard the second noise? GREER. It seems a matter of seconds, I really couldn't say. Three or four seconds. SPECTER. How much time elapsed, to the best of your ability to estimate and recollect, between the time of the second noise and the time of the third noise? GREER. The last two seemed to be just simultaneously, one behind the other, but I don't recollect just how much, how many seconds were between the two. I couldn't really say. SPECTER. Describe as best you can the types of sound of the second report, as distinguished from the first noise which you said was similar to a motorcycle backfire? GREER. The second one didn't sound any different much than the first one but I kind of got, by turning around, I don't know whether I got a little concussion of it, maybe when it hit something or not, I may have gotten a little concussion that made me think there was something different to it. But so far as the noise is concerned, I haven't got any memory of any difference in them at all. SPECTER. Describe as best you can the sound of the third noise. GREER. Just, to me it was similar, to the first two. They all sounded practically the same to me. SPECTER. You testified that at the second noise you glanced over your shoulder. GREER. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Which shoulder did you glance over? GREER. Right shoulder. SPECTER. And describe or indicate how far you turned your head to the right at that time? GREER. Just so that my eyes over, caught the Governor, I could see, I couldn't see the President. I just could see the Governor. I made a quick glance and back again. SPECTER. Was the movement of your head just then approximately the same? GREER. Yes, sir. SPECTER. As the time? GREER. Yes, sir. SPECTER. You just indicated the turn of your head slightly to the right. GREER. My eyes slightly more than my head. My eyes went more than my head around. I had vision real quick of it. SPECTER. Exactly where was Governor Connally when you first caught him out of the corner of your eye? GREER. He was — he seemed to be falling a little bit toward Mrs. Connally, to the left. He started to go over a little bit to the left. SPECTER. And how far did you catch his movement during the time you were able to observe him? GREER. Just a second. He probably hadn't gotten his shoulder, he hadn't fell down or anything. He probably was in a position such as I am now. SPECTER. Did he fall to the rear or to the side or how? GREER. In my opinion, he fell toward Mrs. Connally which would be to his left or to his side. SPECTER. Did he fall then on his left shoulder and arm or in some other way? GREER. He appeared to me to be falling on his left shoulder when glanced. He had only started to move that way whenever he — when I saw him. SPECTER. Were you able to see anything of President Kennedy as you glanced to the rear? GREER. No, sir; I didn't see anything of the President. I didn't look, I wasn't far enough around to see the President. SPECTER. When you stared that glance, are you able to recollect whether you started to glance before, exactly simultaneously with or after that second shot? GREER. It was almost simultaneously that he had — something had hit, you know, when I had seen him. It seemed like in the same second almost that something had hit, you know, whenever I turned around. I saw him start to fall. SPECTER. Did you step on the accelerator before, simultaneously or after Mr. Kellerman instructed you to accelerate? GREER. It was about simultaneously. SPECTER. So that it was your reaction to accelerate prior to the time. GREER. Yes, sir. SPECTER. You had gotten that instruction? GREER. Yes, sir; it was my reaction that caused me to accelerate. SPECTER. Do you recollect whether you accelerated before or at the same time or after the third shot? GREER. I couldn't really say. Just as soon as I turned my head back from the second shot, right away I accelerated right then. It was a matter of my reflexes to the accelerator. SPECTER. Was it at about that time that you heard the third shot? GREER. Yes, sir; just as soon as I turned my head. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the speed of the car at the time of the first, second, or third shots? GREER. I would estimate my speed was between 12 and 15 miles per hour. SPECTER. At the time all of the shots occurred? GREER. At the time the shots occurred. SPECTER. Now what, if anything, was Mr. Kellerman doing at the time of the first shot? GREER. I couldn't really speak for where he was watching, what part of the street or the buildings or what he was watching at that time. I don't really know. SPECTER. Do you know what Mr. Kellerman was doing at the time of the second shot? GREER. He was sitting there in the front. No, sir; I don't know what his action was then. I was watching the overpass, I wasn't looking his way. SPECTER. When you were watching the overpass at that time, did you observe anything on the overpass? GREER. Not that I can remember now. SPECTER. Did you observe that there was no one present on the overpass? GREER. My recollection, there may have been a police officer up there. It is vague to me now everything that I had seen at that time. SPECTER. Do you know what Mr. Kellerman was doing at the time of the third shot? GREER. No, sir; I couldn't say what he was doing. SPECTER. Was there any radio communication between your automobile and any of the other automobiles? GREER. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Who made that radio communication? GREER. Kellerman. SPECTER. Tell us as precisely as you can when he made that radio communication. GREER. After he had said to me, "Get out of here fast." He got the radio and called to the lead car, "Get us to a hospital fast, nearest hospital fast." SPECTER. Do you recall whether he said anything else at that time? GREER. After he had said to me, he said, "12:30," and that is all I remember him saying to me was 12:30, and he had communications with the cars but I don't remember what be had said to them. SPECTER. Did he say just "12:30," or was it 12:30 used in a sentence? GREER. He said "12:30." He looked at his watch, he said "12:30," and we were in the underpass at the time. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, would you on Commission's Exhibit 347, mark with an "A" as best you can indicate the position of the President's automobile at the time of the first shot? GREER. Do you want me to mark it on this exhibit? SPECTER. Right there, that is right, that red pencil with an "A," a small "A." GREER. This is the center, I would say [indicating]. SPECTER. Will you mark your best estimate as to the position of the automobile at the time of the second shot with the letter "B"? GREER. I would have to guess how far I had traveled at that time. I really wouldn't know. It was probably a little farther, only guessing how far I would go. I am guessing as to the distance between them. Maybe farther but I am only guessing to say at that. I wouldn't have any definite reason. SPECTER. Would you make that "B" a little plainer, if you can? GREER. Yes. SPECTER. Could you give us the best estimate in feet as to the distance you traveled from the time of the first shot to the time of the second shot? GREER. No, sir; I don't believe I could. Anything I would say would be guessing. SPECTER. Would you he able to give us a meaningful mark on the overhead photograph as to the position of your car at the time of the third shot? GREER. From this overhead. I probably was where this mark is here. SPECTER. Would you mark it? GREER. I will put it alongside. SPECTER. Put a little "C." GREER. This was for the third shot. SPECTER. Yes, sir. GREER. This is "C." This not having an idea really of how much footage is in there at all. I wouldn't — The CHAIRMAN. I didn't understand. GREER. I said I wouldn't probably know, Mr. Chief Justice, how many feet would be in that distance, I would be guessing how many feet. The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I understand. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe the overhead as you were driving along after the last shot occurred? GREER. No, sir. I was fairly close to it, to the best of my memory, and I was trying to watch then where I was going. I had to look ahead to see, I was catching up on the lead car real fast, and I had to watch what was ahead of me. SPECTER. How fast was it possible to accelerate your automobile at that time? GREER. Well, it is a very heavy automobile, and it does not pick up too fast on account of the weight. I have never tested to see how many feet I could travel in a second. I have never had any reason to test it to see how much I could travel. But it was in low gear at that time, and that helps you to accelerate a lot faster. SPECTER. Would you characterize it as a very rapid or a rapid acceleration? GREER. No. SPECTER. Or how would you characterize it? GREER. It is a very smooth car taking off anyway, and I would say it wasn't rapid. It is fairly fast in low gear but not rapid like a light car will be. SPECTER. Does that car have an automatic transmission? GREER. Yes, sir. SPECTER. And what are the varieties of forward speeds in the vehicle? GREER. It has a low gear and then it has drive one and drive two. It has two top gears. One has, one probably has, free wheeling more than the other. The other is not a free wheeling gear. SPECTER. How fast can the car be driven in the low gear? GREER. I would say safely you can drive it up to 40 miles an hour in low gear. That is estimating it at 40. SPECTER. From the time of the first shot until the time of the third shot, was your car moving in a straight line or in an arc or how would you describe it? GREER. I was following the contour of the road, the center of the contour of the road as it goes. SPECTER. What is the path of the contour of the road? GREER. Well, at the time I didn't think much of it but it is a little, there is a little bend in the road going to the underpass. SPECTER. Did you hear anyone in the car say anything from the time of the first shot until the time of the third shot? GREER. Not to the best of my recollection, I don't remember. (At this point, Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.) (Discussion off the record.) SPECTER. Mr. Greer, did you hear anyone say anything from the time of the third shot until the time of arrival at Parkland Hospital? GREER. No, sir; I didn't. I didn't hear, I can't remember hearing anyone say anything at all. We were quite preoccupied to get to the hospital as fast as we can, as we could, and that was my mind was really occupied on what I was doing. I didn't hear anything. SPECTER. Do you know what speed you were traveling at en route to the hospital? GREER. No, sir; I couldn't say. I was just getting through the traffic and through the streets as fast as I could get through. SPECTER. Would you have any estimate at all on speed? GREER. I would estimate that I must have been doing 40 or 50, at least 50 miles an hour at times. We might have been going as fast as 50 miles an hour, I am sure. SPECTER. When you accelerated your automobile, did you at any time come alongside of or pass the police car in front of you? GREER. No, sir; I never passed it. I came up alongside one or two motorcycle men and I called to them "get to a hospital fast." You know, I called to them "hospital." SPECTER. Were you led to the hospital? GREER. Yes, sir; I was led to the hospital by the police car who was preceding me. SPECTER. Did you have any independent knowledge of the route from where you were? GREER. No, sir. SPECTER. From the point of assassination to the hospital? GREER. No, sir; I didn't. SPECTER. Were you escorted by any other automobiles besides the police car in front of you? GREER. We had motorcycles and I don't know if there were other police cars out in front of that or not. I am sure there may have been, but I couldn't say right now. SPECTER. Was there any radio communication between your automobile and the hospital at any time prior to your arrival at the hospital? GREER. No, sir; not between the hospital and our car. SPECTER. Did Mr. Kellerman have any radio contact at all with anyone in addition to that which you have already described? GREER. He may have had some more communications to the car, the lead car, but I can't remember what they were now. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullets strike any portion of the car or ricochet in any way during the course of the shooting? GREER. No, sir; I did not. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullets or fragments of bullets at rest in the car after the shooting terminated? GREER. No, sir; I didn't. I left the car at the hospital and I didn't see it any more until the next day. SPECTER. I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 349, Mr. Greer, and ask if you are able to identify what that picture represents? GREER. That represents the windshield of the car. SPECTER. Of the President's car? GREER. Yes, sir; it looks like the windshield of the President's car. SPECTER. Now calling your attention to a small arrow GREER. Arrow. SPECTER. Which points up on what appears to be an indentation, I ask you if you — when was the first time, if at all, that you observed that indentation? GREER. I didn't observe that. SPECTER. On the car? GREER. Until after I got back to Washington, until the car came back to Washington, I saw it at the White House garage. It was the first time I had ever noticed that. SPECTER. On what date did you observe that indentation on the car? GREER. That was the day after, the 23, would be it. It would be the day after the shooting. We got back from Dallas. SPECTER. And what time of the day did you observe the car at the White House garage on that date? GREER. It was in the afternoon, I believe. I believe it was in the afternoon, I believe. SPECTER. Did anyone call that indentation to your attention at that time? GREER. Yes; I was asked if I knew about it. SPECTER. Who was it who asked you? GREER. I can't remember now who did say that, but I was shown that indentation at the same time I was the break in the glass. I was shown both and asked if I had known but I can't remember who might have asked me. SPECTER. Had you ever observed that indentation before the assassination occurred? GREER. No, sir. I had never noticed it before at any time. I had never seen it before. SPECTER. Had you ever had any occasion to examine closely that metallic area to ascertain whether or not there was such an indentation prior to the assassination? GREER. Well, it seems to me I would have prior to that had it been there because I do take care of the car sometimes, and it had never been — I had never noticed it at any previous time. SPECTER. I hand you Commission Exhibit 350 and ask you if you are able to state what that depicts? GREER. That depicts a break or a shatter in the windshield of it. SPECTER. Does that picture accurately represent the status of the windshield on the President's car at sometime? GREER. Yes, sir; that windshield looks real familiar to me. On the way it — SPECTER. At what time, based on your observation, did the windshield of the President's car look like that picture? GREER. I had never seen that until the following day after it came back from Dallas. SPECTER. But on November 23, did the President's car windshield look like that? GREER. Yes, sir; it looked like there was a break that had a diamond, in the windshield whenever I was shown that at the garage, the White House garage. SPECTER. Was the size and scope of the crack the same as that which is shown on that exhibit? GREER. That I wouldn't remember whether it was quite that large or not, I don't believe it was that big. It might not have been but I wouldn't say for sure. SPECTER. Did you observe any crack on the windshield after the time of the shooting on November GREER. No, sir; I didn't see it at all. I didn't know anything about it until I came back, until the car came back and I was shown that. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion on November 22, after the shooting, to observe closely the windshield? GREER. No, sir. The only time I was in the car was going to the hospital and I never — I didn't see the car any more. It was just from the shooting until we got to Parkland that I was with the car. I left the car there and never did see it until it was back at the White House garage. SPECTER. Are you able to state with certainty there was no crack in that windshield prior to the shooting on November 22? GREER. Yes, sir; I am sure there was nothing wrong with that windshield prior to that because I would have — it was almost in front of me and I examined the car, I looked it all over when I got there, I saw it was clean and everything, the windshield. I didn't see this ever at any time previous. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, I now call your attention to a windshield which has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 351, and I will ask you to take a look at it and identify it for us, if you can, calling your attention first of all to the windshield itself. Are you able to state — GREER. Yes, sir; this is the windshield that came out of the Lincoln. SPECTER. That you were operating on the day of the assassination? GREER. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Can you describe what cracks, if any, which you see now on that windshield were present? GREER. When I looked SPECTER. When you observed the automobile windshield on November 23, the next day? GREER. This little star, the star in here with the little star. These cracks were not there. SPECTER. Now by these cracks you are indicating GREER. These. SPECTER. The long cracks which radiate off from the center? GREER. That is right. This was the only cracks that I could see was this star-type fragment. SPECTER. There you are indicating what would be described as the principal point of contact which was present when you observed it on November 23? GREER. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Give me your best estimate on the diameter of the cracking of the windshield as it existed on November 23? GREER. To the best of my estimate it would be these little stars that are here, the little shatters that are here. SPECTER. Would it be fair to say that you are indicating a circle with a circumference or diameter of approximately an inch to an inch and a half? GREER. I don't think — it probably would be an inch. The whole diameter. SPECTER. Approximately 1 inch as you estimate it? GREER. Yes, sir. BOGGS. Excuse me, did you say you did not notice this crack from the time that you drove the car after the shooting to the hospital? GREER. No, sir; I had flags on the car and you know they were waving at a high rate of speed and you have the Presidential flag and the American flag in front of you there; you know when you are going at a fast speed you get a lot of, well, I don't know how you would say it, it attracts you so much that I didn't have any recollection of what happened on the windshield. BOGGS. There was no glass or anything that spattered on you in any way? GREER. No, sir; I didn't feel anything at all. I didn't feel a thing hit me. I was kind of shocked at the time, I guess anything could have and I wouldn't have known what hit me. You are tense, I was pretty tense, and naturally my thoughts were the hospital, and how fast I could get there, and probably I could have been injured and not even known I was injured. I was in that position. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, what is your best estimate and recollection of the time that the shooting occurred? GREER. Well, Mr. Kellerman saying 12:30 to me makes me — that stays in my mind foremost, and that was when we had just left the scene of the shooting, a few seconds or a second or two from it. That is why that 12:30 stays in my mind, him saying 12:30 to me right after the shooting, he said. His watch may not have been correct but that is what he said to me at the time. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance between the point where the assassination occurred and Parkland Hospital? GREER. No, sir; I haven't. It seemed like endless miles and probably wasn't very far, but it seemed like to me it was endless getting there. I was — SPECTER. Are you able to give us an estimate with reasonable accuracy on the time it took? GREER. No, sir. SPECTER. From the time it took from the point of the shooting until you arrived at Parkland Hospital? GREER. I didn't check anything but I thought that probably it would probably be 6 or 8 minutes, I am not too sure, somewhere in the vicinity of 5 and 10 minutes. I would have to guess at that. SPECTER. How did you know which entrance of the hospital to go to? GREER. I followed the car that was in front of me right to where he stopped and I was right, at the entrance. The car stopped and I stopped along side of him. SPECTER. Which entrance was that? GREER. It seems, I think it was the emergency entrance, I am almost sure. It was like a bay that you could pull in and out of. It looked like an ambulance entrance. SPECTER. What did you observe with respect to President Kennedy's condition on arrival at the Parkland Hospital? GREER. To the best of my knowledge he was laying, it seemed across Mrs. Kennedy, looked like laying across her lap or in front of her, I am not too sure which, I opened the doors — the doors were opened before I got to it, someone else had opened the doors and they were trying to get Connally out, and Mrs. Connally out of the seats so they could get to the President. SPECTER. What did you observe about the President with respect to his wounds? GREER. His head was all shot, this whole part was all a matter of blood like he had been hit. SPECTER. Indicating the top and right rear side of the head? GREER. Yes, sir; it looked like that was all blown off. SPECTER. Yes. GREER. I run around the front of the car and got hold of a stretcher or thing and I got hold of it to keep it steady while they lifted the President's body onto it and then I helped pull the front end of it into the emergency room. SPECTER. Who was first removed from the automobile? GREER. Governor Connally was first removed. He was on the jump seats. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did you observe as to Governor Connally's condition on arrival at Parkland Hospital? GREER. The best of my recollection he was lying across the seat toward Mrs. Connally when they picked him up and got him out of the car. And he was rushed in first into the hospital. That is when I got the stretcher to bring it, to hold it until they would get the President on it, on the right side of the car. They took him out on the side he was sitting on, that side of the car. SPECTER. Were you able to make any personal observation about Governor Connally's specific wound? GREER. No, sir. I didn't know how badly anyone really was injured. I had great thoughts the President was still living and that was the only thing I was thinking about was to get them in quick. SPECTER. Did you observe anything specific which led you to the conclusion that the President was still living? GREER. No, sir. When he was in the emergency room and I was there, I did see his chest expand and move, the movement of the chest a time or so. SPECTER. Were you able to observe any wound on the front side of the President? GREER. No, sir; I didn't, I never seen any on the front side of the President. The only thing I saw was on the head. I didn't know at the time of any other injuries on him. SPECTER. As to the front side of the President's body, were you able to observe any hole or tear in either his shirt or tie? GREER. No, sir; I didn't and I brought them back, those things, and I didn't see them at the time. I probably didn't inspect them very closely but they were handed to me in a paper bag to bring back. SPECTER. When did you acquire custody and possession of those items of clothing? GREER. After they had made the President's body ready for removal, I was in the emergency room, and a nurse got two shopping bags and I held them and she put the President's suit, his belongings into the two bags including his shoes and socks, and his pants and jacket which they had torn and the shirt they had torn, they had torn it to take it off him, and the nurse put these into the two bags and I got custody of them right then from the nurse at the emergency room. SPECTER. Were there any other items of wearing apparel such as shorts or undershirt? GREER. Yes, sir; his shorts and that brace he wore, whatever it was, and his sox and shoes, and shirt, and his trousers, and his suit coat. SPECTER. Are you able to state with certainty that there was no undershirt? GREER. Yes, sir; there was no undershirt. I am sure there was no undershirt. I would have to say it to the best of my recollection, there was no undershirt. I had been with him so many times and I knew he didn't normally wear an undershirt because I had heard him one time previously, I offered him a coat. He said, "I have an undershirt on today," it was at some ball game. He normally didn't wear an undershirt. SPECTER. Can you describe with more particularity the brace you just said he was wearing? GREER. It looked like a, I would say, a corset-type brace, maybe 6 inches wide, he wore it around his, down low around his, haunches, a little lower than the waist, probably, just probably below his belt he wore it there. It was something he normally wore, and I would guess, but I would say it was of a soft, maybe a kind of corset-type material, maybe elastic or something like that support. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, when your automobile arrived at Parkland, was there any medical individual awaiting your arrival? GREER. I can't remember — there were — who brought the stretchers out. There were some hospital people there, but who they were, I never got — I couldn't identify or knew who they were. There were some medical people there; yes. SPECTER. Where were they when you first saw hospital personnel? GREER. When I pulled into the ambulance entrance there were same people there on the right-hand side with these stretchers that they had rushed out, I don't know just who they were from the hospital staff. There was a great deal of confusion because everyone was trying to help, the agents were there. SPECTER. Are you able to state whether there was a doctor in attendance at that time? GREER. No, sir; I couldn't state that. SPECTER. What did you do after your arrival at Parkland Hospital? GREER. I helped pull it, take the stretcher into the emergency room that he was on. It is on wheels, and I helped to take that in, and I stayed inside the door of the emergency room most of the time while they were, the doctors were, working on the President's body. SPECTER. How many doctors were working on him in the emergency room? GREER. There were, between nurses and doctors, I would estimate there were, between 10 or 12 people, maybe not that many, 8 to 10 people in and out of that room. I don't know how many of them were doctors, attendants, nurses, and things like that with white jackets and they would come in and say, "I am doctor so-and-so." SPECTER. How long were they working on him there in the emergency room? GREER. I couldn't remember the time. SPECTER. You say you were with him most of the time? GREER. I was inside the door. I know, I kept the door closed most of the time, let doctors and nurses in and out while he was — while they were working on him. I stayed inside the emergency room door. SPECTER. Was there any special reason for you to leave part of the time? GREER. No, sir; I didn't go any farther away than outside the door. SPECTER. Were there any other Secret Service agents inside the emergency room at that time? GREER. Not at that time; I was inside the door. SPECTER. Where was Mrs. Kennedy at this time? GREER. Mrs. Kennedy was outside the door. They got her a chair out there for a little while and then she insisted on coming in and she got in the corner for a little while there and stayed there a little while and I don't quite remember the time she went over to his body but she did go over there, and I don't remember how far along the doctors had been on him when that happened. SPECTER. Were you able to overhear any of the conversations among the doctors in the emergency room? GREER. I don't understand anything that they were discussing at all. SPECTER. Did a priest or more than one priest come upon the scene? GREER. I believe there were two. To the best of my recollection there eventually was two. SPECTER. How long after President Kennedy arrived at the emergency room did the priest arrive, if you recollect? GREER. No. sir; I wouldn't have any idea, it seemed to me it was quite a little while in the matter, probably minutes. SPECTER. Approximately how long did the priests stay? GREER. I don't remember that, sir. SPECTER. Did they say anything on leaving or in entering? GREER. Not that I heard of personally. I was outside the room when the priest was in there. I wasn't in the emergency room while he was in. SPECTER. When did you find that the President had died? GREER. When the priest was in to give him the last rites then I knew that. SPECTER. Do you have any reasonably close estimate on when the President did die? GREER. No, sir; I haven't right off. I would have to look at some reports. SPECTER. What did you do after the President was pronounced dead? GREER. We stayed there until everything was settled up. I believe there was a judge came in there and I think, someone came in and made the decisions on removing the body and the casket was brought in, and the body was put in the casket. I had this, his clothing, I kept it in my hand at all times, all the time. Then I went, when they removed the casket from the emergency room, I was in front of it going out to make a path to get it to the ambulance. So, I helped get it into the ambulance and then I drove a car with some agents and some people right behind the ambulance to Love Field back to the airport again and helped to get the casket aboard the airplane. SPECTER. Were you present at the swearing in of President Johnson? GREER. Yes, sir; I was — we were all asked to come back into the state room but I wasn't in too close. I was in the main part of the plane, as close as I could get to it, yes. SPECTER. How did you personally return to Washington, D.C.? GREER. I returned on Air Force 1 with the President's remains. SPECTER. And at approximately what time did you leave Dallas to fly back? GREER. I would have to look in my reports to say exactly. I would have to go back on the times. Two something but I don't remember. SPECTER. Do you have any idea of the time you arrived in the Washington area? GREER. I believe it was 6 or 6:15. As I say I have it in my reports but I haven't looked at the times recently. SPECTER. Where did you arrive in the Washington area? GREER. At Andrews Air Force Base. SPECTER. What did you do next in connection with this matter? GREER. I helped to get the casket out of the plane, and put it into a Navy ambulance and then I drove that Navy ambulance to Bethesda Naval Center. SPECTER. What did you do upon arriving at the Bethesda Naval Center? GREER. I stayed in, while the autopsy was being performed, I stayed in the autopsy room with Mr. Kellerman and the doctors and the people who were in there. I stayed in there and observed what was necessary that I could do. SPECTER. Were any Secret Service Agents present besides you and Mr. Kellerman? GREER. No, sir. SPECTER. At the autopsy? GREER. There may have been, Mr. Hill may have come in and out but he didn't stay there. Mr. Kellerman and I stayed permanently the whole time there. There may have been, Mr. Hill may have come in there and have gone back out but he didn't stay in there. SPECTER. During the course of the autopsy did you hear any doctor say anything about the wound on the right side of Mr. Kennedy's back? GREER. That was the first time that I had ever seen it, when the doctors were performing the autopsy, they saw this hole in the right shoulder or back of the head, and in the back, and that was the first I had known that he was ever shot there, and they brought it to our attention or discussed it there a little bit. SPECTER. What conversation was there concerning the wound on the right back? GREER. Well, the doctors and people who were performing the autopsy, when they turned the body apparently over they discovered that this wound was in the back, and they thought that they probably could get a bullet out of there, and it took a lot of — then they took more X-rays, they took a lot of X-rays, we looked at them and couldn't find the trace of any bullet anywhere in the X-rays at all, nothing showed on the X-rays where this bullet or lead could have gone. SPECTER. Approximately where in the President's back was the bullet hole? GREER. It was, to the best of my recollection it was, back here, just in the soft part of that shoulder. SPECTER. Indicating the upper right shoulder area? GREER. Upper right, yes. SPECTER. Was there any effort made to probe that wound by any doctor? GREER. I believe, yes, I believe the doctors probed to see if they could find that there was a bullet there. SPECTER. Do you know which doctor that was? GREER. No, sir; I don't. I don't have their names at this time. SPECTER. Did any doctor make any statement about the results of his probing effort? GREER. I questioned one of the doctors in there about that, and when we found out that they had found a bullet in Dallas, I questioned the doctor about it and he said if they were using pressure on the chest that it could very well have been, come back out, where it went in at, that is what they said at the time. ( At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) SPECTER. Was anything said about any channel being present in the body for the bullet to have gone on through the back? GREER. No, sir; I hadn't heard anything like that, any trace of it going on through. SPECTER. Did you just mention, Mr. Greer, a hole in the President's head in addition to the large area of the skull which was shot away? GREER. No. I had just seen that, you know, the head was damaged in all this part of it but I believe looking at the X-rays, I looked at the X-rays when they were taken in the autopsy room, and the person who does that type work showed us the trace of it because there would be little specks of lead where the bullet had come from here and it came to the — they showed where it didn't come on through. It came to a sinus cavity or something they said, over the eye. SPECTER. Indicating the right eye. GREER. I may be wrong. SPECTER. You don't know which eye? GREER. I don't know which eye, I may be wrong. But their showed us the trace of it coming through but there were very little small specks on the X-rays that these professionals knew what course that the bullet had taken, the lead. SPECTER. Would you describe in very general terms what injury you observed as to the President's head during the course of the autopsy? GREER. I would — to the best of my recollection it was in this part of the head right here. SPECTER. Upper right? GREER. Upper right side. SPECTER. Upper right side, going toward the rear. And what was the condition of the skull at that point? GREER. The skull was completely — this part was completely gone. SPECTER. Now, aside from that opening which you have described and you have indicated a circle with a diameter of approximately 5 inches, would you say that is about what you have indicated there? GREER. Approximately I would say 5 inches; yes. SPECTER. Did you observe any other opening or hole of any sort in the head itself? GREER. No, sir; I didn't. No other one. SPECTER. Specifically did you observe a hole which would be below the large area of skull which was absent? GREER. No, sir; I didn't. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to look in the back of the head immediately below where the skull was missing? GREER. No; I can't remember even examining the head that close at that time. SPECTER. When President Kennedy was being treated in the emergency room at Parkland Hospital, were any pictures or X-rays taken of him there? GREER. No, sir; not that I know of. I didn't see any being taken. SPECTER. Was he ever turned over that you observed while being treated at Parkland Hospital? GREER. No, sir. I can't recollect him ever being turned over. SPECTER. Do you have any recollection that he was In fact not turned over? GREER. No, sir; I couldn't even say. I didn't see them turn him over in any way in my vision, although my back was to him quite often and because I was attending to the door and they could have done it. SPECTER. Was be on a stretcher at the time he was being worked on at Parkland Hospital? GREER. I can't remember whether they changed him from a stretcher to a table. I am not sure on that. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, as to the return of the President's automobile to Washington, do you know how that was accomplished? GREER. It was driven to Love Field, and put aboard the same C-130 it was taken out on and flown back to Andrews Air Force Base. SPECTER. Do you know when it was returned from Dallas to the Washington area? GREER. I believe it was returned shortly after, it left shortly after, the President's plane left, was flown back. SPECTER. I hand you two photographs marked Commission Exhibit No. 352 and Commission Exhibit No. 353. Do those photographs represent the condition of the back seat of the President's car at some time? GREER. Yes, sir; they do. SPECTER. And at what time do those pictures look just as the back seat of the President's car looked? GREER. It looked like that when it came back from Dallas. SPECTER. Did it look like that immediately after President Kennedy was removed from the back seat? GREER. I wasn't there any more, sir. I was with the President after they lifted him out. I didn't see the car after he had been removed. SPECTER. Did you observe the back seat of the car at any time from the time you arrived at Parkland Hospital until you observed the automobile in Washington? GREER. No, sir. SPECTER. On November 23? GREER. No, air; I didn't. SPECTER. By the way, Mr. Greer, how much, approximately, does or did the President's automobile weigh? GREER. It weighed between — well, for flight reason we said 8,000, but it wasn't that much. It probably was 7,500. We had extra weight on it. SPECTER. Are you able to tell the Commission the dimensions of the automobile, indicating its length? GREER. Yes, sir. It is 21 feet 8 inches long. SPECTER. And how wide? GREER. I would have to go back for the width on it. I have it all in black and white in the office, but I haven't got it with me in my head right now; I am sorry. SPECTER. Could three people sit comfortably in the front seat of the automobile? GREER. Yes, sir; it was wide enough for three. We many times had an aide in there; many times, an aide rode in the front. SPECTER. Was it as wide or wider than, say, a Cadillac automobile? GREER. No, sir; it would be probably the same width. BOGGS. Was that car specially made for the President? GREER. Yes, sir; it was a specially built car. BOGGS. Was it a Lincoln Continental? GREER. Yes, sir; a Lincoln Continental. BOGGS. How did it differ from the ordinary Lincoln? GREER. Well, Lincoln doesn't make a seven-passenger car, and this was a seven-passenger car. The back seat on this car would raise 8 inches. It was electric, and you could lift, you could raise, the seat up 8 inches from the ground, from the floorboards. It had a little step that went with it. The President could raise it up and down himself. He had a button alongside that would cause it to go up and down when the top wasn't down. It wouldn't go up and down when the top was down. But when it was off he could raise it up or down, and it would be above the other seat. SPECTER. Do you know whether the seat was actually raised at the time of the assassination? GREER. No, air; I couldn't say right off. I don't believe it was, but I wouldn't know. SPECTER. Going back to the shots themselves, Mr. Greer, do you have any reaction as to the direction from which the shots came? GREER. They sounded like they were behind me, to the right rear of me. SPECTER. Would that be as to all three shots? GREER. Yes, sir. They sounded, everything sounded, behind me, to me. That was my thought, train of thought, that they were behind me. SPECTER. Have you ever had any reaction or thought at any time since the assassination that the shots came from the front of the car? GREER. No, sir; I had never even the least thought that they could come. There was no thought in my mind other than that they were behind me. SPECTER. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Boggs, are there any questions you would like to ask the agent? BOGGS. I don't think so, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford. FORD. Did you ever have any thought there were more than three shots? GREER. No. sir: I never did. FORD. Did you positively identify the fact that there were one, two, three, or was there one, and then a delay, and then a flurry? GREER. To the best of my recollection, Congressman, was that the last two were closer together than the first one. It seemed like the first one, and then there was, you know, bang, bang, just right behind it almost. The two seemed, the last two seemed, closer to me than the other. BOGGS. Did you speed up after you heard the first shot? GREER. After I heard the second. The first one didn't sink into me, didn't give me the thought that it was a shot. I thought it was the backfire of a motorcycle. But when I heard the second one and glanced over my shoulder, I knew something was wrong then. I didn't know how bad anyone was injured or anything, but I knew there was something wrong, and right away after the second one I accelerated as fast as I could. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Craig, would you like to ask any questions? CRAIG. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. With respect to the position of the President's car that you were driving as it approached the underpass, you state now that you couldn't fix any specific distance. But would you say it was less than a mile that the President's car was from the overpass? GREER. Oh, definitely. I couldn't say in feet or yards, but it was within — it was feet. I would say probably a hundred or 200 feet. It could be within that; it was definitely right up close to me, but — CRAIG. With respect to your vision, was it unobstructed down the roadway, looking at the overpass? GREER. Yes, sir; there were no obstructions in the road that I could see. CRAIG. As I recall your testimony, you were actually observing the overpass to see if there was any person there. GREER. People up there at that time I would be doubtful of going underneath. CRAIG. Yes, sir. And you say now you do not recollect that you saw anyone there? GREER. Yes, sir. CRAIG. You said also, I believe, that it was some time now since you made that observation Did you make any report of any kind with respect to anyone being on the overpass immediately after this incident? GREER. No, sir. CRAIG. You made no written report to anybody as to whether or not there were people on the overpass or were not people? GREER. No, sir; I haven't. CRAIG. Do you believe if you had observed people on the overpass at that time you would now remember GREER. Yes, sir; I believe I would; yes, sir. CRAIG. If you had observed people on the overpass as you proceeded toward it, and they were other than a policeman or policemen or some other law-enforcement agent, what would you have done? GREER. Well, I try never to go underneath a bridge if there are people up over it, if there are people who I don't know as law enforcement. I try not to go underneath them. I will probably veer to one side of them st any time. That is a matter of our training, that we try not to go underneath anyone with an open car where anyone could drop something. CRAIG. Would you ever stop, if necessary, if you thought there were people up there that you couldn't veer around? GREER. If there was any danger there I would have to either change my way of traveling. I have never had it happen, and never had any reason to, but we try, I try, not to go underneath a group of people standing on any overpass at any time. I try to move over, if the condition permits me to. Sometimes, when the road is too narrow, I couldn't. But that is part of our procedure, I think, to see that no one is on an overpass. CRAIG. That is all. The CHAIRMAN. If there are no further questions — SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, may I ask one or two other questions? The CHAIRMAN. Yes. SPECTER. I have just noted that we have the report of the FBI which bears Bureau file No. 105-S, as it appears here somewhat indistinct, S-2555, "Report of Special Agent Robert P. Gemberling, dated December ]0, ]963," and this refers, Mr. Greer, to an interview of you by Special Agents Francis X. O'Neill, Jr., and James W. Sibert. There is a report here of an interview of you and of Special Agent Kellerman, and the date here is listed as November 22, 1963, and there is this reference made in the report, and I will quote it verbatim: "Greer stated that he first heard what he thought was possibly a motorcycle backfire, and glanced around and noticed that the President had evidently been hit. He thereafter got on the radio and communicated with the other vehicles stating that they desired to get the President to the hospital immediately." GREER. I didn't go on the radio. It was Mr. Kellerman who done the radio talking. I didn't. It is a misquote if I done it. I didn't get on the radio. Mr. Kellerman did. SPECTER. Did you ever make this statement, Mr. Greer, to Special Agent O'Neill or Sibert? GREER. Those two agents were in during the autopsy; those two agents were in the autopsy room, with Mr. Kellerman and I, all night. Mr. Sibert and O'Neill were both in the autopsy room with us during that time, and the only time that any of us, either Mr. Kellerman or I, we never left the room, one or the other. We went and got some coffee and came right back, something like that, and the FBI did the same thing. One of them left; the other stayed. SPECTER. Do you now recollect whether or not you ever said to them that you were the one who communicated on the radio with the other vehicles? GREER. No, sir; I know I never remember saying that to them because I know I didn't do it. So that is how I know that I didn't say it, because I know I didn't do it. Mr. Kellerman did. SPECTER. And the first part refers to your noticing that the President evidently had been hit. Did you ever — GREER. I have no recollection of ever telling the agents that I said that; no, sir. If I said it, I don't remember saying it. The Governor was the person that I knew was— when we were first in trouble, when I see the Governor. SPECTER. To the best of your current recollection, did you notice that the President had been hit? GREER. No. sir; I didn't know how badly he was injured or anything other than that. I didn't know. SPECTER. Did you know at all, from the glance which you have described that he had been hit or injured in any way? GREER. I knew he was injured in some way, but I didn't know how bad or what SPECTER. How did you know that? GREER. If I remember now, I just don't remember how I knew, but I knew we were in trouble. I knew that he was injured, but I can't remember, recollect, just how I knew there were injuries in there. I didn't know who all was hurt, even. SPECTER. Are you able to recollect whether you saw the President after the shots as you were proceeding toward Parkland Hospital? GREER. No; I don't remember ever seeing him any more until I got to the hospital, and he was lying across the seat, you know, and that is the first I had seen of him. SPECTER. Your best recollection is, then, that you had the impression he was injured but you couldn't ascertain the source of that information? GREER. Right. I couldn't ascertain the source. FORD. Did you hear the President say anything after the first shot? GREER. No, sir; I never heard him say anything; never at any time did I ever hear him say anything. BOGGS. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything to you while you were driving to the hospital? GREER. No, sir; she didn't BOGGS. Did Mrs. Connally say anything to you? GREER. No. Mrs. Connally didn't say anything, either. There is quite a little distance between the front and the back seat of that car. As you know, it is 21 feet long, and you are quite a little bit away, and there was the sirens were all going. The following car had a siren wide — the big one on the fender was wide open. There wasn't much chance for me to hear anything, and I was really occupied with getting there just as fast as I could and not seeing that anything happened, avoid an accident or anything like that. SPECTER. Did you have a siren on your car? GREER. I didn't have mine going. There is a siren on that car, but I didn't even reach down to work it. BOGGS. There was another agent in the car with you? GREER. Mr. Kellerman; yes, sir. BOGGS. And after the first shot, did he say to speed up or what? GREER. I believe it was at the second that he and I both simultaneously — he said, "Get out of here fast," and I speeded up as fast as I could then and as fast as the car would go. The CHAIRMAN. If there are no further questions, thank you very much, Mr. Greer. GREER. Thank you, sir. The CHAIRMAN. You may be excused. GREER. Thank you, sir. The CHAIRMAN. We will take a short recess. ( Short recess.) </DIVISION2><DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2>C. Hill - SA for First Lady</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> TESTIMONY OF CLINTON J. HILL, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE SPECTER. Mr. Hill, would you state your full name for the record, please? HILL. Clinton J. Hill. SPECTER. How old are you, sir? HILL. Thirty-two. SPECTER. What is your educational background? HILL. I went to secondary educational high school in Washburn, N. Dak., and then went onto Concordia College, Moorehead, Minn. I was a history and education major, with a minor in physical education. SPECTER. What year were you graduated? HILL. 1954. SPECTER. What have you done since the time of graduation from college, Mr. Hill? HILL. I went into the Army in 1954; remained in the Army until 1957. Then I couldn't determine what I wanted to do, whether to go to law school or not, and I took a couple of odd jobs. I worked for a finance company at one time. Then I went to work for the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railroad as a special agent in the spring of 1958, and entered the Secret Service in September 1958. SPECTER. You have been with the Secret Service since September 1958 to the present time? HILL. Yes; I have. SPECTER. Will you outline for the Commission your duties with the Secret Service during your tenure there? HILL. I entered the Secret Service in Denver, and during that period I did both investigative and protection work. I was assigned to Mrs. Doud, the mother-in-law of President Eisenhower. I attended the Treasury Law Enforcement School during my first year, and was sent to the White House for a 30-day temporary assignment at the White House in June 1959. In November of 1959, November 1, I was transferred to the White House on a permanent basis as a special agent assigned to the White House detail. I have been at the White House since that time. SPECTER. Now, were you assigned to duties on the trip of President Kennedy to Texas in November 1963? HILL. Yes, sir; I was. SPECTER. Did you have any special duty assigned to you at that time? HILL. Yes, sir. SPECTER. In connection with the trip? HILL. I was responsible for the protection of Mrs. Kennedy. SPECTER. And, in a general way, what does that sort of an assignment involve? HILL. I tried to remain as close to her at all times as possible, and in this particular trip that meant being with the President because all of their doings on this trip were together rather than separate. I would go over her schedule to make sure she knows what she is expected to do; discuss it with her; remain in her general area all the time; protect her from any danger. SPECTER. Would you tell us, in a general way, what were the activities of the President and Mrs. Kennedy on the morning of Friday, November 22, before they arrived in Dallas? HILL. I went to the fifth floor, I believe it was, where the President and Mrs. Kennedy were staying in the Texas Hotel in Fort Worth at 8:15 in the morning. President Kennedy was to go downstairs and across the street to make a speech to a gathering in a parking lot. I remained on the floor during the period the President was gone. It was raining outside, I recall. About 9:25 I received word from Special Agent Duncan that the President requested Mrs. Kennedy to come to the mezzanine, where a breakfast was being held in his honor, and where he was about to speak. I went in and advised Mrs. Kennedy of this, and took her down to where the President was speaking; remained with her adjacent to the head table in this particular area during the speech; and accompanied she and the President back up to the, I believe it was, the fifth floor of the hotel, their residential area; remained on that floor until we left, went downstairs, got into the motorcade, and departed the hotel for the airport to leave Fort Worth for Dallas. We were airborne approximately 11:20, I believe, in Air Force 1. I was in the aft compartment, which is part of the residential compartment, and we arrived in Dallas at 11:40. SPECTER. Would you describe, in a general way, what the President and Mrs. Kennedy did upon arrival in Dallas? HILL. They debarked the rear ramp of the aircraft first, followed by Governor and Mrs. Connally, various Congressmen and Senators. And Special Agent in Charge Kellerman and myself went down the ramp. There was a small reception committee at the foot of the ramp, and somebody gave Mrs. Kennedy some red roses, I recall. I walked immediately to the follow-up car and placed my topcoat, which is a raincoat, and small envelope containing some information concerning the Dallas stop in the follow-up car, returning to where the President and Mrs. Kennedy were at that time greeting a crippled lady in a wheelchair. SPECTER. What do you estimate the size of the crowd to have been at Dallas that morning? HILL. At the airport? SPECTER. Yes, sir. HILL. It is rather difficult to say. They were behind a chain-link fence, not on the airport ramp itself, and they were jammed up against the fenceholding placards, and many young people in the crowd. I would say there were probably 2,000 people there. SPECTER. At approximately what time did the motorcade depart from Love Field to Dallas? HILL. Approximately 11:55. SPECTER. Do you know approximately how many automobiles there were in the motorcade? HILL. No, sir; I do not. SPECTER. In which car in the motorcade were you positioned? HILL. I was working the follow-up car, which is the car immediately behind the Presidential car. SPECTER. And how many cars are there ahead of the follow-up car, then, in the entire motorcade? HILL. There was a lead car ahead of the President's car, the President's car, then this particular follow-up car. SPECTER. Do you how whether there was any car in advance of the car termed the lead car? HILL. There could have been a pilot car, but I am not sure. SPECTER. Now, approximately how far in front of the President's car did the lead car stay during the course of the motorcade? HILL. I would say a half block, maybe. SPECTER. And how far was the President's car in front of the President's follow-up car during the course of the motorcade? HILL. Approximately 5 feet SPECTER. Is there some well-established practice as to the spacing between the President's car and the President's follow-up car? HILL. It would depend upon speed. We attempt to stay as close to the President's car as practical. At high rates of speed it is rather difficult to stay close because of the danger involved. Slow speeds, the follow-up car stays as close as possible so that the agents on the follow-up car can get to the Presidential car as quickly as possible. SPECTER. What was the first car to the rear of the President's follow-up car? HILL. The Vice-Presidential automobile. SPECTER. What car was immediately behind the Vice President's automobile? HILL. The Vice-Presidential follow-up car. SPECTER. Do you know what cars in the Dallas motorcade followed the Vice President's follow-up car? HILL. Well, I couldn't say which car any individual rode in after that particular automobile, but I could say they were occupied by members of the staff, both President Kennedy's and Vice President Johnson's; Congressmen and Senators who were on this particular trip; newspaper personnel who were on this trip. SPECTER. Would you identify the occupants of the President's follow-up car and indicate where each was in the automobile. HILL. The car itself was driven by Special Agent Sam Kinney, and Assistant to the Special Agent in Charge Emery Roberts was riding in the right front seat. I was assigned to work the left running board of the automobile, the forward portion of that running board. McIntyre was assigned to work the rear portion of the left running board. Special Agent John Ready was assigned the forward portion of the right running board; Special Agent Paul Landis was assigned the rear portion of the right running board. There were two jump seats, and they were occupied by two Presidential aides, Mr. O'Donnell and Mr. Powers. Mr. Powers was sitting on the right-hand side; Mr. O'Donnell on the left. The rear seat was occupied, left rear by Special Agent Hickey, right rear, Special Agent Bennett. SPECTER. How were the agents armed at that time? HILL. All the agents were armed with their hand weapons. SPECTER. And is there any weapon in the automobile in addition to the hand weapons? HILL. Yes. There is an AR-15, which is an automatic rifle, and a shotgun. SPECTER. And where is the AR-15 kept? HILL. Between the two agents in the rear seat. SPECTER. How about the shotgun; where is that kept? HILL. In a compartment immediately in front of the jump seats. SPECTER. Is the President's follow-up car a specially constructed automobile. HILL. Yes, sir; it is. SPECTER. And what is the make and model and general description of that vehicle? HILL. It is a 1955 Cadillac, nine-passenger touring sedan. It is a covertible type. SPECTER. Was that automobile flown in specially from Washington for the occasion? HILL. Yes; it was, sir. SPECTER. Do you know how that automobile was transported to Dallas, Tex.? HILL. Generally, it is flown in a C-130 by the Air Force. I am not sure how on this particular occasion. SPECTER. Will you describe, in a general way, the composition of the crowds en route from Love Field down to the center of Dallas, please? HILL. Well, when we left Love Field, we went away from the crowd to get to the exit point at Love Field, and there were no crowds at all, and then we, departing Love Field, found the crowds were sporadic. There were people here and there. Some places they had built up and other places they were thinned out. The speed of the motorcade was adjusted accordingly. Whenever there were large groups of people, the motorcade slowed down to give the people an opportunity to view the President. When there were not many people along the side of the street, we speeded up. We didn't really hit the crowds until we hit Main Street. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the maximum speed of the automobile from the time you left Love Field until the time you arrived at downtown Dallas? HILL. I would say we never ran any faster than 25 to 30 miles per hour. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the minimum speed during this same interval? HILL. Twelve to fifteen miles per hour. We did stop. SPECTER. On what occasion did you stop? HILL. Between Love Field and Main Street, downtown Dallas, on the right-hand side of the street there were a group of people with a long banner which said, "Please, Mr. President, stop and shake our hands." And the President requested the motorcade to stop, and he beckoned to the people and asked them to come and shake his hand, which they did. SPECTER. Did the President disembark from his automobile at that time? HILL. No; he remained in his seat. SPECTER. At that time what action, if any, did you take? HILL. I jumped from the follow-up car and ran up to the left rear portion of the automobile with my back toward Mrs. Kennedy viewing those persons on the left-hand side of the street. SPECTER. What action was taken by any other Secret Service agent which you observed at that time? HILL. Special Agent Ready, who was working the forward portion of the right running board, did the same thing, only on the President's side, placed his back toward the car, and viewed the people facing the President. Assistant in Charge Kellerman opened the door of the President's car and stepped out on the street. SPECTER. What action was taken by Special Agent McIntyre, if you know? HILL. I do not know. SPECTER. How about Special Agent Landis? HILL. I do not know. SPECTER. What is your normal procedure for action in the event the President's car is stopped, as it did in that event? HILL. Special Agent McIntyre would normally jump off the car and run to the forward portion of the left-hand side of the car; Special Agent Landis would move to the right-hand forward portion of the automobile. SPECTER. Did anything else which was unusual occur en route from Love Field to the downtown area of Dallas? HILL. Before we hit Main Street? SPECTER Yes, sir. HILL. Not that I recall. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to leave the President's follow-up car at any time? HILL. When we finally did reach Main Street, the crowds had built up to a point where they were surging into the street. We had motorcycles running adjacent to both the Presidential automobile and the follow-up car, as well as in front of the Presidential automobile, and because of the crowds in the street, the President's driver, Special Agent Greer, was running the car more to the left-hand side of the street more than he was to the right to keep the President as far away from the crowd as possible, and because of this the motorcycles on the left-hand side could not get past the crowd and alongside the car, and they were forced to drop back. I jumped from the follow-up car, ran up and got on top of the rear portion of the Presidential automobile to be close to Mrs. Kennedy in the event that someone attempted to grab her from the crowd or throw something in the car. SPECTER. When you say the rear portion of the automobile, can you, by referring to Commission Exhibit No. 345, heretofore identified as the President's automobile, specify by penciled "X" where you stood? HILL. Yes, sir [indicating]. SPECTER. Will you describe for the record just what area it is back there on which you stood? HILL. That is a step built into the rear bumper of the automobile, and on top of the rear trunk there is a hand guard which you grab for and hang onto when you are standing up. SPECTER. Are identical objects of those descriptions existing on each side of the President's car? HILL. Yes. sir; they do. SPECTER. Did you have any other occasion en route from Love Field to downtown Dallas to leave the follow- up car and mount that portion of the President's car? HILL. I did the same thing approximately four times. SPECTER. What are the standard regulations and practices, if any, governing such an action on your part? HILL. It is left to the agent's discretion more or less to move to that particular position when he feels that there is a danger to the President; to place himself as close to the President or the First Lady as my case was, as possible, which I did. SPECTER. Are those practices specified in any written documents of the Secret Service? HILL. No; they are not. SPECTER. Now, had there been any instruction or comment about your performance of that type of a duty with respect to anything that President Kennedy himself had said in the period immediately preceding the trip to Texas? HILL. Yes, sir; there was. The preceding Monday, the President was on a trip in Tampa, Fla., and he requested that the agents not ride on either of those two steps. SPECTER. And to whom did the President make that request? HILL. Assistant Special Agent in Charge Boring. SPECTER. Was Assistant Special Agent in Charge Boring the individual in charge of that trip to Florida? HILL. He was riding in the Presidential automobile on that trip in Florida, and I presume that he was. I was not along. SPECTER. Well, on that occasion would he have been in a position comparable to that occupied by Special Agent Kellerman on this trip to Texas? HILL. Yes, sir; the same position. SPECTER. And Special Agent Boring informed you of that instruction by President Kennedy? HILL. Yes, sir; he did. SPECTER. Did he make it a point to inform other special agents of that same instruction? HILL. I believe that he did, sir. SPECTER. And, as a result of what President Kennedy said to him, did he instruct you to observe that Presidential admonition? HILL. Yes, sir. SPECTER. How, if at all, did that instruction of President Kennedy affect your action and — your action in safeguarding him on this trip to Dallas? HILL. We did not ride on the rear portions of the automobile. I did on those four occasions because the motorcycles had to drop back and there was no protection on the left-hand side of the car. SPECTER. When the President's automobile was proceeding in downtown Dallas, what was the ordinary speed of the automobile, based on your best estimate? HILL. We were running approximately 12 to 15 miles per hour, I would say. SPECTER. I show you a document which we have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 354, which is an aerial photograph identical with the photograph already marked as Commission Exhibit No. 347. (The photograph referred to was marked Exhibit No. 354 for identification.) SPECTER. I ask you if, referring only to Exhibit 354, you are able to identify what that scene is. HILL. Yes, sir; I am. SPECTER. Are you able to indicate the route which the President's motorcade followed through that area? HILL. Yes, sir; I am. SPECTER. And what does that scene depict— what city is it? HILL. That is Dallas, Tex. It shows Main Street, Houston Street, and Elm Street. SPECTER. Will you write on the picture itself where Main Street is? Would you now write, as best you can, which street is Houston Street? HILL. Yes, sir. SPECTER. And would you now write which street is Elm? HILL. Yes, sir. (At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) SPECTER. Now, would you indicate, if you know, which is a generally northerly direction on that picture? HILL. Yes, sir. SPECTER. All right. What was the condition of the crowd as the motorcade made a right-hand turn off of Main Street onto Houston? HILL. The crowd was very large on Main Street, and it was thinning down considerably when we reached the end of it, and turned right on Houston Street. Noticeably on my side of the car, which was the left-hand side of the street. SPECTER. And what is your best estimate as to the speed of the President's car at the time it made the right-hand turn onto Houston Street? HILL. In the curve? SPECTER. The speed — in the curve itself; yes. HILL. We were running generally 12 to 15 miles per hour. I would say that in the curve we perhaps slowed to maybe 10 miles per hour. SPECTER. And how far behind the President's car was the Presidential follow-up car as the turn was made onto Houston Street? HILL. Four to five feet, at the most. SPECTER. I show you a photograph of a building which has already been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 348, and ask you if at this time you can identify what that building is. HILL. I believe I can, sir; yes. SPECTER. And what building is it? HILL. It is the Texas School Book Depository. SPECTER. Now, does that building appear on the Commission Exhibit No. 354? HILL. Yes, sir; it does. SPECTER Did you have any occasion to notice the Texas School Book Depository Building as you proceeded in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street? HILL. Yes, sir. It was immediately in front of us and to our left. SPECTER. Did you notice anything unusual about it? HILL. Nothing more unusual than any other building along the way. SPECTER. What is your general practice, if any, in observing such buildings along the route of a Presidential motorcade? HILL. We scan the buildings and look specifically for open windows, for people hanging out, and there had been, on almost every building along the way, people hanging out, windows open. SPECTER. And did you observe, as you recollect at this moment, any open windows in the Texas School Depository Building? HILL. Yes, sir; there were. SPECTER. Are you able to recollect specifically which windows were open at this time? HILL. No. sir; I cannot. SPECTER. What was the condition of the crowd along the streets, if any, along Elm Street, in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building? HILL. On the left-hand side of the street, which is the side I was on, the crowd was very thin. And it was a general park area. There were people scattered throughout the entire park. SPECTER. Now, what is your best estimate of the speed of the President's automobile as it turned left off of Houston onto Elm Street? HILL. We were running still 12 to 15 miles per hour, but in the curve I believe we slowed down maybe to 10, maybe to 9. SPECTER. How far back of the President's automobile was the Presidential follow-up car when the President's follow-up car had just straightened out on Elm Street? HILL. Approximately 5 feet. SPECTER. Now, as the motorcade proceeded at that point, tell us what happened. HILL. Well, as we came out of the curve, and began to straighten up, I was viewing the area which looked to be a park. There were people scattered throughout the entire park. And I heard a noise from my right rear, which to me seemed to be a firecracker. I immediately looked to my right, and, in so doing, my eyes had to cross the Presidential limousine and I saw President Kennedy grab at himself and lurch forward and to the left. SPECTER. Why don't you just proceed, in narrative form, to tell us? BOGGS. This was the first shot? HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object — it seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car. Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy — the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his left. Mrs. Kennedy had jumped up from the seat and was, it appeared to me, reaching for something coming off the right rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail, when she noticed that I was trying to climb on the car. She turned toward me and I grabbed her and put her back in the back seat, crawled up on top of the back seat and lay there. SPECTER. Now, referring to Commission Exhibit No. 354, would you mark an "X," as best you can, at the spot where the President's automobile was at the time the first shot occurred? HILL. Approximately there. SPECTER. And would you mark a "Y" at the approximate position where the President's car was at the second shot you have described? What is your best estimate of the speed of the President's car at the precise time of the first shot, Mr. Hill? HILL. We were running between 12 to 15 miles per hour, but no faster than 15 miles per hour. SPECTER. How many shots have you described that you heard? HILL. Two. SPECTER Did you hear any more than two shots? HILL. No, sir. SPECTER. And what is your best estimate of the speed of the President's automobile at the time of the second shot? HILL. Approximately the same speed as that of the first — although at the time that I jumped on the car, the car had surged forward. The President at that time had been shot in the head. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did the car accelerate — that is, the President's car? HILL. Almost simultaneously. SPECTER You testified just a moment ago that the President grabbed at himself immediately after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker. HILL. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Would you tell us with more particularity in what way he grabbed at himself? HILL. He grabbed in this general area. SPECTER. You are indicating that your right hand is coming up to your — to the throat? HILL. Yes, sir. SPECTER. And the left hand crosses right under the right hand. HILL. To the chest area. SPECTER. To the chest area. Was there any movement of the President's head or shoulders immediately after the first shot, that you recollect? HILL. Yes, sir. Immediately when I saw him, he was like this, and going left and forward. SPECTER. Indicating a little fall to the left front. HILL. Yes, sir. BOGGS. This was after a head wound? HILL. No, sir. BOGGS. Before the head wound? HILL. Yes, sir; this was the first shot. SPECTER. Now, what is your best estimate on the time span between the first firecracker-type noise you heard and the second shot which you have described? HILL. Approximately 5 seconds. SPECTER. Now, did the impact on the President's head occur simultaneously, before, or after the second noise which you have described? HILL. Almost simultaneously. FORD. Did you see the President put his hands to his throat and chest while you were still on the follow-up car, or after you had left it? HILL. As I was leaving. And that is one of the reasons I jumped, because I saw him grab himself and pitch forward and to the left. I knew something was wrong. FORD. It was 5 seconds from the firecracker noise that you think you got to the automobile? HILL. Until I reached the handhold, had placed my foot on the left rear step. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did Mrs. Kennedy move out of the rear seat? HILL. Just after it. SPECTER. You say that it appeared that she was reaching as if something was coming over to the rear portion of the car, back in the area where you were coming HILL. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Was there anything back there that you observed, that she might have been reaching HILL. I thought I saw something come off the back, too, but I cannot say that there was. I do know that the next day we found the portion of the President's head. SPECTER. Where did you find that portion of the President's head? HILL. It was found in the street. It was turned in, I believe, by a medical student or somebody in Dallas. SPECTER. Did you have any difficulty maintaining your balance on the back of the car after you had come up on the top of it? HILL. Not until we turned off to enter the Parkland Hospital. SPECTER. Now, what action did you take specifically with respect to placing Mrs. Kennedy back in the rear seat? HILL. I simply just pushed and she moved — somewhat voluntarily — right back into the same seat she was in. The President — when she had attempted to get out onto the trunk of the car, his body apparently did not move too much, because when she got back into the car he was at that time, when got on top of the car, face up in her lap. SPECTER And that was after she was back in the rear seat? HILL. Yes, sir. SPECTER. And where were the President's legs at that time? HILL. Inside the car. SPECTER. Now, what, if anything, did you observe as to the condition of Governor Connally at that time? HILL. After going under this underpass, I looked forward to the jump seats, where Mrs. Connally and Governor Connally were sitting. Mrs. Connally had been leaning over her husband. And I had no idea that he had been shot. And when she leaned back at one time, I noticed that his coat was unbuttoned, and that the lower portion of his abdomen was completely covered with blood. SPECTER. When was it that you first observed that? HILL. Just after going under the underpass. SPECTER. Were you able to observe anything which was occurring on the overpass as the President's motorcade moved toward the overpass? HILL. From the time I got on the back of the Presidential limousine, I didn't really pay any attention to what was going on outside the automobile. SPECTER. Had you noticed the overpass prior to the time you got on the Presidential automobile? HILL. Yes; I had scanned it. SPECTER. And do you recollect what, if anything, you observed on the overpass at that time? HILL. There were some people there, but I also noticed there was a policeman there. SPECTER. Approximately how many people would you say were there? HILL. Very few, I would say — maybe five, six. SPECTER. And how were you able to identify that there was a policeman there? HILL. He was wearing the uniform — presumably a policeman. SPECTER. What color uniform was it? HILL. I think it was blue of some shade. SPECTER. Did you identify it at that time as being of the identical color which other Dallas policemen were wearing whom you had observed in the area? HILL. That's correct, sir. SPECTER. Can you characterize the type of acceleration which the car made after it started to speed forward — that is, the Presidential car. HILL. Well, the initial surge was quite violent, because it almost jerked me off the left rear step board. Then after that it was apparently gradual. because I did not notice it any more. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance from the time of the shooting to Parkland Hospital? HILL. In time or — SPECTER. Time and distance. HILL. Distance, I have no idea. SPECTER. How about time? HILL. I would say roughly 4 minutes. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything as you were proceeding from the time of the shooting to Parkland Hospital? HILL. At the time of the shooting, when I got into the rear of the car, she said, "My God, they have shot his head off." Between there and the hospital she just said, "Jack, Jack, what have they done to you," and sobbed. SPECTER. Was there any conversation by anybody else in the President's automobile from the time of the shooting to the arrival at Parkland Hospital? HILL. I heard Special Agent Kellerman say on the radio. "To the nearest hospital, quick." SPECTER. Any other comment? HILL. He said, "We have been hit." SPECTER. Now, was there any other comment you heard Special Agent Kellerman make? HILL. Not that I recall. SPECTER. Did Special Agent Greer say anything? HILL. No, sir. SPECTER. Mrs. Connally say anything? HILL. No, sir. BOGGS. Was Governor Connally conscious? HILL. Yes, sir; he was. SPECTER. Did Governor Connally say anything? HILL. No, sir. SPECTER. Did President Kennedy say anything? HILL. No, sir. SPECTER. What is your best estimate on the speed at which the President's car traveled from the point of the shooting to Parkland Hospital? HILL. It is a little bit hard for me to judge, since I was lying across the rear portion of the automobile. I had no trouble staying in that particular position — until we approached the hospital, I recall, I believe it was a left-hand turn and I started slipping off to the right-hand portion of the car. So I would say that we went 60, maybe 65 at the most. SPECTER. Were you able to secure a handhold or a leg hold or any sort of a hold on the automobile as you moved forward? HILL. Yes, sir. I had my legs — I had my body above the rear seat, and my legs hooked down into the rear scat, one foot outside the car. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the time of the assassination itself? HILL. Approximately 12:30. SPECTER. I am not sure whether I asked you about this about how long did it take you to get from the shooting to the hospital? HILL. Approximately 4 minutes. SPECTER. What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition on arrival at the hospital? HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe the front part of his body, to see whether there was any tear or rip in the clothing on the front? HILL. I saw him lying there in the back of the car, when I was immediately above him. I cannot recall noticing anything that was ripped in the forward portion of his body. SPECTER. What action, if any, did you take to shield the President's body? HILL. I kept myself above the President and Mrs. Kennedy on the trip to Parkland. SPECTER. Did you do anything with your coat upon arrival at Parkland Hospital to shield the President? HILL. Yes, sir. I removed it and covered the President's head and upper chest. