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- Path: sparky!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!Vision
- From: Vision@cup.portal.com (Vision - Tester)
- Newsgroups: rec.autos
- Subject: Re: FLAME! Only a Manual!
- Message-ID: <69425@cup.portal.com>
- Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 22:37:11 PST
- Organization: The Portal System (TM)
- References: <1992Nov5.063944.1@dac.mdcbbs.com>
- <1992Nov10.233727.11527@syacus.acus.oz.au> <69341@cup.portal.com>
- <BxL9H8.52v@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
- Lines: 90
-
- >While I am not disputing the weight problems, don't you also have to factor in
- >the power loss from the torque converter? Or is there a way to make an auto-
- >matic without a torque converter? Would this transmission have a clutch to be
- >used only for stops and starts?
-
- It would be interesting to see an automatic with a clutch. Torque converters
- probably do cause some power loss -- but how much power loss? How about
- five horses? Big deal -- get back those 5 horses by changing your spark plug
- (or hell, just change the spark plug gap!!)
- The faster shifts of a tricked transmission will outweigh all of its negatives.
- I know nobody that can shift as fast as some of those automatics. When it
- comes to today's vehicles, the manuals are faster (usually by a fraction of
- a second) because they shift faster. Considering how slow today's automatic
- transmission shift, do you really believe a manual is delivering more power
- when the car can do 0-60 in .05-.1 seconds faster after two shifts?
-
- >With the possible exception of a smooth, perfectly timed double-clutch down-
- >shift. This feels sublime when done well on ANY car, even a big manly muscle
- >car. The only advantage an automatic gives you, IMHO, is the pride of knowing
- >that your car doesn't need a stick to kick ass. But I have this nasty feeling
- >that the most worked-over, improved, revalved automatic is still going to
-
- True -- I won't be getting any smooth perfectly timed downshifts (if anything,
- I'll get a big jerk when downshifting), but the advantage is not the pride
- but the RIDE. I would NEVER put a stick shift and a big engine together. It
- would be ludicrous. I drive stick shifts and I think they have their place
- (and I enjoy driving them -- I drive a 4cyl with a stick shift 70% of the
- time). It is a great car, but there is no way I will put a stick behind
- muscle.
-
- >yield less impressive acceleration than a stick shift on the same engine. You
- >can't escape the fact that the torque converter eats energy, no matter what
- >type of engine it's hooked up to. The only cars that actually BENEFIT from
-
- Wrong. It doesn't take much to turn a transmission into a monster. Just
- buy a shifter kit (they run anywhere from $20-200+ depending on what you
- want to do, rebuild maybe?) and usually all you have to do is change the
- plate in the valve assembly. A 2 hour task and you WILL have a transmission
- that will shift fast than your wildest dreams. Be prepared to replace U-joints
- often, though!
-
- >A clutchless shift on a street transmission will be either quite slow or in-
- >credibly damaging to the transmission, especially the synchros. The only
- >place where a clutchless shift is beneficial speed-wise is on a crash box
- >with a VERY light flywheel.
-
- Quite slow?? I do clutchless shifts all the time, you just have to time it
- right. I can get my little banger to give a little kick (even screech
- going into 3rd!) That is with new tires, of course :-) Damaging to the
- transmission? If you grind, yes. The sudden torque may not be helpful, but
- any transmission worth its weight in dirt should be able to handle it (esp.
- with a 4cyl!!)
- But even my clutchless shifts do not compare with my automatic transmission.
- And I do not know how on earth I can shift a stick any faster than without
- using the clutch -- maybe I'm missing something, but I've been doing both
- methods for years and automatic wins hands down.
-
- >Now, a suggestion:
- >Find a mid-1970's Euro-spec BMW 3.0CSi. Tip gently into the throttle and slow
- -
- >ly release the clutch. Accelerate moderately to 3000 RPM in first gear. Stan
- d
- >on it. That smoke in your rear-view mirror ain't oil. Let the tires catch,
- >accelerate to redline, shift into second. Stand on it. Is that smoke again?
- >I think so.
-
- Thanks for the suggestion, but may I ask -- what does this have to do with the
- transmission? There is nothing there that could not be done if it was an
- automatic. Hell, if it wasnt for the big tires I put on my muscle cars, if I
- was to use the tires on today's so-called muscle/sports cars (actually
- I think they just call them sports cars) I would end up burning the tire to
- pieces in my driveway!!
-
- >As far as I'm concerned, the power and torque of a HUGE American V-8 make it
- >the best naturally aspirated engine for an automatic, but a huge American V-8
- >(or a high-compression cammed German straight-6) will always be at its best
- >when connected to a manual.
-
- If you buy anything made today, it is all preference. The automatics arent
- that great (but can usually be modified for drag performance in one
- afternoon) which is why the manuals will usually run better 0-60 times.
-
- It all comes down to preference. If you like sticks, drive them. If you
- like autos, drive them. But an automatic transmission can easily be
- modified to provide a FASTER and STRONGER shift than a manual transmission.
- This is a fact. There is no human that can shift as fast as some of these
- transmissions. But until you have driven the same car (with lotsa muscle)
- with both a stick and an automatic, you wont understand what I'm saying.
- It may be fun to play with 500hp and a stick, but in the end automatics
- win hands down.
-