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- Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:22182 alt.atheism:25354
- Path: sparky!uunet!olivea!sgigate!odin!fido!solntze.wpd.sgi.com!livesey
- From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
- Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.atheism
- Subject: Re: Will the -REAL- Christians please stand up? Was: What did Judas be
- Message-ID: <1ijdejINN6mn@fido.asd.sgi.com>
- Date: 8 Jan 93 08:19:31 GMT
- References: <1ia8cnINNpeh@fido.asd.sgi.com> <C0CnAL.CsL@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU> <1iadi5INN1v7@fido.asd.sgi.com> <1993Jan6.043709.29638@hfsi.uucp> <1idq1bINNomj@fido.asd.sgi.com> <1993Jan8.070846.9843@hfsi.uucp>
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-
- In article <1993Jan8.070846.9843@hfsi.uucp>, ata@hfsi.uucp (John Ata - FSO) writes:
- |> In article <1idq1bINNomj@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
- |> >
- |> >To which I replied that this claim was misleading, since Christian
- |> >churches certainly cooperated with Hitler and the Nazis. I thought
- |> >you had been disagreeing with that. Was I wrong?
- |> >
- |> >Are you instead saying that the main denominations *did* cooperate with
- |> >Hitler?
- |> >
- |>
- |> I am saying that a Church's cooperation or lack of cooperation had
- |> nothing to do with how Christian Hitler's values were. The same
- |> goes for his regime.
-
- I'm not paying Mr Ata to say this. He is saying this himself. The
- churches supported Hitler *independent* of his values.
-
- Who else will they support on this basis?
-
- |> And then I am asserting that his regime was not founded on Christian values.
-
- Which is, I'm afraid, a meaningless statement. As a non-Christian, I
- don't pretend to know what "christian values" are. And I certainly
- could not discover them by asking Christians, since they all tell
- different stories.
-
- In fact, I've never yet met a Christian who would undertake to tell
- me what "christian values" are, although, like Mr Ata, quite a number
- of them think that referring to them as though they exist and have a
- definition, is quite OK.
-
- My interest in Christians is in how they affect me, and the society
- in which I live, and to that extent, my external view of "christian
- values" is sinply 'what Christians do".
-
- Christians do all kinds of things, claiming to be acting as Christians,
- and some of those things are downright dangerous to my health. I would
- not, for example, feel comfortable living among the Christians of
- Colorado just at this moment, but I expect that in a few years time
- some future Mr Ata will be telling us not to worry, because the
- Colorado folks just weren't acting according to "christian values"
- back in 1993.
-
- When churches support someone like Hitler, and then try to brush it
- off later with "not our values", I have to conclude that they have
- learned precisely nothing.
-
- jon.
-