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you observe as to Governor Connally's condition on arrival at Parkland? HILL. He was conscious. There was a large amount of blood in the lower abdominal area. He was helped from the automobile to the stretcher, and I do not recall him saying anything, but I know that he was conscious. He was wheeled immediately into. I think, emergency room No. 2. SPECTER. And who was removed first from the automobile? HILL. Governor Connally. SPECTER. How long after the President's car arrived at Parkland Hospital? Did medical personnel come to the scene to remove the victims? HILL. Seconds. They were there when we were there almost — almost simultaneously with the arrival. SPECTER. Do you know where President Kennedy was taken in the hospital? HILL. Yes, sir. I accompanied he, and Mrs. Kennedy to the emergency room. SPECTER. Now, tell us what you did at the hospital from the time of arrival on, please. HILL. I went into the emergency room with the President, but it was so small, and there were so many people in there that I decided I had better leave and let the doctors take care of the situation. So I walked outside; asked for the nearest telephone; walked to the nearest telephone. About that time Special Agent in Charge Kellerman came outside and said, "Get the White House." I asked Special Agent Lawson for the local number in Dallas of the White House switchboard, which he gave to me. I called the switchboard in Dallas; asked for the line to be open to Washington, and remain open continuously. And then I asked for Special Agent in Charge Behn's office. Mr. Kellerman came out of the emergency room about that time, took the telephone and called Special Agent in Charge Behn that we had had a double tragedy; that both Governor Connally and President Kennedy had been shot. And that was about as much as he said. I then took the telephone and shortly thereafter Mr. Kellerman came out of the emergency room and said, "Clint, tell Jerry this is unofficial and not for release, but the man is dead." Which I did. During the two calls, I talked to the Attorney General, who attempted to reach me, and told him that his brother had been seriously wounded; that we would keep him advised as to his condition. SPECTER. Where was Mrs. Kennedy all this time, if you know? HILL. Immediately upon arrival, she went into the emergency room. And a few minutes afterward, she was convinced to wait outside, which she did, remained there the rest of the period of time that we were there. SPECTER. And was there any pronouncement that the President had died? HILL. Not that I know of. Apparently there was. I was requested by Mr. O'Donnell, one of the Presidential assistants, to obtain a casket, because they wanted to return to Washington immediately. I contacted the administrator of the hospital and asked him to take me where I could telephone the nearest mortuary, which I did, requested that their best available casket bo brought to the emergency entrance in my name immediately. SPECTER. And what action was taken as a result of that request by you? HILL. The casket did arrive from the O'Neal Mortuary, Inc., in their own hearse, which we then wheeled into the emergency room. I left the emergency room and asked that two of our agents, Special Agent Sullivan and Assistant Special Agent in Charge Stout clear all the corridors, and I checked the closest and most immediate route to the ambulance. We took the body from the hospital and departed the Parkland Hospital about 2:04 p.m. The ambulance was driven by Special Agent Berger. Special Agent in Charge Kellerman and Assistant Special Agent in Charge Stout were riding in the front seat; Mrs. Kennedy, Dr. Burkley, the President's body, and myself ride in the rear portion of the ambulance. SPECTER. Approximately how long did it take you to reach the airplane at Love Field? HILL. We arrived at Love Field at 2:14. SPECTER. And were you present during the swearing-in ceremonies of President Johnson? HILL. I was aboard the aircraft; yes, sir. SPECTER. Did you witness those ceremonies? HILL. Well, the Presidential compartment was so small that not all persons on the aircraft could get in. I was in the forward portion of the aircraft, right adjacent to the area that the President was sworn in SPECTER. Do you know the time of the swearing in? HILL. 2:38. SPECTER. And what time did the Presidential Aircraft depart? HILL. 2:47. SPECTER. Do you know what time it arrived in the Washington area? HILL. 5:59, I believe, sir. SPECTER. And where did it land? HILL. We landed at Andrews Air Force Base. SPECTER. And what action, if any, in connection with this matter did you take following landing? HILL. I assisted Mrs. Kennedy and the Attorney General, who had joined her at that time, into the ambulance bearing the President's body, and I entered the automobile immediately behind the ambulance with Dr. John Walsh, Mrs. Kennedy's physician, and members of President Kennedy's staff. SPECTER. And where did you go then? HILL. Immediately to Bethesda Naval Hospital. SPECTER. And did you stay with the President's family at that time? HILL. When we arrived there, I went to the 17th floor with Mrs. Kennedy, and I remained with Mrs. Kennedy except for one time when I was requested to come to the morgue to view the President's body. SPECTER. And did you view the President's body? HILL. Yes, sir. SPECTER. What action did you take following the time you viewed the President's body in the morgue? HILL. After the viewing of the President's body? SPECTER. Yes. HILL. I returned to the 17th floor and remained with Mrs. Kennedy until we departed the hospital. BOGGS. May I ask a question? At the hospital in Texas, you had seen — had you seen the whole body, or just the back of the President's head? HILL. I had seen the whole body, but he was still cold when I saw him. BOGGS. At the morgue in Bethesda he was not cold? HILL. Yes, sir; the autopsy had been completed, and the Lawler Mortuary Co. was preparing the body for placement in a casket. BOGGS. At this time did you see the whole body? HILL. Yes, sir. BOGGS. Did you see any other wound other than the head wound? HILL. Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column. BOGGS. Was there a frontal neck injury? HILL. There was an area here that had been opened but SPECTER. You are indicating — HILL. In the neck. It was my understanding at that time that this was done by a tracheotomy. SPECTER. What else, if anything, of importance did you do between the time you viewed the body in the morgue until the termination of your duties on that date, Mr. Hill? HILL. We handled all communications on the 17th floor, up to the 17th floor, for Mrs. Kennedy, members of her family, Cabinet members who were there at that time, and secured the 17th floor for all personnel. No one was permitted there that we did not know. SPECTER. What time did you leave the 17th floor? HILL. I believe, sir, it was 3:56, but I am not sure of the exact time. SPECTER. Where did you go from there? HILL. We went downstairs to the rear of the hospital, where the body was placed in a naval ambulance. I entered an automobile immediately behind the ambulance. Mrs. Kennedy and the Attorney General got into the rear of the ambulance with the body. SPECTER. And from there, where did you go? HILL. I accompanied them to the White House. SPECTER. And did that mark the termination of your duties for that day? HILL. No, sir. I remained on duty until approximately 6:30 in the morning; went home, changed clothes, and came back. SPECTER. I believe you testified as to the impression you had as to the source of the first shot. To be sure that the record is complete, what was your reaction as to where the first shot came from, Mr. Hill? HILL. Right rear. SPECTER. And did you have a reaction or impression as to the source of point of origin of the second shot that you described? HILL. It was right, but I cannot say for sure that it was rear, because when I mounted the car it was — it had a different sound, first of all, than the first sound that I heard. The second one had almost a double sound — as though you were standing against something metal and firing into it, and you hear both the sound of a gun going off and the sound of the cartridge hitting the metal place, which could have been caused probably by the hard surface of the head. But I am not sure that that is what caused it. SPECTER. Are you describing this double sound with respect to what you heard on the occasion of the second shot? HILL. The second shot that I heard; yes, sir. SPECTER. Now, do you now or have you ever had the impression or reaction that there was a shot which originated from the front of the Presidential car? HILL. No. SPECTER. That is all I have. The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, any questions you would like to ask? FORD. No. BOGGS. I have no questions, Mr. Chief Justice. The Chairman. Mr. Craig. CRAIG. No, thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. The CHAIRMAN. If not, thank you very much. We appreciate your coming. HILL. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. </DIVISION2><DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2>B. Hargis - police officer</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> TESTIMONY OF BOBBY W. HARGIS The testimony of Bobby W. Hargis was taken at 3:20 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. STERN. Will you stand, please. Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, So help you God? HARGIS. I do. STERN. Would you state for the record your name and residence address? HARGIS. Bobby W. Hargis, 1818 Adelaide, Dallas, Tex. STERN. What is your occupation? HARGIS. Police officer. STERN. How long have you been a member of the Dallas Police Department? HARGIS. Nine years and about 7 months. STERN. And you are now a member of the motorcycle — HARGIS. Division. STERN. Division? HARGIS. Yes. STERN. Were you a part of the motorcade on November 22nd? HARGIS. Yes; I was. STERN. In what position? HARGIS. I was at the left-hand side of the Presidential limousine. STERN. At what part of the President's car? HARGIS. Well— STERN. Front, Or rear? HARGIS. Oh. Rear. STERN. Riding next to Mrs. Kennedy? HARGIS. Right. STERN. Will you describe what occurred or what you observed as the limousine turned into Elm Street? HARGIS. Well, at the time that the limousine turned left on Elm Street I was staying pretty well right up with the car. Sometimes on Elm we couldn't get right up next to it on account of the crowd, but the crowd was thinning out down here at the triple underpass, so, I was next to Mrs. Kennedy when I heard the first shot, and at that time the President bent over, and Governor Connally turned around. He was sitting directly in front of him, and a real shocked and surprised expression on his face. STERN. On Governor Connally's? HARGIS. Yes; that is why I thought Governor Connally had been shot first, but it looked like the President was bending over to hear what he had to say, and I thought to myself then that Governor Connally, the Governor had been hit, and then as the President raised back up like that (indicating) the shot that killed him hit him. I don't know whether it was the second or the third shot. Everything happened so fast. STERN. But, you cannot now recall more than two shots? HARGIS. That is all that I can recall remembering. Of course, everything was moving so fast at the time that there could have been 30 more shots that I probably never would have noticed them. STERN. Did something happen to you, personally in connection with the shot you have just described? HARGIS. You mean about the blood hitting me? STERN. Yes. HARGIS. Yes; when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of a bloody water. It wasn't really blood. And at that time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say, "Get going," or "get going," STERN. Someone inside? HARGIS. I don't know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off, and I stopped and got off my motorcycle and ran to the right-hand side of the street, behind the light pole. STERN. Just a minute. Do you recall your impression at the time regarding the source of the shots? HARGIS. Well, at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me. There wasn't any way in the world I could tell where they were coming from, but at the time there was something in my head that said that they probably could have been coming from the railroad overpass, because I thought since I had got splattered, with blood — I was just a little back and left of — just a little bit back and left of Mrs. Kennedy, but I didn't know. I had a feeling that it might have been from the Texas Book Depository, and these two places was the primary place that could have been shot from. STERN. You were clear that the sounds were sounds of shots? HARGIS. Yes, sir; I knew they were shots. STERN. All right, what did you do then? You say you parked your motorcycle? HARGIS. Yes, uh-huh. STERN. Where? HARGIS. It was to the left-hand side of the street from — south side of Elm Street STERN. And then what did you do? HARGIS. I ran across the street looking over towards the railroad overpass and I remembered seeing people scattering and running and then I looked — STERN. People on the overpass HARGIS. Yes; people that were there to see the President I guess. They were taking pictures and things. It was kind of a confused crowd. I don't know whether they were trying to hide or see what was happening or what — and then I looked over to the Texas School Book Depository Building, and no one that was standing at the base of the building was — seemed to be looking up at the building or anything like they knew where the shots were coming from, so — STERN. How about the people on the incline on the north side of Elm Street? Do you recall their behavior? HARGIS. Yes; I remember a man holding a child. Fell to the ground and covered his child with his body, and people running everywhere, trying to get out of there, I guess, and they were about as confused as to where the shots were coming from as everyone else was. STERN. And did you run up the incline on your side of Elm Street? HARGIS. Yes, sir; I ran to the light post, and I ran up to this kind of a little wall, brick wall up there to see if I could get a better look on the bridge, and, of course, I was looking all around that place by that time. I knew it couldn't have come from the county courthouse because that place was swarming with deputy sheriffs over there. STERN. Did you get behind the picket fence that runs from the overpass to the concrete wall? HARGIS. No. STERN. On the north side of Elm Street? HARGIS. No, no; I don't remember any picket fence. STERN. Did you observe anything then on the overpass, or on the incline, or around the Depository? Anything out of the ordinary besides people running? HARGIS. No; I didn't. That is what got me. STERN. So, at that point you were still uncertain as to the direction of the shots? HARGIS. Yes, uh-huh. STERN. Then, what did you HARGIS. Well, then, I thought since I had looked over at the Texas Book Depository and some people looking out of the windows up there, didn't seem like they knew what was going on, but none of them were looking towards, or near anywhere the shots had been fired from. At the time I didn't know, but about the only activity I could see was on the bridge, on the railroad bridge so — STERN. What sort of activity was that? HARGIS. Well, the people that were up there were just trying to get a better look at what was happening and was in a haze and running, or in a confused fashion, and I thought maybe some of them had seen who did the shooting and the rifle. STERN. Then what did you do? HARGIS. Then I got back on my motorcycle, which was still running, and rode underneath the first underpass to look on the opposite side in order to see if I could see anyone running away from the scene, and since I didn't see anyone coming from that direction I rode under the second underpass, which is Stemmons Expressway and went up around to see if I could see anyone coming from across Stemmons and back that way, and I couldn't see anything that was of a suspicious nature, so, I came back to the Texas School Book Depository. At that time it seemed like the activity was centered around the Texas School Book Depository, so, that is when I heard someone say, one of the sergeants or lieutenants, I don't know, "Don't let anyone out of the Texas School Book Depository," and so, I went to a gap that had not been filled, which was at the southwest corner. STERN. And you remained there until you were relieved? HARGIS. Yes. STERN. Anything else that you haven't told us that you think is relevant to our inquiry? HARGIS. No; I don't believe so. STERN. Thank you very much, Mr. Hargis. The reporter will transcribe your testimony and have it available for you to read and sign if you care to. Otherwise, you may waive your right to review and sign the testimony and she will mail it direct to the Commission, whichever you prefer. It is entirely your option. HARGIS. Well; it really doesn't make any difference. It is more or less what you all think is best. STERN. It's entirely up to you. HARGIS. Well, how long will it be until she fixes it up? STERN. Well, Off the record. (Discussion off the record.) STERN. On the record. HARGIS. All right. Well, just go ahead and I will just let you go ahead and send it in without the signature. STERN. Thank you very much, Mr. Hargis. </DIVISION2><DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2>B. Martin - police officer</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> TESTIMONY OF B.J. MARTIN The testimony of B.J. Martin was taken at 10:10 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. BALL. Will you stand up, please, and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? MARTIN. I do. BALL. Will you state you name, please? MARTIN. B.J. Martin. BALL. And what is your residence address? MARTIN. 11830 Flamingo Lane, Dallas. BALL. What is your occupation? MARTIN. I am a police officer. BALL. With the Dallas Police Department? MARTIN. Yes. BALL. How long have you been with the Police Department? MARTIN. It will be 11 years in June. BALL. Tell me something about yourself, when you were born and where you were raised and where you went to school? MARTIN. I was born in Maud, Okla., Seminole County — went to school — high school at Maud, Okla., and entered the Navy in 1948, from there and was discharged in 1952 and lived at Compton, Okla., for approximately a year, and then returned to Dallas and was employed in the Police Department in June 1953. BALL. And were you employed as a motorcycle officer at that time? MARTIN. No, sir; I was employed as an apprentice policeman and worked in the radio patrol division. BALL. You are not a motorcycle man? MARTIN. Yes. BALL. How long have you been a motorcycle officer? MARTIN. Let's see, 8 years in January. BALL. On November 22. 1963, did you have some special assignment? MARTIN. Yes, sir; I was assigned to the motorcade of President Kennedy. BALL. And you went out to Love Field, did you? MARTIN. Yes, sir; we made detail about 7 o'clock that morning and was assigned, I don't recall now just what time — it was about 30 minutes before his plane was to arrive at Love Field. BALL. And in the motorcade what was your position? MARTIN. I was assigned to ride on the left-hand rear side of President Kennedy. BALL. And were you riding alone there, or was another officer riding with you? MARTIN. There was another officer riding with me, B.W. Hargis. BALL. He was parallel to you on another motorcycle? MARTIN. Yes, sir; we were BALL. Two motorcycles abreast? MARTIN. Yes. BALL. As you turned onto Houston from Main, can you tell me about the speed of the President's car? MARTIN. My estimation would be 4 to 5 miles an hour when we made the turn onto Elm Street from Houston. BALL. From Houston? MARTIN. Yes. BALL. Now, did you make the turn from Main to Houston about the same speed? MARTIN. No, sir; we were going a little faster, I would say — between probably 10 and 15 miles an hour. BALL. And then the block between Main and Elm, did the motorcade slow down? MARTIN. It slowed down just before we made the turn onto Elm Street. BALL. Let's take the President's car — what do you think the speed of the President's car was as you made that turn from Houston onto Elm? MARTIN. I believe the speed was about 4 or 5 miles an hour. BALL. What was your speed? MARTIN. Approximately the same — maybe a mile slower. BALL. Were you able to maintain your position on the two-wheeler motorcycle? MARTIN. Yes, sir; I believe I did. BALL. What is the minimum speed at which you can maintain the position of that motorcycle? MARTIN. About 2 miles per hour, I would imagine. BALL. Did the President's car pick up any speed from the corner of Houston and Elm — we'll say half way down that hill? MARTIN. No, sir; I don't recall it picking up any speed in there. BALL. They were going fairly slow? MARTIN. It may have picked up, gradually picked up, but not enough that I could notice. BALL. Did you hear any unusual noise? MARTIN. Yes, sir; I heard a shot, or what I thought at the time to be a shot. BALL. What was the position of your motorcycle at that time with reference to the President's car? MARTIN. Just to the rear of his car — on the left rear of his car. BALL. How far from the car, I'll say, to the left of the car and then how far to the rear — so I can get some idea of your position? MARTIN. I would say that my motor was 5-foot to the left and approximately 6 to 8 foot to the rear. BALL. Of the President's car? MARTIN. Of the President's car. BALL. Were you anywhere near the front end of the Secret Service car? MARTIN. Yes, sir. BALL. The car the Secret Service men were in? MARTIN. Yes; we were alongside the front end of their car, because one of the agents got off of the car after the first shot. The best I can remember — I was fairly close to him — he was the person riding on the fender of the car and the first agent from the front of the car, and I was fairly close to him when he jumped off of the car. BALL. Now, where was the motorcycle driven by Mr. Hargis, with reference to your right or to your left? MARTIN. He was to my right when we made the turn on Houston Street. BALL. At the time you heard this shot, where was MARTIN. I presume he was still to my right I don't recall seeing him after the shots. BALL. He would have been closer to the President's car than you would have? MARTIN. Yes, sir — he would have been — I would say 3 or 4 foot closer than I was. BALL. You traveled along the street about 3 or 4 feet apart from each other? MARTIN. Yes, sir — something like that BALL. When you heard the first shot, did you have any idea of the direction which the shot was coming from? MARTIN. No, sir; I didn't. I couldn't tell from which direction it was coming — any of the shots. BALL. Did you look? MARTIN. Yes, sir; I looked back to my right. BALL. After which shot? MARTIN. After the first shot. BALL. You looked to your right? MARTIN. I looked back to my right BALL. What did you look at? MARTIN. At the building on the right there. BALL. Is that the Texas School Book Depository Building? MARTIN. Yes; it is. BALL. Did you see anything? MARTIN. No, sir. BALL. As you turned to the right, did you turn your motorcycle also, or did you turn your body? MARTIN. I believe I just turned my body. I don't believe I ever turned my motor. I believe I kept my motor headed down Elm Street — west on Elm. BALL. Did you take any notice of the President after the first shot? MARTIN. Yes, sir; I looked at the President after I heard the shot and he was leaning forward — I could see the left side of his face. At the time he had no expression on his face. BALL. Then, did you hear some more shots? MARTIN. Yes, sir. BALL. How many? MARTIN. Two more shots. BALL. Did you see anything when you looked at the School Depository Building? MARTIN. No, sir — just the building. BALL. And were you able to tell — to determine or did you have any opinion, as to the direction from which the shots were coming — the last two shots — from which direction they came? MARTIN. No, sir; you couldn't tell just where they were coming from. BALL. Was there any breeze that day? MARTIN. Yes; there was. BALL. From what direction? MARTIN. I believe it was blowing out of the southwest at that particular location. It seemed like we were going to turn into the wind as we turned off of Houston onto Elm. BALL. The wind was in your face? MARTIN. Yes; the best I can recall. BALL. Now, afterward, did the motorcade pick up speed then? MARTIN. After we turned onto Houston? BALL. No; after the shots? MARTIN. Yes — after the shots we picked up speed. BALL. Did you go on to Parkland? MARTIN. Yes, sir; I did. I rode just part of the time along- side of the President's car. At times we were forced to the rear because of the pedestrians standing out on Stemmons and there just wasn't enough room to ride in there. BALL. Could you see the President? MARTIN. No, sir; I couldn't see him— immediately after the first shot I saw him and after that I couldn't see him. BALL. And did you see the Governor at all? MARTIN. No, sir. I didn't pay any attention to the Governor. BALL. Now, when you got to Parkland Hospital, what did you do? MARTIN. We pulled into the emergency entrance to Parkland Hospital. The traffic had already begun to stack up and the officers ahead of the motorcade went on down into the exit and I stopped off at the first turn into the exit about 50 or 60 yards from the entrance to the emergency and began to cut traffic so they wouldn't block the roadway down into the emergency and then we had to park cars — just a lot of people got out of their cars and it was all blocked up and we had to park cars and just generally work traffic around there. BALL. You had a white helmet on? MARTIN. Yes. BALL. Did you notice any stains on your helmet? MARTIN. Yes, sir; during the process of working traffic there, I noticed that there were blood stains on the windshield on my motor and then I pulled off my helmet and I noticed there were blood stains on the left side of my helmet. BALL. To give a more accurate description of the left side, could you tell us about where it started with reference to the forehead? MARTIN. It was just to the left of what would be the center of my forehead — approximately halfway, about a quarter of the helmet had spots of blood on it. BALL. And were there any other spots of any other material on the helmet there besides blood? MARTIN. Yes, sir; there was other matter that looked like pieces of flesh. BALL. What about your uniform? MARTIN. There was blood and matter on my left shoulder of my uniform. BALL. You pointed to a place in front of your shoulder, about the clavicle region? MARTIN. Yes, sir. BALL. Is that about where it was? MARTIN. Yes. BALL. On the front of your uniform and not on the side? MARTIN. No, sir. BALL That would be left, was it? MARTIN. Yes; on the left side. BALL. And just below the level of the shoulder? MARTIN. Yes, sir. BALL. And what spots were there? MARTIN. They were blood spots and other matter. BALL. And what did you notice on your windshield? MARTIN. There was blood and other matter on my windshield and also on the motor. BALL. Was the blood noticeable — were there large splotches? MARTIN. No; they weren't large splotches, they were small — it was not very noticeable unless you looked at it. BALL. Was the discoloration on your helmet noticeable? MARTIN. Not too much — no — as a matter of fact, there were other people around there and two more officers there and they never noticed it. BALL. At that time were you with Mr. Hargis? MARTIN. No, sir; I don't believe that he went to the hospital with us. ! believe he stopped there at the scene of the shooting. BALL. And did you ever see his helmet or his uniform or the windshield of his motorcycle? MARTIN. No, sir — I never recall seeing him again until the next day. BALL. Now, was this blood on the outside or the inside of your windshield? MARTIN. It was on the outside of my windshield. BALL. Was it on the right or left side? MARTIN. It was on the outside of my windshield. BALL. And what about the fender of the motorcycle? MARTIN. It was just in the front — right on the front just above the cowling on the motorcycle. BALL. You say that when you first heard the first shot you thought it was rifle fire? MARTIN. Yes, sir — the sharp crack of it. BALL. Are you familiar with guns? MARTIN. Yes. BALL. Did you ever fire a rifle? MARTIN. Yes, sir. BALL. Do you own a rifle? MARTIN. Yes. BALL. You have been hunting, I suppose? MARTIN. I just returned. BALL. You've shot high-powered rifles, have you? MARTIN. Yes, sir. BALL. Now, what do you think the speed of the President's car was? Give me your best estimate of the speed of the President's car when you heard the first shot? MARTIN. I would say it was under 10 miles an hour — between 5 and 10 at that particular time, about the time of the shots. BALL. You were going downhill at that time? MARTIN. Yes, sir. The best I remember — I wasn't having any trouble keeping my motor up at that time, so that it was probably between 5 and 10 miles an hour. I don't think it was any faster than 10. BALL. Did you at any time come abreast of the President's car in the motorcade? MARTIN. No, sir. BALL. Were you under certain instructions as to how far behind the car you were to keep? MARTIN. Yes, sir. BALL. What were those instructions? MARTIN. They instructed us that they didn't want anyone riding past the President's car and that we were to ride to the rear, to the rear of his car, about the rear bumper. BALL. I think that's all, Officer. This will be written up and you can look it over and sign it if you wish, or you can waive your signature and we will send it on to the Commission without it. It's your option. What would you like to do? MARTIN. It doesn't make any difference — it's the truth as I saw it that day. BALL. You just as soon waive your signature, then? MARTIN. That would be fine. BALL. All right, we'll waive your signature. MARTIN. All right. BALL. Thanks very much for coming in. MARTIN. Okay. </DIVISION2><DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2> E. Brewer - police officer</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> TESTIMONY OF E.D. BREWER The testimony of E.D. Brewer was taken at 10 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? BREWER. I do. BELIN. Would you state your name. BREWER. E.D. Brewer. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mr. Brewer? BREWER. Police officer for the City of Dallas. BELIN. How old are you? BREWER. I am 32 years old. BELIN. You go to school here in Dallas? BREWER. Yes, sir. BELIN. How far did you get through school? BREWER. I graduated from high school. BELIN. Then what did you do? BREWER. I got married and went to work for the Dallas Power & Light. About a year later I went into the U.S. Coast Guard and stayed 3 years. BELIN. Honorable discharge? BREWER. Yes. sir. BELIN. Then what did you do? BREWER. I went to work for the Dallas Police Department. BELIN. You have been working for them about 10 years now? BREWER. Since December 1954. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963? BREWER. Yes, sir. BELIN. What was your assignment that day? BREWER. I was riding solo motorcycle, in the Presidential motorcade. BELlN. What position were you in in the motorcade? BREWER. I was in the front. BELIN. By which car? Near which car? BREWER. If I remember correctly, the President's car was about — the Chief of Police was in a car immediately in front. The President's car was behind him, I believe, if I remember correctly, and I was in front of the Chief's car. BELIN. You were in front of the Chief's car? BREWER. Yes. BELIN. You were in the lead part of the motorcade? BREWER. Yes. I was the front vehicle. There was four or five of us up there in a line across the street. BELIN. Do you remember how fast you were going as you went down Main Street there towards Houston? BREWER. No, sir; not exactly. The speed of it would vary considerably according to the crowd of people on each side of the street as to how we could get through. BELIN. Did you remember how fast you were going as you turned north on Houston? BREWER. It was in my assignment to leave my position there and go ahead of the motorcade as we were approaching Houston on Main Street, and before we got to Houston Street I left. I pulled out ahead of them, and following the same route, went down to the intersection or to where the motorcade was to come onto Stemmons Freeway. BELIN. So your speed wasn't necessarily accurate with the motorcade, is that correct, sometimes? BREWER. Yes, sir; I had pulled away from the motorcade on Main Street and proceeded on down to the Stemmons Freeway. BELIN. Where were you when you heard the shot? BREWER. I never did hear any shots. BELIN. When was the first time you learned that something was wrong? BREWER. I was on Stemmons Freeway there where you come onto it, where the motorcade come onto Stemmons. Went under Stemmons and around to the right and onto Stemmons, and I was on Stemmons expressway off of my motorcycle there on the expressway when I believe I heard it on the radio first about the shooting. BELIN. Were you to stop traffic on the expressway? BREWER. Yes. I was to assist some other officers in stopping traffic on the expressway to allow the motorcade to get onto it. BELIN. So you were in the process of stopping traffic, waiting for the motorcade to come by, when you heard something on your motorcycle radio? BREWER. Yes, sir. BELIN. How far were you from the so-called underpass there, or overpass there? BREWER. I was to the north of where the railroad track goes over. Let's see, the railroad track, where the railroad tracks go over Stemmons Expressway. I was to the north of that. BELIN. Let me try and get a sketch. Officer, I just stepped out of the room to come back in and bring a map of Dallas, which I believe is similar to Commission's Exhibit 371, which I am going to mark here Deposition Exhibit A, which we will call it E.D. Brewer deposition Exhibit A. I have it marked in red pencil here, and on this map of Dallas, on one side of it in one corner of it is a section called, Downtown Dallas, and this is towards the top of the reverse side of the map. I am going to ask you to look at this map. You see the place here, it looks like Dealey Plaza, Main Street runs into that, which is Houston, then you turned north on Houston and Elm, and then you take Elm? BREWER. Left on Elm. BELIN. Left on Elm. You went under the railroad underpass there, which appears to be in green on the map, is that correct? BREWER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Then I am going to ask you to take a pencil or a ball point pen, and you might just follow the route that you took. Just mark it parallel to whatever street you took to where you ended up. BREWER. (Marking on map.) Down Elm under the railroad tracks to Stemmons, under Stemmons to the right, headed north parallel to Stemmons on that entrance way, under that T & P Railroad, and onto Stemmons Expressway, and just north of the T & P Railroad. BELIN. Now is that where you stopped your motorcycle? BREWER. Yes, sir. BELIN. I am going to put an arrow pointing to the spot that you stopped, is that correct? BREWER. Yes, that is the spot right there. BELIN. You have it marked kind of with an "X"? BREWER. To the best of my knowledge, that is right where we was at. BELIN. Was another officer there at the time when you got there? BREWER. Yes. BELIN. What were they doing? BREWER. We all proceeded to stop the traffic northbound on Stemmons. BELIN. Why were you going to do that? BREWER. So that the motorcade which was headed in that direction at that time could get onto Stemmons and wouldn't be interfered with by the rest of the traffic. BELIN. All right, where were you when you first learned of the shooting or that something was wrong? BREWER. At that location. BELIN. How did you learn about it? BREWER. I believe it was on the radio, we heard it. BELIN. What did you do? BREWER. On the police radio. Well, when it was determined that — right after we heard that on the radio, something about it on the radio, we heard that they were en route to Parkland Hospital, and immediately after that they came by us and came onto Stemmons Expressway and went by us in the direction of Parkland Hospital, the motorcade, part of it. BELIN. Then what did you do? BREWER. We heard that the shots had came from the Texas School Book Depository Building, and at that time I got on my motorcycle and proceeded back up to the Texas School Book Depository Building. BELIN. Then what did you do? BREWER. I went in the building. BELIN. You went inside the building? BREWER. Yes, sir; there was officers all around the building at the time I got there. BELIN. What did you do when you got in the building? BREWER. Well, with some other officers, we was part of the officers that was searching the building floor by floor. BELIN. Now what was your call number that day? BREWER. 137. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, which appears to be a transcript of a police log of the Dallas Police Department, you see this exhibit here? BREWER. Yes. BELIN. Your call number that day was? BREWER. 137. BELIN. I notice here that the first time there appears Call No. 137, after 12:30 is at 12:38 p.m. There is a call from 137 to 531. You want to read what it says there? BREWER. "A witness says he saw 'em pull the weapon from the window off the second floor on the southeast corner of the Depository Building." BELIN. Would that have been the second floor or the second floor from the top? BREWER. I don't know. BELIN. Do you remember any witness talking to you at all? BREWER. Yes. BELIN. Do you remember what he said? BREWER. He said that he had seen him pull a weapon from the window from that building. BELIN. Do you remember what window he said? BREWER. I don't remember specifically which window he indicated, but I immediately told that to the dispatcher and proceeded on up to the building. BELIN. I see the conversation continues on the next page. The dispatcher No. 531, to 137, "Do you have the building covered off?" And then you reply: BREWER. "I'm about three-fourths of a block away." BELIN. Is that where you were when this man— BREWER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Now from the time you first heard that something was wrong, you had taken your motorcycle and gone where? BREWER. Sir? BELIN. You were on the Stemmons Freeway when you heard that something was wrong, is that correct? BREWER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Then you went from Stemmons Freeway where? BREWER. Up to the Texas School Depository Building. BELIN. Did you stop anywhere along the way? BREWER. No, sir; the only time that I stopped was when this guy come up to me and told it to me, and then was gone. BELIN. Well, you did stop then and talk to this one individual? BREWER. Yes. BELIN. Which street were you on when you stopped? BREWER. I was proceeding back up Elm Street the wrong way on Elm. BELIN. About where were you when this one person talked that said he saw him pull the weapon in? BREWER. I was down there about the triple underpass on Elm. BELIN. You mean right under the triple underpass? BREWER. Or coming to it. BELIN. Well, coming to it? BREWER. From the west. BELIN. Would you have been on the west side of that? BREWER. Yes, right there about that curb. BELIN. Before you left Stemmons Freeway, did you look up or around to see if there was anything suspicious in that area? BREWER. We was all looking up in the railroad tracks from the west side. BELIN. Did you see anything at all? BREWER. No, sir; we saw some people coming up there, but they seemed to be up there looking. BELIN. You mean you saw people up there searching? BREWER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Did you see anybody running away? BREWER. No, sir. BELIN. See anyone acting suspiciously by himself? BREWER. No, sir. BELIN. Then you left that area and came right down the wrong way, you say, back to retrace your route, is that correct? BREWER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Then somewhere in the vicinity of the railroad underpass, you were stopped by this one individual that you reported on the radio log, is that correct? BREWER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Do you remember whether this man that you talked to was a white male or a Negro? BREWER. He was a white man, the best of my memory. BELIN. Do you remember anything else about him? BREWER. No, sir. BELIN. Did he have any camera or anything? BREWER. Not that I recall. BELIN. Now after this order to report to the School Book Depository Building, what did you do? BREWER. I went there. BELIN. What did you do when you got there? BREWER. Went in the building. BELIN. Which door? BREWER. By the front door. BELIN. Had the building been sealed off by the time you got there? BREWER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Were officers blocking everyone that was coming in, to prohibit them from coming in and going out? BREWER. Yes. BELIN. What did you do when you got there? BREWER. I went inside the building. BELIN. Where did you go? BREWER. I proceeded to assist in the floor to floor search of the building with some other officers. BELIN. What floor did you start on? BREWER. On the bottom floor. BELIN. You went up to the top? BREWER. Yes, sir. BELIN. How far up did you go? BREWER. We searched all of it before we quit. BELIN. Well, were you ever on the 6th floor? BREWER. Yes. BELIN. Were you on the sixth floor when you found anything there? BREWER. Yes, sir. BELIN. What did you find? BREWER. I was on the sixth floor when they found those spent cases from the rifle. BELIN. Where were you when they found them? BREWER. I don't know exactly. I was on the floor searching around in among some boxes that were stacked up there. BELIN. Hear anyone say anything about cartridge cases or anything? BREWER. Yes, sir. Whoever found them turned around and let it be known to one of the supervisor officers that he had found them, or that they had been found over there. BELIN. What did you do when you heard the news? BREWER. I continued searching. BELIN. Did you go and take a look at the cartridge cases? BREWER. Yes, sir. BELIN. How many cartridge cases did you see? BREWER. Three. BELIN. Where were they? BREWER. They were there under, by the window. BELIN. What window? BREWER. In the southeast corner of the building, facing south. BELIN. See anything else there at the time by the window? BREWER. Paper lunch sack and some chicken bones or partially eaten piece of chicken, or a piece of chicken. BELIN. Anything else? BREWER. A drink bottle. BELIN. What bottle? BREWER. A cold drink bottle, soda pop bottle. BELIN. Anything else? BREWER. In relation to what? BELIN. Did you see anything else in the southeast corner? BREWER. There was a paper, relatively long paper sack there. BELIN. Where was that? BREWER. It was there in the southeast corner. BELIN. Under the window? BREWER. No, sir. To the left of it. To the east of it. BELIN. To the left as you faced the window? BREWER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Did the window come right up next to the corner there, do you remember? BREWER. No, sir; it didn't come up next to the corner. It was offset. BELIN. Can you remember how far at all, or not? BREWER. No, sir; I don't remember the exact distance of it. BELIN. Was any part of the paper sack under the window, if you remember or not? That long paper sack? BREWER. No, sir. BELIN. Do you remember anything about what the sack looked like? BREWER. Well, it was assumed at the time that it was the sack that the rifle was wrapped up in when it was brought into the building, and it appeared that it could have been used for that. BELIN. Well, you mean you assumed that before you found the rifle? BREWER. Yes, sir; I suppose. That was discussed. BELIN. Do you remember anything else that was found around there or not? BREWER. Not in that particular area. BELIN. Anything found anywhere else in the sixth floor? BREWER. Yes, sir. The rifle was found on the sixth floor. BELIN. Where was that? BREWER. It was found in a northwest corner under some, in between some boxes that were stacked up there at the head of the stairs. BELIN. Were you there when they found the rifle? BREWER. Yes, sir. BELIN. How far away from the area were you when you found the rifle, if you remember? BREWER. Several feet from it. I don't remember exactly. BELIN. Did you see the rifle? BREWER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Where was it located? BREWER. It was laying down low on the floor or on the floor down between some, a very narrow space where boxes were stacked up there, and there was a space between the boxes, and it was laying down there in between it, like it had been stuck in there hurriedly, and possibly just before whoever laid it there went down the stairs. BELIN. Anything else you found of significance in the building at all or not? BREWER. Not that I recall. BELIN. What did you do the rest of the afternoon? BREWER. Well, we proceeded to search the building after that, and we spent, I don't know the exact amount of time we spent in the building after that, but when Lieutenant Jack Revill was satisfied, we went back downstairs and I went back out to my motorcycle and to my immediate superior officer and received another assignment. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with the investigation of the assassination that day? BREWER. No, sir. BELIN. What about on Saturday? BREWER. No, sir. BELIN. Sunday? BREWER. No, sir. My primary job was traffic control. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with the investigation of Officer Tippit's murder? BREWER. No, sir. BELIN. Is there anything that you can think of that might in any way be relevant to the assassination of the President or the shooting of Officer Tippit? BREWER. Not that I can think of; no, sir. BELIN. Sir, I want to thank you very much for coming on down here. You have an opportunity, if you like, to come back and read the deposition and sign it, or else you can waive the signing of it and have it sent directly to Washington, whichever you prefer. BREWER. It don't matter. Whichever you prefer. BELIN. We have no preference. BREWER. Okay, you send it on. BELIN. Do you want to waive the signing of it? BREWER. Yes, sir. </DIVISION2><DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2>C. Haygood - police officer</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> TESTIMONY OF CLYDE A. HAYGOOD Testimony of Clyde A. Haygood was taken at 9:1:3 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? HAYGOOD. I do. BELIN. Would you please state your name. HAYGOOD. Clyde A. Haygood. BELIN. What is your occupation? HAYGOOD. Dallas police officer, solo motorcycle section. BELIN. How old are you? HAYGOOD. Thirty-two. BELIN. Born in Texas? HAYGOOD. Yes. BELIN. Go to school here in Texas? HAYGOOD. Yes. BELIN. How far did you get through school? HAYGOOD. Finished high school. BELIN. Then what did you do? HAYGOOD. Went into the service. BELIN. What branch? HAYGOOD. Air Force. BELIN. How long? HAYGOOD. Four years to the day. BELIN. What did you do in the Air Force, generally? HAYGOOD. Ground crew chief, flight engineer. BELIN. Do you have an honorable discharge? HAYGOOD. Yes. BELIN. What did you do when you got out of the Air Force? HAYGOOD. Went to work for the Dallas Police Department. BELIN. What year was that? HAYGOOD. 1955. BELIN. You have been with them ever since? HAYGOOD. Other than 11 months in which I left the department. BELIN. What did you do in that 11 months? HAYGOOD. Went into a business of my own. BELIN. Then went back to the department? HAYGOOD. Yes, sir. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963? HAYGOOD. Yes. BELIN. What was your assignment that day? HAYGOOD. Solo motorcycle officer on escort of the Presidential motorcade. BELIN. You started with the motorcade at Love Field? HAYGOOD. Yes. BELIN. Went through town with him? HAYGOOD. Yes. BELIN. Where were you riding as you went through town? HAYGOOD. Riding to the right rear of the Presidential car. BELIN. How many cars back, if you remember? HAYGOOD. Well, it varied. It would be hard to say as to how many cars back. BELIN. Do you remember whether Officer M.L. Baker was riding? HAYGOOD. He was riding in front of me. BELIN. So you would be tiding several cars back, generally, from the President's car, is that correct? HAYGOOD. Yes. BELIN. Did you hear any shots at all? HAYGOOD. Yes. BELIN. Where were you when you heard the shots? HAYGOOD. I was on Main Street just approaching Houston Street. BELIN. How many shots did you hear? HAYGOOD. Three. BELIN. Were the three spaced equally distant? HAYGOOD. No. BELIN. Go ahead. HAYGOOD. No. BELIN. Was one more close than the other HAYGOOD. The last two were closer than the first. In other words, it was the first, and then a pause, and then the other two were real close. BELIN. What did you do after you heard the sounds? HAYGOOD. I made the shift down to lower gear and went on to the scene of the shooting. BELIN. What do you mean by the scene of the shooting? HAYGOOD. There on Main Street. BELIN. On Main Street? HAYGOOD. I am sorry, on Elm Street. BELIN. What position of Elm Street? HAYGOOD. Be just west of Houston Street. BELIN. By the scene of the shooting, do you mean the place where you believed the President's car was when the bullets struck? HAYGOOD. Yes. BELIN. What did you do when you got there? HAYGOOD. When I first got to the location there, I was still on Houston Street, and in the process of making a left turn onto Elm Street I could see all these people laying on the ground there on Elm. Some of them were pointing back up to the railroad yard, and a couple of people were headed back up that way, and I immediately tried to jump the north curb there in the 400 block, which was too high for me to get over. BELIN. You mean with your motorcycle? HAYGOOD. Yes. BELIN. All right. HAYGOOD. And I left my motor on the street and ran to the railroad yard. BELIN. Now when you ran to the railroad yard, would that be north or south of Elm? HAYGOOD. The railroad yard would be located at the — it consist of going over Elm Street and back north of Elm Street. BELIN. What did you do when you got there? HAYGOOD. Well, there was nothing. There was quite a few people in the area, spectators, and at that time I went back to my motorcycle — it was on the street — to the radio. BELIN. Did you see any people running away from there? HAYGOOD. No. They was all going to it. BELIN. Did you talk to any people over there or not? HAYGOOD. In the railroad yard, I talked to one of the people I presumed to be a railroad detective that was in the yard. BELIN. Had he been in the yard before or not? HAYGOOD. No. He was just coming into the area after I was. BELIN. He was coming into the area after the shooting? HAYGOOD. Yes. BELIN. Did he say anything to you, that you remember? HAYGOOD. Nothing that I remember. BELIN. Then what did you do? HAYGOOD. I went back to my motorcycle, which was sitting on Elm Street. BELIN. Then what did you do? HAYGOOD. At that time some people came up and started talking to me the shooting. BELIN. What did they say? HAYGOOD. One stated that he had seen the President when the first shot was fired, and that he definitely was hit. BELIN. Did he say where the shot came from? HAYGOOD. And I asked him about where the shots came from, and he stated that he didn't know, that he was looking at him when the first shot was fired, and that he slumped. And when the second shot was fired, he went completely out of sight. BELIN. You talked to any other witnesses there? HAYGOOD. Yes. There was another one came up who was located, at the time he stated, on the south side of Elm Street back toward the triple underpass. Back, well, it would be north of the underpass there, and said he had gotten hit by a piece of concrete or something, and he did have a slight cut on his right cheek, upper portion of his cheek just to the right of his nose. BELIN. Would he have been to the front or to the back of the Presidential car at the time of the shot? HAYGOOD. I don't know what you mean to the front or the back. BELIN. When he was standing, was he to the west or to the east of the President's car at the time of the shooting? HAYGOOD. He would be to the south of it and then west. BELIN. Southwest of it? HAYGOOD. Yes. BELIN. Talk to anyone else? HAYGOOD. And at that time, approximately, well, I was talking to him at the time this other man came up and told me that he didn't know what it was about, but he was quite sure the shot had come from this building there which he pointed out to be the Texas School Book Depository Building. BELIN. Did he say why? HAYGOOD. He said when the first shot was fired he glanced back and there was something in the building, he couldn't determine what it was, but it was just something there that he couldn't explain, but he was definite that the shots did come from there. And after talking to him and the man that was on the other side that complained he was hit by a piece of concrete from the ricochet at that time, called the dispatcher and asked for squads to cover the Texas School Book Depository Building off. BELIN. Do you remember what your number was that day? HAYGOOD. Beg your pardon? BELIN. Do you remember what number you used for calling the dispatcher that day? HAYGOOD. Yes. My original call number is 142. BELIN. I have here a Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A. which appears to be a transcript of a police radio log, and I notice that at 12:35 pan, there is a call from 142 to 531. 531 is your station headquarters? HAYGOOD. Right. BELIN. Do you want to read what you said? HAYGOOD. "I talked to a guy at the scene who says the shots were fired from the Texas School Book Depository Building with the Hertz Rent A Car sign on top." BELIN. Is that what you said? HAYGOOD. Approximately. I don't recall the exact words. BELIN. There was a response to you. What does it say there? HAYGOOD. "Get his name, address, phone number and all information you can." BELIN. Did you do that? HAYGOOD. No, I never. BELIN. What happened? HAYGOOD. Because I was told to go to the School Book Depository Building. I instructed the three different people to come to the front of the School Book Depository Building and remain there until they were talked to. BELIN. You took these people that you had with you? HAYGOOD. I did not take them, no. BELIN. You instructed them to go there? HAYGOOD. Yes. BELIN. In front of the School Book Depository? HAYGOOD. Yes. BELIN. And remain there until someone talked to them? HAYGOOD. Right. BELIN. You don't know the names of these people? HAYGOOD. No, I don't. BELIN. Do you know who talked to them at all? HAYGOOD. No; I don't. BELIN. What did you do then? HAYGOOD. At that time I went to the School Building at the rear location of it, which would be BELIN. To the back door? HAYGOOD. North side of it, yes. BELIN. Where that door leads out there to the dock? HAYGOOD. Yes; on the northeast corner there. BELIN. What did you do then? HAYGOOD. At that time I talked to the colored male that was standing at the door and asked him how long he had been there, and he said he had been there some 5 minutes or so. And I asked him if anyone had came out that door, and he said that they had not. BELIN. Do you remember his name? HAYGOOD. No; I don't. BELIN. Then what did you do? HAYGOOD. At that time, it was people, squads and all arriving at the scene, and I went on into the building, which they stayed outside, and helped them search the building. BELIN. Anything else? HAYGOOD. That is about all. BELIN. Did you search the building on the sixth floor or not? HAYGOOD. Yes. BELIN. Were you there when they found the rifle? HAYGOOD. Yes. BELIN. Were you there when they found the shells? HAYGOOD. Yes. BELIN. Where were you when the shells were found? HAYGOOD. It was on the sixth floor when the shells were found on the sixth when they found the rifle — on the fifth. BELIN. On the fifth? HAYGOOD. Sixth floor, rather, I am sorry. BELIN. Where on the sixth floor were you when the shells were found? HAYGOOD. I don't recall just exactly where it was at. It was on the floor there, though. It was just a big open floor. BELIN. Do you mean they were somewhere on that open floor? HAYGOOD. Yes. BELIN. Did you hear someone say they have shells, something like that? HAYGOOD. Yes. BELIN. Do you remember who that was? HAYGOOD. No; I don't. BELIN. What did you do then? HAYGOOD. Went up to another location there. BELIN. You saw some shells there? HAYGOOD. Yes. BELIN. Where did you see them? HAYGOOD. They were there under the window. BELIN. Which window? HAYGOOD. On the southeast corner. BELIN. South side or east side? HAYGOOD. On the southeast corner facing south. BELIN. See any paper bags or anything around there? HAYGOOD. Yes; there was a lunch bag there. You could call it a lunch bag. BELIN. Where was that? HAYGOOD. There at the same location where the shells were. BELIN. Was there a coke bottle or anything with it? HAYGOOD. Dr. Pepper bottle. BELIN. See any long bags which would be a foot or foot and a half or more long? HAYGOOD. Yes; just a plain brown paper bag with tape in the corner. BELIN. What, tape? HAYGOOD. Yes; there was just brown paper tape on it. Just a brown paper bag with paper tape. It had been taped up. BELIN. How long was that, if you can remember? HAYGOOD. The exact length, I couldn't say. It was approximately rifle length. BELIN. Would this have been right under the window, or to the east or west of the window, if you remember? HAYGOOD. As I remember, it was directly in the corner, in the southeast corner. BELIN. Well, as you remember, was the window directly in the southeast corner, or was the window a little bit to the west of that corner, if you remember? HAYGOOD. The window at that location faces south, on the southeast corner. BELIN. About how far from the east corner of the building is the window? HAYGOOD. Well, it is just approximately like that, and then the corner here. Like the window would be there, and then it would be a corner. BELIN. As far as the window in this room from that corner [indicating in room]? HAYGOOD. I wouldn't even attempt to say the approximate distance of the window from the corner. I don't know. BELIN. Well, if you don't know, that is what I want to find out. HAYGOOD. Yes. BELIN. Was the bag right under the window? HAYGOOD. It was in the corner. BELIN. Not under the window? HAYGOOD. No; it was in the corner of the building, the southeast corner. BELIN. Anything else you noticed up there? HAYGOOD. That is all. BELIN. Now, where were you when you saw the — when you heard a rifle had been found? HAYGOOD. I was still on the floor there, best as I can remember, and I went to that same location as the other one, just like I stated on the other one where the shells was found. BELIN. Do you remember where that rifle was found, roughly, or not? HAYGOOD. It was in a row of books back on the opposite corner. Be on the west side of the building, back to the northwest corner. BELIN. All right, anything else you remember while you were there? HAYGOOD. No. BELIN. What did you do after that, after the rifle was found? HAYGOOD. Well, it still wasn't determined whether the assailant wasn't still in the building even at that time, even after the rifle was found, and the search was continued in the building for a while after that. BELIN. Then what did you do? HAYGOOD. At that time after that I went to the street, went downstairs to the street. BELIN. Did you participate in any other investigation that day? HAYGOOD. No. BELIN. What about on Saturday? HAYGOOD. On Saturday I was on my way to Colorado. BELIN. So you weren't around on Sunday either? HAYGOOD. No. On Sunday when the other shooting was taking place, I was knee deep in snow in Colorado. BELIN. Is there any other information you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that in any way would be relevant to the assassination of the President or the shooting of Officer Tippit? HAYGOOD. No, nothing; I was out of town. BELIN. All right, sir. We thank you very much for your cooperation here. You have an opportunity, if you want to come down and read this deposition and sign it before it gees to Washington, or you can waive the reading and signing of it and just have the court reporter send it directly to us, whatever you want to do? HAYGOOD. It makes no difference. BELIN. It makes no difference to us either. HAYGOOD. Just waive the signing. I don't know when I can get back over here. (Officer Haygood was summoned back in a few minutes from across the street at the Republic National Bank Building to answer the following question.) BELIN. Officer Haygood, I will continue your deposition with one more question, if you would, and you are still under oath. You mentioned in your sworn deposition that you talked to about two people that you saw, and you pointed it out in your transmission at 12:35 p.m., under your Call No. 142. Is that correct? HAYGOOD. Right. BELIN. I notice on there another transmission at 12:37 p.m. Could you read what the transcript has there. HAYGOOD. Well, this part of the deposition I covered it a while ago but I gave you, is when I called to have the Texas School Book Depository covered there. That is one of the witnesses I had that believed the shot came from that location. BELIN. Could you read what you said there? HAYGOOD. It says, "Get men to cover the building, Texas School Book Depository, believe the shots came from there, facing it on Elm Street looking at the building it will be the second window from the end in the upper right hand corner." BELIN. Did you say that? HAYGOOD. Yes. BELIN. Then the transmission made to you, 531 to 142 calling, "How many do you have there?" And you made a response which is? HAYGOOD. "One guy possibly hit by a ricochet off the concrete and another seen the President slump." BELIN. Were there two more people in addition to the one that you saw? HAYGOOD. They are still the same people I was referring to back on the transmission that I made. BELIN. How many different people did you talk to? One that was possibly hit by a ricochet? HAYGOOD. Piece of concrete. BELIN. Was he the one that saw the President slump? HAYGOOD. No. BELIN. Was there someone that saw the President slump, and a third stated it was from the second window from the end in the upper right-hand corner? HAYGOOD. I don't recall how many it was. There was quite a chaos there at that time. BELIN. Do you remember if there were two or more than two? HAYGOOD. No, sir. BELIN. Do you remember anything about the description of the man that said that the shot came from the second window from the end in the upper right-hand corner? HAYGOOD. No, sir. BELIN. Do you remember if he was white or Negro? HAYGOOD. He was a white man. BELIN. Man or woman? HAYGOOD. Man. BELIN. Do you remember whether he was young or medium or old? HAYGOOD. That would be a guess on my part. I don't recall. He was just a medium age. BELIN. Do you remember if he was dressed in a suit or not a suit? HAYGOOD. Best I remember, just sports clothes. I mean, it consisted of no tie or coat. BELIN. Okay, thank you, sir. </DIVISION2><DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2>M. Baker - police officer</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> TESTIMONY OF MARRION L. BAKER The CHAIRMAN. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn please? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God? BAKER. I do, sir. BELIN. Officer Baker, would you state your legal name, please for the Commission? BAKER. Marrion L. Baker. BELIN. You are known as M.L. Baker? BAKER. That is right, sir. BELIN. What is your occupation? BAKER. With Dallas Police Department. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? BAKER. Almost 10 years. BELIN. How old are you, Officer Baker? BAKER. Thirty-three. BELIN. Where were you born? BAKER. In a little town called Blum, Tex. BELIN. Did you go to school in Blum, Tex.? BAKER. Yes, sir; I think I went to about the sixth grade. BELIN. Then where did you go? BAKER. We moved to Dallas and I continued schooling at the Roger Q. Mills School, elementary, went to junior high school, I believe it was called Storey, and then I finished high school in Adamson High School. BELIN. In Dallas? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. What did you do after you graduated from high school? BAKER. I think I got married. The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, at this time I must go to the court, we have a session of the court today hearing arguments and Mr. Dulles, you are going to be here through the morning, so if you will conduct the meeting from this time on. Excuse me, gentlemen. (At this point, the Chief Justice left the hearing room.) BELIN. After you got married, sir, what did you do. I mean in the way of vocation? BAKER. I took up a job as a sheetmetal man at the Continental Tin Co. BELIN. How long did you work for Continental? BAKER. Approximately 3 months. BELIN. Then what did you do? BAKER. At that time I quit this job and went to the Ford Motor Co. BELIN. What did you do at Ford? BAKER. Well, at that time I stayed there approximately 11 months and they laid me off and I went to the, I believe they call it Chance Vought at that time, aircraft. BELIN. What did you do at Ford, sir? BAKER. I was a glass installer, I believe that is what you would call it. BELIN. All right. When you went to this aircraft factory what did you do? BAKER. I was a material clerk. BELIN. How long did you work for them? BAKER. I didn't understand? BELIN. How long did you work for the aircraft company? BAKER. It seemed like somewhere around a year and a half. BELIN. All right, then what did you do? BAKER. At that time it was uncertain out there whether you would stay there or not, they were laying off a few of the men and I went with the neighbor's trailer company which was located in Oak Cliff there. BELIN. What did you do there? BAKER. I was, I guess you would call it a mechanic. I did a little bit of everything there. I did all the road work, and did all the delivering at that time. BELIN. How long did you stay with them? BAKER. A little over 3 years. BELIN. Then what did you do? BAKER. Then I became, I went with the city of Dallas. BELIN. With the police department? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Did you take a course of instruction for the police department? BAKER. Yes. sir; I went to the Dallas Police Academy School out there. BELIN. How long was this schooling period, approximately? BAKER. Four months. BELIN. After you were graduated from the Dallas Police Academy, did you right away become a motorcycle policeman or were you first a patrolman or what did you do? BAKER. No, sir; at first I was a patrolman and I spent some 23 months in radio patrol division. And then I volunteered solo division. BELIN. When you were in this radio car, was this a patrol car where two men would be — BAKER. That is right, sir. BELIN. And have you been a motorcycle policeman then, say, for the last 7 or 8 years? BAKER. Yes, sir; that is pretty close to it. (At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.) BELIN. By the way, you use the word solo; generally do people in police cars ride in pairs during the daytime or solos or what? BAKER. If you are talking about the squad cars at the time that I worked in the radio patrol division, most of them were two-men squads. BELIN. Were there some one-man squads, too? BAKER. Very few. BELIN. What about today, do you know what the situation is? BAKER. They still have, say, very few two-men squads and a lot of one-man squads now. BELIN. They have a lot of one-man squads now? BAKER. Yes, sir. DULLES. Is that because of a shortage of men for the jobs to cover? BAKER. Yes, sir. DULLES. Not because of the procedures? BAKER. Now, at night they try to ride them two men. BELIN. In the daytime what is the situation now? BAKER. Usually the downtown squads which I work are two men, and the outlying squads are one man. BELIN. All right. Coming down to November 22, 1963, what was your occupation on that day? BAKER. I was assigned to ride a motorcycle. BELIN. And where were you assigned to ride the motorcycle? BAKER. At this particular day in the office up there before we went out, I was, my partner and I, we received instructions to ride right beside the President's car. BELIN. About when was this that you received these instructions? BAKER. Let's see, I believe we went to work early that day, somewhere around 8 o'clock. BELIN. And from whom did you receive your original instructions to ride by the side of the President's car? BAKER. Our sergeant is the one who gave us the instructions. This is all made up in the captain's office, I believe. BELIN. All right. DULLES. Captain Curry? BAKER. Chief Curry; our captain is Captain Lawrence. BELIN. Were these instructions ever changed? BAKER. Yes, sir. When we got to the airport, our sergeant instructed me that there wouldn't be anybody riding beside the President's car. BELIN. Did he tell you why or why not? BAKER. No, sir. We had several occasions where we were assigned there and we were moved by request BELIN. On that day, you mean? BAKER. Well, that day and several other occasions when I have escorted them. BELIN. On that day when did you ride or where were you supposed to ride after this assignment was changed? BAKER. They just — the sergeant told us just to fall in beyond it, I believe he called it the press, behind the car. BELIN. Beyond the press? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Did he tell you this after the President's plane arrived at the airport or was it before? BAKER. It seemed like it was after he arrived out there. BELIN. Had you already seen him get out of the plane? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. About what time was it before the motorcade left that you were advised of this, was it just before or 5 or 10 minutes before, or what? 10 minutes before. BELIN. All right. Then the motorcade left and you rode along on a motorcycle in the motorcade? BAKER. Yes, air. BELIN. Was it a two-wheeler or a three-wheeler? BAKER. It was a two-wheeler. BELIN. You rode with the motorcade as it traveled through downtown Dallas? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. And eventually what is the fact as to whether or not the motorcade got to Main Street? BAKER. You say how fast? BELIN. No; did the motorcade get to Main Street in Dallas, was it going down Main Street at anytime? BAKER. Yes, sir; it did. BELIN. All right. I wonder if you would pick up your actions with the motorcade as it went down Main Street commencing at, say, Main and Record Streets. BAKER. Well, it was the usual escort. We were traveling about somewhere around 5 to 10 miles an hour. DULLES. There is a map right behind you. (Discussion off the record.) BELIN. Back on the record again. DULLES. Would you state exactly where you were riding? We know a good deal about this, the cars, the way they were paced. There was a car right behind the President's car that followed it, I think 6 or 7 feet right behind the President's car. BAKER. That was the Secret Service car. DULLES. That is right. Were you in that gap between the two cars or what? BAKER. No, sir; I was, it seemed to me like, there was this car. DULLES. When you say "this car" what do you mean? BAKER. That Secret Service car. DULLES. The Secret Service car right behind the President? BAKER. And there was one more car in there. DULLES. Behind that? BAKER. Yes, sir. DULLES. That was the Vice President's car, wasn't it? BAKER. Yes, sir. DULLES. And then? BAKER. There were four press cars carrying the press and I was right at the side of that last one. BOGGS. The last press car? DULLES. The last press car? BAKER. Yes, sir. DULLES. So you were roughly how far behind the President's car at this stage? BAKER. Sometimes we got, at this stage we were possibly a half block. DULLES. A half block? BAKER. Yes, sir; as I say as I turned the corner the front of it was turning the corner at Elm Street. BELIN. You mean as you were turning right from Main on to Houston Street heading north onto Houston, the President's car had already turned to the left off Houston heading down that entrance to the expressway, is that correct? BAKER. That is right. BELIN. All right. I believe — pardon me, Mr. Dulles, does that answer your question? DULLES. That answers my question. I wanted to see where he was. BELIN. You said you were going down Main Street at around Record at from 5 to 10 miles an hour? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. All right. Will you take up your trip from there, please? BAKER. As we approached the corner there of Main and Houston we were making a right turn, and as I came out behind that building there, which is the county courthouse, the sheriff building, well, there was a strong wind hit me and I almost lost my balance. BELIN. How fast would you estimate the speed of your motorcycle as you turned the corner, if you know? BAKER. I would say — it wasn't very fast. I almost lost balance, we were just creeping along real slowly. DULLES. That is turning from Main into Houston? BAKER. That is right, sir. BELIN. You turned — do you have any actual speed estimate as you turned that corner at all or just you would say very slow? BAKER. I would say from around 5 to 6 or 7 miles an hour, because you can't hardly travel under that and you know keep your balance. BELIN. From what direction was the wind coming when it hit you? BAKER. Due north. BELIN. All right. Now, tell us what happened after you turned on to Houston Street? BAKER. As I got myself straightened up there, I guess it took me some 20, 30 feet, something like that, and it was about that time that I heard these shots come out. BELIN. All right. Could you just tell us what you heard and what you saw and what you did? BAKER. As I got, like I say as I got straightened up there, I was, I don't know when these shots started coming off, I just — it seemed to me like they were high, and I just happened to look right straight up DULLES. I wonder if you would just tell us on that chart and I will try to follow with the record where you were at this time, you were coming down Houston. BELIN. Sir, if you can — I plan to get that actual chart in a minute. If we could— DULLES. I want to see where he was vis-a-vis the building on the chart there. BAKER. This is Main Street and this is Houston. This is the corner that I am speaking of; I made the right turn here. The motorcade and all, as I was here turning the front car was turning up here, and as I sat somewhere about right here DULLES. That is halfway down the first block. BELIN. No, sir; can I interrupt you for a minute? DULLES. Certainly. BELIN. Officer Baker, when we were in Dallas on March 20, Friday, you walked over with me and showed me about the point you thought your motorcycle was when you heard the first shot, do you remember doing that? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. And then we paced this off measuring it from a distance which could be described as the north curblineof Main Street as extended? BAKER. Yes, sir; that would be this one right across here. BELIN. And we paced it off as to where you thought your motorcycle was when you heard the first shot and do you remember offhand about where you said this was as to what distance it was, north of the north curbline of Main Street? BAKER. We approximated it was 60 to 80 feet there, north of the north curbline of Main on Houston. DULLES. Thank you. BELIN. Does that answer your question? DULLES. That answers my question entirely. BELIN. In any event you heard the first shot, or when you heard this noise did you believe it was a shot or did you believe it was something else? BAKER. It hit me all at once that it was a rifle shot because I had just got back from deer hunting and I heard them pop over there for about a week. BELIN. What kind of a weapon did it sound like it was coming from? BAKER. It sounded to me like it was a high-powered rifle. BELIN. All right. When you heard the first shot or the first noise, what did you do and what did you see? BAKER. Well, to me, it sounded high and I immediately kind of looked up, and I had a feeling that it came from the building, either right in front of me or of the one across to the right of it. BELIN. What would the building right in front of you be? BAKER. It would be this Book Depository Building. BELIN. That would be the building located on what corner of Houston and Elm? BAKER. That would be the northwest corner. BELIN. All right. And you thought it was either from that building or the building located where? BAKER. On the northeast corner. BELIN. All right. Did you see or hear or do anything else after you heard the first noise? BAKER. Yes, sir. As I was looking up, all these pigeons began to fly up to the top of the buildings here and I saw those come up and start flying around. BELIN. From what building, if you know, do you think those pigeons came from? BAKER. I wasn't sure, but I am pretty sure they came from the building right on the northwest corner. BELIN. Then what did you see or do? BAKER. Well, I immediately revved that motorcycle up and was going up there to see if I could help anybody or see what was going on because I couldn't see around this bend. BELIN. Well, between the time you revved up the motorcycle had you heard any more shots? BAKER. Yes, sir; I heard — now before I revved up his motorcycle, I heard the, you know, the two extra shots, the three shots. BELIN. Do you have any time estimate as to the spacing of any of these shots? BAKER. It seemed to me like they just went bang, bang, bang; they were pretty well even to me. BELIN. They were pretty well even. Anything else between the time of the first shot and the time of the last shot that you did up to the time or saw? BAKER. No, sir; except I was looking up and I could tell it was high and I was looking up there and I saw those pigeons flying around there. BELIN. Did you notice anything in either of those two buildings either on the northeast or northwest corner of Houston and Elm? BAKER. No, sir; I didn't, BELIN. Were you looking at any of those windows? BAKER. I kind of glanced over them, but I couldn't see anything. BELIN. How many shots did you hear? BAKER. Three. BELIN. All right, After the third shot, then, what did you do? BAKER. Well, I revved that motorcycle up and I went down to the corner which would be approximately 180 to 200 feet from the point where we had first stated, you know, that we heard the shots. BELIN. What distance did you state? What we did on Friday afternoon, we paced off from the point you thought you heard the first shot to the point at which you parked the motorcycle, and this paced off to how much? BAKER. From 180 to 200 feet. BELIN. That is where you parked the motorcycle? BAKER. Yes. BELIN. All right. I wonder if we could go on this plat [?], Officer Baker, and first if you could put on here with this pen, and I have turned it upside down. With Exhibit 361, show us the spot at which you stopped your motorcycle approximately and put a "B" on it, if you would. BAKER. Somewhere at this position here, which is approximately 10 feet from this signal light here on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. BELIN. All right. You have put a dot on Exhibit 361 with the line going to "B" and the dot represents that signal light, is that correct? BAKER. That is right, sir. BELIN. You, on Friday, March 20, parked your motorcycle where you thought it was parked on November 22 and then we paced off the distance from the nearest point of the motorcycle to the stop light and it was 10 feet, is that correct? BAKER. That is correct, sir. BELIN. All right. Now, I show you Exhibit 478 and ask you if you will, on this exhibit put an arrow with the letter "B" to this stoplight. BAKER. Talking about this one here? BELIN. The stoplight from which we measured the distance to the motorcycle. The arrow with the letter "B" points to the stoplight, is that correct? BAKER. That is correct, sir. BELIN. And you stopped your motorcycle 10 feet to the east of that stoplight, is that correct? BAKER. That is correct, sir. BELIN. We then paced off the distance as to approximately how far it was from the place your motorcycle was parked to the doorway of the School Book Depository Building, do you remember doing that, on March 20? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. And it appears on Exhibit 477 that that doorway is recessed, is that correct? BAKER. That is correct, sir. BELIN. Do you remember how far that was from the place your motorcycle was parked to the doorway? BAKER. Approximately 45 feet. BELIN. This same stoplight appears as you look at Exhibit 477 to the left of the entranceway to the building, is that correct? BAKER. That is correct, sir. BELIN. After you parked your motorcycle, did you notice anything that was going on in the area? BAKER. Yes, sir. As I parked here — BELIN. You are pointing on Exhibit 361 to the place that you have marked with "B." BAKER. And I was looking westward which would be in this direction. BELIN. By that, you are pointing down the entrance to the freeway and kind of what I will call the peninsula of the park there? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Toward the triple underpass. BOGGS. Where is the underpass? BAKER. The underpass is down here. This is really Elm Street, and this would be Main and Commerce and they all come together here, and there is a triple overpass. BOGGS. Right. BAKER. At this point, I looked down here as I was parking my motorcycle and these people on this ground here, on the sidewalk, there were several of them falling, and they were rolling around down there, and all these people were rushing back, a lot of them were grabbing their children, and I noticed one, I didn't know who he was, but there was a man ran out into the crowd and back. BELIN. Did you notice anything else? BAKER. Except there was a woman standing — well, all these people were running, and there was a woman screaming, "Oh, they have shot that man, they have shot that man." BELIN. All right. Now, you are on Exhibit 361, and you are pointing to people along the area or bordering the entrance to that expressway and that bit of land lying to the west and north, as to where you describe these people, is that correct? BAKER. That is correct, sir. DULLES. Would you mark where the overpass would be, right at the end of those lines, just so we get oriented on it. BELIN. I am trying to see down here. DULLES. I trust wanted to get a general idea. BELIN. On Exhibit 361, sir, it wouldn't show but it basically would be off in this direction coming down this way. The entrance to the freeway would go down here and the overpass would roughly be down here. DULLES. As far as that? BELIN. Yes, sir; I think Mr. Redlich is going to get a picture that will better describe it. DULLES. All right. BELIN. All right. Is there anything else you saw there, Officer Baker, before you ran to the building? BAKER. No, sir; not at that time. BELIN. All right. Then what did you do after surveying the situation? BAKER. I had it in mind that the shots came from the top of this building here. BELIN. By this building, you are referring to what? ?248 BAKER. The Book Depository Building. BELIN. Go on. BOGGS. You were parked right in front of the Building? BAKER. Yes, sir; ran right straight to it. BOGGS. Right. Let me ask you a question. How far away, approximately, were these people who were running and falling and so forth from the entrance to the Building? BAKER. Well, now, let me say this. From this position here. BELIN. That is position "B" on Exhibit 361? BAKER. There were people running all over this here. BELIN. And you are pointing to the street and the parkway all in front of the School Building? BAKER. You see, it looked to me like there were maybe 500 or 600 people in this area here. BOGGS. Yes. BAKER. As those shots rang out, why they started running, you know, every direction, just trying to get back out of the way. DULLES. For the record, by this area right here, you have that little peninsula between the Elm Street extension and the Building? BAKER. That is right. This little street runs down in front of the building down here to the property of the railroad tracks and this is all a parkway. DULLES. Yes. I just wanted to get it for the record. BELIN. You then ran into the Building, is that correct? BAKER. That is correct, sir. BELIN. What did you see and what did you do as you ran into the Building? BAKER. As I entered this building, there was, it seems to me like there was outside doors and then there is a little lobby. BELIN. All right. BAKER. And then there are some inner doors and another door you have to go through, a swinging door type. As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered. And I asked, I just spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was, and this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he says, "I am a building manager follow me, officer, and I will show you." So we immediately went out through the second set of doors, and we ran into the swinging door. BELIN. All right. Now, during the course of running into the swinging door, did you bump into the back of Mr. Truly? BAKER. Yes, sir; I did. BELIN. Then what happened? BAKER. We finally backed up and got through that little swinging door there and we kind of all ran, not real fast but, you know, a good trot, to the back of the Building, I was following him. BELIN. All right. Then what did you do? BAKER. We went to the northwest corner, we was kind of on the, I would say, the southeast corner of the building there where we entered it, and we went across it to the northwest corner which is in the rear, back there. BELIN. All right. BAKER. And he was trying to get that service elevator down there. BELIN. All right. What did you see Mr. Truly do? BAKER. He ran over there and pushed the button to get it down. BELIN. Did the elevator come down after he pushed the button? BAKER. No, sir; it didn't. BELIN. Then what did he do? BAKER. He hollered for it, said, "Bring that elevator down here." BELIN. How many times did he holier, to the best of your recollection? BAKER. It seemed like he did it twice. BELIN. All right. Then what did he do? BAKER. I said let's take the stairs. BELIN. All right. Then what did you do? BAKER. He said, "Okay" and so he immediately turned around, which the stairs is just to the, would be to ,the, well, the west of this elevator. BELIN. All right. BAKER. And we went up them. BELIN. You went up the stairs then? