NetNews Usenet Archive 1992 #26/NN_1992_26.iso/spool/comp/unix/question/13362

Text File | 1992-11-13 | 9.8 KB | 213 lines

Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions
Path: sparky!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!milano!cactus.org!wixer!rhodesia
From: [e-mail] (Felix S. Gallo)
Subject: Re: IS UNIX DEAD? (very long)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: comp.unix.questions
Sender: [e-mail] (Felix S. Gallo)
Organization: Real/Time Communications
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 03:39:23 GMT
Lines: 200

[e-mail] (Paul Prescod) writes:
>>Hey, why doesn't my toaster ask me for confirmation if I press the little
>>bar without inserting any bread?
>
>Try it, it will usually pop up after a few seconds.

Mine popped up after 45 seconds (cheap Korean brand).  In the same
vein, my microwave doesn't ask for confirmation, my light switches
don't ask for confirmation, and my toilet definitely does not ask
"are you sure? (y/n)".

>>>Why is it, in VI that there is no way (I know of) to get help, or exit,
>>>without knowing the exit key?  What doesn't "h" in command mode present
>>>ANY kind of help?
>>
>>Why doesn't my hard drive realize that I didn't really want to delete
>>that data?  Why don't I have a team of ergonomics specialists sitting
>>at my desk doing all my typing by dictation?
>
>Two different things.  Asking for a help key is really not as
>"pampered" as you would make it out.  As far as the hard drive:
>OS/2 and DOS both have reasonably good undelete procedures.  OS/2 just
>copies the file to a temporary directory in the background.

Asking for a help key under Unix is usually very pampered: the standard
Unix suite of tools are a bunch of non-interactive programs that execute
very simple procedures.  Asking for help under vi is not an issue, as
there are implementations of vi that do provide help and a perfectly fine
man page that supplies pointers on every Unix I've ever seen.

My pick-axe does not have a pop up help window.  My laundry basket does
not have a key I can press to get more information.  If I want to learn
how to use real life tools like those, I eye them critically, attempt
sample inputs, view the sample outputs, and if stumped proceed to the
library to research the topic.  More succinctly, the 'help key' for
most Unix programs is 'man Unix_program'.

>>Again, vi is not a drop-in replacement for Microsoft Write.  It's
>>an extremely powerful editor of text files.  If you want to whine,
>>consider asking Microsoft why they don't have a command line in
>>their editors.
>
>Microsoft has a  *PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE* built into word.  I can't
>imagine why someone would prefer a command line to keystrokes
>and requester windows.

Hear me now and believe me later when I tell you that the ability to
type and keep typing is extremely important for people who want to get
work done.  Do I want pop up windows obscuring my text?  Do I want the
overhead of cheesy graphics?  No, thanks.  I'd rather have the ability
to make mass regexp changes quickly and efficiently and to pipe my text
through formatters, compilers and translators.

But then, we're arguing apples and oranges, as I said before.  You can't
do anything useful with a Microsoft Write file except print it, as far
as I can tell, and I haven't printed anything out in about a month.

>>>Why don't Unix "tools" have a convention about help and exit keys AT THE
>>>VERY LEAST.
>>
>>Control-C works for me.  That, or Control-Z kill %1.
>
>And assembly is a high level language..right.  And your programming language
>of choice is binary.

No, assembly is a low level language, C is my favorite programming language,
and control-c is the de facto standard for process interruption on Unix
systems.  The bit about kill %1 was facetious, but everyone who intends to
use Unix seriously should have control-c pretty firmly imbedded in their
minds.

>>Your lack of attentiveness is simply not our problem.  The bottom of
>>every man page I've seen about 'vi' contains a pointer to the actual
>>vi manual.
>
>Would you like me to mail you our man pages or will you take my word for it
>that it says nothing about other man pages.

I'd like you to mail me your man page as well as the version and vendor
of Unix you're talking about.  I am quite confident that the 'see also'
section lists the actual vi manual itself -- which is not necessarily
a man page, since it's involved, large, and complicated.

>
>>>Why do I have 12 function keys on my keyboard that seem to do absolutely
>>>nothing?
>>
>>dumb question is this?  Are you blaming your keyboard manufacturer's
>>ills on Unix, or are you incoherently expecting that Unix assign some
>>sort of meaning to every key assignable?
>
>No it's not a dumb question.  There is no standard for help in the Unix
>world.  The f keys are seldom used in unix programs.  Most terminals
>have f keys.  It would seem this would be a good time to start convincing
>people to use F1 for help, n'est ce pas?

