home *** CD-ROM | disk | FTP | other *** search
- Newsgroups: talk.abortion
- Path: sparky!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!news.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!garvin
- From: garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin)
- Subject: Re: "Abortion" on a not-pregnant woman
- Message-ID: <BuCzzB.A7.2@cs.cmu.edu>
- Keywords: decay@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (dean.kaflowitz)
- Sender: news@cs.cmu.edu (Usenet News System)
- Nntp-Posting-Host: satan.cimds.ri.cmu.edu
- Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
- References: <nyikos.715729698@milo.math.scarolina.edu> <Bu4qGG.1Ho.2@cs.cmu.edu> <nyikos.715896062@milo.math.scarolina.edu>
- Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 11:01:58 GMT
- Lines: 173
-
- In article <nyikos.715896062@milo.math.scarolina.edu> nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
- #In <Bu4qGG.1Ho.2@cs.cmu.edu> garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin) writes:
- ##In article <nyikos.715729698@milo.math.scarolina.edu> nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
- #
- ###My point went in quite a different direction. Judge Kelly
- ###drafted a proposal that would limit pro-lifers to what kind of picketing
- ###they could do and still be acceptable to him, and proposed that a neutral
- ###party report on "what really goes on in Tiller's clinic," to be
- ###accompanied by Operation Rescue types doing "community service", like
- ###homophobes being made to attend sensitivity training sessions. This was
- ###totally unacceptable to Tiller's lawyers. So far as I know, they would
- ###never let anyone mentioned by Judge Kelly, who so zealously arranged for
- ###arrests and convictions, to see the inside of the clinic.
- #
- ##Do you have any sort of reference for this?
- #
- #Do you require references of people asking questions, and pleading
- #ignorance about the answers to the questions? You are one tough
- #customer, Susan.
-
- No, I'm asking for references for the claims that you made above.
- You didn't ask *any* questions in the paragraph that I quoted.
-
- #Or is your request slightly misplaced and you are referring to "This
- #was totally unacceptable to Tiller's lawyers?" I have two different
- #sources for this, both pro-life, one a book, another a national magazine.
- #I realize these sources aren't worth diddly to you, so I won't even
- #name them, but merely ask whether you have any news of what really
- #happened the day before Kelly was asked on the Phil Donahue show why
- #he abruptly released the "rescuers" from prison and answered
- #"Because the other side pissed me off."
-
- No, I don't get my news from the Phil Donahue show. Are you
- willing to tell us the names of your sources or not?
-
- ###And maybe
- ###not even Kelly himself. Nor any of the marshals.
- #
- ##If you could leave this sort of speculation out, people
- ##wouldn't respond as angrily to your articles. You
- ##have no way of knowing this.
- #
- #Right. That's why I keep asking about it. In the absence of answers,
- #am I not even allowed to say "maybe"?
-
- I think that you should invest a little time in learning the
- difference between a question and a speculation.
-
- ###Of course, you can all go on believing Tiller had nothing embarrassing
- ###to hide.
- #
- ##You've certainly not offered anything to convince me otherwise.
- #
- #Well, I've had so much else to do, I just haven't had the time to
- #present the evidence I have. And, given how skeptical you and your
- #fellow pro-choicers are, it's going to have to be a long, tightly
- #reasoned post. But I'll do my best, and I hope to have something
- #for you by the end of the week.
-
- I'd appreciate it.
-
- ###But his activities, while perhaps legal under Kansas law,
- ###were still of a sort that most ordinary people find repugnant.
- #
- ##I'd find it a lot more repugnant to see the dead bodies of
- ##the women who would be denied abortions by people like
- ##you.
- #
- #Now don't you start misrepresenting me. It's bad enough having
- #Adrienne accuse me of endangering women's lives when I've said
- #over and over again that I have nothing against an abortion done
- #to save the life of a woman.
-
- If you don't allow Dr. Tiller to practice, you're denying
- women abortions. I'm not misrepresenting you, I'm
- merely illustrating the effect of your desires.
-
- ## I'd find it a lot more repugnant to see the shattered
- ##families created when the wife and mother is permanently
- ##physically impaired by a pregnancy that people like you
- ##would force her to carry to term.
- #
- #I've also relaxed my opposition to abortion to where I would
- #allow it if the impairment were as great as the permanent loss of
- #one kidney. But I believe the difference between
- #that and a life-endangering situation is nonexistent in the real
- #world. Does anyone here know otherwise?
-
- I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I would
- suggest that mathematicians are hardly qualified to make
- medical decisions.
-
- ## I'd find it a lot more
- ##repugnant to watch an infant die in pain because you
- ##would insist that it suffered needlessly.
- #
- #I have also said that if not giving abortion means an infant is
- #sentenced to a fate worse than death, I would allow the abortion.
- #I guess that was all before you started paying close attention
- #to my posts.
-
- (I remain grateful that each woman who believes abortion to
- be her best alternative need not clear it with Nyikos first.)
-
- Again, you miss the point. You have inisinuated that Dr. Tiller
- should not be allowed to do the abortions that he does. The
- alternative is that women will be denies abortions. I can
- understand your unwillingness to accept responsibility for
- this.
-
- ##I saw photographs of one of the cancerous tumors they
- ##removed from me. I am not comparing a fetus to the tumor,
- ##understand that. I am saying that the operation and the
- ##results of that operation were disgusting to look at.
- ##On the other hand, I would surely be dead if that operation
- ##had not been performed.
- #
- #When I say "repugnant," I am speaking morally, not esthetically.
- #Sorry if it wasn't clear before.
-
- I was misled by your insistence on a visual.
-
- I don't need to see something to know if I find it morally
- repugnant. I guess you are more limited.
-
- ##You continue to miss that point, though. Many life-saving
- ##operations are hideously ugly.
- #
- #That does not bother me. They are "beautiful" in the moral
- #dimension.
-
- Did you have to see them to reach this conclusion?
-
- ###Perhaps
- ###some pro-choicers here would too, if they saw them, but they never get
- ###the chance.
- #
- ##I would strongly doubt that there is a single person who reads
- ##this group and supports legal abortion who does not know
- ##what a late term fetus looks like, and who can't imagine
- ##what happens when such a fetus is aborted.
- #
- #But some deny that such a fetus suffers terrible agony in many abortions.
-
- That's because there is no proof of this.
-
- ##The abortions done in Dr. Tiller's clinic are tragic, Nyikos.
- ##The alternative to those abortions, though, is even more
- ##tragic to the women who undergo them.
- #
- #That remains to be seen. I guess you missed my post about the woman
- #who, on the evening TV news, went to Kansas to abort a baby "whose
- #brain was not developing properly," and suffered massive hemorrhage
- #as a result of the abortion. I don't recall anyone saying that the
- #anencephalic baby who was born in Florida not long ago had its birth
- #accompanied by massive hemorrhaging.
-
- This is nonsensical. Do you actually believe that all such
- births are without complication? In other words, why do
- you think that your comparison is valid?
-
- #[Don't confuse statements of fact, or speculation, with reproaches. No
- #reason why you should have caught that earlier post.]
- #
- #And people were quite
- #positive that the anencephalic baby was NOT suffering. If they are
- #indeed incapable of suffering, what's the point of aborting them
- #in the first place?
-
- Some people have compassion for the parents, Nyikos.
-
- Susan
-
-