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. When you started up the stairs what was your intention at that time? BAKER. My intention was to go all the way to the top where I thought the shots had come from, to see if I could find something there, you know, to indicate that. BELIN. And did you go all the way up to the top of the stairs right away? BAKER. No, sir; we didn't. BELIN. What happened? BAKER. As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this — I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there. DULLES. Where was he coming from, do you know? BAKER. No, sir. All I seen of him was a glimpse of him go away from me. BELIN. What did you do then? BAKER. I ran on over there BOGGS. You mean where he was? BAKER. Yes, sir. There is a door there with a glass, it seemed to me like about a 2 by 2, something like that, and then there is another door which is 6 foot on over there, and there is a hallway over there and a hallway entering into a lunchroom, and when I got to where I could see him he was walking away from me about 20 feet away from me in the lunchroom. BELIN. What did you do? BAKER. I hollered at him at that time and said, "Come here." He turned and walked right straight back to me. BELIN. Where were you at the time you hollered? BAKER. I was standing in the hallway between this door and the second door, right at the edge of the second door. BELIN. He walked back toward you then? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 497 which appears to be a diagram of the second floor of the School Book Depository, and you will notice on this diagram there are circles with arrows. I want you to state, if you will, what number or the arrow approximates the point at which you were standing when you told him to "Come here". Is there a number on there at all or not? BAKER. This 24 would be the position where I was standing. BELIN. The arrow which is represented by No. 24, is that correct? BAKER. That is correct. BELIN. On Exhibit 497. When you first saw him in which direction was he walking? BAKER. He was walking east. BELIN. Was — his back was away from you, or not, as you first saw him? BAKER. As I first caught that glimpse of him, or as I saw him, really saw him? BELIN. As you really saw him. BAKER. He was walking away from me with his back toward me. DULLES. Can I suggest if you will do this, put on there where the officer was and where Lee Oswald was, or the man who turned out to be Lee Oswald, and which direction he was walking in. I think that is quite important. BELIN. Yes, sir. We are going to get to that with one more question, if I can, sir. When you saw him, he then turned around, is that correct, and then walked back toward you? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Was he carrying anything in his hands? BAKER. He had nothing at that time. BELIN. All right. Were you carrying anything in either of your hands? BAKER. Yes, sir; I was. BELIN. What were you carrying? BAKER. I had my revolver out. BELIN. When did you take your revolver out? BAKER. As I was starting up the stairway. BELIN. All right. Now, turning to Exhibit 497, if you would approximate on Exhibit 497 with a pen the point at which you saw this man in the lunch room when you told him to turn around. DULLES. Could we get first where he first saw him. BOGGS. You have that already. DULLES. I don't think you have it on the chart where he was. BELIN. This is when he first saw him after he got in the room, sir. If I can go off the record. DULLES. What I wanted to get is where he first saw him as he was standing down here, as he was going up the stairs and stopped and then in what direction he was — he seemed to be moving at that time before he saw. BELIN. Just answer the question, if you will. Where were you when you first caught a glimpse of this man? BAKER. I was just coming up these stairs just around this corner right here. BELIN. All right. You were coming up the stairs at the point on Exhibit 497 where there are the letters "DN" marking down. BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. And you saw something move through a door which is marked as what number on Exhibit 497? DULLES. Where was he when you first saw him? BAKER. At this doorway right here, this 23. BELIN. At 23. BOGGS. May I ask a couple of questions because I have to go? BELIN. Surely. BOGGS. Were you suspicious of this man? BAKER. No, sir; I wasn't. BOGGS. And he came up to you, did he say anything to you? BAKER. Let me start over. I was suspicious of everybody because I had my pistol out. BOGGS. Right. BAKER. And as soon as I saw him, I caught a glimpse of him and I ran over there and opened that door and hollered at him. BOGGS. Right. DULLES. He had not seen you up to that point probably? BAKER. I don't know whether he had or not. BOGGS. He came up to you? BAKER. Yes, sir; and when I hollered at him he turned around and walked back to me. BOGGS. Right close to you? BAKER. And we were right here at this position 24, right here in this doorway. BOGGS. Right. What did you say to him? BAKER. I didn't get anything out of him. Mr. Truly had come up to my side here, and I turned to Mr. Truly and I says, "Do you know this man, does he work here?" And he said yes, and I turned immediately and went on out up the stairs. BELIN. Then you continued up the stairway? BOGGS. Let me ask one other question. You later, when you recognized this man as Lee Oswald, is that right, saw pictures of him? BAKER. Yes, sir. I had occasion to see him in the homicide office later that evening after we got through with Parkland Hospital and then Love Field and we went back to the City Hall and I went up there and made this affidavit. BOGGS. After he had been arrested? BAKER. Yes, sir. DULLES. Could you tell us anything more about his appearance, what he was doing, get an impression of the man at all? Did he seem to be hurrying, anything of that kind? BAKER. Evidently he was hurrying because at this point here, I was running, and I ran on over here to this door. BELIN. What door number on that? BAKER. This would be 23. BELIN. All right. BAKER. And at that position there he was already down here some 20 feet away from me. BOGGS. When you saw him, was he out of breath, did he appear to have been running or what? BAKER. It didn't appear that to me. He appeared normal you know. BOGGS. Was he calm and collected? BAKER. Yes, sir. He never did say a word or nothing. In fact, he didn't change his expression one bit. BELIN. Did he flinch in anyway when you put the gun up in his face? BAKER. No, sir. DULLES. There is no testimony that he put the gun up in his face. BAKER. I had my gun talking to him like this. DULLES. Yes. BELIN. How close was your gun to him if it wasn't the face whatever part of the body it was? BAKER. About as far from me to you. BELIN. That would be about how far? BAKER. Approximately 3 feet. BELIN. Did you notice, did he say anything or as there any expression after Mr. Truly said he worked here? BAKER. At that time I never did look back toward him. After he says, "Yes, he works here," I turned immediately and run on up, I halfway turned then when I was talking to Mr. Truly. BOGGS. That question about time I would like to establish. How long would you say it was from the time that you first heard the shots until that episode occurred? BAKER. We went back and made two trial runs on that, and — BELIN. Was that on Friday, March 20? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. All right. BAKER. And the first run we made it was a minute and 30 seconds, and — DULLES. Will you say from what time to what time, from the last shot? BAKER. From the last shot. BELIN. The first shot. DULLES. The first shot? BAKER. The first shot. We simulated the shots and by the time we got there, we did everything that I did that day, and this would be the minimum, because I am sure that I, you know, it took me a little longer. DULLES. I want to get clear in my mind and for the record, it started at the first shot and when did it terminate, when you saw Oswald? BAKER. When we saw Oswald. DULLES. When you saw Oswald? BAKER. Yes, sir. DULLES. And that time is how much? BAKER. The first run would be a minute and 30 seconds, and then we did it over, and we did it in a minute and 15 seconds. (At this point, Representative Boggs left the hearing room.) BELIN. Were we walking or running when we did this? BAKER. The first time we did it a little bit slower, and the second time we hurried it up a little bit. BELIN. Were we running or walking, when we moved, did we run or walk? BAKER. From the time I got off the motorcycle we walked the first time and then we kind of run the second time from the motorcycle on into the building. BELIN. All right. When we got inside the building did we run or trot or walk? BAKER. Well, we did it at kind of a trot, I would say, it wasn't a real fast run, an open run. It was more of a trot, kind of. BELIN. You mentioned the relationship between what we did on March 20 and what actually occurred on November 22. Would you estimate that what we did on March 20 was the maximum or the minimum as for the time you took? BAKER. I would say it would be the minimum. BELIN. For instance, on March 20 did we do anything about trying to get through any people on the front steps of the building at all? Did we slow down at all for that? BAKER. No, sir. BELIN. Did we slow down at all on March 20 for the time it took you to look over the scene as to what was happening in the area down Elm Street and the Parkway? BAKER. No, sir. BELIN. Later did we go to the southeast corner of the sixth floor? BAKER. Yes, sir; we did. BELIN. With the stopwatch? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Did we make any or do any stopwatch tests about any route from the southeast corner of the sixth floor down to the lunchroom? BAKER. Yes, sir; we made two test runs. BELIN. All right. Do you remember what the route was? BAKER. Yes, sir; we started on the sixth floor on the east side of the building. BELIN. All right. BAKER. We walked down the east wall. BELIN. We started at that particular corner? BAKER. Yes, sir; we started in the southeast corner. BELIN. All right. We walked down the east wall, you say? BAKER. That is right. BELIN. All right, then where did we go? BAKER. To the north wall and then we walked down the north wall to the west side of where the stairs was. BELIN. All right, we walked from the southeast corner to the northeast corner? BAKER. That is right. BELIN. Then along the northeast corner, around the elevators, do you remember who was with us when we did this? BAKER. Yes, sir. There was, it seems to me like his name was John — anyway, he was a Secret Service man. BELIN. John Howlett. BAKER. John Howlett. That is right, sir. BELIN. Did Mr. Howlett simulate anyone putting a gun in any particular place? BAKER. Yes, sir; he did. BELIN. And then what did we do when we got to the — where did he do that, do you remember? BAKER. That would be as we approached the stairway, there were some cases of books on the left-hand side there. BELIN. All right. And Secret Service Agent Howlett went over to these books and leaned over as if he were putting a rifle there? BAKER. That is right, sir. BELIN. Then what did he do? BAKER. Then we continued on down the stairs. BELIN. To the lunchroom? BAKER. That is right, sir. BELIN. Do you remember how long that took? BAKER. The first run with normal walking took us a minute and 18 seconds. BELIN. What about the second time? BAKER. And the second time we did it at a fast walk which took us a minute and 14 seconds. BELIN. You saw the stopwatch on all of these timing occasions when it was started and when it was stopped, is that correct? BAKER. Yes, sir; I did. BELIN. Now, I want to go back to the sixth floor a minute with Mr. Dulles' questions. DULLES. Can we go off the record here one moment? (Discussion off the record.) BELIN. On the record. Officer Baker, when you related your story earlier you said that as you ran back on the first floor you first ran to the elevator shaft, is that correct? BAKER. That is right, sir. BELIN. And you stopped at the east or the west elevator door? BAKER. That would be the west. BELIN. All right. This was on the first floor, and did you look up the elevator shaft at that time? BAKER. Yes, sir; at that time I did. BELIN. This was while Mr. Truly was calling for the elevator? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Was there any kind of a gate between you and the elevator shaft? BAKER. Yes, sir; there was. BELIN. Wood or metal, do you remember? BAKER. It is wood. BELIN. What did you see when you looked up the elevator shaft? BAKER. At that time I thought there was just one elevator there, you know, one big freight elevator, and to me they looked like they were up there, I didn't know how many floors in that building but you could see them up there, it looked like just at that time, I thought it was just one, when I looked up there, and anywhere from three to four floors up. BELIN. Was either elevator moving at the time or — pardon me, was there any elevator moving at the time you saw and looked up the shaft? BAKER. No, sir. BELIN. Did you hear any elevator moving? BAKER. No, sir. BELIN. Mr. Truly pushed the button, I believe you said. BAKER. That is right, sir. BELIN. When he pushed the button did any elevator start moving? BAKER. No, sir. BELIN. When you looked up the elevator shaft did it appear as if there was one elevator covering the complete shaft or did it appear there was one elevator that you saw covering half of the shaft? BAKER. Like I say, I thought it was one elevator there and it was covering the whole deal up there so to me it appeared to be one. BELIN. It didn't appear to be two elevators on different floors? BAKER. No, sir. BELIN. All right. Now, you got up to floor number two at the time and you did that with the stairs. BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. At the time you got up there was there any elevator on floor number two that you can remember, if you can remember? Maybe you cannot remember, I don't know. BAKER. Evidently — now, I didn't look, evidently it wasn't because it seemed to me like the next floor up Mr. Truly said let's take the elevator. BELIN. At some higher floor after that? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. All right, if we can go off the record for a moment here. (Discussion off the record.) BELIN. Officer Baker, first of all, handing you what the court reporter has marked as Exhibit 498, I would like you to state if you know whether or not this appears to be the door leading from the second floor hallway into the vestibule going into the lunchroom. BAKER. Yes, sir; it does. BELIN. Is this the door through which you glanced as you came around the stairs coming up from the first floor? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. What did you see that caused you to turn away from going up to the third floor? BAKER. As I came out of that stairway running, Mr. Truly had already gone on around, see, and I don't know, as I come around — DULLES. Gone on around and up? BAKER. He had already started around the bend to come to the next elevation going up, I was coming out this one on the second floor, and I don't know, I was kind of sweeping this area as I come up, I was looking from right to left and as I got to this door here I caught a glimpse of this man, just, you know, a sudden glimpse, that is all it was now, and it looked to me like he was going away from me. BELIN. All right. Then what did you do? BAKER. I ran on up here and opened this door and when I got this door opened I could see him walking on down. DULLES. Had he meanwhile gone on through the door ahead of you? BAKER. I can't say whether he had gone on through that door or not. All I did was catch a glance at him, and evidently he was — this door might have been, you know, closing and almost shut at that time. BELIN. You are pointing by "this door" to the door on Exhibit 498? BAKER. Yes, sir. DULLES. You mean you might have seen him as he was opening and going through the door almost? BAKER. Well, to me it was the back of it. Now, through this window you can't see too much but I just caught a glimpse of him through this window going away from me and as I ran to this door and opened it, and looked on down in the lunchroom he was on down there about 20 feet so he was moving as fast as I was. DULLES. How far were you as you left the stairwell, the stairway — BAKER. Yes, sir. DULLES. From that door through which you eventually went through and then saw Oswald? BAKER. I would say that was approximately 15, 20 feet something like that. BELIN. All right. On Exhibit 499 is this a picture of the lunchroom? BAKER. Yes, sir; it is. BELIN. Do you know what direction the camera is pointing to take this picture? BAKER. It would be pointed eastward. BELIN. All right. I see a coke machine off on the left. When you saw Oswald after you got to this doorway inside the lunchroom, had he gone as far as the coke machine? BAKER. I didn't notice the coke machine or any item in the room there. All I was looking at was the man, and he seemed to be approximately 20 feet down there from me. BELIN. As you got to the doorway which on Exhibit 497 is marked as number, what number is that, you are referring to this number 24 here? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Now, with relation to Exhibit 497 perhaps you can try to trace your route as you came out from the stairway, as to the route you took and the point you were when you first caught a glimpse of some movement through that window or door? BAKER. At the upper portion of this stairway leading to the second floor, I was just stepping out on to the second floor when I caught this glimpse of this man through this doorway. BELIN. Do you want to put a spot there, with the letter "B" at the point you believe you were when you were looking through that door? You put the letter "B" on Exhibit 497 when you first saw the movement. BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. And then you, from that point, could you kind of trace your route to the — DULLES. Could I ask one question before you ask this question, and this is a bit of a leading question, and think carefully. If Oswald had been coming down the stairs and going into the lunchroom would he have been following the course insofar as you saw a course, that he — that you saw him follow? BAKER. Yes, sir. The reason I say that, this hallway to the right BELIN. By the right you mean the hallway that goes to the — this is — BAKER. This is a hallway right here. BELIN. It is a hallway that has the number 27 on it? BAKER. Yes, sir; from what I understand these are offices in there. DULLES. Yes. BAKER. And he had no business in there and the lunchroom would be the only place that he would be going, and there is a door out here that you can get out and to the other part of the building. BELIN. I think Mr. Dulles' question relates to whether or not any person would have taken a stairway or elevator to have gotten to that point, is that correct? DULLES. Yes; that is correct. I am clear as you come up the stairs you take a certain course you would go into the lunchroom. BAKER. Yes, sir. DULLES. I am not quite clear as to where you would end up on the second floor as you come down the stairs, is it the same point? BELIN. Mr. Dulles, if you will look on Exhibit 497, the stairway appears to be the same stairway. You see the letter, the arrow, 21, points to the stairway going up to the third floor which, of course, would be the same stairway going down from the third floor and on the building. DULLES. You would cross if you were going up and down, you would cross right there at the same point? BELIN. Yes, sir. DULLES. And if a man were going up the stairs and then going to the lunchroom and then coming down the stairs and going to the lunchroom, he would be approximately following the same course from the time he got off the stairs and went into that room before you get to the lunchroom. BELIN. Yes, sir. (Discussion off the record.) BELIN. Officer Baker, you had just marked on Exhibit 497 point "B" where you thought you were at about the time you caught a glimpse of something, either through a door or through the window in the door marked 23, is that correct? BAKER. That is correct, sir. BELIN. Could you trace your route from point "B" to the doorway 23, if you would, sir. BAKER. I ran right straight across here and through this doorway and this is approximately where, I would say 23 here, is approximately where I looked through this lunchroom and saw a man on down here. BELIN. All right. I am going to put an arrow at that point on Exhibit 497, and this arrow in pen, I am going to put a "B-I" and. at that arrow which is just to the left of the circle with the number 24 in it you say you then looked through the doorway and saw a man in the lunchroom, right? BAKER. Yes, sir; walking away from me. BELIN. Walking away from you. And then where did you move from point "B-I"? BAKER. I moved on to this position 24 right here in this doorway. BELIN. All right. I am going to put — you have put an "X" there, and I am going to put that on Exhibit 497 as an arrow pointing to it, with "B-2". Is this where you stood when you called to the man to come back to you? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Did you move from that time until the man came up to you? BAKER. As I called, I remember moving forward a little bit and meeting him right here in this doorway. BELIN. As you called you say you remembered moving forward and meeting him right in the doorway which would be marked with the arrow with number 24 on it on Exhibit 497, is that right? BAKER. That is right, sir. BELIN. After you got there, did you move until the man came up to you? BAKER. No, sir. BELIN. Did you notice what clothes the man was wearing as he came up to you? BAKER. At that particular time I was looking at his face, and it seemed to me like he had a light brown jacket on and maybe some kind of white-looking shirt. Anyway, as I noticed him walking away from me, it was kind of dim in there that particular day, and it was hanging out to his side. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 150, would this appear to be anything that you have ever seen before? BAKER. Yes, sir; I believe that is the shirt that he had on when he came — I wouldn't be sure of that. It seemed to me like that other shirt was a little bit darker than that whenever I saw him in the homicide office there. BELIN. What about when you saw him in the School Book Depository Building, does this look familiar as anything he was wearing, If you know? BAKER. I couldn't say whether that was — it seemed to me it was a light-colored brown but I couldn't say it was that or not. DULLES. Lighter brown did you say, I am just asking what you said. I couldn't quite hear. BAKER. Yes, sir; all I can remember it was in my recollection of it it was a light brown jacket. BELIN. Are you referring to this Exhibit 150 as being similar to the jacket or similiar to the shirt that you saw or, if not, similar to either one? BAKER. Well, it would be similar in color to it — I assume it was a jacket, it was hanging out. Now, I was looking at his face and I wasn't really paying any attention. After Mr. Truly said he knew him, so I didn't pay any attention to him, so I just turned and went on. BELIN. Now, you did see him later at the police station, is that correct? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Was he wearing anything that looked like Exhibit 150 at the police station? BAKER. He did have a brown-type shirt on that was out. BELIN. Did it appear to be similar to any clothing you had seen when you saw him at the School Book Depository Building? BAKER. I could have mistaken it for a jacket, but to my recollection it was a little colored jacket, that is all I can say. DULLES. You saw Oswald later in the lineup or later BAKER. I never did have a chance to see him in the lineup. I saw him when I went to give the affidavit, the statement that I saw him down there, of the actions of myself and Mr. Truly as we went into the building and on up what we are discussing now. (At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.) BELIN. Officer Baker — DULLES. I didn't get clearly in mind, I am trying to check up, as to whether you saw Oswald maybe in the same costume later in the day. Did you see Oswald later in the day of November 22d? BAKER. Yes, sir; I did. DULLES. Under what circumstances? Don't go into detail, I just want to tie up these two situations. BAKER. As I was in the homicide office there writing this, giving this affidavit, I got hung in one of those little small offices back there, while the Secret Service took Mr. Oswald in there and questioned him and I couldn't get out by him while they were questioning him, and I did get to see him at that time. DULLES. You saw him for a moment at that time? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Officer Baker, you then left the second floor lunchroom with Mr. Truly, is that correct? BAKER. That is right, sir. BELIN. How long did you stay in the lunchroom after Truly identified this person as being an employee? BAKER. Just momentarily. As he said, "Yes, he works here," I turned and went on up the stairs. BELIN. All right. Do you have any time estimate as to the period of time that elapsed between the time that you first got to the head of the stairs and saw some movement through that first doorway and the time you left to go back up to the flight of stairs going to the third floor? BAKER. I would say approximately maybe 30 seconds, something like that. It was a real quick interview, you know, and then I left. BELIN. All right. As you left, did you notice whether or not the man in the lunchroom did anything or started moving anywhere? BAKER. No, sir. As, I left he was still in the position that he was when — ever I was facing him. BELIN. You then went where? BAKER. I immediately turned and went on, started on, up the stairways. BELIN. All right. After going up the stairways, do you know what numbered floor it was — I will ask you this, did you take the stairway all the way to the top? BAKER. No, sir; we caught that elevator, it seemed like we went up either one or two floors, and Mr. Truly said "Let's take the elevator, here it is." BELIN. Did you take an east or west elevator? BAKER. We took the east elevator. BELIN. Now, the nearest elevator to you when you got off a flight of stairs would have been the east or the west? BAKER. The west. BELIN. When you got off the flight of stairs Mr. Truly said, "Here is an elevator," did the west elevator appear to be there? BAKER. I didn't notice. I was looking around over the building at the time he said, "Let's take the elevator" and I just followed him on around. BELIN. You went to an east elevator? BAKER. That is right, sir. BELIN. How far did it appear you rode up the elevator? BAKER. It was a short ride. We just, either went one or two floors. I couldn't remember. I was still looking at the floors, you know, as we went up. BELIN. As you rode up on the elevator, did you notice whether or not you passed the elevator on the west side? BAKER. No, sir; I didn't notice. BELIN. Did you notice or hear anything to indicate that the elevator on the west side might have been moving? BAKER. No, sir. BELIN. Did you take the east elevator as far as it would go? BAKER. Yes, sir; we did. BELIN. And then what did you do? BAKER. We had to walk up another flight of stairs to get up to the top floor. BELIN. To get up to the roof? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. When you got off on the seventh floor or the top floor — BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not the other elevator was there? BAKER. No, sir; I didn't. BELIN. You didn't notice. You got off the east elevator and then what did you do? BAKER. We walked up the flight of stairs to the top. BELIN. To the top. What did you do when you got to the top? BAKER. We went out on the roof. BELIN. What did you do on the roof? BAKER. I immediately went around all the sides of the ledges up there, and after I got on top I found out that a person couldn't shoot off that roof because when you stand up you have to put your hands like this, at the top of that ledge and if you wanted to see over you would have to tiptoe to see over it. DULLES. If you look right behind you, Officer, you will see a picture and you might point out what the top wall that is shown on that photograph of the building is how high? BAKER. Well, it is about 5 feet. I know I had to put my hand on top of it and tiptoe to see over it. BELIN. All right. Mr. Dulles is referring to the picture of the School Book Depository building on Exhibit 362 and in demonstrating before the Commission as to where your hands were about how high are they in relation to your shoulders or mouth or chin or what-have-you? BAKER. Approximately 5 feet. BELIN. Your hands are 5 feet high? Did you go over just to one roof side or to all sides of the roof? BAKER. No, sir; we came out at this northwest corner back behind this sign here. BELIN. All right. BAKER. And then I ran, kind of running walk, went all the way around. First I glanced over this side here, because the last thing I heard here on the radio was the chief saying, "Get some men up on that railroad track." BELIN. Did you hear that on your police radio? BAKER. Yes, sir; that was the last thing I heard. BELIN. As you were getting off your motorcycle? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. All right. COOPER. I didn't hear what he said he heard on the radio? BAKER. I heard Chief Curry, the chief of the police over there, say, "Get some men over on the railroad track." I think everyone at that time thought these shots came from the railroad track. BELIN. By "everyone" do you include you, too? BAKER. No sir,. I had it — I was in a better position due to the wind and you know under it, that I knew it was directly ahead, and up, and it either had to be this building here or this one over here. BELIN. You are pointing to either the first building, you are pointing to the School Book Depository Building, and the second one you are pointing to is the one across the street. When you heard this announcement on your radio was it while you were parking your motorcycle? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Go ahead, if you would, please. You are on the roof now. BAKER. Well, as I looked over here, all these people, there were people all over this railroad track. BELIN. You are saying as you are looking over the south and over the west? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. All right. BAKER. Then after I looked to see what was going on down there, and then I figured out that he wouldn't have shot from that ledge he would have shot from this sign or this old room, building back here on the back side. BELIN. All right. Now, you are pointing to Exhibit 362 to the sign on the top of the School Book Depository Building, the Hertz sign, and some kind of a structure on the northeast corner of the building, is that correct? BAKER. That is correct. BELIN. Officer Baker, when you talk, I wonder if you would look at me, we might be able to hear a little bit better. Would you tell us what else you did? BAKER. As I finished going all around this building here and then I came to this sign and I looked up there to see if I could find anybody hiding upon, say, 10 feet up there and I came back down, I seen that nobody would shoot from up there. He wouldn't have no place to hold on. BELIN. By that you are referring to climbing the ladder to climb up the sign, is that correct? BAKER. Yes, sir; this large Hertz sign here. BELIN. On the top of the School Book Depository Building on Exhibit 362. All right. Then what did you do? BAKER. Then I came back down and I went and checked this building right here. It is an old deserted room there of some type. BELIN. Some kind of a shack on the northeast comer of the building? BAKER. That is right, sir. BELIN. Out there. What did you see when you saw that shack? BAKER. As I approached it, and looked under it, there wasn't anything under it, and you could tell that pigeons had been roosting there for sometime. BELIN. All right. There were indications that pigeons had been roosting there? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Then what did you do? BAKER. No indications that anyone would be around there. BELIN. Did you see any pigeons there as you approached it? BAKER. No, sir. They had all — at the time I kind of glanced and they were still flying around in the sky up there. BELIN. What did you do? COOPER. You referred to pigeons, did you see some pigeon droppings? BAKER. Yes, sir. COOPER. Had they been disturbed in any way? BAKER. No, sir. BELIN. Then what did you do? BAKER. At that time I went on back. Mr. Truly was standing over here on this northwest comer and we descended on the stairs there. BELIN. You went from the stairs to the roof to where, to the top floor of the building? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the top floor of the building? BAKER. We walked on down one more flight of stairs and then we caught the same elevator back down. DULLES. The top floor was the seventh floor, is it not? BAKER. Well, you have one flight of stairs going from the top floor on up. DULLES. Yes. BAKER. And then we caught the elevator back down, the same elevator that we took up. BELIN. When you referred to one flight of stairs, are you referring to the flight of stairs from the roof to the top floor that you took or the flight of stairs from the top floor to the next to the top floor? BAKER. Well, there are two flights of stairs there. The one from the roof down to the top floor and then there is another one there. BELIN. When you took the elevator back did you take it from the top floor down or from the next to the top floor down? BAKER. That elevator to me, it didn't go to the top floor, it goes to the next to the top. BELIN. Did you take it as far as it went? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. When did you take an elevator down or did you take the stairs down? BAKER. We took the elevator down. BELIN. Did you take the same elevator down you took up or did you take a different elevator down? BAKER. We took the same one. BELIN. When you went to take that elevator going back down did you notice whether or not the other elevator was there? BAKER. I didn't notice. It would be to my back and I was looking out forward. BELIN. It would be to your back from where you came off the stairs going to the roof? BAKER. Are you talking about when we got on the elevator? BELIN. When you got on the elevator to make the return trip? BAKER. There wasn't one there whenever we come around out of the stairway, you know, to get on you know we had to get on the east side instead of just stepping over on the west elevator. BELIN. Officer Baker, I am going to hand you what the court reporter, what the Commission reporter, has marked as Exhibit 507 which purports to be a diagram of the seventh floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building and on that diagram you will see at the top the marks of two elevators and then, what looks to be the south, a stairway marked "Ladder to the roof." BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not this stairway marked "Ladder to the roof"' is the stairway that you took to go to the roof? BAKER. Yes, sir; it would be. BELIN. All right. Now, when you got off the elevator which you took up to the top floor, which you said was the east elevator — BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Did you have any occasion to notice whether or not the west elevator was on this top floor? BAKER. No, sir; I didn't notice it. BELIN. You didn't notice whether it was or whether it was not? BAKER. That is right, sir? BELIN. When you got back down from the roof to this top floor, did you have any occasion to notice whether or not the west elevator was on that top floor or not? BAKER. No, sir; I still didn't look at the elevator. I was following Mr. Truly and every time I had a chance I would look around over the building. BELIN. You would look over the floor itself rather than the other elevator? BAKER. That is right. BELIN. You then got on the elevator to go on back down? BAKER. That is correct. BELIN. And I believe you said it was the east elevator, is that correct? BAKER. That is correct. BELIN. How far did you take the east elevator down? BAKER. As we descended, somewhere around — we were still talking and I was still looking over the building. BELIN. As the elevator was moving? BAKER. Yes, sir; downward. BELIN. All right. BAKER. The next thing that I noticed was Inspector Sawyer, he was on one of those floors there, he is a police inspector. DULLES. City of Dallas Police? BAKER. Yes, sir. And he was on, I really didn't notice which floor he was on, but that is the first thing I saw as we descended how this freight elevator, you know, it has got these picket boards in front of it and it has got it open so far, and it seemed to me like we stopped for a moment and I spoke to him and I told him that I had been to the roof, and there wasn't anything on the roof that would indicate anybody being up there, and then we started on down. BELIN. Did you stay on the elevator while you spoke to him? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Do you remember what floor it was that you spoke to him on or how many floors down that you went from the top before you saw him? BAKER. No, sir; not at that time. It seemed to me like it was on either the third or the fourth floor. BELIN. Do you remember about how long you stayed on the roof? BAKER. It was a little over 5 minutes. BELIN. When you continued moving on the elevator after you talked to Inspector Sawyer how far did you go on the elevator? BAKER. We went to the, I believe it would be the first floor there. BELIN. All right. You got off the elevator then? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Did you leave Mr. Truly or did you stay with him? BAKER. I left Mr. Truly there. BELIN. Then what did you do? BAKER. I immediately went on out. I was with this motorcade and I went right on straight through the front door and got on my motorcycle and tried to find out what happened to the motorcade. BELIN. Officer Baker, when you left the building had the building been sealed off or not? BAKER. Yes, sir; there was an officer at the front door. BELIN. The officer at the front door, was he stopping people from coming in and out or what? BAKER. I assumed that he was but I, you know, just went on out. BELIN. All right. When you got to the first floor ou the east elevator did you notice whether the west elevator was there? BAKER. No, sir; I didn't. BELIN. Was there anything else that you observed in or about the Texas School Book Depository Building at that day that you haven't told us about that you can think of right now? BAKER. No, sir; I can't think of anything else. BELIN. From the time you went into the building how long did it take you to go up and make your searches and come on down until the time you left, to the best of your recollection? BAKER. I would say that I was in there approximately 15 minutes. BELIN. And you left there right at the time that you left Mr. Truly on the first floor? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. In this time sequence you mentioned you were on the roof more than 5 minutes, that could be 25 or 30 or 10 or 15 or what? BAKER. This, to my recollection, it seemed like I shouldn't have stayed up there over 10 minutes anyway, if that long. BELIN. So you would say somewhere between 5 and 10 minutes? BAKER. I just ran around up there looking for something; I didn't find it and then we came on down. BELIN. Mr. Dulles, are there any questions that you have? DULLES. I have no more questions. Have you any questions? BELIN. Off the record. (Discussion off the record.) BELIN. Officer Baker, I believe you testified that you later saw Lee Harvey Oswald at the police station of the homicide office, is that correct? BAKER. That is correct, sir. BELIN. Was this later on that same day? BAKER. Yes, it was. BELIN. Would you state whether or not the man who was shown to you in the police station as Lee Harvey Oswald was or was not the same man that you saw and encountered on the second floor lunchroom of the Texas School Book Depository Building on that day? BAKER. He was the same man. BELIN. Is there anything else about his clothes that you can remember or his dress that you haven't talked about here? BAKER. No, sir; I can't. DULLES. Do you recall whether or not he was wearing the same clothes, did he appear to you the same when you saw him in the police station as when you saw him in the lunchroom? BAKER. Actually just looking at him, he looked like he didn't have the same thing on. BELIN. He looked as though he did not have the same thing on? BAKER. He looked like he did not have the same on. COOPER. Did you say when you first saw this man walking away from you in the lunchroom, walking away in the opposite direction, that you said for him to come toward you. BAKER. Yes, sir. COOPER. Did he turn around? BAKER. Yes, sir; he did. DULLES. The officer testified he had a pistol in his hand at that time, Officer Baker? COOPER. He did have a pistol in his hand? BAKER. I had the pistol. DULLES. Officer Baker had a pistol in his hand. COOPER. I see. Did he move toward you? BAKER. Yes, sir; he did. COOPER. Was there anything about his appearance that was unusual? BAKER. No, sir. Whenever I called to him, well he turned around and I had my gun in my hand, you know, and he started walking back towards me and I walked to meet him, and I met him at that doorway over there and about that time Mr. Truly who had started on up the stairs and then he came back, he found that I wasn't with him, came back, and walked up there aside of him and just about the time we met all three of us got there together and I turned to Mr. Truly and I asked him, and I said, "Do you know this man? Does he work here?" And he said, "Yes," and that is whenever I turned and went on up the stairs. At that time he didn't say a word, he didn't change the expression or nothing on him. DULLES. You testified, I believe, that he did not seem to be out of breath? BAKER. That is right, sir. COOPER. He did not show any evidence of any emotion? BAKER. No, sir. COOPER. Did you see anyone else while you were in the building, other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly? BAKER. On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us. DULLES. Were they white men? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Officer Baker, we have an exhibit here 362 showing the first floor of the School Book Depository Building, and the top part of the exhibit is south. It is a little bit upside down from the usual top being north. You will notice here the stairway in the front of the building. BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. And then there is a glass swinging door which I believe is shown there. Could you mark the point at which you believe you were when you called out for someone to tell you where the stairway or elevator was? BAKER. Is that the steps on the outside and this is the — BELIN. These are the steps on the outside, this is the door, the first door and this is kind of the main lobby here, below the words "Main Entrance." BAKER. Well, as you come up the steps, there is a glass door here in front of the building. BELIN. Pardon me, this will be the recessed glass door right here swinging? BAKER. All of this is the lobby. BELIN. Yes, that is all the lobby. BAKER. OK. This is the first door that you open to get in. BELIN. Yes. BAKER. And this is the lobby. BELIN. Yes. BAKER. And then you have another set of glass doors. BELIN. There is another door right here, yes. BAKER. And on through this one you have a swinging door, a little old counter-type door that swings — BELIN. This would be the swinging door which would be to the west of the room marked "Mr. Truly's office" on Exhibit 362? BAKER. That is right, sir. BELIN. Where would you have been when you were yelling would someone tell you about the stairs or the elevator? BAKER. At this point approximately where the "T" is here. BELIN. You would be where the "T" is? BAKER. I was standing inside the front doors and I wasn't too far from this door here. BELIN. That would be the, what I call the, middle set of doors as you come in, between the front set of doors and the doors by the side of Mr. Truly's office, that little half door there. BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. And you were at the point as marked on Exhibit 362 approximately where the word "T" is. BAKER. This lobby, to the best of my recollection, it seemed to me like, would — I would say, about 15 feet wide or something like that. BELIN. Yes, BAKER. And I had come in there, oh, say, 4 or 5 feet whenever I said, "Where is the stairway or the elevator?" BELIN. I wonder if you could show us on Exhibit 362 the route that you took from the first floor to the time you went to the elevator? BAKER. I came through the first set of doors, the second set and this second little old counter-type here, and kind of ran through that, from the south-west comer here through this swinging door. BELIN. That is by Mr. Truly's office? BAKER. Yes, sir; to the northwest corner here. BELIN. By the west elevator. BAKER. West elevator, that is right. BELIN. Would this be roughly along the pen line already in there, would you estimate? BAKER. Yes, sir; that is pretty close to it. BELIN. You then went to the east elevator where Mr. Truly first pushed the button for the elevator? BAKER. Yes, sir. DULLES. Any further questions? Mr. Attorney General, do you have any questions? CARR. There is just one. There were many people around there at that time, and the rest of the day DULLES. You are talking now about the Depository Building? CARR. Yes, sir; at the time he has been testifying about. Did you have occasion during the rest of the day either in passing visits or idle conversation or anything of that type with any of the people that were there at the time who might have seen something or told you some theory they had about what might have happened? BAKER. Not until last Friday morning. Chief Lunday, which is my chief in traffic, called me and asked me to go down to this Texas Depository Building, and I had — I have worked traffic outside several times but I never did go inside or talk to any of the employees. CARR. I am referring to the people who were out there at the time of the shooting. Did you have a chance during that day to talk with any of them or did you overhear any conversations that might be material to the investigation here? BAKER. The only ones that I talked to would be the solo officers who were around him. DULLES. Around whom? BAKER. Around the President's car at that time. DULLES. What was the nature of those conversations? BAKER. Well, we just were discussing, each one of us had a theory, you know where, how it happened, and really none of us knew how it happened, it just happened, and where they was at in place, you know, in reference to the car, would be about the only thing they could say, and at the time the first shot they didn't know where the shot came from. The second shot they still didn't know, and then the third shot some of them over to the left-hand side, the blood and everything hit their helmets and their windshields and then they knew it had to come from behind. BELIN. Say this again, Officer Baker. When you say some were on the left-hand side? BAKER. Yes, I believe Officer B.J. Martin — BELIN. Is he a motorcycle policeman? BAKER. Yes, sir; he is. BELIN. On a one- or two-wheeler or three-wheeler? BAKER. He is a solo motorcycle, two-wheeler. BELIN. Where was he riding at this time? BAKER. He was on the left front. BELIN. Of what? BAKER. There were five motorcycle officers in front. There were four, two on each right side behind. BELIN. When you say in front and behind of what vehicle? BAKER. We are referring to the President's car. BELIN. All right. He was on the front and to the left of the President's car. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is right. BELIN. What did he say to you about blood or something? BAKER. Like I say, we were talking about where the shot came from, and he said the first shot he couldn't figure it out where it came from. He turned his head backward, reflex, you know, and then he turned back and the second shot came off, and then the third shot is when the blood and everything hit his helmet and his windshield. BELIN. Did it hit the inside or the outside of his windshield, did he say? BAKER. It hit all this inside. Now, as far as the inside or outside of the windshield. I don't know about that. But it was all on the right-hand side of his helmet. BELIN. Of his helmet? BAKER. On his uniform also. BELIN. On his uniform. BAKER. That is right. BELIN. And he was riding to the left of the President and you say ahead of the President? BAKER. On the left-hand side. DULLES. But a little ahead of him? BAKER. Yes, sir. They were immediately in front of the car. DULLES. Any other conversations — pardon me, does that answer your question? CARR. I was more interested, sir, in that, of course, but with the laymen around there. There was a lot of talk and theorizing at the time and I was just wondering what he heard from any of the laymen, or just ordinary onlookers of the parade, did you get a chance to talk to any of them? BAKER. At that time I didn't get a chance to talk to any of those. At that time I immediately got on my motorcycle and went on down to the Trade Mart down there where he was set up for the luncheon and at the time I got on there I didn't stop until here come a sergeant and a medical examiner and they wanted me to take them code 3 to Parkland, at the time I got there we stood around the President's car there and kept the crowd back, and that is where I stayed until, I think we left after they loaded the body, we went to Love Field and stayed there for, say, 30 minutes or something like that. BELIN. Did you talk to — pardon me, sir, does that take care of your questions? CARR. Yes, sir; thank you very much. DULLES. Any further questions? CARR. No; thank you, sir. BELIN. Did you talk to any of the other officers who were in or about the President's vehicle at the time of the shooting? BAKER. Yes, sir; I talked to several of them and all of them had kind of had the same story, you know. It had to come from above and behind. BELIN. When did you talk to these officers, like Officer Martin? BAKER. That was — I didn't talk to him until we got back to the city hall, which we got off, we were supposed to get off at 3 o'clock that day, we got off around 4 the same time, they called us all in together. BELIN. What other officers did you talk to and what did they say that you remember? BAKER. I talked to Jim Chaney, and he made the statement that the two shots hit Kennedy first and then the other one hit the Governor. BELIN. Where was he? BAKER. He was on the right rear of the car or to the side, and then at that time the chief of police, he didn't know anything about this, and he moved up and told him, and then that was during the time that the Secret Service men were trying to get in the car, and at the time, after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped. BELIN. The President's car? BAKER. Yes, sir. Now, I have heard several of them say that, Mr. Truly was standing out there, he said it stopped. Several officers said it stopped completely. DULLES. You saw it stop, did you? BAKER. No, sir; I didn't see it stop. DULLES. You just heard from others that it had stopped? BAKER. Yes, sir; that it had completely stopped, and then for a moment there, and then they rushed on out to Parkland. BELIN. Officer Baker, did this Officer Chaney say anything else about, for instance, where he thought the source of the shots was? BAKER. Not — he knew they came from behind him but he didn't know where. He said from down there they was kind of going down that hill and said that shot, the sound of it, you couldn't tell just exactly where it came from. BELIN. How did he know it came from behind then? BAKER. Because he was riding from behind, and whenever it hit the President, he said he would see him fall. BELIN. Now, you are giving a motion now, did he see him fall backwards first or forwards or when you say fall what do you mean by that? BAKER. Well, he just said, when they hit he kind of fell, so I assumed he went to the left of him. BELIN. All right. Did any other officer say anything to you about what he saw or thought what happened? BAKER. I talked to several of them but I can't remember exactly, you know, just what their story was. BELIN. Was there anyone you talked to who thought the shots came from the front? BAKER. No, sir; not except that the chief of police that is the only one. Now, that, like I say, that is the last thing I heard over that radio is "Get some men up on that railroad." Now, that could mean they either came from the side, which is due north, or right across in front of him. You know — BELIN. Well, apart from the statement you testified to that the chief of police made over the radio about the underpass, was there any policeman or patrolman who was in the motorcade who in any way indicated to you that the shots came from the front? BAKER. No, sir. COOPER. I would like to ask a couple of questions. I think you said when you went inside the depository you saw no one except the man you later identified as Oswald, and Mr. Truly. There were two people sitting down on the first floor. BAKER. As I entered that depository building, I was — people were running toward you, I don't know whether they worked there or whether they were just trying to get out of the way. DULLES. From inside the building? BAKER. No; from the street in. As I ran in I was pushing them aside and running through them, and some way, Mr. Truly got from my back to my front. Now, he said he was right behind me. I never did see him until I got in and asked the question of where the stairs was, so evidently whenever I went in the door why he came on in. There were several people coming in as I, you know, came in, there were several in front of me and also around my sides and my back. And it seemed to me like a double door deal. COOPER. As you went up on the elevator could you see out of the elevator onto floors? BAKER. Yes, sir. The best that I could, that is the reason I wasn't paying too much attention to the elevator I was looking around all those floors. COOPER. Did you see anyone? BELIN. When you say up on the elevator, he didn't get on the elevator until he had got up on the stairs. COOPER. I am aware of that. BAKER. I was still looking. COOPER. You went up on the second floor by stairs? BAKER. Yes, sir. COOPER. Then you got on the elevator. BELIN. No, sir; he didn't get on the elevator until the fifth floor. COOPER. Anyway, as you walked up the stairs could you see into each floor space as you passed from floor to floor? BAKER. Partly. Now, this building has got pillars In it, you know, and then it has got books, cases of books stacked all in it. And the best that I could, you know, I would look through there and see if I could see anybody. COOPER. Did you see anyone? BAKER. No, sir. COOPER. When you looked? BAKER. Not from the second floor on up. COOPER. As you approached the building by motorcycle, did you notice whether anyone was looking out of the windows of the Texas School Book Depository? BAKER. Yes, sir. Those windows, I would say a number of them were open and I tell you, to the best of my recollection, I scanned those windows, but I can't recall anybody looking out of them, you know. I looked at all them buildings so much and there were people looking out of every one of them, every doorway and every window, and I really was looking high more at the roof of it than I was anything, and I really didn't see nothing in the windows. COOPER. I may be repeating because I missed the first part of his testimony. DULLES. Go ahead. COOPER. But when you heard the shot, you said later you saw some pigeons fly up. BAKER. Yes, sir. COOPER. What was the sequence of time between the time you saw the flight of the pigeons and you heard the shot? BAKER. As I got that motorcycle straightened up, and I hadn't gone just a very few feet there, it didn't seem like, you know, I went very far, but it is possible I went, we figured maybe 80, 60 to 80 feet there, and I looked up, as the shots started, I immediately looked up, you know. I was already facing ahead and I just kind of raised, I sighted up, and while I was looking up, those other two shots came off, and as I come up, I noticed those pigeons start to fly up there, but I really didn't see which, there were so many of them couldn't tell which building they were coming from but I know they were all over. Say you were facing north like Houston they were in the sky facing north in the street. COOPER. Which way were the pigeons going? BAKER. They were just coming up, you know. COOPER. I assume you are a hunter, aren't you, from what you said? BAKER. Yes, sir; I try to be. COOPER. Have you seen birds in flight when they are suddenly startled? BAKER. Yes, sir. COOPER. Well, was this the character of the flight of pigeons you saw? BAKER. Yes, sir; that is the way it seemed to me, that these birds, you know, just with a sudden uprush. COOPER. Did you have any notice of anyone saying there might have been a shot from the railroad until you heard the statement over the radio just before you entered the School Book Depository? BAKER. No, sir; that was the only words that I remember that was said over the radio from the time the shots rang out until I started parking that motorcycle, and when I came off of it I heard those words. COOPER. Could you see the railroad yards? BAKER. Yes, sir; I could see it — this track ran under this triple underpass to my left, all out behind this building. COOPER. Did you see anything there which attracted your attention other than — BAKER. Nothing except — COOPER. Crowd? BAKER. There were people all over this track, over this triple underpass, and people just standing all over this sloping bank there, you know, going up. COOPER. Were there any officers that you saw near the School Book Depository when you went in? BAKER. There was an officer working traffic on that corner, and Officer J. W. Williams was — DULLES. By that corner you mean the corner of Elm and Houston? BAKER. That is right, sir. J. W. Williams who is a motorcycle officer, was, I thought, over on the left-hand side of me, and he was right with me, but as I ran in this building, I found out that I was by myself. I didn't know where anybody went. COOPER. Did you later see J. W. Williams, Officer Williams? BAKER. Yes, sir. He stated that when the motorcade left with the President, and they immediately went code 3 to Parkland, why he was up there with him and he went up there with him. And I later saw him out there at Parkland. DULLES. You testified, I believe, that you did not yourself see the President's car stop. You just were told it was stopped by several other officers? BAKER. Let me say, as I parked that motorcycle, I looked down there, well, the car had swerved to the left, and I saw this man run out into this crowd and back. I don't know who he was but I saw that and I saw these people following him, and all these pressmen jumping out of their cars and running down the street toward him. BELIN. Officer Baker, do you know from where this man ran off into the crowd at all or not? BAKER. Apparently he came from one of the cars right there by the President's car. He was, he came from the motorcade, inside the motorcade out to the sidewalk and then back. BELIN. All right. You mentioned the fact that you had gone or come back from deer hunting just prior to November 22, 1963. BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. What kind of a weapon did you have when you went deer hunting? BAKER. I had one of these .30-06, I believe the Springfield type. BELIN. Is it a rifle? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Automatic or bolt action? BAKER. Bolt action. BELIN. How long have you owned a rifle, any rifle? BAKER. This particular one I have had it approximately 7 years. BELIN. Have you had much experience to go hunting? BAKER. Yes, sir. Every year. BELIN. Every year you go deer hunting? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. You have had occasion to hear shots from your rifle? BAKER. That is right, sir. BELIN. From other rifles? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Did this in any way influence your decisions as to what you did on November 22 as you heard the first sound? BAKER. Yes, sir; it did. BELIN. In what way did it influence them? BAKER. To me it was immediately a rifle shot. A lot of the solo officers said they thought it was the backfire from a motorcycle because you can make those motorcycles pop pretty loud. But that instant it just, I don't know, it just hit me as a rifle shot. COOPER. How long have you been firing a rifle? BAKER. Say, from the time I was about 17 years old. COOPER. Have you fired other types of rifles other than the one you used? BAKER. Yes, sir; the first one I had was a 30-30 Marlin lever type. COOPER. Have you ever seen the rifle that is alleged to have belonged to Lee Oswald? BAKER. I saw it, a photograph of it, in the newspaper. COOPER. Do you know what kind of rifle it is? BAKER. Not offhand. I heard it was some foreign make gun. Most of the boys down there at the police department have had dealings with foreign type guns, rifles, you know of this kind, and a lot of them sell them, and a lot of them rework them, you know, make them into deer rifles. COOPER. What were the characteristics of the report that you heard, three reports, which made you believe that it was a shot from a rifle? BAKER. Well, they were too distinct, you know, to be — I have heard that pop from that motorcycle and I have heard rifle shots, and to me there was just a difference in them. BELIN. Officer Baker, did it appear to you that these sounds that you heard were from the same rifle or from possibly more than one rifle? BAKER. I would say they was from the same rifle. BELIN. Did it appear that the sounds all came from the same source? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. With regard to the closeness of these sounds together, how fast they came, did it appear that it came from or that it could have come from a weapon that had to be operated by bolt action as opposed to a semiautomatic or an automatic weapon? BAKER. It seemed to me like you could either fire a semi or bolt action in about the same time. BELIN. Have you had occasion to use a bolt action rifle and fire shots quickly one after the other? BAKER. Yes, sir; I have. BELIN. Did it appear that, from what you heard, that from your experience you could have operated your own bolt action rifle as quickly as those shots came? BAKER. Yes, sir. COOPER. If you made any judgment, what was the length of time from the time you heard the first report until you heard the third? BAKER. I would say just about as fast as you could bolt one of those bolt action rifles which wouldn't be — I don't believe it would be over 3 seconds apart. DULLES. Over what? BAKER. Three seconds apart. BELIN. From each shot? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Three seconds from the first to the second and another 3 seconds from the second to the third? BAKER. Yes, sir. BELIN. You are saying not over 3 seconds? BAKER. Not over 3 seconds. DULLES. Any further questions? Thank you very much, Officer Baker. Your testimony has been very helpful. (At this point Senator Cooper left the hearing room.) </DIVISION2><DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2>D. Powers affidavit - JFK aide</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> AFFIDAVIT OF DAVID F. POWERS The following affidavit was executed by David F. Powers on May 18, 1964. PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY AFFIDAVIT DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, ss: I, David F. Powers, make the following affidavit concerning my knowledge of the events of November 21 and 22, 1963. I traveled to Texas with the Presidential party on November 21, 1963, on AF-1. After a stop in Houston, we spent the night in Fort Worth, Texas. On the evening of November 21st, we were discussing the size of the crowd in the Rice University Stadium at Houston, and the President asked me how I thought it compared with the crowd the last time he was there. I said that the crowd was about the same as the one which came to see him before but there were 100,000 extra people on hand who came to sea Mrs. Kennedy. President Kennedy then made a comment to Mrs. Kennedy to the effect that she was a great asset on the trip and that seemed to make her happy, although at that particular moment she was very tired, having spent many hours that day traveling in the plane and on motorcades. The next day we proceeded on to Dallas and arrived at Love Field at approximately 11:30 a.m. The President and Mrs. Kennedy were in high spirits and as they were leaving the plane I jokingly remarked to the two of them that they looked like Mr. and Mrs. America and that they should not both wave in the same direction as it would bo too much for anyone to receive all that attention at once. They were the first to leave the Presidential plane (AF-1) and were greeted by Vice President and Mrs. Johnson (whose plane had already arrived at Dallas), along with other members of the Dallas reception committee. President and Mrs. Kennedy then went over to greet the airport crowd which was standing behind an iron fence. I was assigned to ride in the Secret Service automobile which proceeded immediately behind the President's car in the motorcade. That Secret Service follow-up automobile was an open car with two Special Agents in the front seat, two Special Agents in the rear seat and two Special agents on each of the two running boards. I sat in the jump seat on the right side of the car and Kenneth O'Donnell sat in the jump seat on the left side of the car. The crowd in Dallas was very friendly and very enthusiastic. In my opinion it was twice as large as the crowd that was present when Mr. Kennedy campaigned in Dallas in 1960. Kenneth O'Donnell and I were observing the size and disposition of the crowd in order to evaluate the local political situation. President Kennedy was sitting on the extreme righthand side of his automobile, with his arm extending as much as two feet beyond the right edge of the car, and Mrs. Kennedy was seated on the extreme left of the back seat. They were seated at the opposite ends of the back seat in order to give their full attention to the crowds on each side. As we proceeded through Dallas the motorcade slowed down on a number of occasions, but I do not believe it ever stopped. When we passed through the heart of Dallas, the crowds were about ten deep. We then turned off of Main Street onto Houston and made the sharp swing to the left up Elm Street. At that time we were traveling very slowly, no more than 12 miles an hour. In accordance with my custom, I was very much concerned about our timing and at just about that point I looked at my watch and noted that it was almost exactly 12:30 p.m., which was the time we were due at the Trade Mart. I commented to Ken O'Donnell that it was 12:30 and we would only be about five minutes late when we arrived at the Trade Mart. Shortly thereafter the first shot went off and it sounded to me as if it were a firecracker. I noticed then that the President moved quite far to his left after the shot from the extreme right hand side where he had been sitting. There was a second shot and Governor Connally disappeared from sight and then there was a third shot which took off the top of the President's head and had the sickening sound of a grapefruit splattering against the side of a wall. The total time between the first and third shots was about 5 or 6 seconds. My first impression was that the shots came from the right and overhead, but I also had a fleeting impression that the noise appeared to come from the front in the area of the triple overpass. This may have resulted from my feeling, when I looked forward toward the overpass, that we might have ridden into an ambush. At about the time of the third shot, the President's car accelerated sharply, with the follow-up car driving right behind it. Mrs. Kennedy climbed onto the back of the car. Perhapa she may have been looking for help and perhaps she really didn't know what she was doing. I think Special Agent Clinton Hill saved her life by climbing up on the back of the car and pushing her into the back seat because she probably would have fallen off the rear end of the car and would have been right in the path of the other cars proceeding in the motorcade. We proceeded at a high rate of speed to Parkland Hospital. Upon arriving at the emergency entrance, I raced over to where President Kennedy lay and Special Agent Hill and I, along with Special Agent Kellerman, placed him on a stretcher. The three of us and Special Agent Greer pushed him into the emergency area. I stayed with Mrs. Kennedy the entire time at the hospital. She went in and out of the emergency room and when she wasn't in the emergency room, she sat on a chair right outside the emergency room door. I believe Ken O'Donnell went to call the Attorney General as soon as we arrived at the hospital. I accompanied the President's body and Mrs. Kennedy on the trip from the hospital to the airport. Some seats were removed from a rear compartment of the President's plane and the casket was placed there. On the trip back to Washington, Mrs. Kennedy refused to change her clothes or eat, but did sip some coffee. Upon arriving at Andrews Air Force Base, Mrs. Kennedy declined to take a helicopter to Bethesda Naval Hospital but instead chose to ride with President Kennedy's body in the hearse. Kenneth O'Donnell and I stayed with Mrs. Kennedy and the other members of the President's family at Bethesda until the early hours of the morning on November 23, 1963. Signed the 18th day of May 1964 at Washington, D.C. DAVID F. POWERS. </DIVISION2><DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2>R. Jackson - press photographer</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> TESTIMONY OF ROBERT HILL JACKSON The CHAIRMAN. All right, gentlemen, are we ready? Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, Mr. Jackson? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? JACKSON. I do. The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please. Mr. Specter will conduct the examination. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? JACKSON. Robert Hill Jackson. SPECTER. And what is your address, Mr. Jackson? JACKSON. 4030 Sperry. SPECTER. What city is that located in? JACKSON. Dallas, Tex. SPECTER. How long have you lived at that address, please? JACKSON. Since September of 1963. SPECTER. And of what State are you a native? JACKSON. I am a native of Dallas, Tex. SPECTER. Have you lived in Dallas all your life? JACKSON. Yes, sir. SPECTER. What is your occupation at the present time? JACKSON. Staff photographer for the Dallas Times Herald. SPECTER. How long have you been so employed? JACKSON. Since August of 1960. SPECTER. Will you outline for us briefly — The CHAIRMAN. 1950 or 1960? JACKSON. 1960. SPECTER. Will you outline for us briefly your educational background, please? JACKSON. I attended Highland Park High School and then Southern Methodist University, where I studied for a business degree, and I did not finish. I lack about 8 hours of finishing, of getting a degree. SPECTER. What year did you leave the university? JACKSON. 1957. SPECTER. How were you occupied between the time you left the university and the time you started to work for the newspaper? JACKSON. I did some freelance photography work for a while, over a year, until I went into the service on the 6 month's plan through my National Guard unit, and I was a photographer there in the Army, on-the-job training, and then after I was released from the Army I did freelance work, I guess for about a year, until I got the job at the Herald. SPECTER. How old are you at the present time? JACKSON. Twenty-nine. SPECTER. What is your marital status? JACKSON. I am married. SPECTER. Do you have children? JACKSON. One child. One girl 15 months today. SPECTER. Going back to November 22, 1963, by whom were you employed at that time? JACKSON. Dallas Times Herald. SPECTER. What was your assignment on that specific day? JACKSON. I was assigned to the motorcade to meet the President, Love Field, and go to the Trade Mart and that was the extent of it, cover the parade, I mean the motorcade and the speech. SPECTER. Were you assigned to take pictures? JACKSON. To take pictures, yes, sir. SPECTER. Did you meet the President at Love Field? JACKSON. Yes, sir. SPECTER. And did you take photographs for your newspaper at Love Field? JACKSON. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Describe briefly your activities at Love Field on the morning of November 22, please. JACKSON. Well, we got there, I guess, 30, 40 minutes early. SPECTER. At about what time would that have been? JACKSON. I have to think to remember exactly what time, around 9, I guess, 9 to 9:15, I believe. And I took pictures there. There were other photographers from our paper there, our chief photographer. And we just took shots of the crowd, and waited for the President to arrive. And then when he did arrive, our chief photographer left and went directly to the Trade Mart and I got into the motorcade to ride to town. SPECTER. Do you know exactly which car you were in in the motorcade? JACKSON. We counted up, and it is either the seventh or eighth car. We said eighth car from the President, from the lead car. SPECTER. When you say we counted up, whom do you mean? JACKSON. The photographers in the car. As we left Love Field, we were trying to figure how far back we were and we all decided it was the eighth car. SPECTER. Can you reconstruct that count for us which provided the basis for your conclusion that you were in the seventh or eighth car. For example, how many cars ahead of you was the President's car or the Vice President's car, if you can recollect, please. JACKSON. Let me think a minute. I know there was a photographer's car directly in front of us which I believe had some of the local press. It was a convertible. Then in front were, I believe, two or three cars carrying the press, the White House press, and then President Johnson, I guess would be in the next car, and then the President in the lead car, or the next car, and I believe there was another car in the lead. SPECTER. So as you recollect the scene there was the lead and immediately behind the lead car, whose car? JACKSON. The President's, I believe. SPECTER. And then immediately behind the President's whose car? JACKSON. The Vice President's. SPECTER. And immediately to the rear of the Vice President's car? JACKSON. Press vehicles and I was told it was the White House press, two or three cars. SPECTER. And then there was one car filled with photographers? JACKSON. Directly in front of us. SPECTER. Between your car and the cars which you believe to have been filled with White House newsmen? JACKSON. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Wasn't there a Secret Service car directly behind the President's car? JACKSON. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Between it and the Vice President's car? JACKSON. Yes, sir; that is right SPECTER. Wasn't there a Secret. Service car immediately behind the Vice President's car, if you know? JACKSON. There must have been. That is what I can't recall is which was which in there I knew the White House press was in there but I didn't know how many cars. I am sure there were Secret Service cars, yes, sir. SPECTER. As you were proceeding along in the motorcade, were you within sight of the President's automobile? JACKSON. At times. When he was — when we could not get a clear view of it because of the photographers in the car ahead of us who were sitting up on the back of the seat just like we were, we did not have a clear view of the car at all times. SPECTER. As you proceeded along approximately how far behind the President's car were you, expressed either in cars, block lengths or in any way that is convenient for you? JACKSON. Well, I would say approximately a block, average city block, maybe closer at times. SPECTER. Mr. Jackson, I show you a photograph which has been marked heretofore as Commission Exhibit No. 347, and ask you to look at it for a moment, and see if you can identify what that photograph depicts. JACKSON. Yes, sir; this is the scene of the assassination, parade route, Main and Houston, left on Elm. SPECTER. Now, which street did the Presidential motorcade take coming on to that scene which you have described as the assassination scene. JACKSON. They were on Houston. SPECTER. And before Houston what street were they on? JACKSON. Main Street. SPECTER. What direction were they proceeding on Main Street? JACKSON. West. SPECTER. Now without reference to the photograph, will you tell us what happened as the motorcade proceeded west on Main Street? JACKSON. Well, on Main, as we neared Houston Street everyone was more or less in a relaxed state in our car, because we were near the end of the route, I guess, nothing unusual happened on Main Street. The final block on Main, before we turned on Houston I was in the process of unloading a camera and I was to toss it out of the car as we turned right on Houston Street to one of our reporters. SPECTER. Had that been set up by prearrangement? JACKSON. Yes, sir. And that I did as we turned the corner, and when — it was in an interval and as I threw it out the wind blew it, caught it and blew it out into the street and our reporter chased it out into the street and the photographers in our car, one of the photographers, was a TV cameraman whom I do not recall his name, and he was joking about the film being thrown out and he was shooting my picture of throwing the film out. SPECTER. At this point could you tell us, to the best of your recollection, precisely who was with you in the car at that time? JACKSON. Jim Underwood from KRLD-TV station, Tom Dillard, chief photographer for the Dallas Morning News, and me, and then two newsreel cameramen who I know by sight but I don't know their names. One is with WFAA which is the Dallas Morning News station, and I believe the other was channel 11, I believe. SPECTER. Can you position those people in the automobile for us with respect to where each was sitting? (At this point Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) JACKSON. Tom Dillard and Jim Underwood were in the front seat with the driver. SPECTER. Can you identify who the driver was? JACKSON. No, sir. SPECTER. But he was a sixth individual separate and apart from the five heretofore described? JACKSON. Yes, sir. And in the back seat were the two I know by sight but I can't remember the names. And I was on the right side of the car. SPECTER. On the right side of which seat? JACKSON. Back seat, sitting up on the back of a seat. SPECTER. What kind of a car was it, sir? JACKSON. I believe it Was a Chevrolet convertible. SPECTER. Top down? JACKSON. