NetNews Usenet Archive 1992 #26/NN_1992_26.iso/spool/comp/unix/question/13384

Internet Message Format | 1992-11-14 | 7.2 KB

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From: [e-mail] (Philippe Goujard)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions
Subject: Re: IS UNIX DEAD? (long)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Nov 92 17:41:12 GMT
References: <sherman.721291094@foster> <[e-mail]>
Organization: ICL, Bracknell, Berkshire, RG12 4SN, UK
Lines: 148

u>

[e-mail] (Paul Prescod) writes:

>Two different things.  Asking for a help key is really not as
>"pampered" as you would make it out.  As far as the hard drive:
>OS/2 and DOS both have reasonably good undelete procedures.  OS/2 just
>copies the file to a temporary directory in the background.

Yes this is something unix is not good at. There is no undelete. Maybe
replacing "rm" with "mv /trash" is enough. Maybe not.

>Microsoft has a  *PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE* built into word.  I can't
>imagine why someone would prefer a command line to keystrokes
>and requester windows.

Anyway I don't think it is very fair to compare vi and winword. One is a
text editor created to edit mostly C sources the other is a word processor
with graphic capabilities. Their have very very different purposes and if
you use vi as a word processor there is definitely something wrong somewhere.

>>>Why do I have 12 function keys on my keyboard that seem to do absolutely
>>>nothing?
>>
>>dumb question is this?  Are you blaming your keyboard manufacturer's
>>ills on Unix, or are you incoherently expecting that Unix assign some
>>sort of meaning to every key assignable?

>No it's not a dumb question.  There is no standard for help in the Unix
>world.  The f keys are seldom used in unix programs.  Most terminals
>have f keys.  It would seem this would be a good time to start convincing
>people to use F1 for help, n'est ce pas?


I havent come across many terminals with 12 function keys actually. I'm not
sure you can count the keybord of the IBM AT (the XT had only 10 fkeys)
since it is not really a terminal, it's a computer which can emulate
(sometimes well and sometimes not so well) terminals.

Anyway, whatever the number of function keys that your terminal have I agree
that Unix programs are not using them a lot.
So what can be done to improve it and what are the problems?

First you must remember that the "F1=Help" convention was really introduced
with IBM CUA standard (and therefore Windows and Presentation Manager.
Before that text applications implemented help the way they wanted (and some
still do). Under Unix, X-window itself is just the windows server but I'm
don't know if the GUI (openlook & motif) implement it. (maybe motif, can
someone confirm?).

Another problem to overcome is that many terminal emulators don't work too
well : they treat certain keys locally. When you press F1 on some terminal
emulators it doesnt send F1 to the remote machine and calls the local help
menu.

I suppose that what in the future, text applications will stay as they are
but GUI will provide a common way to call help.
(BTW I also like the help bubble in the Mac interface).

>>>Why does VI default to beeping at you when you try to type as opposed to
>>>editing?
>>
>>Because you're Making a Mistake, and vi appropriately tells you so.

>Why is typing text into a text editor "a mistake."  VI should default
>to typing mode.  It would 100% or more user friendly, as well as compatible
>with the other 1000 programs out there that claim to be editors.

Wasn't vi written at first to test your terminal speaker?
Fortunately when I started learning vi, I had a terminal where I could turn
down the volume, but now after 2 years of expereince I can produce text with
more characters than beeps :-)

>>>Is there a wordwrap mode in VI?  And if so, why doesn't it kick in when I
>>>use VI from RN?
>>
>>a) yes.  b) because your .exrc file is not set up correctly.

>How often does someone want to edit news without word wrap?  Wouldn't that
>make it logical to put word wrap in the standard .exrc file?

How often do one want to edit news with vi? Unless you have been using vi
for too long and you cannot do anything without it, leave it to the
programmers and use a more suitable editor when writing mail or news.

>Because they are not stupid questions.  They are good questions.  Obviously
>VI has flaws.  Obviously unix has flaws.  Everything has flaws.  It is
>frightening the way many Unix users refuse to admit that Unix has flaws.

Use the correct tool for the correct purpose and maybe you wont see as many
"flaws". Yes Unix can be inproved, administration could be simpled, GUI
could be more consistent there could also be an on-line tutorial for new
users etc... The problem is that I may not see the same flaws as you do.

>If you launch an editor from VI, that editor should be a wordprocessor.  If
>it is vi, vi should be in wordprocess mode.  If it doesn't, that is a flaw.

Where did you get the idea that vi had a "wordprocessor mode"? (and wordwrap
is not enough for me to be a wordprocessor mode!). It definitely hasn't. Vi
is an editor for editing C sources. It does it very good (at least that's
the opinion of people like me who have been using it for a long time) but it
is definitely not an all purpose editor. And if you don't like it in the
first place, don't use it.

The only thing you could argue is : why isnt there a choice of editor when
you buy your unix?
The answer is :
    - So far unix makers have considered that if you can't use vi you don't
    deserve to use unix. This is wrong and changing slowly.

    - The real well known competitor is emacs which has the problems of
        - Being nearly as cryptic as vi
        - Being "copylefted" so you can't include it in commercial unixes
        (although Dell includes it I think).

>If help does nothing at the command prompt.  That is a flaw.

Yeees, but what would you expect it to do? Would alias help man -k keep you
happy?

>If the cursor keys are illogical that is a flaw.

I suppose you are mistaking 'logical' and 'intuitive'. For me the intuitive
cursor keys on my terminal are those with the arrows on. And those don't
work intuitively under vi.

On all the implementations of vi I've seen typing :
"a hello <CRSR UP> world" works where "i hello <CSRS UP> world" does not!

Try to explain to a new-user the difference between moving the cursor to a
shorter line with append mode and insert mode !

And the reason why you leave the append or insert mode when reaching the end
of line is beyond me!

>Anything can be improved if we discuss the flaws and discuss ways to improve
>them.  If we treat those that notice flaws as blasphemers, we all end up
>using 1970s text editors in 1992, and unix dies.

Unix does not "die", we are speaking of a very SMALL market of unix here :
the market of personnal computers - low-end workstations. Even if unix is
not doing good in that market (which I agree is important and mostly
dominated by Microsoft and Apple at the moment) it will still be alive and
kicking in all the other markets.

--
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Philippe GOUJARD                              Email : [e-mail]