Definitely not.  My keyboard doesn't have an F1 key.  If it did, there
would be no guarantee that it would produce what your F1 key does.
There are good reasons why nobody uses F-keys -- their original purpose
was to be bindable to whatever the user felt appropriate.

> >>>Why doesn't VI use the jkl; keys for cursor movement, since your fingers
>>>are already on them.  Or why not use keys somewhere far from them.  A
>>>person can easily get confused.
>>
>>Whose fingers are already on them?  Not mine.  If you're having a hard
>>time moving your fingers one key away, might I recommend not using
>>a computer?  These things are dangerous.
>
>It's got nothing to do with difficulty.  It has to do with intelligence.
>With 95% of all keyboards having little bumps on the "home" key it makes
>absolutely NO SENSE to use keys one character right of the home keys
>as cursor keys.  None whatsoever.  Espeicially when h could be a help
>key, instead of wasted on the right arrow, when J should be the right
>arrow.

You mean one character left, but you're still terminally unconscious.
Little bumps on the keyboard don't mandate any sort of cursor control
arrangement whatsoever.  It makes perfect sense to not use ; for a
control key -- it's not right of l on all keyboards, for one thing.
It does NOT make perfect sense to have an unshifted help key in the
middle of the goddamn keyboard in an editor people are supposed to use.
Why don't you take some courses on human-computer interaction and
ergonomics and try to get back to Unix later?

>>>Why does VI default to beeping at you when you try to type as opposed to
>>>editing?
>>
>>Because you're Making a Mistake, and vi appropriately tells you so.
>
>Why is typing text into a text editor "a mistake."  VI should default
>to typing mode.  It would 100% or more user friendly, as well as compatible
>with the other 1000 programs out there that claim to be editors.

Typing text into a text editor is a mistake if you type it while in
movement mode.  Similarly, typing text into Microsoft Windows Word is
a mistake if you type it into a dialogue box or onto the desktop.  So?

I'd like to know where you're going to put me into 'typing mode' when
I go to edit a file of code I'm writing.  At the beginning?  How nice.
At the end?  I don't want to see the end of the file.  Where I left off?
Sorry, that's not stored in ascii files.

>>Again, you're confused.  My vi, and every vi I have used, has dealt with
>>too-long lines in a rational manner.  All my vis also have word-wrap,
>>which you would discover if you took the time to read the man page and
>>read the manual listed at the end of the man page.
>
>Sigh.  See above.

If you think vi should default into word-wrap, you're beyond all hope.
People don't just use vi for the reasons you use vi.  That is why it
is minimally configured when you get your fine Unix system.  You configure
it to your own needs by creating a file called '.exrc' in your home
directory and putting appropriate lines in it.  Read the man page for
more information.

Your cries of agony are nonsensical when you admit to not having even
read the man page closely enough.

>>>Is there a wordwrap mode in VI?  And if so, why doesn't it kick in when I
>>>use VI from RN?
>>
>>a) yes.  b) because your .exrc file is not set up correctly.
>
>How often does someone want to edit news without word wrap?  Wouldn't that
>make it logical to put word wrap in the standard .exrc file?

Editting news is not all vi is used for, to let you in on the Big Secret.

>If you launch an editor from VI, that editor should be a wordprocessor.  If
>it is vi, vi should be in wordprocess mode.  If it doesn't, that is a flaw.

I assume that you meant "if you launch an editor from RN."  Pray tell,
how does vi figure out from where it was launched, and whether or not
that program would necessarily need word-wrap on?  Please go on to
inform me how you've determined that I want word-wrap when I write news --
I don't -- and how you've managed to instantiate artificial intelligence
on any other competing system that you're now comparing with Unix?

>If help does nothing at the command prompt.  That is a flaw.

For you, it's a flaw.  For enough other people, it's not.  Your systems
administrator has decided not to add a file that does something at the
prompt.  Contact him for further information.

>If the cursor keys are illogical that is a flaw.

If they were, then it would be.

>Anything can be improved if we discuss the flaws and discuss ways to improve
>them.  If we treat those that notice flaws as blasphemers, we all end up
>using 1970s text editors in 1992, and unix dies.

Programs do not decay.  vi is unchallenged as a small, powerful text editor;
that it was originally written years ago is just not important.
--
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Felix Sebastian Gallo                              [e-mail]
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