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Were you carrying one camera or more than one camera? JACKSON. Two cameras. SPECTER. And was one camera loaded at the time you rounded the corner of Main and Houston? JACKSON. Yes, sir; and one was empty. SPECTER. Was it from the camera which was empty that you had taken the roll of film which you have just described? JACKSON. Yes, sir. SPECTER. All right. Will you now proceed to tell us what happened as you rounded the corner of Main and Houston, please? JACKSON. Well, as our reporter chased the film out into the street, we all looked back at him and were laughing, and it was approximately that time that we heard the first shot, and we had already rounded the corner, of course, when we heard the first shot. We were approximately almost half a block on Houston Street. SPECTER. Will you identify for me on Commission Exhibit 347, precisely as possible, where your automobile was at the time you heard the first shot? JACKSON. Approximately right here, I would say the midpoint of this building. Approximately where we heard the first report. SPECTER. No, will you mark in a black "X" on 347 the spot where your car was at the time you heard the first shot? JACKSON. Right here approximately. And as we heard the first shot, I believe it was Tom Dillard from Dallas News who made some remark as to that sounding like a firecracker, and it could have been somebody else who said that. But someone else did speak up and make that comment and before he actually finished the sentence we heard the other two shots. Then we realized or we thought that it was gunfire, and then we could not at that point see the President's car. We were still moving slowly, and after the third shot the second two shots seemed much closer together than the first shot, than they were to the first shot. Then after the last shot, I guess all of us were just looking all around and I just looked straight up ahead of me which would have been looking at the School Book Depository and I noticed two Negro men in a window straining to see directly above them, and my eyes followed right on up to the window above them and I saw the rifle or what looked like a rifle approximately half of the weapon, I guess I saw, and just as I looked at it, it was drawn fairly slowly back into the building, and I saw no one in the window with it. I didn't even see a form in the window. SPECTER. What did you do next? JACKSON. I said "There is the gun," or it came from that window. I tried to point it out. But by the time the other people looked up, of course, it was gone. and about that time we were beginning to turn the corner. SPECTER. Which corner were you beginning to turn? JACKSON. Houston onto Elm. SPECTER. I now show you a photograph marked as Commission Exhibit No. 348 and ask you if you can identify what that depicts? JACKSON. This is the School Book Depository. This is the window the two colored men were looking out of. This is the window where the rifle was. SPECTER. Will you mark the window where the rifle was with an "A" and would you please mark the window where you have identified the men below with a "B." (Witness marking.) SPECTER. Referring to your mark of "A," the photograph will show that you have marked the window on the sixth floor with the mark being placed on the window on the westerly half of the first double window. JACKSON. I am sorry. This window here on the very end was the window where the weapon was. I am sorry, I just marked the double actually this is the rifle window right here. SPECTER. Will you take the black pencil again and draw an arrow — before you start to mark, hear the rest of the question — as precisely as you can to the exact spot where you saw what you have described as the rifle. (Witness marking.) SPECTER. Was the window you have just marked as being the spot from which the rifle protruded, open when you looked up? JACKSON. Yes. SPECTER. What is your best recollection as to how far open it was at that time? JACKSON. I would say that it was open like that window there, halfway. SPECTER. Indicating a window on the sixth floor of the westernmost portion of the building open halfway as you have described it. My last comment, as to the description of your last window, is only for the purpose of what you have said in identifying a window to show how far open the window was. JACKSON. Yes. SPECTER. Which you heretofore marked with an arrow, correct? JACKSON. Yes, sir. Also in that window I could see boxes, corrugated boxes on the left portion which would be my left, of the window, of the open window. SPECTER. How many boxes could you see? JACKSON. I couldn't tell. It just seemed like a stack of boxes. SPECTER. How high were the boxes stacked? JACKSON. Maybe two is all I saw. They were stacked, I believe they were as high as the window was open, halfway up the window. SPECTER. What is your best recollection of the size of those boxes which you say you saw? JACKSON. Maybe like that, that wide. SPECTER. Indicating approximately 3 feet wide? JACKSON. Three feet or a little less maybe. SPECTER. What was the height of those boxes? JACKSON. I would say high enough to hide a man. Let's say, between 5 and 6 feet high, I would say to the best of my recollection. From the angle I was looking at it, I would say they were 5 feet high at least. SPECTER. That is each box would be 5 feet high? JACKSON. No; the stack, the stacked boxes. SPECTER. Could you see how many boxes were stacked up to reach a total height of 5 to 6 feet? JACKSON. No, sir. SPECTER. Now, were you able to see anyone in front of those boxes? JACKSON. No, sir. SPECTER. Whether or not you could identify anyone, could you see even the form or outline of the man? JACKSON. No, sir. It looked to me like the man was over to the side of the window because the rifle was at quite an angle to me. SPECTER. Which side of the window? JACKSON. Well, from the position of the rifle it would be the corner of the building, the east. It would be to the right of the window from my view. SPECTER. Which direction was the rifle pointing? JACKSON. West. To my left. SPECTER. Was it pointing in a straight westerly direction or was it pointing at an angle from the building. JACKSON. It was at an angle from the building. I am not — well, let's see — well, it wouldn't be directly west. SPECTER. What was the general line of direction of the pointing of the rifle? JACKSON. Well, directly down the street. SPECTER. And by down the street you are pointing out what street? JACKSON. Down Elm Street toward the triple, toward the underpass. SPECTER. Was it pointed as you have indicated at the angle which Elm Street traverses heading toward the triple underpass? JACKSON. Yes, sir. And the rifle was pointing slightly down. SPECTER. Did you at any time in this sequence observe the President's automobile? JACKSON. As we turned the corner — or we stopped where the intersection, actually we stopped before we began to turn left onto Elm Street, or rather I would say we hesitated and we were all looking down towards the President's car and I could see two cars going under the underpass. I barely saw the President's car. I would say just the rear end of it as it disappeared under the underpass. SPECTER. Was that the only time you saw the President's car from the time you made a right-hand turn off of Main Street onto Houston Street? JACKSON. Yes, sir. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time span between the first shot you heard and the last shot you heard? JACKSON. I would say 5 to 8 seconds. SPECTER. Can you give us a breakdown between the shots which you heard as to how many seconds elapsed between each one? JACKSON. I would say to me it seemed like 3 or 4 seconds between the first and the second, and between the second and third, well, I guess 2 seconds, they were very close together. It could have been more time between the first and second. I really can't be sure. SPECTER. Are you sure you heard three shots? JACKSON. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Now, will you mark on the overhead shot, which is Exhibit 347, with a "Y" as precisely as you can the position of your automobile at the time you heard the second shot? JACKSON. With a "Y"? SPECTER. Yes, please. ( Witness marking.) SPECTER. Would you now mark on the same exhibit the precise position of your car as closely as you can recollect it when you heard the third shot with a letter "Z"? ( Witness marking.) SPECTER. When, in relation to the timing of the shots, which you have described, did you first look toward the Texas School Book Depository Building? JACKSON. It couldn't have been more than 3 seconds before I looked at that window. SPECTER. Three seconds from what point in time? JACKSON. From the last shot. SPECTER. Did you say from the last shot? JACKSON. From the last shot, yes, sir. SPECTER. What is your best recollection or estimate of the speed of your automobile as you were proceeding in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street at the time of the shooting? JACKSON. I would say not over 15 miles an hour. SPECTER. What would your best estimate be as to the minimum speed? JACKSON. Ten, I would say. SPECTER. Where, in the window were the two Negro men, whom you have described? JACKSON. Well, there was one in each of these double windows. SPECTER. On which floor was that? JACKSON. The fifth floor. SPECTER. And will you place an arrow where you saw each of those men, please? JACKSON. Each one of them? SPECTER. Yes. ( Witness marking.) SPECTER. Did you observe any reaction from either or both of those two men when you saw them? JACKSON. No, sir. Just looking up. SPECTER. Could you see their faces reasonably clearly to observe that they were looking up. JACKSON. I could tell they were looking up because they were leaning way out just like that. I couldn't see their faces very well at all. SPECTER. The witness has leaned forward and turned his head to the right and looking upward as he sits in the witness chair, may the record show. FORD. Did they both turn the same way as you have indicated in answer to Mr. Specter's question? JACKSON. To the best of my recollection one man looked up to his right and the other man looked up like this to his left, one in each window. FORD. Can you identify which to his right and which to his left? JACKSON. I believe the one on the right window, my right, was looking to his right. The one on the west window, the one to my left was looking to his left. I believe I am right on that but I may not be because I just looked at them for a fraction of a second, I just followed them up. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance which separated you from those two men at the time you observed them? JACKSON. I am not very good at distances. I was about the middle of the block, I guess. I would say around a hundred yards, I guess. SPECTER. Did you see these two men before or after you observed the rifle? JACKSON. Before. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of how many inches of the rifle that you observed? JACKSON. I saw the barrel and about half well, I did not see a telescopic sight, but I did see part of the stock, so I guess maybe 8 or 10 inches of the stock maybe. I did see part of the stock, I did not see the sight. SPECTER. Eight or ten inches of the stock, and how much of the barrel would you estimate? JACKSON. I guess possibly a foot. SPECTER. Did you see anyone's hands on the rifle? JACKSON. No, sir. SPECTER. Now, as best as you can recollect it, what exact words did you state at or about the time you made the observation of the rifle, if any? JACKSON. I said, "There is the gun" and somebody said "Where?" And I said, "It came from that window" and I pointed to that window. SPECTER. Do you recollect who it was who said "Where?" JACKSON. Somebody in the car, I don't recall who. SPECTER. Did anybody else in the car say anything else at that time? JACKSON. Nothing that I could remember. I am sure they were all SPECTER. Did you say anything else at about that time? JACKSON. If I did, I don't remember. SPECTER. Did anyone in the automobile state that he, too, had seen the rifle from the window? JACKSON. No, sir. SPECTER. Did you have a conversation with all of the men in the car immediately after the incident? JACKSON. No, sir; because as, I guess after the third shot, I do recall the driver speeding up, and we hesitated at the corner before turning left, and three of the occupants of the car got out, jumped out. SPECTER. Who were those three? JACKSON. That was Underwood, Jim Underwood, Tom Dillard and one of the TV cameramen. The WHAA channel 8 cameraman and I were left in the back seat. We couldn't make up our minds. SPECTER. Was there an individual in the car by the name of Mr. Couch, to your knowledge? JACKSON. Couch? SPECTER. Yes, sir. JACKSON. I don't know him. SPECTER. Malcolm Couch? JACKSON. The name is familiar. I might state what I did see as we did hesitate there. at the corner, I don't recall whether this was before the other three fellows got out of the car or not. I believe we were still all in the car, as we observed these other things, but in a fleeting glance as I saw the cars go under the underpass, I did see people running. I saw a motorcycle policeman jump off his motorcycle, in fact, he just hit the curb and just let it fall, and he went down on his knees on the grass, on the lawn of that parkway. I did see a family covering up their child, and I just saw a state of confusion, people running, and that is about all I saw at that point of the scene. SPECTER. Mr. Jackson, at the time you heard the first shot, did you have any reaction or impression from the sound itself as to the source of the shot, point of origin? JACKSON. No, sir; I didn't. It did sound like it came from ahead of us or from that general vicinity but I could not tell whether it was high up or on the ground. SPECTER. When you say that general vicinity, what vicinity did you mean? JACKSON. We were sure it came. from ahead of us which would be in a northerly direction, northwesterly direction. It did sound as though it came from somewhere around the head of the motorcade. SPECTER. From the second shot, did you have any reaction or impression as to the source of this shot? JACKSON. No, sir. Through all three shots, I could just tell that it was ahead of me and not behind me, that is it. SPECTER. And the same impression then prevailed through the third shot as well. JACKSON. Yes, sir. To me it never sounded like it was high or low. SPECTER. Have you had occasion since this incident to relate the factual sequences, your observations and what you heard? Have you had occasion to tell anybody about what you saw and,heard as you have described it to us? JACKSON. Yes. sir. SPECTER. Has there been any variation in your recollection or impressions about your observations on these occasions? JACKSON. Not to my knowledge. The other times were not as thorough as this. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, those are all of the questions which I have, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford. any questions you would like to ask Mr. Jackson? FORD. Mr. Jackson, when and by whom were you questioned or interrogated subsequent to the event? I was thinking of the FBI, the Secret Service, or any investigative organization. JACKSON. You say when, how soon afterwards? FORD. Right. JACKSON. I would say within 2 days afterwards, let's see — the next day was the first day. FORD. Saturday November 23? JACKSON. Yes, sir; I believe it was the first time. FORD. Who, by name, if you can, but if not by what organization? JACKSON. The FBI called me, I believe it was Friday evening. and I believe I did give some information on the phone Friday night. FORD. Was that followed up JACKSON. And they came and saw me in the office, I believe on Saturday. FORD. How did they happen to contact you? Had you made a statement publicly before? JACKSON. Our newspaper ran an article by me or I got a byline on it Stating this in general which I have stated today. FORD. Following this initial contact have you made subsequent statements to various organizations or any organization? JACKSON. I made statements to the Secret Service also. Other than that there was none other. FORD. How good are your eyes, do you wear glasses? JACKSON. No, sir. FORD. Have you had an eye examination recently or when was the last examination? JACKSON. I had a physical when I reenlisted in the National Guard, let's see, that was, I believe, about a year and a half ago, I had that physical and I had 20-20 vision. FORD. 20-20 vision? JACKSON. Yes, sir. FORD. You just indicated you were in the Texas National Guard? JACKSON. Yes, sir. FORD. How long have you been in the Texas National Guard? JACKSON. I joined in October 1958. FORD. And you have been in continuously since? JACKSON. Yes, sir. FORD. So you are familiar with guns in general? JACKSON. Yes, sir. FORD. So you would readily identify, if you saw it, a rifle? JACKSON. Yes, sir. FORD. Did any others in the automobile in which you were riding recollect as far as you know, hearing you say "There is the gun." JACKSON. I don't know whether they would remember it or not. FORD. Have you ever talked with any others in the car? JACKSON. I have never sat down and talked with them about the events, no, sir. I have seen them, of course, several times but I have never discussed it with them. FORD. You never discussed what you said or what they said? JACKSON. No, sir. I guess the one man I have discussed it more with than anybody else was Tom Dillard, the chief photographer for the Dallas News, and we recalled to each other the scene but we really never went into any detail or as to what each one of us said either. FORD. At the time you were in the car, after it had turned from Main onto Houston, was there any noise from the crowd on either side of the street, Houston Street? JACKSON. There was very little crowd on Houston, as I recall. On Houston itself. The crowd — I mean as compared to Main Street, to the other end of town and down through Main. The crowd thinned out as we got down near the intersection of Main and Houston, and there were a lot less people but I couldn't make an estimate of how many. FORD. There was no noise from the crowd at that point? JACKSON. No, sir; no noise, I would say. FORD. At the time you heard the first shot, what was your position in the car? Were you standing or sitting? JACKSON. I was sitting on the back of the seat, on the right-hand side of the back seat, sitting up. FORD. Did you have your camera in your hand? JACKSON. Yes; I had one camera around my neck and the camera I had just emptied, it was in my lap. I had thrown my film out to this reporter over the side of the car as we rounded the corner and I still had the camera lying in my lap, and the other one was around my neck. FORD. Was this the position you were in at the time you heard the first shot? JACKSON. Yes, sir. FORD. After the third shot and as the car hesitated, did you see any law enforcement officials move in any concentrated or concerted direction? JACKSON. I saw at least one, there may have been more, run up the School Depository steps, toward the door. That is one of the things I saw in this confusion. FORD. This was separate from the policeman on the motorcycle? JACKSON. Yes, sir. Yes. I should have said that a while ago. There was a policeman who moved toward the door of the Depository. But to my best knowledge there was no concentrated movement toward any one spot. It looked like general confusion to me, and of course, I stayed in the car. As we did turn the corner our driver speeded up and we went by the scene pretty fast and I do recall this Negro family covering up their child on the grass, and I, as we passed them, they were just getting up and he had the child in his arms and the child looked limp and I didn't know whether the child was shot or not. But then we were moving fast and went on under the underpass. FORD. That is all, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wright, do you have any questions? WRIGHT. No, Mr. Chief Justice, I passed a question on. SPECTER. I have just one additional question, and that is whether Mr. Jackson had any occasion to see anybody leave the scene of the Texas School Book Depository Building? JACKSON. No, sir. SPECTER. That is all, Your Honor. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jackson, thank you very much for coming. JACKSON. Thank you. </DIVISION2><DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2>J. Sawyer - police inspector</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> TESTIMONY OF J. HERBERT SAWYER The testimony of J. Herbert Sawyer was taken at 3:45 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? SAWYER. I do. BELIN. What is your occupation? SAWYER. Inspector of Police. BELIN. Of what Police Department? SAWYER. Dallas Police Department. BELIN. You live here in Dallas? SAWYER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Inspector, how long have you been with the Police Department? SAWYER. 23 years. BELIN. That would be then you came to the Police Department around 1941 or so? SAWYER. 1941, is right. BELIN. You have been with them ever since 1941? SAWYER. Except for a brief hitch in the Service during the war. BELIN. What did you do in the Service? SAWYER. I was a yeoman in the Navy. BELIN. Honorable discharge? SAWYER. Yes. BELIN. Prior to going into the Service, what did you do? SAWYER. Policeman. BELIN. Before you went into the Service? SAWYER. Yes. BELIN. Did you go to school here in Dallas? SAWYER. Yes. BELIN. Graduated from high school? SAWYER. Yes. I didn't graduate. I lacked half a year. BELIN. Then you got out and you went in — did you go right on the police force then? SAWYER. No. BELIN. What did you do? SAWYER. I worked as credit manager in a jewelry company. This was immediately prior to coming to the police department. Before that, I was a doorman at the Mural Room of the Baker Hotel. BELIN. When you first got out of high school, what did you do? SAWYER. I went out to California and went to work as a clerk in a grocery store. BELIN. What did you do after that? SAWYER. Came back to Dallas and went to Business College, and then I went to work as a doorman at the Mural Room of the Baker Hotel. And then from there I went to the jewelry, and later became credit manager. BELIN. And then after that? SAWYER. Then to the Police Department. BELIN. You have been with the Police Department ever since except for this time in the Navy? SAWYER. Yes. BELIN. How old are you? SAWYER. 47. BELIN. You are married? SAWYER. Yes. BELIN. Inspector, were you on duty on November 22, 1963? SAWYER. Yes. BELIN. By the way, were you an Inspector at that time? SAWYER. I was. BELIN. Where were you stationed with reference to the motorcade? Just what were your duties? SAWYER. I had charge of the crowd detail on Main Street from Akard to Harwood. BELIN. After the motorcade passed, what did you SAWYER. I headed west on Main Street. BELIN. Did you immediately get in your car after the motorcade passed? SAWYER. Well, not immediately, because the crowd was real thick and completely surrounded the car, but I did as soon as it was feasible to get back in the car. BELIN. Do you remember where your car was parked? SAWYER. Yes. It was parked on Ervay Street, at the intersection of Ervay and Main, but it was, well, it was on the north side of Main Street on Ervay. It run parallel to Main Street. BELIN. All right, you got in your car shortly after the motorcade passed then? SAWYER. Yes. BELIN. Then what did you do? SAWYER. Well, I headed west, or tried to. I had to wait until the crowd cleared out, and as soon as the crowd cleared enough, I headed west on Main Street. BELIN. Any particular reason why you headed west on Main Street? SAWYER. Because that was the way the car was pointed at the time I got in. BELIN. All right, then what did you do as you went west on Main Street? SAWYER. I just went real slow down the street because of people crossing, and at the time, the radio broadcast came in about a lot of activity down at the lower end around Houston and Elm Street. BELIN. Do you remember what radio broadcast this is? Who broadcast it? SAWYER. I heard Sheriff Decker come on the radio and tell the dispatcher to get all of his men over to, and I thought he said Texas School Book Depository, but at least that was the overall gist of the conversation. That is what I gathered. He may not have said Texas School Book Depository, but the Texas School Book Depository was mentioned in the broadcasts that were made at that time. BELIN. Was this on Channel 1 or Channel 2 if you remember? SAWYER. Channel 2, I am sure. BELIN. Did Sheriff Decker have any particular call number at all, or not, in your police number system? SAWYER. No. I was wondering why he come on our radio, but then I think that he was with Chief Curry and probably using that radio. BELIN. All right, in any event, a call was made from Chief Curry's car? SAWYER. Well, this I don't know either. I don't know what car it was made from, but I think it was Sheriff Decker talking. I could recognize his voice, yes. BELIN. What did you do then? SAWYER. Then I went on down to the Texas Book Depository. BELIN. Where did you park your car? SAWYER. In front of the Texas School Book Depository. BELIN. In front of the main entrance there? SAWYER. In front of the main entrance. BELIN. What did you do then? SAWYER. Immediately went into — well, talked to some of the officers around there who told me the story that they had thought some shots had come from one of the floors in the building, and I think the fifth floor was mentioned, but nobody seemed to know who the shots were directed at or what had actually happened, except there had been a shooting there at the time the President's motorcade had gone by. And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about the fifth floor. And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn't see anything. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct? SAWYER. That's right. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front door? SAWYER. Right. BELIN. Then what did you do? SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the elevator as you walked in the front door? SAWYER. It was to the right. BELIN. To the right? SAWYER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Was it a freight elevator or a passenger elevator? SAWYER. The best of my recollection, it was a passenger elevator. BELIN. Did you push for the top button in that elevator? SAWYER. Well, I don't know who pushed it, but we went up to the top floor. BELIN. You went up to the top floor that the elevator would go to? SAWYER. That's right. BELIN. You got off, and were there officers there? SAWYER. There was one or two other officers with me. BELIN. Now when you got off, you say you went into the back there into a warehouse area? SAWYER. Storage area; what appeared to be a storage area. BELIN. Did you go into any place other than a warehouse or storage area? SAWYER. No. BELIN. Was there anything other than a warehouse or storage area there? SAWYER. Well, to one side I could see an office over there with people in it. Some women that apparently were office workers. BELIN. Now Inspector, what did you do then? SAWYER. Well, I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, so I immediately came back downstairs to check the security on the building. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that? SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out. BELIN. What about the rear entrance? SAWYER. Well, I also had the sergeant go around and cheek to be sure that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were already covered. BELIN. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the building? SAWYER. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been done by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody in or out. BELIN. All right, now, did you give the instructions not to let anyone in or out? SAWYER. I did. BELIN. Did you give those instructions before or after you came down from the fourth floor or top floor? SAWYER. After I got down. BELIN. So your procedure, if I understand it, was this. You were driving on Main Street when you heard Sheriff Decker on the radio? SAWYER. Yes. BELIN. Inspector, to try and reconstruct the time of sealing off the building, I believe you said that before you got to the building or at about the time you got to the building, you thought that you heard something about the Texas School Book Depository over the radio? SAWYER. Right. BELIN. At least some time before you left your car, is that correct? SAWYER. Yes; it would have to be, in order to hear it. BELIN. Now, I have with me the transcript of the radio log here of November 22, and I notice that, according to the log, at 12:30, and you have examined it, there appears there is a statement by Chief Curry, and then something by Sheriff Decker concerning, well, we'd better call this Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, which is a transcript ofthe radio log, and it reads right now — we will try and restaple it later on — but right now, Page 2 and 3 are reversed insofar as the order is concerned. You see at 12:28 p.m., on this exhibit Curry calls in that they are near the triple underpass, and then at 12:30 p.m., it says, "Station Break," is that right? SAWYER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Then the next thing that goes on, it is Number 1, which is Chief Curry's number, am I correct in that? SAWYER. Right. BELIN. Then according to the transcript, the statement is made — you might just read it here in front of you: "Go to the hospital, officers, Parkland Hospital, have them stand by. Get men on top of the underpass, see what happened up there, go up to the overpass. Have Parkland stand by." You see these words here, Inspector Sawyer? SAWYER. Yes. BELIN. Then on a continuation, "Dallas-1," which is marked in by someone as Sheriff Decker says: "I'm sure it's going to take some time to get your men in there. Put every one of my men there." Then there is a call back to Curry from 531, which is your home station, is that correct? SAWYER. That's right. I really didn't quite understand all of it. BELIN. Then Curry is quoted as saying: "Notify Station 5 to move all men available out of my department back into the railroad yard and try to determine what happened and hold everything secure until homicide and other investigators can get in there." SAWYER. That is Decker speaking there. BELIN. That is Decker? SAWYER. That's right. BELIN. You believe that is what Decker said? SAWYER. That is what he said, yes, that's right. BELIN. All right. SAWYER. His number is Dallas-1, and they are talking to 1. They have that confused. BELIN. Well, Curry is 1 also? SAWYER. That's right. BELIN. But I think they were riding in the same car? SAWYER. That might be correct, but this is actually Decker's voice here. and that is what he had to say. BELIN. Well, then. the comment is made "Notify Station 5 —" SAWYER. That is the Sheriff's Office. BELIN. "To move all men available out of my Department back into the railroad yard —" And that you feel is Decker talking because of the reference to Station 5? SAWYER. Also, my memory serves that it was his voice that made that. BELIN. All right, then, at 12:31, is a notation there that quotes, "It looks like the President has been hit." Then there doesn't appear to be anything pertaining to where the shots might have come from until we see at 12:34, there is a call from officer, it says No. 136, that states, "A passer-by states the shots came from Texas School Book Depository Building. This is the first reference in the log about the Texas School Book Depository, is that correct? SAWYER. That's correct. BELIN. Do you feel that you heard in your car some reference to the Texas School Book Depository building? SAWYER. I do. BELIN. Would it be fair for me to assume then that you had not at least completely left your car by 12:34 p.m? SAWYER. Correct. BELIN. Then when you got to the Texas School Book Depository, well, you got out of the car and talked to some people or to some officers? SAWER. Officers. BELIN. And then what did the officers tell you? SAWYER. That their information was that the shots had come from the fifth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. BELIN. Did any officers give you any other information about the source of the shots other than the fact that it came from the Texas School Book Depository, at that particular time? SAWYER. I can't say whether it was officers or who, but there was a reference also made to the overpass. BELIN. All right, in any event — pardon me, do you have anything else to add? SAWYER. Also, there was a broadcast here in the transcript about the railroad yard. BELIN. All right. SAWYER. And this could be part of what I was thinking about, or what I had heard, was this broadcast on the radio about the railroad yard. BELIN. Then what did you do? You went inside the building, is that correct? SAWYER. We immediately went inside the building. I took — I believe Sgt. Harkness may have gone with me. I am not positive of that. BELIN. Was the elevator on the first floor when you got there, or did you have to wait for it to come down? SAWYER. Best of my recollection, it was there. BELIN. You got to the elevator, went up, looked around back there. How long did you spend up there at the top floor that the elevator took you to? SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down? SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34? SAWYER. Yes, sir. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do? SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to double check the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of? SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that? SAWYER. That's right. BELIN. All right, anybody that would have been seen leaving the building would have been stopped and interrogated by the officers that were there? Even before you instructed them? SAWYER. Yes, because they were looking for something or anything, and I know that anybody coming out of the back doors, from what the sergeant told me, they would have stopped them, too. BELIN. What happened at the front door now. There were people standing out on the area of the steps, were there not? SAWYER. No. There were some people around, yes. BELIN. Do you know whether or not any of those would have been stopped? SAWYER. For sure, no; I don't. BELIN. Now after you got down and you issued these orders, then what did you SAWYER. I set up a command post in front. The various officers were bringing up different witnesses who had seen various things, and I saw that this was quite an involved situation. It was so many of these people that had information, that I knew I didn't have time to take this information down, and by this time several deputy sheriffs were standing there, and one of them, I think he was a supervisor, I had his name at one time, I can't think of it now, was there, and he offered the use of an interrogation room of Sheriff Decker's office, I think he said, for interrogating these people. BELIN. That is located down the street a little bit there? Mr. SAWER. Well, it is catty-corner across the street. BELIN. All right. SAWYER. It is southeast across the street from the Texas School Book Depository, at least from the corner, and so we set up a group of officers and deputy sheriffs who were to take charge of the witnesses and take them over to see that affidavits were taken from them. They were more or less an escort service so the witness wouldn't get away. And then as our detectives began to show up, I sent them over to the Sheriff's Office to assist in taking these depositions or affidavits. BELIN. How many witnesses were there around there during this period of time that you talked to? SAWYER. Well, during the entire period of time that I was there, I would venture to say between 25 to 50 different people had come up with information of one kind or another. BELIN. Now, on this radio log, Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, do you notice your number there for any calls at all that might have come in? What number did you use? SAWYER. I used No. 9. That is my regular call No. 9. BELIN. I notice here a No. 9, the first time that appears to come in here is at 12:40 p.m.; is that right? SAWYER. That is the first one after 12:40, sir. BELIN. The first one after 12:30? SAWYER. The first one after 12:30, yes, that is true. BELIN. Then at 12:40, there is a bunch of calls at 12:40. with the next call number at 12:43, so you assume sometime 12:40 and 12:43 you, as No. 9, called in, is that correct? SAWYER. That's correct SAWYER. Would you read what it says that you said there? SAWYER. "We need more manpower down here at the Texas Book Depository; there should be a bunch on Main if somebody can pick them up and bring them down here." SAWYER. Was that said before or after you came down from the elevator? SAWYER. That was after. BELIN. Was that before or after you told the men there to guard the front door and not let anyone in or out? SAWYER. That was after. BELIN. Now the next time that No. 9 appears is at what time? SAWYER. Immediately after 12:43 and before 12:45. BELIN. What did you say then? SAWYER. "The wanted person in this is a slender white male about 30, 5 feet 10, 165, carrying what looks to be a 30-30 or some type of Winchester." BELIN. Then the statement is made from the home office, "It was a rifle?" SAWYER. I answered, "Yes, a rifle." BELIN. Then the reply to you, "Any clothing description?" SAWYER. "Current witness can't remember that." BELIN. Then the statement is made sometime before 12:45 p.m., and after the 12:43 p.m., call, "Attention all squads, description was broadcast and no further information at this time." Does that mean the description you made was rebroadcast? SAWYER. I rebroadcast that description. That is what that means. BELIN. I then notice on this radio log — I don't see anything more under 9, at least until after the, well, it is down until we have gone as far as 1:30 p.m., I don't see anything else, do you, sir? SAWYER. No. There is another broadcast in there somewhere, though. I put out another description on the colored boy that worked in that department. BELIN. What do you mean the colored boy that worked in that depository? SAWYER. He is one that had a previous record in the narcotics, and he was supposed to have been a witness to the man being on that floor. He was supposed to have been a witness to Oswald being there. BELIN. Would Charles Givens have been that boy? SAWYER. Yes, I think that is the name, and I put out a description on him. BELIN. How do you know he was supposed to be a witness on that? SAWYER. Somebody told me that. Somebody came to me with the information. And again, that particular party, whoever it was, I don't know. I remember that a deputy sheriff came up to me who had been over taking these affidavits, that I sent them over there, and he came over from the sheriffs office with a picture and a description of this colored hey and he said that he was supposed to have worked at the Texas Book Depository, and he was the one employee who was missing, or he was missing from the building. He wasn't accounted for, and that he was suppose to have some information about the man that did the shooting. BELIN. When you say about the man who did the shooting, did know at that time who did the shooting? SAWYER. No. BELIN. Do you know about what time in the afternoon this was? SAWYER. Somewhere along in here; let's see if we can't find it. BELIN. This doesn't go past 1:53 p.m. SAWYER. What about your other transcript? BELIN. I have a transcript of another one here, at least I did have. SAWYER. I think we caught the man in the crowd later and sent him down. We sent him directly down to Captain Fritz's office. BELIN. Well, just a minute now. I see here on No. 1, you have two channels there. SAWYER. This is Channel 1, yes. BELIN. We will call this Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit B. I see here that you go on at 12:45 p.m., with this statement by your No. 9. You want to read it? SAWYER. Yes. "From this building it is unknown if he is still there or not. Unknown if he was there in the first place." BELIN. Then it reads back here, "All the information we have received, indicates it did come from the fifth or fourth of that building." That is the central headquarters back to you, is that Mr. Sawyer. That's right, BELIN. That is at least after 12:45 p.m., and before 12:48 p.m,? SAWYER. Right. BELIN. Now looking down on this log until the next time your number appears, is 1:12 p.m. What does that say? SAWYER. "We have found empty rifle hulls on the fifth floor and from all indications the man had been there for some time." BELIN. Then is there anything else? SAWYER. This was reported to me by somebody inside the building. BELIN. That was at 1:12 p.m., that the hulls were found, or at least shortly prior to that? This doesn't say anything else. It apparently doesn't go in detail much past 1:58 p.m., on Sawyer Deposition Exhibit B, and 1:53 p.m., on Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit L. SAWYER. 'that's right. BELIN. Do you still feel sometime after that you might have called out another description? SAWYER. It was another, sometime after that, or it has been left out of this. I don't think it has been left out of this, but it must have been after 1:53. BELIN. All right, now, sir; you did broadcast that description out of this man? SAWYER. Yes, that's correct. BELIN. That shows on the radio log. Where did you get that description from? SAWYER. We are talking now about the colored man? BELIN. No, I am talking about the one that is on Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, that shows you at 12:43. SAWYER. That description came to me mainly from one witness who claimed to have seen the rifle barrel in the fifth or sixth floor of the building, and claimed to have been able to see the man up there. BELIN. Do you know this person's name? SAWYER. I do not. BELIN. Do you know anything about him, what he was wearing? SAWYER. Except that he was — I don't remember what he was wearing. I remember that he was a white man and that he wasn't young and he wasn't old. He was there. That is the only two things that I can remember about him. BELIN. What age would you categorize as young? SAWYER. Around 35 would be my best recollection of it but it could be a few years either way. BELIN. Do you remember if he was tall or short, or can't you remember anything about him? SAWYER. I can't remember that much about him. I was real hazy about that. BELIN. Do you remember where he said he was standing when he saw the person with the rifle? SAWYER. I didn't go into detail with him except that from the best of my recollection, he was standing where he could have seen him, But there were too many people coming up with questions to go into detail. I got the description and sent him on over to the Sheriff's Office. BELIN. Inspector, do you remember anything else about this person who you say gave you the primary description? SAWYER. No, I do not, except that I did send him with an escort to the Sheriff's Office to give fuller or more complete detail. BELIN. Do you know if he was taken there to see a lineup at the police station? SAWYER. No. BELIN. Did you ever see him again? SAWYER. Not to my knowledge. BELIN. Now, you talked to other people there that said they had some information with regard to where the shots may have come from? SAWYER. Yes, through a number of people. BELIN. First I am going to ask you if you talked to any other people who said they saw a rifle or part of a rifle? SAWYER. Yes. There were a few who claimed that they had seen this. BELIN. Where did these people that claimed they saw a rifle or part of a rifle SAWYER. The ones that I talked to were pointing out one of the upper floors of the Texas School Book Depository, which at that time I thought was the fifth floor. BELIN. Do you know what portion, what side of the building it was? Was it the northeast corner or west side of the building? SAWYER. It was on the south side of the building, and in the southeast corner. BELIN. What about this person, who I will call the primary description witness, did he say what side of the building it was on? SAWYER. He went and pointed out the window which I now know to be the sixth floor, but when I talked to him, I thought it was the fifth floor. BELIN. The fifth floor? SAWYER. Yes. BELIN. What side of the building? SAWYER. On the south side of the building, and the southeast corner. BELIN. Did you talk to any witness, or did any witness talk to you who claimed to see any rifle or portion of a rifle at any place other than a window of Texas School Book Depository Building? SAWYER. No, did any — BELIN. Did any officer give you any information about talking to anyone who saw a rifle or a portion of a rifle at any place other than a window in the Texas School Book Depository Building? SAWYER. No, not to my knowledge. BELIN. Did you talk to people who attempted to locate the shots on the basis of what I would call their sense of hearing, rather than their sense of sight? In other words, what they heard rather than what they saw? SAWYER. Correct. That is correct. Some of them claimed that they had heard shots, or thought they heard shots from over the overpass. BELIN. Did all the people you talked to say that they heard shots over the overpass? Claim they had some knowledge about where the shots came from? Did they all say they heard shots from the overpass, or did they say they heard some from other places? SAWYER. No. Very few said they heard the shots come from the overpass, or thought they heard them from that area. BELIN. Well, where did other people say they heard shots come from? SAWYER. Most of the people that heard the shots pointed out the Texas Book Depository. BELIN. Did some of the people that heard shots, or thought they heard shots from the Texas School Book Depository, all say they saw a rifle there? SAWYER. No. BELIN. Most of them say they saw a rifle there? SAWYER. No, just a few, very few. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of that occurred at the Texas School Book Depository that afternoon while you were there that might have any relevancy about where the shots came from, other than what you have told thus far? SAWYER. Well, I had heard some of the officers come to me and said there was supposed to be, somebody told them about a woman that had taken some pictures of that window, and then one of the sergeants came to me, and I am not sure who the sergeant is now, but anyway he said that there was on the building immediately west — east, I am sorry — east of the Texas School Book Depository, that a man up in one of the upper windows up there was taking some moving pictures of what had gone on. BELIN. Did you ever contact this man? Do you know what his name is? SAWYER. No; I don't know his name. The sergeant told me that the man would not give them the pictures, that he was waiting for the Secret Service or the FBI, I forget which now, and I sent the sergeant and two men back over there with instructions to bring that man and his pictures to me. When they got back over there, Forrest Sorrels of the Secret Service was already there, and at least they so reported back to me, and was talking to this man. So I told them to go ahead with their normal assignments and since Forrest was already there and talking to him, I knew that that part would be taken care of. BELIN. You don't know what his name was or what the results of it was? SAWYER. I don't know. BELIN. Anything else? SAWYER. Later that afternoon one of our colored officer detectives saw this colored man in this crowd across the street and we had previously broadcast a description on, and he took him into custody and sent him immediately down to Captain Fritz' office. BELIN. He gave a statement, is that it? SAWYER. This I don't know. I presume he did, but I didn't stop to talk to him or take any information. I just sent him on down there. BELIN. Anything else you can think of at this time? SAWYER. No. BELIN. You spent most of the afternoon out in front of the building there? SAWYER. I spent most of the afternoon up until 4 o'clock. BELIN. Then what did you do? SAWYER. I went back down to the City Hall and checked around there to see if anything further I could do, and then I went home. BELIN. What did you do on Saturday, the 23rd? Anything that has to do with the assassination or the investigation of the Tippit murder? SAWYER. No. I happened to be off on Saturday, and I didn't go back down. The boss didn't call me, so I stayed home. BELIN. What about Sunday? SAWYER. Same thing. In fact, I didn't even hear about the other thing until way late in the afternoon. BELIN. Is there any other information that you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that might be in any way relevant here? SAWYER. The only other thing I can remember that I did down there, was when the shooting on Officer Tippit came in, I released half a dozen men to go to Oak Cliff to help with that. BELIN. Inspector, is there anything else that you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that is in any way relevant here? SAWYER. I can't think of anything. BELIN. Sir, we certainly appreciate your cooperation in coming down here. You have a right, if you would like, after this report is typewritten, to read it and sign it before it is sent to us, or you can waive the reading of it and have it sent to us directly. It doesn't make a bit of difference to us. SAWYER. Which ever you prefer. It doesn't make any difference to me. I would like to read it. BELIN. Why don't we say you read it and sign it, and it will be sent to us. SAWYER. Okay. </DIVISION2></DIVISION1> <DIVISION1> <DIVISION1TITLE><H2>On or near the Grassy Knoll</H2></DIVISION1TITLE><DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2>J. Hill - school teacher</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> TESTIMONY OF Mrs. JEAN LOLLIS HILL The testimony of Mrs. Jean Lollis Hill was taken at 2:30 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. SPECTER. May the record show that Mrs. Jean Lollis Hill is present at this moment in response to a letter request that she appear and give a deposition to the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. May I say for the record, Mrs. Hill, that the Commission is investigating all of the facts relating to the shooting and, and we have asked you to appear here today to tell us what you know, if anything, relating to the actual assassination, because we understand you were on the scene or nearby at that time. May the record further reflect that Mrs. Hill was sent a letter under date of March 18, 1964. With that preliminary statement, I will ask you, Mrs. Hill, to stand and raise your right hand, if you will please. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mrs. HILL. I do. SPECTER. Will you be seated, please, Mrs. Hill? And would you state your full name for the record? Mrs. HILL. Jean Lollis Hill. SPECTER. Mrs. Hill, have you received a letter request? Mrs. HILL. Yes, sir; I have. SPECTER. Under date of March 18, 1964? Mrs. HILL. I have it here. SPECTER. Well, when did you see that letter request? Mrs. HILL. Well, I guess I got it 2 or 3 days afterward — March 18 — so I must have gotten it Monday — no; I couldn't have gotten it yesterday — I got it Saturday. SPECTER. That would have been March 21? Mrs. HILL. That's right. SPECTER. All right. May the record show that a court reporter is present and is taking verbatim transcript of the deposition of Mrs. Hill, with the court reporter, Mrs. Hill, and myself being present, and that all of the report is being transcribed and has been transcribed from the time Mrs. Hill arrived, is that correct, Mrs. Hill? Mrs. HILL. That is correct. SPECTER. Where were you on the day of November 22, 1963, at about noontime? Mrs. HILL. I was standing directly across from the Texas School Depository Building on a grassy slope and the triangle toward the underpass. SPECTER. And that would have been Dealey Plaza? Mrs. HILL. If that's what the name of it is. SPECTER. Now, would that be on the — Mrs. HILL. It was to the left of the motorcade. SPECTER. To the left of the motorcade as the motorcade proceeded forward? Mrs. HILL. That's right. SPECTER. So, you would have been on the south side of Elm Street? Mrs. HILL. That's right. SPECTER. Now, what had you done immediately before noontime, Mrs. Hill? Mrs. HILL. We had been there for about an hour and a half and had been walking up and down and back and forth. SPECTER. When you say "we" whom do you mean by that? Mrs. HILL. My friend, Mary Moorman, that took the picture. SPECTER. She had a camera with her? Mrs. HILL. Yes; a Polaroid. We had been taking pictures all morning. SPECTER. And did you have a camera with you? Mrs. HILL. No. SPECTER. And tell me what you observed as the President's motorcade passed by? Mrs. HILL. You mean — SPECTER. Start any place that you find most convenient and just tell me in your own way what happened. Mrs. HILL. Well, as they came toward us, we had been taking pictures with this Polaroid camera and since it was a Polaroid we knew we had only one chance to get a picture, and at the time she had taken a picture just a few minutes before and I had grabbed it out of the camera and wrapped it and put it in my pocket. Just about that time he drew even with us. SPECTER. And when you say "he" you mean? Mrs. HILL. The President's car. We were standing on the curb and I jumped to the edge of the street and yelled, "Hey, we want to take your picture," to him and he was looking down in the seat — he and Mrs. Kennedy and their heads were turned toward the middle of the car looking down at something in the seat, which later turned out to be the roses, and I was so afraid he was going to look the other way because there were a lot of people across the street and we were, as far as I know, we were the only people down there in that area, and just as I yelled, "Hey," to him, he started to bring his head up to look at me and just as he did the shot rang out. Mary took the picture and fell on the ground and of course there were more shots. SPECTER. How many shots were there altogether? Mrs. HILL. I have always said there were some four to six shots. There were three shots — one right after the other, and a distinct pause, or just a moment's pause, and then I heard more. SPECTER. How long a time elapsed from the first to the third of what you described as the first three shots? Mrs. HILL. They were rapidly — they were rather rapidly fired. SPECTER. Could you give me an estimate on the time span on those three shots? Mrs. HILL. No; I don't think I can. SPECTER. Now, how many shots followed what you described as the first three shots? Mrs. HILL. I think there were at least four or five shots and perhaps six, but I know there were more than three. SPECTER. How much time elapsed from the very first shot until the very last shot, will you estimate? Mrs. HILL. I don't think I could, properly, but my girl friend fell on the ground after about — during the shooting — right, I would say, just immediately after she had taken the picture — probably about the third shot. She fell on the ground and grabbed my slacks and said, "Get down, they're shooting." And, I knew they were but I was too stunned to move, so I didn't get down. I just stood there and gawked around. SPECTER. Can't you give me any better idea on the sequence of the shots other than to say that there were three shots right in a row and then a moment's pause and an additional shot or shots. Mrs. HILL. In what way? SPECTER. Is there any way you could be more specific by way of time lapses among any of the shots, from the first to the second shot, the second to the third, or in that manner? Mrs. HILL. The three were fired as though one person were firing; I mean, to me. They were fired just like you could reload and fire again or whatever you do with a gun. SPECTER. With what sort of an action? Mrs. HILL. I think that the firing that was done could have been done with the type gun that they say the assassinator used. SPECTER. And what type gun was that, according to your understanding? Mrs. HILL. A bolt action. SPECTER. And how about the shots that followed the three shots, then, what would the sequence of timing have been on those? Mrs. HILL. I thought they were different — I thought the sequence was different. SPECTER. How will you describe the sequence? Mrs. HILL. Quicker — more automatic. SPECTER. Were there as few as four, as you recollected? Mrs. HILL. I won't say positively, I think I can still seemingly hear it, and I would still say there were more, you know, I'm saying 4 to 6. I know there were at least 4, and I just almost swear that I heard 5 or 6. SPECTER. Could there have been more than 6 that you heard? Mrs. HILL. I couldn't say that I heard more than that. SPECTER. Could you say for certain that you did not hear more than that? Mrs. HILL. Yes; I didn't hear any more than that. SPECTER. What was the position of the President, as best you recollect it, at the time the first shot was heard by you? Mrs. HILL. He was slightly turned, he was sitting back in the seat, slightly turned toward Mrs. Kennedy and his head was down, and his hands were like this (indicating). SPECTER. His hands were in his lap? Mrs. HILL. No—not really. SPECTER. How would you describe the position of his hands? Mrs. HILL. He was sitting here [indicating] and Mrs. Kennedy — he was like this [indicating]. SPECTER. You are indicating the right hand on the left knee? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. With the body turned slightly toward the person on his left? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. Who would have been Mrs. Kennedy? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. And were you watching him at this time? Mrs. HILL. Yes, I was looking fight at his face. SPECTER. And what reaction, if any, did he have at the time of the first shot? Mrs. HILL. As I said, I had yelled at him and he had started to raise his head up and I saw his head start to come up and all at once a bullet rang out and he slumped forward like this [indicating]. SPECTER. Lurched or slumped, as you say, to the left? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. Did his head drop down? Mrs. HILL. Yes; he was just, you know, slumping down like this. SPECTER. Did you have a chance to see anything of Governor Connally at that exact second? Mrs. HILL. There was a scrambling around in the front seat. I didn't know who was riding with him, I hadn't paid any attention to who was riding with him in the car, but I never did see Mrs. Connally. I guess my story is probably colored by what I have heard. SPECTER. Tell me what you have heard that you think maybe that colored your story? Mrs. HILL. About what the Connallys say about the shots, which shots hit where and everything. SPECTER. What is that that you have heard? Mrs. HILL. Well, I have heard that 1 shot hit Kennedy and also hit Connally, that the same shot that hit Kennedy hit Connally. SPECTER. Where did you hear that, Mrs. Hill? Mrs. HILL. I don't know. SPECTER. What else have you heard? Mrs. HILL. And also that Mrs. Connally jumped up and covered Mr. Connally with her body and pushed him to the floor, but I never did see Mrs. Connally. SPECTER. Did you ever see Governor Connally? Mrs. HILL. Yes; I did see him; I didn't know who he was, but I did see him and I knew that someone had been hit. SPECTER. Where was he pushed in the car? Mrs. HILL Well, I just vaguely know that he was toward the front. SPECTER. Well, was he in the front seat of the car or was he between President Kennedy and the front seat of the ear, or where was he? Mrs. HILL. Between President Kennedy? SPECTER. You know that there were jump seats in the car so that there would have been people sitting three positions forward, one in the back seat — President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy, on the right in the jump seat — Governor Connally and Mrs. Connally and in the front seat, two Secret Service agents — people sitting three positions forward? Mrs. HILL. I saw the Secret Service agents. SPECTER. Had you been, prior to the time I told you just now, familiar with that arrangement of the personnel in the car? Mrs. HILL. Yes; I knew that, and as I said, I didn't know who the people were in the car because I am new here — I don't know the Connallys, I just knew that people were in the car. SPECTER. Did you notice the person sitting in the jump seat on the right hand side, that would be the person immediately in front of President Kennedy? Mrs. HILL. Well, I would say it was Mr. Connally. SPECTER. Did you observe him at any specific time? Mrs. HILL. I saw a man fall to the floor. SPECTER. And when, in point of time, did you see him fall? Mrs. HILL. After the President was shot, but I wouldn't — it wasn't with the first shot. To me he wasn't hit when the first shot hit. SPECTER. And what is the basis for your saying that, Mrs. Hill? Mrs. HILL. Well, I just think that he was hit after Kennedy was hit because, well, just the way that it looked, I would say that he was hit later. SPECTER. Now, do you associate the time that Governor Connally appeared to have been hit with any specific shot that you heard? Mrs. HILL. The second. SPECTER. And what specifically did you observe at the time of the second shot? Mrs. HILL. Well, that's what I thought had happened — that they had hit someone in the front part of the car. SPECTER. And what did you observe at the time of the third shot? Mrs. HILL. President Kennedy was hit again and he had further buffeted his body and I didn't realize at the time what it was — I remarked to my friends in the police station that day — did she notice his hair standing up, because it did. It just rippled up like this. SPECTER. And at what time was that? Mrs. HILL. On the third shot. SPECTER. Did you notice Governor Connally at the time of the third shot? Mrs. HILL. I never saw him again. SPECTER. What occurred at the time of the fourth shot which you believe you heard? Mrs. HILL. Well, at that time, of course, there was a pause and I took the other shots — about that time Mary grabbed me and was yelling and I had looked away from what was going on here and I thought, because I guess from the TV and movies, that it was Secret Service agents shooting back. To me, if somebody shoots at somebody they always shoot back and so I just thought that that's what it was and I thought, well, they are getting him and shooting back, you know; I didn't know. SPECTER. Where was the President's car at the time you thought you heard the fourth shot? Mrs. HILL. The motorcade came to almost a halt at the time the shots rang out, and I would say it was just approximately, if not — it couldn't have been in the same position, I'm sure it wasn't, but just a very, very short distance from where it had been. It was just almost stunned. SPECTER. And how about the time of the fifth shot, where do you think the President's car was? Mrs. HILL . That was during those shots, I think it wasn't any further than a few feet — further down. SPECTER Which shots, now — you mean the fourth, and perhaps the fifth and perhaps the sixth shot? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. Are you able to say what anyone was doing or what events were occurring at the time of the fourth through perhaps the sixth shots which you have testified about? Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, at that time she was yelling at me and on the ground. SPECTER. Who was yelling at you? Mrs. HILL. Mary, my friend, was yelling at me and she was down on the ground and I looked up and I could see everyone was just stunned, there was immobility all around and I just stood there looking around and I'm sure there was fit a pause — it seemed like an eternity but I'm sure there was just a slight pause before things started moving again. SPECTER. Were the shots over by that time when things started moving again? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. Then what happened on the scene? Mrs. HILL. Well, they say Mrs. Kennedy climbed up on the back of the car. SPECTER. Did you observe that? Mrs. HILL. No; I have seen pictures that show that she must have, but I ran across the street. SPECTER. To the — Mrs. HILL. Other side. SPECTER. North side of Elm Street? Mrs. HILL. That's right. I saw a man up there running, or getting away or walking away or something — I would say he was running. SPECTER. Where was that man when you first saw him? Mrs. HILL. He was right up there by the School Depository, just — not at the corner where they say the shots came from, at the other end, right up on the slope at the top of the slope. SPECTER. Would that be in front of the School Book Depository Building? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. At the west end? Mrs. HILL. More to the west end. SPECTER. Would it be between the westernmost point of the building and some other point in the building? Was he at the westernmost point or farther east than the westernmost point? Mrs. HILL. I would say he was farther east than the westernmost point. SPECTER. Would you draw a diagram for me in rough outline, starting with Houston Street Mrs. HILL. Yes; but I can't do this very well. SPECTER. Permit me to draw an outline, then, to get your bearing here and realizing that I want your recollection, and I'll ask you the questions. Assume that Houston Street is the street which I am marking Houston. Assume that this is Main Street. Assume that Elm Street curves down in the manner that I am drawing and marking. Mrs. HILL. All right. SPECTER. Assume that the Texas School Book Depository is this large building which I will mark "TSBD." Now, would you place with the letter "A" where you were at the time the President went by? Mrs. HILL. Well, I would have to place the President first. SPECTER. Fine — place him with the letter "X". Mrs. HILL. All right — if he were here — SPECTER. Now, was he in the center of the street or on the side of the street? Mrs. HILL. He was on the side — he wasn't just completely over there, but he was past the center of the street and we were SPECTER. Now, place yourself with the letter "A". Mrs. HILL. Right there [indicating]. SPECTER. Make it a big printed "A" for us. Mrs. HILL. Okay. [Complied with request of counsel Specter.] SPECTER. Now, would you place the position you ran to after the President's car went by? Mrs. HILL. By that time, I'm sure the car was here — it was on down a little way, and I ran behind here. SPECTER. Draw a line to where you ran. Mrs. HILL. All right — I don't know whether I've got this just right — but I ran approximately right up through here. SPECTER. Put a "B" here where you were when you came to a stop on the other side of the street. Mrs. HILL. These steps. SPECTER. Now, where were you when you first noticed the Mrs. HILL. These steps that go up — I guess you've looked at the site, there are some steps down there that go up to that promenade, or whatever you call it. SPECTER. That go in a generally westerly direction? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. Beyond the Texas School Book Depository Building? Mrs. HILL. Yes; and I was just on this side. SPECTER. "This side" — you are meaning — the east of it? Mrs. HILL. The east of it SPECTER. Were you beyond the westernmost point of the Texas School Book Depository Building? Mrs. HILL. No. SPECTER. You were still in front of that building? Mrs. HILL. That's right. SPECTER. Now, is the letter "B" now in the position where you were when you first saw that man? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. Where was that man, indicating with the letter "C" where he was? He was very close to you? Mrs. HILL. Well, he was at the top of this hill — you don't leave me any space in here — I mean, there's a distance in here greater than what is shown here. SPECTER. He was between Elm Street and the Depository Building? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. And where did you see him going? Mrs. HILL. I saw him go toward the tracks, toward the railroad tracks to the west? SPECTER. What did you observe about that man, if anything? Mrs. HILL. That he just had on a brown overcoat and a hat. SPECTER. Why was your attention attracted to him? Mrs. HILL. Because he was the only thing moving up there. The other people were all grief stricken and standing there and I don't know what I would have done with him when I got up there, but I don't know why I even had the instinct to run, and I don't know that it is anything even connected with this, but since I had already — I have told it and it is part of my recollection, I am just stating it again. SPECTER. Well, was there anything about the man that attracted your attention to him beside the fact that he was moving? Mrs. HILL. I just thought at the time — that's the man that did it. SPECTER. Why did you think that this was the man that did it? Mrs. HILL. I just don't know — I mean — that was my thought. SPECTER. Did you see any weapon in his hand? Mrs. HILL. No; I never saw a weapon during the whole time, in anyone's hand. SPECTER. Did you see that man from the front? Mrs. HILL. As well as I remember, now, when I saw him he was turning and going to the west. SPECTER. Was he in the process of turning when you first saw him? Mrs. HILL. Yes; I would say he was turning. SPECTER. So that you had some view of his front part of his body? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. And did you see any weapon at that time? Mrs. HILL. No, sir; he was three-fourths turned by the time I did see him. SPECTER. Could you see both of his hands at that time? Mrs. HILL. No. SPECTER. Could you see one of his hands at that time? Mrs. HILL. No; I do not even remember seeing his hands. SPECTER. I mean, if he was turning, his hands would have been visible, wouldn't they? Mrs. HILL. They surely would have been. SPECTER. So, what you are saying is, you don't have any recollection of seeing his hands? Mrs. HILL. I have no recollection — that's right SPECTER. But from the position of his body, his hands would have been in the position where they could have been observed? Mrs. HILL. That's right — surely. SPECTER. And do you have any recollection of observing any weapon in either hand? Mrs. HILL. No; I never saw a weapon the whole time. SPECTER. Had you moved from point "A" at the time you first saw him? Mrs. HILL. That's the reason I ran across the street. SPECTER. Did you see him while you were at point "A"? Mrs. HILL. Do you mean prior to the shots? Yes; I saw him, that's the reason why I went across the street. SPECTER. So, you saw him when you were at point "A"? Mrs. HILL. That's right — that's the reason I left that spot. SPECTER. And he was at point "C" when you first saw him? Mrs. HILL That's right. SPECTER. Did he move before you moved? Mrs. HILL. His moving made me start after him. SPECTER. So, he did move before you moved? Mrs. HILL. Yes; and as I came across the street — as I said — I never did see Mrs. Kennedy get up or anything, because when I ran across the street, the first motorcycle that was right behind her nearly hit me turning around, because I looked up in his face and he was looking all around. SPECTER. You mean the policeman? Mrs. HILL. Yes; and I don't think he ever did see me. I just looked at him and dodged then because I thought his wheel was going to hit me, and I don't think he ever did see me, and I ran across through there and started up the hill. When I looked down on the ground, I mean, as I was running up the hill to catch that man, I looked down and saw some red stuff and I thought, "Oh, they got him, he's bleeding," and this is embarrassing, but it turned out to be Koolade or some sort of red drink. SPECTER. You thought they had gotten the man who was running away? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. You thought that perhaps the second burst of shots you heard were being directed toward him by the Secret Service? Mrs. HILL. I just thought, "Oh, goodness, the Secret Service is shooting back." SPECTER. Can you describe what that man looked like? Mrs. HILL. He wasn't SPECTER. How tall was he? Mrs. HILL. He wasn't very tall. SPECTER. Was he more than 5 feet tall, or can you give me any meaningful description of him? Mrs. HILL. Well, yes; but I don't want to. SPECTER. Why is that? Mrs. HILL. Well, because I had told several people and I also said it that day down there and the person that I described, and I am fully aware that his whereabouts have been known at all times, and that it seems that I am merely using a figure and converting it to my story, but the person that I saw looked a lot like — I would say the general build as I would think Jack Ruby would from that position. But I have talked with the FBI about this and I told them I realized that his whereabouts had been covered at all times and of course I didn't — at that time I didn't realize that the shots were coming from the building. I frankly thought they were coming from the knoll. SPECTER. Why did you think they were coming from the knoll? Mrs. HILL. That was just my idea where they were coming from. SPECTER. Would you draw the knoll on the picture, where you mean by the knoll? Mrs. HILL. This area in front of the Book Depository — it's right here. SPECTER. Just draw me a circle as to where you had a general impression the shots were coming from. Mrs. HILL This is a hill and it was like they were coming from right in there. That's when I looked up and saw that man and all the rest of the people were stunned and not moving in that area and yet he was getting out of there — I thought that probably he had done it, and so I went to catch him, for some reason. SPECTER. Now, did you have a conscious impression of the source of the first shot that you heard, that is, where it came from? Mrs. HILL. Well, evidently I didn't because the only conscious recollection I have of that — I mean — until all this other came out — I had always thought that they came from the knoll. SPECTER. Did you have any conscious impression of where the second shot came from? Mrs. HILL. No. SPECTER. Any conscious impression of where this third shot came from? Mrs. HILL. Not any different from any of them. I thought it was just people shooting from the knoll — I did think there was more than one person shooting. SPECTER. You did think there was more than one person shooting? Mrs. HILL. Yes, sir. SPECTER. What made you think that? Mrs. HILL. The way the gun report sounded and the difference in the way they were fired — the timing. SPECTER. What was your impression as to the source of the second group of shots which you have described as the fourth, perhaps the fifth, and perhaps the sixth shot? Mrs. HILL. Well, nothing, except that I thought that they were fired by someone else. SPECTER. And did you have any idea where they were coming from? Mrs. HILL. No; as I said, I thought they were coming from the general direction of that knoll. SPECTER. Well, did you think that the Secret Service was firing them from that knoll? Mrs. HILL. I said I didn't know — I really don't. SPECTER. You just had the general impression that shots were coming from the knoll? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. And you had the general impression that the Secret Service was firing the second group of shots at the man who fired the first group of shots? Mrs. HILL. That's right. SPECTER. But you had no specific impression as to the source of those shots? Mrs. HILL. No. SPECTER. Did you get a very good look at that man, who you say was starting to run? Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, when I looked down at this red stuff on the ground, I said, "Oh," you know, to myself, "they hit him." You know, I was going to follow that, and when I looked up again, I looked all around and I couldn't see him anywhere and I kept running toward the train tracks and I looked all around out there and I couldn't see him — I looked everywhere and I heard someone yelling something about — it was just this voice that was yelling, "It looks like he got away," or something — I thought I had been right, you know, that he had really gone up there and he had gotten away some way in the tracks or had gone around behind the Depository, and so, I didn't know where he had gone. By that time I saw policemen — where he had gone. By that time I saw policemen — some were coming off of their motorcycles just around the curb bare — just at the underpass here, and of course, the motorcade sped away and the policemen were coming from all sorts of different directions, people were closing in, and all I could think of was, I want to get out of here fast. I don't want to be caught by anybody. I don't want to be in on anything," and everytime anybody would come toward me I would go another way until I got off of that hill back up there where the tracks were. SPECTER. Did you run up toward the hill? Mrs. HILL. Yes; I ran up toward the railroad tracks. SPECTER. Let me draw the triple underpass there, and you ran up to what point — where? About the point of "D" here? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. Why did you run up there — after the man? Mrs. HILL. I was still looking for him. I didn't know where he had gone. I heard lots of people yelling, "Did he get away, did he get away, and which way did he go." SPECTER. You were trying to catch him? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. But you couldn't find him any more? Mrs. HILL. No; I just couldn't find him again. When I stopped to look down at the grass, at this red stuff and when I looked back up, by that time everyone was screaming and moving around. SPECTER. And where were you when you looked down at the ground? Point it out to me on the diagram. Mrs. HILL. The steps that go up to this colonnade thing fight there and I saw it right about here. SPECTER. Well, mark it with the letter "E" there. Mrs. HILL. All right. SPECTER. Now, a moment ago you said you didn't want to say anything more about the identity of the man. Why did you tell me that, Mrs. Hill? Mrs. HILL. Well, because I have had an awful lot of fun made of me over being a witness in this and I'm real tired of it. SPECTER. Who made fun of you? Mrs. HILL. Well, quite a lot of people. SPECTER. Anybody connected with the official investigation in the case? Mrs. HILL. No, oh, no; it was just people, but people that I know. SPECTER. All right, and why have they made fun of you, because of your identification of who that man was? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. Any other reason? Mrs. HILL. Yes — I saw a dog in the car. They kept asking me, and I even gave that out on a radio or TV interview that I had seen a dog in the car. SPECTER. In which car? Mrs. HILL. Between the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and they kept asking me what kind of a dog and I said, "I don't know, I wasn't interested in what was in the seat," but I said, "It was white and fuzzy," and I said, "It was something white and kind of fuzzy and it was in the seat between them," and I said, "I just got to thinking — it must be a small dog," because I had remarked to my girl friend as they were taking us in the police station, I said, "Why?" I said, "I could see Liz Taylor or the Gabors traveling with a bunch of dogs, but I can't see the Kennedys traveling with dogs. Why would they have a dog with them on tour?" And, when we remarked about that she and I both — and I said, "Did you see it? What kind of a dog was it? Why were they taking a dog?" I found out later that it was those roses in the seat, but I knew they were looking at something and I just barely glanced and I saw this. SPECTER. Is there any other reason people made fun of you? Mrs. HILL. Well, basically, the people that made fun of me was my husband, and, of course, that was because — does this have to go in the record? SPECTER. Yes; only in the sense that we are putting everything on the record. This really isn't too important but it is the best procedure to follow, that everything be written down. Mrs. HILL. Well. SPECTER. In a situation of this sort. Mrs. HILL Well, because I talked with an Oklahoma twang, and called Mrs. Kennedy "Jackie" and I said, "He pitched forward in Jackie's lap," and I just didn't rehearse it and do it right at all, because I didn't know it was going to be taken down. SPECTER. And those are the reasons your husband made fun of you? Mrs. HILL. Yes; and because I saw a dog and he was thoroughly hilarious when he found out that it was roses in the back seat and that I had seen a dog, and he said, "Of all people in the United States you would have to see a dog." SPECTER. Has anybody made fun of you besides your husband? Mrs. HILL. No; not really, but he's done enough for a whole bunch of people. SPECTER. Now, going back to the question of the description of this man, can you describe him in any more detail than you already have? Mrs. HILL. No; I haven't — I can't. SPECTER. His height you said was about the height of Jack Ruby? Mrs. HILL. That's right. SPECTER. How about his weight? Mrs. HILL. That's the only thing — I would say — he certainly wasn't any bigger than Jack Ruby. SPECTER. Was he smaller than Jack Ruby? Mrs. HILL. He could have been smaller. SPECTER. How about — was he wearing a hat? Mrs. HILL. Yes; I said he was wearing a hat. SPECTER. Was he wearing a top coat? Mrs. HILL. Yes; an overcoat. SPECTER. And was he wearing a tie, could you tell? Mrs. HILL. I didn't notice. It was a brown, I mean. I just got the impression of a brown hat. SPECTER. Can you give me an estimate of his age? Mrs. HILL. I would say the man was middle aged. or say, I would say 40. SPECTER. Was he a white man or a Negro? Mrs. HILL. He was a white man. SPECTER. Can you describe him in any other way to me? Mrs. HILL. No; I can't. SPECTER. Do you think he was, in fact, Jack Ruby? Mrs. HILL. That, I don't know. SPECTER. Now, have you told me all that you can recollect about this man and your reason for moving toward him? Mrs. HILL. Yes. as far as I know. SPECTER. Now, you were at point "D," what did you do after being at point "D," which we have marked on the diagram? Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, the policemen were coming by that time from different areas, coming and closing this place off. and I was dodging them, trying to get back across the street. SPECTER. Back across Elm Street? Mrs. HILL. That's right. SPECTER. And did you in fact dodge them? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. And get back across Elm Street? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did you do next? Mrs. HILL. There was a man holding Mary's arm and she was crying and he had hold of her camera trying to take it with him. SPECTER. Who was that? Mrs. HILL. Featherstone of the Times Herald, and— SPECTER. Dallas Times Herald? Mrs. HILL. That's right. I ran up there and told him we had to leave. She had been impressing upon me for an hour and a half — we hadn't even gone down to see the President that day — we had been doing other things and we got down there and we just decided we would stay, but she had been impressing upon me for an hour and a half, the whole time we had been there. that we had to beat the traffic out of there, and she knows her way around real well. so I knew she could get out and we could beat the traffic, and we were just going to run for the car as fast as we could. It was parked up here on Houston. We were going to run and get out of there before the people started milling around so we wouldn't be in that traffic, and I don't know — we had been talking about it so long and she had drilled me so much, that we must get out of here. and when I came back and I found her crying and him standing there holding her camera, and holding her, I mean holding her by the arm and her camera. and telling her she had to go with him, I started trying to shake his hand loose and grab the camera and telling him that "No, we couldn't go, we had to leave." and I guess, by that time I was beginning — until then I have no conscious feeling of any scaredness or excitement or anything. I mean, you know, it is just like something that's passing in front of you, and I mean, I wasn't worried or upset in any way until I got back there and then I had a sense of urgency, I just knew I wanted to get out of there and all I could think of — and I don't think the full impact of all that had happened really hit me then, because I was just wanting to get out of there and to get away and he kept telling me — he insisted we go with him and he just practically ran us, and he got — they were throwing up a police net around that building at the time, and he just practically ran us up to the court house, I guess it is, and put us in this little room and I don't know why we were so dumb that day unless it was just the sequence of events, that everything was just happening so fast we really didn't even think, but we couldn't leave. He kept standing in front of the door and he would let a cameraman in or someone to interview us and they were shooting things in our faces, and he wouldn't let us out. SPECTER. Who was interviewing you — newspaper reporters? Mrs. HILL. Newspaper reporters and radio and TV people and a man from — a man named Coker John, or John Coker. SPECTER. From where? Mrs. HILL. As I get it, he is a sort of freelance writer, and I think he was on an assignment then. He came out — I'm not sure — I thought it was for Life or Post, but he came in there and he was shooting pictures for — I think he was shooting them for TV, but he came out to the house about 2 weeks later with this bunch of men, about four of them, three or four came out, and that's the second time I saw him, because he said, "You remember me, I saw you in the pressroom that day." SPECTER. Is that Miss Hill or Mrs. Hill? Mrs. HILL. It is Mrs. Hill, and he said "I saw you in the pressroom that day," and I said, "Yes." I remembered, him because I saw him more than any — now, I don't remember where I am here. SPECTER. You were telling me about what happened to you at the county courthouse, and then you digressed from that to tell me about John coming to see you in your home. Let's go back to the county courthouse and let me ask you if you gave an affidavit to the sheriff that day? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. Now, did you talk to anybody from the Federal Government that day? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. Whom did you. talk to? Mrs. HILL. I don't know. SPECTER. What agency was the man from, if you know? Mrs. HILL. Secret Service. SPECTER. How many times have you talked to somebody from the Secret Service in this case altogether? Mrs. HILL. I would say the only time I talked to the Secret Service men was when I was down at the courthouse that afternoon, just before they let us leave, and I think — now, we officially sat down and supposedly were giving a story to the Secret Service men. Mr. HILL. And, did they write down what you were telling them? Mrs. HILL. I don't think they did. SPECTER. Did you sign anything? Mrs. HILL. Oh, well, I signed my statement that I made over in the sheriff's office. SPECTER. Then, how about for the Secret Service men, did you sign anything? Mrs. HILL. No, I don't think we signed anything over there, because they just took us in a little room — SPECTER. What did you tell the Secret Service men? Mrs. HILL. As well as I remember, we talked to so many that day. SPECTER. Well, did you tell everybody about the same thing you have told me here today? Mrs. HILL. Yes, except that I didn't go into that stuff with the shots because no one ever asked me, no one ever detailed it like that, but they were interested that day in those pictures and they got them all from us. SPECTER. Did you talk with the Secret Service men on any occasion after the events on November 22? Mrs. HILL. No. SPECTER. Have you ever talked to anybody else from the Federal Government? Mrs. HILL. The FBI men. SPECTER. On how many occasions? Mrs. HILL. Several. SPECTER. How many, if you remember? Mrs. HILL. I don't recall — I was called two or three times at least after that. SPECTER. Called on the telephone? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER You discussed the matter over the phone with somebody who said he was from the FBI? Mrs. HILL. No; I had that pulled on me and I didn't want to talk until called back down to check to see. SPECTER. Did you talk to somebody from the FBI when you called them back? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. Over the phone? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. On how many occasions? Mrs. HILL. I think two or three times is all I had. SPECTER. Were you ever interviewed in person by the FBI? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. On how many occasions? Mrs. HILL. After that day, I believe only once. SPECTER. And about when was that? Mrs. HILL. Well, it was the other day after I received this letter — no: before I received this letter, and this was last Tuesday, I think, and they came in reference to what Mark Lane had told the Warren Commission. SPECTER. And what did they ask you when they came to see you last Tuesday, that would be a week ago today or the 16th or the 17th? Mrs. HILL. They just had me start over with this story again and they had Mr. Lane's copy and they asked me, you know, if I had said these things and, I read it andtold them that I had said it. SPECTER. Was Mr. Lane's version accurate? Mrs. HILL. It was accurate in that he took down what I said. It was inaccurate in that he had taken it out of context, and, the questions he asked me weren't there, nor were they given. I can see how he could have made what he made out of my statements. SPECTER. When did you talk to Mr. Lane? Mrs. HILL. I talked to him about — approximately 4 or 5 weeks ago. SPECTER. Where did that take place? Mrs. HILL. At New York. SPECTER. Did he call you on the telephone? Mrs. HILL. That's right, and he didn't tell me he was recording this at the time. SPECTER. Did you ever talk to Mark Lane in person? Mrs. HILL. No. SPECTER. Did you ever sign an affidavit for him? Mrs. HILL. No. SPECTER. The only contact you had with him was this one telephone conversation? Mrs. HILL. That's right, and he said he was coming to Dallas the next week and would I talk with him, I said, I told him then — that I guessed so. I didn't know. I mean, because I didn't fully realize what he was doing in this case. SPECTER. And what did you tell him over the telephone? Mrs. HILL. I told him the same story I told you, with the exception that he went further into the day's activities at the police station, and at the courthouse. SPECTER. What else did you tell him about your day's activities at the courthouse? Mrs. HILL. Well, he asked me, you know, he just asked me a lot of questions about that, and I told him that we didn't know that we were in a pressroom. We just knew we were in a courthouse and with police. I mean, this was to us a police station. SPECTER. Tell me all the things that you told, him, in addition to those which you have already told me, that is, tell me all the things you told Mr. Lane, in addition to that you have already testified about. Mrs. HILL. I will, but do you realize I have had to go over this so many times that I don't know who I have told which part to? I really don't. SPECTER. Well, I'll bear that in mind, but do the best you can in telling me all the things you told Mark Lane. Mrs. HILL. Can't you just read my statement? SPECTER. Feel free to smoke — just relax. Mrs. HILL. I would except I don't have one. SPECTER. Just relax if you can. Mrs. HILL. All right, if I can. SPECTER. Off the record. Let the record show that we were taking a brief recess to get the witness a cup of coffee so that she may be more relaxed. May the record show that we have just obtained some coffee and we are proceeding. When we broke for the coffee, I had asked you to tell me all the things you told Mark Lane other than those which you have already testified about Mrs. HILL. Before we go into that — I do want to have you — because I hope that by this time I am through with it, but I do want to tell you about a camera team that came out there to my house that this John Coker was with. SPECTER. On which occasion was that? Mrs. HILL. That is important to me and that is the reason why I digressed and got on that. SPECTER. This occurred, you say, about 2 weeks after the assassination? Mrs. HILL. Say — 10 days. SPECTER. What happened on that occasion? Mrs. HILL. They came out and brought TV cameras and were going to take, and they told me they were not going to tell me the questions that they were going to ask me, that they wanted to get my reactions to their questions, and they set up rather, I would say they set up hypothetical speculations like — could he have been shot from the window, if this is the kind of wound that it would have made? Or, to make this kind of a wound, he had, to have been here, now which, you know — and so I told them and from what I gathered that day, they did not think I had — I had gotten the idea from them, that there was speculation or some reasonable doubt that I — that Oswald did not do all the shooting and that all these shots did not come from the window. SPECTER. You told the newspaper and the television cameramen that? Mrs. HILL. That's what I got from them from the questions they asked me. SPECTER. What answers did you give them to those questions? Mrs. HILL. Well, when they would set up a situation, I would tell them what I thought would have had to happen in that situation. SPECTER. Well, without formulating any questions which would lead you in any way to any conclusions, let me ask you for your best recollection as to what you think occurred, as to the point where the assassin was, if you have any idea on that question? Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said previously, to me at the time the shot came from the knoll, you know. SPECTER. And you have testified to that because of the sound of the shots? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. And also because you saw this man running away. Mrs. HILL. That's right. SPECTER. Do you think perhaps that you had the impression that that came from the knoll exclusively because you saw the man running away? And your reaction that that must have been the man who did the shooting? Mrs. HILL. It could have been very well — it could have been. SPECTER. Now, are there any other factors which led you to think that the shots came from the knoll, factors other than those you have already told me about? Mrs. HILL. Except that I believe these men thought so that night. SPECTER. Well, never mind the men, but focus just on what your reaction was at the time. Mrs. HILL. That's what I thought. At the time I thought that there was mere than one person shooting, as I said before. SPECTER. Well, you have already told me about that and you told me about the source of the knoll, and you told me why you thought that was more than one person, and now, what I'm trying to get at is why you thought they came from the knoll — was it first because the way the shot sounded and secondly. because the man ran away, and then I asked you the second question — did you think perhaps they came from the knoll exclusively because you saw the man run away, and you said you thought that might be the case. Mrs. HILL. Could be. SPECTER. And then I asked you were there any other findings other than those we have already talked about, which would make you think that the shots came from the knoll based on your own personal observations. recollections or impressions. Mrs. HILL. Nothing that comes to mind. SPECTER. Now, is there anything else about that television interview which you consider important? Mrs. HILL. Except for the fact it left me very doubtful and confused. SPECTER. Because they gave you a lot of hypothetical situations, and you didn't know which was which, if you listened to them? Mrs. HILL. That's right — they had some very strange ideas which I have heard here and there voiced by other people. SPECTER. What were they doing basically, asking you to comment on those various theories? Mrs. HILL. I asked why were they coming out here, why would they come to my home, Why was that important, and they said, "Something big is going to break in a little while and we want to put it on first. We want to be ready for it." SPECTER. Did they ever put that television interview on? Mrs. HILL. I have never seen any, but then, I never saw myself on TV either. SPECTER. Is there anything else about that television interview which you now consider important? Mrs. HILL. Well, I know that it has bothered me ever since it happened, and particularly since I have been questioned these other times. SPECTER. By the FBI last week? Mrs. HILL. Yes; and without things of comments, and speculating that I have heard. and remarks that I've gone back over, of happenings that have happened to me that day and as to the way it happened, and frankly, I would either like to say it again or something SPECTER. Like to say what again? Mrs. HILL. I would like to see this telecast or hear that questioning again because there's something about it that keeps in the back of my mind— SPECTER. But you can't put your finger on what it is? Mrs. HILL. No. SPECTER. But you are annoyed or bothered or perplexed with it or confused by that? Mrs. HILL. Yes; I have been. SPECTER. Now, have you told me everything that you have to say about that television interview? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. Now, moving on to the question about Mark Lane, what did you tell him other than that which you have told me here today? Mrs. HILL. He asked me where we were taken and I told him in the press room, that we didn't know it was the pressroom at the time, and that we didn't know we couldn't leave and because they kept standing across the door, and the first time we really we were getting tired of it, I mean, we had been down there quite a while and we were getting tired of it and we wanted to leave and this is what I told him, and so some man came in and offered Mary a sum, I think — say — $10,000 or something like this for this picture. We realized that — they said, "Don't sell the picture." He was a representative of either Post or Life, and they said, "Don't sell that picture until our representatives have contacted you or a lawyer or something." Anyway, we realized at that time we didn't have that picture, that it had been taken from us. I mean, we had let Featherstone look at it, you know, but we told no one they could reproduce it. They said, "Would you let us look at it and see if it could be reproduced?" We said, "Yes; you could look at it," we thought it was — you know, it was fuzzy and everything. but we were wanting to keep them and we suddenly realized we didn't have that picture, and that was quite a bit of money and we were getting pretty excited about it, and Mary was getting scared. SPECTER. Did she eventually sell the picture, by the way? Mrs. HILL. She sold the rights, the publishing rights of it, not the original picture, but they had already — AP and UP had already picked it up because Featherstone stole it. SPECTER. Do you know what she sold those rights for? Mrs. HILL. I think it was $600. SPECTER. What did you tell Mark Lane besides about the picture? Mrs. HILL. This is it. SPECTER. Fine, go ahead. Mrs. HILL. Anyway, when I realized we didn't have that picture and Mary was getting upset about that — by that time I had realized we were in a press room and that he had no right to be holding us and he had no authority and that we could get out of there, and they kept standing in front of the door, and I told him — I said, "Get out." We kept asking him for our picture. and where it was, and he said, "We'll get it back — we'll get it back. And so I jerked away and ran out of the door and as I did, there was a Secret Service man. Now, this I was told — that he was a Secret Service man, and he said, "Do you have a red raincoat?" And, I said, "Yes; it's in yonder. Let me go." I was intent on finding someone to get that picture back and I said as I walked out, "I can get someone big enough to get it back for us." He said, "Does your friend have a blue raincoat?" And I said, "Yes: she's in there." He said, "Here they are," to somebody else and they told us that they had been looking for us. SPECTER. Who told you that? Mrs. HILL. This man. SPECTER. All this you told Mr. Lane? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. Go ahead. Mrs. HILL. And so, then they took us into the police station. Just about that time Sheriff Decker came out and the man was with us and we were telling him why we were in there, why we had been in the pressroom, you know, and why they hadn't been able to find us, because they had thought that Mary had been hit and they were looking for the two women that were standing right by the car with the camera. At that time they didn't know what we were doing down there and why we were right at the car. So, there followed questioning all afternoon long, and he asked me at one time — well, in fact he asked repeatedly if I was held and I told him, "Yes." SPECTER. Who asked you that? Mrs. HILL. Mark Lane. SPECTER. If you were held? Mrs. HILL. Yes; you know if I were held, if I had to stay there and I told him, "Yes," but I told him when we were in the pressroom it was just our own ignorance, really, that was keeping us there and letting the man intimidate us that had no authority. SPECTER. That was a newsman as opposed to the police official? Mrs. HILL. Yes; and I gave Mark Lane his name several times — clearly. I remember clearly that I gave him his name. SPECTER. And what name did you give him? Mrs. HILL. Featherstone of the Times Herald, and so after we got out of there and I talked with a man — SPECTER. Now, you are continuing to tell me everything you told Mark Lane? Mrs. HILL. That's right, and I talked with this man, a Secret Service man, and I said, "Am I a kook or what's wrong with me?" I said. "They keep saying three shots — three shots," and I said, "I know I heard more. I heard from four to six shots anyway." He said, "Mrs. Hill, we were standing at the window and we heard more shots also, but we have three wounds and we have three bullets, three shots is all that we are willing to say right now." SPECTER. Now, did that Secret Service man try to suggest to you that there were only three shots in any other way than that? Mrs. HILL. That's all he said to me. He didn't say, "You have to say three shots" — he didn't tell me what to say. SPECTER. He didn't try to intimidate you or coerce you in any way? Mrs. HILL. No; that's all he said. SPECTER. All right. Go ahead and tell me what you told Mark Lane. Mrs. HILL. I told him — I was asked by them. SPECTER. Do you know who that Secret Service man was, by the way? Mrs. HILL. No; I don't. I don't know — not any name that day except Decker and the President. SPECTER. All right, go ahead and tell me everything else you said. Mrs. HILL. Then, he asked me — I was asked did I know that a bullet struck at my feet and I said, "No; I didn't." And he said, "What do you think that dust was?" And I said, "I didn't see any dust." And I told Mark Lane that the Times Herald did run a picture in the paper of a concrete scar where a bullet had hit right where we were standing, which is evident to anybody that had an issue of the Times Herald. SPECTER. Did you see that concrete? Mrs. HILL. I didn't go back down there. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not a bullet did hit that concrete? Mrs. HILL. As I say, I saw the picture in the newspaper. SPECTER. Aside from seeing it in the newspaper, do you know anything about that? Mrs. HILL. No; other than what the man said he saw out of the window of the courthouse, the Secret Service man said and it struck at my feet, other than that — I don't know. SPECTER. What else did you tell Mark Lane? Mrs. HILL So, he asked me, "Did you have to stay down there or did you stay of your own accord?" And I said, "No; we had to stay there." He said something — he said, "Were you threatened or something?" And I told him I wasn't threatened, but — he said, "How do you know you were held?" Or something like that, and I said, "Because I tried to leave twice. At one time I saw people I knew on the street and I was going to go down and talk to them and I went down and they came down and got me, and another time I went down when the evening edition of the paper hit the street and two men," and I told him, I did not tell him they were Secret Service men, but they were men from the sheriff's office. There were some kind of deputy or something that came down and took me back and they were not playing. They meant to take me back. They did take my arms and I knew I was going, because I just kept standing on the corner saying, "No; I don't want to go back yet. Please let me stay down here just a little while." They did make us go back in there. SPECTER. Where were they from? Mrs. HILL. They were from the sheriff's office, they were just deputies — they weren't FBI or Secret Service. SPECTER. Was it after that that you gave the affidavit to the sheriff? Mrs. HILL Yes. SPECTER. What else did you tell Mark Lane? Mrs. HILL. Well, I told him that my story had already been given. that they had an affidavit down there, and he said, "Were you ever at any time — " I think he said, "Were you ever at any time told not to say something or this, that, and the other," and I said, "The only thing that I was told not to say was to not mention the man running," and he said, "And why?" And I said, "Well, it was an FBI or Secret Service that told me not to, but they came in to me just right after I was taken — I was in there in the pressroom, and told me in fact — I told him it was Featherstone that told me. He said, "You know you were wrong about seeing a man running." He said, "You didn't." SPECTER. Who told you you were wrong — Featherstone or Lane? Mrs. HILL. Featherstone. And I told him that — I told Mr. Lane that Mr. Featherstone had told me that, and I said, "But I did," and he said, "No; don't say that any more on the air." SPECTER. Who said, "Don't say that any more on the air?" Mrs. HILL. Featherstone; and I made it clear to Mark Lane, because I mentioned his name several times, and he said, "He has told me not to tell anyone" SPECTER. You mean Featherstone? Mrs. HILL. Yes; that the shots had come from a window up in the Depository and for me not to say that any more, that I was wrong about it, and I said "Very well," and so I just didn't say any more that I ran across the street to see the man, and that's the part — as much as I can get from when the FBI men came out and talked to me the other day, that is the part mostly that I got that was out of context, because what he gave the Commission was basically true. SPECTER. What Mark Lane gave the Commission? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. Except for what — Mrs. HILL. Except he didn't have his comments in there. SPECTER. What were his comments? Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, the way he would ask me things I can see why I gave the answers I did, which to me are the truth, but I can see, taken out of context, why he or the Commission, well, not how he, because he was listening to me — how the Commission could take it to mean maybe something else? SPECTER. Did he repeat then to the Commission how the Commission could take them to mean maybe something else? Mrs. HILL. Yes — SPECTER. Did he repeat them to the Commission out of context — did Mark Lane repeat them out of context? Mrs. HILL. To me they were — to me they were — it was my comments and it wasn't everything I said. SPECTER. Have you now related all of the ways that Mark Lane took your comments out of context? Mrs. HILL. So far as I know. SPECTER. Now, is there anything else about your conversation with Mark Lane which you think would be helpful to the Commission to know about? Mrs. HILL. No. SPECTER. Now, before getting on to Mark Lane, we were talking about the times you had been interviewed by the authorities and you had told me you were interviewed a couple of times by telephone by the FBI when you called back to verify it was the FBI and about a single interview you had with the FBI a week ago today, which would have been the 17th of March? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. Now, have you had any additional interviews with any Federal authorities before today, other than those which you have already told me about? Mrs. HILL. No; not that I remember. SPECTER. Now, for the record, Mrs. Hill, I'm going to ask you some questions about your own background — first of all I would like you to tell me how old you are, for the record? Mrs. HILL. Thirty-three. SPECTER. And where is your home area — Dallas or some other part of the country or what? Mrs. HILL. Where am I from? SPECTER. Where are you from? Mrs. HILL. Oklahoma. SPECTER. And what city in Oklahoma? Mrs. HILL. Originally Wewoka and later Oklahoma City. SPECTER. And are you married? Mrs. HILL. Yes. SPECTER. And is there any unusual status with respect to your being married at this moment? Mrs. HILL. I am in the process of getting a divorce. SPECTER. And how many children have you? Mrs. HILL. I have two — a boy 12 and a gift 10. SPECTER. And what is your educational background? Mrs. HILL. I was graduated from Wewoka High School and Oklahoma Baptist University in Shawnee. SPECTER. And what year did you graduate from high school? Mrs. HILL. 1948. SPECTER. And what year from college? Mrs. HILL. 1954, after two babies later. SPECTER. And is that a 4-year college? Mrs. HILL. That's right. SPECTER. And how are you occupied at the present time? Mrs. HILL. I taught 7 years in Oklahoma City public schools and for the past year and a half I have been doing substitute teaching for the Dallas Board of Education. SPECTER. And what is your maiden name? Mrs. HILL. Lollis. SPECTER. And what is your husband's occupation? Mrs. HILL. He is a consultant for Science Research Associates, lately IBM. SPECTER. And is there anything else that you would care to tell me which you think might be of aid to the Commission in its investigation? Mrs. HILL. No. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming and giving your deposition. Mrs. HILL. Am I completely through with the Commission? SPECTER. I think this will be the end of it — we have all of the records, and to the best of my expectation — yes; but you could be called anytime. You have both the pleasure and the discomfort, but the distinction of having been an eye witness. Mrs. HILL. Well, I know, I have always been rather — I mean, it's not something you are — you are not proud to say it, but I think it was part of history and I was glad I was there, but because I got publicity, because — I think my children will be interested to know that someday that I was in it some way. SPECTER. Well, let me say, as to the best of my knowledge there are no further plans for the Commission to call you again. This transcript will be reviewed by me in Washington and by my colleagues in Washington and it is possible that you :may be contacted again. Perhaps I might talk to you again by telephone or perhaps the FBI, or it is even conceivable the Commission might want to hear from you, yourself. in Washington, but my best estimate of the situation right now is that we have the basic information from you which we need. Mrs. HILL. I told the FBI the other day I did not want to go to Washington. I don't think I can take any more laughing at. SPECTER. Well, we won't call on you unless it is concluded that it is absolutely necessary. Mrs. HILL. Good. I was hoping this would do it. SPECTER. All right. Thank you very much. Mrs. HILL. Thank you. SPECTER. For the purposes of the record, this diagram which was used during the deposition of Mrs. Hill will be marked Hill Exhibit No. 5. (Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Hill Exhibit No. 5, for identification.) </DIVISION2><DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2>P. Willis - retired Air Force Major</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> TESTIMONY OF PHILLIP L. WILLIS The testimony of Phillip L. Willis was taken at 2:30 p.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex. by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. LIEBELER. Would you raise your right hand [standing]? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? WILLIS. I do. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the rules of the Commission's procedure, you are entitled to have an attorney present if you wish to have him here. You are entitled to 3 days' notice for the hearing, and you are entitled to exercise whatever privileges there are available to you as far as not answering questions are concerned. I assume that you are prepared to go ahead with your testimony without an attorney present, because you are here without one? WILLIS. Absolutely. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? WILLIS. Phillip L. Willis. LIEBELER. What is your address, sir? WILLIS. 2824 Ava Lane, Dallas 27, Tex. LIEBELER. When were you born? WILLIS. August 2, 1918. LIEBELER. Where? WILLIS. Kaufman County, Tex. LIEBELER. Have you lived in Texas throughout most of your life? WILLIS. All my life, with the exception of my military service. LIEBELER. How long have you lived here in Dallas? WILLIS. Since April 1, 1960. LIEBELER. What business are you engaged in, or by whom are you employed? WILLIS. I am a retired major, Air Force, disabled World War II, and I am on disability retirement from the Air Force. I am an independent real estate broker. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that you were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963, at the time of the assassination; is that correct? WILLIS. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Can you tell me where you were and what you saw happen, and what you did at that time? WILLIS. I had a driver drop my family and I in the parkway so that we could have a chance to get a good view of the President's party, having taken my children out of school for the occasion. We were told by the policeman that they were coming down from Main Street approaching the area on Main, and I stood at the corner of Main and Houston and watched them approach. I am an amateur photographer, a poor one, but we wanted to get some good colored pictures of the President. So I photographed the President coming in front of the courthouse and making the turn onto Houston Street. LIEBELER. Where did you station yourself at first? Were you at the corner, you say? WILLIS. At the corner of Houston and Main. LIEBELER. So that you saw him — WILLIS. Across from the county jail on the parkway there near the esplanade. LIEBELER. So you saw the motorcade coming down Main Street, did you? WILLIS. Yes; we could see it for a block or two. LIEBELER. Then the motorcade turned onto Houston and you took some pictures at that time? WILLIS. I remained there until I got the shot of the President approaching the turn onto Houston Street, and being a personal friend of then Vice President Lyndon Johnson, we were anxious to get him in one, and did. Then I took a picture as they turned onto Houston Street. Then another one from the rear after they proceeded down Houston approaching the turn they were to take onto Elm. Then I immediately ran across the plaza, raced over to Elm Street and stationed myself on the curb in front of the Texas School Book. LIEBELER. You were there when the motorcade made a left turn on Houston and went down Elm Street; is that correct? WILLIS. Yes; and I photographed the President. I was standing in front of the curb, as is shown in Life magazine, on the edge of the street, and I photographed the presidential car at not more than 10 feet because I didn't get the front or the rear of the car. I just got the occupants in the center. I was that close. LIEBELER. Now you have indicated that you are depicted in a picture which is in the John F. Kennedy Memorial Edition of Life magazine in a picture that you said you were in the upper left-hand corner of page 4; is that correct? WILLIS. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. You are the individual who stands almost directly behind the first motorcycle policeman in that picture, and you are shown with a camera? WILLIS. With my camera raised; yes, sir. The little girl in the red dress and white scarf and coat is my daughter. LIEBELER. The farthest person in the right in the back of that picture? WILLIS. The farthest person in that picture. LIEBELER. Now did you stand at that particular spot the entire time, or did you move down Elm Street? WILLIS. No, sir; I took that picture just seconds before the first shot was fired, to get back close up. Then I started down the street, and the regular weekly edition of Life magazine came out and shows me in about three different pictures going down the street. Then my next shot was taken at the very — in fact, the shot caused me to squeeze the camera shutter, and I got a picture of the President as he was hit with the first shot. So instantaneous, in fact, that the crowd hadn't had time to react. LIEBELER. Now you have, as I understand it, a series of 12 slides, which apparently have been prepared by something called Phil Willis Enterprises, and which I understand is being marketed, at least in the Dallas area? WILLIS. We haven't done anything with them as yet, but I am the only one, I am told, who has a complete set of the prints coveting the last 25 seconds of the President's life and the assassination and the tragedy following. I was so shocked I didn't sell any, like everyone did at the moment. And the same people who bought those said they would have been invaluable had I brought them to them, but it didn't dawn on me to do that. And later there has been so many requests because of the historical nature, that we felt compelled to make them available to the public. LIEBELER. I have here a picture that has been marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1, which I now show you and I suggest to you that it is one of the pictures that is a picture made from one of the slides. WILLIS. I made that picture. LIEBELER. You made that picture yourself? WILLIS. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. That is the same as slide No. 5? In your series of slides? WILLIS. That is correct LIEBELER. Can you tell us when that picture was made? WILLIS. That picture was made at the very instant that the first shot was fired. As a matter of fact, the fellow standing on the ledge under the right-hand corner of the Stemmons Highway sign is a gentleman who took the last pictures that appeared in Life, and his pictures showed that this instant with this sign in between the photographer and the President, shows that at this instant he had already grabbed his throat, This was pointed out to the Secret Service and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Picture No. 2 will verify that, in Life magazine. You see the highway sign that he has the rear of, is the one I have the front of. And as he approached this same sign in this film, he has already grabbed his throat. That is verified by that fact. LIEBELER. Referring to the pictures on page 4 of the memorial edition of Life magazine. Picture No. 1 shows you standing, as we have already indicated, standing back with your camera? WILLIS. Picture 2 shows the President just as the car comes from behind this sign, and it shows that he has already reached for his throat at that time. LIEBELER. The sign in question is one that reads "Stemmons Freeway Keep Right", and the front of that sign appears in the picture that you took which is marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1? WILLIS. The only one in that vicinity, It has to be the same one. You will also note in my first picture, he is facing the outside of the street and smiling and waving, and he had already turned his head the other way when I have the picture in question here from the rear. That same picture from the other side of the street in Life shows he has grabbed his throat when they proceeded to that point of the sign in question. LIEBELER. Go through that again. I didn't understand it. Let me remind you of this. When you mention a picture, let's try and refer to them by numbers, because if you do that, I won't have to repeat it again, because we have to get the numbers down on the record. You were making a point just a minute ago about something that I didn't understand. You were referring to some of the pictures in Life magazine, and also to Hudson Exhibit No. 1, which is the picture you took. WILLIS. All right, sir, Hudson Exhibit No. 1, which is a copy of the picture I took, shows the President's car had proceeded almost past the "Stemmons Freeway Keep Right" sign. Referring back to panel No. 2 of the Life Memorial Edition of Life magazine on page 4, it shows that Mrs. Kennedy has her hand over her mouth, and the President has already grabbed his throat. That picture shows that his car has not passed the Stemmons sign completely. LIEBELER. Yes. WILLIS. Referring back to Hudson Exhibit No. 1, which I took, the President's car in fact has passed the Stemmons sign, and he has turned the opposite direction from the previous picture that I took close up, and it proves without question that at this instant the President had been hit. LIEBELER. Now, you mentioned the picture that you took, the other picture that you took close up. Is that included in your set of slides here? WILLIS. Yes, sir; it is slide No. 4, which you see doesn't include the front or the rear of the President's car, but the center. That is proving how close it was. LIEBELER. Picture No. 4 in your group of slides was taken shortly before picture No. 5 was taken, is that right? WILLIS. Yes, sir; not more than 3 seconds. LIEBELER. Do you know which picture you were taking or you took at the time that is shown here in panel No. 1 of this memorial edition of Life magazine? WILLIS. Yes, sir; the number just mentioned, slide No. 4, the close-up of the President directly in front of the Texas School Book Depository. LIEBELER. Now from the time that you took No. 4, and when you took No. 4, you were standing as shown in picture No. 1 in Life magazine? WILLIS. Correct. LIEBELER. What did you do before you took No. 5, which we have marked here as Hudson Exhibit No. 1? Did you move down the street, or were you standing in the same place, or do you remember? WILLIS. No, sir; as human nature would guide in an instance of this importance, I moved down the street slightly to try to get another view, and, of course, I had the camera looking through the viewfinder to try to get another picture of him before he went out of range. I moved as far as I could within that 3 seconds. LIEBELER. So you are not able to tell us exactly where you were when you took the picture that we have here as Hudson Exhibit No. 1, but it was a little bit farther on down Elm Street, still on the grassy area described by Elm and Main Street; is that correct? WILLIS. Yes, sir; I can verify that where I was going back to Life magazine again, because this picture No. 2 on page 4 of the John F. Kennedy Memorial Edition of Life, there is a tree in the background. The only tree in that immediate vicinity on that side of the street. And the shadow of that tree is shown in slide No. 5 that I took, which would show my position. LIEBELER. Yes. I see you would have to study just from where the sun was coming, but it could be determined where you were standing, and we could also apparently determine it by lining it up with across the street? WILLIS. Off the record. Let me say this. You see in No. 1 shot where I am shown, you can see this shadow on the ground from this tree. This little bush —there is the shadow from the tree. This tree is on the ground, so if you look in my picture here, you can see the shadow in that picture. So you see that I did move down approximately this far. LIEBELER. All right. Now, you are certain that the first shot was fired at approximately the time or shortly at approximately the time you took the picture that has been marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1; is that right? WILLIS. I am positive. LIEBELER. Do you remember hearing the shot? WILLIS. Absolutely. I, having been in World War II, and being a deer hunter hobbyist, I would recognize a high-powered rifle immediately. LIEBELER. Did you recognize this as a high-powered rifle? WILLIS. Absolutely. LIEBELER. And you heard it just about the time you took the picture that has been marked? WILLIS. That's right LIEBELER. Prior to the time you took the picture, which is marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1? WILLIS. Absolutely LIEBELER. How many shots were fired altogether, Mr. Willis? WILLIS. Three shots. LIEBELER. Do you have any question about that at all? WILLIS. No, sir. LIEBELER. Did you follow the car down Elm Street after you took the picture, which we have marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1? WILLIS. I proceeded down the street and didn't take any other pictures instantly, because the three shots were fired approximately about 2 seconds apart, and I knew my little daughters were rushing along beside the Presidential car, and I was immediately concerned about them, and I was screaming for them to come back, and they didn't hear me. But I was concerned about them immediately, because I knew something tragic had happened, and the shots didn't ring out long like a rifle shot that is fired into midair in a distance. I knew it hit something, and it couldn't have been a firecracker or anything like that so it impressed me, I remember, and after I found my daughters, I saw they were heading back toward their mother. LIEBELER. Where was she? WILLIS. She was back in the crowd looking through this concrete structure. How do you refer to that? LIEBELER. Well, your wife was back closer toward the intersection of Main Street and Houston Street? WILLIS. No; it is a very short distance when you stand in here. No; that is the one across the street — no; here she was. She was in between Main and Elm Streets, but real near Elm Street. In fact, she was only a few feet back from my daughters. She wasn't more than 40 feet from where the President was hit. LIEBELER. So she was toward the triple underpass from the concrete structure on Dealey Plaza? WILLIS. She was inside the concrete structure looking through an opening. LIEBELER. Looking toward the triple underpass? WILLIS. Toward the Texas School Book Depository where she had a clear view, and there were surprisingly few people there at that time — at that moment — and none in between her and the street to block her vision. LIEBELER. Did you actually observe the President when he was hit in the head? WILLIS. No, sir; I did not. I couldn't see that well, and I was more concerned about the shots coming from that building. The minute the third shot was fired, I screamed, hoping the policeman would hear me, ring that building because it had to come from there. Being directly across the street from the building, made it much more clear to those standing there than the people who were on the side of the street where the building was. LIEBELER. So you thought you had picked out a particular building at the time when you heard the shots? WILLIS. Absolutely. LIEBELER. What building was that? WILLIS. The Texas School Book Depository Building. LIEBELER. You were pretty sure? WILLIS. I felt certain. I even looked for smoke, and I knew it came from high up. LIEBELER. How did you know that? WILLIS. I even observed the clock on top of the building, it was 12:33 when I looked up there. LIEBELER. The clock on top of the School Book Depository? WILLIS. There is a Hertz sign on top of the building, and it alternates the time of day and the temperature, and when I looked up, it was 12:33, and the temperature was 68 degrees, as shown in my slide on No. 12. LIEBELER. So you did not actually observe the President at the time he was hit in the head? WILLIS. No, sir; I was just taking a picture of him, and the presidential party in the car come through my viewfinder and my camera. But my little daughter ran back and said, "Oh, Daddy, they have shot our President. His whole head blew up, and it looked like a red halo." LIEBELER. Which one? Is this the girl that is here today? WILLIS. The little one was the one that made that remark. My youngest daughter, Rosemary. The one that is with me today also saw it, and she went back and told her mother the same thing. And her mother said, "Yes; I saw it." LIEBELER. Now, did you see anything hitting in the street along the President's car as it went down Elm Street? WILLIS. No, sir; I did not. LIEBELER. You say there were three shots fired? You heard three shots fired? WILLIS. Yes. LIEBELER. Did you think that the President had been hit by the first shot? WILLIS. I didn't really know, sir. LIEBELER. You couldn't tell whether he was hit by the first shot? You couldn't tell whether he had been hit by the first shot or the second shot or the third shot, or by how many shots he had been hit? WILLIS. No, sir; except this one thing might be worthy of mention. When I took slide No. 4, the President was smiling and waving and looking straight ahead, and Mrs. Kennedy was likewise smiling and facing more to my side of the street. When the first shot was fired, her head seemed to just snap in that direction, and he more or less faced the other side of the street and leaned forward, which caused me to wonder, although I could not see anything positively. It did cause me to wonder. LIEBELER. You say that the President looked toward his left; is that correct? Toward the side of Elm Street that you are standing on, or which way? WILLIS. In slide No. 4 he was looking pretty much toward-straight ahead, and she was looking more to the left, which would be my side of the street. Then when the first shot was fired, she turned to the right toward him and he more or less slumped forward, and it caused me to wonder if he were hit, although I couldn't say. (Discussion off the record.) LIEBELER. In order to clarify some of the discussion we have had about the various number of slides, I want to mark a set of your slides as Willis Exhibit No. 1 and I have initialed a set of these, Willis, with my own initials, and I will ask you to do the same thing for the purpose of identification so we know what we are talking about when we refer to this exhibit, (Mr. Willis marks initials.) LIEBELER. We have already established that the picture that has been marked as Hudson's Exhibit No. 1 is a print made from the negative or from slide No. 5 on Willis Exhibit No. 1; is that correct? WILLIS. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Did you have occasion to look up toward the railroad tracks that go across the triple underpass at any time, at about ,the time the President was shot? WILLIS. Yes; I did, after the third shot was fired. LIEBELER. Was there anybody up there? Did you see anybody up there on those railroad tracks? WILLIS. Yes, sir; I had noticed before the President's arrival that there were spectators up there, but there were also policemen up there. LIEBELER. You did see policemen up there? WILLIS. Yes, sir; there were definitely policemen up there among the spectators. LIEBELER. About how many spectators would you say were up there? Was there a big crowd? WILLIS. No, sir; there was no big crowd in the area, actually. But I would say, and this is strictly a wild guess, maybe 2 dozen. LIEBELER. Did you see any evidence of any shots having been fired from that direction? WILLIS. No, sir; there was no doubt in my mind. I saw people falling on the ground and police officers racing over toward a concrete wall. LIEBELER. Across the street from Elm Street? WILLIS. Across the street from Elm Street on the same side as the School Book Depository, which goes down the hill toward the underpass, and the policemen started going over there, called to see if someone, evidently thinking it came from that direction, and then is when I started to ring this building. I knew it came from high above directly across the street from me, and that is the one thing I was absolutely positive about. LIEBELER. You made that judgment from the sound of the shots? WILLIS. From the sound, absolutely. And this may be verified by the fact that I took several pictures of the crowd immediately around that building. LIEBELER. Yes; I notice. WILLIS. I had no doubt about that, because I was that certain in my own mind. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any other questions about these pictures, unless you can think of something else that you think I should have asked you about, that I have forgotten about. WILLIS. In slide No. 6, people were still on the ground and I took that picture, knowing that the party had come to a temporary halt before proceeding on to the underpass, and I have an arrow there which shows the back of the Secret Service agent climbing onto the back of the presidential car. LIEBELER. That is that far in the background, way in the back of the picture, or down toward the underpass of the street? WILLIS. Yes; that would be the background. LIEBELER. I think I would like to ask your daughter about three or four questions about what she saw of it. We might just bring her in while you are still here. </DIVISION2><DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2>L. Willis - young student</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> TESTIMONY OF LINDA KAY WILLIS The testimony of Linda Kay Willis was taken at 3:15 p.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand and I will swear you as a witness. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Miss WILLIS. I do. LIEBELER. As I told your father, I am an attorney for the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, and he has told me that you were with him in the vicinity of the School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination, and I wanted to ask you two or three questions about that. First of all, would you state your name for the reporter, please? Miss WILLIS. Linda Kay Willis. LIEBELER. How old are you? Miss WILLIS. I will be 15, July 29. LIEBELER. Your father has told us that you were out in front of the School Book Depository Building along with your sister on the day of the assassination, and your mother and father were also there, is that correct? Miss WILLIS. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Did you hear any shots, or what you later learned to be shots, as the motorcade came past you there? Miss WILLIS. Yes; I heard one. Then there was a little bit of time, and then there were two real fast bullets together. When the first one hit, well, the President turned from waving to the people, and he grabbed his throat, and he kind of slumped forward, and then I couldn't tell where the second shot went. LIEBELER. Now, you were standing right along the curb on Elm Street, is that right, when the motorcade came by across the street from the School Book Depository Building? Miss WILLIS. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Did you follow the motorcade down Elm Street at all, or did you stand on the corner up toward Houston Street and watch from there? Miss WILLIS. I was right across from the sign that points to where Stemmons Expressway is. I was directly across when the first shot hit him. LIEBELER. Directly across from the sign that says, "Stemmons Freeway"? Miss WILLIS. I was right in line with the sign and the car, and I wasn't very far away from him, but I couldn't tell from where the shot came. LIEBELER. Did you just stay right there, or did you go on down Elm Street? Miss WILLIS. I stayed there. I was on the corner across from the courthouse when the motorcade first came down Main Street, and when it turned the corner on Houston, well, I followed along the street with the car, and then he turned the corner on Elm and I stood there where the Stemmons sign is. LIEBELER. Did you see the President get hit in the head? Miss WILLIS. Yes. LIEBELER. You actually saw the President get hit that way? Miss WILLIS. Yes. LIEBELER. How far away would you say that you were when you saw that? Miss WILLIS. Oh, about twice as far as I am from here to this door. Maybe not quite that far. LIEBELER. About 25 feet or so? Miss WILLIS. About that. LIEBELER. Now when you saw the President get hit in the head, did you hear any more shots after that? Miss WILLIS. Yes; the first one, I heard the first shot come and then he slumped forward, and then I couldn't tell where the second shot went, and then the third one, and that was the last one that hit him in the head. LIEBELER. You only heard three shots altogether? Miss WILLIS. Yes; that was it. LIEBELER. So you don't think there were any more shots after he got hit in the head? Miss WILLIS. No. LIEBELER. Did you recognize the noises that you heard as shots right away? Miss WILLIS. No; when the first shot rang out, I thought, well, it's probably fireworks, because everybody is glad the President is in town. Then I realized it was too loud and too close to be fireworks, and then when I saw, when I realized that the President was falling over, I knew he had been hit. But I didn't know how badly. LIEBELER. Okay, I just wanted to ask you about whether you heard any shots after the President got hit in the head, and if you didn't hear any more shots, that is really all I wanted to ask you about. Thank you very much. Miss WILLIS. All right. </DIVISION2><DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2>A. Zapruder - filmed killing</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> TESTIMONY OF ABRAHAM ZAPRUDER The testimony of Abraham Zapruder was taken at 1 p.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. LIEBELER. Mr. Zapruder, would you stand and take the oath, please? Do you solemnly swear this testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? ZAPRUDER. I do. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. ZAPRUDER. What is your name? LIEBELER. Wesley J. Liebeler [spelling] L-i-e-b-e-l-e-r. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137. Under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to have your attorney present, should you desire to have him here. You are entitled to 3 days notice of the hearing and you need not answer any questions you think would violate any rights or privileges that you may have. Did you receive the 3 days notice of the hearing? ZAPRUDER. I was out of town — I was in New York and my secretary called — she called me and told me that she made an appointment for me and that's about all that I know, Mr. Liebeler. The other proceedings — I don't know. LIEBELER. I assume that you are willing to go ahead with your testimony today since you are here. ZAPRUDER. Yes, I am. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? ZAPRUDER. Abraham Zapruder. LIEBELER. That's spelled [spelling] Z-a-p-r-u-d-e-r? Is that correct? ZAPRUDER. Yes. LIEBELER. What is your address? ZAPRUDER. Home address? LIEBELER. Yes. ZAPRUDER. 3909 Marquette. LIEBELER. Here in Dallas? ZAPRUDER. In Dallas — yes. LIEBELER. Are you in business here in Dallas, Mr. Zapruder? ZAPRUDER. Yes. LIEBELER. What business are you in? ZAPRUDER. Manufacturing ladies dresses. LIEBELER. The manufacture of ladies dresses? ZAPRUDER. Yes. LIEBELER. I understand that you took some motion pictures at the time of the assassination? ZAPRUDER. That's correct. LIEBELER. Could you tell us about the circumstances under which you did that, where you were at the time and what happened? ZAPRUDER. Yes. LIEBELER. And what you saw. ZAPRUDER. Well, of course, what I saw you have on film, but that was the day, November 22, it was around 11:30. In fact, I didn't have my camera but my secretary asked me why I don't have it and I told her I wouldn't have a chance even to see the President and somehow she urged me and I went home and got my camera and came back and first I thought I might take pictures from the window because my building is right next to the building where the alleged assassin was, and it's just across — 501 Elm Street, but I figured — I may go down and get better pictures, and I walked down, I believe it was Elm Street and on down to the lower part, closer to the underpass and I was trying to pick a space from where to take those pictures and I tried one place and it was on a narrow ledge and I couldn't balance myself very much. I tried another place and that had some obstruction of signs or whatever it was there and finally I found a place farther down near the underpass that was a square of concrete — I don't know what you call it — maybe about 4 feet high. LIEBELER. I show you a picture that has been marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1 and ask you if you can in fact see yourself in that picture? ZAPRUDER. Let me see, here it is here. That's me standing there — there's a girl — that's where I was standing. LIEBELER. You are pointing out a concrete abutment that comes up immediately to the right of the sign that reads "Stemmons Freeway, Keep Right"? ZAPRUDER. That's right That's the girl behind me — that's my girl that works in my office. She was up there, too. LIEBELER. So, you and this girl are shown standing on top of this concrete abutment there? ZAPRUDER. That's right — she was right behind me and that's from where I took the pictures. LIEBELER. Then, you can actually see yourself in this picture, can't you? ZAPRUDER. Well, I can't distinguish myself being — I know I was there. LIEBELER. Do you recognize that this picture was taken at the time you were there? ZAPRUDER. Yes; I was there and I would say this couldn't be anybody else, unless — If this is an authentic photograph and it isn't composed now or changed — I would say that's me. That's the first time I have seen, that. Were these pictures ever published in a magazine — there were pictures like that I suppose — actually? LIEBELER . This picture here is in fact one of a series of pictures that is being sold down here in Dallas by a fellow named Willis, I believe his name is Phil Willis. He has a series of slides that are available and it's picture No. 5 of those slides in which you can see yourself back there. ZAPRUDER. That must be it because there's another couple back there — I took some from there and I was shooting some of the pictures to start my roll from the beginning. I didn't want to have a blank and I shot some, in fact, they have it — the Federal Bureau of Investigation have those pictures. LIEBELER. As you stood there on this abutment with your camera, the motorcade came down Houston Street and turned left on Elm Street, did it not? ZAPRUDER. That's right. LIEBELER. And it proceeded then down Elm Street toward the triple underpass; is that correct? ZAPRUDER. That's correct I started shooting — when the motorcade started coming in, I believe I started and wanted to get it coming in from Houston Street. LIEBELER. Tell us what happened as you took these pictures. ZAPRUDER. Well, as the car came in line almost — I believe it was almost in line — I was standing up here and I was shooting through a telephoto lens, which is a zoom lens and as it reached about — I imagine it was around here — I heard the first shot and I saw the President lean over and grab himself like this (holding his left chest area). LIEBELER. Grab himself on the front of his chest? ZAPRUDER. Right something like that. In other words, he was sitting like this and waving and then after the shot he just went like that. LIEBELER. He was sitting upright in the car and you heard the shot and you saw the President slump over? ZAPRUDER. Leaning — leaning toward the side of Jacqueline. For a moment I thought it was, you know, like you say, "Oh, he got me," when you hear a shot — you've heard these expressions and then I saw — I don't believe the President is going to make jokes like this, but before I had a chance to organize my mind, I heard a second shot and then I saw his head opened up and the blood and everything came out and I started — I can — hardly talk about it [the witness crying]. LIEBELER. That's all right, LIEBELER. Would you like a drink of water? Why don't you step out and have a drink of water? ZAPRUDER. I'm sorry — I'm ashamed of myself really, but I couldn't help it. LIEBELER. Nobody should ever be ashamed of feeling that way, Mr. Zapruder. I feel the same way myself. It was a terrible thing. Let me go back now for just a moment and ask you how many shots you heard altogether. ZAPRUDER. I thought I heard two, it could be three, because to my estimation I thought he was hit on the second — I really don't know. The whole thing that has been transpiring — it was very upsetting and as you see I got a little better all the time and this came up again and it to me looked like the second shot, but I don't know. I never even heard a third shot. LIEBELER. You didn't hear any shot after you saw him hit? ZAPRUDER. I heard the second — after the first shot — I saw him leaning over and after the second shot — it's possible after what I saw, you know, then I started yelling, "They killed him, they killed him," and I just felt that somebody had ganged up on him and I was still shooting the pictures until he got under the underpass — I don't even know how I did it. And then, I didn't even remember how I got down from that abutment there, but there I was, I guess, and I was walking toward — back toward my office and screaming, "They killed him, they killed him," and the people that I met on the way didn't even know what happened and they kept yelling, "What happened, what happened, what happened?" It seemed that they had heard a shot but they didn't know exactly what had happened as the car sped away, and I kept on just yelling, "They killed him, they killed him, they killed him," and finally got to my office and my secretary — I told her to call the Police or the Secret Service — I don't know what she was doing, and that's about all. I was very much upset. Naturally, I couldn't imagine such a thing being done. I just went to my desk and stopped there until the police came and then we were required to get a place to develop the films. I knew I had something, I figured it might be of some help — I didn't know what. As to what happened — I remember the police were running behind me. There were police running right behind me. Of course, they didn't realize yet, I guess, where the shot came from — that it came from that height. LIEBELER. As you were standing on this abutment facing Elm street, you say the police ran over behind the concrete structure behind you and down the railroad track behind that, is that right? ZAPRUDER. After the shots? LIEBELER. Yes. ZAPRUDER. Yes — after the shots — yes, some of them were motorcycle cops — I guess they left their motorcycles running and they were running right behind me, of course, in the line of the shooting. I guess they thought it came from right behind me. LIEBELER. Did you have any impression as to the direction from which these shots came? ZAPRUDER. No, I also thought it came from back of me. Of course, you can't tell when something is in line-it could come from anywhere, but being I was here and he was hit on this line and he was hit right in the head — I saw it right around here, so it looked like it came from here and it could come from there. LIEBELER. All right, as you stood here on the abutment and looked down into Elm Street, you saw the President hit on the right side of the head and you thought perhaps the shots had come from behind you? ZAPRUDER. Well, yes. LIEBELER. From the direction behind you? ZAPRUDER. Yes, actually — I couldn't say what I thought at the moment, where they came from — after the impact of the tragedy was really what I saw and I started and I said — yelling, "They've killed him" — I assumed that they came from there, because as the police started running back of me, it looked like it came from the back of me. LIEBELER. But you didn't form any opinion at that time as to what direction the shots did come from actually? ZAPRUDER. No. LIEBELER. And you indicated that they could have come also from behind or from any other direction except perhaps from the left, because they could have been from behind or even from the front. ZAPRUDER. Well, it could have been — in other words if you have a point — you could hit a point from any place, as far as that's concerned. I have no way of determining what direction the bullet was going. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion about the direction from which the shots came by the sound, or were you just upset by the thing you had seen? ZAPRUDER. No, there was too much reverberation. There was an echo which gave me a sound all over. In other words that square is kind of — it had a sound all over. LIEBELER. And with the buildings around there, too? ZAPRUDER. Yes, the reverberation was such that a sound — as it would vibrate — it didn't vibrate so much but as to whether it was a backfire-in other words, I didn't from the first sound, from him leaning over — I couldn't think it was a shot, but of course, the second — I think it was the second shot; I don't know whether they proved anything — they claim he was hit — that the first bullet went through him and hit Connally or something like that — I don't know how that is. LIEBELER. Well, there are many different theories about that; One thing I would like you to do now — we have a series — a little book here that is Commission Exhibit No. 885 and it consists of a number of frames from motion pictures and I want to show you certain numbers of them which are important to our work and ask you if those look like they were taken from your film and if in fact you could recognize it as you look through this book that these are individual frame-by-frame pictures of the pictures that you took. ZAPRUDER. Yes, they are frame by frame and they weren't very clear, for the simple reason that on the telephoto lens it's good to take stills-when you move — did you ever have binoculars and every time you move everything is exaggerated in the move — that's one reason why they are kind of blurred — the movement. Now, you want me to identify whether these are my pictures? LIEBELER. Yes, specifically, I first call your attention to No. 185. This is No. 185 on the back of it and will you look at the whole book and identify it if you can and tell us that those are the pictures that — that those appear to be the pictures or copies of the pictures that you took from your motion picture camera? ZAPRUDER. Well, I would say this, they look like — if they were taken from the film I had — these are the ones. I mean, I don't know how to express myself. LIEBELER. Well, they were. ZAPRUDER. Well, it looks like them — that's when they turned in from Elm Street. Is that it? I'm trying to visualize it. This is taking it from the opposite side of me, is it, where I would have been taking it, because I see this structure — I have been around there and — or these — this couldn't be here — where did they get this in there — how did they get this in there, if I was taking the pictures where did they get this in there? That shouldn't be there. LIEBELER. This is the thing back up behind on Dealey Plaza, I think, isn't it? ZAPRUDER. They have one there, too? LIEBELER. Yes, I think there is. now, if you will look at Hudson Exhibit No. 1, you will see that there is some kind of concrete structure there and is a different kind from that figure. It has bigger holes in it. ZAPRUDER. That's right — in the back of this here, that's where it is — that's what I thought it was — that's where I got mixed up. LIEBELER. You thought that the concrete latticework on the individual pictures in Commission Exhibit No. 885- ZAPRUDER. Now I see it — that's where they have moved now the flowers and all that. LIEBELER. Yes — I have to state this for the record — so they can understand what we are talking about — you confused it with the concrete lattice work shown in the background in the individual photographs in Commission Exhibit No. 885 with the larger and obviously different concrete structure in the background of Hudson Exhibit No. 1? ZAPRUDER. Yes, that — there is Elm Street there — this is a corner. LIEBELER. Now, specifically here — let me show you the ones that have been numbered 185 and 186 and see if you can recognize those. This is 185 here that we are looking at now of Commission Exhibit No. 885. ZAPRUDER. Yes. This is where he came in from Houston Street and turned there. LIEBELER. Yes; and they are going down Elm Street now? ZAPRUDER. Yes; this is before-this shouldn't be there — the shot wasn't fired, was it? You can't tell from here? LIEBELER (no response). ZAPRUDER. I believe it was closer down here where it happened. Of course, on the film they could see better but you take an 8 millimeter and you enlarge it in color or in black and white, you lose a lot of detail. I wish I had an enlarger here for you. LIEBELER. In any event, frame No. 185 does look like it's one of the frames, sir? ZAPRUDER. Yes. LIEBELER. And 186 is similar also? ZAPRUDER. Yes. LIEBELER. Now, I've got a list of them here that I want to ask you about — picture 207 and turn on over to this picture. It appears that a sign starts to come in the picture — there was a sign in the picture. ZAPRUDER. Yes; there were signs there also and trees and somehow — I told them I was going to get the whole view and I must have. LIEBELER. But the sign was in the way? ZAPRUDER. Yes; but I must have neglected one part — I know what has happened — I think this was after that happened — something had happened. LIEBELER. Do you remember when you looked at your pictures yourself, do you remember that there was a sign that does appear between the camera and the motorcade itself and you can see the motorcade for a while and the sign comes in the view? ZAPRUDER. That's right. LIEBELER. And the motorcade comes behind it. Now, what about picture No. 210 — however — there is no No. 210 in here. ZAPRUDER. No. LIEBELER. How about No. 222? Now, in No. 222 you can see the President's car coming out from behind the sign. ZAPRUDER. Yes. LIEBELER. And you can see Governor Connally right there in that center seat, I believe? ZAPRUDER. Yes; Governor Connally — yes — these are all the same pictures — I remember the car was kind of buried and I was kind of low and I don't know how I got that view — I didn't get just the full view of the shot. LIEBELER. Let's turn to 225 and there the car is coming further out from behind the sign. ZAPRUDER. Yes. LIEBELER. Is that still the same part of the sequence? ZAPRUDER. Yes. LIEBELER. You can now see the President for the first time. ZAPRUDER. Yes; that's the President. LIEBELER. The President appears to have his hand up by his throat as he is just coming from behind the sign. ZAPRUDER. Yes; it looks like he was hit — it seems — there — somewhere behind the sign. You see, he is still sitting upright. LIEBELER. yes; he's sitting up and holding his hand up. ZAPRUDER. Do we have the sequence — the next frames? LIEBELER. Yes; it will be No. 227 and his hand comes up even more and he starts to move a little to his left. ZAPRUDER. Apparently. And they started speeding the car then to — but he is still sitting up here. Is that still the President here? LIEBELER. Yes; in picture No. 228 — he still appears to have his hand up and in No. 229 it's even more pronounced. ZAPRUDER. Yes. LIEBELER. As the car keeps coming up from behind and in picture 230 he has raised both hands up. ZAPRUDER. It looks to me like he went like this — did he go to his throat — I don't remember — I thought he went like this [holding both hands on the left side of his chest]. Did it show? LIEBELER. Let's turn over to picture 231 here — these still appear to be the same sequence of pictures, do they not? ZAPRUDER. Yes; you get about 16 per second and I think my camera was moving a little fast, maybe 18 frames per second. You see, we have a lot of pictures on there. LIEBELER. And 235 is there. ZAPRUDER. Yes; we've got that. LIEBELER. In 235 both hands are up by his throat there or up to the top of his chest and Mrs. Kennedy is looking at him. ZAPRUDER. To me it looks like it. LIEBELER. You mean it looks to you as though he moved a little more sharply perhaps? ZAPRUDER. Toward her — there are so many frames, of course, this is probably his first reaction, but he leaned over — it would be after the shot was fired, after I heard a sound, he went like this [leaning to the left and holding both hands to the left side of his chest]. LIEBELER. He moved over to his left and pulled his hands there? ZAPRUDER. Yes; he moved to the left and pulled his hands somewhat in this direction. LIEBELER. Does picture 235 appear to be one of the pictures that was taken from your sequence? ZAPRUDER. Yes. LIEBELER. How about 240 — let's turn over to 240 and there he has turned his head toward the left a little bit more. ZAPRUDER. There's only about 100 frames — they are so close. LIEBELER. Five frames? ZAPRUDER. Five frames is nothing — I believe. LIEBELER. How about 249? ZAPRUDER. No. 249 — I just wonder if it was the motion that he went back with that I don't remember — it looks like he has got his hand on his head — I don't remember seeing that. Of course, the pictures would show. LIEBELER. Yes; when you pick one of them out it's hard to break it down and pick them out. ZAPRUDER. Yes; it's hard. We run them in single frames — and to get the main shot — it's hard. LIEBELER. Now, let's turn over to picture 255 — these all do look like they are from your film? ZAPRUDER. Yes; they are — I know this — I have seen it so many times. In fact, I used to have nightmares. The thing would come every night — I wake up and see this. LIEBELER. What about 255 — what about that one? ZAPRUDER. That's still the same series. LIEBELER. That's still the same series — they keep moving along. ZAPRUDER. Yes. LIEBELER. And let's look at No. 313 — as we go along here — then he does start moving sharply to the left. ZAPRUDER. Yes; when you take it frame by frame, it could have been just 2 or 3 seconds, but the impression was that he was leaning over and not just sitting there and looking over that and grabbing himself at the left side. LIEBELER. Yes; moving toward Mrs. Kennedy. ZAPRUDER. That's what impressed me. Now, what number are you on? LIEBELER. 313 — you remember that one? ZAPRUDER. That was — that was the horrible one. LIEBELER. It appears to you then, that this book of pictures here as you look through it, are your pictures? ZAPRUDER. Yes. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Zapruder, after you had the film developed I understand Mr. Sorrels from the Secret Service came over and helped you get the films developed and you gave two copies of your films to Mr. Sorrels, is that correct? ZAPRUDER. Yes. One we have sent to Washington the same night and one went over for the viewers of the FBI on Ervay Street. LIEBELER. That's the Secret Service? ZAPRUDER. The Secret Service — I brought one roll there and they told me to dispatch it by Army plane or I don't know what they had done with it but it was supposed to have gone to Washington and one of them, I believe, remained here with Mr. Sorrels. He came to my office quite a few times to show them to different people. LIEBELER. Now, I understand that you, yourself, retained the original film? ZAPRUDER. No; I don't have that at all — I don't have any at all. They were sold to Time and Life magazines. LIEBELER. You sold that to Life magazine? ZAPRUDER. Yes. LIEBELER. The Commission is interested in one aspect of this and I would like to ask you if you would mind telling us how much they paid you for that film. ZAPRUDER. For the film? LIEBELER. Yes. ZAPRUDER. Well, I just wonder whether I should answer it or not because it involves a lot of things and it's not one price — it's a question of how they are going to use it, are they going to use it or are they not going to use it, so I will say I really don't know how to answer that. LIEBELER. Well, I am not going to even urge you to answer the question. We will ask it and if you would rather not answer it — the Commission feels it would be helpful. ZAPRUDER. I received $25,000, as you know, and I have given that to the Firemen's and Policemen's Benevolence with a suggestion for Mrs. Tippit. You know that? LIEBELER. I don't know: that — you received $25,000? ZAPRUDER. $25,000 was paid and I have given it to the Firemen's and Policemen's Fund. LIEBELER. You gave the whole $25,000? ZAPRUDER. Yes. This was all over the world. I got letters from all over the world and newspapers — I mean letters from all over the world. It was all over the world — I am surprised — that you don't know it — I don't like to talk about it too much. LIEBELER. We appreciate your answer very much. ZAPRUDER. I haven't done anything, the way I have given it, at a time like this. LIEBELER. I want to tell you, you may not be aware of it yourself, but I want to tell you that your film has been one of the most helpful things to the work of the Commission that we could possibly have had because it has enabled us to study the various positions of the people in the car and to determine by comparing it with the reenactment — by comparing it to the view from the window of the building, to develop with a fair degree of accuracy the facts here. ZAPRUDER. I understand — and I am willing to be helpful but I am sorry it had to be on an occasion like this. I am willing to be helpful but I wish this would never have happened. LIEBELER. Yes; that's right. ZAPRUDER. I know they have taken my camera to Washington. LIEBELER. It was a Bell & Howell camera, isn't that right? ZAPRUDER. That's right. LIEBELER. And you turned it over to the FBI and they have made tests on it? ZAPRUDER. Yes; and then Bell & Howell wanted it for their archives and I thought they were through with it and let them have it. In return, they gave me, not for my personal use, but a sound projector which was given to the Golden Age Group. It's a place where old folks have a home. I asked them to-donate something. I didn't want the camera. I didn't want anything for myself. Then the FBI wanted the camera again and I referred them to the Bell & Howell people. LIEBELER. Yes; the FBI asked for the camera back because the Commission wanted to determine whether there was any difference in the frame speed as the camera unwound itself, as it went along. ZAPRUDER. Well, they claimed they told me it was about 2 frames fast — instead of 16 it was 18 frames and they told me it was about 2 frames fast in the speed and they told me that the time between the 2 rapid shots, as I understand, that was determined — the length of time it took to the second one and that they were very fast and they claim it has proven it could be done by 1 man. You know there was indication there were two? LIEBELER. Your films were extremely helpful to the work of the Commission, Mr. Zapruder. ZAPRUDER. I am only sorry I broke down — I didn't know I was going to do it. LIEBELER. Mr. Zapruder, I want to thank you very much, for the Commission, for coming down. It has been very helpful. ZAPRUDER. Well, I am ashamed of myself. I didn't know I was going to break down and for a man to — but it was a tragic thing, and when you started asking me that, and I saw the thing all over again, and it was an awful thing — I know very few people who had seen it like that — it was an awful thing and I loved the President, and to see that happen before my eyes-his head just opened up and shot down like a dog — it leaves a very, very deep sentimental impression with you; it's terrible. LIEBELER. Well, you don't have to feel ashamed about that at all, and thank you very much. I enjoyed meeting you very much. ZAPRUDER. All right, any time you want some more help you can call on me and I will be glad to come in. LIEBELER. All right, thank you a lot. ZAPRUDER. Goodbye. </DIVISION2><DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2>E. Hudson - grounds keeper</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> TESTIMONY OF EMMETT J. HUDSON The testimony of Emmett J. Hudson was taken at 10:40 a.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. LIEBELER. Would you raise your right hand and take the oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? HUDSON. I do. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. HUDSON. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Pursuant to the rules of the Commission you are entitled to have an attorney present, if you wish, and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of the hearing. I don't think you did get 3 days' notice of it, but since you are here I assume you are willing to go ahead? HUDSON. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Do you want to have an attorney present? HUDSON. I don't know that it is necessary — no, is it? LIEBELER. No; I don't think it is at all necessary. Most of the witnesses don't have one present. We just have a few questions. Will you state your full name please? HUDSON. Emmett J. Hudson. LIEBELER. What is your address? HUDSON. 107 South Bishop. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that you are employed by the Dallas Park Department and you are the grounds keeper of Dealey Plaza; is that correct? HUDSON. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Were you the grounds keeper of Dealey Plaza on or about November 22, 1963. HUDSON. Yes; I have been there about 6 years. LIEBELER. Would you tell us where you were on November 22, 1963, at around noon, around the time the Presidential motorcade came by? HUDSON. Yes; I was over there next to that T. & P. Railroad yard where the little toolshed was. LIEBELER. What is the nearest intersection to where you were? HUDSON. Elm. LIEBELER. Elm and what? HUDSON. Houston. LIEBELER. Elm and Houston? HUDSON. Yes. LIEBELER. How far away from the corner of Elm and Houston were you at the time the motorcade came by? HUDSON. Oh, l suppose that it's about — the best I can estimate is somewhere about 200 yards, I guess, down Elm and Houston when the motorcade came along — that's about where I was. LIEBELER. You were right by where the motorcade came by; is that right? HUDSON. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Would you tell us to the best of your recollection what you saw and tell us just what happened when the motorcade came along? HUDSON. Well, I was standing on those steps that came straight down to Elm there, just above that triple underpass, I was about halfway between the triple underpass and Houston, where the steps are — somewhere near about halfway. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph which is No. 18 of Commission Exhibit No. 875. It depicts the street and the triple underpass. Can you show us an that picture, if that picture shows it the place where you were standing? HUDSON. Let me see that's the triple underpass down there — l don't believe this picture gets those steps — yes; it does too — here they are I recognize it now — here it is right here. LIEBELER. Where are the steps? HUDSON. Here they are — right there. LIEBELER. It is the series of steps that runs right down the street there? HUDSON. Yes. LIEBELER. Can you show me just where you were standing? HUDSON. Well, I was right along — you see, the steps come down the steps for a way and then there is a broad place, oh, I'll say it is a little wider than this table here on the steps and then some steps and I was standing on this — that would be somewhere around along about there. LIEBELER. Let me just mark on that picture the place where you were standing so that we can have that. HUDSON. Right along about there. LIEBELER. It was right here where I have placed this "X," is that correct? HUDSON. Yes; right along in there. LIEBELER. So, you were standing about where I placed the "X" on photograph No. 18 of Commission Exhibit No. 875. Tell me what you saw — tell me what happened to the best of your recollection. HUDSON. Well, there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking far a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat down there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him — the second shot. LIEBELER. That was when the bullet him him in the head; is that correct? HUDSON. Yes; it looked like it hit him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear. LIEBELER. On the right-hand side or the left-hand side? HUDSON. Right-hand. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately where the President's car was when you heard what you later figured out was the first shot? HUDSON. Well, the best I could get right off — I remember it was right along about this lightpost right here. LIEBELER. You are indicating the first lightpost on the right-hand side of Elm Street? HUDSON. Yes; coming off of Houston, you see, there's a lightpost right there close to the Houston Street, right there, just above. this little crook right there. LIEBELER. That lightpost doesn't show in the picture you have here? HUDSON. No, sir; it doesn't show in the picture — it was about, I believe where the first shot was fired. LIEBELER. You think he was by the lightpost in this picture when the first shot was fired? HUDSON. Right along there is about where President Kennedy's car was when he was hit — at the time I was looking right at him when the shot struck him, when the bullet struck him. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear altogether? HUDSON. Three. LIEBELER. Three shots? HUDSON. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Are you sure about that? HUDSON. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. You say that it was the second shot that hit him. in the head; is that right? HUDSON. Yes; I do believe that — I know it was. LIEBELER. You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that was there? HUDSON. No, sir. LIEBELER. And after you saw him hit in the head, did you hear another shot? HUDSON. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Did you see that shot hit anything — the third shot? HUDSON. No, sir. I'll tell you — this young fellow that was sitting there with me standing there with me at the present time, he says, "Lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay down, lay down," and he kept on repeating, "Lay down," so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground — you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind. LIEBELER. How could you tell that? HUDSON. Well, just the sound of it. LIEBELER. You heard it come from sort of behind the motorcade and then above? HUDSON. Yes; I don't know if you have ever laid down close to the ground, you know, when you heard the reports coming, but it's a whole lot plainer than it is when you are standing up in the air. LIEBELER. You were standing down here where we put the "X"? HUDSON. Yes. LIEBELER. You say that when the President was hit in the head he was up here by the first lamppost on 'the right-hand side of the post that shows in the picture? HUDSON. Yes; right along in here. LIEBELER. That's when he got hit in the head? HUDSON. Yes; I think so. LIEBELER. Are you sure about that? HUDSON. Yes, sir; I am. LIEBELER. So, you had to look up Elm Street? HUDSON. Yes; I was looking up this way you see. You see [indicating on photograph], that's the motorcade car right there, isn't it? LIEBELER. Yes; the picture that we are looking at here is a picture of a reenactment of 'the scene. HUDSON. Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired — somewhere right along in there. LIEBELER. You think that the last shot was fired and the car was about where it actually is in that picture when the third shot was fired? HUDSON. Pretty close to it; yes, sir. LIEBELER. But you think the President had already been hit in the head by the time the third shot was fired? HUDSON. He had been hit twice, so Parkland Hospital said. He was hit in 'the neck one time and in the head one time. LIEBELER. When the fact shot was fired, were you looking at the presidential car then; could you see it then? HUDSON. Yes; it was coming around — it had just got around the corner, you see, from off of Houston Street, making that corner there, come off of Houston onto Elm. LIEBELER. Did it look to you like the President was hit by the first shot? HUDSON. No, sir; I don't think so — I sure don't. LIEBELER. You don't think he got hit by the first shot? HUDSON. No. LIEBELER. You say it was the second shot that hit him in the head? HUDSON. Yes. LIEBELER. What happened after the President got hit in the head, did you see what he did, what happened in the car? HUDSON. He slumped over and Mrs. Kennedy, she climbs over in the seat with him and pulls him over. LIEBELER. Pulled him down in the seat? HUDSON. Pulled him over in her lap like. LIEBELER. If you don't think the President got hit by the first shot and you say he got hit in the head with the second shot — HUDSON. Yes. LIEBELER. And if we assume that he was hit twice, you would have to say that he was hit by the third shot; isn't that right? HUDSON. Yes. LIEBELER. He was hit again after he got hit in the head? HUDSON. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Do you think that could have been possible when Mrs. Kennedy pulled him over, do you think he could have got hit in the neck after he had been hit in the head? HUDSON. Yes, sir; I do. LIEBELER. He was still sitting far enough up in the car he could have been hit? HUDSON. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Did you watch the President after he got hit in the head like that? HUDSON. Well, as soon as everybody realized what had happened, you know, everybody went to going up the hill so we did too. LIEBELER. So you only saw the President hit once; is that right, sir? HUDSON. Yes, sir; I just saw him hit once. LIEBELER. That was in the head? HUDSON. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. And you aren't able to say from your own observation when he was hit in the neck? HUDSON. Yes. LIEBELER. If he was hit in the neck. HUDSON. No, sir. LIEBELER. Could the car have actually been down here where it is in photograph No. 18, could it have been that far down Elm Street — this is Elm Street that runs down here right here could the car have been that far down Elm Street when the President got hit in the head? HUDSON. No, sir; no sir, it wasn't that far down. LIEBELER. Do you see this little pedestal back up here? HUDSON. Yes. LIEBELER. Just above the "X" where you were standing? HUDSON. Yes. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody standing up there that you can remember during the time the President went by? HUDSON. Oh, there was a bunch of people in time, you know, a whole bunch of them — a lot of people in there a lot of people in here. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody standing up there taking motion pictures with a movie camera? HUDSON. Oh, yes; I seen people up there trying to get — taking pictures. LIEBELER. Did you see a man with a moving picture camera? HUDSON. Not in particular, I didn't. It was such an exciting time — now — I did notice a man back over here on this triangle. LIEBELER. Standing across Elm Street? HUDSON. Yes. sir. LIEBELER. With a motion picture camera? HUDSON. Well, he had a camera — I don't know whether it was a motion picture camera or not, but he had a camera. LIEBELER. I show you another picture which we will mark as Hudson Exhibit No. 1. I have put my initials on the back of the picture. Would you do that too so we can identify the picture before we start to talk about it, so we don't get confused? HUDSON. You mean — put my name? LIEBELER. Just your initials. HUDSON. [Marked picture as requested.] Is that all right? LIEBELER. Now, let's take a look at that picture, Mr. Hudson, and let me ask you if you can see in that picture, where you were standing? HUDSON. ( No response.) LIEBELER. Now, this picture, Hudson Exhibit No. 1, has a sign in it that says, "Stemmons Freeway, keep right," doesn't it? HUDSON. Yes. LIEBELER. Can you find that sign on the photograph No. 18 of Commission Exhibit No. 875? The one that we were talking about before. HUDSON. That's right here, I believe — right here. LIEBELER. Now, that sign says, "R. L. Thornton Freeway, keep right." Where is the Stemmons Freeway sign in this picture? Can you see it in that picture at all — I can't. HUDSON. I can't either — that isn't it — it's farther up this way. LIEBELER. That's further back up and it's out of the picture? HUDSON. Yes. LIEBELER. There are two signs in picture No. 18, one says, "R. I.. Thornton Freeway, keep right," and the other one says, "Fort Worth Turnpike, keep right." HUDSON. There were two of them that wasn't too far apart right through there them signs was — one was right along in here and the other one was either further up, I guess. It's not in that picture I don't believe. Now, they have moved some of those signs. They have moved that R.L. Thornton Freeway sign and put up a Stemmons sign. LIEBELER. They have? They have moved it? HUDSON. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. That might explain it, because this picture here, No. 18, was taken after the assassination and this one was, taken at the time — No. 1. HUDSON. Yes; it had to be right along in there — those steps have got to come down right along in here, if I see the picture right. Now, this: is Elm right here coming down through here, and this is that concrete thing up here that comes around like this~it comes over here and the steps begin right along up in there somewhere and come on down right here to the sidewalk, right along in there somewhere to where those steps is. LIEBELER. So, that you think you were standing somewhere in the back left-hand part of this picture where the steps come down off of the concrete structure there? HUDSON. Yes; this was taken at the present time it happened — this picture was? LIEBELER. Yes; this is an actual picture of the motorcade itself; yes, sir. Let me suggest that the pictures are taken from different angles, referring to photograph No. 18 of Commission Exhibit No. 875 — there is a little concrete stand here in the very right-hand side of the picture. HUDSON. That's just right along in here. LIEBELER. That's right, and that appears in Hudson Exhibit No. 1, immediately to the right of the sign that says, "Stemmons Freeway, keep right." does it not? HUDSON. Yes; those steps are right along there between that concrete — the end of that concrete wall right there and that elm tree come between them — no, not an elm but that's a live oak tree that's a live oak tree right there. LIEBELER. And that's right off of the end of this concrete embankment there, there's a live oak tree there. HUDSON. Yes. LIEBELER. Can you see yourself in that picture anywhere, can you make yourself out? HUDSON. No, sir; I can't, unless it is one of these two men right here. I can't tell — if I had that picture that was taken in the Times Herald paper — I can show you myself in it. LIEBELER. Which one is that? HUDSON. Well, it was in the Times Herald paper the next morning after, — I believe, after the assassination, maybe the evening after the assassination. LIEBELER. Look at this picture. HUDSON. [Examining picture referred to.] I don't know — if that's one of them men and myself or not up there. LIEBELER. I have shown you Commission Exhibit No. 203, and you are not able to point to yourself in that picture at any place. Actually, Commission Exhibit No. 203 shows a different area. HUDSON. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. That's a picture from the front of the Texas School Book Depository Building and you wouldn't be in that picture, according where you placed yourself by looking at Hudson Exhibit No. 1. HUDSON. No; I wouldn't be in that at all — I know. If they had that picture that was taken — a fellow was shooting from across Elm up toward those steps here, that showed my picture in it, I believe. Now, I could be one of those men standing right there — I'm not for sure — I wouldn't say for sure that I was one of them or not, but I can't see it well enough to tell. LIEBELER. In this picture here you see the car is going down Elm Street, isn't that right, referring to Hudson Exhibit No. 1? HUDSON. Yes. LIEBELER. And it is just about to pass a sign that says, "Stemmons Freeway, keep right." Do you think that the President could have been hit when he was that far back up Elm Street? HUDSON. Yes. LIEBELER. You do think that? HUDSON. Yes. LIEBELER. And you had already heard one shot when you saw the President get hit in the head? HUDSON. Yes. LIEBELER. And you heard another shot after that time? HUDSON. Yes. LIEBELER. Do you think, looking at Hudson Exhibit No. 1, do you think that that is about the place where the President got hit in the head, or was it further back up on Elm or was it further down— if so — about where was it? HUDSON. That's somewhere pretty close. LIEBELER. That's pretty close right there? HUDSON. Yes; it's somewhere pretty close. LIEBELER. After you heard these three shots and saw the President get hit in the head, you turned around and you ran up on the little knoll there and you got away. HUDSON. Yes. LIEBELER. While you were standing there, did you ever look up towards the railroad tracks there where they went across the triple underpass? HUDSON. No, sir; while I was laying there I didn't — l was looking down towards Elm Street. LIEBELER. You never looked up towards the railroad tracks that went across the underpass? HUDSON. No, sir. LIEBELER. But you are quite sure in your own mind that the shots came from the rear of the President's car and above it; is that, correct? HUDSON. Yes. LIEBELER. Did you have any idea that they might have come from the Texas School Book Depository Building? HUDSON. Well, it sounded like it was high, you know, from above and kind of behind like — in other words, to the left. LIEBELER. And that would have fit in with the Texas School Book Depository, wouldn't it? HUDSON. Yes. LIEBELER. You look up there and see if you could see anybody? HUDSON. No, sir; I didn't. I never thought about looking up that way, to tell you the truth about it. LIEBELER. You were thinking about getting out of the way after things started? HUDSON. Yes; it was just such an exciting time, you know, a fellow thinks about a million things in one second there at that time. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody standing around there any place with a rifle on the grassy spot up there near where you were standing or on the overpass or any place else? HUDSON. I never seen anyone with a gun up there except the patrols. LIEBELER.The policemen? HUDSON. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Now, did you see anything else down there when this all happened that you think we ought to know about that I haven't asked you about? HUDSON. No, sir; I don't know of anything. LIEBELER. Did you see Governor Connally — did you think Governor Connally had been hit? HUDSON. Well, sir; I never noticed Governor Connally in the car. The first shot must have struck him and he had done fell over in the car when that happened. LIEBELER. So that you didn't even see Governor Connally in the car at all? HUDSON. No, sir. LIEBELER. You didn't see him get hit by any of the shots? HUDSON. No, sir. LIEBELER.You are assuming that maybe he got hit by the first shot and fell down in the car. HUDSON. That's right. LIEBELER. And you saw the President get hit by what you heard as the second shot? HUDSON. Yes. LIEBELER. How far apart were the shots spaced; do you have any recollection about that, how long did it take for all the shots to be fired and how far apart was one shot front the other? HUDSON. Well, they was pretty fast and not too fast either. It seemed like he had time enough to operate his gun plenty well — when the shots were all fired. LIEBELER. How much time do you think passed from the time the first shot was fired until the second shot was fired, can you make any estimate about that? HUDSON. Oh, probably 2 minutes. LIEBELER. As much as 2 minutes? HUDSON. It might not have been that long. LIEBELER. But you thought he had plenty of time to get all the shots off anyway? HUDSON. Yes. LIEBELER. Did you ever do any shooting? HUDSON. Well, not no big rifle I haven't never done no shooting with no big rifle. I have shot shotguns — .22's and things like that. LIEBELER. Did the shots seem evenly spaced or were some of them closer together? HUDSON. They seemed pretty well evenly spaced. LIEBELER. Evenly spaced; is that it? HUDSON. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Did anybody talk to you at all about security arrangements prior to the time the motorcade came by, or was that all handled by the police? HUDSON. That was all handled by the police. LIEBELER. You didn't have anything to do with anything like that? HUDSON. That's right — the fact of the business is, I didn't know they had been routed that way. LIEBELER. You didn't even know it was going to go by until they came? HUDSON. That's right. LIEBELER. Have you been interviewed by the FBI? HUDSON. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Do you remember who talked to you? HUDSON. Not by name, I don't; no, sir. LIEBELER. And did you tell them approximately the same thing you have told me? HUDSON. Yes; approximately the same thing. LIEBELER. Did the Secret Service talk to you, or the Dallas Police Department or the FBI? HUDSON. The FBI and I made a deposition over at the courthouse — the same day that the assassination was the Dallas Police Department or the sheriff's office? HUDSON. The sheriff's office. LIEBELER. Okay, Mr. Hudson, I want to thank you very much for coming in. I don't have any more questions. HUDSON. Well, if it has been any help, I am glad it did. LIEBELER. Pardon? HUDSON. If it has been any help, I am glad to come down. LIEBELER. I think you have been and we are glad to have you cooperate with us in the way you have. I want to thank you very much on behalf of the Commission. HUDSON. All right, good day. </DIVISION2></DIVISION1><DIVISION1> <DIVISION1TITLE><H2>A view of the Book Depository</H2></DIVISION1TITLE><DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2>A. Euins - student</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> TESTIMONY OF AMOS LEE EUINS The President's Commission reconvened at 2:15 p.m. The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order. Amos, will you stand up, please, and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? EUINS. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. How old are you? EUINS. Sixteen. The CHAIRMAN. All right. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, should we start by reading the purpose? The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I think you received a copy of this statement. But I just want to say to you that the purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Arnold Louis Rowland, James Richard Worrell, Robert H. Jackson, and yourself who were in the vicinity of the assassination scene on November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask you facts concerning your knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy. You understand that? EUINS. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. All right. SPECTER. Would you tell us your full name for the record, please? EUINS. Amos Lee Euins. SPECTER. What is your exact date of birth, Amos? EUINS. January 10, 1948. SPECTER. January 10, 1948? EUINS. Yes, sir. SPECTER. And are you a school boy at the present time? EUINS. Yes, sir. SPECTER. What school do you go to? EUINS. Franklin D. Roosevelt. SPECTER. What grade are you in at that school? EUINS. The ninth. SPECTER. Do you live with your parents, Amos? EUINS. Yes, sir. SPECTER. How is your health generally? EUINS. I guess it is all right. SPECTER. How are your eyes? EUINS. They are all right. SPECTER. Can you see good at a distance? EUINS. Yes, I can see good at a distance, but I can't see at real close range. SPECTER. Are you able to read without glasses? EUINS. Yes, sir. SPECTER. You don't use glasses for any purposes, then? EUINS. No, sir. SPECTER. When you say you have trouble at close range, just what do you mean by that? EUINS. You know, like I put something on real close. SPECTER. Indicating about 4 or 5 inches from your eyes? EUINS. Yes, sir. And then they kind of get dim. But on a long scene, I can see good. SPECTER. How are your grades in school, Amos? EUINS. They are all right. SPECTER. Are they better than average, or what? EUINS. They are about average. SPECTER. All right. Going back to November 22, 1963, that is last year, Amos, do you recall what you were doing early on that morning? EUINS. Yes, sir. When I first got up, I went to school. Then about 11:30, well, the teachers called us and told us the ones that wanted to go downtown to see the President come down to the office and get an excuse and they could go. So I went down to the office, and I got an excuse, so I went downtown. SPECTER. And what time did you leave school? EUINS. 11:30. SPECTER. And where did you go from your school? EUINS. Downtown. SPECTER. What part of downtown? EUINS. Right over by the county jail. SPECTER. Do you know the names of those streets, Amos? EUINS. No, sir. SPECTER. If I told you they were Elm and Houston, would that help your memory as to what the names of those streets were? EUINS. It was right by the freeway. SPECTER. All right. Let me show you a photograph, Amos, which is on a document I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 365. (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 365 for identification.) SPECTER. Take just a minute and look at that, and see if you can recognize where that is. EUINS. This is going across the railroad tracks, back up to here — right here at the comer is the Book Depository Building. SPECTER. That is the Book Depository Building, you say? EUINS. Yes, sir. SPECTER. All right. Why don't you just put an "X" with this pencil on the Book Depository Building, as you identify it there, Amos — on the building itself. (Witness marking.) SPECTER. Now, were you somewhere in that area when the President's motorcade went by? EUINS. I was right here. SPECTER. Why don't you take this black pencil and put an "A" right where you were, Amos. (Witness marking.) SPECTER. Now, — what time did you get to the place where you have marked With an "A"? EUINS. Oh, I would say around about 15 minutes or something like that to 12, because my mother brought me down there. SPECTER. She drove you down, did she? EUINS. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Now, were you with anybody when you came to that spot, or did your mother leave you off there by yourself? EUINS. She left me. She had to go on to work. SPECTER. Now, about how long was it after you got there that the motorcade came by? EUINS. Oh, I would say about — I had been there about 15, maybe 20 minutes. It come around the corner, come on around. SPECTER. All right, Amos, I want to show you another picture here that I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 366. (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 366 for identification.) SPECTER. I ask you if you can recognize what that building is. EUINS. This here is the Book Depository Building. SPECTER. All right, Now, look back over here at 365. Can you tell us which direction the President's motorcade came from on this picture? EUINS. It come from right in here. SPECTER. First of all, do you know what the name of this street is? Would that be Main Street, in Dallas? EUINS. Yes, sir; I think so. SPECTER. Coming down Main Street, indicating in a general westerly direction. Turning which way? EUINS. This way. SPECTER. Turned right. Do you know if that is Houston Street? EUINS. No, sir; I don't. SPECTER. Let the record show the witness is identifying a street heretofore identified as Houston. Then which way did the motorcade go after proceeding in a general northerly direction on Houston? EUINS. It come this way, turn. SPECTER. Which way — right or left? EUINS. It turned to the left, coming down, going on. SPECTER. Do you know the name of the street it turned onto when it made the left turn? EUINS. I was just trying to keep an eye on the President. SPECTER. The witness has identified a street heretofore identified as Elm Street. Tell us what you saw as the motorcade went by. EUINS. I was standing here on the corner. And then the President come around the corner right here. And I was standing here. And I was waving, because there wasn't hardly no one on the corner right there but me. I was waving. He looked that way and he waved back at me. And then I had seen a pipe, you know, up there in the window, I thought it was a pipe, some kind of pipe. SPECTER. When had you first seen that thing you just described as a pipe? EUINS. Right as he turned the corner here. SPECTER. Now, exactly where did you see that thing you have described as a pipe come from. And take a good look now before you tell us where it was. EUINS. Right here. SPECTER. Now, will you mark an "X" on Exhibit No. 366 where you saw the pipe? Mark the exact window, if you can, Amos. (Witness marking.) SPECTER. All right. Proceed to tell us what happened, Amos. EUINS. Then I was standing here, and as the motorcade turned the corner, I was facing, looking dead at the building. And so I seen this pipe thing sticking out the window. I wasn't paying too much attention to it. Then when the first shot was fired, I started looking around, thinking it was a backfire. Everybody else started looking around. Then I looked up at the window, and he shot again. So — you know this fountain bench here, right around here. Well, anyway, there is a little fountain right here. I got behind this little fountain, and then he shot again. So after he shot again, he just started looking down this, you know. SPECTER. Who started looking down that way? EUINS. The man in the window. I could see his hand, and I could see his other hand on the trigger, and one hand was on the barrel thing. SPECTER. All right. Now, at the time the second shot was fired, where were you looking then? EUINS. I was still looking at the building, you know, behind this — I was looking at the building. SPECTER. Looking at anything special in the building? EUINS. Yes, sir. I was looking where the barrel was sticking out. SPECTER. How many shots did you hear altogether? EUINS. I believe there was four, to be exact. SPECTER. Now, where were you looking at the time of the third shot, if you remember? EUINS. After he shot the first two times, I was just standing back here. And then after he shot again, he pulled the gun back in the window. And then all the police ran back over here in the track vicinity. SPECTER. Slow down just a little bit in what you are telling us. When the second shot occurred, were you still standing at the point where you marked with an "A" on 365? EUINS. Yes, sir. But I was right behind this little — SPECTER. Were you a little bit behind of where that "A" is? EUINS. Yes, sir; right back here. SPECTER. Let's mark that with a "B," where you were at the time the second shot occurred. (Witness marking.) SPECTER. All right. Now, when the third shot occurred, Amos, let me ask you again, where were you looking then? EUINS. I was still down here, looking up at the building. SPECTER. What did you see in the building? EUINS. I seen a bald spot on this man's head, trying to look out the window. He had a bald spot on his head. I was looking at the bald spot. I could see his hand, you know the rifle laying across in his hand. And I could see his hand sticking out on the trigger part. And after he got through, he just pulled it back in the window. SPECTER. Did you see him pull it back in the window? EUINS. Yes, sir. SPECTER. And were you still standing at point B? EUINS. Yes. SPECTER. When he pulled it back in the window? EUINS. I was still behind here, yes. SPECTER. Where were you when you heard what you described as the fourth shot? EUINS. The first shot I was standing here. SPECTER. Now you are referring to 366. Put an "L" on 366 where you were standing at the first shot. EUINS. Right here. (Witness marking.) EUINS. And then as I looked up there, you know, he fired another shot you know, as I was looking. So I got behind this fountain thing right in there, at this point B. SPECTER. At point B. on 365? EUINS. I got behind there. And then I watched, he did fire again. Then he started looking down towards my way, and then he fired again. SPECTER. The question I have for you now is where were you when he fired on that fourth time. EUINS. I was still behind point B. SPECTER. You were still at point B when he fired the fourth time? EUINS. Yes, sir. Then he pulled the gun back in the window. SPECTER. Did you see him pull the gun back in the window after the fourth shot? EUINS. Yes; he just come back like this. SPECTER. Did you watch what he did after that? EUINS. No, sir; because after he had pulled it back in the window, I ran this way, and went across the tracks. SPECTER. All right. You start on Exhibit 365, and put the black mark and show us the path of where you ran on 365. EUINS. I was here at "B." (At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) (Witness marking.) EUINS. I was coming down like this here, and there was a policeman, you know there is a little cut you can come through there. There was a policeman standing right around here. SPECTER. Where was the policeman standing? Mark that with point "C," Amos. EUINS. Right there. (Witness marking.) SPECTER. You ran past the policeman standing at point C? EUINS. No, sir. You see, I come from point B, and ran here, and told the policeman I had seen the shot, because they were looking at the railroad tracks. So he put me on the cycle and he went to here. SPECTER. He put you on the cycle and took you where? EUINS. Up to the front of the building. SPECTER. The Texas School Book Depository Building? EUINS. Yes, sir; and then he called some more cars. They got all around the building. And then the policemen came from the tracks, and they got around the building. SPECTER. Did you see the policemen come from the tracks to go around the building? EUINS. Yes, sir. SPECTER. About how many policemen were there, would you say, Amos? EUINS. There was about 14 or something like that. They were coming from the tracks here. SPECTER. Do you know what the name of that policeman was, who was in that position where you have marked C? EUINS. No, sir. He was kind of an old policeman. I ran down and got him. And he ran up here. SPECTER. You mean — EUINS. The Book Depository Building. Then he called some more cars. They got all the way around the building. And then after that, well, he seen another man. Another man told him he seen a man run out the back. SPECTER. Do you know who that man was who said somebody ran out the back? EUINS. No, sir. He was a construction man working back there. SPECTER. Were you there when the man talked about somebody running out the back? EUINS. Yes, sir. He said the man had — he said he had kind of bald spot on his head. And he said the man come back there. SPECTER. Do you know what the name of the man was who told the police that someone had run out the back? EUINS. No, sir. SPECTER. What did you do next, Amos? EUINS. So then they took me over to the county jail. And that is where I told them what happened. And then they was standing around the Book Depository Building, and I stayed over there to the jailhouse about 6 o'clock. And then they took me home. SPECTER. And did they question you about what happened and what you observed on that occasion? EUINS. At the jailhouse? SPECTER. At the jailhouse. EUINS. Yes, sir. SPECTER. All right. Amos, would you tell us everything that you can remember about what you saw about the gun itself? EUINS. Well, when I first got here on the corner, the President was coming around the bend. That is when — I was looking at the building then. SPECTER. What did you think it was when you first saw it? EUINS. I thought it was a piece of pipe or something sticking out the window. SPECTER. Did it look like it was a piece of metal to you? EUINS. Yes, sir; just a little round piece of pipe. SPECTER. About an inch in diameter, would you say? EUINS. Yes, sir. SPECTER. And how long was the piece of pipe that you saw? EUINS. It was sticking out about that much. SPECTER. About 14 or 15 inches? EUINS. Yes, sir. And then after I seen it sticking out, after awhile, that is when I heard the shot, and everybody started looking around. SPECTER. At that time, Amos, did you see anything besides the end of the pipe? EUINS. No, sir. SPECTER. For example, you didn't see anything about a stock or any other part of the rifle? EUINS. No, sir — not with the first shot. You see, the President was still right along down in here somewhere on the first shot. SPECTER. Now, when you saw it on the first occasion, did you think it was a rifle then? Or did that thought enter your mind? EUINS. No, sir; I wasn't thinking about it then. But when I was looking at it, when he shot, it sounded like a high-powered rifle, after I listened to it awhile, because I had been in the NDCC for about a year. SPECTER. What is NDCC? EUINS. We call it a military army for the boys, at our school. SPECTER. Is that ROTC? EUINS. Yes, sir. SPECTER. ROTC. And have you had any opportunity to fire a weapon in that ROTC class? EUINS. No, sir; not outside of just .22's. We fire them on the firing range. SPECTER. All right. Now, when you looked up at the rifle later, you described seeing some of the trigger part. EUINS. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Now, describe as fully as you can for us what you saw then, Amos. EUINS. Well, when he stuck it out, you know — after the President had come on down the street further, you know he kind of stuck it out more, you know. SPECTER. How far was it sticking out of the window would you say then, Amos? EUINS. I would say it was about something like that. SPECTER. Indicating about 3 feet? EUINS. You know — the trigger housing and stock and receiver group out the window. SPECTER. I can't understand you, Amos. EUINS. It was enough to get the stock and receiving house and the trigger housing to stick out the window. SPECTER. The stock and receiving house? EUINS. Yes. SPECTER. Now, what direction was the rifle pointing? EUINS. Down — what did you say — Elm? SPECTER. Elm Street? EUINS. Yes, sir; down Elm. SPECTER. Was it pointing in the direction of the President? EUINS. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Now, could you see anything else on the gun? EUINS. No, sir; I could not SPECTER. For example, could you see whether or not there was a telescopic lens on the gun? EUINS. No, sir. SPECTER. Now, is there anything else about the gun that you can describe to us that you have not already told us about? EUINS. No, sir. SPECTER. Now, what kind of a look, if any, did you have at the man who was there? EUINS. All I got to see was the man with a spot in his head, because he had his head something like this. SPECTER. Indicating his face down, looking down the rifle? EUINS. Yes. sir: and I could see the spot on his head. SPECTER. How would you describe that man for us? EUINS. I wouldn't know how to describe him, because all I could see was the spot and his hand. SPECTER. Was he slender or was he fat? EUINS. I didn't get to see him. SPECTER. Could you tell from where you looked whether he was tall or short? EUINS. No. SPECTER. Of what race was he, Amos? EUINS. I couldn't tell, because these boxes were throwing a reflection, shaded. SPECTER. Could you tell whether he was a Negro gentleman or a white man? EUINS. No, sir. SPECTER. Couldn't even tell that? But you have described that he had a bald — EUINS. Spot in his head. Yes, sir; I could see the bald spot in his head. SPECTER. Now, could you tell what color hair he had? EUINS. No, sir. SPECTER. Could you tell whether his hair was dark or light? EUINS. No, sir. SPECTER. How far back did the bald spot on his head go? EUINS. I would say about right along in here. SPECTER. Indicating about 2 1/2 inches above where your hairline is. Is that about what you are saying? EUINS. Yes, sir; right along in here. SPECTER. Now, did you get a very good look at that man, Amos? EUINS. No, sir; I did not. SPECTER. Were you able to tell anything about the clothes he was wearing? EUINS. No, sir. SPECTER. Now, when you were at the sheriff's department in the police station that you have described, did they ask you to sign an affidavit or statement for them, Amos? EUINS. Yes, sir. SPECTER. I now show you a paper, Amos, which I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 367. (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 367 for identification.) SPECTER. This is supposed to be a statement which is signed. Let me first point out to you that it is a copy of it. I ask you if this is a copy of your signature? EUINS. Yes, sir. SPECTER. All right. Now, will you take your time, Amos, and read that over, and then I want to ask you a couple of questions about it. Did you have a chance to read it over? EUINS. Yes, sir. SPECTER. All right. Let me ask you about a couple of specific things here. Amos. In the statement you say here that he was a white man. By reading the statement, does that refresh your memory as to whether he was a white man or not? EUINS. No, sir; I told the man that I could see a white spot on his head, but I didn't actually say it was a white man. I said I couldn't tell. But I saw a white spot in his head. SPECTER. Your best recollection at this moment is you still don't know whether he was a white man or a Negro? All you can say is that you saw a white spot on his head? EUINS. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Then, did you tell the people at the police station that he was a white man, or did they make a mistake when they wrote that down here? EUINS. They must have made a mistake, because I told them I could see a white spot on his head. SPECTER. Now, is there anything else in this statement, Amos. which is different from the way you remember this event, as you are sitting here right now? Amos, did you understand the last question? EUINS. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Did you answer it for us? EUINS. No, sir; I don't think there is. SPECTER. I don't understand you, Amos. The question I am trying to get at it, as you read that statement over now, you have testified or told us here today what you remember about this assassination? EUINS. Yes, sir. SPECTER. And I am asking you, when you read that statement over, is there anything on that statement which you think is wrong, based on what you remember right now? For example, you told us that they were wrong when they wrote down that you identified him as a white man. Were they wrong about anything else that they wrote down? EUINS. Not that I can see. SPECTER. All right. When you looked up and saw this man, Amos, did he have on a hat? EUINS. No, sir. SPECTER. Did you notice any boxes behind him at that time, Amos? EUINS. Yes, sir; there were some boxes, you know, all the side of the window. Like this window — there were some boxes in these windows up here. SPECTER. You saw some boxes in these windows? EUINS. In these windows, and these windows, and there was boxes in half of this one. SPECTER. All right. Now, mark the windows where you saw those boxes, Amos. Start off with — mark the window "Y" where you saw boxes. (Witness marking.) SPECTER. You made a figure 9, as I read it, on the two places you saw in the windows. EUINS. Yes. sir: in this half. SPECTER. Now, were there boxes in the window marked "X"? EUINS. Yes, sir. There were about two or three of them right along here. SPECTER. Indicating the middle dividing line there? EUINS. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Was that window marked "X" opened, Amos, or closed? EUINS. It was open. SPECTER. How far open was it? EUINS. About that high. SPECTER. Indicating about 19 inches? EUINS. Yes, sir. SPECTER. And was the window in the other double window immediately next to the window marked "X" open or closed? EUINS. The top window, on the sixth floor? SPECTER. I am referring to the window right next to it. EUINS. No, sir; it was not open. SPECTER. Amos, when you heard the first shot, did you have any reaction or impression as to where the noise was coming from at that exact time? EUINS. No, sir; not at the exact time. You know, because everybody else started looking around. So I just started looking around, thinking it was a backfire, just like everyone else. SPECTER. Did you look up towards that window before the second shot, or just when the second shot occurred? EUINS. I think — just a little before, because as soon as I did, I looked at it — pow. SPECTER. You heard a pow? EUINS. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Now, as you we're watching and heard, did you have the impression that the noise you heard was coming from that rifle shot? EUINS. No, sir; I didn't, because I wasn't thinking of the rifle at first — you know, because it looked like a pipe at first. SPECTER. When you say the second — when you heard the second shot, when you say you were looking at the rifle, did you have the feeling that the noise came from the rifle when you heard the second shot, when you were looking at it? EUINS. No, sir; I did not. SPECTER. Well, did you have any impression at all about where the noise was coming from? EUINS. No, sir; not on the first shot. SPECTER. How about the second shot? EUINS. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Where did you think the noise was coming from on the second shot? EUINS. I seen him shoot on the second shot. SPECTER. So you thought the noise was coming from the rifle on the second shot? EUINS. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Did you say you thought, or saw? EUINS. I saw him shoot the second shot. SPECTER. How high were those boxes behind him, Amos? EUINS. They was probably about 2 feet high stacked in the back of him. SPECTER. Amos, were you questioned later by the FBI? EUINS. Yes. sir; over in the office. SPECTER. How many times were you questioned by the FBI? EUINS. Oh, once. SPECTER. Do you remember when that was? EUINS. It was around about 2 or 3 o'clock. SPECTER. Do you remember how many days after the assassination it was? EUINS. About 4. SPECTER. You think they might have talked to you more than once? EUINS. No, sir. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I move for the admission into evidence of the statement marked Commission Exhibit 367. The CHAIRMAN. That may be admitted. (The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 367 was received in evidence.) SPECTER. That concludes the questioning I have, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wright? WRIGHT. Nothing further, Mr. Chief Justice. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I would like to move for the admission into evidence of all the exhibits here — 365, 366, as well as 367. The CHAIRMAN. Very well. (The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 365 and 366, were received in evidence.) The CHAIRMAN. Amos, you may be excused, then. Thank you very much for coming and helping us out with your testimony. We will recess until tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock. </DIVISION2><DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2>J. Altgens - AP photographer</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> TESTIMONY OF JAMES W. ALTGENS The testimony of James W. Altgens was taken at 12:45 p.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex. by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. LIEBELER. Will you please stand and take the oath. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? ALTGENS. I do. LIEBELER. Mr. Altgens, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by President Johnson's Executive Order the joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the rules of the Commission's proceedings you are entitled to have an attorney present if you want one. If you don't think you need one, it's perfectly all right. You are entitled to 3 days notice and you may actually have gotten 3 days notice, but if you did not, I presume you are prepared to go ahead, since you are here? ALTGENS. Yes; as a matter of fact I had more than 3 days notice because the time that was originally set up was postponed for almost an additional week, so I had plenty of time. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? ALTGENS. James W. Altgens [spelling], A-l-t-g-e-n-s. LIEBELER. Where do you live, sir? ALTGENS. 6441 Pemberton [spelling], P-e-m-b-e-r-t-o-n Drive. LIEBELER. Here in Dallas? ALTGENS. Yes; Dallas. LIEBELER. Are you employed here in Dallas at the present time? ALTGENS. Yes. LIEBELER. In what capacity? ALTGENS. Officially, I am hired as a wire photo operator, but they use me in three different classifications. I am a photographer and a news photo editor as well as a wire photo operator. LIEBELER. By whom are,you employed? ALTGENS. The Associated Press, Dallas Bureau. LIEBELER. How long have you been employed by the AP? ALTGENS. Approximately 26 1/2 years. LIEBELER. So one might say you are an experienced photographer and have a little experience in the area of photographic work? ALTGENS. I would assume so. LIEBELER. When were you born, sir? ALTGENS. April 28, 1919. LIEBELER. Here in Dallas? ALTGENS. Here; yes, sir. LIEBELER. Have you lived most of your life here in Dallas? ALTGENS. All except my service connected time. LIEBELER. We have been advised that on November 22, 1963, you were assigned to take pictures of the Presidential motorcade; is that correct? ALTGENS Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Did you do that? ALTGENS. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances surrounding the taking of the picture or pictures that you did take and just what happened, where you were and all that you know about the events of November the 22d? ALTGENS. Would you like for me to take it from the time that I arrived on the scene up until the time of the shooting? LIEBELER. Yes, sir. ALTGENS. I arrived on the triple overpass at approximately 11:15 a.m. LIEBELER. When you say the triple overpass, you mean the railroad tracks that cross over Elm, Commerce, and Main Streets? ALTGENS. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. As they run near the Texas School Book Depository Building? ALTGENS. As well as in the opposite direction. LIEBELER. Yes, sir. ALTGENS. My original assignment was to make a pictorial scene of the caravan with the Dallas skyline in the background and the triple overpass was selected as the site for making that picture, and when I arrived on the triple overpass there was no one up there but two uniformed policemen and one of the uniformed policemen came over to me and asked me if I was a railroad employee and I told him, "No," and I showed him my press tag and told him I had a Department of Public Safety ID card showing I was connected with the AP — Associated Press, and he said, "Well, I'm sorry, but this is private property. It belongs to the railroad and only railroad employees are permitted on this property." And, I explained to him that this was a public event and I thought I would be privileged to make a picture from that area, and he says, "No. This is private property and no one but railroad personnel are permitted in this area." This is a little extraneous but I wanted to point this out, and I said, "Well, it looks like you have got it pretty well protected from this area because I see you two uniformed policemen on this overpass and I see you have another uniformed policeman on the overpass on Stemmons," and he said, "Yes, and no one is permitted over on that overpass." So, then, I had to decide on another location for shooting my pictures, so I proceeded on across the triple overpass into the parking lot which is just behind the Book Depository Building and proceeded on down to Elm to the corner of Elm and Houston, crossed Elm going — is that east or south — I guess it is south on Houston. Yes; south on Houston over to Main and Houston. That seemed to me to be the most likely spot to make any pictures. Then I could, by advance planning, get away from that spot after I had made a picture or two and run across the Dealey Plaza and catch the caravan again down on Elm as it proceeded toward the triple overpass and probably get some more pictures, and that was my planning. Well, I was at that site when the Presidential caravan arrived at that intersection. LIEBELER. That intersection being the intersection of Houston and Elm streets? ALTGENS. Houston and Main. LIEBELER. Houston and Main? ALTGENS. Yes; Houston and Main. When the caravan reached Houston and Main I made at least one shot — one picture — I don't have the roll of film with me now so I don't know exactly, but I know I had made an additional one or two pictures of the caravan coming down Main Street prior to that, but I got the one picture with the President waving into the camera. Mrs. Kennedy was looking at me at the time, just as I got ready to snap it the north wind caught her hat and almost blew it off, so she raised her left hand to grab her hat and I did not get her looking into the camera, but I got the Governor and Mrs. Connally and the President with the President waving into the camera. LIEBELER. This was as they turned? ALTGENS. This was as they turned into the sunlight. LIEBELER. Turning into Houston Street; is that right? ALTGENS. Turning right — headed toward the Book Depository Building. LIEBELER. All right. ALTGENS. I thereupon grabbed my gadget bag that I carry my extra lenses in and ran fast down across the Dealey Plaza to get down in front of the caravan for some additional pictures and I took this one picture LIEBELER. Wait just a minute now — at this point, as you ran across, you were along Elm Street; is that correct? ALTGENS. Well, I ran across and reached up into — well, the curb area on the west side of Elm Street. LIEBELER. Across Elm Street from the Texas School Book Depository Building? ALTGENS. Yes, sir; and if I had a picture I could probably show you exactly where I was standing. I did show it to Agent Switzer, if that would be of any help to you. LIEBELER. Yes; I would like to locate that spot. I show you Exhibit No. 354, which is an aerial view of the area that we have been discussing. ALTGENS. This is the Book Depository Building, correct? LIEBELER. Yes. (The witness points to the School Book Depository Building.) ALTGENS. This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head — about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car. LIEBELER. You have indicated a spot along the side of Elm Street which I have marked with a No. 3; is that correct? ALTGENS. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Is that approximately where you were standing? ALTGENS. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Now, when you took the picture of the caravan turning from Main Street to the right on Houston Street, you then ran across this Dealey Plaza? ALTGENS. Down this way; yes, sir. LIEBELER. Along the lawn part. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. To the point marked No. 3 on Commission Exhibit No. 354? ALTGENS. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. And at that point did you take another picture? ALTGENS. I made one picture at the time I heard a noise that sounded like a firecracker. I did not know it was a shot, but evidently my picture, as I recall, and it was almost simultaneously with the shot — the shot was just a fraction ahead of my picture, but that much — of course — at that time I figured it was nothing more than a firecracker, because from my position down here the sound was not of such volume that it would indicate to me it was a high-velocity rifle. LIEBELER. Did you have any idea where the sound came from when you were standing there at No. 3 on Commission Exhibit No. 354? ALTGENS. Well, it sounded like it was coming up from behind the car from my position — I mean the first shot, and being fireworks — who counts fireworks explosions? I wasn't keeping track of the number of pops that took place, but I could vouch for No. 1, and I can vouch for the last shot, but I cannot tell you how many shots were in between. There was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head. That was the last shot — that much I will say with a great degree of certainty. LIEBELER. What makes you so certain of that, Mr. Altgens? ALTGENS. Because, having heard these shots and then having seen the damage that was done on this shot to the President's head, I was aware at that time that shooting was taking place and there was not a shot — I looked — I looked because I knew the shot had to come from either over here, if it were close range, or had to come from a high-powered rifle. LIEBELER. When you say "over here," you indicate what? ALTGENS. The left side of the car. LIEBELER — That would be approximately the intersection of Elm Street and the little street that runs down in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building; isn't that right? ALTGENS. Somewhere in that direction, yes, sir. But if it were a pistol it would have to be fired at close range for any degree of accuracy and there was no one in that area that I could see with any firearms, so I looked back up in this area. LIEBELER. Indicating the buildings surrounding the intersection of Houston Street and Elm Street; is that correct? ALTGENS. Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as he was struck, it caused him to move a bit forward. He seemed as if at the time — well, he was in a position — sort of immobile. He wasn't upright: He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged — it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, so much so that it indicated to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head. Also, the fact that his head was covered with blood, the hairline included, on the left side — all the way down, with no blood on his forehead or face — suggested to me, too, that the shot came from the opposite side, meaning in the direction of this Depository Building, but at no time did I know for certain where the shot came from. LIEBELER. Because you didn't see who fired it? ALTGENS. Because I didn't see who fired it. After the Presidential car moved a little past me, I took another picture — now, just let me back up here — I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good close-up of the President right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera. Because, you see, even up to that time I didn't know that the President had been shot previously. I still thought up until that time that all I heard was fireworks and that they were giving some sort of celebration to the President by popping these fireworks. It stunned me so at what I saw that I failed to do my duty and make the picture that I was hoping to make. The car never did stop. It was proceeding along in a slow pace and I stepped out in the curb area and made another picture as the Secret Service man stopped upon the rear step of the Presidential car and went to Mrs. Kennedy's aid and then after that I immediately crossed the street and once again I was looking to see if I could find anything in this area of Elm and Houston Streets that would suggest to me where the shot came from. Moreover, I was interested in knowing whether or not somebody else had been struck by a bullet or one of the bullets in this area. I saw that no one else had been hit. I did notice after I got on this side of the street, that would be on the opposite side of the Presidential car from where I was standing originally, which would be the left side of the car from where I was standing — looking up toward the building — I saw people looking out of windows. I saw a couple of Negroes looking out of a window which I later learned was the floor below where the gun — where the sniper's nest was supposed to have been, but it didn't register on me at the time that they were looking from an area that the bullet might have come from. There was utter confusion at the time I crossed the street. The Secret Service men, uniformed policemen with drawn guns that went racing up this little incline and I thought — LIEBELER. When you speak of "little incline" that means the area — the little incline on the grassy area here by this concrete structure across Elm Street toward the School Book Depository Building, is that part of Dealey Plaza too over in. here, this concrete structure, or is Dealey Plaza only the name ascribed to this area here between Elm Street and Commerce Street? ALTGENS. I really don't know, sir — I don't know whether this is considered part of the Dealey Plaza or whether this is just something extra as you might have for dressing. LIEBELER. The part we are referring to that we are not just sure if it is a part of Dealey Plaza lies between Elm Street and the railroad tracks that run behind it over here and from the railroad tracks that go over the triple underpass, and this little grassy area that you have just mentioned is just between the area formed by Elm Street and the street that runs directly in front of the School Book Depository Building; is that correct? ALTGENS. Yes, sir. I started up the incline with — or, after the officers, because they were moving well ahead of me and I was moving behind them thinking perhaps if they had the assassin cornered I wanted a picture, but before I had gotten over one quarter of the way up the incline, I met the officers coming back and I presumed that they were just chasing shadows, so to speak, because there was no assassin in the area apparently, but I didn't learn the location of the sniper's nest until I was en route out to Parkland Hospital to continue my assignment and I heard it on the radio, that the assassin's nest was in the sixth floor window of the Book Depository. Building. After that I made a good look through this area to see that no one else had been hit. I noticed the couple that were on — the ground over here with their children, I saw them when they went down and they were in the area and laid there some time after the Presidential car had disappeared. LIEBELER. They threw themselves on the ground in this grassy area that I have just described previously where you ran across after this last shot? ALTGENS. Yes; but they were not hit. I looked at them and they weren't hit by a bullet, so I took another long look around before I started my dash back to the office, and as it turned out, my report was the first that our service had on the assassination and my pictures were the only pictures we had available for a period of about 24 hours. LIEBELER. I have a picture here which has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 203 and I ask you if that is not the first picture that you took after you left the intersection of Main and Houston and crossed Dealey Plaza and stood on the side of Elm Street across from the Texas School Book Depository Book Building? ALTGENS. Yes, sir. LIEBELER Do you recognize that as the picture which you took? ALTGENS. Yea, sir. LIEBELER. Do you know any of the individuals depicted in that picture? ALTGENS. No, sir; I do not. LIEBELER. You testified previously, I believe, that the first shot that was fired had just been fired momentarily before you took the picture, is that right? ALTGENS. Yes, sir; it was so close you could almost say it was simultaneous because it was coincidental but nevertheless that's just the way it happened, LIEBELER. When you first heard this shot, did you see any reaction either on the part of the President or anyone else that indicated they might have been hit by this shot? ALTGENS. No, sir; and as a matter of fact, I did not know that Governor Connally had been hit until one of our reporters got the information out at Parkland Hospital. LIEBELER. As the Presidential car went down Elm Street, did you observe Governor Connally's movements at all, did you see what he was doing? ALTGENS. No, sir; my attention was primarily on the President and Mrs. Kennedy and I just wasn't paying too much attention about the other people in the car after what I saw happen. Of course, my concern was about the President and I just wasn't paying too much attention to others in the car. LIEBELER. You are quite sure in your mind, however, that there were no shots, a noise that sounded like shots, prior to the time at which you took the picture that has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 203; is that correct? ALTGENS. No, sir; I did not — you said all of these shots sounded the same. If you heard one you would recognize the other shots and these were all the same. It was a pop that I don't believe I could identify it any other way than as a firecracker and this particular picture was made at the time the first firecracker noise was heard by me. LIEBELER. Now, you don't think that there could have been any other shots fired prior to that time that you wouldn't have heard, you were standing right there and you would have heard them, would you not? ALTGENS. I'm sure I would have — yes, sir. LIEBELER. You also testified that you were standing perhaps no more than 15 feet away when the President was hit in the head and that you are absolutely certain that there were no shots fired after the President was hit in the head? ALTGENS. Yes, sir; that's correct. LIEBELER. Could you tell us approximately how many shots there were between the first and the last shot — as you well know — there were supposed to have been three shots, but how many shots did you hear? ALTGENS. Well, I wouldn't want to say — I don't want to guess, because facts are so important on something like this. I am inclined to feel like that there were not as many as I have heard people say. I think it's of a smaller denomination, a smaller number, but I cannot — I can really only vouch for the two. Now, I know that there was at least one shot in between. LIEBELER. At least one? ALTGENS. I would say that I know there was one in between. It is possible there might have been another one — I don't really know, but two, I can really account for. LIEBELER. And that's the first one and the last one? ALTGENS. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection as to the spacing of these shots? ALTGENS. They seemed to be at almost regular intervals and they were quick. LIEBELER. How much time do you think elapsed between the first and the last shot? ALTGENS. Well, let's see — I would have to figure it out on a speed basis because they were going at approximately 12 to 15 miles per hour downhill and I would say that all the shots were fired within the space of less than 30 seconds. That's an estimate. LIEBELER. How far away was the Presidential car when you took the picture that has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 203 — you must have had your camera focused? ALTGENS. Yes, sir; it was about 30 feet. LIEBELER. Looking at Commission Exhibit No. 354, we have placed you at No. 3 on that picture. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. In looking at Commission Exhibit No. 203, does it appear to you that 203 could have been taken from position 3 on Commission Exhibit No. 354 and only be 30 feet away from the Presidential car at that time — I'm not saying it wasn't — I mean, just what does it look like to you? The question I'm driving at, of course, is — I want to know — did you move from the time you took the first picture, which is Commission Exhibit No. 203, and the time you saw the President's head hit, did you move down the street at all? ALTGENS. May I ask you a question in return? LIEBELER. Sure. ALTGENS. I have no reason to doubt that by relating other testimony, that you have come up with this figure 1 as being an exact location as to when the Presidential car was struck by the bullet — the first bullet. LIEBELER. You mean on Commission Exhibit No. 354? ALTGENS. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Oh, no; not at all. These figures numbers 1, 2, and 3 don't indicate where the shots hit. They are for entirely different purposes. Figure No. 1 on this picture, Commission Exhibit No. 354, indicates where someone was standing — that's all that indicates. ALTGENS. Well, I will have to ask you this question, then, sir, because as you will know by looking at this picture — LIEBELER. Commission Exhibit No. 203? ALTGENS. Excuse me — picture 203 — there is a tree way behind the Presidential car. Now, figure 1 is placed up in front of this tree, which means that figure 1 would have been behind the car at the time the President received the first shot. LIEBELER. Yes; referring to Exhibit No. 354. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Of course, that has no significance because these numbers have nothing to do with the place where the car was when the President was hit. ALTGENS. I'm sorry — I just misinterpreted it. LIEBELER. I can see why you could assume that, because as you look here at Commission Exhibit No. 354, you see 1, 2, 3, and 4 spaced down Elm Street and you did infer that that's the location the President's car was when it was hit. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Which is not right because those numbers do not indicate that in any way whatsoever — they are not related to that notion at all. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; I did not move from fixed position 3. If I moved at all, it would be to step into the curb area to make a picture and back upon the curb because there were motorcycle policemen on either side of the Presidential car and I didn't want to get in their way, but if you will look at this picture. LIEBELER. Referring to Exhibit No. 203. ALTGENS. You will see by then referring to picture No. 354, that the Presidential car was well down Elm Street in front of a tree that is located in a grassy area which is just off of Elm Street and just off of the street that runs down in front of the Book Depository Building, which would indicate that the point at which he was struck, the location of the car, would be approximately 30 feet in front of the position from which I made this picture. Does that make sense? LIEBELER. Yes; what you are saying is that picture 203 was taken at a time when the President's car had actually gone down Elm Street to a point past this tree that stands at the corner here, in the grassy area, outlined by Elm Street and a little street that runs down by the Texas School Book Depository Building? ALTGENS. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Now, the thing that is troubling me, though, Mr. Altgens, is that you say the car was 30 feet away at the time you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and that is the time at which the first shot was fired? ALTGENS. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. And that it was 15 feet away at the time the third shot was fired. ALTGENS. Yes, sir. LIEBELER But during that period of time the car moved much more than 15 feet down Elm Street going down toward the triple underpass? ALTGENS. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. I don't know how many feet it moved, but it moved quite a ways from the time the first shot was fired until the time the third shot was fired. I'm having trouble on this Exhibit No. 203 understanding how you could have been within 30 feet of the President's car when you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and within 15 feet of the car when he was hit with the last shot in the head without having moved yourself. Now, you have previously indicated that you were right beside the President's car when he was hit in the head. ALTGENS. Well, I was about 15 feet from it. LIEBELER. But it was almost directly in front of you as it went down the street; isn't that right? ALTGENS. Yes. LIEBELER. Am I wrong, or isn't it correct that under that testimony the car couldn't have moved very far down Elm Street between the time you took Exhibit No. 203, which you took when the first shot was fired, and the time that you saw his head being hit, which was the time the last shot was fired? ALTGENS. Well, I have to take into consideration the law governing photographic materials and the use of optics in cameras — lenses — and while my camera may have been set on a distance of 30 feet, there is a plus or minus area in which the focus still is maintained. I figure that this is approximately 30 feet because that's what I have measured on my camera. LIEBELER. And you say Exhibit No. 203 was taken about 30 feet away? ALTGENS. But it might be 40 feet, but I couldn't say that that's exactly the distance because while it may be in focus at 40 feet, my camera has it in focus 30 feet. It's the same thing — if I focus at 15 feet, my focus might extend 20 feet and it might also be reduced to 10 feet, but my focusing was in that general area of 30 feet. I believe, if you will let me say something further here about this picture LIEBELER. Go ahead. ALTGENS. Possibly I could step this off myself from this position, this approximate position where I was standing and step off the distance, using as a guidepost the marker on this post here or some marker that I can find in the area and I can probably step it off or measure it off and get the exact footage. I was just going by the markings on my camera. LIEBELER. The important thing is — it's not all that important as to how far you were away from the car at the time you took the picture — the thing that I want to establish is that you are absolutely sure that you took Exhibit No. 203 at about the time the first shot was fired and that you are quite sure also in your own mind, that there were no shots fired after you saw the President hit in the head. ALTGENS. That is correct; in both eases. LIEBELER. So, it is clear from your testimony that the third shot — the last shot, rather — hit the President? ALTGENS.: Well, off and on we have been referring to the third shot and the fourth shot but actually, it was the last shot, the shot did strike the President and there was no other sound like a shot that was made after that. I was just going to make a conclusion here, but that's not my place to do that, so I'll just forget it — what I was going to say. LIEBELER. Well, what were you going to suggest — go ahead. ALTGENS Well, it seems obvious now, when you think back on it of t it seemed obvious to me afterwards that there wouldn't be another shot if the sniper saw what damage he did. He did enough damage to create enough attention to the fact that everybody knew he was firing a gun. Another shot would have truly given him away, because everybody was looking for him, but as I say, that's an obvious conclusion on my part, but there was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head. LIEBELER. Now, of course, you are aware of the fact that there is an individual portrayed in Exhibit No. 203 [enlarged], standing right in the door of the School Book Depository Building? ALTGENS. Yes. LIEBELER. Just to the right of the No. A in the picture? ALTGENS. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. You are aware that he has been thought to resemble Lee Harvey Oswald by certain people and it has been my understanding that a newspaper reporter by the name of Bonarede called you and discussed this picture with you? ALTGENS. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Do you have any information as to whether or not that man might be Lee Oswald or some other man? ALTGENS. No, sir; I have never seen the man before in my life and have seen no one that looks like him since. LIEBELER. Did this newspaper reporter tell you that it was Oswald, or that it was somebody else — did you have any conversations with him about that? ALTGENS. Oh, yes, sir; as a matter of fact I had two calls from him. I never met the man Bonarede, personally, but I had two calls from him and he indicated to me he was writing a story around this picture which showed this controversial figure standing in the doorway of picture No. 203. He was asking me if I knew him, if I had any information that I might be able to give him in connection with this, inasmuch as he was doing a story on it, and naturally I had no information to give him in that connection, but I don't know the man and I have never had an assignment down at the bookstore before or after the shooting so I have had no occasion to meet anyone down there in the building either before or after. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions at this point, Mr. Altgens. Can you think of anything else you think might be significant — let me ask you this — while you were standing there alongside of Elm Street and you heard this noise that you later deduced was a shot, after that time did you have any occasion to look up at the School Book Depository Building? ALTGENS. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Did you see anything up there? ALTGENS. Well, as I said earlier — when I crossed the street, my vision prior to that was sort of obstructed because of the growth of trees in that area and me being down in a low spot, I couldn't see the whole building too well, but after crossing the street, I looked up to that building as well as the other buildings back on Houston Street. LIEBELER. Yes; I remember you testified about that and you said you saw those two Negroes? ALTGENS. I saw the two Negroes but I at that time lent no significance to that until I later heard where the shots were coming from and also since that time I have heard other people say they saw them too. LIEBELER. Do you know which window they were in, approximately, where on the fifth floor? ALTGENS. Well, they looked to me to be on the floor below, but they were leaning out as though they were looking for something. I do remember that, but since they had nothing in their hands I didn't feel that the shot was coming from their particular area. I saw no rifle at any time although I was looking for one and I reported it to my Associated Press that the President was apparently shot by a high-powered rifle, that's the way we carried it on the wire — credited to my statement. LIEBELER. When you saw these Negroes up there, were they in the center of the building or toward the part of the building closer to the triple underpass or toward Houston Street, or just where were they on the face here of the School Book Depository Building as it faces out on Elm Street? And Main Street? ALTGENS. Well, as I recall, they were down here close to Houston Street. They weren't directly under the window that was later described as being the area of the assassin's nest, but I think they were in a pair of windows that was maybe the next set of windows over, which was a floor below. LIEBELER. When you say "over," you mean down towards the triple underpass? ALTGENS. Yes. LIEBELER. So that they were closer to the corner of the building that is near the intersection of Elm and Houston than they were towards the triple underpass end of the building? ALTGENS. Yes; there were also a number of people looking out of — I believe this building here [indicating on photograph]. LIEBELER. Indicating the building immediately across Houston Street from the School Book Depository? ALTGENS. But — they were scattered and once again, I couldn't see anything over there that suggested to me that they might have a rifle, and, of course, the buildings here which are the county records and courthouse buildings — those windows — I think had nobody in them because I believe they are closed and locked. I'm not real certain of that, but I don't recall seeing anyone at those windows over there. LIEBELER. And you indicate then the building that it catercornered across the street on Houston Street toward Main Street from the School Book Depository? ALTGENS. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Right at the intersection of Houston Street and Elm as it comes down and goes past the School Book Depository Building? ALTGENS. Yes. LIEBELER. At any time after you went back up here and to the intersection on Elm and Houston and after the motorcade came, did you have occasion to look down toward the railroad tracks going across the triple underpass? ALTGENS. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody down there? ALTGENS. Yes, sir; as a matter of fact — let me go back to my position at Houston and Main. I was at that intersection approximately at 11:30, which meant I had close to an hour wait before the caravan was due in that area, and along about noon — of course, there were some other things that happened — there was a man who had an epileptic fit along about that area there, a young fellow approximately 19 or 20 years old, and I was standing over here at the intersection next to a sergeant's motorcycle — it was a tricycle motorcycle. LIEBELER. This was the intersection of Main and Houston that you were standing near? ALTGENS. Yes, sir; and the time was approximately 12:15, I would imagine — I say 12:15 and as I relate the events you will see why I say that, because this sergeant at the motorcycle called for an ambulance and an ambulance came and picked the man up and as the ambulance was leaving through the triple overpass, underneath the triple overpass, I saw the Presidential caravan, the red lights and so on that lead the caravan, coming on to Main Street off of Harwood. LIEBELER. Further up Main Street from where you were standing? ALTGENS. Yes; clear up at the other end of town because Main Street goes uphill and that made it easy for me to spot the red lights indicating the Presidential caravan then was starting down Main Street, and along about the time the sergeant called for the ambulance, I was looking back up here at the triple overpass and I remarked to the sergeant, I said, "Look at all those people up there on the triple overpass." I would estimate about a dozen were up there. LIEBELER. On the railroad tracks immediately over Elm — immediately over the triple underpass? ALTGENS. Yes, sir; and I said, "I wonder what the heck all those people are doing up there when they wouldn't let me up there to make pictures?" And he said, "Well, I suppose they are railroad people." I said, "Well, if they are permitted up there, it seems like they would let me up there just to make a picture." He said, "Well, you know we've got our orders too." So, I just dropped it at that time, but there were at that time now, this was prior to the Presidential arrival in the Main-Houston Street area that I noticed these people up here. LIEBELER. Up on the triple underpass? ALTGENS. Yes; I keep forgetting that we are taking the testimony down here. After the Presidential caravan had proceeded down Elm Street, this was approximately 12:25, then, after the President was shot — the car passed in front of me — I stepped into the curb area and made a picture of the Secret Service man going to the assistance of Mrs. Kennedy. I made a picture at that time which shows part of the triple overpass but it does not show the people up on it. LIEBELER. Did you notice whether there were still people on it at that time? ALTGENS. Yes, sir; there were people up on it and I looked in that direction, but not for a firearm — I didn't really expect any. LIEBELER. Why was that? ALTGENS. Because as I said before — the way the bullet impact hit the President, it had to come from behind or beside the automobile in order to cause him to move forward a little bit and I didn't expect to find anything up in that area, so that is why I was concentrating my observation back in this part, back in the Main— excuse me — back in the Houston-Elm intersection area to see if I could find the rifle. LIEBELER. And you didn't see anybody standing on the overpass with a firearm of any kind? ALTGENS. No, sir. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions, Mr. Altgens, unless you can think of something else that you think would be significant that I haven't thought to ask you about, I think we can terminate the deposition. ALTGENS. No, sir; I can't think of anything — it seems like we have covered it pretty well. LIEBELER. Thank you very much for coming in. ALTGENS. You are welcome, sir — I was glad to do it and I hope that whatever I've had to say will be of some help. LIEBELER. I think it will. ALTGENS. Let me tell you this off the record, because it doesn't matter, but you notice Mr. Switzer, the FBI agent that came out — he and his partner — and talked with me, he brought up this Bonarede to me — the name and then he asked me if I knew somebody else, a woman columnist in a Chicago newspaper. LIEBELER. Yes? ALTGENS. And then showed me a clipping where she too had referred to me in the taking of a picture and I also received a telephone call from a John Gold who is, I guess, a correspondent connected with the London Daily News. I got a call from him on the Thursday night about 11 or 11:30 at night, asking me what that story was all about because — LIEBELER. The Magy Daley story or the Bonarede story? ALTGENS. No; this was the Bonarede story, because they had put it on television — as a teaser to sell publications and the public on the upcoming Sunday — the Sunday publication. LIEBELER. Yes; the New York Tribune. ALTGENS. And gee, I didn't know what to tell the guy because I didn't know Bonarede had written, but Bonarede talked with me. I asked him and I said, "Are you going to quote me on anything I say?" And, he says, "Well, if I do quote you, I'll call you back and ask you for your permission," and I said, "Swell." LIEBELER. Of course, he did quote you and he didn't call you back? ALTGENS. Well, I got a copy of the thing — I didn't gather from the article he was quoting me on anything in particular other than to say that I was a witness and I hadn't been called to testify before the Commission or questioned by the FBI or the Secret Service, but I don't think that he really tied any information to me in the course of writing the story, but it was real strange the way the thing unfolded. I had tried previously to get my bureau chief to give me permission to notify the Warren Commission or someone to let them know I had been In the area, not that my testimony would be of much value, but still if it could be of just a little bit of help I wanted to do what I thought was right, and my boss never got permission for me to do that, and that's why I never did step forward, because I had no authority. Really, I didn't feel that I could act on my own. I wanted to wait until someone gave me authority to do it. LIEBELER. Well, your testimony has been helpful to the extent that it helps to establish the timing of the shots and I'm glad you gave it to us. ALTGENS. Well, I wish I had been able to give this information to you the next day when it was fresh on my mind because 6 months or so later, sometimes the facts might be just a little bit off and I hate to see it that way. LIEBELER. All right. Thank you very much for coming. </DIVISION2><DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2>Richard Worrell, Jr.</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> TESTIMONY OF JAMES RICHARD WORRELL, JR. The CHAIRMAN. All right. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? WORRELL. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Specter, will you proceed with the examination. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please? WORRELL. James Richard Worrell, Jr. The CHAIRMAN. Senator, will you preside while I answer a phone call to another member of the Commission? SPECTER. What is your address, Mr. Worrell? WORRELL. 13510 Winterhaven Drive. SPECTER. What city is that? WORRELL. In Dallas, it is the Farmers Branch of the suburb of Dallas. SPECTER. How long have you resided in Dallas, Tex.? WORRELL. About 12 years. SPECTER. And where did you live before that? WORRELL. 3140 Storey Lane. SPECTER. And in what city is Storey Lane located? WORRELL. Dallas. SPECTER. Where were you born? WORRELL. Livermore, Calif. SPECTER. And how old are you at the present time? WORRELL. Twenty. SPECTER. How long did you live in California? WORRELL. I am not exactly sure. I was a little bitty old thing and I think it was 2 or 3 years. SPECTER. Where did you move from California? WORRELL. From California we moved to Abilene, I think. SPECTER. Abilene, Tex.? WORRELL. Yes. SPECTER. And have you lived in Texas since that time? WORRELL. Yea. SPECTER. What is your marital status? WORRELL. Sir? SPECTER. Are you married or single? WORRELL. Single, sir. SPECTER. Do you live with your parents? WORRELL. My mother and sister. SPECTER. And how much schooling have you had? WORRELL. Eleven years. SPECTER. When did you end your schooling, if you have ended it? WORRELL. I ended it October of this year, I quit. SPECTER. What school were you going to at that time? WORRELL. Thomas Jefferson. SPECTER. High school? WORRELL. High school; yes, sir. SPECTER. Located in Dallas, Tex.? WORRELL. Yes, sir. SPECTER. And were you in the 11th grade or had you completed the 11th grade? WORRELL. I was a senior. SPECTER. How were your grades in school? WORRELL. Average. (The Chief Justice entered the hearing room at this point.) SPECTER. How were you occupied or employed back on November 22, 1963? WORRELL. I was in school then. I skipped school to go there. SPECTER. You were attending Jefferson High School on that day or were enrolled at that time? WORRELL. I was enrolled but I hadn't been going since October. SPECTER. Was there any special reason for your not going since October? WORRELL. No, sir. SPECTER. Had you been employed anywhere from the time you stopped going to school? WORRELL. Yes, sir. I was employed for El Capitan Oil Drilling out in Kermit, Tex. SPECTER. What sort of work were you doing for them? WORRELL., I was a floor man on a derrick. SPECTER. Did you say floor man? WORRELL. Yes. SPECTER. On November 22, 1963, were you working on that day for your employer? WORRELL No. I didn't start this oil job until — it was the last of January. SPECTER. Of 1964? WORRELL. Yes. SPECTER. And are you working for them at the present time? WORRELL. No, sir. SPECTER. Whom are you working for now? WORRELL. I am not employed now. SPECTER. Then going back to November 22, 1963, you had no job at that time? WORRELL. Yes, sir. SPECTER. And did you attend school that day at all? WORRELL. No, sir. SPECTER. Will you outline for us briefly what your activities were from the time you awakened until about noon time on November 22? WORRELL. Well, I got up about, well, I got up at my usual time, about 6:30. I was going to go to school that day but I decided to go see the President and my mother left about 7:30, and my sister left about a quarter of 8. I left about 8, and hitchhiked down to Love Field and got there. It took me quite a while to get there, about 9, and just messed around there until the President come in, whatever time that was. And then I didn't get to see him good at all. So, I caught a bus and went over, went downtown and I just, I don't know, happened to pick that place at the Depository, and I stood at the corner of Elm and Houston. SPECTER. Did you leave Love Field before the President did? WORRELL. Oh, yes. SPECTER. Why did you happen to leave Love Field before he left? WORRELL. Well, so I could see him better. SPECTER. Couldn't you get a good view of him at Love Field? WORRELL. No, I just saw him off the plane and I figured that I wasn't going to see him good so I was going to get a better place to see him. SPECTER. How did you travel from Love Field down to Elm and Houston? WORRELL. Bus. No, no; I just traveled so far on the bus. I went down to Elm, and took a bus from there. I went down as far as, I don't know where that bus stops, anyway I got close to there and I walked the rest of the way. SPECTER. What time, to the best of your recollection, did you arrive at the intersection of Elm and Houston? WORRELL. Well, about 10, 10:30, 10:45, something around there. There weren't many people standing around there then. SPECTER. Well, about how long before the Presidential motorcade came to Elm and Houston did you get there? WORRELL. An hour, an hour and a half. SPECTER. Are you sure you were at Love Field when the President arrived there? WORRELL. Oh, yes. SPECTER. All right. Now I am going to show you a photograph which I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 359. Take a look at that, if you would, please, and tell us whether or not you can identify what scene that is? WORRELL. Yes, this is Elm, Pacific, and Commerce. This is the Depository right here, and this is Stemmons, and this is the way the President come down. SPECTER. So is that the assassination scene itself? WORRELL. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Now take a look at that picture and tell us where you were standing — and I will give you a pencil so you can mark it on that picture itself at the time the Presidential motorcade came by. Mark it with an "X," if you would, just exactly where you were standing, as best as you can recollect it, at this moment, at the time the President went by. WORRELL. Right underneath that window right there. SPECTER. Now, how close were you standing to this building which I will ask you to identify; first of all, what building is that? WORRELL. That is the Texas Depository. SPECTER. All right. Now how close to that building were you standing? WORRELL. I was, I don't know, 4 or 5 feet out from it. SPECTER. Were you standing with your face to the building, with your back to the building, or how? WORRELL. My back was to the building. SPECTER. I show you a photograph which has been identified as Commission Exhibit 360 and I will ask you. if you can identify what that building is? WORRELL. That is the Depository. SPECTER. All right. Now on this picture will you again, with an "X," mark where you were standing as closely as you can recollect it. WORRELL. That car is in the way. SPECTER. All right. Put the mark then right above where the car is, indicating where you were standing on the sidewalk near that building. ( Witness marking.) SPECTER. Now, did you observe the President's motorcade come by? WORRELL. Oh, yes. SPECTER. Describe to us what you saw, heard, and observed at that time. as the motorcade came by. WORRELL. Well, I saw him — I was standing looking — I don't know my directions very well; anyway, I was looking down towards Elm Street watching him come, and they filed by me — SPECTER. On which street were you watching them come? WORRELL. This way. SPECTER. Look at Exhibit 359 and pick out which street they were on? WORRELL. They were coming down this way, so on and so forth. SPECTER. Well, now, were they coming down Elm Street or were they coming down Main Street with a right hand turn on to Houston Street with a curve on Houston down Elm, recollect it if you can? WORRELL. That is right. They did turn around. SPECTER. Did they come down — WORRELL. I didn't see him up there. SPECTER. Where was the President's motorcade at the time you first saw it? WORRELL. Oh, about right in here. SPECTER. Proceeding in this direction indicating in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street, right? WORRELL. Yes, north. SPECTER. Then tell us what the President's motorcade did? WORRELL. It turned and went down this way. SPECTER. Made a left-hand or right-hand turn? WORRELL. Left-hand turn. SPECTER. Did it pass right by in front of where you were standing? WORRELL. Within a hundred feet, I guess. SPECTER. Were you able to get a pretty good view of the President's motorcade? WORRELL. Yes, sir. SPECTER. All right; go ahead and tell us. WORRELL. Didn't get too good a view of the President either, I missed out on there too. But as they went by, they got, oh at least another 50, 75 feet on past me, and then I heard the shots. SPECTER. How many shots did you hear? WORRELL. Four. SPECTER. Did you observe anything at about that time? WORRELL. Yes, sir, I looked up and saw the rifle, but I would say about 6 inches of it. SPECTER. And where did you see the rifle? WORRELL. I am not going — I am not too sure but I told the FBI it was either in the fifth or the sixth floor on the far corner, on the east side. SPECTER. Now looking at the picture which we have identified as Commission Exhibit No. 360, which is where you have drawn an "X," can you indicate the line of vision which you followed to the point where the rifle was to the best of your ability to recollect? WORRELL. Well, when I heard the first shot it was too loud to be a firecracker, I knew that, because there was quite a big boom, and I don't know just out of nowhere, I looked up like that, just straight up. SPECTER. Indicating you looked straight back over your head raising your head to look over your body at the 90 degree angle? WORRELL. Yes; and I saw it for the second time and I looked back to the motorcade. SPECTER. What did you observe at that time? WORRELL. I saw about 6 inches of the gun, the rifle. It had — well it had a regular long barrel but it had a long stock and you could only see maybe 4 inches of the barrel, and I could see — SPECTER. Were you able to observe any of the stock? WORRELL. Oh, yes. SPECTER. How much of the stock were you able to observe? WORRELL. Just very little, just about 2 inches. SPECTER. How many inches of the barrel then could you observe protruding beyond the stock? WORRELL. About 4 inches, I would say, not very much. SPECTER. Now, at the time of the second shot were you able to observe anything at that precise instant? WORRELL. You mean as to firing it. SPECTER. As to anything at all. What did you see when the second shot went off? WORRELL. Well, I looked to see where he was aiming and after the second shot and I have seen the President slumping down in the seat, and— SPECTER. Did you see the President slump in his seat after the second shot? WORRELL. Uh, huh. And about that — SPECTER. Did you look up and see the rifle between the first and the second shots? WORRELL. Yes, sir. And saw the firing on the second and then before he could get a shot I was — I took in everything but especially the car, the President's car, and saw him slumping, and I looked up again and turned around and started running and saw it fire a third time, and then — SPECTER. When did you see it fire a third time, when you looked up, the time you just described? WORRELL. When I was, I did it all in one motion, I looked up, turned around and ran, pivoted. SPECTER. What did you hear, if anything, after that? WORRELL. Just a lot of commotion, everybody was screaming and saying "duck." SPECTER. After the third shot, did you hear a fourth shot? WORRELL. Oh, yes. Just as I got to the corner of Exhibit 360, I heard the fourth shot. SPECTER. Well, did these four shots come close together or how would you describe the timing in general on those? WORRELL. Succession. SPECTER. Were they very fast? WORRELL. They were right in succession. SPECTER. Now going back to the position of the rifle which you testified that you saw, you say it was either on the fifth or sixth floor? WORRELL. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Is there any way you can tell us which floor it was on, or would the angle of your observation permit you to be sure it was the fifth or sixth floors? WORRELL. I am not going to say I am positive, but that one there. SPECTER. All right, would you mark that one — WORRELL. Because that right there, I feel, would have obstructed my vision but I said it was either on the fifth or sixth floor. SPECTER. Well, now, will you mark with a "Y" the window which you (At this point Chief Justice Warren departed the hearing room.) have just pointed to? WORRELL. A "Y"? SPECTER. A "Y." (Witness marking.) SPECTER. You have marked the "Y" over two windows. Was it the window — which window was it there as best you can recollect, as between those two? WORRELL. I didn't mean to bring it down that far but this one. SPECTER. Would you put an arrow then at the window that you have just indicated, was the one where the rifle was protruding from? ( Witness marking.) SPECTER. So, the sum of it is you are not sure whether it was the fifth or the sixth floor, but you believe it was on the floor where you have marked a "Y" which is the sixth floor and that was the line of vision as you looked straight up over your head? WORRELL. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Where did you run, which is what you have just described that you did next? WORRELL. Well, a better view of it is here in 360. I ran down Houston Street alongside the building and then crossed over the street, I ran alongside the building and crossed over, and in 359, I was standing over here, and I saw this man come bustling out of this door. SPECTER. Before you get to that, Mr. Worrell, let me show you a diagram which has been prepared here, which may be of some assistance to you in telling us your movements in running. I will mark this as Commission Exhibit 361 and ask Mr. David Belin, Staff Counsel, to make a statement as to the preparation of this exhibit for the record. BELIN. The record will show that Exhibit 361 was prepared in the exhibit section of the Federal Bureau of Investigation by inspector Leo. J. Gauthier and Eugene Paul Airy, exhibit specialist, with the assistance of Charles D. Musser, illustrator, with particular reference to showing the Texas School Book Depository Building, and the immediate area with relation to the parking lot that employees used. SPECTER. Mr. Worrell, take a good look at this. Study it for just a moment in order to get your bearings on this particular map. This is the Texas School Book Depository Building designated as such. This is Houston Street and this is the direction I am indicating that the motorcade, as you have described from the other exhibit, came from, a generally northerly direction. This is generally north, and it made the left-hand turn which you have already described for the record, onto Elm Street Parkway going down the front there. Now perhaps the best place to start on this is with this red pencil to put a small "X" where you were standing on this map. WORRELL. Where I was standing? SPECTER. Where you were standing. ( Witness marking.) SPECTER. Now will you describe your movement in running as you had started to a few moments ago, indicating with a line of the red pencil just exactly where you went and describe it as you go along. WORRELL. Well, as I said on the third shot I was looking up and pivoting and turning to run at the same time. When I got here I heard the fourth shot. SPECTER. Indicating that you were at that Point right at the corner of the building on Houston? WORRELL. Making a turn. SPECTER. Having moved slightly to your left, and beginning to make a turn to go in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street? WORRELL. I thought that was north. SPECTER. No, this is north, there is a symbol showing which is north. WORRELL. Okay. Then I turned the corner, went right down beside the building on the sidewalk and when I got to the corner SPECTER. Corner of what? WORRELL. Of this building. SPECTER. Of the Texas School Book Depository Building? WORRELL Yes. SPECTER. And what did you do there? WORRELL. Cut directly across, kind of at an angle. SPECTER. Across Houston Street as you have drawn the red line there? WORRELL. Yes, and I rested there, I was out of breath, I smoke too much, short winded. SPECTER. Will you mark that "Y" where you stopped and rested and tell us how long you stopped there? (Witness marking.) WORRELL. How long? SPECTER. Yes, sir. WORRELL. I was there approximately 3 minutes before I saw this man come out the back door here. SPECTER. All right. Now will you put a "Z" where you first saw the man whom you have just described or mentioned? WORRELL. It is here I am pretty sure, I am not positive. (Witness marking.) SPECTER. You are pretty sure — but you can't be positive — but you are pretty sure? WORRELL. Yes. SPECTER. Okay. Now, describe as best you can the man whom you have testified you saw at point "Z." WORRELL. Describe his appearance? SPECTER. Yes. Start by telling us how tall he was, to the best of your ability to recollect and estimate? WORRELL. To the — it is going to be within 3 inches, 5-7 to 5-10. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to his weight? WORRELL. 155 to 165. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to his height? WORRELL. 5-7, 5-10. SPECTER. Pardon me, your best estimate as to his age. WORRELL. Well, the way he was running, I would say he was in his late twenties or middle — I mean early thirties. Because he was fast moving on. SPECTER. Of what race was he? WORRELL. White. SPECTER. Can you describe the characteristics of his hair? WORRELL. Black. SPECTER. Did he have — WORRELL. Well, I will say brunette. SPECTER. Did he have a full head of hair, a partial head of hair, or what? WORRELL. Well, see, I didn't see his face, I just saw the back of his head and it was full in the back. I don't know what the front looked like. But it was full in the back. SPECTER. What clothes did the man have on? WORRELL Dark, like a jacket like that. SPECTER. Indicating a dark gray jacket? WORRELL. No, no. It was a jacket like that. SPECTER. A suit jacket? WORRELL. Yes. SPECTER. Or was it a sports jacket? WORRELL. Sports jacket. SPECTER. Did not have on matching coat and trousers? WORRELL. No. SPECTER. Was it dark in color or light? WORRELL. It was dark in color. I don't know whether it was blue, black, or brown, but it was dark, and he had light pants. And that is all I can say on his clothes, except his coat was open and kind of flapping back in the breeze when he was running. SPECTER. Now, are there any other distinguishing characteristics that you can describe about him? WORRELL. Not a thing. SPECTER. What did he — WORRELL. He wasn't holding nothing when he was running. He was just running. SPECTER. What did you observe him do, if anything? WORRELL. Well, when he ran out here, he ran along the side of the Depository Building and then when he got — SPECTER. Make a dotted line as to where he went, or take this black pencil and make a line as to where he went. (Witness marking.) SPECTER. Where did you see him eventually go? WORRELL. Well, he went on further. SPECTER. Is that the last you saw him? WORRELL. Yes, sir. SPECTER. And did something come between you and him so that your vision was obstructed? WORRELL. Yes, sir. SPECTER. As of the point you have just dotted out there? WORRELL. Yes, sir. SPECTER. What obstructed your view of him at that juncture or at that point? WORRELL. I can't really be sure, it was a building, but the type of building, I don't know. SPECTER. During the course of your seeing him did you ever get a view of his face? WORRELL. Oh, no, no. SPECTER. All right. What did you do next, Mr. Worrell? WORRELL. Well, I went on down this way and headed up back to Elm Street. SPECTER. Indicating you went on down to Pacific? WORRELL. Yes. SPECTER. And then proceeded WORRELL. No, no; that is wrong. I went on Pacific and — SPECTER. Just a minute. You proceeded from point "Y" on in a generally northerly direction to Pacific and then in what direction did you go on Pacific, this would be in an easterly direction? WORRELL. I went east. SPECTER. You went in an easterly direction how many blocks down Pacific? WORRELL. I went down to Market and from Market I went on Ross. SPECTER. You went left on Market down to Ross, and then? WORRELL. From Ross I went all the way to Ervay. SPECTER. Where were you heading for at that time? WORRELL. For the bus stop near my mother's office. And I rode the bus from there out to the school and hitchhiked the rest of the way to Farmers Branch. SPECTER. All right. When did you first report to any official what you had seen and heard on this occasion? WORRELL. Well, I turned the TV on early next morning to see what had happened, and Chief Curry was making a plea — COOPER. Is that going to become a part of the evidence at this point? WORRELL. Chief Curry was making a plea for anyone who had seen the shooting, would they please come down and make a statement. So I called the Farmer Branch police, and told them, and they come and picked me up, and they called the Dallas police, and they come way out there and picked me up and took me downtown to make a statement and brought me back home. SPECTER. Mr. Worrell, before we leave this Exhibit 361, are you able to testify as to the accuracy of the scale drawing here which represents the part of it that you have testified about, specifically the presence of the Texas School Book Depository Building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. Is that the accurate location of that building? WORRELL. Yes, sir. SPECTER. And is it an accurate reproduction of the intersection of Elm and Houston leading into the parkway on Elm Street? WORRELL. As far as this? SPECTER. Yes. WORRELL. Yes. SPECTER. As far as all the parts you have testified about Elm and Houston. Is it accurate that Pacific is one block in the northerly direction away from Elm Street? WORRELL. Yes, sir. SPECTER. And Ross is another block, generally, in a northerly direction away from Pacific? WORRELL. No, Ross is over here. This is Record Street. SPECTER. Well, first there is Elm, then there is Pacific, and then there is Ross. Is that much accurate as the map shows it to be, is that the way the streets are laid out? WORRELL. I think so. SPECTER. How about the general width of Houston Street in relation to the general width of the Texas School Depository Building. is that about right? WORRELL. I don't know, sir. SPECTER. All right, that is fine. At the same time that we have marked Exhibit 361, Mr. Chairman, I would like to use the next number in sequence, No. 362 to mark the other half of this same exhibit which is designated Texas School Book Depository floor plan of the first floor, which we will not use at this time, but I would like to mark it in sequence. And at this time I ask that Commission Exhibits Nos. 359. 360, 361, and 362 be admitted into evidence. COOPER. So ordered. Let those exhibits be admitted as part of the evidence. (The documents referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 359, 360, 361, and 362 were admitted into evidence.) SPECTER. Mr. Worrell, you had told us that you heard a plea by Chief of Police Curry for all witnesses to come forward. WORRELL. Yes, sir. SPECTER. And you heard that plea on the 23d of November? WORRELL. It was on Saturday. SPECTER. What action, if any, did you take in response to that request? WORRELL. I called on the phone to the Farmers Branch police. SPECTER. You called who? WORRELL. The Farmers Branch police. SPECTER. I see. And what did you do then? WORRELL. Well, I told them what I had seen and they said. "Well, stay there and we will come and get you." SPECTER. Did they come and get you? WORRELL. Oh, yes, sir. SPECTER. Did you then tell the police what you had seen and heard? WORRELL. I told a Lt. Butler what I had seen, and I don't know if — they placed the call into the Dallas police and something like an hour later they came to pick me up there. SPECTER. Did you make a statement or take an affidavit on what you had seen and heard? WORRELL. To the Dallas police? SPECTER. Yes. WORRELL. Oh, yes, sir. I made a statement and signed five of them. SPECTER. I will show you a paper which is marked Commission Exhibit 363 which purports to be an affidavit bearing your signature. WORRELL. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Let me ask you first of all if that is your signature? WORRELL. Yes, sir. SPECTER. And would you take just a minute, take your time and read that affidavit over, please. Have you had a chance to read that over, Mr. Worrell? WORRELL. Yes, sir. SPECTER. Did you tell us that you signed five different statements or five copies of the same statement? WORRELL. Five copies of the same statement. SPECTER. Is this the statement which you signed in affidavit form at that time? WORRELL. Yes, sir. SPECTER. And. WORRELL. Yes, sir. SPECTER. As you have just — have you had time to read it over just now? WORRELL. Oh, yes. SPECTER. Is that statement accurate based on your current recollection of the event? WORRELL. It is accurate down to, well, I changed my height to 5-8 from 5-7. SPECTER. Aside from that minor variation, is it accurate in its entirety; that is, is it all accurate? WORRELL. Well, I left out. when I was making my affidavit, I left out, while I was running I heard a gun fire two more times. Well, as I told you, I was turning the corner when I heard it and saw it fire the third time, and then the fourth. SPECTER. Now, are there any other additions or modifications that you would like to make from the contents of your statement in accordance with your recollection at this moment? WORRELL. I can't verify that — the time they got here because I am not too sure of that. SPECTER. You are not sure of that now? WORRELL. No. SPECTER. All right. Are there any other modifications that you would want to make in the contents of the statement? WORRELL. Leave out firecracker. It sounded, it was too loud for a firecracker. SPECTER. Your current recollection is that it was too loud for a firecracker? WORRELL. Yes. SPECTER. Is there any other respect in which your current recollection differs from this affidavit? WORRELL. Instead of looking I ran, I looked up. SPECTER. Is there any other respect in which your current recollection differs from the affidavit? WORRELL. Well, I left out on the barrel of the rifle, I left out part of the stock. I didn't recollect that at that time. SPECTER. Is there any other aspect in which your current recollection differs from the facts set forth in this affidavit? WORRELL. Well, everything else is O.K. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the length of time between the first shot and the last shot which you heard? WORRELL. The best estimate 5, 6 seconds. SPECTER. Have you talked to, been interviewed by or given a statement to any Federal agent? WORRELL. The FBI down at Dallas. SPECTER. How many times have you seen the FBI agents? WORRELL. Once. SPECTER. Do you recollect the names of the agents you saw? WORRELL. No, sir. SPECTER. Do you recollect when it was that you saw those agents? WORRELL. It was on that Saturday, the 23d. SPECTER. And where were you when you saw them? WORRELL. In the Dallas Police Station. SPECTER. How long did that interview last? WORRELL. Thirty minutes. SPECTER. Did you sign a statement for them? WORRELL. I just signed it for the Dallas police. They didn't have me sign anything. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any other Federal agent or representative? WORRELL. Well, Mr. Sorrels interviewed me when he called me and asked me some questions when he called me up Wednesday night, I guess it was. SPECTER. Was that in relationship to your coming here to this Commission hearing? Mr. WOREELL. Yes. SPECTER. What sort of questions did Mr. Sorrels ask you? WORRELL. What I saw. And I told him. SPECTER. Was that just on the telephone? WORRELL. Yes. SPECTER. How long did that conversation last? WORRELL. Not very long. He talked to my mother first. He talked to her for 15 minutes, something like this. SPECTER. Was he talking to her about what you saw or about travel arrangements to get you here? WORRELL. I don't know. I was watching television, I didn't even know who she was talking to. SPECTER. All right. Aside from that conversation with Mr. Sorrels and the interview you have had with the FBI, have you ever talked with any agent or representative of the Federal Government. WORRELL. No, sir. SPECTER. Have you talked to any police official of Dallas or the State of Texas after you gave this affidavit? WORRELL. No, sir. SPECTER. Based on seeing only the back of this man, were you ever able to make any identification of him? WORRELL. No, sir. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, I move for the admission into evidence of the other exhibit which we have used with Mr. Worrell being Commission Exhibit No. 362. COOPER. The exhibit will be admitted to evidence. (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 362 for identification and received in evidence.) SPECTER. That concludes our questions. COOPER. You stated that, I believe, you looked up after you had heard the first report? WORRELL. Yes, sir. COOPER. You looked up and saw the barrel of a rifle and then the rifle fired. What made you know that it fired? WORRELL. Pardon? COOPER. How did you know it was fired when you were looking at it? WORRELL. Well, I saw what you might call a little flame and smoke. COOPER. You saw something that came out of the barrel? WORRELL. Yes, sir. COOPER. Were you looking at it when you heard the third report? WORRELL. Yes, sir, looking at it, turning around and started to run. COOPER. Did you see anything then? WORRELL. Same thing, a little flash of fire and then smoke. I didn't see it on the fourth one. COOPER. Did you only look at the car in which the President was riding one time when you said you saw him slump? WORRELL. Yes, sir. COOPER. Did you look back at the President's car then? WORRELL. No, sir. I didn't do that because I mean I didn't know if there was one or more guns, because I wondered why if it was in such rapid succession being a bolt action, I found out later, and I didn't know what was coming off, so I was running to the back of the building because I figured that would be the safest place. COOPER. Did you see anyone in the windows, in the Texas Depository Building? WORRELL. No, sir. COOPER. Did you notice where this man you have described later as running away from the building, did you see him come out of the building? WORRELL. Yes, sir. COOPER. Where? WORRELL. At the back entrance. Approximately where I put the mark "Z." COOPER. Was he running all the time you saw him? WORRELL. Yes, sir, he sure was. COOPER. That is all. WRIGHT. Prior to hearing the first shot, had you looked up at the School Book Depository Building? WORRELL. No, sir; I sure didn't. WRIGHT. That is all. SPECTER. Were you able to observe the direction of the barrel which you have described? WORRELL. Pointing right down at the motorcade. SPECTER. Any special part of the motorcade? WORRELL. I mean, I couldn't really say that because it was too high up and he could have been pointing at anyone of the cars. I mean I couldn't tell from where I was standing. SPECTER. Was it on the part of the motorcade which had turned down Elm Street or on the part of the motorcade that was still on Houston or what? WORRELL. It was the part that was turned down Elm Street. SPECTER. Mr. Worrell, we have a report of the Federal Bureau of Investigation which contains a purported interview with you, designated as report of Robert P. Gemberling dated November 30, 1963, which has this statement: "He" — referring to you — "stated that last night when he saw photographs of Lee Harvey Oswald on television he felt this was the person he had seen running away from the building. He stated this person did not look back but he was certain this was a white person since he had a profile view." My question, first of all, to you: Did you have a profile view of the man who ran away from the building that you described? WORRELL. No, sir. SPECTER. The second question is, did you tell the FBI that you had a profile view? WORRELL. No, sir, I sure didn't. SPECTER. Did you tell the FBI agent who interviewed you, that you felt that this person was Lee Harvey Oswald? WORRELL. I don't know if I did or not. SPECTER. Did you see anyone else leave the building, that is the Texas School Book Depository Building, except the man you have already described to us? WORRELL. No, sir. SPECTER. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. COOPER. Are there any further questions? I believe we will stand in recess until 2 o'clock. (Whereupon, at 1:10 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) </DIVISION2><DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2>H. Brennan - steamfitter</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order… Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? BRENNAN. I do. The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated, Mr. Brennan. Mr. Belin will conduct the interrogation. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, will you state your name for the record, please? BRENNAN. Howard Leslie Brennan. BELIN. Where do you live? BRENNAN. 6814 Woodward, Dallas, TX. BELIN. And how old a man are you? BRENNAN. 45. BELIN. Are you married? BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. Family? BRENNAN. Two children. One grandson. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mr. Brennan? BRENNAN. Steamfitter. BELIN. And for whom are you employed, or by whom are you employed? BRENNAN. Wallace and Beard. BELIN. Is that a construction company? BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. And let me ask you this: How long have you been a steamfitter? BRENNAN. Since 1943, I believe. BELIN. Do you work for one employer, or do you go from job to job? BRENNAN. I go from job to job. BELIN. Is that at your direction or at the direction of any union? BRENNAN. Local 100 in Dallas. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, where were you on the early part of the afternoon of November 22, 1963, say around noon or so? BRENNAN. I left a position behind the Book Store, which is a leased part of Katy Yards, which we have fabrication for pipe for the Republic Bank Building. At 12 o'clock I went to the cafeteria on the corner of Main and Record. I believe that is it. BELIN. That would be at Main and Record Streets in Dallas? BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. And did you have your lunch there? BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. And then after lunch, where did you go? BRENNAN. I finished lunch and I glanced at a clock — I don't know exactly where the clock is located — and noticed it was 12:18. So I thought I still had a few minutes, that I might see the parade and the President. I walked to the corner of Houston and Elm. BELIN. What route did you take to get to Houston and Elm? BRENNAN. I went west on Main. BELIN. You went west on Main from Record Street to — BRENNAN. Houston. BELIN. Houston BRENNAN. And on the east side of Houston, I walked to Elm. BELIN. All right. BRENNAN. Crossed the street to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm. BELIN. Do you have any estimate about how long it took you to get there? BRENNAN. A possibility I would say more or less 4 minutes. BELIN. And then what did you do when you got to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm? BRENNAN. I stayed around a couple of minutes. There was a man having an epileptic fit, a possibility of 20 yards east — south of this corner. And they were being attended by some civilians and officers, and I believe an ambulance picked him up. BELIN. All right. BRENNAN. And I walked over to this retainer wall of this little park pool and jumped up on the top ledge. BELIN. You jumped up on the retaining wall? BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 477. (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 477 for identification.) BELIN. I ask you to state if you know what this is. BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. Will you please tell the Commission what this is? BRENNAN. That is the Book Store at the corner of Houston and Elm. BELIN. By the Book Store, you mean the Texas School Book Depository Building? BRENNAN. Right. BELIN. Now, do you know what — BRENNAN. That is the retainer wall which I perched on. BELIN. All right. This is the retaining wall on which you perched. I believe that this is actually you sitting on this retaining wall in a picture that we took in Dallas pursuant to your showing us where you were November 22; we took that picture on this past Friday. BRENNAN. That is correct. BELIN. Which would be the 20th of March. Is that correct? BRENNAN. That is correct. BELIN. All right. I hand you now what the reporter has marked as Commission Exhibit 478. (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 478 for identification.) BELIN. I ask you to state, if you know, what this is. BRENNAN. Yes. That is the retaining wall and myself sitting on it at Houston and Elm. BELIN. You remember that the photographer was standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository when that picture was taken on the 20th of March? BRENNAN. Yes; I do. BELIN. And the camera is pointed in what direction? BRENNAN. South. FORD. Are those the positions where you were sitting on November 22? BRENNAN. Yes, sir. FORD. At about 12 BRENNAN. From about 12:22 or 12:24 until the time of the assassination. FORD. In both pictures, that is a true BRENNAN. True location. FORD. True location of where you were sitting November 22nd? BRENNAN. Yes, sir. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, I am going to hand you a negative, which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 479. (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 479 for identification.) BELIN. This appears to be a negative from a moving picture film. And I will hand you a magnifying glass — the negative has been enlarged. This negative appears to be a picture of the Presidential motorcade on the afternoon of November 22nd. I ask you to state if you can find yourself in the crowd in the background in that picture. BRENNAN. Yes. I am sitting at the same position as I was in the picture taken Friday, with the exception, I believe, my hand is resting on the wall, and Friday my hand, I believe, was resting on my leg. BELIN. Well, your legs in this picture, Exhibit 479, I notice, are not dangling on the front side there, is that correct? BRENNAN. No. BELIN. What were you wearing on November 22nd? What clothes were you wearing? BRENNAN. Gray khaki work clothes, with a dark gray hard helmet. BELIN. Your head here appears to be the highest in the group, a little bit left of center in the upper part of the picture, is that correct? BRENNAN. Yes, sir. BELIN. Does this scene depict the scene as you recollect it on that day, November 22nd? BRENNAN. It does. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, could you please tell the Commission what happened from the time you sat on that retaining wall, what you saw? BRENNAN. Well, I was more or less observing the crowd and the people in different building windows, including the fire escape across from the Texas Book Store on the east side of the Texas Book Store, and also the Texas Book Store Building windows. I observed quite a few people in different windows. In particular, I saw this one man on the sixth floor which left the window to my knowledge a couple of times. BELIN. Now, you say the window on the sixth floor. What building are you referring to there? BRENNAN. That is the Texas Book Store. BELIN. I am going to ask you to circle on Exhibit 477 the particular window that you said you saw a man leave and come back a couple of times. BRENNAN. Well, I am confused here, the way this shows. But I believe this is the sixth floor, the way those windows are built there right at the present. I am confused whether this is the same window. BELIN. You mean because some windows are open below it? BRENNAN. No. The way the building is built, it seems like this is more or less a long window with a divider in the middle. BELIN. Here is a marking pencil. Will you just mark the window that you believe you saw the man. BRENNAN. All right. BELIN. And do you want to put a letter "A," if you would, by that. All right, now you have marked on Commission Exhibit 477 a circle with the letter "A" to show the window that you saw a man in, I believe you said, at least two times come back and forth. BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. Did you see any other people in any other windows that you can recollect? BRENNAN. Not on that floor. There was no other person on that floor that ever came to the window that I noticed. There were people on the next floor down, which is the fifth floor, colored guys. In particular, I only remember two that I identified. BELIN. Do you want to mark the window with the circle that you believe you saw some Negro people on the fifth floor. Could you do that with this marking pencil on Exhibit 477, please? BRENNAN. The two that I identified, I believe, was in this window. BELIN. You want to put a "B" on that one? Now, after you saw the man — well, just tell what else you saw during that afternoon. BRENNAN. Well, as the parade came by, I watched it from a distance of Elm and Main Street, as it came on to Houston and turned the corner at Houston and Elm, going down the incline towards the railroad underpass. And after the President had passed my position, I really couldn't say how many feet or how far, a short distance I would say, I heard this crack that I positively thought was a backfire. BELIN. You thought it was backfire? BRENNAN. Of a motorcycle. BELIN. Then what did you observe or hear? BRENNAN. Well, then something, just right after this explosion, made me think that it was a firecracker being thrown from the Texas Book Store. And I glanced up. And this man that I saw previous was aiming for his last shot. BELIN. This man you saw previous? Which man are you talking about now? BRENNAN. The man in the sixth story window. BELIN. Would you describe just exactly what you saw when you saw him this last time? BRENNAN. Well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his last shot. As I calculate a couple of seconds. He drew the gun back from the window as though he was drawing it back to his side and maybe paused for another second as though to assure himself that he hit his mark, and then he disappeared. And, at the same moment, I was diving off of that firewall and to the right for bullet protection of this stone wall that is a little higher on the Houston side. BELIN. Well, let me ask you. What kind of a gun did you see in that window? BRENNAN. I am not an expert on guns. It was, as I could observe, some type of a high-powered rifle. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not it had any kind of a scope on it? BRENNAN. I did not observe a scope. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not it had one? Do you know whether it did or not, or could you observe that it definitely did or definitely did not, or don't you know? BRENNAN. I do not know if it had a scope or not. BELIN. I believe you said you thought the man was standing. What do you believe was the position of the people on the fifth floor that you saw — standing or sitting? BRENNAN. I thought they were standing with their elbows on the window sill leaning out. BELIN. At the time you saw this man on the sixth floor, how much of the man could you see? BRENNAN. Well, I could see at one time he came to the window and he sat sideways on the window sill. That was previous to President Kennedy getting there. And I could see practically his whole body, from his hips up. But at the time that he was firing the gun, a possibility from his belt up. BELIN. How much of the gun do you believe that you saw? BRENNAN. I calculate 70 to 85 percent of the gun. BELIN. Do you know what direction the gun was pointing. BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. And what direction was the gun pointing when you saw it? BRENNAN. At somewhat 30 degrees downward and west by south. BELIN. Do you know down what street it was pointing? BRENNAN. Yes. Down Elm Street toward the railroad underpasses. BELIN. Now, up to the time of the shots, did you observe anything else that you have not told us about here that you can think of right now? BRENNAN. Well, not of any importance. I don't remember anything else except — BELIN. Let me ask you this. How many shots did you hear? BRENNAN. Positively two. I do not recall a second shot BELIN. By a second shot, you mean a middle shot between the time you heard the first noise and the last noise? BRENNAN. Yes; that is right. I don't know what made me think that there was firecrackers thrown out of the Book Store unless I did hear the second shot, because I positively thought the first shot was a backfire, and subconsciously. I must have heard a second shot, but I do not recall it. I could not swear to it. BELIN. Could you describe the man you saw in the window on the sixth floor? BRENNAN. To my best description, a man in his early thirties, fair complexion, slender but neat, neat slender, possibly 5 foot 10. BELIN. About what weight? BRENNAN. Oh, at — I calculated, I think, from 160 to 170 pounds. BELIN. A white man? BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of clothes he was wearing? BRENNAN. Light colored clothes, more of a khaki color. BELIN. Do you remember the color of his hair? BRENNAN. No. BELIN. Now, I believe you said that after the last shot you jumped off this masonry structure on which you were sitting. Why did you jump off? BRENNAN. Well, it occurred to me that there might be more than one person, that it was a plot which could mean several people, and I knew beyond reasonable doubt that there were going to be bullets flying from every direction. BELIN. Then what did you do after that? Or what did you see? BRENNAN. I observed to my thinking that they were directing their search towards the west side of the building and down Houston Street. BELIN. When you say "they," who do you mean? BRENNAN. Law enforcement officers. BELIN. By the west side of the building, you mean towards the underpass or railroad tracks? BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. After you saw that, what did you do? BRENNAN. I knew I had to get to someone quick to tell them where the man was. So I ran or I walked — there is a possibility I ran, because I have a habit of, when something has to be done in a hurry, I run. And there was one officer standing at the corner of the Texas Book Store on the street. It didn't seem to me he was going in any direction. He was standing still. BELIN. What did you do or what did you say to him? BRENNAN. I asked him to get me someone in charge, a Secret Service man or an FBI. That it appeared to me that they were searching in the wrong direction for the man that did the shooting. And he was definitely in the building on the sixth floor. I did not say on the sixth floor. Correction there. I believe I identified the window as one window from the top. BELIN. All right. BRENNAN. Because, at that time, I did not know how many story building it was. FORD. But you did say to the policeman it was a window on the second floor from the top? BRENNAN. Right. BELIN. And then what happened? BRENNAN. He — The CHAIRMAN. May I ask there. By the second floor from the top, do you mean the one directly underneath the top floor? BRENNAN. Underneath the top floor, excluding the roof, yes, sir. BELIN. And then what happened, sir? BRENNAN. He said, "Just a minute." And he had to give some orders or something on the east side of the building on Houston Street. And then he had taken me to, I believe, Mr. Sorrels, an automobile sitting in front of the Texas Book Store. BELIN. And then what happened there? BRENNAN. I related my information and there was a few minutes of discussion, and Mr. Sorrels had taken me then across the street to the sheriffs building. BELIN. Did you describe the man that you saw in the window? BRENNAN. Yes; I believe I did. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, later that afternoon, or the next day, did you have occasion to go down to the Dallas Police Station to try to identify any person? BRENNAN. That evening, the Secret Service picked me up, Mr. Patterson, I believe, at 6 o'clock, at my home, and taken me to the Dallas Police Station. BELIN. All right. Could you tell us what happened there, please? BRENNAN. If I might add a part, that I left out a couple of minutes ago— BELIN. Go right ahead, sir. BRENNAN. As Mr. Sorrels and some more men Were discussing this, I mentioned these two colored guys. BELIN. Yes. BRENNAN. Came out of the book store, running down the steps. BELIN. You mean the two — BRENNAN. That I had previously saw on the fifth floor. BELIN. All right. BRENNAN. And I immediately identified these two guys to the officers and Mr. Sorrels as being on the fifth floor. BELIN. Do you have anything else you wish to add now? BRENNAN. No; that concludes that. McCLOY. They were running out of the building? BRENNAN. They came running down the front steps of the building on the Elm street side. McCLOY. Did they then disappear in the crowd? BRENNAN. No; they took them in custody, I suppose, and questioned them. FORD. The law enforcement officers stopped them, and you did what, then? BRENNAN. No. I believe Mr. Sorrels or the Secret Service man stopped them. I am not sure, but I don't believe an officer of the police department stopped them. FORD. But you were standing on the steps of the Texas School Book Depository Building talking to whom? BRENNAN. Mr. Sorrels and another man, and I believe there was an officer standing there, a police officer. FORD. And these two Negroes came out of the front door? BRENNAN. Yes, sir. FORD. And you did what then? BRENNAN. I — FORD. Spoke to Mr. Sorrels? BRENNAN. Spoke to Mr. Sorrels, and told him that those were the two colored boys that was on the fifth floor, or on the next floor underneath the man that fired the gun. FORD. You positively identified them? BRENNAN. I did, at that time. BELIN. Is there anything else now up to the time you got down to the Dallas Police Station? BRENNAN. Well, nothing except that up until that time, through my entire life, I could never remember what a colored person looked like if he got out of my sight. And I always thought that if I had to identify a colored person I could not. But by coincidence that one time I did recognize those two boys. FORD. Did those two Negro men say in your presence that they had been in the fifth floor window? BRENNAN. I don't recall. I don't recall. BELIN. Is there anything else, sir, now up to the time you got down to the Dallas Police Station? BRENNAN. On Friday evening, you are speaking of? BELIN. Yes. BRENNAN. No. BELIN. All right. What happened when you got down to the Dallas Police Station? BRENNAN. Mr. Patterson, if I am correct in the Secret Service that picked me up, directed me to go to the fourth floor, a certain room on that floor. (At this point, Mr. Warren and Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.) BRENNAN. I later was introduced to several men — Captain Fritz in Mr. Sorrels' once, and several more men. I do not remember their names. BELIN. All right. Before I go any further, do you remember the name of the officer you talked to in front of the School Book Depository Building? BRENNAN. I don't believe I ever heard it. I do not remember his name. BELIN. Are you sure of the names of the Secret Service men you talked to? I believe you mentioned the name Sorrels. BRENNAN. I do not know the other man's name. BELIN. You believe one of them was Sorrels? BRENNAN. I believe one of them was Sorrels. BELIN. I think for the record — BRENNAN. That is at the building. BELIN. Yes, sir. I think we should offer and introduce Commission Exhibits 477, 478, and 479. DULLES. The Chief Justice has asked me to preside in his absence this morning. They shall be admitted. (The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 477, 478 and 479, were received in evidence.) BELIN. By the way, Mr. Brennan, I note that you have glasses with you here today. Were you wearing glasses at the time of the incident that you related here? BRENNAN. No. I only use glasses to see fine print and more especially the Bible and blueprint. BELIN. And have you had your eyes checked within the past 2 or 3 years? BRENNAN. These here were prescriptioned, I believe, a possibility less than a year before the incident. DULLES. Does that mean you are farsighted? BRENNAN. Yes. (At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) BELIN. Has there been anything that has happened since the time of November 22, 1963, that has changed your eyesight in any way? BRENNAN. Yes, sir. BELIN. What has happened? BRENNAN. The last of January I got both eyes sandblasted. BELIN. This is January of 1964? BRENNAN. Yes. And I had to be treated by a Doctor Black, I believe in the Medical Arts Building, through the company. And I was completely blind for about 6 hours. BELIN. How is your eyesight today? BRENNAN. He says it is not good. BELIN. But this occurred January of this year, is that correct? BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. Now, taking you down to the Dallas Police Station, I believe you said you talked to Captain Fritz. And then what happened? BRENNAN. Well, I was just more or less introduced to him in Mr. Sorrels' room, and they told me they were going to conduct a lineup and wanted me to view it, which I did. BELIN. Do you remember how many people were in the lineup? BRENNAN. No; I don't. A possibility seven more or less one. BELIN. All right. Did you see anyone in the lineup you recognized? BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. And what did you say? BRENNAN. I told Mr. Sorrels and Captain Fritz at that time that Oswald or the man in the lineup that I identified looking more like a closest resemblance to the man in the window than anyone in the lineup. BELIN. Were the other people in the lineup, do you remember — were they all white, or were there some Negroes in there, or what? BRENNAN. I do not remember. BELIN. As I understand your testimony, then, you said that you told him that this particular person looked the most like the man you saw on the sixth floor of the building there. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. BELIN. In the meantime, had you seen any pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald on television or in the newspapers? BRENNAN. Yes, on television. BELIN. About when was that, do you believe? BRENNAN. I believe I reached home quarter to three or something of that, 15 minutes either way, and I saw his picture twice on television before I went down to the police station for the lineup. BELIN. Now, is there anything else you told the officers at the time of the lineup? BRENNAN. Well, I told them I could not make a positive identification. BELIN. When you told them that, did you ever later tell any officer or investigating person anything different? BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. When did that happen? BRENNAN. I believe some days later — I don't recall exactly — and I believe the Secret Service man identified himself as being Williams, I believe, from Houston. I won't swear to that — whether his name was Williams or not. BELIN. All right. BRENNAN. And he could have been an FBI. As far as I remember, it could have been FBI instead of Secret Service. But I believe it was a Secret Service man from Houston. And I — BELIN. What did he say to you and what did you say to him? BRENNAN. Well, he asked me — he said, "You said you couldn't make a positive identification." He said, "Did you do that for security reasons personally, or couldn't you?" And I told him I could with all honesty, but I did it more or less for security reasons — my family and myself. BELIN. What do you mean by security reasons for your family and yourself? BRENNAN. I believe at that time, and I still believe it was a Communist activity, and I felt like there hadn't been more than one eyewitness, and if it got to be a known fact that I was an eyewitness, my family or I, either one, might not be safe. BELIN. Well, if you wouldn't have identified him, might he not have been released by the police? BRENNAN. Beg pardon? BELIN. If you would not have identified that man positively, might he not have been released by the police? BRENNAN. No. That had a great contributing factor — greater contributing factor than my personal reasons was that I already knew they had the man for murder, and I knew he would not be released. BELIN. The murder of whom? BRENNAN. Of Officer Tippit. BELIN. Well, what happened in between to change your mind that you later decided to come forth and tell them you could identify him? BRENNAN. After Oswald was killed, I was relieved quite a bit that as far as pressure on myself of somebody not wanting me to identify anybody, there was no longer that immediate danger. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not your having seen Oswald on television would have affected your identification of him one way or the other? BRENNAN. That is something I do not know. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, could you tell us now whether you can or cannot positively identify the man you saw on the sixth floor window as the same man that you saw in the police station? BRENNAN. I could at that time — I could, with all sincerity, identify him as being the same man. BELIN. Was the man that you saw in the window firing the rifle the same man that you had seen earlier in the window, you said at least a couple of times, first stepping up and then going back? BRENNAN. Yes, sir. BELIN. About how far were you away from that window at the time you saw him, Mr. Brennan? BRENNAN. Well, at that time, I calculated 110-foot at an angle. But closer surveillance I believe it will run close to 122 to 126 feet at an angle. BELIN. I believe that on Friday we paced the distance between the place where you were sitting and the front door of the Texas School Book Depository Building, and it ran about — BRENNAN. 93-foot FORD. This doesn't have to be now, but I think some time he ought to step by step on a diagram trace his movements from the restaurant until he left the scene of the shooting. BELIN. On that particular diagram, Congressman Ford, which is Exhibit No. 361, the intersection of Main and Houston, and of Record and Main is not shown. It would be a little bit to the south. FORD. But he might be able to show the direction from which he came to get on to the scene. BELIN. Yes; that he can do. FORD. And then his movements from there on until he left the area. I think it would be very helpful to tie down the precise places he was from time to time. BELIN. I think he might do that right now. Mr. Brennan, I place in front of you Exhibit 362, and I call to your attention that the top appears to be south rather than north, and the arrow north is pointed towards the bottom, And you will notice at the top here, running in what would be an east-west direction, is Elm Street. And you can see running in a north-south direction Houston Street, with the Texas School Book Depository Building noted here in black. Do you see that? BRENNAN. It should be here. BELIN. I will turn the map around to show you north and south; we can keep it upside down for the moment. This is Elm Street. To the north is Pacific. Main would be down here off the bottom of the map. And here is Record Street right here. And I believe you said you were at lunch at Record and Main, and then you walked to the south. I wonder if you might take this pen and kind of, off the street markings, you might start maybe down here at the bottom as to where you had your lunch. BRENNAN. This is Main here. BELIN. Main would be running there, yes. If you would, put a "D" at that point Now, if you would kind of on a line trace your course that you took that day. All right. BRENNAN. I didn't go to the corner. BELIN. You didn't go to the corner of Elm and Houston. That would be the southeast corner? BRENNAN. I noticed this man having a fit. And I came across at this corner. BELIN. Now, would you put the letter "E" where you ended up sitting. This is on Exhibit No. 361. BRENNAN. "E"? BELIN. Yes. BRENNAN. I believe that would be Just about where the retainer wall is. BELIN. All right. So you have put on Exhibit 361 the letter "E" where you were sitting facing the School Book Depository Building. FORD. I think that it might be helpful to trace it where he went subsequent to that. BELIN. All right. Subsequent to the time of the shooting, would you put a line from your point at point "E" to where you went to talk to the police officers and the Secret Service officers? BRENNAN. The retaining wall come around here and straight across here. BELIN. Will you put an "F" where you talked to him? BRENNAN. The 'car was sitting here. That is where I talked to him. This is where I contacted the officer. BELIN. You contacted the officer at "F". BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. And then you went over to a car. BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. Would you put your direction to the car and put a "G" on there? BRENNAN. I walked down the street here a ways with this officer. BELIN. All right, the point from "F" where you walked down the street, that would be walking north on Houston? BRENNAN. I don't know; however, we walked down this way, but I do remember going in that direction with the officer. BELIN. You went to the north on Houston? BRENNAN. Yes. And then back to BELIN. Well, just put a mark in there, and cut it back, if you could, Just to show the route of you going north. BRENNAN. I don't know exactly however. BELIN. All right. Will you put a mark to "G" at the end? And I believe you said that the car that you talked to the Secret Service agent in was at point "G" approximately? BRENNAN. Right. BELIN. Now, are these accurate or approximate locations, Mr. Brennan? BRENNAN. Well, don't you have photographs of me talking to the Secret Service men right here? BELIN. I don't believe so. BRENNAN. You should have. It was on television before I got home—my wife saw it. BELIN. On television? BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. At this time we do not have them. Do you remember what station they were on television? BRENNAN. No. But they had it. And I called I believe Mr. Lish who requested that he cut those films or get them cut of the FBI. I believe you might know about them. Somebody cut those films, because a number of times later the same films were shown, and that partwas cut. BELIN. Who would Mr. Lish be with? BRENNAN. The FBI. BELIN. All right. We thank you very much for that information. Is there anything else that you did at point "G" or anywhere else after the time of the assassination before you went to the Sheriff's office? BRENNAN. I walked up the steps and stood on the outside of the doorway. BELIN. Of what building? BRENNAN. Of the Texas Book Store, while the officers or the men that I was with gave some more orders. And then Mr. Sorrels taken me across to the Sheriff's office. DULLES. You did not go inside the building? BRENNAN. No; I did not. BELIN. Did you notice any people coming out of the front stairs of the building after these two Negroes came out? BRENNAN. Well, I recall people going in and out, but a different picture I cannot remember. FORD. Where were you standing when you identified the two Negroes? BRENNAN. On the edge of the street, outer side of the sidewalk, when the two colored boys came out of the building and came down the steps. BELIN. Was that at point "G"? BRENNAN. Yes, sir. BELIN. All right. Now, perhaps on Exhibit No. 478 you can trace your route at least along Houston Street to the time — to the place where you were sitting. You recognize the intersection of Main and Houston there? BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. All right. Could you start there and kind of trace — well, I don't know if you can see all of it. BRENNAN. No. BELIN. Do the best you can, you can trace along here. Here would be the intersection of Main and Houston. BRENNAN. I came down that side. Now, this street was open at that time. BELIN. By this street you mean Houston Street? BRENNAN. Yes. I don't recall any parked cars there. BELIN. Could you make that line a little darker, sir, that you have put on. All right. Now, at that first point, this would be — BRENNAN. I believe I walked a little south there, just observing them picking the man up. BELIN. All right. You have marked a line on Exhibit No. 478 heading a little bit south on the west side of Houston street, commencing at the southwest corner of the intersection, which is where you say you walked to watch the man with the epileptic fit, is that it? BRENNAN. Well, I didn't go up — he was almost center way of the block here. I didn't go up that far. BELIN. All right. And will you put the letter "H" there, if you would? BRENNAN. Where I was standing watching the man? BELIN. Where you were standing watching the man; yes. BRENNAN. Right there. BELIN. And then where did you go from there? BRENNAN. Right there. BELIN. All right. Now, you have taken a line which would be running along the south side of Elm Street there towards the point where you are sitting, and that is in the picture Exhibit 478. And that was the route that you took? BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. Put the letter "I," if you. would, there, please. Now, on Exhibit No. 477, I wonder if you would perchance show us after the assassination, or the shooting — you said you first went over to another side of the wall. Would it be to the east or to the west there? BRENNAN. To the east. This right here is solid concrete. BELIN. Is this where you went? BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. All right. On Exhibit 477, could you put the letter "J" where you went right after the shooting? All right. Now, I believe you said you later stood up and eventually walked across the street to get a police officer. On Exhibit 477, could you put a letter "K" where you believe you went to talk to this police officer, where he was. It looks like there is a car there now. So you went from point "J" to point "K," and point "K," on Exhibit 477, would correspond with "F" on Exhibit 361, is that right? BRENNAN. Right. BELIN. All right. Now, I wonder if you could perchance show on Exhibit 477 the point that corresponds with point "G" on Exhibit 361, which is where you said you went to the car. BRENNAN. This car here — letter what? BELIN. "L". BRENNAN. That is this car here, sitting approximately where — BELIN. I note that this car that you have marked the "L" is not actually on the extreme north part of Elm, but really appears to be on that part which is going down to the Freeway. BRENNAN. Oh, is that right? Yes; you are correct there. BELIN. Now, is this accurate, or was it one that you saw parked right in front of the building? BRENNAN. Right next to the curb in front of the building. BELIN. Would it be behind — you might put the letter "M" to show the car which it is behind now. BRENNAN. All right. BELIN. You have put the letter "M" on Exhibit 477 to show the car behind the one which the Secret Service car was parked. BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. At this time I believe Exhibits 477, 478 and 479 should be re-offered to show all of the markings that the witness has made on these exhibits. DULLES. They shall be admitted as remarked. (The documents referred to, previously marked for identification as Commission's Exhibit Nos. 477, 478, and 479 were readmitted into evidence.) BELIN. And also Exhibit 361 should be re-offered. DULLES. What is 361? BELIN. It is the large chart which also has been marked on. DULLES. It shall be admitted again, remarked. (The chart referred to, previously marked as Commission's Exhibit No. 361 for identification, was readmitted into evidence.) BELIN. Mr. Brennan, in this sixth floor window, where you saw the gun fired, did you see any objects of any kind in the window, or near the window? BRENNAN. Yes. Through the window, which I referred to as back in the book store building, I could see stacks of boxes. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 480, which appears to be a picture of the Texas School Book Depository Building, which was taken shortly after this time. I believe on the fifth floor you can see on two of the open windows there some people looking out, and Exhibit 481 is a picture of the east windows on the south side of the fifth and sixth floors, and Exhibit 482 is an enlargement of 481. First of all, on Exhibits 481 and 482, do you recognize any of these two persons in the fifth floor window as people you saw there? BRENNAN. No; I do not recognize them. As positive identification I cannot recognize them. Now, I see where there is a possibility I did make a mistake. I believe these two colored boys was in this window, and I believe I showed on that other exhibit that they were in this window. BELIN. All right. I am going to hand you now — BRENNAN. The only thing I said is that they were one window over below the man that fired the gun. BELIN. Well, I hand you Commission Exhibit 477, where you marked a "B" at the point there you first said you saw the Negro men. Is this the one you say now you might have been mistaken? BRENNAN. Yes; I believe I was mistaken. I believe the two men that I identified was in this window. BELIN. You are pointing to the window to the east of where you have now marked "B"? BRENNAN. That I am not positive of. I just remember that they were over one window from below him, which at that time I might have thought this was one window over. BELIN. All right. Let me ask you this. On Exhibit 481, does the condition of the opening of the windows in the fifth floor appear to be that which you saw on the afternoon of November 22? BRENNAN. Yes. These do. BELIN. You are pointing to the fifth-floor windows now? BRENNAN. But I don't recall this window at the time of the shooting being that low. BELIN. Now, by this window you are pointing to the window on the sixth floor? BRENNAN. Right. BELIN. On Exhibit 481. I wonder if you would mark that with the letter "A" — if you would circle that window. And could you put an "A" on that, if you would. Now, window A, on Exhibit 481, when you saw it, how high do you believe it was open? BRENNAN. I believe that at the time he was firing, it was open just like this. BELIN. Just like the windows on the fifth floor immediately below? BRENNAN. That is right. BELIN. I note in window "A" there appear to be some boxes in the window. To the best of your recollection, what is the fact as to whether or not those boxes as shown in this exhibit appear to be similar to the ones you saw on November 22? BRENNAN. No; I could see more boxes. BELIN. In the window or behind the window? BRENNAN. Behind the window. BELIN. I am talking in the window itself. BRENNAN. No, no. That is — I don't remember a box in the window, these boxes I remember are stacked up behind the window, and they were zigzagged, kind of step down, and there was a space it looked like back of here. BELIN. Now, you are pointing to a space which would be on the east side, is that right? BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. When you say you don't remember — BRENNAN. Well, I can see those boxes there now. I don't know whether you can see them or not. It seem like I can see the boxes in that picture. Am I right? BELIN. I don't know, sir. I can't see them on Exhibit 471. That could be the dirty window here. BRENNAN. Here they are here. Those boxes there. BELIN. Well, here is Exhibit 482. First of all, I see a box on Exhibit 482, right in the window. BRENNAN. Yes; I don't recall that box. BELIN. Do you recall that it definitely was not there, or just you don't recall whether it was or was not there. BRENNAN. I do not recall that being there. So, therefore, I could not say it definitely wasn't there. BELIN. You cannot say whether it was or was not? BRENNAN. No. BELIN. On Exhibit 482, do you want to point an arrow to where you believe you can see boxes back there. Or where you saw boxes. All right. Let the record show that Exhibits 480, 481, and 482 were taken by, I believe it is, Underwood or — just a second. Thomas C. Dillard, Chief Photographer of the Dallas Morning News, who was riding in the car with Robert H. Jackson, who has already testified before the Commission, and the deposition of Mr. Dillard will be taken by Mr. Ball and me in Dallas in the first part of April. And that Exhibits 480, 481, and 482 were taken shortly after the firing of the third shot. I think that this should appear in the record. I think it should also appear in the record that Exhibit 479 is one of the frames from the Abraham Zapruder movie film. Mr. Brennan, from the time you first saw the Presidential motorcade turning north on Houston from Main, did you observe the window from which you say you saw the last shot fired at any time prior to the time you saw the rifle in the window? BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. Well, what I am saying is this. You saw the motorcade turn? BRENNAN. No; not after I saw the motorcade, I did not observe a man or rifle in the window. BELIN. Did you observe the window at all until after you heard that first sound which was a backfire or firecracker, at least you thought it was? BRENNAN. No. BELIN. So you did not observe the window and would not know whether or not there was any man in the window during that period? BRENNAN. No. BELIN. Well, let the record be clear. The first sound you first thought was what? BRENNAN. Backfire of a motorcycle. BELIN. And then you later said something about a firecracker. Did that have reference to the first shot, or something in between the first and last? BRENNAN. I positively thought that the first shot was a backfire of a motorcycle. And then something made me think that someone was throwing firecrackers from the Texas Book Store, and a possibility it was the second shot. But I glanced up or looked up and I saw this man taking aim for his last shot. The first shot and last shot is my only positive recollection of two shots. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle explode? Did you see the flash of what was either the second or the third shot? BRENNAN. No. McCLOY. Could you see that he had discharged the rifle? BRENNAN. No. For some reason I did not get an echo at any time. The first shot was positive and clear and the last shot was positive and clear, with no echo on my part. McCLOY. Yes. But you saw him aim? BRENNAN. Yes. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle discharge, did you see the recoil or the flash? BRENNAN. No. McCLOY. But you heard the last shot. BRENNAN. The report; yes, sir. DULLES. Could you see who or what he was aiming at? You testified as to the declination of the rifle, the angle of the rifle. But could you see what he was firing at? BRENNAN. Subconsciously I knew what he was firing at. But immediately I looked towards where President Kennedy's car should be, and there was something obstructing my view. I could not see the President or his car at that time. And I still don't know what was obstructing my view, because I was high enough that I should have been able to see it. I could not see it. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, on one of your interviews with the FBI, they record a statement that you estimated your distance between the point you were seated and the window from which the shots were fired as approximately 90 yards. At that time did you make that statement to the FBI — and this would be on 22 November. To the best of your recollection? BRENNAN. There was a mistake in the FBI recording there. He had asked me the question of how far the shot was fired from too, and also he had asked me the question of how far I was from the shot that was fired. I calculated the distance at the angle his gun was resting that he must have been firing 80 to 90 yards. Now, I— BELIN. You mean 80 or 90 yards from where? BRENNAN. From Kennedy's position. BELIN. But could you see Kennedy's position? BRENNAN. No; I could not. But I could see before and after. BELIN. In that same interview, you stated that you attended a lineup at the Dallas Police Department at which you picked Lee Harvey Oswald as the person most closely resembling the man you observed with the rifle in the window of the Texas School Book Depository, but you stated you could not positively identify Oswald as the person you saw fire the rifle. Now, is this an accurate recording of the statement you made to the FBI on or about November 22? BRENNAN. Yes; I believe BELIN. In other words, that part of the FBI statement is correct, as to what you told them? BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. What was the fact as to whether you could or could not identify the person, apart from what you told them? BRENNAN. Why did I — BELIN. No. What was the fact. Could you or could you not actually identify this person as the man you saw firing the rifle? BRENNAN. I believed I could with all fairness and sincerity. As you asked me the question before, had I saw those pictures of Oswald prior, which naturally I don't know whether it confused me or made me feel as though I was taking unfair advantage or what. But with all fairness, I could have positively identified the man. BELIN. Now, on December 17 there appears to be another interview that you had with an agent of the FBI in which you at that time, according to this report, stated that you could now say that you were sure that Lee Harvey Oswald was the person you saw in the window at the time of the assassination, but that when you first saw him in a lineup you felt positive identification was was not necessary, because it was your understanding that Oswald had already been charged with the slaying of Officer Tippit, and you also said that another factor was that you had observed his picture on television prior to the time of identification, and that that tended to cloud any identification you made of Oswald at the police department. Now, does this December 17 interview accurately record what you told the FBI with regard to that matter of identification? BRENNAN. I believe it does. BELIN. Now, later we have an interview on January 7 with the FBI in which at that time the interview records that while you were at home and before you returned to view the lineup, which included the possible assassin of President Kennedy, you observed Lee Harvey Oswald's picture on television, and that you said that this, of course, did not help you retain the original impression of the man in the window with the rifle, but that upon seeing Lee Harvey Oswald in the police lineup, you felt that Oswald most resembled the man whom you had seen in the window. Now, is that what you told the man on January 7 — that Oswald most resembled the man that you had seen in the window? BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. Does that mean you could not give him a positive identification at that time, but could merely say he most resembled the man in the window? BRENNAN. Well, I felt that I could. But for personal reasons I didn't feel like that at that moment it was compulsory and I did not want to give a positive identification at that time. BELIN. Now, this last interview was on January 7th. You still felt these personal reasons as recently as January 7th, then? BRENNAN. No. I felt better about it. This is the first guy that— BELIN. No. I am referring now to the last interview you had on January 7th, in which it says that you felt that Oswald most resembled the man you had seen in the window. Is that what you told them? BRENNAN. Yes. You mean told this man? BELIN. On January 7th; yes, sir. BRENNAN. No; I don't believe I told this man in those words. I told him what I had said at the lineup. But he might have misinterpreted that I was saying that again. BELIN. In other words — well, I don't want to say in other words. When you said on January 7th that upon seeing Lee Harvey Oswald in the lineup you felt that Oswald most resembled the man whom you had seen in the window? BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. Now, I am referring to a statement to the FBI on January 7th of this year. BRENNAN. All right. BELIN. By that, did you have reference to your own personal recollection, or what you said at the time of the Dallas Police Department lineup? BRENNAN. I believe I was referring to what I said at the Dallas Police Department. BELIN. On January 7th of this year, what is the fact as to whether or not you could give — whether or not you felt on November 22nd that the man you saw in the window was the man you saw in the police lineup — not what you told him, but what was the fact? BRENNAN. On January 7th, at that time I did believe that I could give positive identification as well as I did later. BELIN. You mean in the December interview? BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. Let me ask you this: You said you saw the man with the rifle on the sixth floor, and then you said you saw some Negroes on the fifth floor. BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. Did you get as good a look at the Negroes as you got at the man with the rifle? BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. Did you feel that your recollection of the Negroes at that time was as good as the one with the man with the rifle? BRENNAN. Yes — at that time, it was. Now — the boys rode up with me on the plane — of course I recognize them now. But as far as a few days later, I wouldn't positively say that I could identify them. I did identify them that day. BELIN. Well, for instance, when I showed you Exhibit 482, you said that you could not identify? BRENNAN. Well, the picture is not clear enough, as far as distinct profiles. DULLES. Mr. Belin, I don't think you have asked they be admitted as yet. BELIN. No, sir. I have one more mark to make on them, sir. BRENNAN. The pictures there are not clear enough, the profile is not distinct enough. BELIN. All right. Now, I wonder if you would take on Exhibit 482, if you can kind of mark the way the rifle was at the time you saw it. Here is a red pencil. If you could put on Exhibit 482 the direction that you saw the rifle pointing, sir. BRENNAN. I would say more at this angle. Maybe not as far out as this. BELIN. You have put a line, and I have tried to make a little bit darker line. BRENNAN. That is as close as I can get it. BELIN. This is on Exhibit 482 — as to the angle at which you saw the rifle. And you say perhaps it wasn't out of the window as far as this line goes on Exhibit 482, is that correct? BRENNAN. Right. FORD. That is the angle that you believe the rifle was pointed? BRENNAN. Yes. DULLES. And that is from the area in the window from which the rifle was pointing? BRENNAN. Right BELIN. Could you tell whether or not any part of the rifle was protruding out of the window? BRENNAN. On a straight view like that it looked like it was. But as I have told investigating officers prior, a person would have to be at an angle to tell how much was protruding out of the window. It did look at that time that as much was protruding out of the window as there was in the window. BELIN. At this time, we offer and introduce into evidence Exhibits 480, 481, and 482. DULLES. They will be accepted. (The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 480, 481, and 482 were received in evidence.) McCLOY. I have one or two questions, if you are finished, Mr. Belin. BELIN. One more question, sir. Did you ever tell anyone that you were 90 yards away from that window where you saw the gun? BRENNAN. No. It was a misunderstanding. My first calculation was that I was about 75-foot out from the window, and the calculation of the window 75 foot up. So the hypotenuse there would be approximately 110-foot. That was my first calculation. But since we made a step of the grounds Friday, I was farther out than 75 feet. Approximately 93 feet is what we calculated Friday. BELIN. One additional question, sir. When did you first see Exhibit 479? BRENNAN. This morning. BELIN. This morning here. And on Exhibit 479, who picked the person out as being you in that picture? Was it you or was it I? BRENNAN. I did. I might add that prior to Friday, no one had ever gave me any information on your evidence whatsoever. BELIN. Well, on Friday you and I met for the first time in Dallas — that would be on March 20th. BRENNAN. Right BELIN. And we sat down and I asked you just to tell me what happened, is that correct? BRENNAN. That is right BELIN. Did I ask you a general question and say, "What happened?" Or did I just ask you repeated questions? BRENNAN. No. Well, you more or less told me to tell it in my own way exactly what happened. BELIN. And you just started to tell it, is that correct? BRENNAN. Yes. I believe that sums it up. BELIN. And then we then went outside where you pointed out the place where you were sitting? BRENNAN. Yes. BELIN. Do you remember the doctor that examined your eyes when you had them examined? BRENNAN. He is in Port Lavaca. He is the only leading optometrist there. BELIN. Would it be Dr. Howard R. Bonar? BRENNAN. That is right. How did you find that out? BELIN. Well, sir, it is on one of your interviews here. BRENNAN. Had that question been asked me before? BELIN. Yes, it had. On November 22, when you advised that you wore glasses for reading purposes only. BRENNAN. That is right, the FBI, Mr. Lish, right? BELIN. Yes, sir. McCLOY. That examination was before the sand blasting, of course. BRENNAN. Oh, yes, sir. The sandblasting wasn't until January or early February of this year. FORD. Did you have your glasses on at the time of the assassination? BRENNAN. No. McCLOY. You can see better at that distance without your glasses than with them? BRENNAN. Oh, yes, much better. Oh, I could put these glasses on and it is just like looking through a window pane. The upper part is just regular clear. DULLES. Do you have some questions, Mr. McCloy? McCLOY. Yes; I have some questions. You said you went across the street after having sort of jumped off this retaining wall in order to protect yourself against the possible fusillade of shots. BRENNAN. Right. McCLOY. Then you went across and picked up a police officer, is that right? BRENNAN. Right, sir. McCLOY. And then you went with him to the steps of the Texas School Book Depository? BRENNAN. Eventually, yes. McCLOY. How long did it take you, do you think, from the time of the — when you first got up — from the time of the last shot, how long would you estimate it would be before you got to the steps of the Texas Book Depository? BRENNAN. I could not calculate that, because before I got to the stops of the Texas Book Store, I had already talked to this officer, and he had taken me to the Secret Service men, I had talked to them. McCLOY. And you stayed behind the retaining wall for a little while until you saw the coast was clear? BRENNAN. Just seconds. I would say from the time the last shot was fired, and me diving off the wall there, and getting around on the solid side, and then running across to the officer, the time element is hard to figure, but it would still be in seconds. McCLOY. Then when you got to the officer he took you to a Secret Service man, and then the Secret Service man and you were on the steps of the depository? BRENNAN. Yes. Well, we talked at the car, and then when these two colored guys came down the stairway onto the street, I pointed to them, and identified them as being the two that was in the floor below that floor. And then Mr. Sorrels, I think, had to give some orders to someone in the book store. He walked me up the steps, and I stood on the top landing. McCLOY. When you were standing on those steps, did you see anyone pass you, or anyone that you could recognize as being — as looking somewhat like the man that you had seen in the window with the rifle? BRENNAN. No, I did not. DULLES. Did you give any estimate — was it a matter of 5 minutes, 6 minutes, 7 minutes? In general, how long did it take you from the time that you left where you were protecting yourself to the time you were on the front steps? What order of magnitude? 10 minutes? BRENNAN. No; it was a shorter time than that. I talked to Mr. Sorrels — I believe it was Mr. Sorrels — and the Secret Service men there — I don't believe I talked to them more than 3 to 5 minutes. McCLOY. But you had prior to that time talked to the police officer? BRENNAN. Yes. McCLOY. You said the police officer said, "Wait a minute." BRENNAN. Yes. McCLOY. How long was that? BRENNAN. That was quick, too. He gave his orders to some one on that side of the building, and then he had taken me to the Secret Service man. McCLOY. Did you have the feeling that the police had put a cordon around the building, and were they keeping people in, or were people coming in and out while you were there? BRENNAN. Well, I did, by the time I got on the steps of the Texas Book Store — I felt like that the place was completely surrounded and blocked by then. But at the time I ran across to this officer, I may have been completely wrong, they may have — the Secret Service men and police department, too, may have been directing their search to the building, but I felt as though they were directing their search to the west side of the building. McCLOY. You testified, I believe, that you saw them directing their search towards the wrong side of the building, so to speak? BRENNAN. Yes. That was my thoughts. McCLOY. And so that would indicate that at that time they were not blocking that particular entrance at the east side of the building, below the window that you saw the shot fired from? BRENNAN. Not according to my calculations. DULLES. Any other questions? FORD. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that perhaps in the case of Mr. Brennan and other witnesses, if a biography prepared by the individual, looked over by the staff, would not he helpful to include in the record — I don't mean a biography in great depth, but at least an outline of the individual's background — I think it would be helpful for the record. DULLES. We have certain information. BELIN. We have certain information in the record right now which we took at the very beginning of the session here this morning. FORD. Yes, I was present. But I think it is important to have more of a background of his education, experience, and I think it is wise to have it for all of the witnesses — not in great depth, but at least a background to show some biographical information. BELIN. Would you care to have that prepared by the witness himself, or here in the record? FORD. I would suggest that it be prepared initially by the witness, checked over by the staff, and then mutually agreed as acceptable through the witness, and then insert it in the record. DULLES. Prior to his testimony? FORD. Yes. BELIN. Would you be willing to furnish us with some kind of an autobiographical sketch of yourself — your date and place of birth, where you went ,to school, your education, your jobs that you have had, and perhaps it also should include some kind of a physical description as to your approximate height and weight and what-have-you? BRENNAN. Not at all. But you sure going to be confused on my jobs, sir. BELIN. Because you have gone from one job to another? BRENNAN. Well, I worked under the union constitution for the last 20 years, and I have worked for many a contractor. BELIN. You mean you just work on contract, and when you are through with that particular construction job, the union would send you to another construction job? BRENNAN. Yes. Usually a contractor wants me to go to the State of Washington, like I did in California, or he wants me to go to Utah or somewhere like that. DULLES. I don't think we need all that detail. BELIN. In other words, you have been a steamfitter. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. With the exception of the possibility of 2 years I was in business in California, private business. McCLOY. Are you a member of a church? BRENNAN. Yes, sir. McCLOY. What church are you a member BRENNAN. Baptist. McCLOY. You testified you were a Bible reader. BRENNAN. Well, I don't read it as much as I should. McCLOY. When you do, you have to wear glasses? BRENNAN. Yes, sir. DULLES. Any other questions? BELIN. There have been two or three other questions that have come up here, sir. One question — when we visited on Friday in Dallas, what is the fact as to whether or not I told you what to say or you yourself just told me what you wanted to tell me? BRENNAN. I told you — you did not instruct me what to say at all. I told you in the best words I could to explain exactly my movements and what happened. FORD. And here today you have testified freely on your own? BRENNAN. Right, I have. DULLES. Anything you would like to add? BELIN. One other question, sir. For the record, would you repeat what I would say would be a full statement of the reasons which caused you to state in your December interview to the FBI that you had always been convinced that the man you saw in the lineup was the man you saw firing the rifle, whereas on November 22nd you declined to give positive identification. Could you give all of the reasons, please? BRENNAN. Well, as I previously have said, I had saw the man in the window and I had saw him on television. He looked much younger on television than he did from my picture of him in the window — not much younger, but a few years younger — say 5 years younger. And then I felt that my family could be in danger, and I, myself, might be in danger. And since they already had the man for murder, that he wasn't going to be set free to escape and get out of the country immediately, and I could very easily sooner than the FBI or the Secret Service wanted me, my testimony in, I could very easily get in touch with them, if they didn't get in touch with me, and to see that the man didn't get loose. FORD. When you got home, about 3 o'clock, on November 22nd, that is when you did get home — BRENNAN. Yes. FORD. Was your wife there? BRENNAN. Yes. FORD. Did you and your wife discuss any aspects of the assassination and your being present, more or less, at the scene of the assassination? BRENNAN. Yes; we discussed it. We talked — I talked of moving her and my grandson, which was living with us at that time and my daughter — moving them out of town somewhere in secrecy. FORD. Why did you talk about moving your wife and your grandson out of town on this afternoon on November 22nd? BRENNAN. Because I had already more or less given a detailed description of the man, and I talked to the Secret Service and gave them my statement, and they had convinced me that it would be strictly confidential and all that. But still I felt like if I was the only eyewitness, that anything could happen to me or my family. So that was just about the length of our discussion of it. She seemed to think that a person can't get away — wherever they go. FORD. Did you talk to anybody else between 3 p.m., November 22nd and the time when one of the law enforcement agents came out and picked you up that day? BRENNAN. Not to tell — not to give any information out. My wife and I went to the bank in Mesquite that evening, and my daughter was at home. And I told her if anyone called to first have them identify themselves, and find out the nature of their business that they wanted me for, and if it was the FBI or the Secret Service, to tell them where they could contact me. And so we were in the bank, I believe, talking to the vice president that evening. My daughter called and said Mr. Sorrels had called, and that he had requested her to get the word to me to call him. And she called me at the bank, and then I asked the secretary to get the number for me. And I called Mr. Sorrels, and Mr. Sorrels told me there would be a man to pick me up at 6 o'clock promptly. FORD. 6 p.m., November 22nd. BRENNAN. Yes; that is right. FORD. And he did pick you up, and you did go down to the police station? BRENNAN. Yes, sir. BELIN. When you got back from the police station, did you have any further conversation with your wife about what you saw in the police station? BRENNAN. Yes. But I don't believe I explained to her full details. She probably remembers whether I did or not, but I don't. I believe I just told her that I would not identify, make positive identification. I believe that is all I told her. BELIN. That you would not, or that you could not? BRENNAN. I believe I told her I would not. BELIN. Do you remember the specific color of any shirt that the man with the rifle was wearing? BRENNAN. No, other than light, and a khaki color — maybe in khaki. I mean other than light color — not a real white shirt, in other words. If it was a white shirt, it was on the dingy side. BELIN. I am handing you what the court reporter has marked as Commission Exhibit 150. Does this look like it might or might not be the shirt, or can you make at this time any positive identification of any kind? BRENNAN. I would have expected it to be a little lighter — a shade or so lighter. BELIN. Than Exhibit 150? BRENNAN. That is the best of my recollection. BELIN. All right. Could you see the man's trousers at all? Do you remember any color? BRENNAN. I remembered them at that time as being similar to the same color of the shirt or a little lighter. And that was another thing that I called their attention to at the lineup. BELIN. What do you mean by that? BRENNAN. That he was not dressed in the same clothes that I saw the man in the window. BELIN. You mean with reference to the trousers or the shirt? BRENNAN. Well, not particularly either. In other words he just didn't have the same clothes on. BELIN. All right. BRENNAN. I don't know whether you have that in the record or not. I am sure you do. DULLES. Any further questions? I guess there are no more questions, Mr. Belin. BELIN. Well, sir, we want to thank you for your cooperation with the Commission. DULLES. Thank you very much for coming here. TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN RESUMED BELIN. Mr. Brennan, you are the same Howard Leslie Brennan who testified this morning here? BRENNAN. Yes, sir. BELIN. Do you know a George Murray, of the National Broadcasting Co.? BRENNAN. I do not. BELIN. Have you ever worked for the Union Terminal Co. McCLOY. You are still under oath, you realize. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. BELIN. Have you ever worked for the Union Terminal Co. in Dallas? BRENNAN. I have not. BELIN. Did you ever state to anyone that you heard shots from opposite the Texas School Book Depository and saw smoke and paper wadding come out of boxes on a slope below the railroad trestle at the time of the assassination? Did you ever say that or that, in substance, to anyone? BRENNAN. I did not BELIN. That is all. BRENNAN. Is there another Howard Brennan? BELIN. Well, sir; we don't know. We wanted to know whether or not you ever made this statement to anyone. BRENNAN. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Brennan. BRENNAN. I would like to ask a question off the record. The CHAIRMAN. Off the record. (Discussion off the record.) Afternoon Session TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN RESUMED The President's Commission reconvened at 2:05 p.m. McCLOY. The purpose of today's hearing is to have the testimony of Mr. Brennan here and you gentlemen. Mr. Williams has already appeared before us, and Mr. Norman and Mr. Jarman and also Mr. Truly who will be on the stand later. You were all witnesses, you were all in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination of President Kennedy, and we are going to ask you to give us your knowledge of the facts such as they come within your knowledge of that event and we will have some questions that we will wish to ask you. BALL. The record will show that Harold Norman, whose nickname is Hank, is present and Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, whose nickname is Junior. Mr. Brennan is also. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, you testified here this morning, is that correct? BRENNAN. Right. McCLOY. You are still under oath, Mr. Brennan. BELIN. I believe that you testified that you thought you recognized two of the people that you saw looking out of the fifth floor of the School Book Depository Building you thought you recognized outside of the building sometime after the assassination, is that correct? The two people that you saw, are they any of these three people here? BRENNAN. Yes. I believe it is the one on the end and this one here, I am not sure. BELIN. By that you would mean— BRENNAN. I don't know which of those two. BALL. Let's identify. BELIN. Which person do you mean, you mean Mr. Norman sitting opposite? BRENNAN. Yes; I believe he was one of them. BELIN. And you believe it was Mr. Jarman together? BRENNAN. Jarman. BELIN. Were they with some policeman as they came out of the building or in custody of some plainclothesman? BRENNAN. I don't believe they were. BELIN. You saw them together come out of the building? BRENNAN. I don't believe they were. I don't recall seeing any officer bring them out or with them. BELIN. Now you do not believe then that it was Mr. Williams? BRENNAN. No; I won't say for sure. I can't tell which of those two it was. BELIN. In other words, you say that you can't, when you say you can't tell whether it was Mr. Williams or Mr. Norman, did you just see one person or two? BRENNAN. I saw two but I can't identify which one it was. BELIN. Could it have been neither one of these persons that you saw? BRENNAN. I think it was one of them. I think it was this boy on the end. BELIN. You thought it was Mr. Norman. And what about Mr. Jarman? BRENNAN. I believe it was him, too. Am I right or wrong? BALL. I don't know. BRENNAN. I explained that to you this morning. BALL. I understand. Any questions? McCLOY. Did you recognize anyone in this room that you saw in the fifth floor window while you were sitting on the masonry opposite the school book depository? BRENNAN. That is the two boys that I am speaking of now. McCLOY. That you are speaking of now? BRENNAN. Yes. McCLOY. You saw these two men in the fifth floor window and you saw them again on the first floor? BRENNAN. Coming out of the building down the stairway, coming out on the street, those were the only two people I could identify. BELIN. I hand you — BRENNAN. I recall seeing three people with you I — BELIN. I hand you Exhibit 477 which you testified to this morning was a recent picture taken of the Texas School Book Depository Building on March 20. This is you sitting on that concrete wall? BRENNAN. Right. BELIN. At first I believe this morning you thought that you saw one person or two people at the point marked B, and then you later said it was to the window which would be to the — BRENNAN. Left. BELIN. Well, let's talk about directions. This direction here would be to the east and this direction here would be to the west? BRENNAN. Right. BELIN. Would it be a window to the east or west? BRENNAN. I believe it was a window to the east. BELIN. So you saw, you believe you saw two people in this window here to the east of the window that you first marked B? BRENNAN. Yes. I am not positive. BELIN. You are not positive? BRENNAN. No. REDLICH. Mr. McCloy, may I have permission to ask this question of this witness? McCLOY. Very well. REDLICH. You stated that you saw two employees walking down the steps of the building? BRENNAN. Yes. REDLICH. Do you recall whether the two employees that you saw walking down the steps of the building were the same two employees that you saw on the window, in the window on the fifth floor at the easterly most end of the building? BRENNAN. Yes; as far as on the fifth floor and at one of these two windows. The one I circled or this window here. REDLICH. You mean two of the people that you — BRENNAN. At one of the windows I saw two, two of those people, employees that came down. REDLICH. But you are not prepared to state which of these three possible windows? BRENNAN. That is right REDLICH. By three, I mean the two windows to the east, plus the one window which is circled and marked with a B. BRENNAN. Nothing makes me think that they were in this window but I am in question whether it was this window or this window. REDLICH. And of the two people that you saw, it is possible you are saying that one might have been in the window marked B and another might have been in a window to the east? BRENNAN. Yes. REDLICH. Thank you. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, are you basing your recollection on what you saw during the moments that the shots were fired or on what you saw when you observed these windows prior to the time the motorcade arrived? BRENNAN. What I saw prior. There was no significance to the fact at all. In other words, there is a little difference in your memory there on this. BALL. No questions. You may be excused, Mr. Brennan. <DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2>H. Brennan's Affidavit</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> AFFIDAVIT OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN The following affidavit was executed by Howard Leslie Brennan on May 7, 1964. PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY STATE OF TEXAS, AFFIDAVIT Council of Dallas: I, Howard Leslie Brennan, being first duly sworn, do upon oath depose and state: On or about March 24, 1964, I testified in Washington, D.C., before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. In that connection I testified as to the reasons why I declined on November 22, 1963, to give positive identification of Lee Harvey Oswald as the man I saw firing a rifle from the southeast corner of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963. Included in these reasons at pages 3629 and 3630 of Volume 28 of the transcript of the Commission proceedings are the following reasons: "And then I felt that my family could be in danger, and I, myself, might be in danger. And since they already had the man for murder, that he wasn't going to be set free to escape and get out of the country immediately, and I could very easily sooner than the FBI or the Secret Service wanted me, my testimony in, I could very easily get in touch with them, if they didn't get in touch with me, and to see that the man didn't get loose." "Because I had already more or less given a detailed description of the man, and I talked to the Secret Service and gave them my statement, and they had convinced me that it would be strictly confidential and all that. But still I felt like if I was the only eye witness, that anything could happen to me or my family." I have also been advised that on page 3595 of Volume 28 of the transcript of the Commission proceedings, the following appears: BELIN. What do you mean by security reasons for your family, and yourself? BRENNAN. I believe at that time, and I still believe it was a Communist activity, and I felt like there had been more than one eye witness, and if it got to be a known fact that I was an eye witness, my family or I, either one, might not be safe." I hereby state that this is a court reporter's error and that in truth and in fact my answer to the question was: BRENNAN. I believe at that time, and I still believe it was a Communist activity, and I felt like there hadn't been more than one eye witness. and if it got to be a known fact that I was an eye witness. my family or I, either one, might not be safe." Signed the 7th day of May 1964. ( S ) Howard Leslie Brennan, HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN. </DIVISION2><DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2>D. Harkness - police sergeant</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> TESTIMONY OF D.V. HARKNESS The testimony of D.V. Harkness was taken at 11:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex, by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. BELIN. Will you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? HARKNESS. I do. BELIN. Your name, sir, would you please state? HARKNESS. D.V. Harkness, Dallas Police Department. BELIN. Where do you live? HARKNESS. 2123 San Pablo. BELIN. Is that in Dallas? HARKNESS. Yes, sir. BELIN. What position do you have with the Dallas Police Department? HARKNESS. Sergeant of police. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? HARKNESS. Little over 17 years. BELIN. How old are you, sir? HARKNESS. Forty-two. BELIN. Did you go to school here in Dallas? HARKNESS. Yes, sir. BELIN. How far did you get through school? HARKNESS. High school. BELIN. High school graduate? HARKNESS. Yes, sir. BELIN. Then what did you do? HARKNESS. One year worked for the East Texas Refining Co. BELIN. Then what? HARKNESS. Then I worked for the Baker Hotel in the auditing office. BELIN. Then what did you do? HARKNESS. Went in the service for 4 years. BELIN. Army? HARKNESS. Coast Guard. BELIN. What did you do in the Coast Guard. generally? HARKNESS. I was a boatswain's mate second when I was discharged. BELIN. Doing what? HARKNESS. Let's see, I was on the troop transport at the time of my discharge. BELIN. Honorable discharge? HARKNESS. Yes, sir. BELIN. Then what did you do? HARKNESS. Come back and went to work for Alexander Motor Co. BELIN. As what? HARKNESS. Worked in the office in the purchasing department. BELIN. Then what did you do? HARKNESS. Went with the Dallas Police Department. BELIN. Been there ever since? HARKNESS. Ever since. BELIN. Were you on duty November 22, 1963? HARKNESS. Yes, sir. BELIN. Doing what? HARKNESS. Supervising the traffic officers from Main and Field along the parade route to Elm and Houston. BELIN. Where were you around 12:30 p.m.? HARKNESS. At Main and Houston. BELIN. On the east or west side of Houston? HARKNESS. West side of Houston. BELIN. Did you watch the motorcade come by? HARKNESS. Yes, sir. BELIN. Where were you when you heard the shots? HARKNESS. I had started west on Main Street to the, I don't know what they call this area here. BELIN. Plaza. HARKNESS. On the plaza area with the crowd to observe the President as he went west on Elm Street. BELIN. How many shots did you hear? HARKNESS. Three. BELIN. What did you do after you heard those noises? Did you know they were shots, by the way? HARKNESS. Yes, sir. BELIN. What did you do? HARKNESS. When I saw the first shot and the President's car slow down to almost a stop — BELIN. When you saw the first shot, what do you mean by that? HARKNESS. When I heard the first shot and saw the President's car almost come to a stop and some of the agents piling off the car, I went back to the intersection to get my motorcycle. BELIN. You were in the process of doing that when you heard the second and third shots? HARKNESS. Yes, sir. BELIN. Where did the shots sound like they came from? HARKNESS. I couldn't tell. They were bouncing off the buildings down I couldn't tell. BELIN. You mean the reverberations? HARKNESS. Yes. BELIN. Then what did you do? HARKNESS. I went west on Main to observe the area between the railroad tracks and Industrial. BELIN. Why did you go down there? HARKNESS. By the way the people, when I went into this area, everybody was hitting the ground, and someone led us to indicate that the shots were coming into the cars. BELIN. You mean from some point in front of the cars? HARKNESS. Yes. BELIN. Do you know who that someone was? HARKNESS. No, sir. BELIN. What did that person do that indicated that? HARKNESS. I don't remember. BELIN. Then what did you do? HARKNESS. I went down to Industrial to see if I could see anyone fleeing that area. BELIN. What did you see? HARKNESS. I didn't see anyone, so I come back to the front of the Book Depository and went around to this fence that was across the street from Elm Street. BELIN. What do you mean across the street from Elm Street? HARKNESS. Again, I will have to — near the railroad track. BELIN. Behind the building? HARKNESS. No, sir; this area right here. See, Elm Street goes down. BELIN. What you are really saying HARKNESS. This area. BELIN. You are pointing to a place between what would be the extension of Elm that doesn't go down is to the parkway but the actual extension of Elm? HARKNESS. Yes; to the plaza area. BELIN. The plaza area? HARKNESS. Yes, sir. BELIN. What did you find there? HARKNESS. I found a little colored boy, Amos Euins, who told me he saw the shots come from that building. BELIN. Now you just picked out a little small book, one of these little pocket notebooks? HARKNESS. Yes, sir. BELIN. Or a note pad from your pocket here. Is that the original notation that you made? HARKNESS. Yes, sir. BELIN. When did you make that notation? HARKNESS. Immediately after the shooting. BELIN. Is that your own record that you have kept in your possession since then? HARKNESS. Yes, sir. I turned — BELIN. You turned what? HARKNESS. After I took his name and address and put this information on the radio, I then took him on the back of my three-wheel motorcycle and put him in Inspector Sawyer's car. BELIN. Now you mentioned that you put something on the radio here, and I hand you here what has been marked as Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A. Before doing that, do you remember what call number you used, you were using on that day? HARKNESS. I believe 260. BELIN. Well, I notice here that there is a call with a notation at 12:36 p.m., 260 to 531. 531 is your office in the main station? HARKNESS. Yes, sir. BELIN. What does it say there on that transcript? HARKNESS. "Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository store at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building." BELIN. All right, that was at 12:36 p.m.? HARKNESS. Yes, sir. BELIN. Had the building been sealed off at that time? HARKNESS. Not to my knowledge. There were several officers around it, but I don't know whether it had been sealed off or not. BELIN. In the process of sealing off the building, what did you do? HARKNESS. Asked for a squad. BELIN. How long did it take you after that to have the back part sealed off? HARKNESS. The squad was arriving by the time I got off my motorcycle. There was already additional squads en route. BELIN. How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off? HARKNESS. It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men. BELIN. You are talking about the back part of the building? HARKNESS. Yes. sir. BELIN. What about the front part of the building? When was that sealed off? HARKNESS. Inspector Sawyer and two officers were there. BELIN. By the time you got around to the front part of the building? HARKNESS. Yes, sir; by the time I put the witness in his car, I went immediately to the back. BELIN. In other words. as I understand the sequence, you first went to the back of the building and had that sealed off first, or not? HARKNESS. No. sir. BELIN. You tell me what happened then. HARKNESS. I had this witness with me. I didn't want to lose this witness. BELIN. All right. HARKNESS. So I took him to the car. BELIN. To Inspector Sawyer's car? HARKNESS. To Inspector Sawyer's car, which was right in front. BELIN. Which was parked in front of the Texas School Book Depository? HARKNESS. And left the witness there and went around to the back. BELIN. On whose radio did you call? Did you call in before or after you left the witness in the car? HARKNESS. I don't remember in exact sequence there, but it was in the process of going to the car there. BELIN. Then what did you do? HARKNESS. See, here is the thing. The radio traffic was heavy at the time, and it depended on how long you had to wait to get in. BELIN. All right, in any event, after you made the call, what did you do on the radio? And after you got the man in the car? HARKNESS. Well — BELIN. The witness in the car, what did you do? HARKNESS. Stayed at the back of the building until I was relieved by a squad. BELIN. So you then went to the back of the building? HARKNESS. Yes. BELIN. When you were at Inspector Sawyer's car, did you see him there? HARKNESS. Yes, sir. BELIN. Was he at his car? HARKNESS. Yes, sir; he was by his car, near his car. BELIN. Do you know whether or not he had gone inside the building yet? HARKNESS. No, sir. BELIN. You mean you don't know? HARKNESS. Don't know whether he had gone in or not. Actually, he was standing there in front taking information. All the information was being funneled to Inspector Sawyer. BELIN. Did you tell him you had a witness? HARKNESS. Yes, sir. BELIN. In his car? HARKNESS. Yes, sir. BELIN. At that time, had the building been sealed off yet when you told him that? HARKNESS. At that time? BELIN. When you told Inspector Sawyer that you had a witness that said the shot came from the building, up to that particular moment, had the front part of the building been sealed off yet? HARKNESS. Yes, sir. BELIN. It had already been sealed off? HARKNESS. There was two officers with Inspector Sawyer at the front. BELIN. Were they stopping people from going in and out? HARKNESS. I don't know. BELIN. You don't know? HARKNESS. No, sir; I don't know that, because I didn't go up and talk to them. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not people were coming in and out of the building? HARKNESS. No. I was interested in getting around to the back of the building to make sure it was. BELIN. Then am I correct that your testimony is that you didn't notice whether people were coming in and out? Did you notice, or did you not notice whether people were coming out of the building at that time? HARKNESS. Several officers at the area, and it was a lot of people around. I don't know whether they were going in or out or not. I couldn't say that. BELIN. Then you went around to the back of the building? HARKNESS. Yes, sir. BELIN. Was anyone around in the back when you got there? HARKNESS. There were some Secret Service agents there. I didn't get them identified. They told me they were Secret Service. BELIN. Then did you stay around the back of the building? HARKNESS. Yes; I stayed at the back until the squad got there. BELIN. Then what did you do? HARKNESS. I went back to the front, and Inspector Sawyer — helped to get the crowd back first, and then Inspector Sawyer assigned me to some freight cars that were leaving out of the yard, to go down and search all freight cars that were leaving the yard. BELIN. Then what did you do? HARKNESS. Well, we got a long freight that was in there, and we pulled some people off of there and took them to the station. BELIN. You mean some transients? HARKNESS. Tramps and hoboes. BELIN. That were on the freight car? HARKNESS. Yes, sir. BELIN. Then what did you do? HARKNESS. That was all my assignment, because they shook two long freights down that were leaving to my knowledge, in all the area there. We had several officers working in that area. BELIN. Do you know whether or not anyone found any suspicious people of any kind or nature down there in the railroad yard? HARKNESS. Yes, sir. We made some arrests, I put some people in. BELIN. Were these what you call hobos or tramps? HARKNESS. Yes, sir. BELIN. Were all those questioned? HARKNESS. Yes, sir; then were taken to the station and questioned. BELIN. Any guns of any kind found? HARKNESS. Not to my knowledge. BELIN. I want to go back to this Amos Euins. Do you remember what he said to you and what you said to him when you first saw him? HARKNESS. I went in that crowd up there near the area there, and asked did anyone see any place where the shots come from, and there was an unidentified person pointed to him, said this boy here saw it, saw the shots, where the shots came from, and he told me it was. BELIN. Then what did he say? HARKNESS. He told me that the shots came from the window under the ledge. BELIN. Of what building? HARKNESS. Of the School Book Depository. BELIN. Now have you since gone back to that building? HARKNESS. Yes, sir. BELIN. Do you know where the ledge is? HARKNESS. Yes, sir; let's see, I have been by the place a million times. The ledge there is the one window where it came from, I believe. BELIN. You can't right now definitely state what floor the ledge would be? HARKNESS. Well — BELIN. If you can't, I would rather not have you guess, but if you do know, I would like to have you state. HARKNESS. I believe that it — BELIN. Sergeant, now, do you know where that ledge is now? HARKNESS. Yes, sir. BELIN. Between what floors is the ledge? HARKNESS. The ledge is between, over the sixth floor. BELIN. All right, well here in your police report I show you Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, you said the, "Witness says shots came from fifth floor Texas School Book Depository." Did the witness say it was from the sixth floor, or did he say it was from the fifth floor? HARKNESS. He said it was from the fifth floor. BELIN. What were the exact words of the witness? HARKNESS. The exact words of the witness, "It was under the ledge," which would put it on the sixth floor. It was my error in a hasty count of the floors. BELIN. Did the witness say what particular window on that floor that he saw it on? On the floor under the ledge? HARKNESS. Said it was the last window, which would indicate it would be the last window on the east side of the building. BELIN. Did he say to his right as he saw it, or did he just say the last window from where he was standing? HARKNESS. Last window from where he was standing, and at that point it would indicate that it would be the last window on the east side of the building facing Elm Street. BELIN. Were you standing at the time, on the north or south side of Elm when you talked to this witness? HARKNESS. I was. BELIN. When you were with this witness, had this Amos Euins, were you standing on the north or the south side of Elm as it goes into the Parkway there? HARKNESS. Elm as it goes under the Parkway — was between Elm where it goes under the triple underpass, and the extension of Elm there in that park area. BELIN. So that is where you were standing? HARKNESS. Yes. BELIN. So that would be north of Elm as it goes into the underpass, but south of the extension of Elm? HARKNESS. Where that building is, yes, sir. BELIN. Would you have been west of the School Book Depository Building that time? HARKNESS. Yes. BELIN. So the witness pointed to the last one on that floor? That would be the last one which would be to the east, is that correct? HARKNESS. That's correct BELIN. Anything else you can remember this witness said? HARKNESS. No, sir. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he saw a rifle? HARKNESS. He couldn't tell. BELIN. Sergeant, do you remember anything else that you said? HARKNESS. No, sir. BELIN. Did you actually talk to any other person whose name you recorded in your little book there? HARKNESS. Yes, sir; Arnold Rowland. BELIN. Arnold Rowland? HARKNESS. Yes, sir. BELIN. What did he say? HARKNESS. He said that he saw a man on one of those floors. He didn't clearly identify it, as he saw a man with a high-powered rifle walking around up there. BELIN. Did he say anything else that you could have recorded there? HARKNESS. No, sir. BELIN. Anything else you remember? HARKNESS. Except his address. I have his address as 3026 Hammerly. BELIN. Did he say anything else? HARKNESS. No, sir. BELIN. Is there anything else that happened that day that might in any way be relevant to this investigation? HARKNESS. No, sir. BELIN. What did you do on Saturday? HARKNESS. Saturday I was assigned to traffic at Elm and Houston, between Elm and Main. BELIN. Is there anything else that you did on Saturday or on Sunday that might in any way be relevant to this area of inquiry? HARKNESS. On Saturday had a large crowd down there, and I observed Jack Ruby at the entrance of the jail down there on Saturday. BELIN. You saw Jack Ruby near the entrance of the jail on Saturday? HARKNESS. Yes, sir. BELIN. Has your statement already been taken by anyone before on the President's Commission? HARKNESS. Yes, sir. BELIN. But you did see Jack Ruby? HARKNESS. I testified in Ruby's trial to that effect. BELIN. Anyone else or anything else that might be in any way relevant here? HARKNESS. The only thing, on Sunday I was leaving town; going to Whitesboro, and my wife and kids, we heard over the radio that Oswald had been shot. When I arrived in Whitesboro, I called Capt. Fritz of the Dallas Police Department, and told him that I had seen Ruby near the entrance of the county jail the day before, which was a Saturday. BELIN. Anything else? HARKNESS. That is all. BELIN. But did you ever talk to Ruby at any time afterwards? HARKNESS. No, sir: not afterwards. BELIN. Did you know Ruby at all, or not? HARKNESS. I had met him, and being downtown traffic sergeant, I had seen him before, and I knew who he was, but other than that, that is all. BELIN. Is there any other thing you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that might in any way be relevant to the investigation of the assassination or the shooting of Officer Tippit? HARKNESS. No, sir; I don't have anything on that, other than what I heard over the radio. BELIN. By the way, did your witness ever say whether the person he saw at the window was a white man or Negro? HARKNESS. He just told me, he just said he couldn't identify him. That is what he told me. BELIN. Did he tell you whether or not it was a man? HARKNESS. I don't remember, because I knew I couldn't get any information out of him, enough to put out a description on it. BELIN. Anything else? HARKNESS. No, sir. BELIN. Sir, we want to thank you very much for coming down here and testifying. You have an opportunity, if you would like, to come back and read your deposition when it is typed, and sign it, or you can waive reading and signing it and just have the court reporter send the transcript to us directly in Washington. If you have any preference, you might let us know. HARKNESS. I have no preference. I just hope I have been able to help you on these directions, because they are complicated to give directions, especially when you try to convince. BELIN. In any event, do you want to sign or waive signing? You have the right to sign or you can waive the signing of it and send it directly to us, whatever you want to do. HARKNESS. Waiver is customary? It doesn't make any difference. BELIN. Some people do one way and some the other way. Do you want to come back and read it and sign it, or do you want to waive signing it and let the court reporter send us the transcript direct? HARKNESS. What has most of them been doing? BELIN. Gosh, I have them doing both ways. I couldn't tell you what most have been doing, sir. HARKNESS. I will just waive. </DIVISION2><DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2> J. Smith - police officer</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> TESTIMONY OF JOE MARSHALL SMITH The testimony of Joe Marshall Smith was taken at 1 p.m., on July 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, So help you God? SMITH. I do. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order No. 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the rules of procedure, you are entitled to have an attorney present, and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of your hearing. I know you didn't get that, because I just called you this morning, but I assume that since you are here, you are prepared to go ahead without an attorney, is that correct? SMITH. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record? SMITH. Joe Marshall Smith. LIEBELER. What is your address? SMITH. 12015 Androck. That is in Mesquite. LIEBELER. When were you born? SMITH. May 1, 1932. LIEBELER. Where? SMITH. Kleburg, Tex. LIEBELER. Would you outline briefly for us your educational background? SMITH. Yes, sir. I went to grade school in Seagoville up to the second grade. Then I went to Houston, Tex., and finished elementary school there, and then to junior high school, and through high school in Houston, Tex. Then I went into the U.S. Navy. LIEBELER. You are presently a uniformed officer of the Dallas Police Department? SMITH. That's right. LIEBELER. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? SMITH. Oh, nearly 8 years, in September it will be. LIEBELER. During that time, you have been working basically as a uniformed officer, patrolman? SMITH. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Have you been working in any specific type of assignment, or just what has been the nature of your work? SMITH. Well, I was in radio patrol 3 years. Then I went to traffic division point control, and that is what I am doing presently. LIEBELER. I understand that you were assigned to work in the vicinity of Elm and Houston on November 22, 1963, is that correct? SMITH. Correct. LIEBELER. Would you tell us when you first got that assignment and what you were told. SMITH. At approximately 8:45 or 9 o'clock that morning, November 22, we made detail, and Capt. P.W. Lawrence gave us the instructions that we were to, of course, hold the traffic up when the motorcade came through, and to assist in the crowd control, and be specifically on the lookout for anyone throwing anything from the crowd. That is about all I remember. LIEBELER. How many officers were with you as you were instructed at the detail at 8:45? That means, there was a formation of something in the office? SMITH. There was quite a few there. I don't know how many were there, but nearly the whole traffic department was there. LIEBELER. Did they all receive instructions from Captain Lawrence at the same time, or were they different specific instructions broken down? SMITH. There were some broken down instructions that some of the men had to stay over to get different detail aimed to them, but that was my instructions. LIEBELER. Did you receive those instructions in writing, or delivered orally? SMITH. Delivered orally. LIEBELER. In other words, the captain or someone working with the captain would have a list and he assigned certain men to certain places and gave them general instructions as to what they were to do; is that correct? SMITH. That's correct. LIEBELER. Men from the department were assigned all along the motorcade route from the airport into downtown Dallas; is that correct? SMITH. Correct. LIEBELER. And other men were given instructions similar to or the same as the ones that you were given? SMITH. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Which was to keep traffic out of the way when the motorcade was coming, and keep an open and clear route, and to engage in general crowd control activities? SMITH. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Were there any instructions given to you men about scanning buildings? SMITH. Sir, I don't remember. It is more or less the general thing to do. I mean just police the area. But I don't remember any specific instructions on that. LIEBELER. Now after you received your instructions at 8:45, what did you do? SMITH. I proceeded to the intersection of Elm and Houston, and it was about 9:50 or 10 o'clock when I was on the corner there. At approximately 11:50 or 12 o'clock, there was a white male that had an epileptic seizure on the esplanade on Houston Street between Main and Elm. Well, I went down to see if any assistance was needed, and I stayed there until the white male was loaded into an ambulance and sent to a hospital. Then I proceeded back to my assignment. LIEBELER. Were there any other officers there in connection with this fellow that had the epileptic fit? SMITH. Yes; there was one more. He was a radio patrolman. LIEBELER. Do you remember his name? SMITH. I don't remember his name. I swear, I was trying to think of it before this even. LIEBELER. He was a radio patrolman? You mean he was driving a motorcycle or had a car? SMITH. No; he was assigned, I think, if I am not mistaken, I think he was assigned to Main and Houston, and he was down there with the man when I arrived at the scene. LIEBELER. So you called an ambulance, or an ambulance was called and this man was taken away, and you went back to the corner of Elm and Houston Streets? SMITH. Yes. LIEBELER. How many officers were assigned at Elm and Houston? SMITH. Three of us. LIEBELER. Who were the other two men? SMITH. W.E. Barnett, and E. L. Smith. I think that is his initials. I know it is another Smith boy anyway. LIEBELER. How did you station yourself when you got there? SMITH. Just after we got the epileptic seizure en route to the hospital, I hadn't gotten back to the corner but just a few minutes until the motorcade was coming, so I stationed myself on Elm Street in the middle from the southeast curb of Elm and Houston and held traffic. LIEBELER. Which direction would this traffic have been coming from that you held up? SMITH. It was heading west on Elm. LIEBELER. Coming down Elm toward the triple underpass? Coming into the intersection of Elm and Houston? LIEBELER. So you were the individual patrolman who went back and held up the traffic to Elm Street; is that right? SMITH. Yea. LIEBELER. So you would have been on the eastern side of Houston Street on Elm Street holding up the traffic that was coming down Elm Street? SMITH. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. From that position, could you have observed the windows on the side of the Texas School Book Depository Building from which the shots were fired? SMITH. Yes, sir; I could see some of the windows. I couldn't see them all, but I was pretty busy getting traffic held up, and I must admit I had my back to the Texas School Book Depository Building. LIEBELER. Because you were facing traffic that was coming down Elm Street toward the triple underpass toward the intersection of Houston Street? SMITH. Right LIEBELER. So you had no opportunity to scan the windows of the Texas School Book Depository Building at all? SMITH. No, sir. LIEBELER. And you did not scan the building? SMITH. No, sir. LIEBELER. Now did you notice anything extraordinary in the crowd as far as a crowd control is concerned? Did you have any problems in that connection, or was it just a matter of holding up the traffic? SMITH. No, sir; we didn't have any trouble with the crowd at that particular intersection. They stayed back pretty well as they were told, and I got all the cars stopped, so I thought we had it made. LIEBELER. I show you a picture, an aerial view of the area that is marked Commission Exhibit No. 354. Could you locate the Texas School Book Depository Building in there? SMITH. Yes, sir; it should be right there. LIEBELER. Yes; that is it on the left-hand side of the picture, and of course, the intersection of Elm and Houston is right off opposite the corner there, right at the corner of the Texas School Book Depository Building, and you were standing to the east? SMITH. Yes, sir; right here. LIEBELER. Of Houston? SMITH. Right along in this area. LIEBELER. There is, in fact, a picture of a car stopped there right at the intersection of Elm and Houston, and you had been standing back in the vicinity of the automobile? SMITH. Just about the middle of Elm Street here. LIEBELER. I will put the No. 4 in a circle on the spot of approximately where you were standing at the time the motorcade went by. Is that approximately correct? SMITH. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. You were facing east up Elm Street away from the triple underpass? SMITH. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. So that your back was in fact turned to the School Book Depository Building? SMITH. yes. LIEBELER. Now there are two or three other buildings here in the immediate vicinity as you are facing east on Elm Street. There is a building on your left, which is directly across Houston Street from the School Book Depository Building. Do you know what building that is? SMITH. I know, but I can't remember now. LIEBELER. Did you observe any activity in any of the windows of that building? SMITH. No, sir; I didn't. LIEBELER. Did you have occasion to look to the windows of that building at any time when the motorcade came by? That would be the building to your left. SMITH. Yes, sir. I don't recall, but I know that I must have, because I was trying to keep all the crowd in sight that was around. I know that I must have glanced at it, but I don't recall seeing anything unusual. LIEBELER. What about the building across Elm Street on your right? That is the county building? SMITH. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. There are a series of windows in that building facing the triple underpass. Could you observe those windows from the point where you were standing? SMITH. No, sir; not where I could tell whether they were open or closed. LIEBELER. Because you were standing too far up Elm Street to have a good vantage point from which to observe these windows? SMITH. I mean on Houston Street LIEBELER. That is what I mean. SMITH. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. You wouldn't have been able to see the windows of the building that is down on the intersection of Main and Houston Streets at all from where you were standing? SMITH. No. LIEBELER. If you could have seen, it would have been with great difficulty, so you weren't in position to observe those windows, and you didn't in fact observe them, is that correct? SMITH. Correct. LIEBELER. While you were standing here and the motorcade went by, tell us what happened at that point SMITH. I heard the shots. LIEBELER. Did you turn to watch the motorcade? Did you turn to watch the President as the motorcade went by? SMITH. Yes, sir; I glanced around and was watching the crowd to make sure they stayed back out of the way of the motorcade, and also to make sure none of the cars started up or anything. Then I heard the shots, and I immediately proceeded from this point. LIEBELER. Point 4 on Commission Exhibit No. 354? SMITH. I started up toward this Book Depository after I heard the shots, and I didn't know where the shots came from. I had no idea, because it was such a ricochet. LIEBELER. An echo effect? SMITH. Yes, sir; and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here. LIEBELER. You proceeded up to an area immediately behind the concrete structure here that is described by Elm Street and the street that runs immediately in front of the Texas School Book Depository, is that right? SMITH. I was checking all the bushes and I checked all the cars in the parking lot. LIEBELER. There is a parking lot in behind this grassy area back from Elm Street toward the railroad tracks, and you went down to the parking lot and looked around? SMITH. Yes, sir; I checked all the cars. I looked into all the cars and checked around the bushes. Of course, I wasn't alone. There was some deputy sheriff with me, and I believe one Secret Service man when I got there. I got to make this statement, too. I felt awfully silly, but after the shot and this woman, I pulled my pistol from my holster, and I thought, this is silly, I don't know who I am looking for, and I put it back. Just as I did, he showed me that he was a Secret Service agent. LIEBELER. Did you accost this man? SMITH. Well, he saw me coming with my pistol and right away he showed me who he was. LIEBELER. Do you remember who it was? SMITH. No, sir; I don't — because then we started checking the cars. In fact, I was checking the bushes, and I went through the cars, and I started over here in this particular section. LIEBELER. Down toward the railroad tracks where they go over the triple underpass? SMITH. Yes. LIEBELER. Did you have any basis for believing where the shots came from, or where to look for somebody, other than what the lady told you? SMITH. No, sir; except that maybe it was a power of suggestion. But it sounded to me like they may have came from this vicinity here. LIEBELER. Down around the — let's put a No. 5 there at the corner here behind this concrete structure where the bushes were down toward the railroad tracks from the Texas School Book Depository Building on the little street that runs down in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building. SMITH. Yes. LIEBELER. Now you say that you had the idea that the shots may have come from up in that area? SMITH. Yes, sir; that is just what, well, like I say, the sound of it. That was the most helpless and hopeless feeling I ever had. LIEBELER. Well, you mentioned before there was an echo from the shots in the area. SMITH. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Probably caused by the fact that there are some large buildings around the area where the shots were fired from? SMITH. Yes. LIEBELER. Now did you at any time have occasion to look up to the railroad tracks that went across the triple underpass? SMITH. Yes, sir; I looked up there after I was going up to check there. LIEBELER. You didn't have any occasion to look up there before you heard the shots? SMITH. No, sir. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots, you proceeded down along the bushes here between the street that runs in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building and Elm Street to approximately point 5, and then when you went down looking to the cars, you then had occasion to look up at the railroad tracks running over the triple underpass? SMITH. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody up there? SMITH. Yes, sir; there was two other officers there, I know. LIEBELER. Were there any other people up there, that you can remember? SMITH. No, sir; none that I remember. LIEBELER. But you remember that there were two police officers up there? SMITH. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Now you searched these cars in this parking lot area down there by the railroad tracks on from point 5 down toward the main railroad tracks that cross over the triple underpass. Did you find anything that you could associate in any way with the assassination? SMITH. No, sir. LIEBELER. How long did you remain down in that area? SMITH. Oh, I would say approximately 15 to 20 minutes. LIEBELER. During that time, you continued searching through automobiles and searching the general area in the parking lot back there; is that right? SMITH. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. What did you do after you had searched this area? SMITH. Well, it was, I don't remember whether this was a deputy sheriff — I don't know his name — he was in civilian clothes — he said they came from the building up here. And by that time, of course, all the police around there sealed the building off, and I went to the front door here on the, well, you might say, the Houston Street side. I and Barnett, and we sealed the front door and didn't let anyone in or out until he was passed by the chief. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this. Before you went up to the School Book Depository Building, am I correct in understanding that you did thoroughly search the area of the parking lot, you and the other officers? SMITH. Well, now, I didn't go into all the cars. I looked into them, and I was well satisfied in my mind that he wasn't around there. Some of the care were locked, and I just looked into all of them around there, and I went back to the building. LIEBELER. Who gave you instructions to go to the front door of that building, do you remember? SMITH. I believe it was Sergeant Howard. LIEBELER. Sergeant Howard? SMITH. Sergeant Howard, or Sergeant Harkness. LIEBELER. So to the best of your recollection, it was one of those two men? SMITH. Yes, sir. Wait — let's strike that. No; it wasn't. It was Chief Lumpkin give us the direct order, I and Barnett, not to let anyone in or out of that building; that's right — Deputy Chief Lumpkin. LIEBELER. Where did you see him in order to receive that order? SMITH. I started back up here to the building, and we were just about at the front door — when he contacted me and Barnett then. LIEBELER. He instructed you and Barnett to stand at the front door and not let anyone in or out? SMITH. Right. LIEBELER. Do you know approximately what time that was? SMITH. No, sir; it must have been about 1. It was after 1 o'clock. don't remember; no. LIEBELER. How long did you and Barnett remain there at the front door? SMITH. Until about 2:30; I think I got off there. LIEBELER. Did you at any time go into the building? SMITH. No, sir. LIEBELER. Do you know whether other men were assigned to watch the back door? SMITH. No, sir; I don't know. I am quite certain there was. LIEBELER. But you had no personal knowledge of it at the time? SMITH. No, sir. LIEBELER. Because you were assigned to the front door, and that is where you stayed? SMITH. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. In fact, did you let anybody in or out of the building? SMITH. Well, now, we let police officers in, of course, and firemen. LIEBELER. The firemen came into the building? SMITH. Yes, sir; there was something on that that they had to get some — what was that, I don't recall what it was that they come in there for now. LIEBELER. There were some firemen from the Dallas Fire Department that went into the building? SMITH. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Did they come back to the front door? SMITH. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. How about Secret Service; were there any Secret Service agents around? SMITH. I don't know, sir. LIEBELER. Do you know Agent Sorrels, the agent in charge of the Dallas office of the Secret Service? SMITH. I saw him a few minutes, but I don't know him personally. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing him around that day? SMITH. No, sir; I don't remember. LIEBELER. Did you at any time see Lee Harvey Oswald come in or out of the building, or in the area at all? SMITH. No, sir. LIEBELER. Is there anything that happened while you were standing there with Barnett at the front door that you think would be of significance that the Commission should know about that I haven't asked you about? SMITH. No, sir; I don't LIEBELER. You just maintained the general guard duty there and only let the police officers and fire department in, and you don't have any specific recollection as to Secret Service agents. How about FBI agents; were there some of those? SMITH. Yes, sir; there were FBI agents. LIEBELER. You let them go in? SMITH. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Do you remember any specific FBI agents that were there? SMITH. No, sir; I don't remember any of the names. LIEBELER. Who finally relieved you from that particular duty post? SMITH. Let me think here a minute now. Chief Lumpkin, I know — I don't recall who the officer was. LIEBELER. I don't think it is of any particular importance if you can't recall. What did you do after you were finally relieved? SMITH. I don't know if this is of significance either, but they had set up, the Salvation Army had some coffee and I had a cup of coffee and proceeded on back to the Mercantile Bank. I had an extra job there that evening. LIEBELER. You were relieved from your duty post? Mr.SMITH. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. And went on about your own personal affairs? SMITH. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Did you conduct any additional investigation or have anything to do with the investigation of the assassination after that? SMITH. No, sir. LIEBELER. Did you know Officer Tippit? SMITH. Remotely. I didn't know him real well. Just knew him when I saw him. LIEBELER. When did you first hear about Oswald's capture? SMITH. It was after I left my post. LIEBELER. After you left your post? SMITH. Yes; in fact, just before I got off from working at the bank. Just before 6 o'clock. A squad of detectives, I don't recall their names, but they told me they got a man over at the Texas Theatre that they thought might have been the one. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots and went from point 4 on Commission Exhibit No. 354 down to point 5 searching the bushy area here, did you have any occasion to look up in the windows of any of the buildings surrounding the intersection of Elm and Houston Streets? SMITH. No, sir; I was — pardon the expression — beating the bushes and checking the cars. LIEBELER. So you never saw anything in any of those windows at all? SMITH. No, sir. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the traffic patterns on these three streets here, Commerce, Main, and Elm Streets, as they go down under the triple underpass? SMITH. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. The motorcade came down Main Street from the east to the intersection of Main Street and Houston, did it not? SMITH. Yes; headed west on Main. LIEBELER. Yes; and it turned right on Houston Street and then turned left on Elm and was headed toward the triple underpass when the assassination occurred. What would have prevented the motorcade from going directly down Main Street under the triple underpass, remembering now that the motorcade wanted to go onto Stemmons Freeway? SMITH. I don't know, sir. LIEBELER. Now, could you have gone straight down Main Street and gotten onto Stemmons Freeway down here? SMITH. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Where the three streets go under the triple overpass, there is a concrete barrier between Elm Street and Main Street; is there not? SMITH. What do you mean? LIEBELER. Where the streets actually go under the railroad tracks here. SMITH. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Now where is the entrance as we go off, as we see the three streets going off the picture here, Commission Exhibit No. 354? Where is the entrance to the Stemmons Freeway? SMITH. It is back off. LIEBELER. It is not shown on the picture? SMITH. No, sir; it is back off here. LIEBELER. To go down Stemmons Expressway or Freeway towards the trade mart, you would have to turn how? Would you turn to your right? SMITH. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. Now could you have actually gone off to the right and crossed over Elm Street if you had been on Main Street and gone under the triple underpass? SMITH. They merge. LIEBELER. They all merge together down there? SMITH. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. So as far as you know, there was no reason why the motorcade couldn't have gone straight down Elm Street and gone on to the Stemmons Freeway heeded for the trade mart? SMITH. As far as I know, there is no reason. LIEBELER. Is it possible that as you come down Main Street, if you stayed directly on Main Street going under the triple underpass, that you might have difficulty in making the turn with a big car from Main Street to go onto Stemmons Freeway? SMITH. Yes, sir. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions about the situation, unless you can think of something else that you might have been or observed that day that I haven't asked you about, that you think the Commission should know. SMITH. Sir, I just can't think of anything else. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much for coming over. I appreciate your cooperation. SMITH. Yes, sir; thank you. </DIVISION2><DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2>J. Crawford - county clerk</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> TESTIMONY OF JAMES N. CRAWFORD The testimony of James N. Crawford was taken at 11:15 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex, by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. BALL. Mr. Crawford, I'm Joe Ball and this is Lillian Johnson. CRAWFORD. Glad to know you. I know Lillian Johnson. How is Irving, by the way? BALL. Will you stand up, please, and hold up your right hand? CRAWFORD. (complying). BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this Commission shall be the truth; the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? CRAWFORD. I swear. BALL. My name is Joe Ball. I'm staff counsel with the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy and I have been authorized to question you and ask you to give us such information as you have as to the facts of the assassination and those things that you observed on November 22, 1963. Will you state your name for the court reporter? CRAWFORD. My name is James N. Crawford. BALL. What is your occupation? CRAWFORD. I am deputy district clerk. BALL. You received a request from the Commission in writing, did you not, requesting you to give this testimony? CRAWFORD. I did — BALL. You received it some time last week? CRAWFORD. Actually, it came to the office Saturday. I did not receive it until Monday. BALL. That will be Monday, March 30? CRAWFORD. Yes. BALL. Where were you born? CRAWFORD. I was born in Greenville, Texas. BALL. What was your general education? CRAWFORD. High school in Greenville, Texas, and college at Texas A. & M. BALL. What did you do after that, just a general sketch of some of your occupations? CRAWFORD. I worked for the Texas Company in New Orleans and have been in and out of the furniture business and in the oil business here in Dallas until I went with the county. BALL. How long have you been with the county of Dallas? CRAWFORD. About 10 years. BALL. You are a deputy county clerk there? CRAWFORD. District clerk. BALL. On November 22, 1963, about around 12 o'clock or so, where were you? CRAWFORD. I was in the office of the district clerk. BALL. Did you later leave and go out into the street? CRAWFORD. About 12:25, we left the office and went out to the corner of Houston and Elm. BALL. You went with whom? CRAWFORD. Mary Ann Mitchell. BALL. She works in the office with you? CRAWFORD. She is in the office with me. BALL. What is her occupation in the office? CRAWFORD. Assistant to the district clerk. (At this point, Mr. James Underwood enters the hearing.) BALL. Where is your office located in Dallas? CRAWFORD. It's located on the ground floor of the Records Building. BALL. What street? CRAWFORD. That's Record and Elm — that's Commerce, isn't it, Jim? UNDERWOOD. What's that? CRAWFORD. What is the street just north of the courthouse — that's Elm. UNDERWOOD. It's bordered by Elm, Main, Record, and Houston. BALL. You are located on the corner of — CRAWFORD. Elm. BALL. Elm and — CRAWFORD. And Record. BALL. And Record, and then you walked which direction? CRAWFORD. Well, actually, the courthouse is — I suppose our office would be considered on Elm and Houston. BALL. When you left your office, you walked on what street? CRAWFORD. Walked on Elm to Houston, rather than Record. BALL. In other words, you walked west on Elm towards Houston? CRAWFORD. Right. BALL. To what corner of Elm and Houston? CRAWFORD. That would be the corner of the courthouse. Do you want the direction of the intersection? BALL. Yes, where was it? Southeast, northwest corner of Elm? CRAWFORD. It's the northwest corner of the courthouse. BALL. The northwest corner of the courthouse — it's the southeast corner of the intersection? CRAWFORD. Southeast corner of the intersection. BALL. Where were you when you watched the President pass? CRAWFORD. I was at that location. BALL. Which corner of the intersection? CRAWFORD. The southeast corner of the intersection. BALL. Where was the Texas School Book Depository Building from where you were standing? CRAWFORD. It would be on the northwest corner of the intersection. BALL. Directly across? CRAWFORD. Yes; right. BALL. Did you have a good view at that point of the south exposure of the Texas School Book Depository? CRAWFORD. I had a very good angle. BALL. Did you see the President's car pass? CRAWFORD. I did. BALL. And just tell me in your own words what you observed after that? CRAWFORD. As I observed the parade, I believe there was a car leading the President's car, followed by the President's car and followed, I suppose, by the Vice President's car and, in turn, by the Secret Service in a yellow closed sedan. The doors of the sedan were open. It was after the Secret Service sedan had gone around the corner that I heard the first report and at that time I thought it was a backfire of a car but, in analyzing the situation, it could not have been a backfire of a car because it would have had to have been the President's car or some car in the cavalcade there. The second shot followed some seconds, a little time elapsed after the first one, and followed very quickly by the third one. I could not see the President's car BALL. At that time? CRAWFORD. That's right; I couldn't even see the Secret Service car, at least I wasn't looking for it. As the report from the third shot sounded, I looked up. I had previously looked around to see if there was somebody shooting firecrackers to sea if I could see a puff of smoke, and after I decided it wasn't a backfire from an automobile and as the third report was sounded. I looked up and from the far east corner of the sixth floor I saw a movement in the only window that was open on that floor. It was an indistinct movement. It was just barely a glimpse. BALL. Which window? CRAWFORD. That would be the far east window — BALL. On the — CRAWFORD. On the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. I turned to Miss Mitchell and made the statement that if those were shots they came from that window. That was based mainly on the fact of the quick movement observed in the window right at the conclusion of the report. BALL. Could you give me any better description than just a movement? Could you use any other words to describe what you saw by way of color or size of what you saw moving? CRAWFORD. If I were asked to describe it, I would say that it was a profile, somewhat from the waist up, but it was a very quick movement and rather indistinct and it was very light colored. It was either light colored or it was reflection from the sun. When the gun was found, or when a gun was found, I asked the question if it was white, simply because if it was a gun I saw, then it was either white or it was reflecting the sun so it would appear white or light colored. BALL. Did you see any boxes in that window? CRAWFORD. Yes, directly behind the window, oh possibly three feet or less, there were boxes stacked up behind the window and I believe it was the only place in the building that I observed where boxes were stacked just like that. BALL. Did you see any boxes in the window? CRAWFORD. No, I didn't see any. There wasn't any boxes in the window. BALL. Did you stay there at that point very long, the southeast corner? CRAWFORD. No; as I said, I couldn't observe the President's car and I had no actual knowledge that he had been shot, so realizing that we should get the information almost immediately from the radio which had been covering the motorcade — we had been listening to it prior to going on the street — I thought our best information would come from that, so we went, Miss Mitchell and I, went back into the office. I have no way of knowing the time. I would say it was a minute or — I would say a minute. BALL. After you heard the shots, did you return to the office? CRAWFORD. Yes. BALL. The movement that you saw that you describe as something light and perhaps a profile from the waist up, you mean it looked like a profile of a person? CRAWFORD. That was — I had a hard time describing that. When I saw it, I automatically in my mind came to the conclusion that it was a person having moved out of the window. Now, to say that it was a brown haired, light skinned individual, I could not do that. BALL. Could you tell whether it was a man or woman? CRAWFORD. I could not. BALL. You made a report to the Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 10th of January? CRAWFORD. Yes. BALL. Before I ask you about your report, did you have any impression as to the source of the sound, from what direction the sound came, the sound of the explosions? CRAWFORD. Yes; I do. As I mentioned before, the sound, I thought it was a backfire in the cavalcade from down the hill, down the hill toward the underpass. BALL. You mean west on Elm? CRAWFORD. Yes, and that was a little confusing and in analyzing it later, evidently the report that I heard, and probably a lot of other people, the officers or the FBI, it evidently was a sound that was reflected by the underpass and therefore came back. It did not sound to me, ever, as I remember, the high-powered rifle sounding. It was not the sharp crack. BALL. What caused you to look up at the Texas School Book Depository Building? CRAWFORD. The sound had to be coming from somewhere; the noise was being made at some place, so I didn't see anyone shooting firecrackers or anything else and I thought "this idiot surely shouldn't do such a thing," but if they were, where were they, and if they were shots, where were they coming from, and that caused me to search the whole area on Houston Street and in front of the Texas Depository on Elm Street and then up and that's how I happened to be looking up at the time, rather than observing things in the street, probably. BALL. Did you ever see any smoke? CRAWFORD. No, sir; I did not. BALL. In your remark to Mary Ann Mitchell, did you say "if those were shots, they came from that window"? CRAWFORD. Yes. BALL. That is what you reported to the FBI agent, also? CRAWFORD. Yes, I suppose; at that time, I was still not absolutely sure that they were shots and that's why I said if they were shots. I was basing that, I am sure I was basing that mainly on the fact of this quick movement that I observed. In other words, if I were firing the shots, I would have jumped back immediately at the conclusion of them. BALL. Later on, did you go back in the street and talk to someone? CRAWFORD. Yes. BALL. Did you talk to a deputy sheriff? CRAWFORD. Allen Swett. BALL. What did you tell him? CRAWFORD. I told him to have the men search the boxes directly behind this window that was open on the sixth floor — the window in the far east corner. BALL. Did you tell him anything of what you had seen? CRAWFORD. I don't think so. I think I was so amazed that I could walk across the street and walk up to this building that was supposedly under surveillance and the man had not been — I say "the man" — there had not been anyone apprehended. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots that you walked up to Allen Swett and talked to him? CRAWFORD. My guess is it could have been anywhere from 10-20 minutes. My guess would be around 15-20 minutes. BALL. In the statement you made to the FBI agent, he reports you said you walked to the Texas School Book Depository where you contacted Deputy Sheriff Allen Swett and advised him of the movement you had seen in the sixth floor window? CRAWFORD. I must have said something about the movement. I did tell him to search those windows, I think. BALL. Could you in your own words give us your memory of what you told Allen Swett? CRAWFORD. I would probably have said, as I remember it, that to have the men search — have someone search the boxes directly behind that window. I had seen some movement directly after the shots. That was, I think, all I said. I did not — there was no conversation and at the conclusion of my statement, he directed several men up there. BALL. Did you ever go in the building yourself? CRAWFORD. I did not and I still have not been in there. BALL. I think that's all, Mr. Crawford. Thanks very much. CRAWFORD. Thank you, Mr. Ball. BALL. Incidentally, will you waive signature on this? CRAWFORD. Yes; I will. </DIVISION2><DIVISION2><DIVISION2TITLE> <h2>A. Rowland - student</h2> </DIVISION2TITLE> TESTIMONY OF ARNOLD LOUIS ROWLAND SPECTER. Will you please state your full name for the record, Mr. Rowland? ROWLAND. Arnold Louis Rowland. SPECTER. What is your address? ROWLAND. 1131 Aphinney. SPECTER. And in what city do you reside? ROWLAND. This is Dallas, Tex. SPECTER. How long have you resided in Dallas, Tex. ROWLAND. About 9 months at present. SPECTER. Where did you live before coming to Dallas? ROWLAND. In Salem, Oreg. SPECTER. How long did you live in Salem, Oreg. ROWLAND. About 3 months. SPECTER. Where did you live before moving to Salem, Oreg. ROWLAND. Dallas. SPECTER. How long did you live in Dallas at that time? ROWLAND. About 4 years. SPECTER. Where were you born? ROWLAND. Corpus Christi, Tex. SPECTER. Have you lived in Texas most of your life? ROWLAND. Most of my life. SPECTER. What is your age at the present time, Mr. Rowland? ROWLAND. Eighteen. SPECTER. And what is your exact date of birth, please? ROWLAND. April 29, 1945. SPECTER. What is your marital status. ROWLAND. Married. SPECTER. Have you any children? ROWLAND. No. SPECTER. How long have you been married? ROWLAND. Ten months. SPECTER. What education have you had, sir? ROWLAND. High school. SPECTER. Are you attending high school at the present time? ROWLAND. I have finished, and fixing to go to college. SPECTER. When did you graduate from high school? ROWLAND. June 1963. SPECTER. How have you been occupied or employed since June of 1963? ROWLAND. Worked in Oregon at three different jobs, Exchange Lumber Co. as a shipping clerk,. Meier Frank Co. as a clothes salesman, and part time at West Foods. The business was mushroom processing. That was during the summer. Upon my return to Dallas, I worked part time, while doing some postgraduate work, at the Pizza Inn. At present I am working with the P.F. Collier Co. SPECTER. What sort of work are you doing with P.F. Collier Co? ROWLAND. That is promotional advertising. SPECTER. What college are you attending, if any, at the present time? ROWLAND. None at the present. SPECTER. What Postgraduate work had you been doing that you just mentioned? ROWLAND. Studies in math and science. SPECTER. Where were you studying these courses? ROWLAND. This was a high school in Dallas as advanced courses. SPECTER. Have you been accepted in any college? ROWLAND. Yes; several. Texas A. & M., Rice, SMU, Arlington. SPECTER. Do you have plans to attend one of those colleges? ROWLAND. Yes. SPECTER. Which one do you plan to enter? ROWLAND. Preferably Rice. SPECTER. Do you have an entry date set? ROWLAND. No; I am trying for a scholarship for it. SPECTER. Have you been in the military service? ROWLAND. No; I haven't SPECTER. What is the general condition of your